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Ryan-B
11-14-2005, 12:01 AM
Government officials point to British Columbia as an example of where specialized workers are urgently needed.

Some games manufacturers in that province say they're desperate to attract upwards of 1,000 computer software engineers skilled in graphics software.

In that case, Canada could try to recruit using gaming publications.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051113.wcanada1113/BNStory/National/

enygma
11-14-2005, 12:29 AM
Well, it would be nice to have a thriving CG industry here in Canada if the artists weren't so eager to hit up California for all it's worth.

KolbyJukes
11-14-2005, 01:07 AM
NEVER! I'll never go BACK! ....ah well, maybe I will.

I know a lot of americans that have wanted to move to Canada, but have been deterred by the high income tax and low wages (esp. in BC).

-K.

mummey
11-14-2005, 01:13 AM
I consider my Vancouver escape plan a last-resort. :)

kiaran
11-14-2005, 02:04 AM
This article seems to be speaking directly to me.

I live in Vancouver, but work for a company in San Rafael CA and will probably move to CA eventually. Canada is great, but it needs better freaking weather!

enygma
11-14-2005, 03:16 AM
NEVER! I'll never go BACK! ....ah well, maybe I will.

I know a lot of americans that have wanted to move to Canada, but have been deterred by the high income tax and low wages (esp. in BC).

-K.
Good point. I remember meeting with the producer at Aurenya in Calgary. While they were showing me sheets with what union wages are and stuff, one of the people that I talked to that worked there was making crap for wages. Their website has since gone down, so I can only assume that the company has as well, which is unfortunate.

DevilHacker
11-14-2005, 03:51 AM
Work in Canada? Nope. Wages not high enough, and I don’t like the fact that you end up paying more in the form of taxes to help support everyone else’s health care…


Now, I am still considering owning a retirement home one day up north, maybe Canada…
:D

Saurus
11-14-2005, 05:16 AM
In Vancouver, it’s software engineers they are looking for, not artist. Unless you are senior artist position... there are plenty of artists here. I work with a lot of people from the US and Brits, so it’s pretty easy to attract foreigners. Even with the high tax, they love it here. I know a couple who are becoming Canadians. Another thing that attracts people is the more laid back schedule here. This is even more so in the Effects industries when compared to other areas.

Work in Canada? Nope. Wages not high enough, and I don’t like the fact that you end up paying more in the form of taxes to help supporteveryone else’s health care…


If you have a talent, companies like EA in Burnaby can compete with any company. I myself don't mind paying higher tax for supporting everyone else's health care and other social service. I just don't like where the rich have the best health care and if you are the have not, then too bad.

Dirtystimpy
11-14-2005, 05:19 AM
I know a lot of americans that have wanted to move to Canada, but have been deterred by the high income tax and low wages (esp. in BC).

-K.

and Higher beer prices

PhilOsirus
11-14-2005, 06:21 AM
What's the problem with taxes and salaries when the living standards are good?

SheepFactory
11-14-2005, 06:50 AM
What's the problem with taxes and salaries when the living standards are good?

Exactly.

i would much rather live in canada then US , visited a couple weeks ago and it was just beautiful up there. Here is hoping more productions take place in Canada.

gwilson
11-14-2005, 09:23 AM
Canada's health care system is one of the key things attracting companies to set up here. It's a huge saving especially if the company needs to attract highly educated employees who expect it to pick up the tab.

danimat0r
11-14-2005, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by Phil "Osirus"
What's the problem with taxes and salaries when the living standards are good?



Taxes and salaries drive the comparitive living standard down. You make less, you keep less, taxes are high on everyone, which means prices on everything are higher. Very few artists who want to make the big money stay in Canada. But with California's taxes, I'm surprised the industry there has grown as large as it has.

hentsteph
11-14-2005, 02:12 PM
and Higher beer prices

US beer is so watered down it does not taste beer anymore. I'd pay more anytime for good beer...

smoothoperator
11-14-2005, 02:33 PM
US beer is so watered down it does not taste beer anymore. I'd pay more anytime for good beer...

I second that motion! Beer in Montreal tastes...mmmm..sooo good. The beer in the states is for amatuers. :)

Byla
11-14-2005, 02:43 PM
What's the problem with taxes and salaries when the living standards are good?


EXACTLY!!!

Canada seems to be like a mix european american way of life and that is, in my opinion, good. I would rather earn 50 % less and have social/health insurance and be able to have family in a save and healthy enviroment.

Slurry
11-14-2005, 02:50 PM
Good point. I remember meeting with the producer at Aurenya in Calgary. While they were showing me sheets with what union wages are and stuff, one of the people that I talked to that worked there was making crap for wages. Their website has since gone down, so I can only assume that the company has as well, which is unfortunate.

They are called New Machine now. I don't think their business practices have changed though. They use a lot of student labour for free.

CosyTo
11-14-2005, 03:05 PM
The contrast between Europe and the US is indeed very high at this point! Don't know about Canada though ...

Perhaps it's a bit to much over here, but honestly, I like it. Taxes are high and you pay to all kinds of instances but the safety net you get in return is huge. I don't think many people will argue if I say the living standard in Europe is pretty high...
Please, don't get me starting on Belgian beer! Beyond comparison! :beer: ;)

Dirtystimpy
11-14-2005, 03:41 PM
US beer is so watered down it does not taste beer anymore. I'd pay more anytime for good beer...

lol...you are crazy. I like canadian beer too, but I think $55 dollars for a 24pack is insane..even a six pack is at least $12


Canada is cool, glad I got to work there and not have to move there, more of a tourist town to me.



but as for canadas healthcare system..growing up in the tip of N. Idaho, a canadian told me that when any canadian needed a major operation, they would go to the states...yes healthcare is free, but not very good, is what he told me....I hope he was crazy

kees
11-14-2005, 03:42 PM
Wages not high enough, and I don’t like the fact that you end up paying more in the form of taxes to help support everyone else’s health care…



Lets speak again when you become disabled by some drunk driver where the accident was out of your control. Lets see how much you are willing to beg for health care support from the government then...

Besides, if you so strongly believe in the 'everyone-for-themselves' attitude, they have a conservative party in Canada too. (Which is fine btw, its your right to vote for whatever you feel works best for you).


-Kees

mummey
11-14-2005, 03:51 PM
Lets speak again when you become disabled by some drunk driver where the accident was out of your control. Lets see how much you are willing to beg for health care support from the government then...

Besides, if you so strongly believe in the 'everyone-for-themselves' attitude, they have a conservative party in Canada too. (Which is fine btw, its your right to vote for whatever you feel works best for you).


-Kees

One could make the argument, "Why was there a drunk on the road?" but like you said, there are liberals and conservatives in any nation.

