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View Full Version : TRAILER: "HOODWINKED" CG Films (Red Riding Hood REDUX)


RobertoOrtiz
11-09-2005, 02:04 PM
Go to NICKSCLUSIVE to see the trailer from the CG Film from
the Weintstein Brothers (Founders of Miramax)
http://www.nick.com/turbonick/index.jhtml

-R

erilaz
11-09-2005, 02:14 PM
What the heck is it with this "Only in the United States and it's territories" bollocks? Do they want the world to see their movie or not?

Sorry Roberto, you obviously can't see the sign (because you're in the US!) but if you're not local you get blocked. :sad:

Bentagon
11-09-2005, 02:19 PM
Another one that gets blocked? What do these people want? More people that WON'T be seeing their films?

- Benjamin

wuensch
11-09-2005, 02:43 PM
--fear of alien terrorists destroying the movie?
--George Bush as Red Riding Hood?
--New weapon technology tried out in the clip?

downright stupid.
This sucks just as much (if not more) as the superflous and idiotic region codes on DVD.

Olli

Slurry
11-09-2005, 03:42 PM
Bah, humbug! >:(

Maybe change the thread title to US Only.
Too bad, I am really curious about this one.

Art

google monkey
11-09-2005, 04:09 PM
http://www.aoltrack.com/r/cea5f8688e53ccc02d8ce7fe331c6c41/

gginther
11-09-2005, 04:43 PM
wow, that's really "turbo." you stop pretty much immediately! it blocks Firefox too (and I'm in the U.S.)

buh-bye :)

MDuffy
11-09-2005, 05:00 PM
Hmm... looks like us Linux users are out of luck for viewing it as well. Marketing campaigns that are severely limited in who they can reach seems like a really stupid and costly idea to me.

That aoltrack link just winds back to the TurboNick site and all its restrictions.

Ah well, they've lost my interest now.

Michael Duffy

Fahad
11-09-2005, 05:03 PM
http://www.aoltrack.com/r/cea5f8688e53ccc02d8ce7fe331c6c41/

thanks for the link, but it's still blocked redirects to the original site.

fattyLees
11-09-2005, 06:31 PM
I saw it. You guys don't know it yet, but you might be lucky that you can't watch it.

To be honest, I think if this were a direct to video or a made for tv movie, then I would look at it with different eyes, but I don't think it is film quality. The animation was limited and the character designs seemed off to me. Little red riding hood seemed wall eyed and lifeless.

Does anyone know which studio created this and where they are located?

FloydBishop
11-09-2005, 06:46 PM
Does anyone know which studio created this and where they are located?

From this article:

http://www.animationmagazine.net/article.php?article_id=4650

The toon feature was produced by Kanbar Ent., which was launched in 2002 by Maurice Kanbar, the man behind the SKYY Vodka, and former Disney Animation exec Sue Bea Montgomery. Kanbar and Montgomery are credited as producers, along with David K. Lovegren and Preston Stutzman. Kanbar brought a short version of Hoodwinked! to the Cannes market two years ago.

wuensch
11-09-2005, 06:46 PM
I knew there must be a reason why they dont want us to see :scream:

MarkusM
11-09-2005, 07:23 PM
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117923025?categoryid=1731&cs=1

Quote from article:
Pic follows a band of furry and feathered cops investigating a domestic disturbance at Granny's cottage. Characters created include a karate-kicking Red, a sarcastic Wolf, an oafish Woodsman and a thrill-seeking Granny.Pic, the first to be released for the Kanbar banner, is penned and being helmed by Cory Edwards, Todd Edwards and Tony Leech.

Said Harvey Weinstein: "(This story) is a time-honored and whimsical feature that will captivate children's imaginations through its unique and eye-opening animation."

[end quote]

Wow. I am not sure what to say. It seems to me that they are trying to do a "South Park" like thing. The HW comment at the end is, well, so wrong in so many ways.

jeremybirn
11-09-2005, 07:40 PM
I knew there must be a reason why they dont want us to see :scream:

Can't see it here in the US either. Oh well.

-jeremy

Brettzies
11-09-2005, 07:53 PM
I saw it. You guys don't know it yet, but you might be lucky that you can't watch it.

To be honest, I think if this were a direct to video or a made for tv movie, then I would look at it with different eyes, but I don't think it is film quality. The animation was limited and the character designs seemed off to me. Little red riding hood seemed wall eyed and lifeless.I clicked on it last Friday and I have to agree with all these comments. I don't want to slam something so hard but I was pretty surprised they would consider this feature material. It's almost like when you're asked to critique a really bad demo reel. You can tell they are trying, but it's so god awful you don't know where to begin or what to build off to form a constructive critcism. It always makes me feel a little sad to see stuff like that.

Of course, now everyone will want to see it out of morbid curiosity.

visionmaster2
11-09-2005, 08:39 PM
Could someone explain me why it is bloked for non U.S ?
i really dont understand the reasons.

RockinAkin
11-09-2005, 08:44 PM
Just saw the trailer.

Not to be insulting or anything... but is this seriously going to be coming out in THEATERS?

:surprised

Digiegg
11-09-2005, 08:45 PM
I saw the trailer for it in the theaters.
Looks very funny to me. Not a film quality movie, but the humor in it is hilarious.

Capel
11-09-2005, 09:42 PM
some of it was kinda funny, but the poor quality in pretty much every area was just too distracting. all i could think was, "wait, are they serious?"

switchblade327
11-09-2005, 11:03 PM
Agreed with all the comments above. It seems like it might be a clever story with good writing. The character design is not so much bad as it it is uninspired and boring. But the animation... whoa. Yeah.

It's almost like when you're asked to critique a really bad demo reel. You can tell they are trying, but it's so god awful you don't know where to begin or what to build off to form a constructive critcism. It always makes me feel a little sad to see stuff like that.

My thoughts exactly. I don't want to knock anyone's work but most of what I just saw there is a quality that is excusable in a mediocre video game cutscene. For AAA games, TV or film, this is unacceptable quality.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know where Kanbar Entertainment or Blue Yonder Films is located? I don't want to get OT but I suspect el cheapo outsourcing.

fattyLees
11-09-2005, 11:07 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know where Kanbar Entertainment or Blue Yonder Films is located? I don't want to get OT but I suspect el cheapo outsourcing.


My thoughts exactly

tevih
11-10-2005, 03:12 AM
What would you guys prefer? Good writing or good visuals? It's one or the other...

Capel
11-10-2005, 03:38 AM
What would you guys prefer? Good writing or good visuals? It's one or the other...

in some cases, yeah. but not all.

RockinAkin
11-10-2005, 07:23 AM
What would you guys prefer? Good writing or good visuals? It's one or the other...
Who in the world ever said it has to be one or the other? :curious:

switchblade327
11-10-2005, 07:57 AM
What would you guys prefer? Good writing or good visuals? It's one or the other...

That's a pretty cynical perspective, don't you think? I think I'd just stop watching movies if that were really the case.

There's a lot of wiggle room between Awesome and Suck. That's where most movies fall in both departments.

victor throe
11-14-2005, 03:03 PM
man that sucks arse'oles that it cant be viewed

and i live in the 51st state of america and everything....i mean england

congratulations prickleodean, you just ensured i never spend a penny on that film or its merchandise.

word of mouth, feel the rage!!

Antonbomb22
11-14-2005, 09:24 PM
ah timewarner, i love they still keep their faith to microsoft because of the padding of the pockets. well i guess won't be seeing this movie because i am not opening up Internet explorer. im in the U.S. as well>_>

vfx
11-15-2005, 03:37 PM
God damn what sort of lame world do we live in that distributors limit the viewing of a trailer? Isn't the whole purpose to spread the word, and get people interested!??

Anyway, feel luctant to give you another link as i think that aol should learn the hard way - less viewers = less money!

http://www.hollywood.com/content/trailer_detail.aspx?id=3467952&r=6&f=2&pref=1

Theres the trailer anyway...and sorry but it looks awful! TV only I say.

slaughters
11-15-2005, 04:40 PM
ah timewarner, i love they still keep their faith to microsoft because of the padding of the pockets. well i guess won't be seeing this movie because i am not opening up Internet explorer. im in the U.S. as well>_>Well, yes. It must be a conspiracy by evil corporations intent on world wide dominion.

OR - some 20 something web programer put in code to detect the shockwave browser pluggin and was to lazy to add the bit which works for Firefox.

Nothing can be blamed on evil intentions which can not also be explained by incompetence.

P.S. I haven't seen it either, due to the fact that I use Firefox as well.


Just saw it using the above link (vfx (http://member.php?u=4740) should be severly punished for this) - The story sounds good, but the animation is like something you would see in a student contest - an entry level student contest

vfx
11-15-2005, 04:47 PM
(vfx (http://member.php/?u=4740) should be severly punished for this)

Nah I think the developers need punishing damn I cant get over its amateurishness - hey is that a new word? Lol

RobW720
11-15-2005, 04:49 PM
huh.... well... that sure is something...

Antonbomb22
11-15-2005, 10:27 PM
Well, yes. It must be a conspiracy by evil corporations intent on world wide dominion.

OR - some 20 something web programer put in code to detect the shockwave browser pluggin and was to lazy to add the bit which works for Firefox.

Nothing can be blamed on evil intentions which can not also be explained by incompetence.

ever notice how all viacom websites require windows media player for video? take a gander at MTV and VH1. all subsidiaries of viacom and all require internet explorer and windows media player. coincidence, i think not;)

BillB
11-15-2005, 11:03 PM
Nothing can be blamed on evil intentions which can not also be explained by incompetence. Sorry, I got lost - are we talking about the movie or the browser fiasco?
:D

BillB
11-15-2005, 11:12 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know where Kanbar Entertainment or Blue Yonder Films is located? I don't want to get OT but I suspect el cheapo outsourcing. Bingo! Finally found it. How'd they spend $20m??
"Hoodwinked is being animated at a 5,000-square-foot studio in The Philippines, staffed by 20 animators from a defunct studio in that country."

vfx
11-15-2005, 11:25 PM
Well thats interesting...so after all that discussion regarding outsourcing on Cgtalk, and finally some proof of concept - well I think this is a prime example as to why that just doesn't work! Hmmm company should be ashamed! Its horrible, and a WASTE OF MONEY! Imagine 20 million in the right hands - and what a great product you could have - these producer guys with the cash just don't know the difference between chinese takeout and a 3d artist. Shame on them.

RobW720
11-16-2005, 04:48 AM
its rendered nice, looks great, could be funny even but the animation looks like old crummy claymation.

switchblade327
11-16-2005, 05:36 AM
Bingo! Finally found it. How'd they spend $20m??
"Hoodwinked is being animated at a 5,000-square-foot studio in The Philippines, staffed by 20 animators from a defunct studio in that country."



HAHAHA! I f'n KNEW it! Good sleuthing work, Bill. I search for 5-10 minutes and came up with nothing. I'm saving this trailer to show the next person who threatens to send my job to a cheapo overseas outfit.

aazimkhan
11-16-2005, 06:11 AM
watch the trailer have fun.
http://www.hollywood.com/content/trailer_detail.aspx?id=3467952&r=8&f=1&pref=1


All i need to know is, how is this movie making it on theatres?, i saw the trailer at a theatre myself. I mean i have worked at a stuio trying to make a full-feathre 3d animation - and know how hard it is to produce it. Then there is this, poor quality but ending on the big screen....
oh well........

Cyborgguineapig
11-16-2005, 07:04 AM
Wow that was hideous to watch, twice! I usually laugh at little things but there was nothing in that trailer that made me even smile. Maybe Its hard for me to look past those expressionless eyes of Red. If these are supposed to be the highlights of the film, these little one liners and such I don't think they are going to do too great. Sorry I just don't feel it.

vfx
11-16-2005, 10:32 AM
Hi aazimkhan (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=1019), Thanks for the link but I already postd it a page back.....anyway so what film you working on??

danimat0r
11-16-2005, 01:25 PM
Wow.

And people worry about outsourcing? The cost of labor alone is not omnipotent. As um.. we can plainly see.

Not to knock anyone's work, but man. First Valiant, now this... looks like studios are gonna be learning a hard lesson that you can't get blood from a turnip. ie.)cutting corners or outsourcing it because it's cheaper is not a magic bullet to a better (or more profitable) product. This is a creative field; you're not cranking out a million identical widgets that can be made increasingly cheaper with no impact on quality.

What we see here, are the widgets of this bold new experiment in animation.

slaughters
11-16-2005, 03:38 PM
Wow.

And people worry about outsourcing? ....First Valiant, now this... I thought Valiant was a 3D film made and distributed in England (not something I'd compare to cheap outsourcing).

Am I wrong? Did the English studios outsorce the animation

danimat0r
11-16-2005, 03:39 PM
Some quick arithmetic and speculation.

This feature has a budget of 20 mil. Chicken Little had a budget of approximately 60 mil. Chicken Little looks approximately 20 times better. Thus far, who's getting proportionately more for their money?



Edit: to further highlight this point; keep in mind that 10 years ago, Toy Story was made on a budget of 30 mil.

danimat0r
11-16-2005, 03:41 PM
I thought Valiant was a 3D film made and distributed in England (not something I'd compare to cheap outsourcing).

