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TopherMartini
11-08-2005, 05:42 PM
https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm_webinfopage.html

Time to whip out the credit card! :buttrock:

Br1
11-08-2005, 05:57 PM
Finally !!!
The day i've been expecting sooooooo much !

chrisWhite
11-08-2005, 07:34 PM
I can't wait to try it out, Renderman standalone seems awesome, but this should broaden it's accessibility quite a bit.

onlooker
11-08-2005, 07:40 PM
Somebody has to take the plunge. I'd like to see a multitude of renders, a review of the interface & difficulty, ability & stability, and comparison to Mental Ray before I before I blow a grand 2 weeks before the XBOX 360 comes out. ;)

leuey
11-08-2005, 07:49 PM
I'm very excited about this - but I wish they had more info on their website. Any of you beta testers out there free to talk about this now? What are your impressions? What are it's biggest strenghts and limitations?

-Greg

SheepFactory
11-08-2005, 08:04 PM
It seems they have a no risk 30 day moneyback guarantee. I might try this one out soon.

agreenster
11-08-2005, 08:10 PM
Yeah but you have to fork over the $995 first...

Julius
11-08-2005, 08:22 PM
Not much information on that page unfortunately :(

lazzhar
11-08-2005, 08:36 PM
Pretty old but it talks a bit about this last born:
https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm_webinfopage.html
https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm_faq.html

TopherMartini
11-08-2005, 11:18 PM
Yeah but you have to fork over the $995 first...
At the bottom of the product page it mentions a 30-day money back guarantee. If you take the plunge and regret it at least that's something to fall back on. I've never heard of anyone offering that kind of guarantee, but I like it :thumbsup:

itsallgoode9
11-09-2005, 12:34 AM
'bout damn time! wish they had a free 30 day trial though :sad:

Apoclypse
11-09-2005, 12:42 AM
Does it have a "make perfect" button, I think Pixar used it in the incredibles.

appppo
11-09-2005, 12:47 AM
You have to buy additional licenses per "CPU", if you wanna do network rendering.
Yikes :p

gavin_hughes
11-09-2005, 12:59 AM
per cpu?

what about those running duals, or dual, even quad core?

shehbahn
11-09-2005, 01:30 AM
per cpu?

what about those running duals, or dual, even quad core?

from the FAQ :

8. Does RenderMan for Maya make use of two processors on a dual processor machine?

RenderMan for Maya uses one processor while rendering any one frame. However:

(1) If you purchase a node-locked license of RenderMan for Maya on a dual processor machine you can use both processors to render two separate frames in parallel while consuming one license.

(2) If you purchase a floating license then RenderMan for Maya will consume two licenses on a dual processor machine though you have the greater flexibility of using any processor on your network. There is a trade-off between the advantages of floating license flexibility, and the ability to maximize both processors on a single node locked license.

appppo
11-09-2005, 01:32 AM
If you buy node lock license, you can use both CPUs or Cores.
However, if you buy floating license(which is preferable in case you got render farm), you can use only one of them.
They got FAQ page :)

https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm_faq.html

toonpang
11-09-2005, 01:38 AM
Any of you beta testers out there free to talk about this now? What are your impressions? What are it's biggest strenghts and limitations?

-Greg

I was a beta tester, I can't post any images or anything but I can tell you that it is fast and looks awesome. When working with blobby particles with self shadows, its an easy 10x faster than MR or Maya render and looks way better. The sub-surface scattering and ambient occlusion works great as well, no more flickery-photon MR animations for me!

The ont thing that is just awesome though, and all you animators will agree, is the motion blur. It doesn't have any of the lame glitchy fakes you find in other renders, its just true 3d motion blur that looks amazing even with DOF. If you were at siggraph you probably saw the DOF/MB demo and you know what I mean.

I do wish it was multithreaded (powermac quad w/ renderman.. droooool) but it really is so fast even with mentalray running 4 dual 3.0 xeon slaves off our farm, RM was still quicker and looked just as good.

As you can probably tell, I'm pretty damn sold on it and I'll be getting myself a copy when my beta licence runs out.

I do still want to see vray and brazil for maya though!!

-Kevin

beaker
11-09-2005, 01:59 AM
The threading part is just a current limitation of Prman, not of MFRM. The only way Prman "threads" is by giving half the image to one processor and half to another.

People will have to wait for Prman 13 before real multithreading is introduced.

