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View Full Version : doom3 inspired demon(hell knight)please critique


dreamsunlimited
11-27-2005, 06:56 AM
hello frends
this is my first post in this forum. i am really inspired by the art , style and absolutely everything of doom 3. so i decided to try and create something like those guys. there is a character in doom 3 known as hell knight. i was tryn to make something like that. so i made this model in zbrush. i am planing to make a low poly version of this in 3ds max and then normal mapping it using render to texture in max 7. so kindly critique this model. iwill post the low poly one as soon as possible.

thanks a lot for your time.

here are the links:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2134/demon6re.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9334/demonside3qc.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8348/demonback9tv.jpg

photons
11-27-2005, 08:21 AM
yo Man ()
{
printf("that was totally awesome/n");
}end

mithu
11-27-2005, 11:44 AM
hey mr.dreamzunlimited....ur wrk is very niceeeeeeeeee..goood try that was..keep it up....keep posting..

dreamsunlimited
11-27-2005, 11:47 AM
thanks alot for reply. i will update this work and reply as soon as ican

jfalconer
11-27-2005, 11:52 AM
lookin good so far, keep it up... can't wait to see a lowerpoly version with that as a normal map, should look cool!

dreamsunlimited
11-27-2005, 12:06 PM
thanks a lot man . i also hope to make a low poly version sonn. at present iam experimenting on normal maps. i wonder what is the resolution of normal maps for characters like it used by big games company? thanx a lot any way

jfalconer
11-27-2005, 12:09 PM
I'm not sure what resolution they use everywhere, but the new Unreal engine uses pretty big (I think 1024x1024 or higher). Maya 7's demo of normal-mapping on their site shows the default as 1024x1024, don't know if that is standard tho. :drool:

dreamsunlimited
11-27-2005, 02:57 PM
hello guys

here is the low poly model i've been working for last 4 hours. now iam experimenting the normal mapping part. i know that there are a lot of issues regarding the mesh flow of the model but slowly i will try to make the model correct and animation frendly.

for now poly count is 1270 polys and 1 normal map 1024x1024.

thanks a lot for ur time .
here are the links.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1853/demonnormalmapped2tr.jpg

http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/8856/wire12ik.jpg

http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/183/wire23ka.jpg

Augh
11-27-2005, 03:11 PM
Ok this is probably going to come across as pretty harsh, but imo the model has a problem I'm starting to see more and more; It looks like you built the mesh just to put a normal map on, and spent a looooot more time on the high than the low poly. As a result, it looks very, well, normals mapped.
Now I don't entirely know what I'm talking about, but this strikes me as a pretty wierd way to go about things, I'd still think the low mesh was the really important one, as that's what will be seen still at the end of the day. You have a bunch of polys not doing much for the outline, which looks pretty low res with the normals map applied, those could easily be chopped out and put back into the general shape to help the map look more natural. For the low poly I'd definitely try and focus on the outline, maybe try setting up a strong light behind so that you can see the outline only, to swap to and check every now and then. For the high poly, you might look at the anatomy, particularly in his back, the arms seem sortof bolted on, due to the musculature back there being a little odd, the details look nice, but the overall shapes might benefit from more reference.

I think the overall project is looking nice man, don't get me wrong. But imo with some different focus you could make a big difference to it yknow.

Best o luck :thumbsup:

dreamsunlimited
11-27-2005, 04:03 PM
thanks a lot augh for ur time. i completely agree with u about the issues regarding the low poly model. i will surely do something about them. about the anatomical issues ithink u r again right as i did not used any reference while modeling the high poly in zbrush ,just some in game screenshots.

thanks

tin-tin
11-27-2005, 05:44 PM
I think you can push the hipoly a lot more detail wise, you see you will be supprised how much max can handle poly wise now, I managed to inport a 4 million poly mesh into max.

The hellknight used a 512x512 texture space and its one of the few doom3 models to get a proper zbrushing.

A good start and keep going.

dreamsunlimited
11-28-2005, 01:09 AM
thanks a lot mithu.i will soon post an improved version of the low poly model

dreamsunlimited
11-28-2005, 01:19 AM
thanks alot tin.i dont know now where to put more details and what type of details in the hi poly model.anatomical details or other types of detail?and thanks for the information about the texture size , i wonder what was the poly count used for the in game model of hell knight?

thanks a lot for ur time.

dreamsunlimited
11-28-2005, 02:30 AM
i need to know that how can i post a movie file here. i have a walk cycle of the low poly model waiting at my desktop.:curious:

Augh
11-28-2005, 06:57 AM
http://putfile.com/?

