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d0up
11-23-2005, 09:23 AM
Hi!
Sorry, for the long title of the thread, but i thought that it was necesary... :deal: Well, i think that the title is quite self-explanatory...

Actually I'm willing to start to do some work for my game demoreel, but I have a great problem. I don't know how much polygons use, and how much textures, etc... I don't know which are the "standards" right now.

Well, I know that this budgets are quite close with the engine and the tipe of game as well as the hardware. So, it would be nice if those who work in the industry could give us some hints at which limitations we must work.

So for the hardware i think that this are the main ones:
* Pc gaming: low, mid & high-end?
* Consoles: Xbox 360, Ps3, Revolution
* Portables: PSP, DS (Ngage, Cell-phones, gp32, gp2x?)

Aboute genres: Fighting, First Person Shooters, MMOG, Racing, RPG, Real time strategy, Sports, ...

Uhmm, and maybe it would be nice also to define the type of objects that must be modeled. Main characters, secondary, props, environment...

So, my idea is to edit this post and update it with your contributions, so we can have an idea of wich are the limitation when we want to model for certain platform. In the end we should have a nice list with all the "standard" budgets.

I hope this works out well...
(sorry my messy english... hihihi :rolleyes: )

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(right now is just an example, as people contribute i'll update it)
last update: 23 / 11 / 2005
...
XBOX 360:
NOTE: AS MENTIONED ABOVE IS JUST AN EXAMPLE
* FPS:
Main characters (head and body) - polycount: 10000 quad. textures: 2 x 2048 RGBA, normal map, specular
Props - polycount: min. 400 quad. - max. 1500 quad. textures: 1x 256 RGBA (depends what u want, special texture is 512 tileable texture is 128 or 256), normal map, specular and detailtexture
* RTS:
...
NINTENDO DS:
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, i don't know if it's a good idea, or even if this budget thing can be defined so exactly. So, please, give me your opinion. :) I think that we can get some aproximated numbers.

Maybe another good idea would be to put known budgets of certain games. If you know any games budget i could put it on the list. :)

edit: it would nice to know also some especific limitations of the hardware, as well as available techniques. Example: in this hardware normal maps, specular and difusse ones are used extensivelly... Or this hardwares textures alpha are only 1bit and uses 16bit textures, Or palete textures... etc...

Thanx and bye! :thumbsup:

Digitalwerk
11-23-2005, 11:38 AM
mhm all i can tell is

* FPS:
Main characters (head and body) - polycount: 10000 quad. textures: 2 x 2048 RGBA, normal map, specular
Props - polycount: min. 400 quad. - max. 1500 quad. textures: 1x 256 RGBA (depends what u want, special texture is 512 tileable texture is 128 or 256), normal map, specular and detailtexture

peterwoodsy
11-23-2005, 05:49 PM
Thanks d0up just the sort oif thing i need wicked

Um soz for being a newb HausArafnai get what ya mean by the other sort of maps but whats a diff between a Difuse map and a Detail texture map ??

Anyway wicked thread will be checking in most regurallary :)

jason500
11-23-2005, 06:57 PM
Great thread. Hope it gets a lot of response.

I also want to start working on my potfolio, but aren't sure how many poly's I can use.
It's probably best to make characters for next gen consoles/computers, as that's what will be needed in future.

ML
11-23-2005, 07:07 PM
Great thread :)
I'm interested to know what the polycount for NFS: MW's cars are. Models look very detailed.

d0up
11-23-2005, 10:27 PM
hey! thanx for the answers, even if we don't have any number yet. :) Well, there is the first post. Thanx. ;)

HausArafna: Thanks, but i'll like to know just few things. When you say 10000 quad. you mean tris, i'm ok? Or it's 20000 tris? Also, i'll like to know what an especial and detail textures are. :shrug: Also, for which platform are those specs. Consoles? :)
(sorry for the too much questions, i'm just trying to make it ok)

ML: Yep, it would be cool to have specific games polycounts. So I think that we'll have two lists. One with the "standards" for every platform/genre. And then the list of games with specific polycounts used in those games.

note: i've just remembered the unreal 3 tech demo, they spoke about polycounts on there, while they showed some tech demos... i'll have to watch it again. x)

bye!! ;)

jason500
11-27-2005, 08:16 PM
well, this went well... :rolleyes:

d0up
11-27-2005, 09:34 PM
Yep, really well. If you think that death is a good state. :buttrock:
Ok, i thought that it was a good idea... :shrug:

WAcky
11-27-2005, 10:51 PM
its a great idea. there are so many little (not even secret) tips that need to be used when doing art for ps2 and psp and so forth that we all really want to know and there are a few users out there that know alot about it.


i really really really want to know alot more about making art for these platforms but i just cant find any good documentation or any kind of guides about it around.


