Jhonus
11-16-2002, 02:17 AM
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm
View Full Version : Mac VS. PC III: Mac Slaughtered Again
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Array
11-16-2002, 02:19 AM
lol, no surprises there. Mac OSX is great and all....too bad it only runs on apple hardware :thumbsdow
alphatron
11-16-2002, 02:57 AM
The performance gap is staggering...the P4 system is nearly twice as fast in all the tests while costing $600 less.
PokeChop
11-16-2002, 04:14 AM
Holy Crapola! You must read this article! Call it what you will but the numbers don't lie. Hyper Threading ROCKS!
It might be time to send Michael Dell some Darth Vader VISA funds folks!
It might be time to send Michael Dell some Darth Vader VISA funds folks!
MacRonin
11-16-2002, 01:41 PM
Insert obligatory Mac Zealot praises & excuses here...
But, like that Dylan guy said; the times, they are a changing...
;^p (http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002556)
But, like that Dylan guy said; the times, they are a changing...
;^p (http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002556)
gabe28
11-17-2002, 01:59 AM
Oddly enough, the release of this 3.06 gig P4 has not increased the speed or performance of my PIII 800. Maybe I'm not doing something right or maybe I need to upgrade to Windows XP before I'll see the speed increases. Can someone please offer any gueses about what I'm not doing right because I'd sure love to get some better times on my Lightwave renders. Thanks.
Array
11-17-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by gabe28
Oddly enough, the release of this 3.06 gig P4 has not increased the speed or performance of my PIII 800. Maybe I'm not doing something right or maybe I need to upgrade to Windows XP before I'll see the speed increases. Can someone please offer any gueses about what I'm not doing right because I'd sure love to get some better times on my Lightwave renders. Thanks.
Ha, you have a very strange sense of humor my friend :beer:
Oddly enough, the release of this 3.06 gig P4 has not increased the speed or performance of my PIII 800. Maybe I'm not doing something right or maybe I need to upgrade to Windows XP before I'll see the speed increases. Can someone please offer any gueses about what I'm not doing right because I'd sure love to get some better times on my Lightwave renders. Thanks.
Ha, you have a very strange sense of humor my friend :beer:
gabe28
11-17-2002, 02:04 AM
hehe... along that same line of thought, wouldn't it be cool to have a processor with Moore's law built in: every eighteen months it doubles it's speed.
alphatron
11-17-2002, 04:11 AM
Isn't that along the lines of what transmeta wanted to accomplish? processecor upgrades through code-morphing or something.
gabe28
11-18-2002, 02:39 AM
transmeta?... hell, I don't know, I was just being dumb. Chips that rewire themselves sound pretty sci-fi to me but, hey, I guess I'll get one if it gets me those fast Lightwave renders that I want.
CourtJester
11-18-2002, 02:14 PM
yeah but who wants to have to pay for "upgrades" all the time?
oh wait, we do that now. nevermind...:D
oh wait, we do that now. nevermind...:D
arvid
11-18-2002, 02:44 PM
"After looking at these startling benchmark results, we have to gaze over at our beautifully-designed Macs and ask, "Is it worth it?" "
heh. not even supermodels are *that* superficial, right?
heh. not even supermodels are *that* superficial, right?
beaker
11-18-2002, 03:32 PM
>>"After looking at these startling benchmark results, we have to gaze over at our beautifully-designed Macs and ask, "Is it worth it?" "
Most of the time it's the apps that make the platform, not always the speed. Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it.
Most of the time it's the apps that make the platform, not always the speed. Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it.
arvid
11-18-2002, 03:40 PM
Fair point since this is an article focused on digital videoediting, but in just about all other areas, software support is very poor on mac, and at this point espcially on osx. ;)
takkun
11-18-2002, 05:09 PM
Most of the time it's the apps that make the platform, not always the speed. Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it. I'd love to see the render times on a Mac trying to render HD resolution After Effects shots! LOL!!! :D I guess you could always set up a cheap PC render farm.
phatgroovn
11-18-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by beaker
>>"After looking at these startling benchmark results, we have to gaze over at our beautifully-designed Macs and ask, "Is it worth it?" "
Most of the time it's the apps that make the platform, not always the speed. Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it.
Exactly. I use a PC only for 3D stuff because I can get decent video cards and render times, but will always keep a current Mac workstation for general usage and all my video needs. Some say to use Premier on the PC, which i guess isn't bad, until you've used Final Cut or Avid.