Craiger
11-14-2005, 04:13 PM
lol...you are crazy. I like canadian beer too, but I think $55 dollars for a 24pack is insane..even a six pack is at least $12


Canada is cool, glad I got to work there and not have to move there, more of a tourist town to me.



but as for canadas healthcare system..growing up in the tip of N. Idaho, a canadian told me that when any canadian needed a major operation, they would go to the states...yes healthcare is free, but not very good, is what he told me....I hope he was crazy


Ha. more like 35 bucks for a 24. Yeah... i dig the "town" of Canada too.

MikeRhone
11-14-2005, 04:31 PM
Ah..., some uplifting reading there! It wuold be nice to see a rise in jobs in back home. Im back next month, so if there are any big jumps in positions, Ill let everynoe know!

Personally, I feel a few Vancouver studios have a lot to learn on the human resources side of things. I have worked in Vancuouver for most of my cg career, and it still shock me how local studios treat job applicants. Compaines elsewhere (London and L.A. in particular) tend to be much more personable... Regardless of the size of thier studio. Not only do many of them write back personally, often they will even put you in touch with rival studios. It's nice when you recieve a reply that says "Right now we are starting pre-production on *blank* and *blank* projects. In about 3 months time we will have a need for modelers and animators." Its a win-win situation for studios... I know they got my reel, and I send a heads up to all my good modeller and animator buddies to get thier reel in.

Wages may be higher elsewhere, but when it comes down to it, it is more about the freindliness and enjoying where I work than the money.

m

**Side note: This rant only deals with the application process! I have only ever had GREAT experiences with studios I have worked at. There are a couple of other ones that I wont send another reel to, however.

unchikun
11-14-2005, 05:30 PM
Canada's health care system is one of the key things attracting companies to set up here. It's a huge saving especially if the company needs to attract highly educated employees who expect it to pick up the tab.

I would say the health care system is an indirect deterrent for a company to setup shop in Canada due to high taxes and strict labour laws. In fact for companies to do business in Canada there is often a huge government tax incentive. A few years ago hollywood threatened to leave British Columbia unless unions backed off labour rules.

As far as health care goes, there is a significant shortage of doctors and health personel in Canada (many going to the states). The wait times to see a specialist can be several months (people have died waiting in some cases). Due to the limitations of universal health care there is growing demand for private health for those willing to pay more.

In fact Quebec was allowed to implement limited private health care due to a lack of timely service to patients:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051111.wxquebec11/BNStory/National/

Globally the issue of public health care in conjunction with a growing aging popultion will put a severe strain on social based systems.

enygma
11-14-2005, 05:59 PM
Well, needless to say, I have my issues regarding the health care system. Free... yes. Efficient... no, and not many liberal Canadians really share my view on what should happen with our healthcare.

Basically... make it 2 tier. Get the rich people out of the everybody lines... :D

My son waited almost a year to see a urologist. Maybe 11 months because we were to get a urologist when he was born due to a slight issue in his urinary development. After we see the urologist... we see him for about 10 minutes only to find out it may be about 6 months before he can get in for surgery. It has been about 7 months now and haven't heard back from them yet. My boy is now just over 16 months old.

Another interesting story back when I was in high school. Here in Calgary, we have 3 hospitals. A man came into one hospital with a pain in his stomach. Really... it was an appendix issue. He was pretty much on the edge. Found out there would almost be a full day of wait time at the one hospital. He ended up travelling to the other 2 hospitals and met with the same results. He ended up dying that day. Made news and was probably one of the many things sparking the debate for two-tierd health care system.

As for my son, at least the issue isn't an imminent threat, so I can manage the wait, on top of having to wait anyways because I can't afford to go elsewhere for healthcare.

As another note. Once in a while, there is an article on the news about a child with a rare disease that costs the government $10,000 a week for treatment. :eek:

So yah... it is great we have free healthcare. A trip to the doctor is rather painless on the wallet and my childs birth cost me nothing in hospital fees, but sometimes, it just really gets on my nerves.

danimat0r
11-14-2005, 06:16 PM
Another interesting story back when I was in high school. Here in Calgary, we have 3 hospitals. A man came into one hospital with a pain in his stomach. Really... it was an appendix issue. He was pretty much on the edge. Found out there would almost be a full day of wait time at the one hospital. He ended up travelling to the other 2 hospitals and met with the same results. He ended up dying that day. Made news and was probably one of the many things sparking the debate for two-tierd health care system.

As for my son, at least the issue isn't an imminent threat, so I can manage the wait, on top of having to wait anyways because I can't afford to go elsewhere for healthcare.

As another note. Once in a while, there is an article on the news about a child with a rare disease that costs the government $10,000 a week for treatment. :eek:

So yah... it is great we have free healthcare. A trip to the doctor is rather painless on the wallet and my childs birth cost me nothing in hospital fees, but sometimes, it just really gets on my nerves.


These sorts of stories are incredibly common. My wife's grandfather died because due to money/time restrictions on the hospitals, he underwent a cancer diagnosis that was only intended to catch the most common types. ie.) the cheapest possible diagnosis process. Whoops. His type of cancer slipped under their radar, and he promptly died. :sad: For seriously ill Canadians, our health care system is turning into a death sentence. 'Free?" Sure, I guess so. If by "free" you mean they hide the cost in what they extract directly from your paycheck so you don't spend time thinking about it. And with all the hassles my wife's had with Canadian hospitals, she's flatly stated she doesn't want to be having kids here; and I can't say I blame her.

Frankly, I'd rather have my money and a private or 2-tier system. At the rate it's declining, in a few years, I'm not sure we'll have any choice.

Slurry
11-14-2005, 06:23 PM
lol...you are crazy. I like canadian beer too, but I think $55 dollars for a 24pack is insane..even a six pack is at least $12


Canada is cool, glad I got to work there and not have to move there, more of a tourist town to me.



but as for canadas healthcare system..growing up in the tip of N. Idaho, a canadian told me that when any canadian needed a major operation, they would go to the states...yes healthcare is free, but not very good, is what he told me....I hope he was crazy

$55?

You got hosed my friend. Or maybe you bought really expensive beer, like Guiness (yummmmm)

The health care is fine up here too. The only time people go to the states for medical attention is when the wait is too long (which can be a problem here) and if they can or are willing to afford the US treatment.