Anyone?

PhilOsirus
11-27-2005, 10:55 PM
It would be nice if CGSociety had a CG.wiki section. The wiki format can be such great help, I don't understand how come there is no such thing yet. Instead of losing information in forums, it would be archived and editable.

nibbuls
11-27-2005, 11:06 PM
This is such a great idea for a thread! I wish I knew something about developing for consoles.

WAcky
11-27-2005, 11:49 PM
It would be nice if CGSociety had a CG.wiki section. The wiki format can be such great help, I don't understand how come there is no such thing yet. Instead of losing information in forums, it would be archived and editable.

awesome idea

d0up
11-28-2005, 06:48 AM
yeah, great idea!

But it should be defined a bit for what would the wiki be. I mean, my idea with this thread was to gain information for game development (and really a small aspect of it), a wiki would be a more big thing. Not just game development, it would have all other aspects of cg. It would be the ultimate knowledge source for cg. mwahahahaha! :thumbsup:

(and that maybe is a problem for some people, as if you give the knowledge for free, some people may look it as a threat)(remember the ultimate knowledge) mwahahaha.

But, if we can't have some numbers for polylcounts... what about a wiki? :-/ Can we manage that? :O

Anyway, i think that it's a great idea. It just needs some little development (what is for... why... how... structure... etc...) and go for it.
Finally, ask to cgsociety. Make a dirty proposal. :bounce:
(this last is literally translated from spanish, so i don't know if it has the same meaning, hihihi)

Ok, so how can we do it? ;)

(later, i'll post my thoughts on it, now i don't have too much time)

Omita
11-29-2005, 03:45 AM
The truth... and polycounts. I used to ask this question a lot and the truth is that there is no such number for a consol. Each consol has X amount of RAM and Y amount of VRAM. And then you have to decide if you want to waste CPU on Compression and lots of other little facts. Depending on the technology you are using the game, and the game design you will decide on what polycount, texture resources and animation resources. So in short, don't obsess about polycounts until you get a project.

As far as advice, if you can make something look better with less then you are fine. If you are doing normal mapping you are proving that you can make hi-poly models. Personally, I prefer artist that can make great art in a timely fashion.

I have worked on PSP and the Nintendo DS and both are pretty easy to find a rough goal. Basically, PSP is Playstation 1.5. So just take a look at PS1 and PS2 games and average them between the two. The only other real quirk is that you don't have any shading on PSP. The resolution is 480x272, so you want a model to look good when its render in that space. Polygon-wise it can crunch though a lot, but it doesn't have all that much VRAM. So knowing how break up texture or be really efficient with texture is key.

I actually have far more experience with DS and I think its pretty cool, even though its less powerful in some respects. Again, very little VRam, but two screens at 256x192. So textures are very precious, there is lots of palletizing going on behind the scenes. You also can't push nearly as many polygons. DS is basically N64 Specs but more VRAM. Again, you can look at some of the Christmas titles.

For a portfolio I would recommend making a single character at multiple LOD's to start. Show that you can make the same character at a bunch or resolutions and you will cover your bases as well as learn what polygons are needed and what ones are wasteful. Always make sure that you zoom out and render your work at actual resolution. Don't worry about a perfectly textured face if in the end the face is only 10 pixels tall.

So, no one is going to have actual numbers because very few games are alike and different technologies will require different resources even on the same platform. What makes a great consol programmer or artist is an individual who can take very little and make something that is amazing (not to mention timely). As a technical artist, even when I start a game and give the artist their budgets they are still "theoretical" numbers. They are honestly just ball park figures based on all the data I can gather from Game Design, Programming and the Concept artist, and there are still unknowns.

Anyway.. hope that helps.

