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Jack Hammer
10-26-2005, 04:07 PM
Hi, are there any Cinema users that use Modo for modelling, or use it as a companion for Cinema. Any thoughts on how good a modeller it is (or isnít) compared to Cinema?

Afrowave
10-26-2005, 04:31 PM
Yes, there are. Most of the guys who started of 3D in Lightwave that I know, who are on the Mac platform (I included) found Cinema4D modeling good but different. When modo came out they tried it out because of its shared history with Lightwave and because Cinema4D opens .lwo and .lws natively. This is the format that modo adopted from its Lightwave roots.

With this kind of workflow Cinema4D acts like a platform where other function-specific programs can work on. Think Motionbuilder for animation and Maxwell renderer for output. This is not to say Cinema4D Advanced Renderer is not good, just different.

Jack Hammer
10-26-2005, 11:24 PM
So Modo is more like Lightwave when it comes to modelling?

duderender
10-26-2005, 11:36 PM
Modo and LW modelling are very similar. However, modo has its style now with edge support and such.

I model in modo and then do tweaks in c4d. I just don't like c4d's workflow for modeling as the default shortcuts and option buttons are bit odd. For example, starting the knife tool and then having to select 'loop' is a bit clunky, IMHO.

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 12:02 AM
hi, this is very easy to change (you can customize any tool to come up how you want using scripts).

make a new script, call it loop cut and put in this:

CallCommand(1016030);
var tool=doc->GetActiveTool();
tool#MDATA_KNIFE_MODE=2;

give it an icon if you want, save it and drag and drop it onto your shelf, or assign it a keyboard shortcut. this will now bring up the knife tool in loop mode.

you can bring up any tool you want in any mode with any settings this way (and even do the same with objects).

as for an explanation of what the code does

the first line literally Calls the Command "Knife", the Number is the ID for knife which you can find by going to the command manager and typing in "Knife" knife will be selected and at the bottom above the shortcuts you'll see a number, this is that number. this way you can call any commands (and of course create macros), you can even call Make Cube etc this way if you want.

the second line get's the newly selected tool as an object, by calling the document's (doc) GetActiveTool() function, this returns the tool so we can then change it's settings

which is what we do in the third line, this line was creted by simply typing in "tool" then dragging and dropping the "Mode" from the AM to the Script manager, this made it add the "#MDATA_KNIFE_MODE" bit, and I then added the "=2;" but which sets the mode to 2, this part may require a little experimentation, but for dropdown menu's it's generally in numeric order (i.e. the first option is generally 0, the second is 1, the third is 2), you can take the guesswork out by changing the end and in the script manager going "println(tool#MDATA_KNIFE_MODE);" and it will print out the numeber you need to use in the Console. or you could open up the resource file in the cinema/resource/res/ folder for each tool, and/or check out the sdk docs.

Rabbitroo
10-27-2005, 12:08 AM
I like Modo a lot and do most of my modelling in it. It just has a smoother workflow for my tastes. It isn't that radically different from C4D 9.1 or later in terms of basic toolset. (I do a lot of poly-by-poly building.) I do like that it has excellent OGL perfromance, which makes working with high-poly stuff less of a chore.

In some ways it's a little like LW's modeler, but I'd say overall it's a differnt beast. For example, Modo supports edges, LW's modeler doesn't really. Modo's tools are multifunctional, LW tends to have a lot of specialized tools. Modo is almost always interactive "live" display, some of LW's tools are more modal.

I think the biggest inconvienience I run across right now is that there is no easy way to get edge weights between Modo and C4D. C4D's lack of an LW exporter is also a little bit of an annoyance, but Riptide's .obj support seems to make portability pretty straight forward.

Like Duderender, I do tweaking in C4D for thinks that import to Modo.

There are some things that a miss about C4D in Modo. For example, I love having a mouse button with the rectangle selection tool so I can just changes selections on the fly without droping the current tool. I similarly like the [tap-spacebar]-[select]-[tap-spacebar] workflow in C4D for fiddling with selections.

-K

duderender
10-27-2005, 12:12 AM
hi, this is very easy to change (you can customize any tool to come up how you want using scripts)....


Thanks! excellent description, I shall keep this in mind. I may have to do this for a few commands to 'modo-ise' c4d.

duderender
10-27-2005, 12:15 AM
I think the biggest inconvienience I run across right now is that there is no easy way to get edge weights between Modo and C4D. C4D's lack of an LW exporter is also a little bit of an annoyance, but Riptide's .obj support seems to make portability pretty straight forward.



