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Mike RB
11-16-2002, 01:16 AM
Post your examples here......

Endomorphs:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/cvreyes.gif

Rigging and standin geometry:
super fast layout playback, renders highrez
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/standin.jpg

Rigging, just bones and IK, nothing fancy here.....
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/workout2.gif

Animation, knocked this out in 5-10mins with Keytrak (and im no animator)
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/turn2.gif

proton
11-16-2002, 01:41 AM
You rock! this stuff is sooooo good!

I'll try and post something soon! Great Thread idea.:bounce:

Mike RB
11-16-2002, 04:05 AM
another example of a LW rig:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/demin.gif

Simple muscle bone setup:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/arm.gif

Complex muscle experiment:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/demonM2.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/demonM2.gif

Mangled Poly
11-16-2002, 04:13 AM
Wow i have yet to learn ik but this is simply amazing stuff nice work!
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
5 bouncy things for you!

Cman
11-16-2002, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Mike RB
... (and im no animator)


Well that's a bunch of bull! :D

smfjersey
11-16-2002, 06:12 AM
Hey Mike RB,
Is this messiah? Without getting into a 200$ tutorial, can you give us a bit of insight to your rigging technique.
I'd appreciate it if you have the time.
Thx

Merlin
11-16-2002, 06:42 AM
... wow... any info you'd like to share on how you accomplished those rigs would be greatly appreciated, that is some impressive stuff. The Muscle deformation is just amazing.... just wow. that's all I'm saying, wow wow wow wow wow, you rock :beer:

Merlin

JohnD
11-16-2002, 06:49 AM
Now this is a great thread. Awesome work Mike. Especially love the Invid trooper....( That is an Invid machine right? Can't remember. Been a long time since I have watched Robotech :rolleyes:

Willax
11-16-2002, 06:55 AM
Awesome stuff there Mike. It's stuff like that that encourages us noob's to keep plugging away. Your work is amazing and I hope to some day achieve that level of proficiency. Keep posting to inspire us :applause: Willax

takkun
11-16-2002, 07:06 AM
That complex muscle rig is amazing! Great work, Mike!!!

Kaiser_Sose
11-16-2002, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Cman
Well that's a bunch of bull! :D

You can say that again

Wow i have yet to learn ik

Ya, but where

Mike RB
11-16-2002, 11:54 AM
Yes, its all just straight LW

Joril
11-16-2002, 01:16 PM
Makes me wonder.
Did you animate the muscle bones with followers?

Mike RB
11-16-2002, 02:11 PM
This is what I used:

http://forum.lwhub.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=327

Mike

Joril
11-16-2002, 02:48 PM
Thanks Mike! :beer:

Chewey
11-16-2002, 05:02 PM
I liked these the first time I viewed them, and
it's nice to see this compilation of Mike's cool stuff all in one handy thread.

Eugeny
11-16-2002, 05:12 PM
I think it's necessary to make this thread sticky - for all these newbes who think that LightWave not so good for character animation ...
Cool stuff Mike :thumbsup:
Hope i will post something too ...

smfjersey
11-16-2002, 05:25 PM
Thanks Mike! Thats damn good of ya. It's not often someone kicks down scenes like that.

SplineGod
11-16-2002, 08:01 PM
Great stuff Mike!
Heres a simple muscle test that I did.
Its a bit different the Mikes example.
This one uses no muscle bones, no endomorphs and no displacement maps. The muscles swell in particular places and you can see the striations appear on the shoulder. The bicep changes color slightly and specularity. ALL of this is controlled by one simple expression.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/armtest2.mov and armtest3. mov.

In the 2nd example you can better see the bicep and forearm muscles push against each other.

Heres an animation that I did for Dan Dare back in LW5.6
Its all hand keyed and setup with IK.
http://www.splinegod.com/foundation/dandare/ddare.mpg

Heres another animation that I did that was a test for a spiderman TV series. Its a combination of handkeying and procedural animaton done in LW 7. It uses IK and follower.
http://www.splinegod.com/spiderman.htm

Mangled Poly
11-17-2002, 04:19 AM
Very cool stuff to spline!!! more pls!

wgreenlee1
11-17-2002, 06:16 AM
Rigging is a artform all its own!
Very cool stuff!!

SplineGod
11-17-2002, 10:05 AM
Actually Rigging isnt that hard. Its about creating a digital "puppet" that can be easily posed and doesnt break between poses. Thats not that hard to do really. Its not about expressions and controlling fingers with sliders and lots of cool tricky doodads and whatnots. IF you keep things simple rather then complicated youll get around to animating faster and have a more stable setup. Heres and example:
Lots of people like to control the hands with sliders and expressions thinking its a cool way to do it. The problem is that to get the proper amount of control it ends up becoming complicated and unwieldy. You need a slider to control the hand globally, then you need a slider for each finger. But to use sliders you have to set up master channels that control each finger and sliders to control each master channel. Now you have a sliders that can open and close the hand and sliders to tweak each finger. The problem is still that sometimes you need individual control over each finger bone. You dont have that level of control and now it can become even more complicated. The solution for me has been to use selection sets. What are selection sets? Say you select all the bones in every finger in the hands, you go into the scene editor and create a favorite set called All fingers. You can now select all the fingers in that set at any time. If you rotate the pitch for one bone ALL the bones rotate additively. You can create selection sets for each finger too. The great thing is you can still animate each digit of each finger because there are no expressions used. This gives far greater control then using sliders and there is practically no setup time. I can be off and animating quite quickly this way. There is also a free plugin that allows you to have your selection sets up in a floating window.

Facial Deluxe
11-17-2002, 10:59 AM
Totaly agree with you Larry, although I'm not that good ...
Instead of selection set, I work with shematic view and multy select finger bones with middle mouse buttons.

SplineGod
11-17-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Facial Deluxe
Totaly agree with you Larry, although I'm not that good ...
Instead of selection set, I work with shematic view and multy select finger bones with middle mouse buttons.
Facial! Use selection sets. Much faster and easier. Plus use Lernies SelectionSetMC plugin. Your sets are there in a little window calling your name waiting for you to click on them. :)

toonshady
11-17-2002, 01:47 PM
You should upgrade to the latest lcore.dll maybe? It probably the lscript system that you have is older.

wgreenlee1
11-17-2002, 01:49 PM
Larry another way to do fingers is "Simple Orient Constraints"
Choosing the heading constrains the heading for all child bones with it activated.Or pitch or banking.
Just a thought.

Cman
11-17-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Facial Deluxe
Doesn't work for me
"Line 4 (script type master differs from architecture)"

What does it mean ?
Running 7.5

That usually means you are running it from the wrong LScript requester. For example, trying to run a Motion Script as an Image Filter Script.

Make sure you are using the Master Plugins LScript requester - it's an awesome script.
I really like the brother to SelectFavorites: SelectFavoritesbyItem.
With this script you can use a CustomObject! - pick that object and the fingers get selected, or whatever.
It can clutter things up sometimes, but I rather have the CustomObject than a bunch of windows.

Facial Deluxe
11-17-2002, 03:48 PM
Oooops Sorry, I'm an ass, should read you more carrefully Cman!
Thanx a bunch my friend:thumbsup:

Mike RB
11-17-2002, 04:21 PM
This is one of the reasons keytrak kicks butt. IT lets you have keyable sets with objects and bones in them... Pose sets if you will....

Mike

Chewey
11-17-2002, 07:06 PM
Here's a simple old test made when I first tried using mocap in Lightwave last year. Just a bit of fun mostly.

http://members.aol.com/mothra321/Clops_Mocap.avi

No texturing and it still requires some obvious tweaking (feet sliding, poking through the floor etc.)

