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View Full Version : FR2 for C4D - what is happening?


marshalartist
11-02-2005, 05:58 PM
I thought Final Render Stage 2 for C4D was scheduled for the end of september, does anybody know what is happening and when it is likely to ship?

DynamicRealism
11-02-2005, 06:00 PM
sacraficing time for perfection at the moment, mr. edwin will post updates soon =)


*beta tester*

lllab
11-02-2005, 06:27 PM
well i hope he dont gets über-perfect, even c4d which is rock solid has small bucks in .0 releases-

small updates after the release dont hurt anybody i guess, as long as it is not like maxwell fiasko....

i could have needed it so urgently this week to render better GI, hope we will see it soon:-)))

cheers
stefan

marshalartist
11-02-2005, 06:42 PM
thank you Mr. Betatester :p
can you tell me if the interface for the material node system is the same as expresso or has it received any cosmetic and ergonomic improvements, thanks,

Peter

vesalus
11-02-2005, 07:31 PM
well i hope he dont gets über-perfect, even c4d which is rock solid has small bucks in .0 releases-

small updates after the release dont hurt anybody i guess, as long as it is not like maxwell fiasko....

i could have needed it so urgently this week to render better GI, hope we will see it soon:-)))

cheers
stefan


maxwell communication is quite a fiasco, but so far the soft isnt released yet, so lets give them some credit, then when 1.0 will be officialy out, that'll be another story, and i hope not, time to yell...

v.montel
11-02-2005, 07:51 PM
Totally agree with you Vesalus. And according to the latest news communicated today by NextLimit's crew, the beast is gonna be damn powerfull...

lllab
11-02-2005, 08:05 PM
the final MW might be well and powerfull lets see, but i paid for a beta with constant(!) updates and a module for c4d (coming out in 1 month-that was nov2004).

now we didnt get any updates for a long time, and we never recieved a working plugin for c4d, it is soo buggy that it isnt worth doing anything real with it.

FR2 is not really a new product, its a very solid renderengine for years, so i have not so much fear with FR. and i am sure the integration is done very well. i just meant i am happy with a 99% solid plug. there is room for bugfixes in the next months.

i am just at the point that i really would love to see my FR2, also needed it urgently for recent jobs...

edwin, lets start the FR2 fever for cinema:-)

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
11-02-2005, 09:01 PM
i could have needed it so urgently this week to render better GI, hope we will see it soon:-)))

me too. I had a panicky client remindng me there was a $1/2 Billion project riding on my renderings, and I was behind as I watched AR paint its white line oh-so-slow. Stressed? No, why should I be. Heck, they should take another year to perfect the FR2 product. I wouldn't want to hand any work (ontime work) with any imperfections.

xeno3d
11-02-2005, 09:26 PM
I wanna know whats hapening too.. the silence is brutal...

rgwarren
11-02-2005, 09:32 PM
I had a panicky client remindng me there was a $1/2 Billion project riding on my renderings...

I need more of those type of clients. $$$

LucentDreams
11-02-2005, 10:07 PM
just thought I'd chime in and point out to those few who kept asking for maxon to make some mention ages aback about whether rendering stuff was being done or not, that this and Maxwell are prime examples of why maxon doesn't pre announce things like this typically, sure gets you frustrated

Ernest Burden
11-02-2005, 10:23 PM
I need more of those type of clients. $$$

Don't get the impression that my piece of the supposed half-billion dollars is a big percentage. While it's probably true, they tell me these things to get me to care about their deadline--see, other people have all this money in play, so you (who are not in line for much of it) should care more. I'm just getting a regular rendering fee (though I charge a lot). The problem with the slow AR rendering is it has kept me from being able to do a few extra pictures the client wanted, so it is actually losing me money. I could be buying more CPUs to use NetRender, but it's not the same as having a quicker, quality result.

this and Maxwell are prime examples of why maxon doesn't pre announce things like this typically

Point well taken, though not happily.

LucentDreams
11-02-2005, 10:42 PM
hope I don't get a huge retailiation for making this comment but what you said really surprised me Ernest, and i have hear it before, but I especially thought with a Render artist of your Calibre, that such a comment was unbelievable.