Art

Saurus
11-14-2005, 06:29 PM
Yes, the health system needs revamping, but I’m still opposed to two tier system. Over the years the system has been gutted by anal politicians, and needs to be cleaned up. I don’t like the idea of getting better service because you have money. I make pretty good money, and I am willing to pay more taxes to get a better the system. It’s our system and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Vancouver has always been voted by UN as the top 3 in quality of life in the world…high tax is the price of getting good quality of life!

rcronin
11-14-2005, 06:56 PM
The problem with Canadians leaving is...
Hollywood comes to Vancouver to save money. Stronger American dollar plus tax incentives = savings. It's a secondary market. Non-blockbuster and TV effects can be done here no problem.
Unfortunately Canadian companies don't charge LA rates. This trickles down to the artists. Salaries are lower. Same as in the U.K. Yes, senior positions in Canada can still command industry salaries but your average artist struggles...until they are offered double by a U.S. company.
Not only that, the allure of feature films and working with the best talents in the world is the other half of the package. I equate us to actors sometimes. Where is the center of the universe when it comes to production? California. Who could turn it down?
What we need... is an animation company that is on par with these studios in LA. Not a "budget factory". We need an ILM, a Pixar, a Sony. We need 3 things to draw talent. 1. Well written/designed movies 2. Proper wages/budgets 3. Good work environment.
If I had a million dollars...

hentsteph
11-14-2005, 07:24 PM
These sorts of stories are incredibly common. My wife's grandfather died because due to money/time restrictions on the hospitals, he underwent a cancer diagnosis that was only intended to catch the most common types. ie.) the cheapest possible diagnosis process. Whoops. His type of cancer slipped under their radar, and he promptly died. :sad: For seriously ill Canadians, our health care system is turning into a death sentence. 'Free?" Sure, I guess so. If by "free" you mean they hide the cost in what they extract directly from your paycheck so you don't spend time thinking about it. And with all the hassles my wife's had with Canadian hospitals, she's flatly stated she doesn't want to be having kids here; and I can't say I blame her.

Frankly, I'd rather have my money and a private or 2-tier system. At the rate it's declining, in a few years, I'm not sure we'll have any choice.

I'm sory for your lost, I also had a friend who died of leukaemia two years ago.

But in the states how many die because they can not aford health care. We don't hear about their stories because they are poor...

skurge13
11-14-2005, 07:56 PM
The problem with Canadians leaving is...
What we need... is an animation company that is on par with these studios in LA. Not a "budget factory". We need an ILM, a Pixar, a Sony. We need 3 things to draw talent. 1. Well written/designed movies 2. Proper wages/budgets 3. Good work environment.
If I had a million dollars...

Yeah, I agree. I really thought that would have happened by now, the talent is certainly here. But I guess that was just me being overly optimistic. I suppose it would most likely take a very good Canadian businessman with loads of guts and financial connections to do it. What does a cg movie cost these days? 30, 35 million minimum? Ugh, I wish I had taken business instead of computer courses in college back in the day....and had money to invest in the dot com boom. Ah well, we all wish we had a wayback machine.

apoc519
11-14-2005, 09:00 PM
they're doing The Wild at CORE FA and Yankee Irving at IDT Toronto. Both major animated movies

EricLyman
11-14-2005, 09:10 PM
There are a couple of other ones that I wont send another reel to, however.

You won't indulge us...? Lets hear about 'em!

rcronin
11-14-2005, 09:25 PM
Well..
The problem is that Canadian companies have the same problem . They build'em up, start being successful. US gets a whiff of them, knocks on their door with a plate of millions. Boom sold. Guaranteed that if one started an animation company here in Canada that became anywhere near competitive with hollywood - it'd be bought out. We love da cash here eh!

soulburn3d
11-14-2005, 10:36 PM
Not only that, the allure of feature films and working with the best talents in the world is the other half of the package. I equate us to actors sometimes. Where is the center of the universe when it comes to production? California. Who could turn it down? What we need... is an animation company that is on par with these studios in LA. Not a "budget factory". We need an ILM, a Pixar, a Sony.

That's the #1 reason I'm in the US. It has nothing to do with the money certainly, yes, you get paid more in California, but with a 2 bedroom townhouse in a decent neighborhood going for $700,000-900,000 US, I hardly consider that an incentive.

It's as simple as where the coolest work is being done. There's Pixar in California, there's ILM in California, wanna work on the Matrix? That was done in San Francisco.

If Canada wants to keep people or attract people back, they should look to New Zealand as an example. You have a small country with a smallish population, but they get a huge project, a chance for people to work on a property that most of them have loved since childhood, and look at all the talent they managed to attract. Canada needs their own "Lord Of The Rings" if they want to compete, yes, money and benefits are nice, but they need some huge project that's a once in a lifetime sort of opportunity and I'm sure they'll persuade a lot of people to return.

- Neil

asparapani
11-15-2005, 12:16 AM
Among the issues of canadians wanting to come back to Canada.

-Income tax. High tax does not make it a popular destination for international artists.
-Salary. Low salaries compared to US,UK,Australia...
-Sustainable industry. Companies come and go in Canada. That's the unfortunate reality. Unless you are into games, then it can be quite stable. However for the cinema industry, it's the opposite.

I was going to mention the weather but we would re-adapt to the cold winter months( X-montrealer speaking...)

My two cents

asparapani
11-15-2005, 12:23 AM
That's the #1 reason I'm in the US. It has nothing to do with the money certainly, yes, you get paid more in California, but with a 2 bedroom townhouse in a decent neighborhood going for $700,000-900,000 US, I hardly consider that an incentive.

It's as simple as where the coolest work is being done. There's Pixar in California, there's ILM in California, wanna work on the Matrix? That was done in San Francisco.

If Canada wants to keep people or attract people back, they should look to New Zealand as an example. You have a small country with a smallish population, but they get a huge project, a chance for people to work on a property that most of them have loved since childhood, and look at all the talent they managed to attract. Canada needs their own "Lord Of The Rings" if they want to compete, yes, money and benefits are nice, but they need some huge project that's a once in a lifetime sort of opportunity and I'm sure they'll persuade a lot of people to return.

.

- Neil

I agree with you Neil in regards to getting big blockbuster features and how that would attract international artists. However WETA does pay EXTREMELY well especially for people that jump on board for the last few months on a project. I know artists getting paid 3k/week. And thats not an exaggeration. Mind you they work 80 hours/week. In Weta's case because of the "low NZ dolllar/remote location/blockbuster combination, they have to dish out big money to get artists over there. Canada is wayyyyyy more accessible to the international community than NZ is. In that respect I dont see companies in Canada starting to pay sick amounts of money

McGill
11-15-2005, 12:46 AM
You know, I grew up in Canada and now live in the States. In terms of the healthcare, both countries have their share of problems. Americans feast on stories that talk about wait times and shortages back home. But I bet there are millions and millions of americans who would be thrilled to have what Canadians enjoy. At the end of the day, having basic healthcare for the whole country, regardless of their circumstances, beats the pants off of a system that only supports those that can afford it. The people who have the loudest voices against universal healthcare are usually millionaire talking heads who can afford whatever they want anyway, so why would they care?