Here's the character with some preliminary textures and fur.

Steve Warner
11-17-2002, 07:19 PM
Nice work Chewey! And Mike, you're a freaking genius! You guys are both an inspiration. :thumbsup:

Steve

Delucubus
11-17-2002, 11:24 PM
Mike, I have a question if you don't mind. How do you use the stand in model in layout? Do you have it in the same object as the high res? Is it parented to the bones the same as the high res model so when you move the stand in model the high res model is affected the same way?

I'm curious has to how you do that because i'm working on a project right now that using stand in models would have helped tremendously.

thanks,
Todd

SplineGod
11-17-2002, 11:56 PM
What I do for seamless characters is create a standin by creating a lower rez version by freezing it with a low or no subpatch level.
I then chop it up so that I have a torso, head, forearms, upperarms etc etc all in their own layers.
I bring that into layout and parent each piece to the corresponding bone. I also make a selection set out of all the pieces. I make that standin version invisible. When I need to check deformations I use the subpatch version. When I need to animate and get some speed I turn off all deformations (theres a button to do that), make the subpatch version invisible, make my standin version visible and start animating. It goes very quickly. Again when I need to check deformations I make the standin invisible, the subpatch version visible and turn deformations back on. I actually used lscript commander to create two buttons that do that for me.

Willax
11-18-2002, 12:05 AM
This isn't on topic exactly, but everytime I click on the link with movie files I get a page that says page not available, etc. I think all my browser settings are correct. Any suggestions for accessing these pages?

Mike RB
11-18-2002, 02:22 AM
my workflow is similar to larrys.... here is the specifics:

-I model + rig hirez
-I do a merge fixed on my hirez model to reduce points until the
shape is still recognizable but way way lighter. This keeps weightmaps intact

-At this point there are 2 options, if the character is really gooey like my demon guy I...
-Clone my directory structure so that I have 2 objects folders, one with the hirez, one with the reduced
-when its time to animate I point my content folders to the low rez ones
-when its time to really check deformations and crashing, and render I point it to the hirez one and reload the scene

-Option B, non gooey character, like my robotech soldier
-Save off a seperate object representing every bone, bicep,
lowerarm, hand....
-Load them all into layout along with my rigged hirez guy
-Parent them to the appropriate bone
-Hide my actual mesh (so it renders but istn drawn in layout)
-Deactivate all my low rez stuff (so its visible in layout but will never render)
-This method has the advantage of not haiving to much around swapping stuff to animate/render

Mike

Kaiser_Sose
11-18-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
What I do for seamless characters is create a standin by creating a lower rez version by freezing it with a low or no subpatch level.
I then chop it up so that I have a torso, head, forearms, upperarms etc etc all in their own layers.
I bring that into layout and parent each piece to the corresponding bone. I also make a selection set out of all the pieces. I make that standin version invisible. When I need to check deformations I use the subpatch version. When I need to animate and get some speed I turn off all deformations (theres a button to do that), make the subpatch version invisible, make my standin version visible and start animating. It goes very quickly. Again when I need to check deformations I make the standin invisible, the subpatch version visible and turn deformations back on. I actually used lscript commander to create two buttons that do that for me.



Is this something you teach in your course

SplineGod
11-18-2002, 03:04 PM
I sure do, thats a big part of rigging. :)

KOryH
11-18-2002, 08:08 PM
Hey Mike the old decimate crunches polys and keeps the maps. that is what I use. I also have the tootsie roll character as well.
Although I never tried the parent segment to bone method before. I'm sure this really speeds things up.
Thanks for all the cool tips so far.

Check out my new demo reel.
It's all lightwave. with plenty of character animation.

http://korysdiner.homestead.com/files/BIG_PIC/KHI_2k2_sm.avi

Julez4001
11-19-2002, 01:19 PM
Thanks for opening this thread, MIke
Truly a scholar and a gentlemen.

I post some of my LW-only stuff too.

"How do you make animatable Gif"
AE a seq of files or captures of printscreens using "snapshot"

Great Tip Splinegod.

**TIP: Don't really concentrate on making a eliquent Low res
Just decimate or QEMLOSS it to death. Make it ube rlight and get all of your Key poses and Timing down.

Then Replace with Hi res and check deformations
Go back to Low res (Hell, make object invisible and deformation off) and animate the skeleton. Using expression so foot won't slide the floor helps keep your mind away from "is my foot going through the ground".

Work the aniamtion like clay (or modeling course some ppl model detail at the beginning)
Rough..then detaio it out.

Mike RB
11-19-2002, 02:16 PM
export the avi out of premiere or whatever as a animated gif at 10fps.

Then load it into imageready and change the colors to 32 and lossy compression to 20 or 25. That gets the file size down pretty well for me.

Mike.

Eugeny
11-19-2002, 03:01 PM
This is some scenes (http://lobster.ls.huji.ac.il/~eugeny/CGTalk_junk/Kile_01.mpg) (please right click and download ) from " Bugvaders " (http://www.adventure-publishing.com/projects.html) - i made all characters set - up, bike set - up, all animation's, all lighting and environment set up as well as some model tweeking ( Kyle bike jacket was remodeled by me , Kyle arms and bike in some areas )...
... and grass :) - made by me with Susquatch . All other models and texturing made by peoples of Adventure - Publishing ( i joined to project on pretty early stages :( )

Julez4001
11-19-2002, 04:38 PM
How is KeyTrak.
What do you like about so much, Mike!

Mike RB
11-19-2002, 06:29 PM
Its a timeline dope sheet that allows keying and manipulation of whole character poses (nulls and bones). 'nuff said

KOryH
11-19-2002, 06:37 PM
the ability to save an entire POSE is just great. Hands and bodies!
I love it. Where did it go?

Mike RB
11-19-2002, 07:48 PM
??? here as always: http://www.spatial-design.com

Mike

SplineGod
11-19-2002, 09:39 PM
Whywould you need an expression to keep feet from sliding?Ive never had to do that. Also using expressions to keep feet from moving thru the ground is a bit limiting when its easy to select the y values for the feet in the graph editor and set their values to ground level. This is much more flexible. Im finding more and more the use of expressions in character setups to be limiting and time consuming except in certain circumstances.
As I also mentioned, Lscript commander is great for creating buttons to swap Hi and Lo poly standins , change their visibility and turn all deformations on and off.

Julez4001
11-19-2002, 11:22 PM
Its never an always situation.
But its nice to have it.

Kaiser_Sose
11-20-2002, 07:33 AM
Mike,

Can people post their favorite LW scripts that aid in rigging and animation in this thread

Mike RB
11-20-2002, 04:27 PM
Of course. I don't use any for rigging.

SplineGod
11-20-2002, 05:22 PM
I agree with Mike, I dont really either except that Im starting to use lscript commander to sort of create checklist buttons.
For example, When I load in a character I usually do the following:
1. Convert skelegons into bones
2. Set bone falloff to ^128
3. Set Subpatch order to last
4. Set subpatch level
These steps can be turned into a button with Lscript commander so that all you have to do is load a character in and hit a button to have it ready to test.

webfox
11-20-2002, 08:24 PM
A little facial animation and lip synch...

Nearly Headless Nick's party invite (http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cfox3d/animation/smallparty.html)

This was done with LW 6 and messiah. I use LW 7.5 now and am looking forward to messiah studio as I prefer their implementation of expressions, though I can get by with LW's own system as well.

The setup is a combination of morphs and muscle bones.

Julez4001
11-20-2002, 08:29 PM
http://www.flarenova.com/billrun.jpg

I am setting the feet using Simple Constraints plugin and Simple Orientation to attach feet to the IK Null. It stops the feet from going under 0,0.



