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DMack
11-02-2005, 07:33 AM
Hi PMG guys,

It's been a little quiet from you all recently. Just wondering if you have any news for us...what you're working on etc. You mentioned some potential third party interest - any news on that front? Not after mega specifics, just a broad brush post - to keep us up to date.

Thanks

Parsec3d
11-02-2005, 08:07 AM
I don't know but Taron not posting sketches, and no new post on his blog for a month
must mean something ... well hopefully around the corner ....


I just wonder how large are blocks down PGM land...

Parsec3d
11-02-2005, 09:37 AM
well in the other hand it could also mean they have ran out off caffeine, Taron is no longer waking up at mid night, or he has joined that strange cult I have heard a lot off but never
had a chance of having a close encounter with I think is called "vacations"..or something like
that...

naaaa.. ;)

Layer01
11-02-2005, 12:43 PM
yeah a little tid bit of news would be awesome, just a little nugget to keep us hulking masses at bay :thumbsup:

even if its "sorry cant give any news, but working on some awesome stuff" etc..

fwtep
11-02-2005, 07:11 PM
Um, didn't Taron mention a whole lot of stuff just a couple of weeks ago?

Fred

phexitol
11-02-2005, 08:25 PM
Seely Fred, don't he know we too lazy to search?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=286583&page=2&pp=15

Parsec3d
11-02-2005, 08:55 PM
aaaaa!! that is why so much silence .... he must have been chaiend at the dugeon
for revealing too much ...

naaaa ;)

DMack
11-03-2005, 08:03 AM
Whoa! I missed that part of the thread.....

A lot of activity on the render front. I hope Animate's getting a similar amount of activity?

Labuzz
11-03-2005, 01:08 PM
"...a similar amount of activity?"
Yep,
What about :
Pose Space Deformation

Suricate
11-03-2005, 01:51 PM
"...a similar amount of activity?"
Yep,
What about :
Pose Space Deformation

Oh yeah, that would be nice. If Animation:Master has it, then also messiah should have it. :)
I read the paper of J.P.Lewis et al. and was wondering how something like that could be implemented into messiah. Since messiah doesn't have yet point level animation, maybe one could use instead the points of a 'Flex' deformer curve that are driven by a multi-dimensional controller. I think this is perfectly doable as a plug-in, unfortunately I myself haven't yet found the time to program it ... :sad:

Labuzz
11-03-2005, 06:10 PM
I think PMG should look at it very seriously because NO workaround will do the trick. It's about time for point level access along with a very good paint weight solution and a few "modeling" tools ( artisan comes to mind ).

stooch
11-03-2005, 06:27 PM
yeah, i am also all about the animate side of things. although id love to see how messiah plays with realflow, so im pretty excited about the particle shading additions. Only question is when will i get the pleasure to play with new features. how about a nice xmass present PMG? you should accept donations too, i would gladly contribute.

shadowfork
11-03-2005, 07:10 PM
zzZZzzz... z.zzzz...zzZZZzzzz.zzzz...zzZZZZzzzz.zzzzz....

--- wake me up when you hear from pmG ---

zzZZzzz... z.zzzz...zzZZZzzzz.zzzz...zzZZZZzzzz.zzzzz....

isobarxx
11-03-2005, 07:43 PM
Seely Fred, don't he know we too lazy to search?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=286583&page=2&pp=15

lol wow I'd missed that too. The particle additions sound really awesome! I'm thinking with vortexes I could get cool Flam3 style motion... then use the trails effect in DF... woot!

Now if I could use a sticky particle as a meta effector... smears, bullet holes, dust, *displacement*... all sorts of really neat fx would be possible. I was thinking I'd have to do it in another app, but if we can get some geometry-colliding particles for dripping things (with texture goo trails??) it'd help me a lot on an upcoming project.

Chewey
11-05-2005, 12:35 PM
pmG moves at a slow but steady pace so you need to be patient. I can't imagine that the sales of messiah et all are significant enought to provide the sole financial support for their small team of developers. And if indeed the that is the case I'm happy to see that updates keep coming.

PaulNewman
11-05-2005, 05:46 PM
I can't imagine that the sales of messiah et all are significant enought to provide the sole financial support for their small team of developers.
Also consider that some new messiah users did not buy from pmG direct . . .

stooch
11-06-2005, 03:24 PM
setup a donation page and ill contribute. I have paypal, its easy and convenient to do it. I believe in messiah that much.

draz
11-06-2005, 05:56 PM
I'm one of the new users that didn't buy directly from pmg. I'd be willing to contribute to a donation page as suggested by stooch.