>>"After looking at these startling benchmark results, we have to gaze over at our beautifully-designed Macs and ask, "Is it worth it?" "
Most of the time it's the apps that make the platform, not always the speed. Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it.
Exactly. I use a PC only for 3D stuff because I can get decent video cards and render times, but will always keep a current Mac workstation for general usage and all my video needs. Some say to use Premier on the PC, which i guess isn't bad, until you've used Final Cut or Avid.
beaker
11-18-2002, 05:55 PM
>>I'd love to see the render times on a Mac trying to render HD resolution After Effects shots! LOL!!! I guess you could always set up a cheap PC render farm.
ILM seems to be pretty happy with it. They used it on EP1, EP2, Planet of the Apes and many other movies for many sequences. Pixel Magic does well also, they used afterfx on macs on Blade 2 and Driven. Speed isn't everything(though it is nice).
ILM seems to be pretty happy with it. They used it on EP1, EP2, Planet of the Apes and many other movies for many sequences. Pixel Magic does well also, they used afterfx on macs on Blade 2 and Driven. Speed isn't everything(though it is nice).
Amyd
11-18-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by beaker
Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it.
Ummm, first of all, FCP is natively 8-bit, so unless you plan to use only the real-time effects of the said cards (or render in AE - in 16 bit dithered down to 10 - even cross-dissolves), your great 10-bit card will be severely underused... :eek:
Secondly, let's count together:
1. Media 100 844/Xi
2. DVS SD/HD Station
3. DPS Hollywood (ancient history already)
See, we're already up to 3, aren't we? :applause:
Granted, some of them aren't available till December, some of them need some integration in an OEM solution and some of them are only available through E-Bay... but, they are there, and they are all well under $50k.
Ah, not to mention that a turn-key BOXX starts at around $35k... :cool:
So, as much as we all love Macs, it's a bit of a over-statement (read: lie) that there are no 10 bit SD/HD solutions on the PC/Windows combo, for more expensive but still reasonable prices.
Cheers,
Andrei
Like FCP, 10 bit output(no 10 bit output on windows for less than 50k, there are 3 companies that make 10 bit output for mac for only 1-2k), and HD output for under 10k totally makes it worth it.
Ummm, first of all, FCP is natively 8-bit, so unless you plan to use only the real-time effects of the said cards (or render in AE - in 16 bit dithered down to 10 - even cross-dissolves), your great 10-bit card will be severely underused... :eek:
Secondly, let's count together:
1. Media 100 844/Xi
2. DVS SD/HD Station
3. DPS Hollywood (ancient history already)
See, we're already up to 3, aren't we? :applause:
Granted, some of them aren't available till December, some of them need some integration in an OEM solution and some of them are only available through E-Bay... but, they are there, and they are all well under $50k.
Ah, not to mention that a turn-key BOXX starts at around $35k... :cool:
So, as much as we all love Macs, it's a bit of a over-statement (read: lie) that there are no 10 bit SD/HD solutions on the PC/Windows combo, for more expensive but still reasonable prices.
Cheers,
Andrei
takkun
11-18-2002, 07:33 PM
Some say to use Premier on the PC, which i guess isn't bad, until you've used Final Cut or Avid. If your doing just DV then use Vegas Video 3, it's about 1000 times better then Premiere and it's real-time preview of all effects and transitions blows away FCP's realtime implementation. Don't get me wrong, FCP's the greatest thing that Apple's ever done. (a close second is the "pothead girl" switch ad :D ) If your doing uncompressed video then get a Video Toaster 2. It's only $5K with DF4, I think. ILM seems to be pretty happy with it. They used it on EP1, EP2, Planet of the Apes and many other movies for many sequences. ILM uses after effects on macs for film work? I would think that they would mainly use either shake/combustion/flame/inferno/digital fusion or the like. Can you post a link to where you got this info?
Thalaxis
11-18-2002, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by gabe28
hehe... along that same line of thought, wouldn't it be cool to have a processor with Moore's law built in: every eighteen months it doubles it's speed.
You mean like some older IBM mainframe machines? You'd pay an upgrade price (something fairly massive) and in the end an engineer would wander over to your site and flip a switch...
BTW, is the rampant ignorance of these DVE writers getting worse or what? How can the author not be aware of the difference between Itanium and P4, let alone the fact that HyperThreading has been available for some time in the P4 Xeon line?
hehe... along that same line of thought, wouldn't it be cool to have a processor with Moore's law built in: every eighteen months it doubles it's speed.