Just an idea.

proton
11-20-2002, 08:31 PM
Julez.......excellent work!

[msf]
11-21-2002, 03:22 PM
Being I cant afford Larry's courses could anyone point me towards some good books on character rigging? I know there is lots of info on the net but I like to have a hardbound book to look at while I am chilling in my recliner. OOOOOOoooooooooo :)

SplineGod
11-21-2002, 08:46 PM
Hey Julez,
Cool character, Whats it for?

Msf,
How do you know if you cant afford them?
Also, Resurrection is one S and two Rs. :)

Julez4001
11-21-2002, 11:39 PM
Why my tagline of course...

Just a proof of concept, really and something i want to prove that i can do (5 minute short) in my freetime before i hit 30.

I get to play around and see what works (maya messiah or lw) for cloth deformation and i am exploring all options. Nothing a hundred proff. I want fast, reliable and easy secondary motions. I heard 3dsmax has a too for that thing for 3 years but i can't go that direction.

SplineGod
11-21-2002, 11:47 PM
I havent been impressed too much so far with a lot of examples of cloth dynamics or even muscle/skin deformation in a many movies that tout it. Shrek looks like they used something like bone driven morphs to get cloth to wrinkle in various postions. I didnt really see what looked like muscle or skin animation either or in final fantasy. The only movies that really impressed me in that regard was Dinosaur and Reign of Fire...both of which used the same technology. Walking with dinosaurs had good 2ndary skin movement but seemed to have been done with weight maps and bones...something Ive been able to do in Lightwave. When Ive used Motion Designer its been mainly to do those parts of the cloth that arent directly attached to the character. I dont bother for tighter clothing.

[msf]
11-22-2002, 07:07 AM
Are they not the same ones that are 300 a month as listed on FXacademy? Or can you get just the DVDs and work at your own pace? Dont mean to turn this into a thread about the course but I am confused. :)

SplineGod
11-22-2002, 08:31 AM
Its the same course yes. The course already is set up to work at your own pace. The course comes with 3 months of support so you can ask questions as you go and have your work critiqued as you go. All Im saying is that not everyone can afford to pay it all up front or $300 a month. If thats the case email me and I can see what can be worked out. :)

toonshady
11-23-2002, 02:40 AM
While it seems nice to have feet not going below 0 in y, but what happens when you need to have your character walk down the stairs or just jump down. I would assume that would just break the floor rig.

SplineGod
11-23-2002, 06:08 AM
Thats why I dont like setting automatic constraints on characters because its very limiting. Adding additional controls to override them takes more time. Its easier IMO to just put the foot where you want it and rely on IK and the graph editor to keep them where you want them.

Julez4001
11-23-2002, 06:08 PM
The bone are placed at 0,0
The simple constraint attach the foot to the IK null.
If it moves pass the 0, it will.
I just like doing squats with IK. and I just like to know where to put the floor at.

When i do it in messiah. I use FK to IK slider (real simple to setup) to shut off expressions that limit me. I don't use expressions that much in lw as once I get pass five expression I start getting loss on what is effecting what.


Lw needs a separate expression panel and/or flowchart.

SplineGod
11-23-2002, 11:50 PM
The IK FK slider thing was cool in messiah but there are similar things you can do to blend between an expression and FK in Lightwave. I have found that as time goes on and I do more and more rigs that I want to spend less time rigging and more time animating. For me I can see the floor by putting in a ground object or standin objects. I will go thru and block or rough out my animation and dont care too much if the feet dip thru the floor at that point in time. If the floor or ground change drastically its a pain for me to constantly override my expression to keep the feet at floor or ground level. If I have a large section where the ground is the same level Ill simply grab the Y values for the feet IK goals and set them to the same value. For me thats a lot faster and more flexible then setting up expressions. I find that for me, avoiding too many expression based controls or automated functions is better...it drops my setup time and allows me to get to the actual animating part. :)
I also had the same problem in Messiah: Keeping track of which expressions were controlling what, what order to place them in because sometimes I would throw in an expression that would break something else. I would have drag and drop it up and down the list until it worked or redo it. I also had problems sometimes determining if I needed to use an expression before, during or after IK. Some expressions in Messiah are pretty straightforward but many were not. Some things IMO sound great in theory because in our imaginations everything works. In practice they can become a huge pain. Also when rigging there is a difference between rigging for me and rigging for someone else. I REALLY try and keep is simple when rigging for others. :)

Kaiser_Sose
11-24-2002, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I REALLY try and keep is simple when rigging for others. :)

You make everything sound so simple :)

SplineGod
11-24-2002, 08:42 AM
It is simple if you look at rigging the right way. Its not about IK, expressions or slick setups. Its about: What does the rig have to be able to do? Usually its a few things:
1. The Rig should be very poseable but not break between poses.
2. When a rig is put into a pose , moving some other part of the rig should not break the pose in another part of the rig.

These two rules can be broken down a bit more but thats it really in a nut shell. :)

lildragon
11-27-2002, 10:01 AM
Very interesting, nice thread :thumbsup:

salud

Meshbuilder
11-27-2002, 11:05 AM
Hi.. I made a litle walk animation with the bolo character from Lukasz Pazeras´s Auto Character Setup 3..
Just for fun..
I used his rigg but changed the arm to FK..
Set driven key was used for his left arm so I only needed to animate the right one..
Hope you like it..

The clip is 1.1 MB and you need QT6 to see it..

http://www.vinyamar.com/~darkeden/meshbuilder/anima/bolo1.mov

Kaiser_Sose
11-27-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Meshbuilder
Hi.. I made a litle walk animation with the bolo character from Lukasz Pazeras´s Auto Character Setup 3..
Just for fun..
I used his rigg but changed the arm to FK..
Set driven key was used for his left arm so I only needed to animate the right one..
Hope you like it..

The clip is 1.1 MB and you need QT6 to see it..

http://www.vinyamar.com/~darkeden/meshbuilder/anima/bolo1.mov

Looks good

Stupid question but how do you use pre made rigs on other characters

Meshbuilder
11-27-2002, 03:09 PM
"Stupid question but how do you use pre made rigs on other characters"

Hmm I don't know really... I think it's pretty hard to reuse your riggs in Lightwave.. And in other programs I worked with too..
With Pazeras's auto character script you can do that.. But I don't like his IK setup for the arms..

I think it would be cool if Newtek did something about this in the next vesion of Lightwave.. Now it's real easy to remodel you skelegons in modeler but it's mutch more difficult to change your bones in Layout after you have setup IK, expression and all that..

KOryH
11-27-2002, 04:55 PM
With his script it's pretty easy.
you can modify the skeleton in modeler to fit your own character then run the sript in layout. just swap his mesh for yours.
it's as easy as Thanksgiving Pumkin pie!

He has some tips for this on his website by the way.

SplineGod
11-27-2002, 06:19 PM
Animation really happens in two parts:
Getting the physics correct - weight, balance etc
Getting the Art correct - personality, appeal etc.
Making a walk cycle and using expressions/motion modifiers to automate parts of it MAY help get the physics part done but wont make it look good artistically. Thats why few animators like rigs that autocenter themselves and so on.
You an easily reuse bones from one character to another in lightwave even if those bones have motion and IK on them. Lots of people say you cant but its simply not true. There are ways to do it without using that auto character setup script. There are many different ways to rig. :)
I also think that using IK on the upper body of a character is a bad idea unless the characters hands need to stick to something.

KOryH
11-27-2002, 09:00 PM
Yes, there are many ways to do it with out the script. You have mentioned a couple of good ways further back in this tread.
But what if you are lazy? or really have no desire what so ever to get good at rigging, but want to be a good animator. or do you have to be a good modeler and rigger before you can graduate to animation?