Parsec3d
11-06-2005, 06:00 PM
send Taron images Fred movie Images and PGM crew to caffe press and sell them
ussing their store...

Chewey
11-06-2005, 07:07 PM
My point was to suggest that the pmG folks likely have other activities that pay the bills and that messiah development isn't their primary focus.

PaulNewman
11-06-2005, 08:42 PM
My point was to suggest that the pmG folks likely have other activities that pay the bills and that messiah development isn't their primary focus.
Judging from numerous hints here and on the pmG site, this has also been my perception. On the one hand such work would drive the development of messiah, while on the other it may slow it down due to divided interests. Another pro is that messiah gets production proven early on, although there still remains a nagging lot of little issues which struggle to go away. If I was in production using my own software tool, I would focus on coding just enough to get the shots done instead of fiddling with improving GUI and other little things at that point in time. Probably just make some notes on a to-do list for later.

If pmG's strategy is developing messiah during productions, then that little fact would have been high on my need-to-know list as a messiah user. That would drastically change the level of my expectations and let me get less tense while waiting for updates and fixes.

Under such circumstance, it may be valuable for pmG to involve the services of dedicated volunteer coders to take care of small stuff everyone keeps moaning about ad nauseam. How long would it take a part time coder working 3 hours a week to change the little yellow frame marker to a customizeable frame marker? pmG could then just approve the code and slap it in. Same goes for so many other little things. pmG can then stick to the heavy stuff. I'm sure most guys here would think it cool if one little thing was addressed each week, even if just mentioned "new frame marker - size, shape and colour can now be customized and you can toggle floating frame number on / off" and to be released in the next update.

If so many coders have jumped in on Blender 3D to put it on the map, then surely there should be a few willing to support messiah as volunteers?

SpikeWorx
11-07-2005, 01:20 AM
Other activities? I donīt think so, at least for the core developers, itīs a full time job Iīm sure.
Is there really someone who thinks you can come up with a software as complex as Messiah on the fly? Come on :drool:
Others have more developers, much more, and offer less.
NT comes in mind. Bigger team and they doesnīt fail to constantly unimpress me with each release.
New horrible bugs, non-working old features and so forth.


@Paul
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=270540

shadowfork
11-07-2005, 08:43 AM
I'm sure most guys here would think it cool if one little thing was addressed each week, even if just mentioned "new frame marker - size, shape and colour can now be customized and you can toggle floating frame number on / off" and to be released in the next update.

Hey! That's not a bad idea!
The Blender proposition too!:thumbsup:

I'm sure everyone would like to help in anyway they can. Coz we luv this app:love:


I believe in this software. But sometimes its just so hard to anticipate what's to come from it next. Even a ball park figure wouldn't hurt (say the next update may come out in the next 2 to 265 months :shrug: )


My point was to suggest that the pmG folks likely have other activities that pay the bills and that messiah development isn't their primary focus.

-- This could be possible.


More power to pmG! :buttrock:

-sf

Layer01
11-07-2005, 01:05 PM
@Paul
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=270540

i think this sums it up pretty well :)

Chewey
11-07-2005, 04:23 PM
Other activities? I donīt think so, at least for the core developers, itīs a full time job Iīm sure.
Is there really someone who thinks you can come up with a software as complex as Messiah on the fly? Come on :drool:
Others have more developers, much more, and offer less.
NT comes in mind. Bigger team and they doesnīt fail to constantly unimpress me with each release.
New horrible bugs, non-working old features and so forth.


@Paul
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=270540

quote,

We are in the process of working with some interested parties so we can grow the company and provide a base to deliver more of the things you like from us, in the way that we've wanted. For these things to happen you must understand that there are certain things we have to do and certain things we can't always do at the time; and you may not understand why.

end quote

I'm certain that we do benefit from the pmG staff's involvement with feature film special fx work.

DMack
11-08-2005, 09:28 AM
I'd love to know who the 3rd party is and how discussions are going......I guess all in good time....

Wireframes
11-08-2005, 06:28 PM
And what about auto-rig ???

Phil

Wireframes
11-28-2005, 09:31 PM
Are Pmg team in holidays ? ;)

Any news from them ?

DMack
11-29-2005, 07:59 AM
Yeah, gone kind of quiet hasn't it????

stooch
11-29-2005, 02:11 PM
isnt it always?

Wegg
11-29-2005, 11:50 PM
Rude!