Getting back on topic, it would be great if Canada had a premier vfx house or animation studio. There's no reason to not have one. James Cameron could set one up in a heartbeat. Bronfman could have poured money into a Canadian studio instead of universal if he wanted to. Until there's a grassroots push by Canadian industry leaders though, Canada will just serve up the talent for the bigger shops down south.

rcronin
11-15-2005, 12:56 AM
Canada is wayyyyyy more accessible to the international community than NZ is. In that respect I dont see companies in Canada starting to pay sick amounts of money



Ahh yes. I think we would pay sick IF #1 The corporation making the movie had large budget dollars and paid Canadian companies well. We tend to work on 2-5 million dollar fx/anim bids which are about 10% of a blockbuster (conservatively).
#2 America wasn't coming here to save as much money as they can. We don't have a niche so we are providing California product at a lower rate basically.
Perhaps Weta paid well on LOTR but where does WETA get the money? They either have it in the budget to pay proper or take a loss in order to secure the job - banking on future profit. And as you said, 3K a week - but 80 hours! That equals $1500 a week = below industry standard.

soulburn3d
11-15-2005, 03:49 AM
I agree with you Neil in regards to getting big blockbuster features and how that would attract international artists. However WETA does pay EXTREMELY well especially for people that jump on board for the last few months on a project. I know artists getting paid 3k/week.

I don't remember saying they didn't get paid well. But most of the people I know who went down there was because they wanted to work on kickass films or live in a spectacular natural environment rather than the number 1 reason being the cash.

- Neil

soulburn3d
11-15-2005, 03:54 AM
#2 America wasn't coming here to save as much money as they can. We don't have a niche so we are providing California product at a lower rate basically.

I'm afraid as long as Canada's only real advantage is "we're cheaper", they're not going to attract the really cool projects, just the people who can't afford to pay full price down in the states.

- Neil

PhilOsirus
11-15-2005, 05:02 AM
I'm afraid as long as Canada's only real advantage is "we're cheaper", they're not going to attract the really cool projects, just the people who can't afford to pay full price down in the states.

- Neil

The US has a huge population compared to Canada, so I think this whole thing is a bit blown out of proportions. As for "the really cool projects", those are more than anything about money and talent. Canadians have lower wages and good talent (not more or less than the US), so that's a good advantage, but we are not numerous, so don't except a California in Canada.

Also, our tax dollars go to give tax credits to companies or other incentives so they can set up shop here. For a population of only 32.3 million I think we are doing fine.

Of course the US still remains a great model of corporate success, but that shouldn't cast a shadow over Canada. In fact, I tend to think both countries are in the end working togheter in that respect, because as it has been said before things often start here only to be bought by bigger US companies anyway. It's a relationship both countries have, not a conflict.

DevilHacker
11-15-2005, 05:03 AM
Vancouver has always been voted by UN as the top 3 in quality of life in the world…high tax is the price of getting good quality of life!Haha…
So because the UN says it’s true, it must be…
I could go on a rant, but to keep the forum non-political, I will try my best not to.
Haha… Kidding aside, I have seen Vancouver, and it is gorgeous, I plan on going there for a month-long vacation one day…

Lets speak again when you become disabled by some drunk driver where the accident was out of your control. Lets see how much you are willing to beg for health care support from the government then...There is always ways around freak accidents where you need some cash for health expense. On such way is to pull money out of you 401K, another… While not commonly know outside the USA… Are our good friends, the Lawyers…
:D

Synthesizer
11-15-2005, 05:27 AM
Well, I haven't left yet so they don't have to worry about getting me back :D Although, I will have to move if I want to get a full time job, at least to another part of Canada. I live in Saskatchewan, and there is almost nothing here for 3D jobs. We seem to be the place that everyone skips over, probably because its too cold :sad:

private
11-15-2005, 06:46 AM
Also, our tax dollars go to give tax credits to companies or other incentives so they can set up shop here. For a population of only 32.3 million I think we are doing fine.

There are actually more people in California than there are in all of Canada.

asparapani
11-15-2005, 07:23 AM
The US has a huge population compared to Canada, so I think this whole thing is a bit blown out of proportions.

This is NOT the reason why salaries are better in the states. The reason is because the INDUSTRY is in the states. In addition, when you have a cities like LA or SF that have such a concentration of talented artists, the studios must pay well because it is very competitive.

mangolass
11-15-2005, 08:12 AM
In addition, when you have a cities like LA or SF that have such a concentration of talented artists, the studios must pay well because it is very competitive.

Wouldn't a shortage of talented labor lead to higher wages, and a huge concentration lead to lower wages?

I think the higher wages are more because of the high concentration of big~budget studios than the high concentration of workers, right?

LT

hentsteph
11-15-2005, 01:42 PM
asparapani "I was going to mention the weather but we would re-adapt to the cold winter months( X-montrealer speaking...)"

Looking out the window and guess what... it's snowing in Mtl.

Cronholio
11-15-2005, 03:30 PM
Haha…
So because the UN says it’s true, it must be…
I could go on a rant, but to keep the forum non-political, I will try my best not to.
Haha… Kidding aside, I have seen Vancouver, and it is gorgeous, I plan on going there for a month-long vacation one day…

The UN didn't say it. The report comes from a UK research firm in Human Resources. The purpose of the report isn't to rate cities best to worst, the purpose of the report is to gather information about quality of life in order for employers around the world to guage how to compensate employees working in those cities. It's almost purely based on economics. If you look at the report, you'll see that there is statisticly almost no difference between the top 90-100 cities, and that the quality of life in Vancouver is really no better than living in a similarly sized U.S. city like Houston.

PhilOsirus
11-15-2005, 04:06 PM
This is NOT the reason why salaries are better in the states. The reason is because the INDUSTRY is in the states. In addition, when you have a cities like LA or SF that have such a concentration of talented artists, the studios must pay well because it is very competitive.

And I suppose the industry is in California for its magical power of attraction?;) It's there because the US has formed talented 3D artists in huge numbers and the companies can find employees quickly. Canada has the same, except the "large numbers" part. The population IS the reason, since for example Ubisoft had to ask the government to help fund the creation of a school dedicated to game-related studies (level design, modeling, animation, programming, etc) since there was such a huge lack of potential employees.

Wouldn't a shortage of talented labor lead to higher wages, and a huge concentration lead to lower wages? I think the higher wages are more because of the high concentration of big~budget studios than the high concentration of workers, right?

It can be the case, but other factors are involved. In the US, in this industry the salaries are high because there is competition among the companies (it's not like everyone and their grandmas are talented enough anyway). Here in Canada, there is competition among the potential employees, since the companies are few, hence salaries are lower.

I would say the US has achieved a good balance (which it could start to lose with the emergence of China and Korea in this field) but Canada has not.

I hope in the coming years it will be easier to travel for work from one country to another, being able to work anywhere we want is what the future should be like.

MikeRhone
11-15-2005, 04:09 PM
You won't indulge us...? Lets hear about 'em!

Heh, Naa... The companies themselves are probably great, freindly and fun. I just won't bother trying through the regular application process anymore. Word of mouth and working for people that already know you is so much less stress!

rcronin
11-15-2005, 05:16 PM
almost no difference between the top 90-100 cities, and that the quality of life in Vancouver is really no better than living in a similarly sized U.S. city like Houston.



