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View Full Version : Recording Video soon to be illigal ?


pgp_protector
11-01-2005, 11:49 PM
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/01/hollywood_after_the_.html

Looks like it wont make it, don't see how it really could, but it's scarry that they would even try it.

Nother Writeup with link to the bill
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004106.php
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/analog_hole_discussion_draft.pdf

monovich
11-02-2005, 12:17 AM
wow. that's a bitter pill.

what a mess. It had better not pass.

TraceR
11-02-2005, 12:31 AM
Hollywood is really starting to make life hard for us consumers. They must be losing a ton of money considering all the money they have put into new products that will keep us from pirating films. The funny thing is, people who want to pirate will still find a way to skirt the system and do what they wish anyway. While the good, law abiding citizen can't make a backup of his favorite DVD. I think the whole thing is just stupid to be honest. :shrug:

Per-Anders
11-02-2005, 12:34 AM
and all the while steve jobs is making even more money...

knellotron
11-02-2005, 03:05 AM
This is really sad and outrageous news. This will hurt independent & student film more than they realize.

flawedprefect
11-02-2005, 03:50 AM
Hahahaha! this made me laugh out loud:

You can "accept a contract" by changing the channel. If you change the channel from 3 to 4, and the show on channel 4 has a signal that says it can't be recorded, then by watching channel 4, you're "making an agreement" to waive your time-shifting right in exchange for the show.

Legal jargan has entered the world of the couch potato.

"Honey - would you like me to get you your TV dinner?"
"Am I bound by contract to waive my chauvenist pig rights in exchange for it?" :banghead:

PhantomDesign
11-02-2005, 04:01 AM
I hate to think of the implications for small studios, independent film makers & individuals that produce any sort of quality film. This would affect both of my brothers & possible affect me eventually.

Vozzz
11-02-2005, 05:52 AM
I completely agree it is stupid. Pirates will always find a way to get around it, always did, always will, while law abiding citizens won't be able to make backups. Like what if oyur dog eats it?

Mudvin
11-02-2005, 07:47 AM
The most ridiculous thing in all this copyright things, is that ppl start taking some attention only when this crap starts touching their TVs. Nobody cares, that absolutely the same shit happenings with software market.

(...)
11-02-2005, 07:51 AM
Recording Video soon to be illigal ?

Strictly speaking it already is. It's like taping from the radio, it's illegal, but no one bothers to enforce it.

arvid
11-02-2005, 08:36 AM
Those trying their best to abide to the laws will be the ones who suffer from these things, for everyone else, everything is still free and open :shrug: screwed up, isn't it.. :hmm:

BillB
11-02-2005, 08:48 AM
law abiding citizens won't be able to make backups. Like what if oyur dog eats it?Not that I disagree with you in general, but that's a poor example! Same as anything else your dog eats - shoot the dog, then go buy another shoe, remote or dvd.

Steve Green
11-02-2005, 08:50 AM
I really despair about the people who run the entertainment industry when I read stuff like this. It's almost as if they want people to give up on the media they create.

People should not have to worry about DRM to record a programme, or CD-copy protection when they want to transfer it to an ipod.

It would be political suicide for any government to pull this kind of stunt overnight. I can't see it happening, but I never underestimate the idiocy of the people in power.

- Steve

JeroenDStout
11-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Oh fer... don't they realise that anything that can be encoded can be broken by 'the internet'? There's no stopping it, thousands of people online, one has to break any code eventually. There's no 'safe platform' for anything popular. I really wish they'd nock this annoying stuff and just let people have comfortable media again as at the same time the smaller creators get shot in the foot with this.

<gets into a fit>
And remove the damn Disney previews of a Incredibles DVD I bought! What on earth is the matter with people?

Julius
11-02-2005, 10:13 AM
America is being turned into a jail right infront of our eyes and the world is following. Has everybody forgot what we live for and what others in the past have died for? Freedom.

These money hungry executives need a good kick in the arse. They are fighting a war they cannot win.