ThomasMahler
11-09-2005, 07:06 AM
Finally! Hope this thing will rise and conquer! :)

thematt
11-09-2005, 07:36 AM
Yeah finally, they've told me in would be releised on the 7th, 2 days later it's on..that two days seems very long though. :D
really cool anyhow.
thks for th info toonpang.

xstijn
11-09-2005, 08:46 AM
Ok,

I have never worked with any pixar renderman product in the past, but i like the idea of a fully integrated render so i'm thinking to try this out (30 days, money back :wavey: ) but i have some questions:

-What's so special about this render, i mean al the pixar movies have that same kind of look. WHen you render with this integrated render does it have that same kind of touch, or is it just like another mental ray with new stuff.. and what is special compared to mental ray or maya software?
- Is it faster then other renders?
- Anyone knows if there are coming tutorials for this maya integrated renderer?

Thanks in forward :)

appppo
11-09-2005, 09:13 AM
Renderman is used for many movies, not only Pixar's movies.
Major studios like ILM, Digital Domain have tons of renderman license.
It may be difficult to find any major movies whose CGIs are generated other renderers
than Photo Realistic Renderman or Mental Ray.
(By the way, Renderman is a specification of interface. So, there are some rederman-compatible renderers like Air. Photo Realistic Renderman is pixar's rederman-compatible
renderer.)

yann22
11-09-2005, 10:08 AM
thx for the info toonpang :thumbsup: , I'm very excited about this :bounce: , and any beta-testers that might be lurking about here :wavey:, feel free to share your experiences too :applause:


guess I used up my monthly share of smilies with this one :)

amirjahanlou
11-09-2005, 11:48 AM
I don't get it, wasn't this released a couple of months ago? And there was an introduction at Gnomon ?( As follow )



http://www.digitalartform.com/archives/2005/04/renderman_for_m.html





Any way it is an exiting time.

victor
11-09-2005, 04:20 PM
I don't get it, wasn't this released a couple of months ago?It has been "introduced", "revealed", "unleashed", and possibly something else several times now, but not actually released until now.

morimitsu
11-10-2005, 04:16 AM
I´m looking forward for a review of this plugin!

And 30 days money back garantee... This is great!
I thought it was only available for those tvs shopping products... hehe.

TopherMartini
11-10-2005, 04:56 AM
There have been some reviews already:

Computer Graphics World (http://cgw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?ARTICLE_ID=240761&p=18&cat=WEBX)
Digital Producer (http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=32718)

And... 3D World ran a review in Issue 70 (page 82).

de_tomato
11-10-2005, 09:04 AM
"..One feature missing in Renderman for Maya is the ability to author your own RIB shaders. This must must still be accomplished with advanced tools such as Slim and MTOR, and requires an upgrade.."

This is not so good tho..

Anyway, I dont think many peoples will jump to the wagon as yet. Most will wait for others to be the white rat first.

harlan_hill
11-10-2005, 09:13 AM
Well, it works with Maya's Hypershade for the most part, but you can use renderman shaders with RMfM, you just can't 'create' them. However there are a variety of third party tools which allow the creation of RIB Shaders which will work with your objects in RMfM. Here's a fantastic free one which works quite like Slim:

http://www.dream.com.ua/thetool.html

thematt
11-10-2005, 12:11 PM
Anyway, I dont think many peoples will jump to the wagon as yet. Most will wait for others to be the white rat first.



I'm sure there will be plenty, included us really soon, mostly when you've try it and saw the motion blur, and displacement quality and speed, there is no turning back.
I can't wait to have it..already know company where they are upgrading all there pipleline to it.
You don't necessary need RIB, small company will profits from that renderer really fast.

cheers

ThomasMahler
11-10-2005, 12:12 PM
May the beta testers actually show testrenderings they did now or is that prohibited due to NDA?

I'd love to see some renderings, some technical tests and stuff like that - It'd be great to hear some hands-on comments on the plug-in, about stability, how well it plays together with particles, hair, fur, paint effects, how well it handles displacements, how you manage shaders, how well the render-pass thing in Maya7 works with rfm and stuff like that.

There's no demo or educational version out and there have been no extensive reports about rfm, so it's kinda hard to make the decision.

HamsaPaksham
11-10-2005, 01:46 PM
The Displacement , Motion Blur and Sub-d in Renderman are Excellent.

SheepFactory
11-10-2005, 05:05 PM
Does anyone know if this plugin lets you use the rendertime booleans prman has?

Jeff Lew
11-10-2005, 05:21 PM
I was playing around with renderman last night, specifially to compare the speed and quality of motion blur and DOF with mental ray and maya software render. First off, I am floored by it's speed. Renderman is FAST.