However, if you put weights in modo, you should see a vertex weight tag in the AM in c4d!

Be sure you're saving lwo from modo and not obj. C4D has and EXCELLENT lwo importer.

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 12:27 AM
on the shortcuts thing, i'm not sure why that would really be abother enough to spend several hundered dollars on a new app (after all it only takes a couple of minutes to change all your shortcuts in c4d).

also with the selections thing try using the numeric keys in c4d for editing without changing modes, by default:

0 - rectangular selection
9 - live selection
8 - lasso selection
7 - Scale Size (important differentiation here)
6 - rotate
5 - Scale "Scale"
4 - move
3,2,1 - viewport manipulation

for additional lightwave/modo like behaviours you can also switch off the axis from the viewport display filter menu, and reassign "Toggle Parent Generator" to the Tab key to switch hypernurbs on/off with the tab rather than with the Q.

of course there's also the tweaking and tweaking with soft selections etc too... in general i find C4D a much better polygon modeler than Modo (which i find to be Lightwave Modeler 2, and reminds me of all the reasons why I really wouldn't want to go back to lightwave). however Modo does have a few nice features, for instance the tool pipe is a nice way to bring together the various mode/options that tools have, and axis control and something that C4D lacks as it's a bit all over the shop in that department.

The only thing I would say is if you already own c4d, then learn to model in C4D, and learn it's tools. Very often people get other apps then come back wondering if C4D can do this that or the other when it can and they simply didn't try/learn, and then end up spending a lot of money on stuff they didn't need. Try the demo out, if you like the way Modo works and find that this suits your way of working better then go for it, it's a great app and will work fine (as will every other polygon modeler out there) alongside C4D.

duderender
10-27-2005, 12:34 AM
mdme_sadie,

quite true. modo just worked for me because of the time I was in LW. C4D has an excellent toolset for modelling. For me it was a comfort thing and modo works for me. But I have enough time in c4d to tweak models and be able model on existing geometry.

to me, c4d seems more rigid in its tool selections and execution. modo seems more fluid.

i agree, perhaps if i was to reroute the commands to a single base say to match xsi or modo then I would be such a stick in the mud. maybe.

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 12:41 AM
Can you give an example of where/how you feel it's more rigid in the tools/selections? And maybe if theres specific ways that you'd improve that?

duderender
10-27-2005, 12:49 AM
Can you give an example of where/how you feel it's more rigid in the tools/selections? And maybe if theres specific ways that you'd improve that?

We ran through this before! LOL.... deja vu??

Sorry, not specifically... its just how i feel.

Tell you what, my next modeling experiment will be in C4D and I will give it an honest go.

Sometimes, its the AM with the tags I need to put it. For example with bend, twist, symmetry. Perhaps if I could just put symmetry on my current object with a hotkey? I'm just not efficient in interacting with the AM perhaps.

Rabbitroo
10-27-2005, 12:51 AM
However, if you put weights in modo, you should see a vertex weight tag in the AM in c4d!

Be sure you're saving lwo from modo and not obj. C4D has and EXCELLENT lwo importer.

Unfortunately I don't. :( SDS Weights from both Lightwave and Modo never make it to C4D. Since C4D doesn't seem to load LW's subpatch weights as well as Modo's LWO output with subpatch weights, I'm thinking it's probably something I'm doing wrong in C4D or C4D's LWO importer (at least on a Mac).

-K

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 01:08 AM
hmm, you mean the OM (object manager) i presume? ok i can understand where you're coming from (though the OM is for me one of cinema's big strong points), have you tried holding down Alt while you click the symmetry object?

or if you want here's a sneaky tip for anyone who wants to be able to bring in objects anywhere they want on a keyboard shortcut, go to the command manager get teh symmetry object, and apply a keyboard shortcut to it, e.g. ";" but instead of just giving it that shortcut press ALT+(your shortcut key), this will result in a symmetry that can be added with a click. to turn it on/off once you have it you can use this script (and assign it a keyboard shortcut).

var parent=op->GetUp();
if (parent) parent#ID_BASEOBJECT_GENERATOR_FLAG=!parent#ID_BASEOBJECT_GENERATOR_FLAG;

this is a slightly different approach to the "Toggle Parent Generator" in the Command manager, which specifically searches out HyperNurbs objects, as this directly turns on/off the parent generator no matter what type it is.