You mean like some older IBM mainframe machines? You'd pay an upgrade price (something fairly massive) and in the end an engineer would wander over to your site and flip a switch...
BTW, is the rampant ignorance of these DVE writers getting worse or what? How can the author not be aware of the difference between Itanium and P4, let alone the fact that HyperThreading has been available for some time in the P4 Xeon line?
beaker
11-18-2002, 09:00 PM
>>Ummm, first of all, FCP is natively 8-bit, so unless you plan to use only the real-time effects of the said cards (or render in AE - in 16 bit dithered down to 10 - even cross-dissolves), your great 10-bit card will be severely underused...
10 bit works just fine with final cut pro. You just need to use the card's codec to utilize it's 10 bit ability.
>>Secondly, let's count together:
I guess I should have said under 40k, not 50k, my bad. Still beats the pants off anything pricewise on the windows side.
>>1. Media 100 844/Xi
I forgot about this one, it just came out a week ago. The thing is Media 100 says on their own site that it's 25k price is barebones. A configured system starts at 40k according to their own press release:
"844/Xi will be available in December 2002 with prices starting at $24,995 for Media 100 software and hardware. Complete system configurations will start at about $40,000 and will be available exclusively through authorized 844/X value-added resellers."
2. DVS SD/HD Station
This only sells as a 50k framestore box or as an OEM card that is sold only in turnkey systems(HDBOXX = 50k, so the card is still pretty expensive).
3. DPS Hollywood (ancient history already)
Where have you been? DPS canned this product over a year and a half ago. The only HD product they sell now is the dpsRealityHD and it doesn't do 10 bit(no SD 10 bit products either). Anyways, DPS products are not really made for editing. They are really like a Accom DDR. I use to use the PAR and PVR products back in the mid 90's. They were great for video playback(no drop frames was awsome back then) but horrible for editing stuff. They have speed razor for it(sucks) and they also try to get you to use Digital Fusion which is a compositor, not an editor. Like putting a square peg in a round hole, you can do it but it takes alot of force.
>>Granted, some of them aren't available till December, some of them need some integration in an OEM solution and some of them are only available through E-Bay
Your funny. Point me to a HDStation, media 100 844x, etc.. on ebay, Ill go buy it myself for ebay prices. All of these products are under 6 months old. No sane person is going to be selling them on ebay unless they went belly up. Even if they did, they wouldn't part for them on ebay. I did try checking for the hollywood card but no luck on ebay.
>>Ah, not to mention that a turn-key BOXX starts at around $35k...
Nope, Boxx's own press releases on their site say it starts at $49,500.
Now, there is a company called Bluefish444 that is comming out with a line of HD/SD 10 bit cards for a very resonable price on windows. Bluefish444 is the windows side of Digital Voodoo cards. So all the windows users will get resonable priced 10 bit, but they dont ship till summer 2003.
www.bluefish444.net
www.digitalvoodoo.net
10 bit works just fine with final cut pro. You just need to use the card's codec to utilize it's 10 bit ability.
>>Secondly, let's count together:
I guess I should have said under 40k, not 50k, my bad. Still beats the pants off anything pricewise on the windows side.
>>1. Media 100 844/Xi
I forgot about this one, it just came out a week ago. The thing is Media 100 says on their own site that it's 25k price is barebones. A configured system starts at 40k according to their own press release:
"844/Xi will be available in December 2002 with prices starting at $24,995 for Media 100 software and hardware. Complete system configurations will start at about $40,000 and will be available exclusively through authorized 844/X value-added resellers."
2. DVS SD/HD Station
This only sells as a 50k framestore box or as an OEM card that is sold only in turnkey systems(HDBOXX = 50k, so the card is still pretty expensive).
3. DPS Hollywood (ancient history already)
Where have you been? DPS canned this product over a year and a half ago. The only HD product they sell now is the dpsRealityHD and it doesn't do 10 bit(no SD 10 bit products either). Anyways, DPS products are not really made for editing. They are really like a Accom DDR. I use to use the PAR and PVR products back in the mid 90's. They were great for video playback(no drop frames was awsome back then) but horrible for editing stuff. They have speed razor for it(sucks) and they also try to get you to use Digital Fusion which is a compositor, not an editor. Like putting a square peg in a round hole, you can do it but it takes alot of force.
>>Granted, some of them aren't available till December, some of them need some integration in an OEM solution and some of them are only available through E-Bay
Your funny. Point me to a HDStation, media 100 844x, etc.. on ebay, Ill go buy it myself for ebay prices. All of these products are under 6 months old. No sane person is going to be selling them on ebay unless they went belly up. Even if they did, they wouldn't part for them on ebay. I did try checking for the hollywood card but no luck on ebay.