Am I wrong? Did the English studios outsorce the animation

No you're right; I don't consider sending a production to another studio with comparable pay and production costs 'outsourcing'; I was simply using it as a comparison point because Valiant was made on a relatively low budget; around 40 mil to my knowledge. They didn't put much into it, and they didn't get much out of it.

vfx
11-16-2005, 04:05 PM
Um sorry danimat0r,

I can't see how u can compare this miserable mess to Valiant! Yes the story and the villians in Valiant were weak, but visually it was very beautiful....so perhaps vanguard will take more time next round, and pay more attention to story, but the conecpt is there, and it works well for them. Vanguard animation is not a good example for showcasing misuse of 3D.

Slurry
11-16-2005, 04:47 PM
I don't think you can blame the quality strictly on outsourcing. It's not like there aren't any bad animators in the western world.
They could have spent the money here and still have it look like crap. Not that I'm saying it looks like crap.
It seems as though people are trying to make the argument that outsourcing equals crappy product. Every time. No exceptions.
I just don't agree with that and I think it's insulting to talented artists who depend on that work coming from the US.

Art

Brettzies
11-16-2005, 06:50 PM
I don't think you can blame the quality strictly on outsourcing. It's not like there aren't any bad animators in the western world.
They could have spent the money here and still have it look like crap. Not that I'm saying it looks like crap.
It seems as though people are trying to make the argument that outsourcing equals crappy product. Every time. No exceptions.I think the presumption is that outsourcing means the company wants to spend less but try for the same amount of work. Which also could be understood as they want to do it "cheaply." Cheaply usually means lower quality, not always but usually.

I don't think people ever mean to insult the "individual" artists that work on something. But that comes with the territory. If you put something out there, it has to stand on its own with no disclaimers. There are probably many factors to why the quality of this film is the way it is, but whatever those may be, it's pretty obvious that no one is really impressed with it.

switchblade327
11-16-2005, 07:16 PM
I think the presumption is that outsourcing means the company wants to spend less but try for the same amount of work. Which also could be understood as they want to do it "cheaply." Cheaply usually means lower quality, not always but usually.

I don't think people ever mean to insult the "individual" artists that work on something. But that comes with the territory. If you put something out there, it has to stand on its own with no disclaimers. There are probably many factors to why the quality of this film is the way it is, but whatever those may be, it's pretty obvious that no one is really impressed with it.

Exactly my point. There are obviously talented individuals from everywhere (as Im sure most of your studios are as multi-national as mine is!). This isn't meant to knock any artists from other countries or still working overseas. Talent is talent.

For example, the Animatrix guys from the states had some of the shorts made in Japan. That's not 'outsourcing' by my definition. That's hiring an awesome studio with a great reputation to do something that someone else couldn't do. It's a quality-driven decision.

But when an American megabucks corporation like Disney or Lucasfilm, with access to to some of the best talent in the world, has their film made in the Phillipines, China or India or whatever other country *well-known* throughout the business world for their cheap labor, you can be assured it was a bottom-line driven decision.

crazezard
11-16-2005, 08:17 PM
http://vfxworld.com/?sa=adv&code=319b255d&atype=articles&id=2092

im not part of the team who produced this film. but im really really affected with this thread.. why? coz im a filipino workin as a 3d artist here in the phil.
its a bit sad coz its the 1st time the filipinos produced a full lenght 3d animated film and i dnt want to be bias coz im a filipino but i think i have to agree with some of the comments here.

bluehonda
11-17-2005, 02:16 AM
good day to all. well this is an interesting thread on everyones thoughts and comments on this movie. i get and understand everyones point. and i do agree with a lot of you. that if we were to compare this cg film with other international cg films, it would not be at the same level at all. to say it frankly, iam part of the creation of this film. im one of the artists that worked for this film. i appreciate everyones criticism. good and bad. this is our first attempt to produce a cg film. yes we are not the best. but we did our best for this film. now just remember all you people here when you made your first film. i bet you did your best too. so i believe we deserve a little credit. the artists who made this film are very talented. and im proud of everyone who made this film. whether flop or not. you'll never forget your first. hope to hear more comments. and i promise you that next time we will do more, to make films that will please most of you. can't please everyone.

h0tice
11-17-2005, 02:33 AM
the movie is not a $20M budget, it is more less that what it was said in this thread, that's the reason they brought it to southeast asia, the production artists and staff are proud that they did the first ever full cg animation in their country, even though they experienced some "racist" attitude from their former supervisors, but though we will always strive to do it better, out from nothing we built something, and now out from something we can start to do bigger things.

thanks for the comments, we need that as a challenge to boost our talents, at least our work will be shown in the US this december, and to the other countries for the next year.

i'm proud to be a part of that movie, i am a FILIPINO, and that proves that we filipinos has at least a place to compete to other best studios in the future.

as what Linkin Park sung, "i tried so hard, and got so far...". be aware, we will be next to you in the future, or as our goal to be ahead of you in the future, God help us.

wormtongue
11-17-2005, 02:35 AM
i also happen to work on the movie. i know it looks awful. and i'm not here to make any excuses to anybody. i don't owe anyone an explanation either. as far as i'm concerned, with all the comments i've just read, i'll still be doing 3d. work REALLY hard to make sure my s#@%t will come out much better than the previous one and still keep going at it.

"One for the Devil!"

magnusprime
11-17-2005, 02:45 AM
I say try to know your facts before you post....some of the info's are wrong that's why most are jumping to the wrong conclusions.:)

teSSa
11-17-2005, 02:53 AM
IF ONLY people could say "It's not exactly PIXAR, but nice try."
If only people WATCHED the movie first before slamming it altogether.
If only people would stop feeling superior and perhaps volunteer
their "EXQUISITELY supherb talent"(so they say) into training those which they think
are poorly trained.

Then.. the world will be a better place.
:wise:

sabungero
11-17-2005, 02:56 AM
i never had any role in the production of this movie,but i will have to agree with most of what people have to say here. many factors affect the outcome of a movie,and one is LOUSY supervision amongst other things. who knows,given better supervision,this film would turn out even better :-) anyway,its part of the learning curve :-) i am eager to see the next movie this studio will finish and im pretty sure that it will be up to the standards of chicken little/cars :-) these guys were also not only working on a limited budget but also under great stress and things they dont have any command over :-) as for me,the film is quite wholesome and funny and rather promising as well. have a nice day :-)
we must also note that the creative direction prefers a certain 'look' and feel for the movie by the way

sabungero
11-17-2005, 03:11 AM
I don't think you can blame the quality strictly on outsourcing. It's not like there aren't any bad animators in the western world.
They could have spent the money here and still have it look like crap. Not that I'm saying it looks like crap.
It seems as though people are trying to make the argument that outsourcing equals crappy product. Every time. No exceptions.
I just don't agree with that and I think it's insulting to talented artists who depend on that work coming from the US.

Art

wise words

Shaderhacker
11-17-2005, 03:27 AM
I just finished seeing the trailer and it's not bad for a first time. It's clear the technology isn't there for more advanced shaders and lighting, but I guess that's to be expected from a company's first project with very little budget to work with.

The thing that's appalling for me personally is that the movie seems to be all over the place and the story doesn't seem very clear. And the trailer seems to indicate that the characters will visit many places (snow, neighborhoods, woods, etc..). This seems a little chaotic to me.

In any case, congrats on the completion of your first film.

-M

teSSa
11-17-2005, 03:42 AM
More trailers here.

For those who complain that they can't view any available ones. Maybe the ones in this link work:
http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/trailers.php?id=2951&PHPSESSID=ae7458a7edf7a99a5eb7db1ac70a5a6a

Brettzies
11-17-2005, 04:01 AM
IF ONLY people could say "It's not exactly PIXAR, but nice try."
If only people WATCHED the movie first before slamming it altogether.
If only people would stop feeling superior and perhaps volunteer
their "EXQUISITELY supherb talent"(so they say) into training those which they think
are poorly trained.

Then.. the world will be a better place.
:wise:I think your heart is in the right place, but given the amount of cg work produced in the past 10 years from tv shows, game cinematics, and films, this seems far behind judging from the trailer. I mean, there are student films that far surpass this. Even if you go for a simple stylized "do-able" look, there is a lack of appeal and a general asthetic is missing. Storywise, I don't know, but the trailer didn't do much to make me want to go see the film. If anything, I'd go out of morbid curiosity rather then desire.

However, the production is interesting. I read the vfxworld article, and I can assume a fair amount of the responsibility falls to those two or three guys in charge. I've seen this sort of thing before first hand. Like sabungero said, supervision is Huge-uh. From the article, I get the picture that these guys never really had much "real world" experience except for local type stuff and whatever they made on their own. I admire their desire and ability to actually start and finish, but it still doesn't look that great. You can have all the experienced artists you want, but if the guys in charge have a certain unproven "swagger" about them, they could have those great artists produce a whole bunch of hodge podge crap. Then again, they could be really great guys to work for, but the impression I get from the article combined with what we've seen leads me to believe there's a few things missing.

After reading all this, I gotta go back and watch the trailer again when I get home.

switchblade327
11-17-2005, 04:33 AM
First of all, I'm glad to see some of the artists involved chiming in here and I hope no one takes anything I've said as a personal insult. I don't think every one of us has had the luxury of only producing really cool, absolutely top-notch projects. I have a game credit to my name that averaged mid 50% scores on game rankings! That doesn't mean the guys involved weren't all really talented. So please, don't take on of this personal. I'm sure you guys are all great artists and 20 people making a feature is pretty impressive on any budget. And a bad looking project typically isn't the fault of the worker bees behind it.

The vfxworld article gives a lot of insight. The guys said they knew they had to work with a (relatively) small budget so they decided to TRY to make it look like old claymation. That sounds like a decision that rippled through the production in a bad way. If "Team America" had been animated with cg puppets instead of real marionettes but had the same quality of motion, it'd be downright unwatchable.

IF ONLY people could say "It's not exactly PIXAR, but nice try."
If only people WATCHED the movie first before slamming it altogether.
If only people would stop feeling superior and perhaps volunteer
their "EXQUISITELY supherb talent"(so they say) into training those which they think
are poorly trained.

Then.. the world will be a better place.
:wise:

Here's where I'm going to disagree and I'm not going to take back anything I've said earlier. A 2-3 minute trailer a month before release is pretty indicative of the visual quality we can expect of the entire film. If anything, editors are more likely to put their best foot(age) forward in a trailer and it might be above average. We're not judging the complexities of the story by this trailer but we can make pretty informed opinions on the visual style of it.

As for the training thing, there's no shortage of highly skilled film and game animators from major studios working in training or supervisory positions in overseas studios. And while it may not be the most PC thing to say, they are being sent there with the intention of building a cheaper labor force.

Anyway, the guy with the funny pink and blue guy icon said it well: art should never come with an excuse or explanation. And looking at the critiques forum of CG talk, even the best work gets nitpicked.
Not because people think they're better then the artist but because critiques make us do it even better next time.

The world will certainly NOT be a better place when artists don't assess art with a critical eye. Quality comes first; feelings second. Or third. If at all :/

isoparmB
11-17-2005, 05:27 AM
I've read through this thread and all I can say is i feel like a midget standing amongst giants.

I was part of the production of this project, from the inception of the studio up to this day. This very project is the reason why we came into existance as a studio, and I have no regrets of having taken part in the first feature length 3d animated independent feature produced in my country, and having had the opportunity to work again with the most talented individuals I've known.

I have no excuses either about how the quality of our work is perceived by our peers in the animation community. I only have to offer that I and my collegues gave it our all with our limited abilities and resources at the time, everyone from the artists to the producers, to the directors. We were young at it, we came through it, and we can only be better at it the next time around. Please don't scorn humble beginnings.

I've read through the comments and I accept them as honest criticisms on our work. I would expect no less from a forum which serves to further the quality of computer animation through freely expressed ideas and opinions, and I thank the posters here for their honesty if nothing else. However, I beg to differ on the attitude I perceive regarding what others have euphemistically termed as "Outsourcing". If an animation project is sent to an asian or "third world" country for production, why should animators from "first world" countries feel resentful? We have the very same desire to create, to practice our field of expertise, we have the same basic need to earn our living from the very same work that you people do, then if we are asked to do the work why should we be looked down on so in such an impersonal manner? Are we any different?

I have come to understand that many artists, particularly in the States, feel resenful because they perceive that much of the work they could be working on is being sent to other countries. But does that give them the right to look down on these people, and prejudge their work as inferior to theirs? What the hell does "the difference between chinese takeout and 3d artist" mean? Just because the work was done by a Filipino, or Indian, or Chinese, do we take it to be the work of just "Cheap Labor"? Are we to be perceived just as cogs, devoid of any artistict and technical output whatsoever? It's really one of the most dehumanizing things imaginable, and to see it manifest itself here just sucks.

I hope that one day the only determining factor in the greatness of a piece of animation will be the talent an individual artist or a studio brings into fore, irregardless of where it was made. On that regard, rest assured We will be working on that. We Filipinos have our pride, though we don't talk much.

And to those of you who can't view the trailer, I'm really sorry about that. :] We can't even view it from the philippines and we made the entire movie here! But please give it a chance. Cory Edwards wrote a really funny script and I'd hate for our work to be prejudged even before it came out.

teSSa
11-17-2005, 05:42 AM
i hope the general audience (especially children) like it.
and that most professional artists accept it with an open mind.
and heart (even if most say it's not about "heart").
i don't think the limited availability of the trailer is a racial or OS-related attack.
and for a film produced by a studio with less manpower in comparison to
other big name studios, i think it's a step forward for them.
may not be exactly their best work, but it's not all that bad if you reconsider.