SplineGod
11-27-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by KOryH
Yes, there are many ways to do it with out the script. You have mentioned a couple of good ways further back in this tread.
But what if you are lazy? or really have no desire what so ever to get good at rigging, but want to be a good animator. or do you have to be a good modeler and rigger before you can graduate to animation?
Good point. Lots of studios work that way. You have animators who cant rig or model and vice versa. I thinking knowing how to model and rig can help you become more well rounded and may help but not necessarily. If you dont rig but want to learn animation then I would suggest hooking up with someone who can rig well or buying a good rig somewhere to play with. If you are trying to learn to rig PROPERLY I would suggest finding someone who can animate to test your rigs on. ANY package is a good animation package if you have a good rig to start with. :)

Meshbuilder
11-27-2002, 11:25 PM
SplineGod >"You an easily reuse bones from one character to another in lightwave even if those bones have motion and IK on them. Lots of people say you cant but its simply not true. There are ways to do it without using that auto character setup script."

Ok say that we have one little dwarf running.. Then we want to take his bones/animation and use it on another character, say a big orc..
How do I do that "easily"???

abercrombiestud
11-28-2002, 05:10 PM
wow!!! that stuff is awsome only if i knew how to do that but i yet dont. that is really cool

Eugeny
11-28-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Meshbuilder
SplineGod >"You an easily reuse bones from one character to another in lightwave even if those bones have motion and IK on them. Lots of people say you cant but its simply not true. There are ways to do it without using that auto character setup script."

Ok say that we have one little dwarf running.. Then we want to take his bones/animation and use it on another character, say a big orc..
How do I do that "easily"???

It's pretty easy :
1. Make sure u have on most bones rotation keys ( if u use FK)
2. If u have some position keys on pelvis or some root bone leave it...
3. Resize your bones using Rest Length - not Scale or Stretch!
4. After resizing keep an eye on numeric area of interface (with Rest Length tool still selected) u mast see the Length of corrent bone, now copy this and paste to child bone on Z position.
5. Proceed to another bone and make the same adjustment.
6. In cases there u need to rotate bone (with child) but u have already assigned rotation keys - open Graph editor and select keys for axis u need to rotate, then move these keys up or down until u get correct bone rotation.
7. Same thing with root bone (if ) that have position keys - move group of keys instead of bone ...

This technique was used heavy with Mocap data before LW 7.5 BVH support and before FilmBox Keydara (hope i write name correctly).
Here is (http://www.geocities.com/rgkovach/mocap_tut.htm) some tutorial of using LW with mocap data - it's explain the same technique (for LW 6 - but can be done with 7.x as well)

Meshbuilder
11-28-2002, 06:47 PM
Cool.. It wasn´t that hard.. hihi :)

http://www.vinyamar.com/~darkeden/meshbuilder/anima/bolougly.mov

SplineGod
11-28-2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Meshbuilder
SplineGod >"You an easily reuse bones from one character to another in lightwave even if those bones have motion and IK on them. Lots of people say you cant but its simply not true. There are ways to do it without using that auto character setup script."

Ok say that we have one little dwarf running.. Then we want to take his bones/animation and use it on another character, say a big orc..
How do I do that "easily"???
I could do it faster then redoing it completely from scratch. I also probably wouldnt do that with this situation you described. The reason is that how a dwarf would be animated would depends on his size, what he was wearing, how heavy he was etc etc.
How that dwarf would move would be very different then how an orc would move. I would have to determine just how different the two characters would be and if it would be worth it to reuse bones and motions on such different characters.

Meshbuilder
11-28-2002, 09:31 PM
SplineGod > Yes you are absolutely right about that.. It was a bad example from me..
Anyway.. Can I reuse motionmixerclips from one character and add them to another?.. IF they have the same skelegon/bone structure??

SplineGod
11-29-2002, 03:54 AM
You are supposed to be able to share animations that way with motion mixer. Ive never done it for the same reason I described above. Ive worked on Max Steel and another similar all CGI show called Dan Dare and we never reused animations between characters simply because they wouldnt look right. I think doing things that way would work better for video game characters then for movies or TV.

hermonir
12-13-2002, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Eugeny
This is some scenes (http://lobster.ls.huji.ac.il/~eugeny/CGTalk_junk/Kile_01.mpg) (please right click and download ) from " Bugvaders " (http://www.adventure-publishing.com/projects.html) - i made all characters set - up, bike set - up, all animation's, all lighting and environment set up as well as some model tweeking ( Kyle bike jacket was remodeled by me , Kyle arms and bike in some areas )...
... and grass :) - made by me with Susquatch . All other models and texturing made by peoples of Adventure - Publishing ( i joined to project on pretty early stages :( )

Hello Everyone.

I'm Nir Hermoni. I worked on the "bugvaders" project from it's very early stages, before Eugeny came on board.

I'd like to correct some problems in the above statements.
Eugeny did not create all the animations for this scene.
He did not do any of the rigs for the bugs.
I don't know what he means by "environment set-up", but it does not include modeling and textures.

This is not the first time Eugeny put up work and made incorrect claims about it. While he is a talented artist and helped us a lot on the mentioned project and others, I will not sit back and allow him to take credit for other peoples work.

Other people who worked on this project, and who were directly involved with this scene: Tal Flint, Shabi Leon, Gil Baran, Eyal Narkiss, Omry Shalish, Hadar Edry, Tom Dor, Nelly Levin, Guy Friedman and myself.

Regards,
Nir Hermoni
www.hermoni.com

Eugeny
12-13-2002, 10:13 AM
Dear Nir , please download the scenes that i posted , and see them carefully. I'm not posted the ALL Bugvaders serials, i posted the scenes there I made the animation's ... And than i say that i made all animation's i mean all animation's for these scenes - NOT for ALL Bugvaders! also YES i made all rigs for ALL characters if u not remember that just ask at Tom , even more, for these scenes i made my custom Kyle with hands modeled by me, and more short arms, as well as IK FK rig with controllers for all fingers (u can come back to Adventure and load these scenes to check it) ...
U can ask at Eyal about bike model, YES i made some changes for the lamp , as well as little changes for painting textures (ask Nelly), as well as bike rig - because only me used this bike in motion !
Now about animation's of the bugs - did u really think that i used the crappie bugs animation's made by some one else ? Or did u really think that i used one spot sun light at cemetery and other scenes made by Gil ? Still look at the the shots that i posted ... Then i say environments i mean lights, fog, background (yes, yes i changed the sky for the cemetery sequence), also the grass . I'm not modeled the surrounding objects (cross, landscape , trees e.t.c.) but i 'm not say this!
... uh, one more thing, Kyle - if u don't know this I'm remodeled Kyle's jacket (ask Nelly she made new textures for him) :) and Tony's head and Hair u ( can ask Ori) .
Now for other times there i take the credits ... The only one place there u may be saw work from Bugvaders is Wind Blowing Leaves that i posted here and on LWG3D forum
CG Talk thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29216&highlight=wind+blowing+leaves)
LWG3D thread (http://www.lwg3d.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8699&highlight=wind+blowing)
and sorry Nir but here i made ALL from stretch - i remodeled the cross (for close up) , the grave plate and i made little piece of ground for this scene, as well as modeled the leaves and textured. All lights on this scene was made by me as well as all wind susquatch effect - so why i need to share some credits for this short with some one else ? The scene WAS NOT INCLUDED on final cut (if u don't have final cut version ask at Yuav to receive) and i add the link to Bugvaders ... Pretty enough , not ?
The problem that this image was nominated to image of the month - but i was surprised exactly as u , they did this without asking me ...
As for credits u forget about Sherban (pretty well known on this board) and Yanay Rubaha .
Cheers Nir ,
Eugeny.