Essania
11-02-2005, 10:59 AM
and all the while steve jobs is making even more money...

What this have to do with this thread?

Bill Gates doesn't make money anymore?
Larry Elison neither?
Google?
Universal?
Sony Picture?
Dreamworks?

Ah I get it, you're one of those who hate M. Jobs, as it supposed that all CGtalk members are hating him.

JeroenDStout
11-02-2005, 11:18 AM
America is being turned into a jail right infront of our eyes and the world is following. Has everybody forgot what we live for and what others in the past have died for? Freedom.

These money hungry executives need a good kick in the arse. They are fighting a war they cannot win.
Just a swift piece of paper to their face and: "Nock it!"
That was enough to keep Mr. Incredible from influencing with bad ideas.

jscheel
11-02-2005, 12:52 PM
The United States of Hollywood has enacted a bill that will require a studio representative to be sold with every new piece of video equipment. Hollywood executives hail this bill as the greatest achievement since DRM. "We feel that our studios must be represented at every viewing, even in the private household," said President Dan Glickman in a press conference yesterday. The bill, which takes effect immediately, was unanimously passed in a closed meeting of the Senate on Monday. Opponents of the bill were unable to vote after being rushed to a local hospital moments before the voting procedures began. Hospital representatives have declined to comment, but sources inside the emergency room say the senators receive multiple, life-threatening paper cuts when studio executives assailed them with a barrage of legal injunctions. Protesters met in Jameson Square hours after the bill was passed into law. "We've got to stand up against this oppression. Big Hollywood is taking control, and we've got to stop it," said John Henry, a protester who was handing out blank dvd-r media at the rally.

Spritemare
11-02-2005, 01:13 PM
sounds like the beginning of communism to me

Layer01
11-02-2005, 01:20 PM
The United States of Hollywood has enacted a bill that will require a studio representative to be sold with every new piece of video equipment. Hollywood executives hail this bill as the greatest achievement since DRM. "We feel that our studios must be represented at every viewing, even in the private household," said President Dan Glickman in a press conference yesterday. The bill, which takes effect immediately, was unanimously passed in a closed meeting of the Senate on Monday. Opponents of the bill were unable to vote after being rushed to a local hospital moments before the voting procedures began. Hospital representatives have declined to comment, but sources inside the emergency room say the senators receive multiple, life-threatening paper cuts when studio executives assailed them with a barrage of legal injunctions. Protesters met in Jameson Square hours after the bill was passed into law. "We've got to stand up against this oppression. Big Hollywood is taking control, and we've got to stop it," said John Henry, a protester who was handing out blank dvd-r media at the rally.


LOL
so close to the truth it hurts..

America is being turned into a jail right infront of our eyes and the world is following. Has everybody forgot what we live for and what others in the past have died for? Freedom.

These money hungry executives need a good kick in the arse. They are fighting a war they cannot win.

very true, with with all this terrorism "who-ha" being shoved in our faces by the media, the "free" countries are having their rights stripped in the name of "safty". in doing so they are becoming more and more like the countries they are fighting against.
and in this rush of "safty" bills bucket loads of small bills will be passed that will seemingly have little to no effect or change in the present but will pave the way for all sorts of easy policy changes in the long run. and make no mistake about it, the entertainment industry will be right in there slipping things though the cracks while everyone's busy convincing them selves they are so much better of now they have less rights.


what we need here is a good ol' fasion revolution....down with the fat capitalist pigs of wes...... this person has been indefinatly detained due to the inappropriate actions he has undertaken against our freedom

PhilWesson
11-02-2005, 01:34 PM
Ridiculous.
But yes, there will eventually be a way around it.

People, I'd watch out about getting too into conversations about freedoms and whatnot.
We don't want to give anyone reason to close this thread.

Dennik
11-02-2005, 01:51 PM
This is like entering a second dark age at the peak of our civilisation. Its just ridiculous.
I think Jobs is one of the smartest people on the planet. Sell video cheap and to as many people as possible. It makes so much sense and people respond to that. See the other thread about Apple's first month sales on video iPod content.