The problem with the slow AR rendering is it has kept me from being able to do a few extra pictures the client wanted, so it is actually losing me money.


Man, now I've faced the gun on a lot of renders for aniamtions and such myself too, even had to compromise quality a little to get a render done in time, but those have always been because of mistakes I've made like forgetting to change a light or show an object etc, or because of changes the director/client has made led to re rendering over and over until the was simply no time to keep the quality originally established.

Its our duty to know how to give the client what they want in the time they set out, and I'd never blame the renderer for not getting us there.

I was faking bouncing light and Ambient occlusion way before I had AO and GI, and Transluceny before SSS, ink effects before sketch and toon. I can;t thinkof a time I've ever siad I couldn't provide a client with something "because of my rendering software" When something can't be delivered, its the our faults as the commercial artists not the tools we use. I'm currently fixing up and finishing a project a few other C4D users workedon before me, and the last individual who worked on it, was comprimising the quality of a lot of things, particularly AA to get the job done, but the reduciton in AA caused a lot of problems with flickering, and I was able to reset those settings, tidy thigns up in other ways and actually manage to get some to render just as fast so they still make the deadline. Never heard a painter say they couldn't paint an image because the brush they had was too course.

lllab
11-02-2005, 11:31 PM
lets go back to topic;-)

-where is FR annoucement:-)))
dynamic realism betatester said it will be soon something siad from Mr Edwin.

i find this "whenisitfinallyreleaysedgame" amusing...
makes wirk not so boring

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
11-03-2005, 12:00 AM
lets go back to topic;-)

Let's get back to what Kai said


a Render artist of your Calibre, that such a comment was unbelievable.

I'm trying to take your comments in good humor.

I do not mean to blame my software for being unable to pump out additional renderings...except for the fact that rendering out a new view at even the 3000 lines I do will simply take more hours that it used to with Lightscape (where the GI was pre-calc'ed for the entire model). Also, I am not such an 'old hand' at C4D as you. But I was doing all that stuff 'back in the day' before GI even existed.


Problem--C4D does not do bucket rendering, and a tiled camera with GI can show seams, for the same reason that animation across multi CPUs will show flickering--different core random seeds. So the only real solution is to render on a single CPU per image, at the full render time.

Problem--even with tweeking, to render an interior with many lights and lots of glass takes many hours. Many hours. Realizing this, and going back and putting in fakes, takes time, too. How many hours, exactly? It would be good to know when the client asks you to promise you will get something done on time. I know about my part, but am still not good at figuring out how long C4D will take.

Problem--renderings done using NetRender do not have any method for determining where you are in the process. None. So you send a picture off to another machine to render and then the next morning it isn't completed. What to do? Is it going to be another 10 minutes or 10 hours? At least in the GUI you can see how much is done. But I'm only allowed to know on one image per licence--the rest (and I have the unlimited NR licence) is guesswork. Hard to base delivery dates when you will be rendering completely blind.

Problem--AR does not have a flicker-free, sample-accumulation problem free method for rendering animation, except 'stochastic'.


So yes, it is the artist and not the tool, but not all tools are perfect. I am waiting for FR2 to hopefully address some of the C4D shortcomings--aren't you, Kai? I had the experience of sitting here watching the white lines trace down my screen long past when I thought they would be done (despite my efforts at time-tweeks) while my promised delivery time came and went. My fault? Of course it is.

Never heard a painter say they couldn't paint an image because the brush they had was too course.

Ever been a painter?

Ever seen the lines at Pearl Paint as all the painters cue up to buy the better brush that will finally make their work what it could be? Sure its the artist and not the tool, but I can paint a lot better with a $60 sable than one of those black plastic 'brushes' that come in kid's little watercolor sets.

Whipyo
11-03-2005, 03:22 AM
I recieved an email from Cebas on Oct 29 which stated:


Hello and welcome to the finalRender Stage-2 newsletter for CINEMA 4D. We are currently on the very cusp of shipping. Unfortunately we have run into some unforeseen snags with the Cinema 4D 9.5 code base. We need to be sure that our render is working its best with both 9.1 and 9.5. This is not a major delay and we are looking at a matter of days not weeks. We hope you will all understand that these delays are due to our commitment to deliver you the best product possible.