P.S. sorry guys for the little war here ...

Mike RB
12-13-2002, 02:34 PM
Take this to private messages. Any more of the who did what bugvaders stuff gets deleted from this thread.

Mike

vapulus
12-16-2002, 07:53 PM
First I'd like to say Mike and SG, you guys have once again proved why you're my LW heros. =)
</buttkissing>

Anyways, are there any kind of tutorials online that create the same kind of rig you guys use. All of the tuts I find are really poor, or create the lamest rigs I've ever seen. All of the character animation I've done has been in Maya. I can rig like a banshee in Maya, but I'm finding it difficult to create any semblance of a useable rig for my LW characters. Since I hate maya's renderer so much, I end up using renderman for everything, and it's just getting to the point where I'm sick of the hassle. I'd like to be able to animate my characters in LW. Any tuts for an experienced rigger that just needs the LW spin on things?
Oh, and I'd love to be able to pay for something to help me, but I can't...I'm a college student majoring in 3d animation...so my budget is nothin'. =)
Thus the necessity of tuts. =)
If you guys can give me any kind of help, I'll be appreciate. If not, I appreciate your time. =)

SplineGod
12-16-2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by vapulus
First I'd like to say Mike and SG, you guys have once again proved why you're my LW heros. =)
</buttkissing>

Anyways, are there any kind of tutorials online that create the same kind of rig you guys use. All of the tuts I find are really poor, or create the lamest rigs I've ever seen. All of the character animation I've done has been in Maya. I can rig like a banshee in Maya, but I'm finding it difficult to create any semblance of a useable rig for my LW characters. Since I hate maya's renderer so much, I end up using renderman for everything, and it's just getting to the point where I'm sick of the hassle. I'd like to be able to animate my characters in LW. Any tuts for an experienced rigger that just needs the LW spin on things?
Oh, and I'd love to be able to pay for something to help me, but I can't...I'm a college student majoring in 3d animation...so my budget is nothin'. =)
Thus the necessity of tuts. =)
If you guys can give me any kind of help, I'll be appreciate. If not, I appreciate your time. =)
The problem is that most people tend to rig based on technical criteria. They have been taught or told that rigging has something to do with expressions, IK, FK, twisting forearms, closing fingers and so on. Theyre shown HOW to create a rig and not WHY you rig. Ive found that most good animators I know come from a traditional Cel background. Ive found that many good riggers/animators come from a stop motion or puppetry background. There are certain basic principles that make a puppet a good one and makes it easy to work with. Those principles should drive WHY and HOW you rig. If those basic principles are understood properly it makes rigging easier because you know why youre doing what youre doing. Many people are creating rigs for themselves to use. Rigging for somone else who is a very experienced animator is another thing.
I think the reason you dont see lots of in depth tutorials on this is because it takes a lot of time just to do very basic rigging tutorials. The other reason is that, as I said, many people dont understand the princples that DRIVE the rigging (or should drive it). The Online Character Course I have has close to 12 hours JUST on rigging. Youve heard of the 12 principles of animation...well in that part of my course I have the 12 principles of rigging. If those principles are understood a person can rig in any package. In my case I show it for Lightwave. :)

vapulus
12-16-2002, 10:15 PM
I understand the principles of riggins and the kind of things you want to get out of a rig. I actually just completed a really good course on animation, and I learned a few rigs that really do what I want them to do. Unfortunately, I can only seem to apply these rigs in Maya (where I learned them), and I'm having difficulty getting a rig that can do the same things using lightwave. I may just resort to using someone else's rig, even if that does make me sad. I just look at the gifs Mike posted in the first post of this thread and I want to make THAT. =D I'm just curious how I'd make a rig of that quality using LW's tools.

Example: how would I create a non-expression-based roll attribute for the foot?

also, Mike's rig seems to have a lot of things I don't even know what they are. The circles through the midsection, and the circular planes below the feet. I don't even know what they are. =)
Like I said, I'm a LW rigging n00b. I would just like to learn it so I can quit using Maya for everything. =D

sherban
12-16-2002, 10:52 PM
I think those circles are just nulls. Although for the life of me I can't seem to find how to make a null look like that.

Mike, I'd also like to see a tut on how to make those knee targets or at least a small explanation on how they work:
Are they parented to anyhting?
What Goal strength do they have?
Are the bones unaffected by descendents?
etc.

I have a pretty good idea of WHAT I'd like my rigs to do but am lacking the technical knowlege of HOW. I keep having my feet 'slip' around the targets. Or the knees pointing in odd directions. No tuts I've found seem to address these points.

SplineGod
12-16-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by vapulus
I understand the principles of riggins and the kind of things you want to get out of a rig. I actually just completed a really good course on animation, and I learned a few rigs that really do what I want them to do. Unfortunately, I can only seem to apply these rigs in Maya (where I learned them), and I'm having difficulty getting a rig that can do the same things using lightwave. I may just resort to using someone else's rig, even if that does make me sad. I just look at the gifs Mike posted in the first post of this thread and I want to make THAT. =D I'm just curious how I'd make a rig of that quality using LW's tools.

Example: how would I create a non-expression-based roll attribute for the foot?

also, Mike's rig seems to have a lot of things I don't even know what they are. The circles through the midsection, and the circular planes below the feet. I don't even know what they are. =)
Like I said, I'm a LW rigging n00b. I would just like to learn it so I can quit using Maya for everything. =D
You mean you want the character to be able to roll up onto the ball of the foot? Use a null with math goal on it or orient constraints to keep the toe straight as the foot rotates up onto the ball. Those things hes using are Item Shapes so you can use little shapes, colors and labeles to make it clear what controllers do what.

Merlin
12-16-2002, 11:23 PM
I'm guessing Mike's using nulls with an ItemShape and maybe a ProxyPicker...? ... or something like that, a friend of mine, Joe Gardener, who's damn good at all things LW, wrote his thesis on rigging. If he still has it up on his ftp site, I'll post it here (gotta ask him first). In his thesis he takes you straight from the beginning to the end. Some parts are a little vague and jumpy but for the most part, a very new way of looking at rigging for me. However, he does use an expression to keep the foot on the floor whereas I tend to stay away from those just because I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to expressions. (not a good reason I know, but one thing at a time, please)

Neal

PS also, www.lostpencil.com has some great examples, as well as www.evil-plan.com

SplineGod
12-17-2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Merlin
I'm guessing Mike's using nulls with an ItemShape and maybe a ProxyPicker...? ... or something like that, a friend of mine, Joe Gardener, who's damn good at all things LW, wrote his thesis on rigging. If he still has it up on his ftp site, I'll post it here (gotta ask him first). In his thesis he takes you straight from the beginning to the end. Some parts are a little vague and jumpy but for the most part, a very new way of looking at rigging for me. However, he does use an expression to keep the foot on the floor whereas I tend to stay away from those just because I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to expressions. (not a good reason I know, but one thing at a time, please)

Neal

PS also, www.lostpencil.com has some great examples, as well as www.evil-plan.com
Yup, those are nulls with special item shapes on them. You can attach sliders to different nulls but you have to hide them so your interface doesnt get clutterered with them. Proxy pick allows you to select those hidden sliders/items easily. I dont think using expressions to keep feet from sliding thru the ground is a very good idea. Its just extra rigging that you can avoid by simply using the graph editor. I usually dont have animations where the ground is always the exact same level. This would mean creating an expression AND some way to override it. Too much work when its just easier to select y values in the graph editor and set them to the same height.

vapulus
12-17-2002, 01:05 AM
Okay, I have another question. I'm using to setting up set-driven keys that will form the poses I need in the hand. What's a good way of doing this in LW so I can form a hand-pose and then go back to the pose whenever I need to...a fist for example. I'm determined to replace maya in my workflow. =D I'm sick of it's quirks. =D

Mike RB
12-17-2002, 01:30 AM
Skin corrective morphing:
http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/tuts/cmorph/CMorphs.html


Pose Mixer:
http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/tuts/pmtut/pmtut.html

vapulus
12-17-2002, 02:04 AM
Thanks, Mike. =)
You guys have done a lot in pointing me in the right direction today. Now I'll just have to figure out how to make what I want in LW's surfacer. I'm used to renderman, now...it's been a while since I've used LW for anything besides it's super-sexy modeler. =D
I'll get there. Thanks for everybody's time. =D

geoff3dnz
12-17-2002, 06:40 PM
Hey there,

I was wondering what you guys think of Timothy Albee's rig in his book LW3D 7 Character Animation... it just seems to be quite unlike any other rigs that I've seen in tutorials, but certainly very useable. I'm not sure if I like the feet that much though...