The only thing that will prevent people from copying copyrighted material, is to give it cheap enough to be widely affordable.

Of course that bill is nothing compared to the millions of Africans facing starvation and death this winter. But well... We people have always things to complain about. :)

plotz
11-02-2005, 02:04 PM
Just a gentle prod here to remind US citizens that complaints and concerns voiced in these forums do nothing to affect an outccome. It's almost as easy to e-mail your concerns to your elected officials as it is to post them here.

The only way to defeat these preemtive industry innitiatives is to fire off a response as a citizen each time a crazy legislative "innitiative" sees the light of day. That's one of the things that's kept the broadcast flag from being shoved down our throats.

If you don't participate in the process you can't complain about the outcome. (Because it's too late.)

pgp_protector
11-02-2005, 04:27 PM
Just a gentle prod here to remind US citizens that complaints and concerns voiced in these forums do nothing to affect an outccome. It's almost as easy to e-mail your concerns to your elected officials as it is to post them here.

The only way to defeat these preemtive industry innitiatives is to fire off a response as a citizen each time a crazy legislative "innitiative" sees the light of day. That's one of the things that's kept the broadcast flag from being shoved down our throats.

If you don't participate in the process you can't complain about the outcome. (Because it's too late.)

True, but how many knew about this before it was posted ?

Harrad
11-02-2005, 04:58 PM
What happens to the devices that are already in peoples homes that do this? Would every body have to hand in our caputer cards? lol... Plus the fact that you can't police the whole world, this would never work!

Its already been poster here and everywhere else, but there has always been pirates and there is always going to be someone that wants to break the system (usally some 14 year old kid!). The main reason people pirate is because they dont want to pay stupid prices for things. Lower the Retail price and aim for the masses! They would make more money in the long run.

slaughters
11-02-2005, 05:01 PM
Heh :p - I have not read the article in question, but I sure did get a kick out of the responses:

"entering a second dark age at the peak of our civilisation"

"America is being turned into a jail right infront of our eyes"

"sounds like the beginning of communism to me"

:curious:

P.S. - Let's not get into all the lame excuses for pirating that people always bring up please. That's a good way to get this thread locked.

Schwinnz
11-02-2005, 05:02 PM
Sorry to say that, but this kinda sh*t only happens in the US.

The govt is so messed up...

They should show up the bill of rights in more cases than keeping guns available for everyone...

Schwinnz
11-02-2005, 05:06 PM
sounds like the beginning of communism to me
You have obviously NO IDEA what communism is. :curious:

Dennik
11-02-2005, 05:06 PM
Heh :p - I have not read the article in question, but I sure did get a kick out of the responses:

"entering a second dark age at the peak of our civilisation"

"America is being turned into a jail right infront of our eyes"

"sounds like the beginning of communism to me"

:curious:

P.S. - Let's not get into all the lame excuses for pirating that people always bring up please. That's a good way to get this thread locked.

And whats your excuse for having a VCR at your house? ;)

slaughters
11-02-2005, 05:07 PM
And whats your excuse for having a VCR at your house? ;)Real good way of *not* bringing it up Dennik.

Schwinnz
11-02-2005, 05:09 PM
P.S. - Let's not get into all the lame excuses for pirating that people always bring up please. That's a good way to get this thread locked.

Anyway I really don't think piracy is what really hurts and scares Hollywood. They fear indy people, and other people having more fun filming themselves with friends than watching their movies that all have the same bad taste.

Dennik
11-02-2005, 05:09 PM
Real good way of *not* bringing it up Dennik.

I understand its a can of worms if they finnaly decide that everybody having a VCR since the 80s should be accused of piracy. That bil is simply insane.

monkeybeach
11-02-2005, 05:32 PM
Hollywood is really starting to make life hard for us consumers. They must be losing a ton of money considering all the money they have put into new products that will keep us from pirating films.