>>Ah, not to mention that a turn-key BOXX starts at around $35k...
Nope, Boxx's own press releases on their site say it starts at $49,500.
Now, there is a company called Bluefish444 that is comming out with a line of HD/SD 10 bit cards for a very resonable price on windows. Bluefish444 is the windows side of Digital Voodoo cards. So all the windows users will get resonable priced 10 bit, but they dont ship till summer 2003.
www.bluefish444.net
www.digitalvoodoo.net
phatgroovn
11-18-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Felytendect
ILM uses after effects on macs for film work? I would think that they would mainly use either shake/combustion/flame/inferno/digital fusion or the like. Can you post a link to where you got this info? [/B]
They use both. The Rebel Mac Unit is Lucas's project to test the feasability of doing feature films with off-the-shelf stuff. I know they conributed a few shots to each of the last 2 star wars films. In addition, i believe they use Electric Image (and now Maya) on the Mac paired with AE to previz just about every shot.
(remember Alex Lindsay talking about this in several interviews, along with George's appearances at the MacWorld keynotes)
A friend of mine is a compositor out there, he said he uses both flame and inferno on a lot of shots, but mostly they use proprietary compositing software for the big stuff.
I also remember the commercial division using a system of combustions->FFI, where they'd do roto and grunt work in combustion and then go online when the client gets there to bust out the shots.
ILM uses after effects on macs for film work? I would think that they would mainly use either shake/combustion/flame/inferno/digital fusion or the like. Can you post a link to where you got this info? [/B]
They use both. The Rebel Mac Unit is Lucas's project to test the feasability of doing feature films with off-the-shelf stuff. I know they conributed a few shots to each of the last 2 star wars films. In addition, i believe they use Electric Image (and now Maya) on the Mac paired with AE to previz just about every shot.
(remember Alex Lindsay talking about this in several interviews, along with George's appearances at the MacWorld keynotes)
A friend of mine is a compositor out there, he said he uses both flame and inferno on a lot of shots, but mostly they use proprietary compositing software for the big stuff.
I also remember the commercial division using a system of combustions->FFI, where they'd do roto and grunt work in combustion and then go online when the client gets there to bust out the shots.
Amyd
11-18-2002, 09:21 PM
You need to pay more attention to what I wrote there:
"10 bit works just fine with final cut pro. You just need to use the card's codec to utilize it's 10 bit ability."
You always use the card's codec, as long as you work with its Quicktime files (or in some cases, like the Cinewave, with the None codec), however what you wanted to say is that you cannot use any native FCP effects/transitions, otherwise you truncate to 8 bit by default. Exactly my point.
"A configured {media100} system starts at 40k according to their own press release"
Indeed, however Media 100 has decided to let you use the kit as you see fit, so with a bit of creative configuring and a bit of smart dealing, you can put together a complete system for say $35k. Of course, a similar FCP system would probably go for around $18k-$20k if you go the Cinewave route (about the same RT functionality, but no 10 bit) or less for an AJA Kona solution (but at the expense of essential RT functionality). The difference isn't really earth-shattering, imho, considering the prospects for the Media 100 system...
"This only sells as a 50k framestore box or as an OEM card that is sold only in turnkey systems(HDBOXX = 50k, so the card is still pretty expensive)."
Hence the "some of them need some integration in an OEM solution" comment I made...
"Where have you been? DPS canned this product over a year and a half ago."
Which part of "(ancient history already)" you missed? :shrug:
"Anyways, DPS products are not really made for editing. They are really like a Accom DDR. I use to use the PAR and PVR products back in the mid 90's. They were great for video playback(no drop frames was awsome back then) but horrible for editing stuff. They have speed razor for it(sucks) and they also try to get you to use Digital Fusion which is a compositor, not an editor."
That is of course your very humble oppinion. Speed Razor was up till about 2 years ago one of the best editors on the market, once you spent 2 hours learning its workflow - very smart freeform timeline. In-sync decided to ignore its users ever since, and so they went away to the black place where bad companies go. Maybe they'll come back, but not with that Blade piece of **** they try to push now.
That being said, PVR worked just as dandy in Premiere (still does) and in Video Action (the precursor to Velocity - great editing software btw.). And DPS Hollywood + Speed Razor was a pretty decent editing solution, given it did 10 bit when most of the industry didn't even fathom the concept.