LucentDreams
11-03-2005, 03:38 AM
I recieved an email from Cebas on Oct 29 which stated:

Hello and welcome to the finalRender Stage-2 newsletter for CINEMA 4D. We are currently on the very cusp of shipping. Unfortunately we have run into some unforeseen snags with the Cinema 4D 9.5 code base. We need to be sure that our render is working its best with both 9.1 and 9.5. This is not a major delay and we are looking at a matter of days not weeks. We hope you will all understand that these delays are due to our commitment to deliver you the best product possible.

how many dates or soons have they promised?

Yes I was awaiting final render, I was impressed with a lot of areas shown at siggraph, but I've also had the chance to see its shortcomings since then, which of course are not mentioned, things you'd expect to see in FR considering what it has for max but won't be in the cinema one. The GI is fast, the workflow in some areas of the shader tree very quirky, your setting yourselves up for disappointment in a lot of areas. I admit AR has shortcomings, and the FR will cover a lot of those, but I must say I'm surprised how users get so hyped up and act as though something will fix all their problems when they should all know full right that with its solutions will come several other problems.

Their false promises are what send up flares for me and I'm surprised no one else is worried.

Love the Pyrocluster ad on their site "tired of waiting... to finish your rendering?" howabout "tired of waiting... forthe product your ordered to finally be released well after its third promised release time?"

Per-Anders
11-03-2005, 03:44 AM
not to get into a paint fight or anything, but the painter comment kai was on the ball. it was whether a painter could finish a peice with the tools to hand. and in general a good painter is only inquisitive about the latest tools rather than demanding of them, no-one (apart from amatures) says they can't do a painting because they don't have the new w&n hog grade 3 mrk 2!

however both sides are right in this age old debate. the artist side says learn the tools till you have mastered them, then it doesn't matter what tools you have you are always the artist, the one in control. the practitioner/computer operator side says well that's all very well but i've got three clients and 5 days to complete each of there jobs, where's the time to learn in that?! just give me a solution that works! neither side is wrong, and cg is a lot more complex than paintbrushes, pigments, base and media.

you can always do with an advantage. provided it actually is an advantage in your case, and you can get the most out of it.

Whipyo
11-03-2005, 03:50 AM
Kai, no dates were mentioned in the Cebas newsletter....

DynamicRealism
11-03-2005, 03:58 AM
keep in mind im on a tight leash however, for those questioning how the integration is. I'll just promise you that the integration in its ENTIRETY is 110% fully embedded. It's as if it is built into cinema from stock. I cannot release any info about releases or current standings unfortunately. Question about expresso and shader tree. This is what I would consider a revamped expresso setup if thats what you would like to call it =) . Won't say anything more sorry guys =( . Patience is golden, emphasis on golden.
-james

JDP
11-03-2005, 01:34 PM
things you'd expect to see in FR considering what it has for max but won't be in the cinema one.

Such as what?

marshalartist
11-03-2005, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the insight James, I will wait patiently :thumbsup:

Continuumx
11-03-2005, 02:06 PM
not to get into a paint fight or anything, but the painter comment kai was on the ball. it was whether a painter could finish a peice with the tools to hand. and in general a good painter is only inquisitive about the latest tools rather than demanding of them, no-one (apart from amatures) says they can't do a painting because they don't have the new w&n hog grade 3 mrk 2!

however both sides are right in this age old debate. the artist side says learn the tools till you have mastered them, then it doesn't matter what tools you have you are always the artist, the one in control. the practitioner/computer operator side says well that's all very well but i've got three clients and 5 days to complete each of there jobs, where's the time to learn in that?! just give me a solution that works! neither side is wrong, and cg is a lot more complex than paintbrushes, pigments, base and media.

you can always do with an advantage. provided it actually is an advantage in your case, and you can get the most out of it.

I agree for the most part and comment that it takes years to become competent in any 3D software and then more time to fully master those features that you need.

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