Money they never made is NOT money lost, so they can't technically be losing money at all. And they're not. They do however see this whole "piracy" thing as a great means to make even more money, and get more control.

I wasn't a big fan of capitalism before, but this new form of it is just intolerable. Why is it that the sacred almighty precious OWNERSHIP, one of the pillars of capitalism, only means something if you're rich? Things I bought and paid for should be mine to do with as I please, even if that means recording a TV show (that I also paid for) or an album (again, paid for) or changing the regional coding (as if that thing wasn't unnecessary bordering on criminal already) of my DVD player more than five times, etcetera. Things like this makes me suspect that Disney wasn't the only nazi in the entertainment business :P

Rudity
11-02-2005, 05:37 PM
Anyway I really don't think piracy is what really hurts and scares Hollywood. They fear indy people, and other people having more fun filming themselves with friends than watching their movies that all have the same bad taste.

Ya man, I agree. They fear the Indy!!

An example. A good buddy of mine and his friend, bought a G4, and XL5 camera 2 years ago, and started making a wakeboard/surf/skate/snowboard video centralised around Vancouver Island. They just finished it. It cost them like 9000 bucks to make. Its 2 hours long.
This kid is the biggest stoner I know, and in 2 years he made an awesome video.
If my stoner drop-out friend can make a 2 hour long feature in 2 years for 9000 bucks, ANYONE can.
It sure lit a fire under my ass seeing him pull this off.

Fear the Indy hollywood, its on its way.

Ps. he's in thailand right now, a trip funded by his logging, and video profits.

I hope they don't pull this off and make it harder for independant film makers.
Does this include machinama??

pgp_protector
11-02-2005, 06:46 PM
Another good secion of this "bill"

If you have an analog video input device (Scan Converters anyone) the maximum resolution for the output to a VGA monitor is 720 X 480

Make a scan converter and sell it to make money, (Violates section 101), and you can be fined Half a million dollars & get up to 5 years in jail. Do it again , and it's a million dollar fine & 10 years in jail.

So dont go making any devices to convert you Progressive scan output of your DVD player to play on your High REZ Monitors.

Lyr
11-02-2005, 08:29 PM
Screw Hollywood. I'm not buying anymore dvd movies, I quit going to the theatre years ago. If you find this behaviour offensive I suggest you do the same and boycott the industry that proposes such insane regulations.

gunslingerblack
11-02-2005, 08:34 PM
haha i have no lame excuses for being a pirate, i just like the complimentary peg leg and the eyepatch i got when i joined the union....

flawedprefect
11-02-2005, 09:40 PM
Funny story - I sometimes make ads for singers touring. The agency gives us a CD of the artist to use for backing music in the ad - usually off the store shelf. Some kind of new anti-piracy method prevented me from ripping the track off this CD. The agent sat there, blank faced and said "but it's ok: we're here. Why can't you rip it?" This was years ago, mind, and things have slackened off a little.

I am aware that some promotors get copies of music that can be used for such purposes, but alas, I have yet to see any such thing. Most agencies supply us with off-the-shelf goods.

:surprised

rstratton
11-02-2005, 09:54 PM
so is this just something they are doing to analog video because it seems like that is what is being said??....if so I don't understand since analog is suppose to be gone shorty anyway....man all these people are a pain in the as* who think they are loosing money because of pirates, not because 90% of what comes out of hollywood is crap...:banghead:

Neil
11-02-2005, 10:04 PM
I hope it passes. It would be funny to see what happens in response.

Flog
11-02-2005, 10:25 PM
I don't think this will fly far. You think of all the BIG companies who make recording devices in the first place, they'll have to go against these BIG Companies themselves, everybody from Time Warner Cable to Sony itself.

Hollywood could fix it's problems in 3 ways

Use the Robert Rodriguez price tag. Sin City=40 million

The guilds have gotten out of hand. Everybody gets a peice, and so the movie that would cost 30-75 million to make now took 100-150 million to make. So they need to be more budget conscience instead of just throwing money at it.