in this script the first line gets the parent object (if there is one) by looking up from teh object (op is the object, GetUp() is the function that returns the parent).

the second line first checks if you have a parent object, if it exists then it simply sets it's "Enable" to be whatever it isn't... which sounds confusing but it's a Boolean value (i.e. TRUE or FALSE), so when you set it to not be what it is then it means that if it's TRUE it becomes FALSE, if it's FALSE then it becomes TRUE, this is done by the =! bit (which in programming terms means equals not... i.e. equals whatever is isn't).

anyhow that should help you, and maybe help a few others too if they want some extra tips on basic scripting or less well known cinema functions. by the way the alt key isn't the only one, SHIFT and CTRL also do other things for the obejcts placement when it's created.

duderender
10-27-2005, 01:22 AM
Unfortunately I don't. :( SDS Weights from both Lightwave and Modo never make it to C4D. Since C4D doesn't seem to load LW's subpatch weights as well as Modo's LWO output with subpatch weights, I'm thinking it's probably something I'm doing wrong in C4D or C4D's LWO importer (at least on a Mac).

-K

Would you be willing to send me your example modo model?

duderender
10-27-2005, 01:23 AM
hmm, you mean the OM (object manager) i presume? ok i can understand where you're coming from (though the OM is for me one of cinema's big strong points), have you tried holding down Alt while you click the symmetry object?

yes, yes and yes.

I dig cinema, don't get me wrong. Its one of those things, you get cozy somewhere.....

I'm going to try these things mdme_sadie, thanks for your time.

Rabbitroo
10-27-2005, 01:58 AM
Would you be willing to send me your example modo model?

Sure. Here's an 8 vertex box, sub-patched with all verticies weighted at 50%.

I'm beginning to suspect Modo 103's LWO file, but not sure yet . . .

It reloads fine in Modo, but C4D isn't seeing the weight map.

Any insight you can give me would be great!

TIA,
-K

EDIT: I get it now! Weight maps are picked up by C4D, but SubD Weights are not. Thanks for the tip, Duderender!

-K

miklo
10-27-2005, 10:23 AM
hi, this is very easy to change (you can customize any tool to come up how you want using scripts).

make a new script, call it loop cut and put in this:

CallCommand(1016030);
var tool=doc->GetActiveTool();
tool#MDATA_KNIFE_MODE=2;

give it an icon if you want, save it and drag and drop it onto your shelf, or assign it a keyboard shortcut. this will now bring up the knife tool in loop mode.



It's clever, many thanks and here is my icon for your explanation. ;)
http://miklo.wz.cz/cinema/KnifeLoopCut.gif

Afrowave
10-28-2005, 07:50 PM
There you are, Jack.

I must admit, the reason I took out modo for a spin (downloaded 30-day license) is the Lightwave background, but I do all my modelling in C4D now. I haven't done much in modo though since I chose to go with C4D for the whole pipeline. I want to master C4D to catch up with say, Third-Eye, whoa!

I am happy about the tips I have gotten here on tools, this is great, C4Ders. :applause:

Rabbitroo
10-28-2005, 11:17 PM
I am happy about the tips I have gotten here on tools, this is great, C4Ders. :applause:

If you're looking for a quick route to take your C4D modeling skills up a level, you might want to look into the 3DFluff DVDs. I particulary like this one on inorganic modelling:

http://dvd.3dfluff.com/vol3_1.htm

-K

duderender
10-28-2005, 11:26 PM
EDIT: I get it now! Weight maps are picked up by C4D, but SubD Weights are not. Thanks for the tip, Duderender!

-K

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner but it looks like you got on. Your welcome. I've found the lwo to C4D excellent.

Bones come across too, but you need only reattach them. Not sure on the morphs, but you can use point oven with the c4d motion designer plugin (mdd reader).

Rabbitroo
10-28-2005, 11:58 PM
I just have to non-addict myself to edge SubD weights for now. I really liked them for sharpening up my non-organics without adding geometry. ;) I can always tweak in Cinema post-modo. :D

Afrowave
11-02-2005, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Rabittroo
iIf you're looking for a quick route to take your C4D modeling skills up a level, you might want to look into the 3DFluff DVDs. I particulary like this one on inorganic modelling

Thanks, Kevin, I have a big job to do now for our airline and I need to model inorganic forms quick! I hope to make a purchase of the DVDs from 3DFluff next week, I can't wait for them to land!

I know I will begin to change things on my old trusty G4. Soon 3GHz(?) Quadcore G5 ... (slurp!!)

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