Just interested,

Geoff

SplineGod
12-17-2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by vapulus
Okay, I have another question. I'm using to setting up set-driven keys that will form the poses I need in the hand. What's a good way of doing this in LW so I can form a hand-pose and then go back to the pose whenever I need to...a fist for example. I'm determined to replace maya in my workflow. =D I'm sick of it's quirks. =D
Lernie has an lscript that emulates how set driven keys work in maya.

SplineGod
12-17-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by geoff3dnz
Hey there,

I was wondering what you guys think of Timothy Albee's rig in his book LW3D 7 Character Animation... it just seems to be quite unlike any other rigs that I've seen in tutorials, but certainly very useable. I'm not sure if I like the feet that much though...

Just interested,

Geoff
Ive never seen the book but like anything else heard good and bad about it. Its probably better then it is bad. Seeing alternative ways of rigging never hurts. For me what drives how I rig is what the character has to do.

Tudor
12-20-2002, 04:01 PM
I hope you guys saw my rig that I posted..

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32892

Facial Deluxe
12-23-2002, 07:49 AM
This rig is awesome, hope I'll be able to reproduce that one day.
Did someone learned you ?

anobrin
12-25-2002, 09:27 PM
Greetings all,

IM a toatal newbie at character animation with lightwave
but im usung credos lifeforms to map character motion to lightwave rigs and learning to clean up and refine it in the POWERFUL Graph editor
here are som very rough examples

http://66.70.166.29/promo/getup.mpg

http://66.70.166.29/promo/reduced.mpg

thanks

plotz
01-04-2003, 04:05 AM
On another note.

How about animating your characters.

One thing I've found odd about LW is the TCB splines.

How many people use TCB splines vs. Beziers?

I'm partial to beziers myself, just because that's what I've come up using in other apps.

The beziers in LW are a bit weird at times though. Seems like they default to broken tangents.

Advantages/Disadvantages?

I like the precise in/out velocity control that beziers offer on a per keyframe basis.

Joril
01-04-2003, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by plotz
On another note.
How about animating your characters.
One thing I've found odd about LW is the TCB splines.
How many people use TCB splines vs. Beziers?
I'm partial to beziers myself, just because that's what I've come up using in other apps.
The beziers in LW are a bit weird at times though. Seems like they default to broken tangents.
Advantages/Disadvantages?
I like the precise in/out velocity control that beziers offer on a per keyframe basis.

I only use TCB splines.
The others splines are no good, try setting up something complex with non TCBs and zoom in on the spline. You see these odd tiny alternations ... I bet that will give you some problems, quircky movements, or motion-blurr errors.
Btw, you can get the exact same result using TCBs that what you do with beziers, ect.
I don't know if this has come up already, haven't plowed through this entire thread.

SplineGod
01-04-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by plotz
On another note.

How about animating your characters.

One thing I've found odd about LW is the TCB splines.

How many people use TCB splines vs. Beziers?

I'm partial to beziers myself, just because that's what I've come up using in other apps.

The beziers in LW are a bit weird at times though. Seems like they default to broken tangents.

Advantages/Disadvantages?

I like the precise in/out velocity control that beziers offer on a per keyframe basis.
I think bezier splines are great for motion editing and 2D artwork.
I prefer to add a point to a curve and then position that point. Its a simple process that requires less tweaking and thinking. I have found that the more I have to think about tools the less creative I am and the slower things go. The tweaking of control handles on bezier splines and deciding if I want them to be symmetrical or not etc etc drives me nuts. :)

plotz
01-04-2003, 07:53 PM
You see these odd tiny alternations ... I bet that will give you some problems, quircky movements, or motion-blurr errors.

Yes. I've found this to be the case...it's pretty madening.

How do you get precise velocity control with TCB splines? Motion keyed with them, to me, seems to uniform and "perfect".

I learned most of my animation skills in Softimage 3D, so I'm just used to beziers.

I guess I just find it easier to grab a handle and watch what's happening to the curve, since my eye's been trained to associate certian curve shapes to certian types of motion.

SplineGod
01-04-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by plotz
Yes. I've found this to be the case...it's pretty madening.

How do you get precise velocity control with TCB splines? Motion keyed with them, to me, seems to uniform and "perfect".

I learned most of my animation skills in Softimage 3D, so I'm just used to beziers.

I guess I just find it easier to grab a handle and watch what's happening to the curve, since my eye's been trained to associate certian curve shapes to certian types of motion.
For some motions I prefer bezier splines. You can switch between different types of splines in Lightwaves graph editor. I also associate certain curve shapes with certain types of motion.

Frankie
01-05-2003, 08:46 PM
You can even change the curve type on a per keyframe baises, so you can have the 'incomming curve' tcb on frame 10 comming from frame 0 then the 'incomming curve' bezier on frame 20 comming from frame 10. It could be usefull I guess but ive never had to use it.

tOd
01-10-2003, 06:42 PM
Spline God,
Your arm was cool on the first page. Al one easy expression? Cool! Where can I learn how to set that up?

SplineGod
01-10-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by tOd
Spline God,
Your arm was cool on the first page. Al one easy expression? Cool! Where can I learn how to set that up?
What I have available for free is located at:
http://www.splinegod.com/onlinetraining.htm
down at the bottom of the page. :)
I also have some free rigs too.

carefulconan
01-19-2003, 05:32 AM
Mike's stuff does indeed rock!

I would love to know how to set up muscle ik like that.
are these models for anything specific?

Mike how did you learn? was it in industry? experimentation?
any tips? like " jam bones into rigs and just trust god?"
the more tangible the advice the better.

thanks.

UserDelta
02-25-2003, 01:05 PM
now that i have something new to show i'll add some of my stuff :)
http://www.tittiwinkle.com/animadragon.gif
http://www.tittiwinkle.com/oldwitchrig.gif

bobakabob
03-01-2003, 12:21 AM
Great work, Mike and User Delta. Here's a link to a brief test animation in divx using inverse kinematics.
Link to Techno_Angel_avi (http://www.invisibleray.co.uk/technoangel.htm)
http://www.invisibleray.co.uk/experiment/angel6055.jpg
The skeleton was very basic... you can get some sophisticated movements out of a generic 'stick figure' rig.
Rob

Castius
03-01-2003, 07:35 PM
I'd love to hear your guys opnion on my rigging setup/script. I've posted other places but i usally dont' get alot of feed back. I love rigging and it can be difficult to remeber to keep it simple cause it fun to try to push the limits of the software. The goal was to creat a simple system to rig and copy animation to other models and i'm pretty happy with the results. I ended up with some very similer to ACS but with with basic lw tools. The most fun was making a usable rig with no floating controlers. There are still some short coming I'd like to fix in future versions mainly with lookat/IK versus FK. Making an IK then swiching to FK is far easyer at this point. I don't like the slider setup for fingers . I'd love a proxy to command plugin so when you can pick a selection set or somthig when picking a object.

you want to look at rigging 2

Steelronin rigging (http://www.steelronin.com/index.php?page=downloads&content=rigging)

Thanks for any input

Castius
03-01-2003, 07:47 PM
forgot the screen shot

the floating controls I do have are just part of the mesh so you can model them anyway you like. and after working with the rig for a few min I found i didn't need the visual proxys any more and i just went in and set them to 100 disolve so all i saw was my mesh.

http://www.steelronin.com/2d/rigging2_s.gif

Emmanuel
03-17-2003, 11:55 AM
Hi,

gotta say I love it, especially because it seems to become the most intuitive and natural (puppet-like) way to control a character.
It has some Character Studio style.
How far are You with it ?