MarkusM
11-17-2005, 05:46 AM
There's a lot of interesting and valid points of views here, sure.

I suppose the way I look at a project is from a creative production stand point. How to accomplish something appealing on a limited budget.

In today's climate, with enough money, you can buy production value. So delivering an ok product as long as you have funding and enough time should not be a problem. Of course bad ideas and bad art direction will kill anything however much you throw at it.

So the real trick in our business is how to accomplish something on a limited budget. How do you manage your appetite, your creative aspirations, your look, and your budget to get the best possible result on screen. That's not easy. Especially since it means having a group of people who all buy in to that singular vision, who span the knowledge it takes to do the project. It's balancing the different areas to make the best possible creative.

A complex look cost money to push through a pipe. Many locations the same. You can't skimp in one area because it will really show in the end result. "Cheaper choices" really need to be made at the outset to make the look "the best that it can be", to work to support the story on the budget given.

When you decide on a look for a limited budget film it does require someone to make those balancing choices. Someone who understands the implications. Someone who will be heard early enough.

Oy-vey!

Brettzies
11-17-2005, 05:52 AM
More trailers here.

For those who complain that they can't view any available ones. Maybe the ones in this link work:
http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/trailers.php?id=2951&PHPSESSID=ae7458a7edf7a99a5eb7db1ac70a5a6a I went back and had another look, as well as at the Nicktoons one, because these seemed "clearer." I gotta say, that Nicktoons stuff is crap. All the trailers look bad, too dark and saturated, plus they are heavily compressed and blurry. It takes something that doesn't come off as great to begin with and makes it look worse. I really hate seeing trailers for the first time on the internet.

The above link is better for giving it a fair or better shake I suppose.

My intial reaction is a little be lessened after seeing more detail. However, it still seems behind in a lot of ways, especially motion and just overall look. And after viewing the Happy Feet trailer a few moments ago...well, there's a huge gap in presentation from my point of view. Good luck to it. We'll see how it does soon enough.

switchblade327
11-17-2005, 07:12 AM
I've read through the comments and I accept them as honest criticisms on our work. I would expect no less from a forum which serves to further the quality of computer animation through freely expressed ideas and opinions, and I thank the posters here for their honesty if nothing else. However, I beg to differ on the attitude I perceive regarding what others have euphemistically termed as "Outsourcing". If an animation project is sent to an asian or "third world" country for production, why should animators from "first world" countries feel resentful? We have the very same desire to create, to practice our field of expertise, we have the same basic need to earn our living from the very same work that you people do, then if we are asked to do the work why should we be looked down on so in such an impersonal manner? Are we any different?

I have come to understand that many artists, particularly in the States, feel resenful because they perceive that much of the work they could be working on is being sent to other countries. But does that give them the right to look down on these people, and prejudge their work as inferior to theirs? What the hell does "the difference between chinese takeout and 3d artist" mean? Just because the work was done by a Filipino, or Indian, or Chinese, do we take it to be the work of just "Cheap Labor"? Are we to be perceived just as cogs, devoid of any artistict and technical output whatsoever? It's really one of the most dehumanizing things imaginable, and to see it manifest itself here just sucks.

I hope that one day the only determining factor in the greatness of a piece of animation will be the talent an individual artist or a studio brings into fore, irregardless of where it was made. On that regard, rest assured We will be working on that. We Filipinos have our pride, though we don't talk much.

And to those of you who can't view the trailer, I'm really sorry about that. :] We can't even view it from the philippines and we made the entire movie here! But please give it a chance. Cory Edwards wrote a really funny script and I'd hate for our work to be prejudged even before it came out.

Again, please don't take any of my words to be demeaning to the individual artists involved in the production of this film, or that artists from country X are better/more creative/more technically capable then artists from country Y. That's not my intention to insult anyone and Im sorry if it came off that way.

The outsourcing issue is a touchy subject and I don't want to get too into it here since it has a lot more to do with economics and politics then CG art. To try and explain it as neutrally as I can (and Im bound to fail here), ***it has nothing to do with using lesser talent*** and everything to do with using a favorable exchange rate to get something made for cheaper then it would be domestically.

That and any more explanation I could offer about outsourcing would reek of my own heavy sociopolitical bias and be increasingly off-topic so I'll leave it at that. I'm sure this discussion has been held elsewhere on CGtalk anyway (including the Lucasarts Singapore studio thread).

wormtongue
11-17-2005, 07:30 AM
it's probably because , all of a sudden, people started talking about the movie (how crappy it was, hehehe...etc) and some of my colleagues were kinda emotional about it. i don't know. but as far as i'm concerned, i know i had my first step. cheers for me! nevermind the world, i'm very happy with my own cup.
:D :D :D

yeoj
11-17-2005, 10:27 AM
haven't seen the trailer... :sad:

heard about this during production stage from a friend who worked as a TD there. anyways, congratulations on finishing such a big project. :thumbsup:

ipdesigner
11-17-2005, 01:54 PM
*My Congraulations to all the team members who are involved in this project.:applause:

RobertoOrtiz
11-17-2005, 02:09 PM
One remainder I would like to say to our member is that this is an
INTERNATIONAL forum, this means that people from all over the world
read the site.

-R

Slurry
11-17-2005, 04:14 PM
The outsourcing issue is a touchy subject and I don't want to get too into it here since it has a lot more to do with economics and politics then CG art. To try and explain it as neutrally as I can (and Im bound to fail here), ***it has nothing to do with using lesser talent*** and everything to do with using a favorable exchange rate to get something made for cheaper then it would be domestically.



Good reason to direct frustration and anger to the rich execs of your home country and not the workers in other geographical locations. They shouldn't feel bad for working.
Rich execs inflate the bottom line and keep the lion's share rather than making less overall profit but supporting local families and economy.

That statement isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general statement about outsourcing.

PETRA
11-17-2005, 04:55 PM
To the filipino animators who:

1. can take twice the workload
2. can be a know-it-all guy
3. finish the job before deadline
4. do the job with minimal training
5. do the job without complaining
6. do the job with limited resources
7. have "can do" attitude
8. can take unfair criticism



I salute you!!:bounce: :bounce:

switchblade327
11-17-2005, 05:05 PM
Good reason to direct frustration and anger to the rich execs of your home country and not the workers in other geographical locations. They shouldn't feel bad for working.
Rich execs inflate the bottom line and keep the lion's share rather than making less overall profit but supporting local families and economy.


That's pretty much exactly how I feel about the issue and if it came off any other way, it's a misunderstanding.

danimat0r
11-17-2005, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Slurry
Good reason to direct frustration and anger to the rich execs of your home country and not the workers in other geographical locations. They shouldn't feel bad for working.
Rich execs inflate the bottom line and keep the lion's share rather than making less overall profit but supporting local families and economy.




Actually, the appropriate place to direct frustration for 'inflating the bottom line' would be to state and federal politicians who tax the living hell out of business owners, drain their capital, and make it prohibitively and unappealingly expensive to hire 'local' talent; all under the same erroneous notion assumed above; "Bah, they're rich; they'll always find a way to absorb the costs and it won't alter the makeup of the economy in any significant way." Whoops. Then these same people get indignant when jobs 'inexplicably' go overseas.

slaughters
11-17-2005, 05:36 PM
...The outsourcing issue is a touchy subject...Not Outsourcing, more like a normal Foreign Film production (you wouldn't call a film made in Japan, by Japanese employees, for a Japanese corporation an outsourced product would you?).

The quality of the animated moton is where I have a problem with the film *not* who made it.

rcronin
11-17-2005, 05:58 PM
http://www.apple.com/trailers/weinstein/hoodwinked/trailer/

Slurry
11-17-2005, 06:50 PM
danimat0r: Good point.

Slaughters: If the creators/producers (money people or whatever) are from the Philipines, then I guess you are right, it's a foreign film (to us).
I guess the association with Nickleodeon (which I think is American) leads one to believe it was outsourced.
:shrug:

Art

MadMax
11-17-2005, 07:40 PM
Sorry I came to this thread late, only having just seen the trailer. I am not going to read 8 pages of comments, but I am only going to say to those who can't view it, consider yourself lucky.

I don't think a full bottle of Vodka consumed immediately before viewing would even help.

Sorry if this is going to come off harsh or offensive, but the whole thing was very poorly animated, looked very amateurish, it was all I could do to watch the trailer and even then I thought it was somone's idea of a hoax.

Bsmith
11-17-2005, 08:33 PM
Sorry I came to this thread late, only having just seen the trailer. I am not going to read 8 pages of comments, but I am only going to say to those who can't view it, consider yourself lucky.

I don't think a full bottle of Vodka consumed immediately before viewing would even help.

Sorry if this is going to come off harsh or offensive, but the whole thing was very poorly animated, looked very amateurish, it was all I could do to watch the trailer and even then I thought it was somone's idea of a hoax.

yeah you might want to read the other posts

slaughters
11-17-2005, 09:10 PM
...I guess the association with Nickleodeon (which I think is American) leads one to believe it was outsourced...I just assumed that Nickleodeon just picked it up for US distribution the same way Disney did for "Spirited Away", "Princess Mononoke" and other Studio Ghibli films.

Slurry
11-17-2005, 09:24 PM
Yeah, I really don't know the origins of it. You may very well be right.


Art

BillB
11-17-2005, 10:04 PM
I just assumed that Nickleodeon just picked it up for US distribution the same way Disney did for "Spirited Away", "Princess Mononoke" and other Studio Ghibli films. Producers are american, money is american.

BillB
11-17-2005, 11:53 PM
One remainder I would like to say to our member is that this is an
INTERNATIONAL forum, this means that people from all over the world
read the site. -R Including your next boss, maybe ;)

To the Filipino guys - I think most of the crits offered here have been honest objective ones. Don't take it too hard. Anyone who's worked in this business long enough knows the restraints we have to work under at times. No one is "prejudging" either - we're judging the trailer. Unless it's unfinished work, which seems unlikely in this case.

I do think for US$20m it should have been a *lot* better, but that's almost certainly not the animators' fault. For that money, they could have made it in the US.

gio
11-18-2005, 01:24 AM
i hope that hoodwinked does good business. the Philippines deserves a boom in the cg industry. we have a lot of really talented individuals in the field of arts there just waiting
for a chance to show the world what we can do given the right project and direction.

i saw the trailer and i think its heart is in the right place. i'm proud that we now have our
very first full cg movie that will be seen internationally. so to those who worked on it, know
that there are proud filipinos here in the states who are rooting for this movie. rock on!

fattyLees
11-18-2005, 01:49 AM
I do think for US$20m it should have been a *lot* better, but that's almost certainly not the animators' fault. For that money, they could have made it in the US. __________________


I'm not so sure about that. $20 m US isn't a whole hell of a lot to make a CG feature in the States. I believe Jimmy Neutron was the least expensive at around 30 million. Plus if you factor in the money to pay the big name voice cast then I dont think it is possible at all. I don't remember, but I don't recall Jimmy Neutron having any big name or A list voice tallent...maybe that factored into such an amazingly small budget.


what the hell do I know though...

wormtongue
11-18-2005, 03:07 AM
does everyone thinks that the $20M covers production cost only?

i don't felt like they spent $20M on us (production) at all. i guess it covers
pretty much EVERYTHING aside from the 'late decision' to have high-profile
hollywood stars do the voice-over for some of the characters. :)

bluehonda
11-18-2005, 03:16 AM
thanks for all your comments. we the makers of hoodwinked appreciate all your comments and views on this movie. Salamat!(thankyou).

pioski
11-18-2005, 03:36 AM
:). . . . thanks for all the comments.

BillB
11-18-2005, 03:37 AM
I'm not so sure about that. $20 m US isn't a whole hell of a lot to make a CG feature in the States. I believe Jimmy Neutron was the least expensive at around 30 million. "Jonah" was probably the cheapest theatrical, about $15M I think. I stand by what I said, you could totally do it. Heck, Jimmy was ages ago. I don't doubt that only about 20% of the Hoodwinked budget went offshore.

crazezard
11-18-2005, 03:38 AM
ei guys wat can u say about this...


http://threedy.com/site/forum/showthread.php?p=405276

hoodwinked will compete in the oscars. for best animated film


The Academy has announced today the short-list of the 10 films that will compete for the Best Animated Feature Film in the 2005 Academy Awards competition. And the films are:

Chicken Little, Gulliver's Travel (an IMAX 3D film), Hoodwinked, Howl's Moving Castle, Madagascar, Robots, Steamboy, Tim Burton's Corpse Bride, Valiant, Wallace & Gromit - The Curse of the Were-Rabbit.

It is quite sad that all that made it to this final list are only 10 films, for the rules of the Academy state that this list could have been as long as sixteen, if there were that much eligible entries.

FloydBishop
11-18-2005, 03:49 AM
I was part of the production of this project, from the inception of the studio up to this day. This very project is the reason why we came into existance as a studio, and I have no regrets of having taken part in the first feature length 3d animated independent feature produced in my country, and having had the opportunity to work again with the most talented individuals I've known.

Congratulations on your first film! While I agree with a lot of the comments on some of the animation (specifically on the timing and weight issues), I know this must have been a huge undertaking for your studio to pull off for a variety of reasons, many of which you have listed in your post.