I'm running a dual core X2 running at 2.5ghz and a DOF test I did in Mental Ray at 640x480 took a little less than 5 mins to render at better than production level quality, using both procs. (sampling 1 to 3)

The same image was rendered in renderman on 1 processor at a little over 30 secs!! Quality was just as good, and maybe a tad better.

Motion blur tests proved the same. I know talk is cheap, so I'll post up some sample pics later tonight.

I played a little more with GI occlussion. I tend to like the mental ray AO shader better, but let me play with it some more. I'm sure I'm not doing some things right.

Jeff

shehbahn
11-10-2005, 05:25 PM
>One feature missing in Renderman for Maya is the ability to author your own RIB shaders

i haven't looked at the official release, but it was my understanding that the shader compiler would ship along with the plugin and that it was possible to import those compiled shades and apply them on geometry. maybe someone can confirm this...

thedaemon
11-10-2005, 05:39 PM
This is some pretty great news. Not only can some of us part timers use renderman, but we don't have to learn how to setup all new shaders. Score one for pixar. :thumbsup:

PhillipCrond
11-10-2005, 05:47 PM
I played a little more with GI occlussion. I tend to like the mental ray AO shader better, but let me play with it some more. I'm sure I'm not doing some things right.


Seems like Renderman for Maya in combination with Maya 7's new render passes will let you pick the best of all worlds. That makes a product like Rman seem even more valuable.

levork
11-10-2005, 05:54 PM
>One feature missing in Renderman for Maya is the ability to author your own RIB shaders

i haven't looked at the official release, but it was my understanding that the shader compiler would ship along with the plugin and that it was possible to import those compiled shades and apply them on geometry. maybe someone can confirm this...

Yes, that's correct.

TopherMartini
11-10-2005, 05:58 PM
i haven't looked at the official release, but it was my understanding that the shader compiler would ship along with the plugin and that it was possible to import those compiled shades and apply them on geometry. maybe someone can confirm this...
There's a section of the FAQ (https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/rfm_faq.html#Can%20RenderMan%20for%20Maya%20use%20RenderMan%20shaders%20written%20in%20the%20RenderMan%20Shading%20Language?) about this. You can write a shader in RSL and use the shader compiler to use it with RfM.

The RenderMan Academy (http://www.rendermanacademy.com/docs/RSL101.htm) has a good intro to RSL, in addition to the awesome documentation on the Pixar site.

beaker
11-10-2005, 06:14 PM
Does anyone know if this plugin lets you use the rendertime booleans prman has?Are you talking about CSG?

SheepFactory
11-10-2005, 06:44 PM
Are you talking about CSG?

yea thats the one.

shehbahn
11-10-2005, 07:16 PM
>Are you talking about CSG?

disclaimer again (Levork knows better) - i doubt that the RIB CSG feature is supported.

Titus
11-10-2005, 07:25 PM
Seems like Renderman for Maya in combination with Maya 7's new render passes will let you pick the best of all worlds. That makes a product like Rman seem even more valuable.

Almost all the studios I know do render passes with RenderMan, it is so easy!

Jeff Lew
11-10-2005, 08:18 PM
Here's a DOF test I did. Three balls refelcting an HDRI environment map. 1 directional light with raytraced shadows. light angle at 1 and 20 shadow rays.

http://www.jefflew.com/renderman/maya_soft_DOF_2.07.jpg
Maya Software render. shading 2-8. Time = 2:07. 2 processors.





http://www.jefflew.com/renderman/mentalray_DOF_7.21.jpg
Mental Ray render at sampling 1 to 3. Time = 7:21. 2 processors





http://www.jefflew.com/renderman/renderman_DOF_0.43.jpg
Renderman rendered. shading rate = 1. Pixel samples 9x9. Time = 43 sec using 1 proc. As you can see, renderman treats shadows differently than Mental Ray. Mental Ray matches more like Maya software rendered shadows.

But, man, the speed...:eek:

Jeff

FloydBishop
11-10-2005, 08:26 PM
Nice comparisons, Jeff. It would be nice to see some more of these.

I'm interested in how the renderer treats blobby particles among other things.

thematt
11-10-2005, 08:44 PM
yep that's impressive jeff tahnks for showing those test, I must agree even on those simple test we can see a huge difference in term of quality between, maya, mental ray and renderman.

Man those renderman shadows sure look much better.

cheers

shehbahn
11-10-2005, 08:52 PM
>I'm interested in how the renderer treats blobby particles among other things.