"Your funny. Point me to a HDStation, media 100 844x, etc.. on ebay, Ill go buy it myself for ebay prices. All of these products are under 6 months old. No sane person is going to be selling them on ebay unless they went belly up. Even if they did, they wouldn't part for them on ebay. I did try checking for the hollywood card but no luck on ebay. "
Aww, c'mon man, that was too easy. I even enumerated them in the same order as at the beginning of the post: 844/x ("some of them aren't available till December"), DVS ("some of them need some integration in an OEM solution") and Hollywood ("and some of them are only available through E-Bay"). Doooh! Of course I was talking about the DPS board, which actually crops up quite often there.
"Nope, Boxx's own press releases on their site say it starts at $49,500"
That's with 730 GB of storage included and some other stuff which you can convince them to not include, if you want to custom config (within limits of course). Trust me. :beer:
Bluefish444 on the other hand is a baloon of gas. If they'll ever ship their products, then I will list them amongst hardware that works. Until then, it's just another vapourware product from Digital Voodoo (masters in this field - see Iridium "We work in Photoshop to design hardware boards" HD).
Cheers,
Andrei
"10 bit works just fine with final cut pro. You just need to use the card's codec to utilize it's 10 bit ability."
You always use the card's codec, as long as you work with its Quicktime files (or in some cases, like the Cinewave, with the None codec), however what you wanted to say is that you cannot use any native FCP effects/transitions, otherwise you truncate to 8 bit by default. Exactly my point.
"A configured {media100} system starts at 40k according to their own press release"
Indeed, however Media 100 has decided to let you use the kit as you see fit, so with a bit of creative configuring and a bit of smart dealing, you can put together a complete system for say $35k. Of course, a similar FCP system would probably go for around $18k-$20k if you go the Cinewave route (about the same RT functionality, but no 10 bit) or less for an AJA Kona solution (but at the expense of essential RT functionality). The difference isn't really earth-shattering, imho, considering the prospects for the Media 100 system...
"This only sells as a 50k framestore box or as an OEM card that is sold only in turnkey systems(HDBOXX = 50k, so the card is still pretty expensive)."
Hence the "some of them need some integration in an OEM solution" comment I made...
"Where have you been? DPS canned this product over a year and a half ago."
Which part of "(ancient history already)" you missed? :shrug:
"Anyways, DPS products are not really made for editing. They are really like a Accom DDR. I use to use the PAR and PVR products back in the mid 90's. They were great for video playback(no drop frames was awsome back then) but horrible for editing stuff. They have speed razor for it(sucks) and they also try to get you to use Digital Fusion which is a compositor, not an editor."
That is of course your very humble oppinion. Speed Razor was up till about 2 years ago one of the best editors on the market, once you spent 2 hours learning its workflow - very smart freeform timeline. In-sync decided to ignore its users ever since, and so they went away to the black place where bad companies go. Maybe they'll come back, but not with that Blade piece of **** they try to push now.
That being said, PVR worked just as dandy in Premiere (still does) and in Video Action (the precursor to Velocity - great editing software btw.). And DPS Hollywood + Speed Razor was a pretty decent editing solution, given it did 10 bit when most of the industry didn't even fathom the concept.
"Your funny. Point me to a HDStation, media 100 844x, etc.. on ebay, Ill go buy it myself for ebay prices. All of these products are under 6 months old. No sane person is going to be selling them on ebay unless they went belly up. Even if they did, they wouldn't part for them on ebay. I did try checking for the hollywood card but no luck on ebay. "
Aww, c'mon man, that was too easy. I even enumerated them in the same order as at the beginning of the post: 844/x ("some of them aren't available till December"), DVS ("some of them need some integration in an OEM solution") and Hollywood ("and some of them are only available through E-Bay"). Doooh! Of course I was talking about the DPS board, which actually crops up quite often there.
"Nope, Boxx's own press releases on their site say it starts at $49,500"
That's with 730 GB of storage included and some other stuff which you can convince them to not include, if you want to custom config (within limits of course). Trust me. :beer:
Bluefish444 on the other hand is a baloon of gas. If they'll ever ship their products, then I will list them amongst hardware that works. Until then, it's just another vapourware product from Digital Voodoo (masters in this field - see Iridium "We work in Photoshop to design hardware boards" HD).
Cheers,
Andrei
beaker
11-18-2002, 10:01 PM
>>ILM uses after effects on macs for film work? I would think that they would mainly use either shake/combustion/flame/inferno/digital fusion or the like. Can you post a link to where you got this info?