Take with you from this project all you have learned and apply it to your next one. Then take all of that knowledge and apply it to your next one. Read through some of the critiques and ask yourself which points are valid, and work to perfect your craft, but do not take any of the critiques personally. This is the best way to grow as an artist.

I'll go see your film when it opens. :D

leigh
11-18-2005, 04:32 AM
I am going to be brutally honest and say that I am pretty shocked to see this quality in what is supposed to be a feature film. The lip synching doesn't seem to contain any phonemes, the lighting and rendering style is flat, over-saturated and very amateur looking, the characters movement is jerky... everything about this looks like a student project, and not a very good one at that :sad:

I know that's harsh but I am sad to see this. It means that we've reached the point in 3D feature film popularity when the medium becomes so widely spread out that quality standards start to drop drastically.

This film should continue development for another few years, because it still has a long way to go if they want it to look good. I hope that the development studio(s) decide to take a bit longer on this production to really help their animators to grow, and to impress audiences.

isoparmB
11-18-2005, 05:41 AM
Thanks Mr. Bishop for the wonderful advice. :) The best direction to move is forwards. We got a lot of catching up to do in terms of technique and quality. Every time we move five steps, the bar moves another 15. It's exhausting, but exciting in it's own way.

To Leigh, though your idea is sound and well founded, I don't think any artist here would want to go over Hoodwinked again for even one more year. We've already had to redo it many times over for numerous reasons, and we were hoping to focus our efforts on a new project.

Did I mention we did this thing under zero preprod conditions? http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon10.gif Not the most ideal of situations. But the company would never have taken off if we hadn't rushed in on the project.

Nipondigital
11-18-2005, 05:43 AM
First you're angry at marketting. ok
Then angry at browser. ok
Then angry at media player. ok
But you became racists bashing asians. not ok
you're probably loosing jobs over there huh.

So I will give crits on western animation. It's god awful bad compared to Japanese animation. Why can't you make good films like akira, ghost in the shell, final fantasy advent or good tv series like gundam seed, escaflowne, so many.
I cant stand dragging singing in western animations and uncool character designs that look like mcdonald mascots. Story is for kids also. Variety please.
Western games also not at all good. Why only FPS and RTS games popular there? No ingeniuty no variety. Thats why games industry there will be a bust soon. Xbox what? Hehe! Japanese consoles superior.
Most of the games in top charts are created in Japan.
Well you know where Japan is located so I suggest you dont bash Asia and asians.
Just an objective crit on western creativity. dont take it personal. :D

mangolass
11-18-2005, 05:49 AM
I hope that the development studio(s) decide to take a bit longer on this production to really help their animators to grow, and to impress audiences.
They aren't out to "impress" ~ only to produce something they could do within their budget.
They used a Maya software package composed of Maya and Render Maya. Half of the work was done with 4.5 the other half with 5.01.1. Due to the fact that they are independents and are working on a budget of about $15 million, they could not afford to go chasing after upgrades. “We know we [couldn’t] be Monsters, Inc., so [we picked] a style that we could achieve well on this budget, instead of trying to overachieve and doing it poorly,” Cory said.http://vfxworld.com/?sa=adv&code=319b255d&atype=articles&id=2092&page=1

It doesn't seem as if they saved much by outsourcing the 3D work to the Philipines though ~ if Jimmy Neutron was $20 million and this was $15 million, and this looks a lot cheaper than Jimmy Neutron.

LT

mangolass
11-18-2005, 05:55 AM
Well you know where Japan is located so I suggest you dont bash Asia and asians. Just an objective crit on western creativity. dont take it personal. :D

I hope nobody was bashing Asians! In terms of the lack of creativity in making another fairy~tale spoof, just a cheaper one, this was written & directed & financed by Americans, made in English, etc. To blaim the Filipinos who worked on this for the creative & budget decisions made by Americans would be like blaiming the soldiers for going to war in the wrong country ~ you should place any blame higher up!

LT

Shaderhacker
11-18-2005, 06:13 AM
I am going to be brutally honest and say that I am pretty shocked to see this quality in what is supposed to be a feature film. The lip synching doesn't seem to contain any phonemes, the lighting and rendering style is flat, over-saturated and very amateur looking, the characters movement is jerky... everything about this looks like a student project, and not a very good one at that :sad:

Why are you people continuing to bash this film? It's really getting on my nerves. There are about 10 posts that talk about the same thing. I think they GET it!!

Lighten up folks and talk about HOW they can improve! Sheesh..:sad:

I'm sure a LOT of you were weak when you first started so put yourself in their shoes...

-M

magnusprime
11-18-2005, 07:39 AM
guys...thanks for all the constructive ctris that you posted.
it has been a big help to me and my colleagues.

benjotinsay
11-18-2005, 07:45 AM
Thanks guys for all the constructive critism as well as the encouragements.....
This will really help us do better in the future.....
Again Thanks!!!

h0tice
11-18-2005, 08:47 AM
Including your next boss, maybe ;)

To the Filipino guys - I think most of the crits offered here have been honest objective ones. Don't take it too hard. Anyone who's worked in this business long enough knows the restraints we have to work under at times. No one is "prejudging" either - we're judging the trailer. Unless it's unfinished work, which seems unlikely in this case.

I do think for US$20m it should have been a *lot* better, but that's almost certainly not the animators' fault. For that money, they could have made it in the US.

excuse me, if you read my post the budget for the movie is not $20M, less than $20M, if it is, it could be you westernres who'd done it.

just want to correct it.

switchblade327
11-18-2005, 08:56 AM
First you're angry at marketting. ok
Then angry at browser. ok
Then angry at media player. ok
But you became racists bashing asians. not ok
you're probably loosing jobs over there huh.

So I will give crits on western animation. It's god awful bad compared to Japanese animation. Why can't you make good films like akira, ghost in the shell, final fantasy advent or good tv series like gundam seed, escaflowne, so many.
I cant stand dragging singing in western animations and uncool character designs that look like mcdonald mascots. Story is for kids also. Variety please.
Western games also not at all good. Why only FPS and RTS games popular there? No ingeniuty no variety. Thats why games industry there will be a bust soon. Xbox what? Hehe! Japanese consoles superior.
Most of the games in top charts are created in Japan.
Well you know where Japan is located so I suggest you dont bash Asia and asians.
Just an objective crit on western creativity. dont take it personal. :D

If you're going to call me a racist, you can bet I'll take it personally but I think you're not fully considering what's been said already. We're being critical of a 2 minute movie trailer; not Filipino animation or Asian animation in general (where'd you get this from anyway!?)

But rather then keep repeating myself, let me refer you back to page 4...

There are obviously talented individuals from everywhere (as Im sure most of your studios are as multi-national as mine is!). This isn't meant to knock any artists from other countries or still working overseas. Talent is talent.


No Asian bashing here. I'm not sure what to call what you just said though.

h0tice
11-18-2005, 09:09 AM
sIf you're going to call me a racist, you can bet I'll take it personally but I think you're not fully considering what's been said already. We're being critical of a 2 minute movie trailer; not Filipino animation or Asian animation in general (where'd you get this from anyway!?)

But rather then keep repeating myself, let me refer you back to page 4...



No Asian bashing here. I'm not sure what to call what you just said though.

i wonder why that kind of quality of our trailer were published in the net, but refering to the copy of the trailer that we have here in the studio is far better than wat you saw in the net, i wonder why that happen.

anyways thanks again for the crits, we are far better now than yesterday.

we are better in our next render.

young_927
11-18-2005, 09:15 AM
I had a question for people who worked on the hoodwinked,
are you guys still working at the same studio? and if so, are you guys working on another feature ?
or was it one time deal thing?


thanks~

sabungero
11-18-2005, 09:20 AM
as far as i know....yes

i hope people will also look at the 'entertainment' value of this film as well :deal:
theres also a rumored staff position labelled as "in-house gigolo". :buttrock: any takers? :applause:

h0tice
11-18-2005, 09:20 AM
I had a question for people who worked on the hoodwinked,
are you guys still working at the same studio? and if so, are you guys working on another feature ?
or was it one time deal thing?


thanks~

we are now having our Research and Development for the next film that we will be having, testing pipelines and softwares, preparing to the next level.

we don't want to repeat the same mistakes that we have then, doing the movie without having a pre prod.

h0tice
11-18-2005, 09:24 AM
ei guys wat can u say about this...


http://threedy.com/site/forum/showthread.php?p=405276

hoodwinked will compete in the oscars. for best animated film

e ikaw kabayan, what can you say about that? do you have opinion or just want to ride with the opinions of others?

yeoj
11-18-2005, 09:33 AM
wow nice to hear that! you guys rock! :thumbsup:

good luck on your next project! :buttrock:

bluehonda
11-18-2005, 10:01 AM
as hotice said, were working on the new pipeline and doing a lot of RnD. cuz now we have the time. its not a one time deal. cuz were still here. :) we are young at this. so pls bear with us. we are determined and we love our work.

if any of you do get to watch hoodwinked for any reason. give us your insight. good and bad. you can even help us along to improve our craft, if your kind enough. we all want to produce great art. and i hope we all help each other in achieving that.

BillB
11-18-2005, 10:07 AM
ei guys wat can u say about this...
http://threedy.com/site/forum/showthread.php?p=405276
hoodwinked will compete in the oscars. for best animated film I'd say they submitted an entry in time...

BillB
11-18-2005, 10:12 AM
as hotice said, were working on the new pipeline and doing a lot of RnD. cuz now we have the time. its not a one time deal. cuz were still here. :) we are young at this. so pls bear with us. we are determined and we love our work. All the best to your team!! Finishing a film is no easy thing, here's hoping you get better resources this time. Try to spend every minute you can studying the masters, reading the likes of "illusion of life", "animators survival kit" and "acting for animators", and posting your tests and shorts for critique.

ArtisticVisions
11-18-2005, 04:54 PM
I am not a professional animator or in the film industry, so I'm not going to try and speak as either one. For anyone who has worked on this film, please do not take any negative comments that I give too harshly, as you've all created something that I never have.
I'm speaking only as someone who has a passionate love of animation and computer graphics. :love:

Having said that, I am appalled that this film is being marketed at the "Feature Film" level. The production quality is not up there, from the lighting to the character animation to the particle effects to the shading/surfacing - it just says "direct-to-video" release.
I heard somewhere in this thread that there was no Pre-Production pipeline set up and it really shows in the final production: it's never wise to dive into a project without having a good plan on how to accomplish it. :shrug:

If Nick Toon was at all serious at making this film succeed, they should've released it to DVD instead of showing it in the theaters.
EDIT: As far as the "Nick Toon" thing, I say that only if they are indeed the ones who created or are distributing the film. If not... well, the same thing to anyone else distributing it.

Brettzies
11-18-2005, 06:38 PM
If Nick Toon was at all serious at making this film succeed, they should've released it to DVD instead of showing it in the theaters.The title of this thread is very misleading.

I don't think Nickelodeon has anything to do with this film. I haven't seen the Nickelodeon branding on any of the trailers. They are simply hosting the trailers, as they are for several other movies. OpenSeason is on there, Chicken Little too, and they have nothing to do with Nick.

I said it once already in this thread, and I'll say it again. There are no disclaimers when you put a finished product out. It's not a work in progress anymore, it's done. When people are sitting in the theatre they aren't going to have the benefit of this thread or anything else, they'll just have the film to see. Not only that, but it's going to cost them the same amount of money to see this as it will a Pixar film. So, if they leave kind of angry, or just don't go at all...I wouldn't be surprised. That's one of the main reason people are appaulled. They are going to have to spend their own money to see this, so they expect a higher quality.

Having said that, this is cgtalk, so we do have the benefit of digging deeper and seeing why something is the way it is. I for one, appreciate the discussion and insight into the production. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is what it is. We could sit here all day and give you critques and advice on the little things, but it's really the big picture here that is the problem, and that always goes to the people in charge. Leads, sups, directors, and on up. Those are the ones who really need to learn from this. Unfortunately, a lot of that learning comes from being around quality productions or pipelines before you attempt to do something of this magnitude. If this is a "no one's ever done this before" type of production, which it kind of appears to be, simply learning from your mistakes as you go, may not be enough.

As for the artists who had the, shall I say..."priveledge," of working on Hoodwinked, you guys are obviously feeling the sting of the review, but no one is pointing fingers at you. They way I see it, especially for animators is like this: When an actor gets their first opportunity or starring role, it's rare that it will be for a big budget well received film. More likely it will be for a film that no ones ever heard of or they are merely one step above an extra. That's how it goes for cg artists. Sometimes you get lucky and your first film is Toy Story or Jurrasic Park, sometimes it takes you 10 films to get to something "respectable." So just try to enjoy the journey.

j alan hawkins
11-18-2005, 06:40 PM
Why are you people continuing to bash this film? It's really getting on my nerves. There are about 10 posts that talk about the same thing. I think they GET it!!

Lighten up folks and talk about HOW they can improve! Sheesh..:sad:

I'm sure a LOT of you were weak when you first started so put yourself in their shoes...

-M


nice to see shaderhacker looking out for the little guy.

:)

I agree, enough bashing.

As the cliche' phrase goes, if only the best birds sang it would be a quiet forrest... or somthing like that.

Nipondigital
11-18-2005, 08:20 PM
If you're going to call me a racist, you can bet I'll take it personally but I think you're not fully considering what's been said already. We're being critical of a 2 minute movie trailer; not Filipino animation or Asian animation in general (where'd you get this from anyway!?)