Maybe useful hehe.

dreamsunlimited
11-29-2005, 05:27 AM
here is the walk test of low poly model with the normal map applied.:)

enjoy.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R2T8D9W7

sorry but it may take a little while to download

dreamsunlimited
11-29-2005, 09:27 AM
here is a slightly improved low poly mesh.

critique plssssssss.:sad:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3631/wirenew1vm.jpg

http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/5759/newrender5wx.jpg

at present poly count is 1174 polys.
thanks.

dreamsunlimited
11-30-2005, 02:38 PM
hi guys here is a new render.

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/1801/newrender12yr.jpg

thanks for ur time.

Tweek777
12-01-2005, 02:48 PM
yeah, it looks definately good.

just got a small notice here, the hands, or claws, or whatever, they seem very fat, especially in the last render u posted, his left hand looks very odd.

for the rest, nice, keep it going:thumbsup:

GradiusCancer
12-01-2005, 04:58 PM
Your high detail needs hard edges, and at least medium level detail. High detail (for generating normals) is like painting a texture, without hard edges, it's blurry. Right now, you ahve the most basic forms of definition in place, and they seem appropriete. These are all the details that read at a far level of distance. What you need to do now is work in smaller details, specific muscle definition, character traits, etc. Then you'll be ready for your up-close or small details, not unlike that (noise) bump you have tossed on. For an example of this, follow arshlevon''s hell hound resurrection thread over on polycount:
http://boards.polycount.net/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=79977&page=1&fpart=1&vc=1
From the beginning, you can see he has the basic form and shape, then works in some of the larger details, muscle definition, etc, then the small viens, burn marks, rotting flesh, etc. in to page two.

dreamsunlimited
12-01-2005, 04:58 PM
thanks a lot paul.yup i also notice that his hands are a bit fat i will definately tweek them in size. thanks a lot for ur time .

dreamsunlimited
12-01-2005, 05:05 PM
thanks chris. i really got ur point . earlier i was thinking now what? how much to detail?thanks for that link of that evil dog it will really help me a lot.
thanks a lot.

dreamsunlimited
12-03-2005, 03:30 AM
hello guys now i have started to put some more details on the hi poly model itself in z brush.right now working on legs. here are some pics.:)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/413/d16xt.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2400/d22ap.jpg

thanks

GradiusCancer
12-03-2005, 03:43 AM
Good update, keep it up for the rest.

One thing I noticed from this angle, he has no oblecs (or lower abs for technical human anatomy). I'm not sure how exact you want it, but oblecs are main core muscle for transfering stength between the upper and lower body, and you're character doesn't have them. I suggest researching this area of the body and getting these in or your character might come across as weak even though it's so bulking.

dreamsunlimited
12-03-2005, 04:04 AM
thanks a lot for ur time chris. i will shurely add oblecs on him.:) thanks.

dreamsunlimited
12-03-2005, 07:35 AM
another quick update. ctitique plssssssss.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/8168/detailback12df.jpg


http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3339/diff5hx.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9600/diff19mj.jpg


thanks guys

dreamsunlimited
12-03-2005, 10:20 PM
hi guys. a walk cycle of the low poly.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5X1483XH

thanks.

dreamsunlimited
12-04-2005, 08:27 AM
a little progress.i addede some more details in the high poly model.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5647/detailback33ef.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8154/backcloseup18ab.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6855/backcloseup27bo.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2038/more49kb.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5092/more11jn.jpg

thanks.

GradiusCancer
12-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Coming along nicely, seems like you're getting the details. One thing to beware of is too much detail in certain spots. As in, focal points of the character you want to draw the eye being detailed versus less important areas being a bit more smoothed. For example, the lower legs to the hooves are extremely detailed, drawing the eye to look at them, where as the face is the smoothest, less detailed part of the character.

To me, the whole lower leg area looks like a melted candle, smooth out the hooves(?).
Focus your work on the face, getting a strong character, and emotion conveyed out of him. Though it does seem like you're going for something like a predator mask look here that doesn't have a face. If so, I'd work on strengthening that look, so it appears as a hard metal/bone/etc mask. Character enhancements, such as clothing, straps, cultural adornments, etc are always a huge plus over hulking naked beast. Asymmetry adds a lot more interest to a character while adding a more memorable appearance.