They have been using them for many years. Two of the visual fx supervisors there: John Knoll(he and his brother wrote photoshop and he also writes many afterfx plugins: unmult, knoll lenseflare, etc..) and Scott Sqires(creator of Commotion). John Knoll formed what is called the Rebel Unit at ILM, which uses all macs with afterfx, electric image and lightwave.
Alex Lindsey(www.dvgarage.com). talks about using afterfx and electric image on EP1 alot: http://www.dvgarage.com/house/who/alex/alex.php
Todd Vaziri: An EP2 artist that uses afterfx and commotion: http://home.earthlink.net/~tvaziri/
Mike Jackson: EP2 and Planet of the Apes artist that uses afterfx and Lightwave(formed his own company now http://www.stregaimaging.com/ )
Bunch of guys that worked on the rebel unit on EP1 left ILM to form a company called the Orphanage(www.theorphanage.com)
In EP1 the rebel unit did most of the end sequence with the fighter ships attacking the federation droid controll ships. Also the chrome ship that they travel around in. In EP2 they did alot of the R2D2 sequences: http://mag.awn.com/index.php3?ltype=pageone&article_no=1416
Just search for "ILM Rebel unit" on google. Hundreds of articles will pop up.
Many of these guys have given talks at siggraph and other meetings talking about this stuff.
They have been using them for many years. Two of the visual fx supervisors there: John Knoll(he and his brother wrote photoshop and he also writes many afterfx plugins: unmult, knoll lenseflare, etc..) and Scott Sqires(creator of Commotion). John Knoll formed what is called the Rebel Unit at ILM, which uses all macs with afterfx, electric image and lightwave.
Alex Lindsey(www.dvgarage.com). talks about using afterfx and electric image on EP1 alot: http://www.dvgarage.com/house/who/alex/alex.php
Todd Vaziri: An EP2 artist that uses afterfx and commotion: http://home.earthlink.net/~tvaziri/
Mike Jackson: EP2 and Planet of the Apes artist that uses afterfx and Lightwave(formed his own company now http://www.stregaimaging.com/ )
Bunch of guys that worked on the rebel unit on EP1 left ILM to form a company called the Orphanage(www.theorphanage.com)
In EP1 the rebel unit did most of the end sequence with the fighter ships attacking the federation droid controll ships. Also the chrome ship that they travel around in. In EP2 they did alot of the R2D2 sequences: http://mag.awn.com/index.php3?ltype=pageone&article_no=1416
Just search for "ILM Rebel unit" on google. Hundreds of articles will pop up.
Many of these guys have given talks at siggraph and other meetings talking about this stuff.
beaker
11-18-2002, 10:14 PM
--Amyd
Woops, I took many of your answers before as meaning something different.
Oh well. Shit happends.
Woops, I took many of your answers before as meaning something different.
Oh well. Shit happends.
Amyd
11-18-2002, 10:16 PM
Must've been my English. Ah well, sorry for not being clearer.
Cheers,
Andrei
Cheers,
Andrei
arvid
11-19-2002, 09:44 AM
AfterFX is a really crappy software, performace-wise, it has nothing on Shake or digital fusion. I wish they'd rewrite the damn thing cus I need it!! :p It isn't even multithreaded, some plugins will use 100% on a dual CPU machine, but AfterFX itself only uses 50%, ie only 1 cpu. However it's possible to to launch a second instance of AfterFX and assign each CPU to each instance of AfterFX so that it can run a multi-machine rendering, that doubles the speed of any render, but I mostly need it while previewing and there it's no good :annoyed:
I'm hoping for an "AfterFX: Next generation" to arrive :p
I'm hoping for an "AfterFX: Next generation" to arrive :p
Amyd
11-19-2002, 09:49 AM
According to a recent ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/aftereffects6.html) scoop that had to be taken down at the request of Adobe, After Effects 6 will indeed be a NextGen type of update, but it won't hit the streets until late next year (autumn 2003).
Cheers,
Andrei
Cheers,
Andrei
arvid
11-19-2002, 10:10 AM
aah. gives me a bit of hope! Too bad the article was removed ;) The "3D" in 5.x was such a hack, they need to do all that properly, as well as rewriting all the filters and integrating a useful flowchart view in which you can edit the noodles, and get rid of the floating-window-style interface!
just my 0.02€ :)
just my 0.02€ :)
red_oddity
11-19-2002, 11:55 AM
Not to mention AFXs hopeless Comp windows (you can't even navigate your damn work environment...in order to edit masks sometimes you have to scale the damn thing 2.5%, then try to be acurate)...Sorry, but AFX is a complete friggin' laugh, it is being sold as a composite package, but it really is a heap of wanna be shite.)