But rather then keep repeating myself, let me refer you back to page 4...



No Asian bashing here. I'm not sure what to call what you just said though.

Valid points in my opinion of western animation and games. Well its just an opinion. Dont take it personally. Right?
I didn't point to anyone directly but since you reacted maybe you can see how bad your posts were.

As you said,
"suspect el cheapo outsourcing."
"I'm saving this trailer to show the next person who threatens to send my job to a cheapo overseas outfit."
"But when an American megabucks corporation like Disney or Lucasfilm, with access to to some of the best talent in the world, has their film made in the Phillipines, China or India or whatever other country *well-known* throughout the business world for their cheap labor, you can be assured it was a bottom-line driven decision."
"I'm sure this discussion has been held elsewhere on CGtalk anyway (including the Lucasarts Singapore studio thread)."

That singapore thread is way too much filled with racist remarks.

Maybe its just me but you look down on people who work overseas like the mentioned countries. Too bad you dont know how hard working these people are. Our companies have a lot of subsidiaries already in the Philippines because they work hard, ask for very little and dedicated to the company. I can see why you're also looking down at India having most of the IT industry over there instead of where you're at.
Well maybe this wont happen if western animators weren't overpaid, diva attitude and self centered about their skills. Who wants to work with that? Bottom line its a business. We go where there's talent and we can profit more.

Advantage for us.
Filipinos work hard
Less overheadcost, this is a business
Good talent and learning curve
No divas

Advantage for them
They work in an international production
They get jobs to help their country within their country
They can make their own someday with so many talents


Good thing I'm Japanese I don't have to deal with gaijin crap attitude like what I have read here in cgtalk.

owata, ja ne.

switchblade327
11-18-2005, 08:48 PM
I'll admit, my initial use of 'el cheapo outsourcing' was a bit rude to the guys that made the film and so I apologize for that. But there's nothing racist about discussing outsourcing and how it differs from foreign film production. There's TONS of fantastic animation produced outside the US and I've never suggested otherwise. You're choosing to pick and choose my comments to paint it this way rather then look at the big picture of what's being said.

Never did anyone say that workers in India, China, Phillipines, Europe, Canada, Antarctica or where ever are less skilled, talented or hard-working then Americans. NEVER. Until you find a quote from anyone here where it's been *specifically said* otherwise (hint: you won't), I'd appreciate it if you'd stop accusing us of racism.

ArtisticVisions
11-18-2005, 08:50 PM
Well maybe this wont happen if western animators weren't overpaid, diva attitude and self centered about their skills. Who wants to work with that? Bottom line its a business. We go where there's talent and we can profit more.
Good thing I'm Japanese I don't have to deal with gaijin crap attitude like what I have read here in cgtalk.
Doesn't matter if you're Japanese or American:
Arrogance is still arrogance and ignorance is still ignorance. :shrug:

Brettzies
11-18-2005, 08:56 PM
Good thing I'm Japanese I don't have to deal with gaijin crap attitude like what I have read here in cgtalk. owata, ja ne.I sense a closing of the thread coming, thanks buddy.

I may not be a smart man, but the above comment reads way more derogitory and dare I say "racist" then any other comment in this entire thread. Power ups to the people!

animateddave
11-18-2005, 09:59 PM
I don't give a shit about who made it or where they're from. To me this looks really bad and don't get all preachy about judging a movie by its trailer. What else am I suppose to judge it by? Movie critics? Yeah that'll happen. This could probably cut it on tv on say the cartoon network or even a straight to dvd release but as a feature film it has a long way to go.

Shaderhacker
11-18-2005, 10:13 PM
But there's nothing racist about discussing outsourcing and how it differs from foreign film production.

No, it's not being racist. But you *are* being prejudice about work being farmed out to other countries. I understand and relate to how you feel, but it is wrong and selfish. Other people have to work too.

I would just let it rest.

-M

Shaderhacker
11-18-2005, 10:15 PM
Good thing I'm Japanese I don't have to deal with gaijin crap attitude like what I have read here in cgtalk.

Now you are being racist and prejudice! WTF??

I vote this thread be closed....:sad:

-M

Nipondigital
11-18-2005, 10:31 PM
switchblade327- Well, I like the english language. You can sugarcoat it not to sound insulting. But if you were me reading what you were posting as well as the ones in the singapore thread, you would not need to read the text to find it is insulting. Not everything has to be said or typed to be insulting. The issue is finished(owata) and good bye(ja ne).

ArtisticVisions- Actually it does matter if one's Japanese, American, Hindu, Filipino. Singaporean. As some comments posted show, not just in this thread, how each nationality is looked upon at first impression. It shouldn't be that way that Im treated better because Im japanese and someone else is looked down upon just because they're from India, Philippines. We're all the same lower salary or not.

Brettzies- Sorry, that was sarcasm for foreign crap attitude that I see towards asians. But I do like western cars, movies, women. Just not western animation, games.

animateddave- Yes I agree, its really bad quality but I hope they do better next time.

ArtisticVisions
11-18-2005, 11:10 PM
ArtisticVisions- Actually it does matter if one's Japanese, American, Hindu, Filipino. Singaporean. As some comments posted show, not just in this thread, how each nationality is looked upon at first impression. It shouldn't be that way that Im treated better because Im japanese and someone else is looked down upon just because they're from India, Philippines. We're all the same lower salary or not.
The point I was trying to make (and I'm saying this as polite as can be) is that while you may view certain people's comments as ignorant and arrogant to Asian animators, you're comments display an arrogance and ignorance when it comes to Americans and how they view foreign animation.

I may be an American, but I have no racist preference as to the animation I watch or who created it (I've seen and own many types of animation from the US, Canada, Japan, South Korea, India, Great Britain, Germany, France, and Norway)

It is the quality of the work that I judge, not who made it (and unfortunately, I just don't see the quality that says "feature film" in Hoodwinked :shrug: ).

leigh
11-18-2005, 11:19 PM
Why are you people continuing to bash this film? It's really getting on my nerves. There are about 10 posts that talk about the same thing. I think they GET it!!


Wow, this coming from someone who loves bashing Dreamworks at every opportunity. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

At any rate, the racially-slanted angle that this thread seems to be heading in is not welcome here on CGTalk.

Keep the conversation on the subject of Hoodwinked please, not cultural/racial topics. Thanks.

chrisWhite
11-18-2005, 11:47 PM
Wasn't all that impressed with the trailer, a little contrast and color correction would go a long way, but all around it feels pretty poor. However, I'm really impressed by how graciously those who worked on the film have taken these crits.

BillB
11-19-2005, 01:57 AM
Bottom line its a business. We go where there's talent and we can profit more. Good luck with that... treating artists like that gets us "Hoodwinked". Treating them like artists, and movie making as primarily an art, gets us "The Incredibles".
:)

h0tice
11-19-2005, 02:23 AM
I am not a professional animator or in the film industry, so I'm not going to try and speak as either one. For anyone who has worked on this film, please do not take any negative comments that I give too harshly, as you've all created something that I never have.
I'm speaking only as someone who has a passionate love of animation and computer graphics. :love:

Having said that, I am appalled that this film is being marketed at the "Feature Film" level. The production quality is not up there, from the lighting to the character animation to the particle effects to the shading/surfacing - it just says "direct-to-video" release.
I heard somewhere in this thread that there was no Pre-Production pipeline set up and it really shows in the final production: it's never wise to dive into a project without having a good plan on how to accomplish it. :shrug:



we know that in the beginning already that we need a pre-production pipeline, when they offer this story to us then at the beginning we were told that it would just like be a stop motion animation and we only have one year to finish the project, so we just rig the character according to that level, but as we progress doing things, the producers saw that we can do better than that. so the financier added some money, the story were rewritten, but the characters stay as it is, and there is no more time now for us to re-rig the characters.

but now they learned their lessons, they now let us do the Research and Development before we go to the next.

but again i will take no excuses for the flaws, but i will take the challenges ahead of us.

thank you all.

Smartypants
11-19-2005, 02:48 AM
It's a valiant first attempt. The story could be good, and the story is the most important thing. However, I'm biased; I made a short based on the Little Red Riding Hood story, found on www.cleverevans.com. Nonetheless, story looks good.

Having said that, the animation really needs work. I know the artists who made this are listening. I'd say, focus in two areas: animation and character rigging. And if you're using the Maya default renderer, look into getting some other render options.

I'm disappointed in all of the nasty comments about the image quality. It wasn't that bad. However, it might help to develop your eye a bit; the blacks in some of the shots were way too high.

But keep in mind that Americans love South Park, which is deliberately ugly. (ok, not all Americans love it, but it's been successful.) We love it because it's funny and well written. The story is most important. Yeah, South Park is for TV, and this is a feature film, but are there rules about what an animated feature is supposed to be like? No. It's supposed to be good, whatever that means.

mangolass
11-19-2005, 03:01 AM
But keep in mind that Americans love South Park, which is deliberately ugly. (ok, not all Americans love it, but it's been successful.) We love it because it's funny and well written. The story is most important. Yeah, South Park is for TV, and this is a feature film, but are there rules about what an animated feature is supposed to be like? No. It's supposed to be good, whatever that means.

I love South Park ~ the movie and the TV show ~ in part because it has a brilliant design that works well with the animation style and the humor. The CG was so well worked out that I even didn't know it was CG until I read that on CGTalk last year, and I had been watching it like all my life!

The look, the story, the animation, the humor all work together, and wouldn't be the same if you separated them. You couldn't do a lot of the gags from South Park in a realism style and still have them be funny. You couldn't apply the limited animation from South Park to characters from The Incredibles and still have it look so sharp. You couldn't get away with the same dialog and voices if the design weren't so "underground" looking. I think the key was that it was all conceived and tested together first in animated shorts like Santa vs. Jesus so everyone saw that the humor and the design all worked, before they went on to the full TV show (and later the movie.)

LT

Shaderhacker
11-19-2005, 03:59 AM
Wow, this coming from someone who loves bashing Dreamworks at every opportunity. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

I have never bashed any artist or team of artists that work at Dreamworks (or anywhere) for making a weak quality movie as most of you are doing in this thread. It's enough to hear it from the first 4-5 posters, but then to keep it up is just demoralizing and rude.

Just because I don't like some of Dreamworks' business practices (from having worked there) doesn't mean I'm bashing the company. I have nothing against Dreamworks other than how they conduct their business with employees, their heavy use of pop culture, and their continuous stream of sequels. This isn't being taken personally as there are many ex-Dreamworks employees I know that share the same feelings, so you can douse that fire...


-M

leigh
11-19-2005, 04:25 AM
I have never bashed any artist or team of artists that work at Dreamworks (or anywhere) for making a weak quality movie as most of you are doing in this thread. It's enough to hear it from the first 4-5 posters, but then to keep it up is just demoralizing and rude.

-M

So you're suggesting that no more than 4-5 people should ever reply to a thread about a subject when the topic of discussion is something that is out in the public, up for discussion and open to critique... and happens to be something that is bound to receive negative feedback due to its standard of quality as compared to current film standards? I didn't see any comments about the film that I would consider offensive. We all work on less than stellar projects from time to time, and encountering peoples negative feedback about it is an inevitable fact of life.

Shaderhacker
11-19-2005, 04:44 AM
So you're suggesting that no more than 4-5 people should ever reply to a thread about a subject when the topic of discussion is something that is out in the public, up for discussion and open to critique... and happens to be something that is bound to receive negative feedback due to its standard of quality as compared to current film standards? I didn't see any comments about the film that I would consider offensive. We all work on less than stellar projects from time to time, and encountering peoples negative feedback about it is an inevitable fact of life.

There is a such thing as open criticism and then there is bashing. To me, bashing is when after several comments that something is subpar, the person reading the thread sees all the negative comments, and goes to add just one more to the flame. How many more comments you think these guys need for them to understand that their work is subpar? One more? Two? Ten?

I'm sure they knew way before anyone posted a thread. If I were working there, after reading the first few pages of critiques, I'd get the point.

Ask yourself this question - by the added redundant negative comments that follow; do they in any way contribute positively to this thread?

-M

Julius
11-19-2005, 04:54 AM
This is disgraceful.

Some of you people are a complete joke. I'm sure alot of you would love to get ur chance at a feature film. I'll never post anything here if i get the chance to show off my first one.

There is a difference between critique and bashing.

Leigh you might want to read this:

Before posting, please review the following:


Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.
Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork.

RobertoOrtiz
11-19-2005, 05:03 AM
People enough, lets tone it down one notch.


Lets keep it light, since they are just opinions.

-R

leigh
11-19-2005, 05:06 AM
Leigh you might want to read this:

Before posting, please review the following:


Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.
Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork.


I know those rules well, considering I helped write them. Please do point out exactly where I was impolite or diluted this thread with irrelevant fluff?

Shaderhacker - most people probably don't read beyond the first post before replying. I know I usually don't in this particular forum. You're acting as if people here are going out of their way to insult people - all I see are people posting their opinions. We don't moderate opinions on CGTalk, we moderate flames. People are absolutely entitled to post their opinions, whether good or bad, about the subject of discussion.