Well, if you can deal with taking less than 3 gulps of beer while standing!...
Strange Texas Laws (google searched):

Texas


The entire
Encyclopedia Britannica is banned in Texas because it contains a formula for making beer at home.
A recently passed anticrime law requires criminals to give their victims 24 hours notice, either orally or in writing, and to explain the nature of the crime to be committed.
In El Paso, churches, hotels, halls of assembly, stores, markets, banking rooms, railroad depots, and saloons are required to provide spittoons ``of a kind and number to efficiently contain expectorations into them.''
It is illegal to milk another person's cow.
In Houston, it is illegal to sell Limburger cheese on Sunday.
In LeFors, it is illegal to take more than three swallows of beer while standing.
In San Antonio, it is illegal for both sexes to flirt or respond to flirtation using the eyes and/or hands.
In Mesquite, it is illegal for children to have unusual haircuts.
n Texas, it is illegal to sell alcohol by the drink on Sunday before noon unless a meal has been ordered. Beer and wine may be sold for off premise consumption by legally licensed stores on Sunday, but not before noon, one may go to a bar, however, at 11 am and have as many shots of whiskey as he likes while he eats his meal. - Submitted by: L.B., Dallas
It is illegal in Texas for a man to operate a motor vehicle without a shirt on. (It doesn't say anything about women.) - Submitted by: L.B., Dallas
Although the City of Houston has no zoning laws in place, every structure must have a hitching post before it. - Submitted by: L.B., Dallas
Come to Vancouver where it's legal to posess a personal amount of mary jane right before you hit the local mountains for snowboarding action followed by a kayak ride in the ol pacific O!

MikeRhone
11-15-2005, 08:29 PM
rcronin sounds like half the animators in Vancouver. I think its a law that all animators have to be snowboarders... And listen to punk.

and smell.

rcronin
11-15-2005, 10:06 PM
##########

rcronin
11-15-2005, 10:08 PM
rcronin sounds like half the animators in Vancouver. I think its a law that all animators have to be snowboarders... And listen to punk.
Lol I'd say you sound like a Danish animator but I havent' met a lot of them.
I've been to Copenhagen. Nice place. Cooooold like Canada. Best chocolate cocoa and smorbrod ever. I'd say their love for cycling is something in common with us Vancouverites. Also, no one J-walks even if there is no cars for miles! The ticket is probably too expensive eh?:)

FloydBishop
11-15-2005, 10:21 PM
I know a lot of americans that have wanted to move to Canada, but have been deterred by the high income tax and low wages (esp. in BC).

I'm one of those Americans. I moved to Toronto for a very short time. All of my debt from the states followed me, and the currency conversion wasn't in my favor. I left once I did the math and figured out it just wasn't worth it.

Canada is a beautiful country though. I visit whenever I can.

DevilHacker
11-15-2005, 10:31 PM
Well, if you can deal with taking less than 3 gulps of beer while standing!...
Strange Texas Laws (google searched)
HaHaHa…
That’s one of the best posts I have read in a while…
States always have funny. Pointless laws, which no one obeys by…
Here are some funny laws for Canada…
:beer:


Comic books which depict any illegal acts are banned.
35% of a radio stations content must be "Canadian Content".
Citizens may not publicly remove bandages.
It is illegal for clear or non-dark sodas to contain caffeine.
Businesses must provide rails for tying up horses.
If you are released from prison, it is required that you are given a handgun with bullets and a horse, so you can ride out of town.
When raining, a person may not water his/her lawn.
All business signs in the province of Quebec must be in French.
Homeowners are responsible for clearing snow off of municipal sidewalks.
The color of house and garage doors is regulated by city bylaws (a purple door get you a fine).
It's illegal to climb trees.
It is illegal to eat ice-cream on Bank Street on a Sunday.
You can't drag a dead horse down Yonge Street on a Sunday.
Residents are not allowed to have an Internet connection faster than 56k.
You may not paint a ladder as it will be slippery when wet.
It is illegal to show public affection on Sunday. (eg: No kissing, ect…)
You may not own a log cabin.
The Queen Elizabeth Hotel must feed your horse freely when you rent a room.
No one in Canada may watch or listen to an encrypted broadcast which is not licensed by the Canadian government.
It is illegal to kill a sick person by frightening them.
It is illegal to pretend to practice witchcraft.

KolbyJukes
11-15-2005, 10:38 PM
yeah the comic book one always puzzled me, as it's still enforced. A friend of a coworker of mine had a whole ton of his comics seized at the border, they claimed they were 'indecent' or something like that, cause they had the usual big breasted women in them. 3 months later they returned the comics to him.

****ing stupid.

Cronholio
11-15-2005, 10:49 PM
Come to Vancouver where it's legal to posess a personal amount of mary jane right before you hit the local mountains for snowboarding action followed by a kayak ride in the ol pacific O!

Just a hunch, but I'm thinking you'd probably get better weed in Houston being so close to Mexico and all; plus you have better weather... and can go surfing/fishing in the Gulf. I'll take girls in bikini's over crunchy granola snow bunnies any day.

rcronin
11-15-2005, 11:17 PM
Just a hunch, but I'm thinking you'd probably get better weed in Houston being so close to Mexico and all;



I can't remember the publication that does it (go figure) but Vancouver competes with Amsterdam for #1 and #2 in the world. We were recently coined "Vansterdam".:)
But back to CG and stuff ladies and gents...

Well, to stick up for female hotness as well - you'd be blown away at the '10/10 ratio' here. It's bizarre -in a good way. But yes, Mexico rox too.

kiaran
11-15-2005, 11:53 PM
I feel I must defend the Vancouver girls and illicit substances. Both are world class and should definitely not be considered a deterrent for coming here to work.

Now as for warm sandy beaches... none at the moment I'm afraid; only in the summer months.

RmachucaA
11-16-2005, 03:42 AM
Not to mention ridicoulous cig. prices...

but in all honesty, i think montreal is the best place in canada to work\live in, the wages are comparable to BC, but the cost of living is lower, except for the 15% tax on any purchase :\.

Pinoy McGee
11-16-2005, 04:58 AM
The wait times to see a specialist can be several months (people have died waiting in some cases). Due to the limitations of universal health care there is growing demand for private health for those willing to pay more.

But...more people, rich, middle class or poor, newborn or senior citizen, are taken care off more than societies that don't have a similar system. People with money are free to fast track their treatment for sure. People who don't have money sometimes have to wait...but they aren't denied health care.

People who don't have money in places that dont' have a siimilar system set up, how are they going to fend for themselves or there sick love ones? Rob a bank, deal drugs, mug you?

MCronin
11-16-2005, 06:06 AM
People who don't have money sometimes have to wait...but they aren't denied health care.