(apply disclaimer)

assuming a similar support as MtoR's, "blobbies" are converted into the RI implicit surface primitive. direct REYES render of these in the past has never given me any particular problem. ray intersection on the other hand could slow down a fair bit given a sufficiently complex blobby (think very large particle system). i also remember running into a couple of trace bias issues.

haven't done much of this in a while, so things may have improved since.

appppo
11-10-2005, 11:04 PM
Hey, can Fluid Ocean be rendered?
Fluid Effect?

If RMFM could do that, I guess Ocean rendering can be much faster,
and I can go home early because I got tons of ocean shot now for a movie :scream:

harlan_hill
11-10-2005, 11:15 PM
No, it doesn't support Maya Fluids yet. There may be a way to hack something up, but it's not a supported feature in 1.0.

SheepFactory
11-10-2005, 11:24 PM
No, it doesn't support Maya Fluids yet. There may be a way to hack something up, but it's not a supported feature in 1.0.

Since you seem to be using\used it, do you know if CSG is in it by any chance?

appppo
11-10-2005, 11:26 PM
Then, Renderman(Pro Server) supports Fluid?
Mental Ray for Maya can render Fluid.
It produce a little bit different result from Maya Software's one, though.

harlan_hill
11-10-2005, 11:35 PM
Since you seem to be using\used it, do you know if CSG is in it by any chance?

I'll give it a shot in a few, Sheep.

leuey
11-10-2005, 11:41 PM
Hi Jeff - nice tests. Would you mind posting what hardware you used? Also, is there a reason none of the spheres are reflecting the raytraced shadows?

I'm also curious why renderman's reflection is so blurry - and how much you have to up the sampling to make the shadows acceptable.

thanks for posting - there's a lot of interest in this and not a lot of info.

-Greg

SheepFactory
11-10-2005, 11:46 PM
I'll give it a shot in a few, Sheep.

Thanks man.

harlan_hill
11-10-2005, 11:54 PM
Then, Renderman(Pro Server) supports Fluid?
Mental Ray for Maya can render Fluid.
It produce a little bit different result from Maya Software's one, though.


It just doesn't support it "yet", I'm sure it will in the future. I don't believe that RenderMan ProServer supports them directly either, but I could be wrong (I'm not wanting to spread any wrong information).

Remember that Maya's fluids can very easily be converted to Polys. So I see no reason why you couldn't create fluids as you would normally in Maya, and then just convert the Fluids to Polys for use in RenderMan for Maya. Obviously not the same as native support for them, but it should work in the interim.

As far as the features of RMfM go, keep in mind that the 'renderer' is the same 'renderer' found in RenderMan ProServer; it's just seamlessly integrated into Maya. The main difference is the lack of RIB & DSO creation in RMfM. You can use RIB shaders built in Slim or wherever, you just can't build them with the tools provided by RMfM. The actual renderer is functionally identical. While the lack of RIB generation is obviously a limitation, you do gain the ability to use Maya's Hypershade natively - something you can't really do with RAT as it's designed enitrely around RIB Shaders.

People seem to think that RMfM is a "lite" version of RenderMan; it isn't. It's the same renderer just wrapped in a more user-friendly maya-centric package. If you're a small shop and don't have shader writers, etc... on staff, then RMfM is an ideal package for you.

Take a peak at the RMfM FAQ, and you'll see that it's really not that limited. :)

hope that helps.

harlan_hill
11-11-2005, 12:05 AM
Thanks man.

It appears to support Booleans, Sheep. I'll have to delve into it later and see how extensive the support is - It may only work with Maya's native boolean operations and might not allow you to use a RIB with a boolean, but I'd have to play around with it to check.

appppo
11-11-2005, 12:13 AM
>Remember that Maya's fluids can very easily be converted to Polys. So I see no reason why
>you couldn't create fluids as you would normally in Maya, and then just convert the Fluids to
>Polys for use in RenderMan for Maya. Obviously not the same as native support for them, but
>it should work in the interim.

Try to set tesselation of ocean plane to Advanced, then set U and V to 30.
Push up Num of Frequency to 20~30.

You got damn heavy scene :sad:
For me, rendering time creation of polygon is kinda must.

MaDSheeP
11-11-2005, 01:15 AM
You do have to tessellate polygons to create a smooth surface… is it possible to use Nurbs? I know Renderman supports true nurbs math instead of converting it to polys at render time… would that help the rendertime?

Kabab
11-11-2005, 01:22 AM
I think people are confusing fluids...