AFX:
No navigatable work environment.
No Channel editor (what is this velocity crap?)
Can't scale your velocity detail area (yeah you can scale your window to 1900x1600, but the line remains the same size, lying there on the bottom of your screen)
Pathetic (read no) multitasking
Completely useless and buggy Rasterize functions
Slow ass window redraws (even on GF4 Ti 4600 on a XP1900+)
The 3D...well...what 3D? I think these guys have lived in a cave for the last 10 years when it comes to 3D tools.
No color correctors
No proper tracking and compositing tools
Etc...Etc
Etc...Etc...Etc..
For that money you spend on AFX and some descent color correctors (CS color corrector or LookSuite) you can buy 2 Combustion seats.
Just my wasted 2 euro cents
AFX:
No navigatable work environment.
No Channel editor (what is this velocity crap?)
Can't scale your velocity detail area (yeah you can scale your window to 1900x1600, but the line remains the same size, lying there on the bottom of your screen)
Pathetic (read no) multitasking
Completely useless and buggy Rasterize functions
Slow ass window redraws (even on GF4 Ti 4600 on a XP1900+)
The 3D...well...what 3D? I think these guys have lived in a cave for the last 10 years when it comes to 3D tools.
No color correctors
No proper tracking and compositing tools
Etc...Etc
Etc...Etc...Etc..
For that money you spend on AFX and some descent color correctors (CS color corrector or LookSuite) you can buy 2 Combustion seats.
Just my wasted 2 euro cents
arvid
11-19-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by red_oddity
Not to mention AFXs hopeless Comp windows (you can't even navigate your damn work environment...in order to edit masks sometimes you have to scale the damn thing 2.5%, then try to be acurate)...Sorry, but AFX is a complete friggin' laugh, it is being sold as a composite package, but it really is a heap of wanna be shite.)
AFX:
No navigatable work environment.
No Channel editor (what is this velocity crap?)
Can't scale your velocity detail area (yeah you can scale your window to 1900x1600, but the line remains the same size, lying there on the bottom of your screen)
Pathetic (read no) multitasking
Completely useless and buggy Rasterize functions
Slow ass window redraws (even on GF4 Ti 4600 on a XP1900+)
The 3D...well...what 3D? I think these guys have lived in a cave for the last 10 years when it comes to 3D tools.
No color correctors
No proper tracking and compositing tools
Etc...Etc
Etc...Etc...Etc..
For that money you spend on AFX and some descent color correctors (CS color corrector or LookSuite) you can buy 2 Combustion seats.
Just my wasted 2 euro cents
I agree on all of the above!! It's a heap of 10 year old crap, with some plugins stacked on top.
However, it does deliver due to its fast (read: timesaving) timeline and keyframes. And I would like to add something to
your list: NO CURVE EDITOR!!! It's a freakin scandal for fux sake! Those accelerationcurves are as useless as the flowchart view! Furthermore, there's no commandline control at all, so you can't batchrenderer without importing all your projects into a new projects and mess around, and forget last minute changes there! And humm.. the keyer sucks too ehehh
afterfx.. the app I hate but use every day, it's still the best tool for motiondesign-type work.. but i never use it for compositing these days, it lacks.. everything!
Not to mention AFXs hopeless Comp windows (you can't even navigate your damn work environment...in order to edit masks sometimes you have to scale the damn thing 2.5%, then try to be acurate)...Sorry, but AFX is a complete friggin' laugh, it is being sold as a composite package, but it really is a heap of wanna be shite.)
AFX:
No navigatable work environment.
No Channel editor (what is this velocity crap?)
Can't scale your velocity detail area (yeah you can scale your window to 1900x1600, but the line remains the same size, lying there on the bottom of your screen)
Pathetic (read no) multitasking
Completely useless and buggy Rasterize functions
Slow ass window redraws (even on GF4 Ti 4600 on a XP1900+)
The 3D...well...what 3D? I think these guys have lived in a cave for the last 10 years when it comes to 3D tools.
No color correctors
No proper tracking and compositing tools
Etc...Etc
Etc...Etc...Etc..
For that money you spend on AFX and some descent color correctors (CS color corrector or LookSuite) you can buy 2 Combustion seats.