I'm sick of reading these unimformed opinions on US vs Canadian healthcare. The fact is in the US, no doctor or hospital either private or public can refuse you care based on your ability to pay. It is aainst the law and if they refuse care they can be sued and lose their practice. You can have an outstanding bill for 10's thousands of dollars with a hospital, walk in and demand to see a doctor and the doctor is obligated to see you. If you have a job, even a not so decent job, like flipping burgers at McDonald's you can get on a company health plan. In some cases you may have to partially fund it yourself, but it's still cheaper than having the goverment tax you for it. If you have a decent job, like, I dunno, making games or films in a staff position and sometimes even as a contractor, you often have a health plan funded completely by your employer and it's usually a kick ass PPO. You pay virtually nothing, just a small deductable every 12 month period. If you lose your job and your benefits, you go on COBRA for up to 36 months, you're still covered. People bitch about the cost of health insurance, but the truth is even if you have to fund it completely yourself you can get really good coverage for about what you pay for your satellite TV and broadband connection. If for whatever reason you do not have a job or a healthplan, you can get coverage from the government and you have state and county hospitals you can go to. That hospital you see on ER is Cook County hospital. That's the hospital you go to in Chicago when you have no insurance and can't afford to pay. It's not quite as nice as the show but it's still a great hospital. The place saved my life once. People do die due to their inability to get proper care, many HMO's suck, it can be expensive, people go bankrupt due to medical bills, but it's no where near what some people in this thread are making it out to be and the quality of care is excellent.

Now Canada's healthcare is no Shangri La. Beleive it or not, the government does not cover anyone and everyone in Canada. I had to deal with this personally over the last couple years. You walk into an emergency room without Canadian "Universal" healthcare, just regular old insurance, and guess what... You have to pay the doctor's fee up front before they will see you, cash or credit, no checks. They have no way to process insurance (and this was with a Canadian health insurance company). Unless you are bleeding out a major artery you have to pay up front. I was denied care by no less than six doctors and have not been able to secure a family doctor because no doctor within 20 miles of here is taking patients. I'd walk into these doctor's offices ask to see someone or make an appointment, and they'd refuse to see me and hand me a sheet with contact info for other local doctors andtell me to contact them and see if they'd take patients. That just doesn't happen in the US. What you do in Canada, when you don't have a family doctor (and it seems like a lot of people here don't have family doctors) is you go to walk in clinics whenever you have a problem and they check you out, then send you all over town to get your various labs done, and then maybe they give you a referral. If you have to rely on a clinic for care you probably will never see the same doctor twice. You say walk in clinic to an American and it will conjure up images of a hole in the wall dump run by Doctor Nick. In downtown Toronto, it seems that's exactly what they are. The one I went to was a store front covered in graffitti and the waiting room was filthy. The doctors at the clinic weren't equipped to do anything other than take vitals and talk. For an EKG I had to go to a different lab. For a blood draw I had to go some other clinic. You go into almost any doctor's office (or free walk in clinic) in the US, and you can get an EKG, they'll do blood work, some will even do XRays, and minor surgical procedures. For anything they can't do, they send you to the local hospital because the doctor practices there as well.

Obviously Canada's healthcare system works for most Canadian's, and my experience is my own. But to be perfectly honest after dealing with socialized medicine, I wouldn't trade US healthcare and a good PPO for anything.

dantea
11-16-2005, 06:33 AM
Obviously Canada's healthcare system works for most Canadian's, and my experience is my own. But to be perfectly honest after dealing with socialized medicine, I wouldn't trade US healthcare and a good PPO for anything.

This statement sounds somewhat contradictory to me. You're talking about being biased towards the US healthcare system on the basis of your experience. But that experience seems to me mostly based on the fact that you're a US citizen living in Canada. :)

For some interesting health care commentary, this blog is a pretty good read with references to back up its claims:
http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/health_of_nations/

I'll choose a choice quote from the blog on the Canadian health care system vs the US.
In simple ratings, Canada is 30th while we're 37th (according to the OECD). So they're a bit better, but it's not like the giant disparity we had with France, whose system takes the coveted top slot. As noted above, the Canadian system is significantly cheaper as a percentage of GDP than is the American system, despite the fact that the former covers everyone and the latter leaves a fair chunk of its population out in the cold. On the years of life lost metric, American women lose 3,836 years per 100,000 women and the men give up 6,648. The comparable Canadian figures are 2,768 and 4,698 respectively.


More fun statistics can be found here:
http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2825_495642_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html
http://www.oecd.org/document/46/0,2340,en_2825_495642_34971438_1_1_1_1,00.html
http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,2340,en_2825_495642_12968734_1_1_1_1,00.html

MCronin
11-16-2005, 07:02 AM
This statement sounds somewhat contradictory to me. You're talking about being biased towards the US healthcare system on the basis of your experience. But that experience seems to me mostly based on the fact that you're a US citizen living in Canada. :)

That's exactly what I'm saying. I've now seen it from both sides and this is my opinion based on my experience. We've got people in this thread who seem to think that milliions of people are just dying every day in the streets like some third world country in the US because they can't get care, and that everyone is Canada is getting the care they need. Neither is anywhere near accurate based on my experience. The US isn't the dire situation people are making it out to be and socialized medicine is frought with as many problems as private health care.

To give you examples:

In the US we have a problem with Doctor's over medicating patients. The drug companies offer incentives to prescribe their drugs and some unsrupulous doctors take them. When I came to Canada one of the first news stories I heard was that the Ontario government was apparently offering doctors incentives to not prescirbe so many drugs in an effort to cut the health care budget. In the US we have HMOs that deny claims, sometimes life saving surgeries, simply because they don't want to pay. Last month I hear a story about a little girl who can't get a hole in her heart closed and a man who can't get life saving gastric bypass because the Ontario government doesn't want to cover it for whatever reason.

I'm sure there are people in Canada for whom this level of care works well and there are plenty of people in the US who would be glad to have it. In my experience though, I'd almost rather roll the dice with no health care coverage in the US than deal with the level of care I've seen in Toronto.

EDIT:

This quote pretty much sums up my feelings nicely (From your first link)

Canada's system is too biased against the private sector; some degree of private, supplementary insurance should be allowed. We do not live in an equal society and we've never had a problem with allowing the richest to benefit from their funds. But if Canada's problem is that they have a ceiling, our problem is that we don't have a floor. Liberals shouldn't construct a system that stops Americans from getting ever-better health care, but we need one that guarantees a certain level of care. In essence, we want a floor without a ceiling.

I don't want the government in charge of my health care, especially not the American government. I'm lucky in that as a skilled worker I personally don't have to worry about the lack of a floor in the US.

private
11-16-2005, 01:48 PM
Many Canadians want health care that's "equal" for all Canadians. Doesn't happen. If the Prime Minister of Canada breaks his kneecap, he's not going to wait in line for 6 months, just as a plumber with the same injury would. He would either pay and have it done at a private hospital, or as in Mr. Chretien's case beforehand, skip all waiting lines and go to a military hospital. (this was not the case of a breaking a kneecap)

I think a two tier health care is a better system, because it would reduce the waiting periods for people to get treatment. How is that bad?