It being so quite in here kind of reflects badly on me. :-(

I don't understand why people don't post more of their work. This has kind of turned into a tech support forum. :-/ Friggen booring. . .

Kid-Mesh
11-29-2005, 11:54 PM
Well I hope to a be a contributor soon....but maybe it's just ramp up of the holdiay season here in the states and people are some what busy :shrug:

Labuzz
11-30-2005, 07:11 AM
It being so quite in here kind of reflects badly on me. :-(

I don't understand why people don't post more of their work. This has kind of turned into a tech support forum. (misc.php?do=bbcode#quote) (misc.php?do=bbcode#quote)

I was trying the renderer recently ( during spare time) but to be honest it was painful ( crashs, weird results, hunting for information....). To be honest I am waiting for 201 , so I will be able to compare ( displace...).
When I hear that they are working on particles.....Ouch...well at the same time they need to find a new selling point ( displace is fading away quickly...).
In the end I would have prefer that they stick with a kick ass animation toolset. I have the feeling that messiah will stay an experimental product...

Panikos
11-30-2005, 07:29 AM
I 'd love to see a wedding between pmG and Luxology, if not, I can use both routes in parallel

DMack
11-30-2005, 08:03 AM
I am so with you on that Panikos - I'd really like to see messiah animate's set-up mode, expressions, armatures and super cool bones and other deformation effects built right into Luxologies suite (modo301) - it would just be amazing. I am really hoping that it is Lux that they are talking to...only time will tell. From the outside it would make so much sense, Lux have a really solid foundation, an unbelievable modeler....what looks like an amazingly fast renderer BUT at present, they lack animation tools. With Messiah animate's tools offering so much power combined with suuch ease, it would really move both camps on. Both companies in this increasingly consolidating world of 3D, would seemingly benefit from a marriage.

Don't these guys know eachother already? When Lux first had their website up (before Modo was relased) it mentioned PMG as a strategic partner or something like that.......Hmmmmm

Panikos
11-30-2005, 08:13 AM
To be honest, I've always desired that.
You are right. Both parties know each other very well, they used to work together (except Lyle). Now I am not aware of any backstage relations.

But paying attention on their courses and their plans and visions, I would love to become
the paranymph of such wedding.

It will make so many people very happy :)
A fantastic animation app, fast as hell, efficient, solid, complete combined with a modern modeler and a joined knowledge for rendering, hmmmm ....


I love both parties and whatever they create :)

AlexK
11-30-2005, 08:39 AM
I hate to be the showstopper here, but considering what the Lux guy said at the conference when he showed the renderer and the underlying IDE for Modo, I doubt that both products could work together. Modo works from an underlying module construct. More like a node based approach (or very object oriented in programming language). Well, I don't know if you can squash Messiah into that underlying layer or if the Lux guys can wrap their layer around Messiah.
If such a thing would happen, that would mean a complete rewrite of either system I guess. And that is taking some time, money and manpower.

Ah forget what I wrote. I'm just babbling. :wip:

Suricate
11-30-2005, 09:16 AM
I agree with Alex that I don't really see how pmG and Luxology should work together as they are different programs with a different architecture. A cooperation would mean that either side had to skip the last years of developing a renderer, this looks very unlikely.

It seems to me that pmG manouevred itself into a blind alley over the last years. They offer an uncomplete program: no modeler, a very strong but still uncomplete animation module and a promising, but even more uncomplete rendering module. If you specialize only on certain parts of the 3D pipeline, you must at least guarantee a stable data exchange with other applications, but even this is not really the case: the direct host connections are mostly broken while PointOvenPro is a 3rd party plug-in.

Needless to say, like everybody else in this forum I really like the strong points of messiah, so it would really be sad if it would remain just a quirky application. Let's hope for the next release ...

Panikos
11-30-2005, 09:25 AM
Suricate, name one piece of software that is now complete.

As far as "how", I leave that to the experts.
If there is will, there are ways.

hobermann
11-30-2005, 09:33 AM
Like Kid Mesh said, I think people are just busy. It also seems most people moved from the mailing list to here. But...

Here's something from the short I'm working on, about a ball who falls in love with a girl as she waits for the bus. These are two of 3 cars he rolls up in with hopes of impressing her, among other stunts. Being heartless, she gives him the boot. Literally. =) It's not finished work or anything, but I think they're looking promising.