Also checked out your walk cycle. Looks as though he's being sneaky, tip-toeing style walk or some of a raise-the-roof dance step. Being such a beast, try to keep his arms and head stable with big hip to shoulder twists in his walk. Have his feet/legs coming down hard and heavy (not fast) to show he's moving a lot of bulk around in a menacing fashion.

dreamsunlimited
12-04-2005, 04:18 PM
thanks gradius.yup that's what now i decided to do give him a face .yes earlier i decided to give him a smooth face but after so much details now i think that a matching face will suit him better.here what ive come up till now.after the face i will see what can i do about his legs.

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9127/face13pr.jpg

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/1618/face21az.jpg

also one more thing.i have seen here lots of low poly models with around 10,000 to 12,000 polys. is this poly range ok for games. if yes then i have also decided to beef my low poly version to around 10,000 polys to give it a more smothed look. what do you say? can i import the low res model from z brush it self and use it as the low res model on which i will put the normal map? if iam making some sense then please answer.

here is what i mean?
here is a low poly model just imported from z brush and has around 10,000 polys. is this ok for next gen games?

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/188/demon1dk.jpg

thanks.

GradiusCancer
12-04-2005, 05:08 PM
Technically, there's “ok” versus “what you need”. Sure you can pump 10k into a 3k mesh, but it will be wasteful. The average hobbyist will praise you for using a lot of polygons, where as a veteran professional will praise your work for using less triangles and looking the same.

Games like HL2 and D3 use anywhere from around 3000 to 10,000 triangles (more or less) depending on how the character is viewed in game. NPCs being lower, major characters being higher. For most game engines I've worked with, models are rendered once per material. Thus a character with a normal, spec and color map that is 3000 triangles is very similar to a 9000 triangle character with a diffuse texture.

Based on your character's design and silhouette, I'd say he's a 3000 triangle or less model. Again a lot of this is based on how the character is presented in game. You can get away with a much lower triangle mesh when using normal maps because (for one, that's what they are for) the normals generate lighting information simulating a high detail mesh. If you're using this character as more of a learning exercise try to keep it lower. If it's portfolio material you may want to go higher just for awe and wow factor, but then if it's for portfolio I'd also suggest adding a LOT more to the design and character.

For as the smoothed look question, more polygons doesn't necessarily mean a smoother model so much as it means the artist doesn't know how to use their polygons within a limitation. To practice this, be sure all your edge lines flow smoothly around the mesh, place and move lights around your character to see how it renders, and spend a lot of time making sure your low poly mesh's silhouette is as smooth as possible with as little polygons. The way I like to do this is render my mesh completely black (lighting on with no lights in scene and a bright background).

I could almost publish a book titled "my replies to this thread". :P

F3D
12-04-2005, 06:45 PM
the Imp in doom3 is around 1500 tris I belive.
Im sure that the hell knight isnt much over 2000 either, why would you go as far as 10.000, where all you've got is a undetailed blob? take it down to tops 3000 tris, and apply the normal map, and you've got what youre probably looking for. 10.000, woah!

TheRedemption
12-05-2005, 05:12 AM
heh yeah the hellknight is around 2700 so i think 3000 would be a reasonable goal. while modeling ive found that i generally have tons of extra poly, then i just go nuts with the collapse feature.

tin-tin
12-05-2005, 08:20 AM
The trick with normalmap is to concentrate on the silhouette of a model, experiment with couple of lods. This model is bare so, polywise dont push it too much. If I remember the hellnight didn't use a heightmap in doom3 but in doom3 resurection there is addition of it, adding finer details and also the map size went from 512x512 to 1024x1024, so I guess graphics hardware is better now.

example below.

dreamsunlimited
12-05-2005, 10:46 AM
thanks a lot all of you guys.:thumbsup:
i think i will stick with the 1500-3000 poly range cause if id guys modeled the hell knight in just 2700 polys and it looked really fantastic i think 10000 polys will shurely be a waste.
more updates coming soon.

thanks a lot for ur time guys i really appreciate it.

GradiusCancer
12-05-2005, 02:37 PM
Check out the SDKs for Quake 4, Doom3, FEAR, etc for reference. For example, I'm looking at the q4 player model now, and it's under 1900 triangles.

dreamsunlimited
12-09-2005, 07:27 AM
hello frends

heres a simple walk of the beast with the first pass of texture.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9PIZAY9T

thanks

dreamsunlimited
12-10-2005, 10:52 AM
heres another render and a little animation of the beast just standing and suddenly aaaaahhhhhhggggrrrr. :)
image
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/8104/new9by.jpg

animation
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZUKIX28W
901 kb

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PH45RSRV
338 kb

thanks a lot.

dreamsunlimited
12-11-2005, 08:59 AM
gave him a tounge. hope you can see it. please see it and reply.
animation
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OA22N4JA
671 kb

thanks.

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