There are 2 parts to Maya fluids... The volumetric fluids solver and the ocean shader which is just a nice displacement/bump map shader..

I'd wager that the ocean shader would work to some extent seeing...

appppo
11-11-2005, 02:31 AM
Yeah, I just thought Fluid "Ocean" is just nurbs plane, and ocean shader(including
displacement), so it could be possible to render that with Renderman, and
rendering could be faster, coz Renderman use more advanced algorism of displacement.

hmm...:sad:

Blur1
11-11-2005, 03:01 AM
-Does it support output of straight colour when rendering RGBA?
-What is the relevance of Renderman arbitrary outputs if you have Maya 7?

jeremybirn
11-11-2005, 03:57 AM
-What is the relevance of Renderman arbitrary outputs if you have Maya 7?

Renderman Arbitrary Output Variables mean that multiple image files can be written out at once, during what's essentially one render task.

Instead of rendering one pass, then after that's done, rendering another, using up more render time for the extra passes, imagine if you just did your main "beauty" pass, and symultaneously 16 or 20 image files were written out by the task, isolating particular lights, reflection passes, occlusion, masks, shadow passes, or whatever you had specified.

Think of it as more like the way you can optionally have an alpha channel with your render, and can optionally have a z-depth file with your render in the Maya renderer. Just on steroids, to give you all your passes that way.

Of course, this doesn't apply to rendering in layers with different objects visible, that still has to be done in serial, just to passes that give you information that could be a part of your main beauty pass computation anyway.

-jeremy

Blur1
11-11-2005, 05:23 AM
Thanks...a comprehensive reply. Sounds like it would work well in tandem with all the Maya 7 render pass functionality then.

I have your book by the way.

Michael

JasonA
11-11-2005, 02:09 PM
Can anyone comment on the quality and ease-of-use of the documentation or tutorials that comes with rmfm? Is it good enough to really tell you how to use the renderer and its features to get the best results, or is more like a dictionary that simply defines what every tool is and leaves it up to the user to figure out how to implement it? Do you have to already be an experienced prman user to get good results out of this plugin?

mustique
11-11-2005, 03:43 PM
Can anyone comment on the quality and ease-of-use of the documentation or tutorials that comes with rmfm? Is it good enough to really tell you how to use the renderer and its features to get the best results, or is more like a dictionary that simply defines what every tool is and leaves it up to the user to figure out how to implement it? Do you have to already be an experienced prman user to get good results out of this plugin?

With other words is the documentation as good as mental ray's?

Titus
11-11-2005, 04:33 PM
With other words is the documentation as good as mental ray's?

I don't know how good the mr documentation is but PRMan's documentation isn't as good as it should be. It covers advanced features but lacks many simple and almost obvious tasks.

lotusexige
11-11-2005, 04:57 PM
I was also a beta tester on this product, and the documentation is indeed a little sparten at the moment.

There is pretty comprehensive PRman documentation in there (so you can write your own shaders, compile them with the included shader compiler, and use them in your scenes.) But the tutorials and explanations are a little lacking - as has been mentioned.

I haven't read all of this thread, just a couple of pages, but from my perspective this product is a very very good start. it can only build to become a true killer render alternative.

AO and GI rendering is fast, and with baking features animation can be amazingly quick.
AOVs and in-camera effects are also very good. but then i have yet to meet another renderer than prman that can do stuff like DOF/Mo Blur (including subframe) quicker and more effificiently.

all in, i am very impressed and hope the docs will be improved, i fully expect many tutorials to be exploding all over the net on this one.

jordibares
11-12-2005, 04:44 PM
Jeff, your good will is great but you should be careful on those "demostrations".

In order to do a test we all should try our best not to generate and statement that already is biased.

1-The images should be accompanied with more information, the number of processors in reality says little things while i rather know if you have used raytracing or not, the sampling and if you have used the rasterizer in mental ray or not. If you are using shadowmaps etc..

2-You/Us don't know if the shader internals. You are using probably the standard Mental Ray shader provided by the manufacturer that suffers from a different approach and i say this because the DOF provided on other package for example is a poor implementation of DOF that forces the DOF and the scene to be sampled together (problably the reason you need sampling 1,3).
We have written our own implementation of DOF for Mental ray and i can tell you the render times are quite close to PRMan when done in similar conditions.

In a way you are comparing much more than just the render engine performance, but the particular implementation Alias has done of it.

3-Nobody should accept as a fact a "demostration" like this, something that in itself is clearly wrong, why the shadows are so different? The images should look as close as possible.