Thanks,
Emmanuel

proton
03-17-2003, 02:22 PM
this is awesome!

Castius
03-17-2003, 03:47 PM
Thanks guys Glad you like it. I got to really put the rig to alot more testing doing basic walk, and run animation. In doing so I found some problems and I have fixed them. so it has better Ik and motion mixer actors have been changed. Do to sliders and the fact you can't have an object in two actors. This was leaving all the finger animation out of the main actor. I have also now included two script that can hide or show the proxy mesh buy effecting the desolve this alow the proxy mesh to be hidden but still be used as a selection. Still working on converting this to lscript as well hopefully some time soon.
Head to www.steelronin.com for the updated files.

Have fun

hithet
03-19-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Mike RB
another example of a LW rig:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/demin.gif

Simple muscle bone setup:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/arm.gif

Complex muscle experiment:
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/demonM2.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/paratrooper/demonM2.gif

hi !
could u tell me do u use lightwave only?
your animation is very great!

adrencg
03-25-2003, 02:41 PM
If the max posting size is 20,000 bytes, then how are these people uploading 500k files?

20,000 bytes is about 20k, right?

Mike RB
03-27-2003, 02:39 AM
Yes I use LW only, and those images are linked from an outside server, they are not attachments.

Mike

hithet
03-27-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by adrencg
If the max posting size is 20,000 bytes, then how are these people uploading 500k files?

20,000 bytes is about 20k, right?

but , i think u used messiah!
???

Mike RB
03-27-2003, 02:27 PM
You're wrong

hithet
03-27-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by hithet
but , i think u used messiah!
???


cool! you are great LW artist!
Could u like to write a tutorial that how to set up these bone in layout,if u agree i think all of Chinese LWer should be thank u very much!

do u agree?


hithet@sh163.com

billy_dee
04-02-2003, 01:16 PM
Mike Rb,
I'm watching your demon rig (the blobby guy) and get my head around it, except for one thing. How are you moving the upper torso like you are? Is there Ik on your spine?

Excellent looking rigs all around!:beer:

Mike RB
04-02-2003, 03:04 PM
Yup, ik on spine.

hwachai
04-08-2003, 03:47 AM
Mike Rb >> VERY nice rigs!!

did u use any expression on it ...

can share ur ideas??

thanks !!

again, well done!!!!!

ChrisBasken
04-16-2003, 06:54 PM
I may be the newb to the party, but why do you need a low-rez mesh to animate to? If you're using subpatches, can't you just set the subdiv to 1 or 2 (or 0), then render at 5 or 6 (or whatever)?:curious:

SplineGod
04-16-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by ChrisBasken
I may be the newb to the party, but why do you need a low-rez mesh to animate to? If you're using subpatches, can't you just set the subdiv to 1 or 2 (or 0), then render at 5 or 6 (or whatever)?:curious:
The reason is that even with SubDs on the lowest Subdivision setting you might still be looking at hundreds of thousands of polys. The only way around it is to use low poly standins. This also applies to scenes with lots of characters. You have to plan ahead for this. I just use a low rez version that I chop up and parent to the bones directly. That way I can shut off all deformations and just animate. Its much faster to separate the animation part from the deformations part. If you think it sounds complicated read this thread about what people do in Maya.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=526623#post526623

Tudor
04-17-2003, 07:46 AM
Well.. Maya is a pain to rig with. Fast to set up bones and IK, but a bitch to skin and keep track of stuff.
What they have that I would like though is wrap deformers.
basically a lattice, but it can be of any shape, for example your low poly animation objekt. Less vertices to weight, less time before you animate.

SplineGod
04-17-2003, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Tudor
Well.. Maya is a pain to rig with. Fast to set up bones and IK, but a bitch to skin and keep track of stuff.
What they have that I would like though is wrap deformers.
basically a lattice, but it can be of any shape, for example your low poly animation objekt. Less vertices to weight, less time before you animate.
Ive seen MD used to simulate wrap deformers. Also, since using Ortho I dont bother with skelegons anymore or the workflow
that is dependant on them. I do it all in layout now. SOooo much nicer. :)

Tudor
04-17-2003, 09:07 AM
Well. If MD was realtime it would be nice. Not good enough as it is now I am afraid :/ If you see it your way we already have lattices in LW.
And skelegons.. tried it, cursed a bit, and went back to normal bones. I never use skelegons at all. Been using LW for such a long time now that I can do skeletons without any problem anyways :)

Originally posted by SplineGod
Ive seen MD used to simulate wrap deformers. Also, since using Ortho I dont bother with skelegons anymore or the workflow
that is dependant on them. I do it all in layout now. SOooo much nicer. :)

Kid-Mesh
04-20-2003, 06:57 PM
Well Im defintely not a Maya Fan Boy (GO LW) .... but this doesnt seem very complicated at all... actually seems very intuitive but then thats only my 2 cents.


A Short Maya Rigging vid clip (http://www.aliaswavefront.com/en/products/maya/movies/character_animation.shtml)

SplineGod
04-20-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Kid Mesh
Well Im defintely not a Maya Fan Boy (GO LW) .... but this doesnt seem very complicated at all... actually seems very intuitive but then thats only my 2 cents.


A Short Maya Rigging vid clip (http://www.aliaswavefront.com/en/products/maya/movies/character_animation.shtml)
I guess it depends partially on how deep into the program a person has to go. Beyond a certain level it gets messy. :)

Kid-Mesh
04-20-2003, 10:39 PM
Well if your reffering to Maya I would tend to agree since its work flow from what I have seen reminds me of Max in a funny sort of way. And if thats the case... Using Max with out character studio, rigging would leave one...lets say / BrainDead /.

I spent countless days and nights trying to get rigs to work properly in Max and damn near brought myself to tears.

Not saying that LW is a cakewalk but compared to what I have been exposed too...LW is a breath of fresh air in that area. And I wished I would have started with it first. :cool:

ansonkit
04-24-2003, 05:27 AM
unbelieveable, only using bone in ik on spine can create this marvelous animation setting...

how the hell u got this utilise full of ur brain cell creature here...

make me to shout it out loud... YOU GREAT MIKE.

beyondMyth
05-24-2003, 06:33 PM
Here's a rig i've been working with for a character, its actually the first-real-seriuos-rig i've done up to this date.