Pinoy McGee
11-16-2005, 01:52 PM
But that experience seems to me mostly based on the fact that you're a US citizen living in Canada.

Busted! :)

We've got people in this thread who seem to think that milliions of people are just dying every day in the streets like some third world country in the US because they can't get care,

What was the name of that hurricane that was on CNN a lot? :sad:

ChrisMann
11-16-2005, 10:50 PM
[QUOTE=


What was the name of that hurricane that was on CNN a lot? :sad:[/QUOTE]

Quoted for absolute agreement.

mummey
11-16-2005, 11:15 PM
Many Canadians want health care that's "equal" for all Canadians. Doesn't happen. If the Prime Minister of Canada breaks his kneecap, he's not going to wait in line for 6 months, just as a plumber with the same injury would. He would either pay and have it done at a private hospital, or as in Mr. Chretien's case beforehand, skip all waiting lines and go to a military hospital. (this was not the case of a breaking a kneecap)

I think a two tier health care is a better system, because it would reduce the waiting periods for people to get treatment. How is that bad?

Waiting Periods are unheard of in the US with the exception of organ transplants.

private
11-16-2005, 11:45 PM
Waiting Periods are unheard of in the US with the exception of organ transplants.

That's the way it should be.

PhilOsirus
11-17-2005, 04:30 AM
You say walk in clinic to an American and it will conjure up images of a hole in the wall dump run by Doctor Nick.

Haha, I actually still have an image in my head from when I was a kid and went to a clinic with my mother for some vaccination or some such. It looked like a dump indeed, it was below ground in a dead-quiet residential area, blue-ish neon lighting that made everyone look like the living dead. I was maybe 8 years old and I still remember the "image", so it must have really freaked the hell out of me.

Anyway I think all Canadians I know of agree the system sucks, the problem is that we don't believe we can just toggle a switch to make it better, we are hoping for a middle ground, but then again on one hand you have the incompetent government and all-for-profit companies on the other.

It would sure be nice to have a familly doctor, that way some sort of trust could actually be established. How can you feel any trust toward a doctor you've never seen and will never see again?

I think a two tier health care is a better system, because it would reduce the waiting periods for people to get treatment. How is that bad?

Since the cost of private health care would be very high, pressure would be made to have the gov subsidize it to some extent, to reduce the total cost, which also means that corporations would over charge to make more money. Also, if X% of the population is on private health care then the government can start cutting in the public health care's finances because "less people are using it", and when you start to cut you never cut enough.

In the end we would have this: The same lack of quality and long waiting lists for the public health care system because of reduced funds (thanks to various excuses and statistics), and a private system for the rich.

So we would not be better off in fact, unless rich. Hence Canadians want to find a better model, not take the US' model nor keep the current one.

kees
11-17-2005, 03:23 PM
Also,

Most of you are only talking about sort term, immediate health care.
Like walking into the emergency hospital and getting treatment.

What about long term medical problems?
I have not seen any proof that this actually works well in the US system.
The Canadian system seems far more affordable in those cases...
(I'm no expert)

-Kees

goleafsgo
11-17-2005, 04:24 PM
Hence Canadians want to find a better model, not take the US' model nor keep the current one.

What is stopping us from implementing something inbetween the Canadian model and the US model is politics. The NDP fight against changing anything, and the Liberals have used this issue for years to scare people away from voting Conservative. It's the "third rail" of politics in Canada. If you even mention alternative ways of delivering health care you get seriously punished for it.

I have read that there are 15 or so countries in the world that have public health care systems...but there are only 3 that have ONLY public systems by law: Canada, North Korea, and Cuba or China. And we fall behind all of the countries that offer a mix of public/private in terms of quality. What we need politically is the ability to have a debate about what kind of mix would work better for us than the current system...but this isn't going to happen any time soon I think.

Lorecanth
11-18-2005, 02:08 AM
Two stories...

When I was sixteen had an incident with a bus, and tore my acl in a weird way that also broke the bone. If i hadn't had immediate surgery, I'd have been limping for the rest of my life due to the destruction of the growth plate. Tore it on monday had surgery on tuesday. 97% of my knee back.

Went to VFS, managed to break my arm. Had to take a taxi to the hospital, no available ambulances, didn't have a readily available car. Waited for 12 hours in the emergency room, in severe pain, they didn't have a problem wih the insurance. Had a rather weird fracture again, they give me a cloth square made from what looks like a torn bed sheet, say that they're out of tylenol 3 and that I'll probably be fine. I can't fully extend my right arm now, f*ckers is all I have to say.

I earn more than a living, pay my taxes keep the government running. Why should a person who does not contribute as much to society (by what society deems rewarding aka capitalism) receive more immediate or even equal health care ? In a world of limited resources, such as competent medical care, there has to be an evaluation of what is actually valuable to a society. Its our own damn fault that we deem paris hilton saying "THATS HOT" or a baseball players salary as more important then a young child getting healthcare.

unchikun
11-18-2005, 03:15 AM
I have read that there are 15 or so countries in the world that have public health care systems...but there are only 3 that have ONLY public systems by law: Canada, North Korea, and Cuba or China. A

China has moved away from a public health care system and more towards an insurance/HMO based system to reduce the burden on the government. Many poor people get the short end of the stick if medical expenses are too high.

For North Korea, they might have great health care, but they have an issue with starvation.

rocarpen
11-18-2005, 03:47 AM
I earn more than a living, pay my taxes keep the government running. Why should a person who does not contribute as much to society (by what society deems rewarding aka capitalism) receive more immediate or even equal health care ? In a world of limited resources, such as competent medical care, there has to be an evaluation of what is actually valuable to a society...

Here are some similar ideas:

- The more taxes you pay, the faster the police should respond to your calls.
- The more taxes you pay, the faster the firemen should respond to your calls.
- The more taxes you pay, the more votes you should get.

Lunacy. Human value isn't measured in taxes.

M.E.L.
11-18-2005, 04:49 AM
Interesting thread...

I'm really not sure that Canada will ever be able to keep the talent really. I've worked at a number of studios across the country and irregardless of how great things are, there always seems to be a much more enticing offer or opportunity elsewhere. When I left Meteor, a slew of others left for places like Animal Logic and WETA or just flocked down to the states (I believe a few are over at Omation now).

The ongoing joke in Canada seems to be that at some point or another we're all gonna end up at EA in Vancouver :P

As far as the places to be.. I grew up in Toronto and spent most of my life there, to me it's just your regular bustling city with nothing all that exciting to offer (it has a great tight-knit animation industry where everyone knows each other for the most part). Montreal is a beautiful city and I found it a great place to work (yes, the women are gorgeous there as SheepFactory found out - told ya so! -) but it gets ridiculously cold in the winter... Anything further out on the east coast I've found unpleasant as well and literally completely dry for work once you get beyond Quebec. West-coast is very nice, Vancouver is a great place to be as far as people, weather and work (for the most part work-wise, Vancouver does experience its generally dry periods as well).