So please, be serious becuase a lot of people that can't do the test themselves nor know the bits and pieces around the test are going to have a headache once they buy product X and is not that great/fast/whatever.

NOTE:
PRMan, Mental Ray, whatever you decide to use are great products, one have strong points on one area and the other has the strong points on another area so please do your own research with production scenes and see of all the factors do it for you.

mustique
11-12-2005, 05:28 PM
While I agree that more info on the testscenes should have been provided, it's no secret that Renderman's motionblur and DOF performance is superior to mentalray. Its lso known that mray's FG and GI is faster than that of Renderman.

The audience that has been targeted with RMFM are not studios that can write their own DOF code for mray.

So I found the testrendering example quite informative.
Would actually like to see more of them.

JasonA
11-12-2005, 05:52 PM
When I first heard about rmfm, I was pretty excited.. But now I'm wary. I'll be interested to see what other people can do with it.. And what kind of tutorials spring up on the internet. For me though, the lack of multiprocessor support (on ONE license), the lack of network rendering (on ONE license), combined with shit documentation is enough to turn me off.

Also, I don't know what the node locking mechanism is (ie can it be node locked to a hardware dongle?), but I have a stinking feeling that it’s to the network card, or some other immovable item. Great for the company to charge for license transferal fees though :hmm:

I guess I don't see this product as having been effectively marketed to the single user / small studio. While its cool to have it as a direct render plug-in to Maya, all of the policies surrounding the product are reminiscent of what I would expect a larger studio to have to deal with.. I guess what it boils down to is you really have to want the fast motion blur and sub pixel displacement REALLY BAD... because outside of these two items, I'm not seeing why I should buy this product over any other external commercial renderer coming out. But I can definitely see frustrations on the horizon with it.

Maybe its just me being a fussy consumer, but I expect more for $995. I'll wait and see what Brazil, Maxwell or finalRender offer when they come out with Maya supporting products.

ok rant over :p

beaker
11-12-2005, 07:37 PM
For me though, the lack of multiprocessor support (on ONE license), the lack of network rendering (on ONE license)PRman doesn't support multithreading in the first place, but you can launch a render on each processor with 1 license (this is actually much faster then multithreading). Also you can network render with it through maya, just like you can net render without the MR standalone. Render managers just need to add support for it, but you can do it manually through most render managers just with flags (render -r rm, or whatever the render code is for RMFM).

rendermaniac
11-12-2005, 09:26 PM
>Remember that Maya's fluids can very easily be converted to Polys. So I see no reason why
>you couldn't create fluids as you would normally in Maya, and then just convert the Fluids to
>Polys for use in RenderMan for Maya. Obviously not the same as native support for them, but
>it should work in the interim.

Try to set tesselation of ocean plane to Advanced, then set U and V to 30.
Push up Num of Frequency to 20~30.

You got damn heavy scene :sad:
For me, rendering time creation of polygon is kinda must.

You'd probably do better to render out an orthogonal z depth pass from above and then just use this for displacement - prman is not good at dealing with millions of polygons. This doesn't make it a bad renderer - it just expect you to work more cleverly - using NURBs and subdivision surfaces. And the best part is that you never have to set the tesselation yourself like in Maya.

I am sure it will support Fluids at some point - it's just a matter of time.

It would be nice if there was a RIB archive Maya node - which you really need for very large scenes. However there are a lot of feature I would like to see in MTOR.

I have only seen the announcement demonstration - supporting fur and paint effects straight from the box is very nice. I felt a bit cheated that they used pretty high shading rates to make it seem even faster. Real production rendering tends to use a shading rate of 0.25-0.5. However it still is one of the fastest renderer out there. Mental Ray only beats prman with raytracing.

Also won't Maya booleans just give you NURBs geometry anyway? Prmans real CSG are pretty nice, but note that they cannot be raytraced.

RMfM seems like a good direction.

Simon

MorituriMax
11-13-2005, 08:15 AM
Does it have a "make perfect" button, I think Pixar used it in the incredibles.

I think it comes with an "Easy Button."
8 )

Bonedaddy
11-13-2005, 08:53 AM
So it for sure does not have geometry readarchive functionality? Bummer. I really wish it or MRfM would open up that functionality (in MR's case, geometry brushes). It is insanely useful -- I find it really hard to work without it, in many scenes.

agreenster
11-13-2005, 10:19 PM
Thanks for those images Jeff.....