Nipondigital
11-19-2005, 05:47 AM
Good luck with that... treating artists like that gets us "Hoodwinked". Treating them like artists, and movie making as primarily an art, gets us "The Incredibles".
:)

You just dont get it. You're comparing a first attempt to "The Incredibles"? Goodluck with that prima donna attitude. This is like NBA, please treat us like superstars, we only earn millions anyway. Hehe
The trailer was not good but you already formed a conclusion that Hoodwink would not do well in theatres? Do you think kids would mind if the animation was not smooth as silk? Story and presentation counts as much as visuals.
Btw, you have the "The Incredibles", we have "Final Fantasy Advent Children". :P

Nipondigital
11-19-2005, 06:06 AM
The point I was trying to make (and I'm saying this as polite as can be) is that while you may view certain people's comments as ignorant and arrogant to Asian animators, you're comments display an arrogance and ignorance when it comes to Americans and how they view foreign animation.

I may be an American, but I have no racist preference as to the animation I watch or who created it (I've seen and own many types of animation from the US, Canada, Japan, South Korea, India, Great Britain, Germany, France, and Norway)

It is the quality of the work that I judge, not who made it (and unfortunately, I just don't see the quality that says "feature film" in Hoodwinked :shrug: ).

I see your point. And I'll say this as polite as can be also. My comments on western animation and games is a personal opinion. Character designs that look like mascot are the trends in western animation. As for games, well Im sure you will admit that most games are FPS and RTS type. I said it needs variety in both media. Did I say anything more insulting as example "Man this quality is like student quality, and not a good student at that." That just sound like professional jealousy after the first 5 comments that say the same thing.
And lastly, it is your opinion that you dont have a preference to what animation you're watching. I dont know you well to debate that or not. But even George Lucas acknowledges the style of Asian animation style more specific. animes. So it is necessary to see what style it is and where its coming from so that we learn what works. We dont want generic looking designs and animation. Everyone wants to establish their own.

RobertoOrtiz
11-19-2005, 06:23 AM
we know that in the beginning already that we need a pre-production pipeline, when they offer this story to us then at the beginning we were told that it would just like be a stop motion animation and we only have one year to finish the project, so we just rig the character according to that level, but as we progress doing things, the producers saw that we can do better than that. so the financier added some money, the story were rewritten, but the characters stay as it is, and there is no more time now for us to re-rig the characters.

but now they learned their lessons, they now let us do the Research and Development before we go to the next.

but again i will take no excuses for the flaws, but i will take the challenges ahead of us.

thank you all.

Thanks for such an honest post, i wish you luck in the future.

Jinian
11-19-2005, 09:44 AM
Regardless of the quality of the animation and the look of it, this feature still happens to entertain, make me laugh and enjoy. I believe the plot was written and presented well, so as to be entertaining throughout the entire film. There was at no point in the duration of the film that i feel i was being "dragged" to watch it any further(unlike Madagascar). Although i am not a part of the making of this studio's first film, i was just recently employed and have gotten the priveledge to watch it before it came out.

Bottom line here is "entertainment value" cause that's what matters most to the great majority of who will view this film(and that is kids). "Hoodwinked" may have come off with poorer visuals and animation compared to what a standard feature film should be like, but do not come to conclusions about the overall "quality" of the film until after it comes out and you've seen it from beginning to end. The trailer doesn't do anything to justify that the film may not be as entertaining as other animated feature films today.

BillB
11-20-2005, 03:17 AM
You just dont get it. You're comparing a first attempt to "The Incredibles"? Goodluck with that prima donna attitude. This is like NBA, please treat us like superstars, we only earn millions anyway. Hehe

Fine, substitute "Toy Story" for "Incredibles". Or any "western" CG feature film. My point was, they treat this as an art first and a business second - something you clearly don't "get". But I'm not surprised.
I appreciate you're annoyed at the bigotry you perceive towards asians here (most of which is nonexistant) but putting "hehe" at the end doesn't do enough to disguise your own... "limits", shall we say.
I've seen enough of Advent Children to know you're still in no position to lecture "westerners" on character design, thanks. Cliched.
Anime and Manga isn't great *animation* it's pretty pictures (if you're lucky), but that's another debate, hehe.

gio
11-20-2005, 07:35 AM
just came back from a 7 pm showing of "harry potter: goblet of fire" here in marin county
a few moments ago. as i was walking towards the line at the boxoffice, i passed by
a poster for "hoodwinked". made me smile as i thought about the hardworking individuals
there in the Philippines who must be excited as heck about this project. you guys have been really gracious in taking the hits some of the people here have dished out. yeah its their opinions, but i know how it feels when 'industry' folks, or just plain folks in general talk down to a project one has worked really hard on. and i'm sure they'd feel the same way if they were in
your shoes. would they handle it as well? who knows. anyway, i just wanted to drop
a note here to cheer you guys on in your next project. learn from your mistakes and keep
on the positive. if theres one thing i've noticed in the industry here in the states is that
there are A LOT of jaded and cynical individuals. since the industry there in the
philippines is still very young, you guys will pretty much pave the way for future projects
that will be seen internationally, so you guys have the chance to define it right way -through positive energy which will fuel your passion. anyway, i'm most likely rambling. potter was an awesome flick by
the way. still waiting to see the hoodwinked trailer on the big screen.

teSSa
11-20-2005, 08:34 AM
Regardless of the quality of the animation and the look of it, this feature still happens to entertain, make me laugh and enjoy. I believe the plot was written and presented well, so as to be entertaining throughout the entire film. There was at no point in the duration of the film that i feel i was being "dragged" to watch it any further(unlike Madagascar). Although i am not a part of the making of this studio's first film, i was just recently employed and have gotten the priveledge to watch it before it came out.

Bottom line here is "entertainment value" cause that's what matters most to the great majority of who will view this film(and that is kids). "Hoodwinked" may have come off with poorer visuals and animation compared to what a standard feature film should be like, but do not come to conclusions about the overall "quality" of the film until after it comes out and you've seen it from beginning to end. The trailer doesn't do anything to justify that the film may not be as entertaining as other animated feature films today.

I could not have said it any better. I may not have had the priviledge of working on this movie, but I wish I had. Perhaps, Jinian was right when he said that the trailer does not do justice for the film. I have seen it, and to be completely honest, I was overwhelmed by the fact that a small company, and a filipino one at that, was behind the making of something with such heartfelt quality.

If this movie didn't have any potential as a feature release, I'm sure the Weinstein Co. would not have given it a second look.

So, cheers. I hope you enjoy watching the movie for the first time. And then again, for the second time, where you can dissect it to the very last pixel and throw us back your helpful comments for better and improved future projects.

Nipondigital
11-20-2005, 09:23 AM
Fine, substitute "Toy Story" for "Incredibles". Or any "western" CG feature film. My point was, they treat this as an art first and a business second - something you clearly don't "get". But I'm not surprised.
I appreciate you're annoyed at the bigotry you perceive towards asians here (most of which is nonexistant) but putting "hehe" at the end doesn't do enough to disguise your own... "limits", shall we say.
I've seen enough of Advent Children to know you're still in no position to lecture "westerners" on character design, thanks. Cliched.
Anime and Manga isn't great *animation* it's pretty pictures (if you're lucky), but that's another debate, hehe.

SUbstitute one mascot filled feature film for another mascot filled feature film. Toy Story? Variety please. I'll give you one that I think is a good "western animation", I like Titan AE. I think its different than the majority of what's made there. But I can't think of anything else.
Art first businese second? The two cannot exist without each other. Just like what happened to this film saying that $20m was spent to make it. Its definitely less than that rumor.
I know my "limits". Everyone has a "limit". Do you mr. know it all?
You say nonexistent because you're not asian so you wont feel a thing.
Well if you didn't like Advent maybe you like Spirits within better? The designs were made to appeal to you like Starship Troopers. What a mistake that was for Square. Beautriful vfx but uninspiring generic character design.
Actually manga relies more on content that's why they dont spend hours to perfectly lip sync voices. As long as the story is well written and well presented. Its not pretty pictures. Its the same as comics. So many ugly looking comics in Japan with black and white. Who cares the story is good. I do like pretty pictures in marvel and image comics though, the visual quality is way up there. But again same old latex costume superheroes gets boring.

Brettzies
11-20-2005, 10:42 AM
SUbstitute one mascot filled feature film for another mascot filled feature film. Toy Story? I know my "limits". Everyone has a "limit". Do you mr. know it all?.Now the pot really is calling the kettle black. And, since you used TitanAE as refrence, you're losing credibility fast. Personally, I actually like and own TitanAE, plus one of my old leads is on there in the behind the scenes so it's nastolgic. However, most people over here consider it to be an abomination. Which leads me to believe you just have a difference in taste making this whole argument pointless and baseless. Good, bad, elite, authentic, retarded...who cares.

As for BillB(your mr.know it all), he knows a thing or two about producing quality cg on a short time frame and shorter budget. Maybe his thoughts aren't up to your narrow view of the world but his comments at least make sense, come from experience, and contribute to the discussion of the independent film in question.

Anyway, I'm sure he can speak for himself, but you just seem to want to poke everyone in the back with a fondu fork until they turn around and say with a Meatwad accent, "you done your job good boy."

I'm gonna try to go see Hoodwinked when it comes out. I've said all I can about the preception this film is giving us. Now I'll have to see if any of the film as a whole can transcend the negative impression. I had hopes for Valiant, and I was very very disappointed with that one. More so on the overall story and feel, not so much the look. Maybe this will be the opposite.

h0tice
11-20-2005, 11:27 AM
just came back from a 7 pm showing of "harry potter: goblet of fire" here in marin county
a few moments ago. as i was walking towards the line at the boxoffice, i passed by
a poster for "hoodwinked". made me smile as i thought about the hardworking individuals
there in the Philippines who must be excited as heck about this project. you guys have been really gracious in taking the hits some of the people here have dished out. yeah its their opinions, but i know how it feels when 'industry' folks, or just plain folks in general talk down to a project one has worked really hard on. and i'm sure they'd feel the same way if they were in
your shoes. would they handle it as well? who knows. anyway, i just wanted to drop
a note here to cheer you guys on in your next project. learn from your mistakes and keep
on the positive. if theres one thing i've noticed in the industry here in the states is that
there are A LOT of jaded and cynical individuals. since the industry there in the
philippines is still very young, you guys will pretty much pave the way for future projects
that will be seen internationally, so you guys have the chance to define it right way -through positive energy which will fuel your passion. anyway, i'm most likely rambling. potter was an awesome flick by
the way. still waiting to see the hoodwinked trailer on the big screen.

geeez... thanks for the infos gio.

Nipondigital
11-20-2005, 12:17 PM
Now the pot really is calling the kettle black. And, since you used TitanAE as refrence, you're losing credibility fast. Personally, I actually like and own TitanAE, plus one of my old leads is on there in the behind the scenes so it's nastolgic. However, most people over here consider it to be an abomination. Which leads me to believe you just have a difference in taste making this whole argument pointless and baseless. Good, bad, elite, authentic, retarded...who cares.

As for BillB(your mr.know it all), he knows a thing or two about producing quality cg on a short time frame and shorter budget. Maybe his thoughts aren't up to your narrow view of the world but his comments at least make sense, come from experience, and contribute to the discussion of the independent film in question.

Anyway, I'm sure he can speak for himself, but you just seem to want to poke everyone in the back with a fondu fork until they turn around and say with a Meatwad accent, "you done your job good boy."

I'm gonna try to go see Hoodwinked when it comes out. I've said all I can about the preception this film is giving us. Now I'll have to see if any of the film as a whole can transcend the negative impression. I had hopes for Valiant, and I was very very disappointed with that one. More so on the overall story and feel, not so much the look. Maybe this will be the opposite.

So Titan AE is considered as an abomination there? Thank you it just supports my point and opinion. I would never call it an abomitaion. However, seeing the trend of the last decade feature films coming out with mascot characters, It doesn't surprise me that most would not like it. And now Im not surprised why few if any of the same type as Titan AE of animation and design dont get developed there. Its a business after all.
Looking at hoodwink,its obvious that it was developed by mascot loving people. But I would not call it an abonimation either. I reserve my opinion on the film after I have watched it and see how it was presented. The low standard trailer here does not mean student class, sucky, godawful, need to drink a vodka to enjoy this thing, el cheapo outsourcing film. Sometimes it does but sometimes it doesn't. So I'll just wait till it comes out before making a judgement.
It says Know_It_All under his nick. Nothing personal. Right?

Brettzies
11-20-2005, 02:46 PM
It says Know_It_All under his nick. Nothing personal. Right?Uh...yeah, I don't see "Mr." though. Dude, give it up. People know when they are being insulted. Even through email. If you don't think you come off even worse...well.:shrug:

animateddave
11-20-2005, 02:58 PM
Well if you didn't like Advent maybe you like Spirits within better?


I think watching paint dry is more entertaining than spirits within.


Actually manga relies more on content

Twelve year old big boobed girls getting boned by tenticles? ;)

ArtisticVisions
11-20-2005, 04:48 PM
Ah, I can debate a little bit :D (I'm bored, anyways):

Character designs that look like mascot are the trends in western animation.
Yeah, there sure isn't any mascots seen in anime, is there? :D

And lastly, it is your opinion that you dont have a preference to what animation you're watching. I dont know you well to debate that or not.But even George Lucas acknowledges the style of Asian animation style more specific. animes. So it is necessary to see what style it is and where its coming from so that we learn what works. We dont want generic looking designs and animation. Everyone wants to establish their own.
1. No, I don't care who made an animation or which country it came from, but that doesn't mean I don't watch one style over the other (heck, half my animation collection consists of anime films and series); however, now we're dealing with more than just watching a film based on the quality of the animation: it's also based on the story, character, art, and music preferences of the viewer. There are some things that certain animes give me more than American animations, just as there are some things that certain American animations give me more than anime films (and so on and so forth with other countries' animations).
For me, it all comes down to the quality.