For me the US is just more enticing, more work, far better pay and a much better variant weather wise if you feel the need to move around.

-s

p.s. on the healthcare note.. it's all about knowing your hospitals anywhere I've been (some are far crazier than others.. definitely holds true for US and Canada).

Saurus
11-18-2005, 08:16 AM
What is stopping us from implementing something inbetween the Canadian model and the US model is politics. The NDP fight against changing anything, and the Liberals have used this issue for years to scare people away from voting Conservative. It's the "third rail" of politics in Canada. If you even mention alternative ways of delivering health care you get seriously punished for it.

If the conservative had been in power during the ramping up to Iraq War, today’s issue would not be about health care, but how the hell did we get into this mess...how people forget.

Saurus
11-18-2005, 08:20 AM
Interesting thread...

I'm really not sure that Canada will ever be able to keep the talent really. I've worked at a number of studios across the country and irregardless of how great things are, there always seems to be a much more enticing offer or opportunity elsewhere. When I left Meteor, a slew of others left for places like Animal Logic and WETA or just flocked down to the states (I believe a few are over at Omation now).


It’s not just Canadian losing talent the US. I think it’s the whole FX industry loosing talent to gaming companies.

Ryan-B
11-18-2005, 08:46 AM
We have the talent, but there seems to be a lack of will to push ourselves to the next level. I'm guessing that the financial risks are preventing us from establishing big production houses. Reducing the risks might encourage some investment.

This is an interesting article about the creative financing used by movie studios.

http://www.slate.com/id/2117309/

"Of course, it's not only Paramount that employs these devices—every studio uses them to minimize risk. Remember all those stories about how New Line was betting its entire future on the Lord of the Rings trilogy? Not quite. New Line covered almost the entire cost by using German tax shelters, New Zealand subsidies, and pre-sales. If studio executives don't crow in public about such coups, it's probably out of fear that such publicity will induce governments to stiffen their rules—as, for example, Germany periodically does with its tax code. "

M.E.L.
11-18-2005, 09:59 PM
It’s not just Canadian losing talent the US. I think it’s the whole FX industry loosing talent to gaming companies.

Well, I think that the games industry seems to provoke an interest in people as far as the next gen work goes. Working at EA I saw a lot of real heavy weights from film make the transition but at the same time there were a few others who just transitioned back to film from games. In my experience games seems to have a pretty steady flow of work, by the time you hit ship date you're already planning the next title and beginning pre-pro; in film you can sometimes have a couple months without a lick of work (all depends on the shop).

It's pretty hard to stick to the small shops spread throughout Canada when you are receiving offers from bigger players in the US and abroad, mix that with the ability to travel and see new places and it is no wonder that myself and many others just take that leap :)

-s

Lorecanth
11-18-2005, 10:19 PM
Here are some similar ideas:

- The more taxes you pay, the faster the police should respond to your calls.
- The more taxes you pay, the faster the firemen should respond to your calls.
- The more taxes you pay, the more votes you should get.

Lunacy. Human value isn't measured in taxes.

No its measured in value to society, which i clearly state. Currently the big unfair stick used to measure the majority of society is capitalism. However, you cannot argue that a heroin addict has an equal right to care then the prime minister of canada. How then can you argue that the worker at mcdonalds has the right to equal care as say a programmer who has spent years and a lot of money training himself to be a valuable asset to a company? I call that lunacy.

Compassion to a certain level is great, but as harsh as it might sound society can only allow so much of compassionate or for that matter aristocratic drain before those who work for their living will rebel. The really sad part of the equation though is its more likely for the compassionate side to suffer before the aristocratic, because everyone in america aspires to join the aristocracy.

rocarpen
11-19-2005, 01:15 AM
No its measured in value to society, which i clearly state. ... you cannot argue that a heroin addict has an equal right to care then the prime minister of canada.

That's EXACTLY what I argue. We all get ONE VOTE, justice is BLIND, etc. I don't care if you're a CEO or a squeegee kid - you are a human being, and entitled to certain inaliable human rights. PERIOD.

Human value is "measured in value to society"? Do you have any idea what a fascist concept that is? Strip away your words, and I see classic American middle class paranoia of the poor person out to steal your money. Reagan's 'welfare queens', etc. What a messed up value system.

Saurus
11-19-2005, 02:10 AM
In my experience games seems to have a pretty steady flow of work, by the time you hit ship date you're already planning the next title and beginning pre-pro; in film you can sometimes have a couple months without a lick of work (all depends on the shop).


...ha ha ha thats the EA way. They have production setup until the next millennium! It is even more so true for EA’s sport game franchise, where they know there will be an NBA 08 after NBA 07. That’s of course if the previous release bomb big time.

After the game I’m working on ends, there is a good chance my down time could be as long as 4 months. But what’s different between fulltime film guys (not contracted workers) and fulltime game guys is they will keep us on payroll during the slow times.

Lorecanth
11-19-2005, 10:31 AM
That's EXACTLY what I argue. We all get ONE VOTE, justice is BLIND, etc. I don't care if you're a CEO or a squeegee kid - you are a human being, and entitled to certain inaliable human rights. PERIOD.

Human value is "measured in value to society"? Do you have any idea what a fascist concept that is? Strip away your words, and I see classic American middle class paranoia of the poor person out to steal your money. Reagan's 'welfare queens', etc. What a messed up value system.

Facist lol not facist. Socialistic is the term you're looking for, communistic even. How do you think the beuracrats in canada determine who gets health care ?

Resource Allocation Abstract (http://www.resource-allocation.com/content/2/1/3)

Socialistic regimes like your own are the first to proscribe value. In that way I actually quite admire canada. I believe a child should recieve cancer treatment before an 80 year old man. Actually pretty universally, even if that man has the financial werewithal to pay for his treatment.

I've already stated that capitalistic evaluation of value is quite flawed. I just believe its a damn sight better then beuracratic evaluation.

kees
11-19-2005, 05:26 PM
"heroin addict has an equal right to care then the prime minister of canada"
"I believe a child should recieve cancer treatment before an 80 year old man"

So if I understand your posts correctly. You feel that a herion addict has less right to medical treatment then the prime minister, but a child has more rights then and 80 year old.

So does the child have more rights then the prime minister?
Does somebody who works hard everyday, but has little education and makes almost no money have less right to healtcare then the prime minister?

What about if the prime minister stole 100 million dollars. He still has an excellent education, so he should probably go before the herion addict that has never stolen anything, but did ruin his/her own life, right?


This is exactly where imo the problem lays. It is not that straight forward and therefor it's better to give everybody equal rights to healthcare.
Sorry if I misunderstood your post, but it's usually only people who are well off that argue PRO not having equal access to healtcare for everybody.



-Kees

xtrudethis
11-23-2005, 02:20 AM
There are probably better places to live and work, then again, maybe not... all depends on one's outlook I suppose.

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