Spending less on movies also makes you more likely to take more risks, and more often than not you'll make bigger on some risks and get more heartfelt productions.
Then on the very top, charge less for movie tickets. Tickets are too much. You can make your money in bulk not price spikes.

They have done independant studies on music downloaders. The downloaders spent more money on music than the average person did. Basically all they did was piss of their own customers. AVG person spent $2 dollars a month Avg Downloader spent $9 a month according to the survey.

You can't attack one problem and think that is your answer, you must attack all the problems, and you can start on the bigger hitters. Price tickets, cost to make movies, and better movies.

This summer of movies was bland and so was the box office. Plus it was more expensive, so why bother.

Movie companies are killing movie companies.

BillB
11-02-2005, 11:51 PM
There's no stopping it, thousands of people online, one has to break any code eventually. There's no 'safe platform' for anything popular.So you can point me to a proggie to remove windows media drm? Bzzt. Apple's drm? Bzzt (ok, there was a hack for that, but it's closed). We're pretty close to uncrackable drm, the next generation will be tougher too. Don't count on it being crackable anytime soon. DVD's css was very weak by comparison.

pgp_protector
11-02-2005, 11:54 PM
So you can point me to a proggie to remove windows media drm? Bzzt. Apple's drm? Bzzt (ok, there was a hack for that, but it's closed). We're pretty close to uncrackable drm, the next generation will be tougher too. Don't count on it being crackable anytime soon. DVD's css was very weak by comparison.

Why Yes I Can (For the Windows Paltform),but the forums rulz wont allow me :D

BillB
11-02-2005, 11:54 PM
Things I bought and paid for should be mine to do with as I please Then I suspect you don't understand what you bought (or didn't think your rant thru). If you want to "buy" a song or movie in the way you're talking about, it'll cost you 6 or seven figures. $20 doesn't get you ownership of a $100 million dollar movie.

BillB
11-03-2005, 12:03 AM
Why Yes I Can (For the Windows Paltform),but the forums rulz wont allow me :DHa, I'll be darned - last I heard it wasn't possible. Unless you're talking about reencoding by capturing playback, that's no crack. That's the analogue hole of which we speak, kind of :)

LetterRip
11-03-2005, 12:18 AM
Strictly speaking it already is. It's like taping from the radio, it's illegal, but no one bothers to enforce it.

I'm not a lawyer, but it is well known that the US Supreme Court ruled in the Betamax case - Sony vs. Universal that time shifting constitutes fair use and inherent to that ruling is that space shifting also constitutes fair use (Ie transfering of broadcast content to VHS).

LetterRip

pgp_protector
11-03-2005, 12:23 AM
Ha, I'll be darned - last I heard it wasn't possible. Unless you're talking about reencoding by capturing playback, that's no crack. That's the analogue hole of which we speak, kind of :)

close, it's digital (No analog)

It's a Sound Card Driver Emulatior.

I.E. you play your Audio files ->VirtualSoundCard-> SoundCard

And The VirtualSoundCard drops the MP3, you loose all tags though, have to Start/Stop Recording, and it Records ALL system sounds (beeps warning ect)

chrisWhite
11-03-2005, 06:07 PM
This is so retarded, I can understand them fighting piracy and I think they should, but they can do it in much better ways than locking up everything so no one wants the trouble of buying it in the first place. While I don't think the iTunes model is perfect, it's a big step in the right direction and it would go a long way if the music and movies industry would do the same.