2. I'm suprised that someone from Japan refers to all Asian animation as "anime"; I was under the impression that Japanese artists/animators felt that only Japanese animation could be refered to as "anime" (just as Japanese comic art and Korean comic art is refered to as "manga" and "manhwa" respectively).

So Titan AE is considered as an abomination there? Thank you it just supports my point and opinion. I would never call it an abomitaion. However, seeing the trend of the last decade feature films coming out with mascot characters, It doesn't surprise me that most would not like it. And now Im not surprised why few if any of the same type as Titan AE of animation and design dont get developed there.
I didn't hate Titan AE, I just didn't care for it very much :shrug: . In my eyes, it seemed like the creators didn't really know which direction to take the film's story and characters: to use a traditional "American animation" influence or use a more "anime" influence instead. (the same could also be said for Disney's Treasure Planet)

Nipondigital
11-20-2005, 07:20 PM
I think watching paint dry is more entertaining than spirits within.



Twelve year old big boobed girls getting boned by tenticles? ;)

That's why I said it was a mistake to make Spirits Within like Starship Troopers characters to appeal there. That was a creative decision from Square which they paid for. Do you speak ingrish? That was sarcasm if you still dont get the point between Advent and Spirits within. Spirits was a major flop everywhere.

I see you watch hentai. Visions indeed. But we're talking about feature films here ArtisticVisions. Geez!

Regarding mascots, what's a better term? My english is not good. I can't even remember any mascot filled feature films in the last 5 years made in japan. Can you point them out?
But I cant point out any non mascot filled character made there besides Titan AE. Treasure Planet is ok but its already based on existing characters so it doesn't count.
And your impression that japanese artist/animators refer only japanese made animations as anime is off. Its hard for a japanese to say cartoons anyway so we call everything anime or manga even though we know the difference. As for the general public here its all anime regardless of where they come from. Its all otaku stuff for the general public.

ArtisticVisions
11-20-2005, 07:53 PM
I see you watch hentai. Visions indeed. But we're talking about feature films here ArtisticVisions. Geez!
The hell? I don't watch hentai! :surprised

animateddave
11-20-2005, 08:55 PM
That's why I said it was a mistake to make Spirits Within like Starship Troopers characters to appeal there. That was a creative decision from Square which they paid for. Do you speak ingrish? That was sarcasm if you still dont get the point between Advent and Spirits within. Spirits was a major flop everywhere.


No but I speak english and by the way on a web forum its typing not speaking so theres no emotion or overtones in what you write, so I'm sorry I missed your oh so witty sarcasm. For anyone to think that the mistake of spirits was its character designs is just retarded. Most people I know and talked though liked the design. What they didn't like was the shit story and boring pace.

Oh and fyi, "know-it-all" is a title that cgtalk gives you after you reach a certain post count.

agreenster
11-20-2005, 10:48 PM
This film could have actually been funny. There are funny parts, good voice acting, and okay writing. In an industry full of beautiful animation (but horrid storylines) along comes a film with the exact opposite. There were parts that actually made me laugh ("I usually wear it", the turtle part, the "akward" part, "my momma's half loon" part, the "creepy guy" part, all VERY hilarious!) but were so poorly animated and poorly modeled, that I couldnt enjoy it. Try watching the video minimized to see what I mean.

So MAN, what a backwards film!!

BillB
11-20-2005, 11:18 PM
It says Know_It_All under his nick. Nothing personal. Right?
That's a default for someone with my number of posts, to the best of my knowledge. Which if nothing else is a lesson in hanging around somewhere long enough to know the lay of the land before shooting your mouth off.
If there's a mod still listening ;) that's the second time someone has hassled me for being a "know it all" - maybe that description should get changed.

Titan A.E.!? Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

animateddave
11-21-2005, 12:16 AM
If there's a mod still listening ;) that's the second time someone has hassled me for being a "know it all" - maybe that description should get changed.


You do know that you can change that in your usercp right?

BillB
11-21-2005, 12:55 AM
You do know that you can change that in your usercp right? I did have a noodle around, but I musta missed it. Spurred by the promise of success, I shall venture back to the CP!!
Cheers :)

Edit : Ah, that's better!

bluehonda
11-21-2005, 01:17 AM
to the members of cg talk that have spoken about our movie, i thankyou. all i can say is- " we hear you." with all your comments- we think, and ponder, and examine. and surely we will research and develop our skills, our company. we do not stand here saying- hey! look we're the next best movie, or we kick-ass than most films. we claim nothing. this film was a priviledge for us. each film that we will make - we will view it as a priviledge, to be a part of that film; whether international or local. we are happy with our film. and i know some of you would say- "you shouldn't be, cuz it sucks!" and thats ok. cuz that doesn't hurt us really. cuz i know that criticism taken positively will push us to another level. and we are willing to step up.

isoparmB
11-21-2005, 02:25 AM
To everyone out there who either can't view it because there not in the States (like me) or just think the trailer is just dog gone awful, we have posted a better version of the trailer on our official site. This one is closer to the actual quality of the movie:

hoodwinkedthemovie.com

As far as I know we've been able to view it on Windows, the techs here are trying to get my linux machine to view it, so I guess it's possible on that platform too.

Please feel free to view it and see if your opinion on it improves a bit. ;)

Thanks.

ArtisticVisions
11-21-2005, 02:52 AM
To everyone out there who either can't view it because there not in the States (like me) or just think the trailer is just dog gone awful, we have posted a better version of the trailer on our official site. This one is closer to the actual quality of the movie:

hoodwinkedthemovie.com

As far as I know we've been able to view it on Windows, the techs here are trying to get my linux machine to view it, so I guess it's possible on that platform too.

Please feel free to view it and see if your opinion on it improves a bit. ;)

Thanks.
I don't have the first trailer up this minute (so I can't do a complete comparision), but from watching this new trailer, the overall quality seems to be a heck of a lot better than what I remember from the first.
(wonder why Apple put that other trailer on their site if it wasn't the final version?)

BillB
11-21-2005, 04:42 AM
To everyone out there who either can't view it because there not in the States (like me) or just think the trailer is just dog gone awful, we have posted a better version of the trailer on our official site. This one is closer to the actual quality of the movie:
hoodwinkedthemovie.com
Ok, that helps a bit. Definitely spend more time on your lip-sync, and character animation in general particularly action scenes - the guy tumbling in the window, the woodsman running along cutting trees, and the rescue guy dropping granny then turning and walking away were both good examples of animation that needed a lot more work.
The turtles yelling "Run!" was a hoot, nicely done :)
From the sounds of your experience, pipeline issues and direction, you guys did really well. A clear case of the old "good, fast, cheap - pick two".

isoparmB
11-21-2005, 04:53 AM
Ok, that helps a bit. Definitely spend more time on your lip-sync, and character animation in general particularly action scenes - the guy tumbling in the window, the woodsman running along cutting trees, and the rescue guy dropping granny then turning and walking away were both good examples of animation that needed a lot more work.
The turtles yelling "Run!" was a hoot, nicely done :)
From the sounds of your experience, pipeline issues and direction, you guys did really well. A clear case of the old "good, fast, cheap - pick two".

Thanks BillB. Actually, that Woodsman was a big pain all throughout the production. The legs are just too thick to avoid any penetration, aw well. On that window shot we had to manually adjust the deformations, and you had to compensate everytime he walked cause the socks would slip through the legs. We even had to set up controllers for that and the shorts. Our design guys even suggested much later in the prod that it would have been much better if the legs were tapered to avoid the problem altogether.

instantcoffee
11-21-2005, 06:21 AM
Heh. It wasn't just the woodsman. We had problems with EVERY character in the movie simply because (and I think it's been posted so many times before) we didn't have pre-prod. But still, no excuses.

Here's a shout out to all my comrades! Inspite of all the racket that's been going on upstairs, we're still going to continue doing what we love to do... and that's to make our own kind of racket!

To the guys who've made their critiques/comments, thanks. Already, we've learned from our mistakes and are taking great strides in improving our craft. Presently, our tech guys are developing a voice operated rigging set-up.

Just trying to lighten up the mood. Bad job, huh? Oh, well. Whatever.

Nipondigital
11-21-2005, 06:30 AM
No but I speak english and by the way on a web forum its typing not speaking so theres no emotion or overtones in what you write, so I'm sorry I missed your oh so witty sarcasm. For anyone to think that the mistake of spirits was its character designs is just retarded. Most people I know and talked though liked the design. What they didn't like was the shit story and boring pace.

Oh and fyi, "know-it-all" is a title that cgtalk gives you after you reach a certain post count.

Well if you didn't get the sarcasm about Spirit Within I can't talk to you to get it. :D
Obviously you dont know that character design and story are intertwined. Those typical merc type characters were made to appeal to starship troopers, aliens movie, doom game loving fans which ofcourse is the trend there. Very typical and not at all original. Again big mistake for Square! Would they be fit for a story and environment as lets say, Lord of the Rings? So who's retarded now? Look at the games churning out there and tell my opinion has no basis. Its business as usual so they dont try anything new.

Just look at hoodwink. Character designs fall in the mascot category. Its not an art decision as someone had said that art is separate from business. I believe it is more of a business decision. Something that could be merchandised after the movie is shown. To think about it that's probably why the last decade only mascot filled feature films are coming out there. Its business after all and they're afraid to take chances.
But ofcourse George Lucas is the best merchant of them all! That no one can dispute. :D

BillB
11-21-2005, 07:35 AM
Just look at hoodwink. Character designs fall in the mascot category. Can you explain a bit further what you mean by "mascot" Mitsurugi? I think I know what you're getting at (cute, cuddly, appealing, marketable) but it would help to be sure! As you said, your English (which seems fine!) may be getting in the way. Almost worth starting a discussion over in GD on this point, if other haven't done it to death already and we can keep it civil :)

I guess one of the nice things about the likes of Tripplets of Belleville and Burton's work is the different character design, and it would be good to see CG push the limits. As you say, it is a business too though, and taking risks on $80m films is unhealthy. Heck, we're making one for a LOT less than that, and we're reluctant to take risks.

Also, there's a limited audience for "out there" stuff, if you have a story to tell, you want it to appeal to a wide audience, and certain characteristics have been shown to do so. "Asian" designs are no less guilty, and in fact if anything distill things down even more than we do. Also seem to focus on humans for the most part, perhaps we in the west have a different relationship with animals? Or do I just need to do get out more when it comes to asian animation styles?

What are peoples favourite "alternative" animations, character-wise? One's the step outside the square? I've mentioned a couple of mine. Head over to General Discussion and I'll start a thread there...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=2840234

BillB
11-21-2005, 07:38 AM
Our design guys even suggested much later in the prod that it would have been much better if the legs were tapered to avoid the problem altogether. Yeah, if you ain't gonna see it, don't model it! Or at least, do what you have to to keep it from penetrating. 20/20 hindsight, eh :)

isoparmB
11-21-2005, 07:42 AM
Well if you didn't get the sarcasm about Spirit Within I can't talk to you to get it. :D
Obviously you dont know that character design and story are intertwined. Those typical merc type characters were made to appeal to starship troopers, aliens movie, doom game loving fans which ofcourse is the trend there. Very typical and not at all original. Again big mistake for Square! Would they be fit for a story and environment as lets say, Lord of the Rings? So who's retarded now? Look at the games churning out there and tell my opinion has no basis. Its business as usual so they dont try anything new.

Just look at hoodwink. Character designs fall in the mascot category. Its not an art decision as someone had said that art is separate from business. I believe it is more of a business decision. Something that could be merchandised after the movie is shown. To think about it that's probably why the last decade only mascot filled feature films are coming out there. Its business after all and they're afraid to take chances.
But ofcourse George Lucas is the best merchant of them all! That no one can dispute. :D

Actually no, Hoodwinked does not fall under the mascot category as it wasn't our director's intention to do those designs based off marketing considerations, it was the Edward's brothers brain child to begin with, they basically wanted to tell a story with sharp humor that anyone would be able to relate to. I think the mascot category is just an oversimplification, just as silly as if someone were to label all anime as hentai, which is clearly not the case.

isoparmB
11-21-2005, 08:33 AM
To the guys who've made their critiques/comments, thanks. Already, we've learned from our mistakes and are taking great strides in improving our craft. Presently, our tech guys are developing a voice operated rigging set-up.


Whoa! As in, Putang Ina! :eek: Why don't I know about this~!?!?

Nipondigital
11-21-2005, 09:35 AM
Can you explain a bit further what you mean by "mascot" Mitsurugi? I think I know what you're getting at (cute, cuddly, appealing, marketable) but it would help to be sure! As you said, your English (which seems fine!) may be getting in the way. Almost worth starting a discussion over in GD on this point, if other haven't done it to death already and we can keep it civil :)

I guess one of the nice things about the likes of Tripplets of Belleville and Burton's work is the different character design, and it would be good to see CG push the limits. As you say, it is a business too though, and taking risks on $80m films is unhealthy. Heck, we're making one for a LOT less than that, and we're reluctant to take risks.