Just my wasted 2 euro cents
I agree on all of the above!! It's a heap of 10 year old crap, with some plugins stacked on top.
However, it does deliver due to its fast (read: timesaving) timeline and keyframes. And I would like to add something to
your list: NO CURVE EDITOR!!! It's a freakin scandal for fux sake! Those accelerationcurves are as useless as the flowchart view! Furthermore, there's no commandline control at all, so you can't batchrenderer without importing all your projects into a new projects and mess around, and forget last minute changes there! And humm.. the keyer sucks too ehehh
afterfx.. the app I hate but use every day, it's still the best tool for motiondesign-type work.. but i never use it for compositing these days, it lacks.. everything!
red_oddity
11-19-2002, 03:27 PM
The best way to see these guys have no idea what animation really is about , is the fact that 3 versions further, they still have ease-in and ease-out mixed up....
:scream: :scream: :scream: AMATURES:scream: :scream: :scream:
:scream: :scream: :scream: AMATURES:scream: :scream: :scream:
Khepri
11-19-2002, 05:35 PM
AE aint the fastest thing around... but it can handle alot if you use it correctly.
lucky thing its the artist that controls the app and not the app that controls the artist ey?
:bounce:
lucky thing its the artist that controls the app and not the app that controls the artist ey?
:bounce:
phatgroovn
11-19-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Khepri
lucky thing its the artist that controls the app and not the app that controls the artist ey?
:bounce:
Very true, the artist ultimately dictates output, not the app...BUUUUUTTTTT.....
The better the tool, generally the more you can unleash creativity.
AE is a great tool for a lot of things, but it's also a good example of the "you get what you pay for" rule when speaking of it as a compositor. My biggest gripe here is that it relies on 3rd parties to achieve core functionality of a compositor, such as a decent keyer. Plug-Ins should be for add on features, not features core to the product's claimed ability.
Long live the discreet keyer.:buttrock:
lucky thing its the artist that controls the app and not the app that controls the artist ey?
:bounce:
Very true, the artist ultimately dictates output, not the app...BUUUUUTTTTT.....
The better the tool, generally the more you can unleash creativity.
AE is a great tool for a lot of things, but it's also a good example of the "you get what you pay for" rule when speaking of it as a compositor. My biggest gripe here is that it relies on 3rd parties to achieve core functionality of a compositor, such as a decent keyer. Plug-Ins should be for add on features, not features core to the product's claimed ability.
Long live the discreet keyer.:buttrock:
Per-Anders
11-19-2002, 07:01 PM
well when it comes down to it... what we pay is actually quite a lot, especially if you consider how large a user base this product has... adobe can afford to put in some R&D into the program. i'd like to see node based expressions and effect control, more speed, the interface redesigned to be more streamlined... i mean, it's got to have one of the worst interfaces going in terms of clutter, palletes that get in each others ways, more speed. better inbuilt path control tools for use with the masks, more speed, better handles on everything (including the ability to lock certain handles so you don't accidentaly deselct or select them a an inopportune moment... all too easily done on a high res screen), more speed, full sound scrubbing, more speed, aligning in 3d space and lastly one that i've not mentioned before but i think is very important and that is more speed.
red_oddity
11-20-2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by mdme_sadie
well when it comes down to it... what we pay is actually quite a lot, especially if you consider how large a user base this product has...
Very true, it has had no competitors on the mid-range composite market, until a few months ago when Combustion went out the door for less than 1600 bucks :applause: , so i think they have more or less been ripping of customers (they never had decent support, no regular updates, and the updates that came out cost a fortune. And in order to get anything professional done within a professional time span, you had to shelve out a lot of cash for some decent keyers and color corrector (or other usefull features))
Anyway...wasn't this thread about how fast the new Intel processors where compared to the new Mac?:p
well when it comes down to it... what we pay is actually quite a lot, especially if you consider how large a user base this product has...
Very true, it has had no competitors on the mid-range composite market, until a few months ago when Combustion went out the door for less than 1600 bucks :applause: , so i think they have more or less been ripping of customers (they never had decent support, no regular updates, and the updates that came out cost a fortune. And in order to get anything professional done within a professional time span, you had to shelve out a lot of cash for some decent keyers and color corrector (or other usefull features))
Anyway...wasn't this thread about how fast the new Intel processors where compared to the new Mac?:p
arvid
11-20-2002, 09:04 AM
It was, but then there was nothing left to discuss about it :p just hard cold facts :D
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