The speed....the accuracy....the shadows! MAN

beaker
11-13-2005, 10:36 PM
So it for sure does not have geometry readarchive functionality? Bummer. I really wish it or MRfM would open up that functionality (in MR's case, geometry brushes). It is insanely useful -- I find it really hard to work without it, in many scenes.Why not just use maya's built in proxy reference? It essentially is a read archive.

Also RMfM has zero rib access, so if you want any rib access, get Proserver. MRfM does have this funtionality with geometry shaders.

jeremybirn
11-18-2005, 05:23 PM
Some of you may be interested in a review that's on highend3d; it seems to have some interesting screenshots and fodder for discussion.

http://www.highend3d.com/articles/reviews/9-1.html

-jeremy

Ckerr812
11-18-2005, 05:42 PM
A really great product by pixar at a really great price.

I am glad pixar is aiming at the smaller studios and independent guys with this, they sure didn't have to do it (Pixar isn't hurting for money), and I am sure they aren't going to make much money on it (chump change for pixar), but it sure will help out the community.

So Pixar gets my respect, the fast motion blur alone is worth the price (looks for the uninstall mental ray button!) :)

shehbahn
11-18-2005, 08:09 PM
>Prmans real CSG are pretty nice, but note that they cannot be raytraced.

unless memory is failing me - i remember trying this 6 months ago to intersect rays with the boolean intersection of 2 spheres and this to be working but being very very slow.

SheepFactory
11-18-2005, 11:14 PM
Ok i couldnt wait and purchased it :)

it is simply friggin fantastic. what takes 20 minutes to render in mr takes 5 seconds (literally) in prman and it looks way better.

Now i am no render td , I wanted quick motionblur and displacements and this plugin delivered all i asked for and then some. I'll try to post some comparison tests soon if mr can finish rendering this :)

Bonedaddy
11-18-2005, 11:23 PM
Why not just use maya's built in proxy reference? It essentially is a read archive.
Are you talking about the reference editor? I've had problems with that, and I can't do things like, say, dynamically change up the proxy, or have a large number of them, or really do much with scripting it. If you're talking about something else, I'd love to hear about it.


Also RMfM has zero rib access, so if you want any rib access, get Proserver. MRfM does have this funtionality with geometry shaders.
I have not been able to delve into MRfM much, but my investigation indicated that you cannot use custom geometry brushes without MR standalone.

chrisWhite
11-19-2005, 12:27 AM
Just started playing with it and dang it's fast! I'm pretty stunned by how much faster and more intuitive it is than Mental Ray. Great, like I didn't need more excuses to spend time in the labs...:bounce:

Jeff Lew
11-19-2005, 01:29 AM
I have to admit, after a full week of trying it and evaluating it, I decided to return it. But, I had a couple sleepless nights and was really, really torn on whether to use it or not.

Here's my conclusions:

Pro's:
- Motion blur speed & quality
- DOF speed & quality
- Excellent antialias sampling

Con's:
- GI oclussion tends to flicker in animation, unless you pump it up to 1024 or max it out at 2048, thus making it slower than the Mental Ray AO shader. The MR AO shader does not flicker at any quality level.
- Raytracing takes a speed hit. (but they do say they are addressing this issue for the next update)
- My biggest con is a rendering bug I discovered when you use area lights on a soft specular blinn shader. You get light fringing on the opposite side of the object from where the light is being cast. This little bug is what made me decide to return Renderman. It's probably not a major issue for most of you out there, but for my current production, this type of lighting is very important in the style of rendering I'm going for.


Another big decision was, what was the benefit for me to use renderman over my currently existing pipeline? My existing pipeline is this: render color, motion vectors for motion blur, z-depth for DOF in Maya software. Render AO occlusion and reflection passes in Mental Ray. Then I would comp all those layers together to get the final look I want.

With renderman, I can get the final look in just 1 render, making the production process a lot easier (no comping) and smaller (less frames to render)

So the decision came down to: do I want ease of use, but costs more, because I would surely need more than 1 license or RM. Or use my old pipeline, which is a lot cheaper because of unlimited Maya rendering licenses, but more work?

It was a case of using all Renderman or nothing, because there is no benefit of combining a mental ray AO pass with a renderman color pass with DOF and motion blur. The 2 layers won't line up.

Well, I decided to stick it out with my current pipeline, because I have 5 computers to render on, and I can do DOF in post to get the exact look I want. Let me just say it was a really tough decision, and there is no doubt that many of you will benefit from Renderman. Renderman is an excellent renderer. I just can't justify it for my particular case and pipeline.