WAcky
11-29-2005, 04:30 AM
For a portfolio I would recommend making a single character at multiple LOD's to start. Show that you can make the same character at a bunch or resolutions and you will cover your bases as well as learn what polygons are needed and what ones are wasteful. Always make sure that you zoom out and render your work at actual resolution. Don't worry about a perfectly textured face if in the end the face is only 10 pixels tall.
Anyway.. hope that helps.

this helps alot

d0up
11-29-2005, 06:57 AM
Thanx omita, usefull information. :) You have answered one of the main question of the first post... the engine is what matters. And the ability of the artist to push the limitations. So, it seems that we must stop searching the holly grial of polycounts. Then, let's go for the good looking ultra low model. :D

I'll try to do a character with different LODS. Hahaha, now i'll have to decide which limitations to use and what polycounts. Well, it doesn't matter. :)

A low one inspired by: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=263243
A high poly one inspired by the unreal 3 tech demo...
A mid one between them...

Should i do a more wide range of models?

Anyway, even if we don't have the polycount thing, one interesting idea was written here, CG-wiki. What do you think about it? (new thread for this?)

edit: It would be cool to know the secret & dark arts of optimizing, Omita, you talk about paletizing. I can make an idea, but i don't know what you're talking about. Use the same texture for various models, changing the palette colors?? Or what's that? :)

veteehrri
11-29-2005, 12:05 PM
Really nice info here. Awesome thread.

nbojana
11-30-2005, 12:12 AM
edit: It would be cool to know the secret & dark arts of optimizing, Omita, you talk about paletizing. I can make an idea, but i don't know what you're talking about. Use the same texture for various models, changing the palette colors?? Or what's that? :)
It's about reducing the number of colors in texture file, for example, turning 16 million colors texture into 256 colors file. This is necessary for texture compression for some formats. For example, in UT99 you had to convert the textures to 8-bit RGB image in .pcx format, which means you are only allowed to have 256 different colors in this file.

whooosh
11-30-2005, 06:19 AM
For the game I'm working on for the Xbox 360

Our foreground characters are typically 5-6000 TRIs. 2x2048RGBA, 2X2048 NormalMap, 2x1024 specmaps, and 2x1024 "Subsurface Scatter maps"

BG characters: 2000 Tris 2x1024 and 2 x 1024 normalmap. 2x1024Spec.

Our lead character artist paints his normal maps, so we don't have to model Hi Res characters. He uses purty normal map colors to paint.

On screen polygon count is 500,000-700,000 Tris MAX at any given time to have acceptable frame rate.

SPIDER2544
11-30-2005, 06:32 AM
For the game I'm working on for the Xbox 360

Our lead character artist paints his normal maps, so we don't have to model Hi Res characters. He uses purty normal map colors to paint.


wow that sounds really intersting, not to get to far off topic, but how exactly does he do that could you give a few examples or perhaps a bit more indepth explanation of how he can paint them instead of modeling them

d0up
11-30-2005, 06:53 AM
Hoho,

I thought that paletizing was a more andvanced thing, i mean after having an 8bit image tweaking it for a darker purpose... anyway surelly it's a challenge to make it work all together with the hardware limitations. About the specs for that xbox 360 game, thanks! I think that i'll take those for my high-poly model. x)

As spider has asked, what about painted normal maps? Is your lead character artist painting height maps and later converting them to normal maps (via nvidia plugin for example) in photoshop? Maybe Zbrush? :-/ Any details would be really interesting. X)

Bye!!

Bloodsbane
11-30-2005, 11:10 PM
Some average counts from Quake 4, according to modwiki.net (http://www.modwiki.net/wiki/Modelling). Everything in tris.




1st Person Weapon Total: 2000 - 2800

Both Arms: 1300
Weapon (Faces not visible deleted): 700 - 1500

3rd Person Player Total: 2500


Player Body(Without Gun or Head): 1500
Player Head: 600
Player Head_up (high LOD model?): 800
Player World Weapon: 200-400

Nazeil
11-30-2005, 11:25 PM
well for the MMOG I've been working on we have a little bit tighter budget then a lot of those xbox360 games, but then we have to anticipate thousand of people interacting all at once.


Characters:

It varies. Generally between 3-6k tris, with 1-2 512 diffuse, spec, and normal

Environments:

Huge variance depending on what is necessary...obviously a castle needs more poly love than a tent does. A single mesh can't ever go above 14k tris, although we have many instances where a single building is made of several meshes. Textures vary since we take a shader approach to texturing. In most cases 2-8 shaders are used, it really just depends on what it is you're making. (most shaders are 256 or 512, rarely 1024 and only then when its for a huge poi you can see from 2km away.)

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