The setup,
http://66.180.150.90/shot_001_v_023_319.jpg

Two of the cars,
http://66.180.150.90/bmw_ferrari_texture_test_001b_000.jpg

The rigging is pretty cool. Since the short's all about the girl, and she doesn't have a whole lot of crazy motion, I wanted to get some really wild deformed shapes as he whips around in the cars. Here's a screenshot of the rig...

http://66.180.150.90/ferrari_rig_screenshot.jpg

...what's really neat is,
a) You can steer and rotate the wheel objects as they're being deformed by the bones and they'll keep their deformation, as in "camel squeezing through a needle" type stuff, and

b) You can move the car forward, back, even rotate through 180 degrees, and the wheels will animate automatically however the car moves. I did it with expressions before noticing there's a plugin on zoogono. It took me like a whole freakin' day to figure out (YAY cosine!)

So I can do stuff like have the car rear up, smoke tires, and stretch out as it zooms off.

But still, this is just nights and weekends for me, so there's not a lot to say until it's done.

DMack
11-30-2005, 09:54 AM
Is the main time consumer the intellectual property development or the actual coding? If it's IP, then it would mean an exchange (I'm guessing from PMG to Lux) of core technologies. I agree that you couldn't simply glue the two together and that's not what I mean about the two hooking up. I suppose I've always seen it as a shame that they didn't get together when the Lux guys first split away........Before Lux code their animation part, there's still hope!

I think PMG are aware that they need to do something in order to meet the ever increasing demands that their users place upon them, and I guess that's why they are in talks....with someone.....

It's be great to get some news on this front...PMG...anything?

Let me know if this kind of topic is unhelpful and I'll quit :)

AlexK
11-30-2005, 09:59 AM
I don't understand why people don't post more of their work. This has kind of turned into a tech support forum. :-/ Friggen booring. . .
I'm working on getting some spare time to show you guys the panther we are working on. I hope to post something this week, but don't count on it.

Layer01
11-30-2005, 12:09 PM
but don't count on it.

oh...we will :deal:

;)

AlexK
11-30-2005, 12:18 PM
oh...we will :deal:

;)
:p :cool:

DMack
11-30-2005, 02:04 PM
Hey Alex, did my suggestion re muscle bones work for you?

MLMckenzie
11-30-2005, 02:35 PM
Since no one else has commented, just wanted to say the short looks like it's coming along nicely. The car rig sounds amazing, and I'd love to see more (you figured all that out in a day?? wow) Keep us posted! :applause:

Layer01
12-01-2005, 11:54 AM
Since no one else has commented, just wanted to say the short looks like it's coming along nicely. The car rig sounds amazing, and I'd love to see more (you figured all that out in a day?? wow) Keep us posted! :applause:

yeah i forgot to reply :blush:

also think it looks cool. but the wall in the BG is too grainy imho..its like the GI isnt sampled enough on the wall...anyway i'm sure you'll deal with it later on.
the car rig is awesome...id love to see how you set it up, especially the custom arrows (armatures?) i still havent figured out how to get custom armatures in...so any light you can shed would be awesome *cough* tute? *cough* ;)

DMack
12-15-2005, 10:17 AM
Ground control to PMG....do you copy PMG.........
Crackle.....Hissss.....Crackle.......

This is ground control, we'd like an update on your status PMG.....Do you copy........
Crackle.....Hissssss.......Chkkk.........

stooch
12-15-2005, 01:49 PM
<crickets> chirp chirp.....chirp chirp </crickets>

Chewey
12-15-2005, 03:03 PM
Ground control to PMG....do you copy PMG.........
Crackle.....Hissss.....Crackle.......

This is ground control, we'd like an update on your status PMG.....Do you copy........
Crackle.....Hissssss.......Chkkk.........

perhaps the drive through speaker at their day gig is nonoperational?;)

Mike RB
12-15-2005, 03:52 PM
ouch. burn.

Taron333
12-15-2005, 10:02 PM
Alright, a few semi-verbals in the title should be plenty to make sure you know I'm still speechless. How about I make up a whimsical story of how my cat attacked my foot, which swell to the size of a basketball and I couldn't fit it underneath my desk anymore to write into any threads for a lon...g...no....ok, ok....it's not true, but what is true is that we have focused intensely on the program and actually wrote a whole new section to it, which has altered part of the rendering pipeline as well as part of the motion pipeline to allow for the greatest improvement particles have had to date! Inside of messiah that is....of course! But who knows, it might cover a larger area in terms of innovation, because it is pretty well prepared to do so now. Yet, this has been a new beginning to the particles for us in a way and it will need some even more intense testing by our beta group, but it already made me jump and dance just as much as it made me punch the table...(Yeah, I stopped throwing wacom pens or beating the keyboard or monitor and realized that the physical pain ends up being just the same when I choose the table, but the work conditions won't change as an immediate consequence!)...it has been hard work, it is hard work, it always will be... that's all it is, but underneath all that and within and occasionally around it or on top of it it's a blast and I firmly believe you'll get to notice and share these sensations (I'm afraid all of them, but well...)!