Jeff

thematt
11-19-2005, 07:19 PM
wow Jeff thanks for the honesty and giving your thought on it..what i find weird is that you say that te Amb occ is not as good as mental ray in term of speed when other are saying it's damn fast and not at all flikery.?? But it's good to have pro and Con before buying.

Anyway thanks for sharing your insight..

cheers

SheepFactory
11-19-2005, 09:45 PM
Yea read your thread at the support forum Jeff.

I have to mention , the pixar support is exceptional on that forum , it almost makes you wonder what the incident support is for. I am sure they'll fix all those small bugs for the next release.

As far as GI occlusion flicker , i have not encountered any in my scenes and the rendertimes are very acceptable so far.

bobtronic
11-19-2005, 10:48 PM
Hi Jeff,

May I ask what you use for the MotionBlur? I understand that you create it in post with motionvectors. Just curious what software you use.

cheers,
Bob

Jeff Lew
11-19-2005, 11:53 PM
Yea read your thread at the support forum Jeff.

I have to mention , the pixar support is exceptional on that forum , it almost makes you wonder what the incident support is for. I am sure they'll fix all those small bugs for the next release.

As far as GI occlusion flicker , i have not encountered any in my scenes and the rendertimes are very acceptable so far.


Hey Ali,

Yeah, their support forum is quite good and responsive. What sampling do you use for the GI Occlusion? When I was using 512 I was getting pretty noticeable sizzling flicker on sequential frames. But it could have been due to the scale of my scene (quite small) and I was also rendering an interior room with lots of objects. One thing that may have contributed to the flicker is that I pushed the occlusion color to darker than pure black. So I set the value to something like -.5 for black just to get some nice deep contrasty occlussion. Maybe that pushes the occlusion too far? 1024 samples was acceptable, but i still noticed some subtle flicker. 2048 was pretty smooth.


May I ask what you use for the MotionBlur? I understand that you create it in post with motionvectors. Just curious what software you use.

cheers,
Bob



I do it the old fashioned way and use blur2d.exe that comes with Maya. It's a 2d blur, but it gets the job done. I run the blur on the very last step, after occlussion, DOF and reflection passes.

If you have Maya, just type: blur2d.exe -h in the DOS prompt to see how to use it.

Jeff

bobtronic
11-20-2005, 01:23 AM
I do it the old fashioned way and use blur2d.exe that comes with Maya. It's a 2d blur, but it gets the job done. I run the blur on the very last step, after occlussion, DOF and reflection passes.

If you have Maya, just type: blur2d.exe -h in the DOS prompt to see how to use it.

Jeff

thanks Jeff.

tweeeker
11-20-2005, 10:41 AM
- GI oclussion tends to flicker in animation, unless you pump it up to 1024 or max it out at 2048, thus making it slower than the Mental Ray AO shader. The MR AO shader does not flicker at any quality level.

Jeff

I've never used RMfM (only prman) but I believe the paramaters for controlling time/speed are the same. If you would like similar behaviour to the MR AO shader you will need to set RMfMs 'max variation' paramater to zero. The MR AO shader doesn't try to interpolate accross samples whereas Pixars occlusion does. Setting max variation to zero will ensure that no interpolation takes place and will likely remove any flickering. You don't mention what you had max variation set to, but it's important that it's quite low for final renders - something in the region of 0.02 to 0.05. If you do set max variation to zero, like MR, you can get away with lower samples such as 128 or 256.

T

amygdalae
11-21-2005, 05:11 AM
Are you talking about the reference editor? I've had problems with that, and I can't do things like, say, dynamically change up the proxy, or have a large number of them, or really do much with scripting it. If you're talking about something else, I'd love to hear about it.



I have not been able to delve into MRfM much, but my investigation indicated that you cannot use custom geometry brushes without MR standalone.


Umm. You can certainly script referencing. Take a look at the mel help for 'file'.

DD especially, Weta, Disney and other facilities rely on scripted maya file referencing.

Bonedaddy
11-21-2005, 05:27 AM
Umm. You can certainly script referencing. Take a look at the mel help for 'file'.

DD especially, Weta, Disney and other facilities rely on scripted maya file referencing.

Well, I'm a right git then, aren't I? Off to RTFM again.

amygdalae
11-21-2005, 05:48 AM
Man that $1000 bucks is burning a hole in my pocket (err, credit card). Sure would be nice to have an easy PRMan at home with the shader compiler. Probably wont need to do DSOs at home but that would be nice..

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