As a video-editor this makes is really nasty for me sometimes. I often get DVD copies of footage shot instead of the typical mini-DVs and while I have some legit software to capture the DVDs on the Mac for Final Cut, I have yet to find any legal solution on the PC. I hate to think how much worse these new proposals would be.

monkeybeach
11-06-2005, 10:59 AM
Then I suspect you don't understand what you bought (or didn't think your rant thru). If you want to "buy" a song or movie in the way you're talking about, it'll cost you 6 or seven figures. $20 doesn't get you ownership of a $100 million dollar movie.

not quite. the problem is that having money/power gives someone the right to arbitrarily redefine what i bought. for instance, it is (or used to be) perfectly legal where i live to make copies of records for personal use. given the very limited lifespan of cd's, this seems quite reasonable. but with the increasingly weird and destructive and sometimes outright illegal copy protections, this just isn't possible anymore. i'm unsure if the actual laws have changed, but the recording industry just decided to make it so.

i understand and (to a degree) support why companies constantly strive to increase their profits, but when they seek to do it through legislation rather than through good business, they quite frankly make me sick.

in closing, i'm not really interested in owning a $100 million dollar movie (in fact i find the current definition of "intellectual property" highly questionable). i'm interested in getting that movie to play on my PC. because when i purchase a DVD-drive and disc, i expect the drive to be able to play the disc, and the disc to be playable. simple as that.

Per-Anders
11-06-2005, 09:41 PM
What this have to do with this thread?

Bill Gates doesn't make money anymore?
Larry Elison neither?
Google?
Universal?
Sony Picture?
Dreamworks?

Ah I get it, you're one of those who hate M. Jobs, as it supposed that all CGtalk members are hating him.

You're obviously not very up on your news facts and rather quick to jump to "chip on your shoulder" conclusions.

I'm not disparaging Mr Jobs in the slightest (so get down off that high horse and engage the old grey cells for a moment).

What I am pointing out and would have assumed others would understand and see is that while the various entertainment industries are shooting themselves in the foot trying to stop a flood Steve Jobs is riding the wave.

He's finally started to sell shows with the video ipod (which while now rather old news you must have missed), admitedly it's very late in the game, and should have been done a long time ago, but better late than never. I am sure more media content wil follow in due course and the crux of my point was that whilst the rest of the business is busy alienating it's audience Steve Jobs is busy getting richer by being a little more far sighted.

ThE_JacO
11-06-2005, 10:58 PM
Just a gentle prod here to remind US citizens that complaints and concerns voiced in these forums do nothing to affect an outccome. It's almost as easy to e-mail your concerns to your elected officials as it is to post them here.

The only way to defeat these preemtive industry innitiatives is to fire off a response as a citizen each time a crazy legislative "innitiative" sees the light of day. That's one of the things that's kept the broadcast flag from being shoved down our throats.

If you don't participate in the process you can't complain about the outcome. (Because it's too late.)

I disagree,
hadn't people kept whining about it, the thread would have dropped to page5 in a matter of hours, and it could have taken me several more days to read about it.

thanks to popular indignation I saw the thread and am bumping it for somebody else to see.

sure, people whining here and not doing anything won't directly make a difference in any regards, but they could help the ripples travelling further all the same.

and here I'm adding my bump (and then posting this on our internal mailing list and start looking for what can be done and who is organizing something against the corporate whores trying to build a media prison that will only contain honest consumers).

it's stupid moves like this that made me end up with an original RHCP album that won't play in 3 systems out of 4 because of the copy protection, that made all my region2 DVDs unplayable here in Oz and many other things.
this shit DOES affect me, and I want it to be kept loud.

plotz
11-06-2005, 11:10 PM
My point wasn't that people shouldn't post their oppinions here, I think it's valuable too. What I was trying to say is that if you ONLY post here your voice will not affect the outcome of the legislation.

My secondary point is that it's almost as easy to send your concerns to an elected official as it is to post here. (They don't have forums, but they all have e-mail addresses.)

Here's a link to EFF's on-line form letter:

https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr001=s9g9i3yd41.app13b&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=181

Trident_2K5
11-09-2005, 09:25 AM
Well, even IF such a scheme would be able protect from piracy (it does not), IMHO after the recent Sony rootkit scandal it should be pretty evident that such proposals should be not just rejected every time they show up, but actively banned. What if that VEIL thing has malicious uses too?

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11-09-2005, 09:25 AM
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