I can't tell when the release will hit the beta crew, because it should have happened yesterday already, so I believe we're just preparing some more demos and a bit more documentation. The software is ready for the first rolling, but we've already ironed out the evolution for the next round. Anyway...it just has to be only a matter of days.

Then I will also make a whole lot of more noise again here....and maybe a new song, too, I didn't get to do that either....(the horror)...but, well, I apologize for my absence from here.

For all those who fell asleep down there... :surprised: ah...well...don't wake up, yet, you've got a few more minutes.... ;)

Kshshshss...pmG..Kshshshs...came around...kshshs...we're back in range! :wavey:
(that has to be the gayest smily I've seen so far!)

Anyway, once I'll have my first coffee, I'll make some more demo scenes and some nice things to post here, too! :beer:


Taron

aforetaste
12-15-2005, 10:35 PM
Sa-weeet!

Thanks Taron

Layer01
12-15-2005, 11:34 PM
awesome! :beer:

SpikeWorx
12-16-2005, 01:44 AM
I can't tell when the release will hit the beta crew, because it should have happened yesterday already, so I believe we're just preparing some more demos and a bit more documentation. The software is ready for the first rolling, but we've already ironed out the evolution for the next round. Anyway...it just has to be only a matter of days.

Please, take your time to make it stable and bullet-proof !
I prefer a stable version over a rushed out, but buggy one any day :thumbsup:

Parsec3d
12-16-2005, 04:43 AM
Alright, a few semi-verbals in the title should be plenty to make sure you know I'm still speechless. How about I make up a whimsical story of how my cat attacked my foot, which swell to the size of a basketball and I couldn't fit it underneath my desk anymore


hehehe Lol ,, nice one , but aside from the fact that you are stealing Linda Idea ,, she showed some very convicing pictures, then again she started painting better after that,,, mmmm ... kyty, kyty, kyty ,, come kyty kyty ...


great to c you around Man! I was really starting to feel scared of such a long silence on your blog,(your web page , your music page , your pictures page , the daily sketch forum, bla bla bla,,,, )

isobarxx
12-16-2005, 07:04 AM
Woot for particles! I agree about bug testing. I'd imagine the data structures are insanely complex with something like messiah (or 3D in general) where you have no idea what people will try.... but I remember somebody posted a timeline a while back, and you guys pretty much had a consistent yearly release around.... March? So it sounds like you're ahead of schedule. Please wait to update all the documentation now that Develop is up for release!

You know you could easily wiki the docs... or at least the programming docs. They're already being published as HTML so I imagine it wouldn't be TOO much work. I use PHP all day and the comments are often more useful than the documentation itself. There's even more than a few auto-documentation devices for C/C++. I think the return on comprehensive docs would be far greater than the typing time involved.



MLMckenzie and Layer01 thanks! That means a lot to me. I'm in key framing land right now so I'll post something for critique when that's done. The controls are proxy objects made in LW. It's cool to see how the software is growing to accommodate different people's styles.

I've said this before, but what I really like about messiah is how I don't have to think too hard about how it works. It's more like a really cool toy box; it just works the way my brain is wired (and thank jebus for that!).

DMack
12-16-2005, 07:52 AM
Good to hear some news. Anything happening to good old animate (Except particles which are bound in with render)? It all seems to be render orientated at the moment?

SpikeWorx
12-16-2005, 08:29 AM
Good to hear some news. Anything happening to good old animate (Except particles which are bound in with render)? It all seems to be render orientated at the moment?
I donīt see a future or need for Messiah:animate, since Messiah:Studio workstation is just marginally more expensive.
Iīm betting that Messiah:animate will be skipped in favour of Studio:Workstation ;)

Nichod
12-16-2005, 09:35 AM
Any chance the manipulators have been updated? The current setup can be quite akward to manipulate.

Softbody improvements/fixes?

Hair?

Fur?

World domination?

But serious. I do hope that more than just particles have been worked on. Really bug fixes, and improvements/changes to existing tools would make me happy. Thanks for the update.

The watcher goes back to watching.

stooch
12-16-2005, 08:13 PM
since softbodies are particles driving vertices, do the particle developments spell an improvement in softbodies?

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