Also, there's a limited audience for "out there" stuff, if you have a story to tell, you want it to appeal to a wide audience, and certain characteristics have been shown to do so. "Asian" designs are no less guilty, and in fact if anything distill things down even more than we do. Also seem to focus on humans for the most part, perhaps we in the west have a different relationship with animals? Or do I just need to do get out more when it comes to asian animation styles?

What are peoples favourite "alternative" animations, character-wise? One's the step outside the square? I've mentioned a couple of mine. Head over to General Discussion and I'll start a thread there...

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=2840234

Finally you understand what I'm trying to say. Mascot meaning whymsy? I dont believe its because its animals or human aspects. Toy Story, Irobots, Shrek, they're all whymsy characters not necessarilly animals or humans. That's why I mention Titan AE because when I saw it I thought, wow this is something different made from the west. I liked it.
Yes, there's a limited audience for "out there" but it doesn't stop imagination to produce films like Miyazaki's. I bet most people there might consider it an abomination. But atleast its different.
As I said its a business, but sometimes we have to take risks. Some succeed some fail(Spirits Within was a failure for Japan).



IsoparmB- A funny story based on little red riding hood? Im not familiar with the term hoodwinked btw. I'm not so sure if your director intention didn't consider the market for the west. Im sure he did. The characters seem mascot to me. But its just me someone else might see them not so whymsy. But of course the artist and animator has nothing to do with it, its the powers that be that decide.
Yes I agree, anyone who labels all anime as hentai is wrong and probably watching it. Haha! Dont want to point fingers. :D

isoparmB
11-21-2005, 10:44 AM
IsoparmB- A funny story based on little red riding hood? Im not familiar with the term hoodwinked btw. I'm not so sure if your director intention didn't consider the market for the west. Im sure he did. The characters seem mascot to me. But its just me someone else might see them not so whymsy. But of course the artist and animator has nothing to do with it, its the powers that be that decide.
Yes I agree, anyone who labels all anime as hentai is wrong and probably watching it. Haha! Dont want to point fingers. :D

O. The word hoodwink means to trick someone, or to conceal the truth from someone. I guess it's a play on the theme that not everything on the surface is as it appears for the characters, and of course a pun on Red's hood.

The project was initially for a straight to video release in the US, but the producers saw the output and in mid prod decided to go for full feature length.

ThomasMahler
11-21-2005, 11:44 AM
Let's just wait and see how successful this one will be.

Dennik
11-21-2005, 02:33 PM
I think the film has some potential based on the funny dialogs. But then the mediocre animation and design doesn't let it float. I would forgive them for bad design if only character animation was good. But not both. :shrug:

animateddave
11-21-2005, 03:18 PM
Well if you didn't get the sarcasm about Spirit Within I can't talk to you to get it. :D
Obviously you dont know that character design and story are intertwined. Those typical merc type characters were made to appeal to starship troopers, aliens movie, doom game loving fans which ofcourse is the trend there. Very typical and not at all original. Again big mistake for Square! Would they be fit for a story and environment as lets say, Lord of the Rings? So who's retarded now? Look at the games churning out there and tell my opinion has no basis. Its business as usual so they dont try anything new.

Just look at hoodwink. Character designs fall in the mascot category. Its not an art decision as someone had said that art is separate from business. I believe it is more of a business decision. Something that could be merchandised after the movie is shown. To think about it that's probably why the last decade only mascot filled feature films are coming out there. Its business after all and they're afraid to take chances.
But ofcourse George Lucas is the best merchant of them all! That no one can dispute. :D

Oh please, you act as if the character designs in spirits was holding it down. Sure the characters and story should fit but again the problem of spirits wasn't the characters.
How many shows do you guys have over there where people are running around with swords but then theres also mechs? As for mascots, you guys certainly don't know anything about that do you? I mean theres now big boobed 12 year old, big boobed cat girls, or big boobed bird girls right?

Nipondigital
11-21-2005, 10:39 PM
Oh please, you act as if the character designs in spirits was holding it down. Sure the characters and story should fit but again the problem of spirits wasn't the characters.
How many shows do you guys have over there where people are running around with swords but then theres also mechs? As for mascots, you guys certainly don't know anything about that do you? I mean theres now big boobed 12 year old, big boobed cat girls, or big boobed bird girls right?

Again, character and story are intertwined. The theme of Spirits was flawed trying to appeal to western culture. I'm sure few would say the quality was bad but even that high quality didn't save it from being a bad film. So now this film hoodwink doesn't have quality animation but maybe it will still be ok. It has potential.So lets wait and see.
Atleast you notice that the characters are people with sword, mechs, big boobed 12 year old, big boobed cat girls, or big boobed bird girls, isn't that different? Not all whymsy characters. Right?

ArtisticVisions
11-22-2005, 12:14 AM
Finally you understand what I'm trying to say. Mascot meaning whymsy? I dont believe its because its animals or human aspects. Toy Story, Irobots, Shrek, they're all whymsy characters not necessarilly animals or humans. That's why I mention Titan AE because when I saw it I thought, wow this is something different made from the west. I liked it.
For me, "mascot" refers to the elements of a film (characters especially) that are or can be used for in products/merchandise to make the studio money (toys, models, clothing, books, etc.); being "whimsy" or "funny" has nothing to do with it.
I think you can agree with many of the anime series out there, there are many mascots being used to turn a profit for their studios. :rolleyes:

As I said its a business, but sometimes we have to take risks. Some succeed some fail(Spirits Within was a failure for Japan)...
... Again, character and story are intertwined. The theme of Spirits was flawed trying to appeal to western culture. I'm sure few would say the quality was bad but even that high quality didn't save it from being a bad film.
Spirits failed primarily because it had nothing to do whatsoever with Final Fantasy (for everyone else who wasn't a FF fan, it was generic Sci-Fi with bland uninspired characters).

velarde
12-22-2005, 05:29 PM
Wasn't going to get into this... but since my hobby is animation (I've just dabbled in it a liiiitle bit and not good at it by any means). Here's my opinion ON THE MOVIE (for what it's worth)

I saw the Trailer and my first impression was that the animation quality wasn't that great (compared to other stuff I've seen recently) but it wasn't awful and on the positive it DID me make me smile (the dialogue) and I guess the story could work. I Liked the squirrel... :)

Hey, Beavis and Butthead worked.. and the animation was VERY crappy, as well as South Park (That's already been mentioned), of course they already had a following from TV that they developed through the years...

On a different note, it would be interesting to see samples of work from the people that have expressed negative comments about the quality of the animation. I clicked on their profile and couldn't find a website with samples (in 95% of the cases)

P.D. Good luck to the guys that worked on it , and I'm sure their next production will be much better ( we all learn from our past projects and mistakes) Reading about all the problems and time frame you had you did a good job :thumbsup:
(The guys at Pixar and such have a couple of years to make their movies and MUCH more resources...

P.D2. Excuse my english/spelling

fjv

switchblade327
12-22-2005, 08:50 PM
On a different note, it would be interesting to see samples of work from the people that have expressed negative comments about the quality of the animation. I clicked on their profile and couldn't find a website with samples (in 95% of the cases)
fjv

Why does this matter? Do you ask for a business card and a resume from anyone who offers their opinion on a work that is publically available to comment on, so that you can judge the value of their opinion based on their credentials and job title? Or do you just consider what they say, look at your work again and then decide if you agree with them or not? I expect I'd get better advice from a Pixar animator then a 1st year art student, but that doesn't mean the Pixar guy will always be right (ok, well they probably would be!) or the student will always be wrong.

There is a huge difference between stating "this is not good quality animation" and saying "I'm better then you" or "This work was done by inferior artists". Despite what some of the more adversarial members here would like to think, I'm quite certain that the others and myself who've expressed this opinion were only making the first of those three statements.

Capel
12-22-2005, 10:30 PM
Again, character and story are intertwined. The theme of Spirits was flawed trying to appeal to western culture.

i think the operative word here is "trying", because the movie did horribly here. not many people liked it, and i guarantee you it's because of the STORY. what does that tell you?

i still don't know what you mean by "mascot" characters. You mean, appealing? Likeable? You talk about having a daring style? man, ALL anime looks practically the same, and you can quote me on that. Big eyes, sharp features, crazy hair, big breasts, short skirts, robots and sword fights. there you go. i pretty much summed it all up for you. you know, your posts just make you seem angry at the western world. take your elitist attitude somewhere else.

As for hoodwinked, yeah the quality is bad, but story is king. looks like we'll just have to wait and see.

Capel
12-22-2005, 10:35 PM
(The guys at Pixar and such have a couple of years to make their movies and MUCH more resources...



speaking for animation, you can't blame work THAT bad on lack of time/resources. blame it on lack of talent/understanding of animation principles. but it's a new industry over there, so like anything, it's gonna take some time.

Dominique
12-25-2005, 10:38 PM
Oh dear, just saw the trailer,

Now there are two things not to mix!
1: the people who worked on it,
great for you guys to have a job and it happens a lot that we are doing excellent work but
the film or show is just not worth it, and that's not our problem, it's just sh---y sometimes.
2: the film; from what I've seen; lightning, animation, rendering, characters, humor and the global look just don't please me, so I won't go seeing it.

cheers,

CIM
12-26-2005, 05:05 AM
From the trailer, this movie looks like something that should have gone straight to DVD or maybe cable TV.

phantomworkshop
12-26-2005, 08:31 AM
I just wanted to say that I respect the artists and the studio for working as hard as they did, and I'm sure the target audience (the children) will love it. I will check it out as well soon, I thought it looked good on the Trailer.

BoydLake
12-26-2005, 09:37 PM
Looks like it's really true. You really do get what you pay for.

201
12-28-2005, 02:21 AM
I saw the trailer in the theaters a while back... I'm surprised that it's actually a feature-length film. The visual quality doesn't look as good as some VERY old PBS CG shows. It looks like a bunch poses and someone forgot to add curves. I think this would have looked better if it was cell or claymation.

gamedeveloper
12-28-2005, 02:08 PM
I just saw the trailer in theatres. Audience response was fairly neutral. No comments about poor animation. In fact, a couple next to me thought it had something to do with Shrek?!

(Probably due to fairytale characters)

Breinmeester
12-28-2005, 10:13 PM
From everything I've seen of this movie I get the idea that it is very funny but that the visuals (design and renders) and the animation are too much behind. Too bad....with good design, animation and a good r&d team this could've been a big hit.

frye
12-29-2005, 01:22 AM
Maybe what we are watching is rendered out animatics. Marketing could be pushing for material that's just not there yet.

This has happened with games I've worked on. We send out or monthly milestone CD to publishers with as much polish as we can cram into it at the last minute, and they use these WIP CDs for marketing screenshots and gameplay trailers.

eric3dee
12-29-2005, 05:50 AM
Somehow this thread won't die. For those that missed it- here is my review of the film, for what its worth:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=302154&highlight=hoodwinked

Glenfx
01-19-2006, 04:31 AM
OH MY GOD, never heard of this "film/thing" until today. I saw a tiny 1x1 inch add on a local newspaper today and 3D total happened to post the same info today also.

SO, curiosity led me to look for the trailer.... and.... where are the 20+million dollars worth in production in that film??? O_o
If somebody gives me 10million$ ill make a FAR better movie than that =_=, thats what happends when you spend 19kkUS$ in VOICE ACTORS alone rather than animation.

Lower than BAD animation, unexistent character design, amazingly bad lighting. =S

Man, somebody give 10kkUS$ i can do miracles with that O_O

PhilOsirus
01-19-2006, 03:44 PM
Oh well, with all the bitching I guess everyone can go back to work full-time+overtime on high end CG movies that don't turn a profit or that are never released to begin with, if that's your thing.

If you guys want to attack anyone with non-constructive critisism and insults, tell it to the big fish, not your fellow CG artists. Seriously, some people here take things so personally, and most of them are not even working in the industry (at least not on projects that get any attention).

I'll be sure to follow up on everyone else's work closely so I can say it's crap and ugly and should be burned in the smoking pits of hell if I feel like it.

switchblade327
01-19-2006, 07:13 PM
It's been said before and can't be said enough: If you work as a 3d professional and you can't handle criticism, even harsh, unconstructive criticism, then you're in the wrong business. If you put something out to the public, you're opening yourself up to criticism. Suck it up.

Now the actual artists who worked on this film and posted here have shown admirably that they CAN handle the criticism and will use it to fuel their drive to make their next project better. That's exactly the right way to handle it.

Not this "I'm going to find your work and insult too" schoolyard BS.

PhilOsirus
01-20-2006, 05:31 PM
It's been said before and can't be said enough: If you work as a 3d professional and you can't handle criticism, even harsh, unconstructive criticism, then you're in the wrong business. If you put something out to the public, you're opening yourself up to criticism. Suck it up.

Now the actual artists who worked on this film and posted here have shown admirably that they CAN handle the criticism and will use it to fuel their drive to make their next project better. That's exactly the right way to handle it.

Not this "I'm going to find your work and insult too" schoolyard BS.

Yeah except I was being sarcastic, I won't actually make sure to find X member's thread and say it sucks for no reasons. I was pointing out out ridiculous such an attitude is.

switchblade327
01-20-2006, 06:53 PM
Yeah except I was being sarcastic, I won't actually make sure to find X member's thread and say it sucks for no reasons. I was pointing out out ridiculous such an attitude is.

Ahhh, got it. Remember, the best way to obfuscate sarcasm is to send it through the internet.

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