I'd love some feedback and C&C from those of you who're experienced with character animation and rigs :)

I think the images speaks for themself.. ;)

http://user.tninet.se/~wez558w/rig01.jpg

http://user.tninet.se/~wez558w/rig02.jpg

http://user.tninet.se/~wez558w/rig03.jpg

http://user.tninet.se/~wez558w/rig04.jpg

proton
05-27-2003, 02:47 PM
looks like a sweet rig....you should convert it to an ACS4 rig :)

beyondMyth
05-29-2003, 06:03 PM
Thanks :) .,. but why convert to ACS4? i do know what ACS4 is, but im not sure as to why i should convert it? :P

pixelranger
08-02-2003, 06:11 PM
I don't mean to change the subject, but how do you pros set up your rigs for nice shoulder deformation or, maybe even more difficult, shoulder animation. If you use IK on the arms, do you keyframe the "shoulder connector bone" to make the character raise his shoulders as weel as his arms or do you just let it be controlled by IK applying a higher stiffness value to it?
If you use FK on the arms I guess theres not much hassle...
And another thing... How many bones do you set up in the shoulder area?
I seem to remember a very nice tutorial about this, but I can't find it...

Any help highly appreciated!

ps. Incredibly nice demos at Siggraph, Proton, Deuce and SplineGod! And thanks a lot for streaming them!

Castius
08-04-2003, 04:39 PM
http://www.steelronin.com/index.php?page=downloads&content=rigging

pixelranger as far as motion this is the IK setup I came up with at least for a game rig. With LW multigoal IK you can create some nice arm IK but it can be a struggle to get it right.. A lot of top animator don’t like IK for arms. With good reason it can look like crap. This setup seems to get rid of a lot of the crap IK feel with a lot of freedom of movement. Even if it does take a little getting used to.

As far as deformation joint position is Very important. good luck

Scott

eburdeinick
11-28-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Mike RB
This is what I used:

http://forum.lwhub.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=327

Mike

This is an attachment.php, how does this work ? it's not a lightwave sene...

dalecampbelljr
03-09-2004, 08:52 PM
Where can a person find keytrak?
Dale

untilitsleeps
04-06-2004, 04:23 PM
:bowdown:


Those things....

they make me...

:drool:

chikega
05-18-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by dalecampbelljr
Where can a person find keytrak?
Dale

KeyTrak is no more ... the developer ceased developing plugins for LW and is now working for Luxology.:)

Brötje
07-22-2004, 11:43 AM
The site you are refering to seems to be hacked! Where else can I find the tutorial for muscle deformation? It looks so cool!


Cheers!

lightwaveman200
07-25-2004, 09:36 AM
It seems that the lwhub site is hacked.Take a look at this:

http://forum.lwhub.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=327

Isn't there any other place to see the rigging tutorial?

Thanks.

Triple G
08-16-2004, 07:05 AM
Seems that just the forums part of the site was hacked. You can still get to the tutorial and content pages by going here:

http://www.lwhub.com/breakdown.html :thumbsup:

SplineGod
08-16-2004, 07:15 AM
Where can a person find keytrak?
DaleAs Gary mentioned it apparently is no more. You never know if Mark will bring it back or not.
However, it has been my experience that plugin developers, like nature, abhor a vacuum. It would surprise me if something pops up to replace it. :)

Brotje,
Theres LOTS of ways to get muscle deformations even easier then the lwhub tutorial.
Once way is to create a muscle bone or bones, tweak them when the arm bends and then use cycler to tie the behavior to the rotation of another bone. You can also use morphs, clothfx, KO_Polyfit and Shift Spline Transform to do muscle deformations.
Heres an example using Shift Spline Transform.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/muscle_splines.gif

Stormrazor
08-30-2004, 09:15 PM
MikeRB your link you posted on page 1


http://forum.lwhub.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=327

seems to have been hacked. I am new and don't know what it said.

pixeloddity
12-23-2004, 01:03 PM
Now this is a great thread. Awesome work Mike. Especially love the Invid trooper....( That is an Invid machine right? Can't remember. Been a long time since I have watched Robotech :rolleyes:

curious_69_george
01-19-2005, 01:45 AM
Hey mike.....did you use any weight maps in the complex muscle experiment you posted on the first post of this thread.

pueblo3d
02-28-2005, 04:03 PM
Big, big work, big muscle effects.

Eddie_rossi
04-05-2005, 08:53 PM
I found a great IK Tutorial on the web, Still working out a few bugs with it tho.. even setting limits on each bone I get unwanted shifting... If you want the tutorial Email me, I don't think they want me posting it all over the place :)

radboi22@yahoo.com

Bliz
12-04-2006, 04:45 PM
As Gary mentioned it apparently is no more. You never know if Mark will bring it back or not.
However, it has been my experience that plugin developers, like nature, abhor a vacuum. It would surprise me if something pops up to replace it. :)

Brotje,
Theres LOTS of ways to get muscle deformations even easier then the lwhub tutorial.
Once way is to create a muscle bone or bones, tweak them when the arm bends and then use cycler to tie the behavior to the rotation of another bone. You can also use morphs, clothfx, KO_Polyfit and Shift Spline Transform to do muscle deformations.
Heres an example using Shift Spline Transform.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/muscle_splines.gif

Looks intruiging Larry but I'm not sure how you've done it as I'm not familiar with "Shift Spline Transfor". Must do some research.
I have actually purchased your 'rigging a quadraped CD' but have only recently had time to follow the first part. I'm going to be hitting it hard over the Xmas period though so I'll let you know how I get on.

BTW are there any admins reading this thread? I think it should be a sticky in the main LW forum as I only just found this thread by luck. I think it's a great thread for counteracting the 'LW doesn't do character animation' prejudice that some people have.

kattkieru
12-11-2006, 04:36 PM
You know, after looking at some of the examples in here (done years back, no less), I have a hard time understanding why people bag on LW's CA tools. They're quirky for sure, but it seems a person who sets out to achieve a goal can do so with what's there.

Are there any folks out there using LW for CA right now who could post more recent examples of their work in this thread? Also, since LW 9 was released and a lot of plugins were lost between 7.5 and 9 (according to various threads), what are people using now to do CA in pure LW, and what changes did folks have to make since the v9 upgrade?

Julez4001
12-11-2006, 07:57 PM
[QUOTE=kattkieru]You know, after looking at some of the examples in here (done years back, no less), I have a hard time understanding why people bag on LW's CA tools. They're quirky for sure, but it seems a person who sets out to achieve a goal can do so with what's there.

QUOTE]

Primarily because a lot of the character tools don't talk to each other or once down a road there is no turning back but rather starting completely over.

taxibickle
12-25-2006, 02:45 AM
This is what I used:

http://forum.lwhub.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=327

Mike

I got a bogus link that said something about the site being hacked. There were no links or anything.

cresshead
01-25-2007, 04:45 PM
whooosh.....
what was that?
...that was free speech mate....seems it's not welcome any longer so it's off on holiday!

TH7
06-08-2008, 07:52 AM
Oh! ... Amazing work i like verymuch ...:applause:

m0ng00se
08-19-2008, 11:19 PM
Well I'm none the wiser. The animations look awesome for sure but I was hoping they would be accompanied by tutorials or specific information on how to achieve the same results.

I've just started learning Lightwave and seriously if I want to see killer animations then I can simply go down the video store and rent a movie like Shrek. Lightwave has been used in heaps of commercial animation movies (that's why I moved to the product!!!).

I want to know HOW to do them... in infinite detail... as I'm well aware WHAT lightwave can do. It's like a secret society. You can get a zillion gigabytes of Maya tutorials on the web showing how to do anything you could dream of but most of the Lightwave stuff is just bits and pieces without much detail.

My bible is Timothy Albee's book Character Animation but it's for an older version of Lightwave and it still glosses over heaps of stuff (like why he prefers skelegons to Layout boning). Without that book I would have given up by now because even after spending a week reading and watching all the lightwave tutorials I could find (mostly u-tube and the product documentation) I'm still totally confused by stuff like weight maps. Mine just break everything I've built.

m0ng00se

zgaoshou
11-29-2008, 04:13 PM
i can`t see it,it is all of ×.