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RobertoOrtiz
10-25-2005, 02:08 PM
Quote:"

The IBM-built chip features three customized PowerPC computing engines that can each handle two simultaneous tasks at clock speeds greater than 3 gigahertz. It was customized for Microsoft in less than 24 months from the original contract.

Less than a month before Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox 360 hits store shelves, International Business Corp. revealed details of the microprocessor that powers the long-awaited video game console."
>>link<< (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051025/ap_on_hi_te/xbox_processor;_ylt=Aj1nj14whdr_ZL1_5Fx30Ges0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cjE0b2MwBHNlYwM3Mzg-)
-R

gavin_hughes
10-25-2005, 02:36 PM
what exactly is the news here...


maybe the "AP" prefix in the thread title justifies that.. since i dont know what that "AP" stands for, ill assume so.

Vertizor
10-25-2005, 02:41 PM
I was watching a teaser video for Call of Duty 2, which will be available for both Xbox 360 and PC as well. The speaker pointed out that they divided the workload across each of the 3 cores. 1 core would be processing A.I., another would work on physics, the third one another task.

What really gets my attention is, games weren't traditionally designed for multiple processors/cores. But with the advent of these next gen consoles with multiple cores, apparently it's going to change the way game programmers design the game loops and I'm wondering if eventually dual CPU or dual core will be listed as recommended or even required in a game's "system requirements."

Well obviously that's just a matter of time, but maybe now it's going to happen sooner rather than later.

RobertoOrtiz
10-25-2005, 03:00 PM
what exactly is the news here...


maybe the "AP" prefix in the thread title justifies that.. since i dont know what that "AP" stands for, ill assume so.

Associated Press.
And the news is more information on the 360 Processor. It might not be of interest to you, fair enough, but there are people who want more info.

-R

Thalaxis
10-25-2005, 03:23 PM
Associated Press.
And the news is more information on the 360 Processor. It might not be of interest to you, fair enough, but there are people who want more info.



It's not actually more info, though; what's in that article has been publicly available for a couple of months now.


What really gets my attention is, games weren't traditionally designed for multiple processors/cores. But with the advent of these next gen consoles with multiple cores, apparently it's going to change the way game programmers design the game loops and I'm wondering if eventually dual CPU or dual core will be listed as recommended or even required in a game's "system requirements."


By the time the PS3 ships, multiple cores will be mainstream across the board, so most games in development now will probably be developed with multiple cores in mind. One the XBox360 and PS3, it's mandatory to design the game that way, or else it will perform miserably, but one significant advantage that the XBox360 has is that XNA is designed to work the same way on PC's as on the console... so the lessons learned developing for one will transfer directly to the other. The PS3's still the odd man out due to having only one general-purpose core.

Thalaxis
10-25-2005, 03:24 PM
Edit: accidental double post.

AdamHerbert
10-25-2005, 11:51 PM
It's not actually more info, though; what's in that article has been publicly available for a couple of months now.

Just because it's old news, doesn't mean it's not news. I've read a lot about the Xbox 360 and it's processors, but have never seen this article. So, thanks for the post, some very interesting details there.

Neil
10-26-2005, 01:40 AM
Woah. The xbox 360 is gonna be fast?!

Thalaxis
10-26-2005, 02:04 AM
Woah. The xbox 360 is gonna be fast?!

It will be a great gaming platform. The graphics subsystem in particular is very impressive.

Joss
10-26-2005, 03:07 AM
Hmmm, so I wonder if it would be cost effective to crack open the console and use the chips in a new PC? :twisted:

Thalaxis
10-26-2005, 03:17 AM
Hmmm, so I wonder if it would be cost effective to crack open the console and use the chips in a new PC? :twisted:

Not likely. Standard desktop software won't run at all well on Xenon, and that's not even taking into account the fact that it isn't even binary compatible with x86 executables.

Hazdaz
10-26-2005, 03:28 AM
By the time the PS3 ships, multiple cores will be mainstream across the board, so most games in development now will probably be developed with multiple cores in mind.....

but one significant advantage that the XBox360 has is that XNA is designed to work the same way on PC's as on the console... so the lessons learned developing for one will transfer directly to the other.

I forgot where I heard/read this, but one of the fears that the XB360 developers are seeing is that multiple-core PCs were slower reaching the market than originally expected, so while a lot of the learning process could have been done (or was hoped to be done) on the PC side is now going to happen on the XB360 side, whihc means that those 3 pretty little cores might not really get used to their full ability as had been hoped. Somewhere I even was readin that many first gen XB360 games will be mostly using just the one CPU for most all processing, and lightly use another for more "remedial" things - like take care of the music or something along those lines.

I am SURE that will quickly change (and I can't wait to get my hands on the new console), but intersting how the realitively low penetration of multi-core PCs is affecting XB360 gaming.

Thalaxis
10-26-2005, 04:29 AM
I forgot where I heard/read this, but one of the fears that the XB360 developers are seeing is that multiple-core PCs were slower reaching the market than originally expected, so while a lot of the learning process could have been done (or was hoped to be done) on the PC side is now going to happen on the XB360 side,


There's another side of that also; the cores on the Xenon aren't particularly powerful by themselves, so the XBox360 developers NEED to use all three of them. Current PC processors have enough single-threaded performance that they haven't been a limitation yet.


whihc means that those 3 pretty little cores might not really get used to their full ability as had been hoped. Somewhere I even was readin that many first gen XB360 games will be mostly using just the one CPU for most all processing, and lightly use another for more "remedial" things - like take care of the music or something along those lines.


It probably won't be that bad, but it's doubtful that the first titles will really show what the console can do :)


I am SURE that will quickly change (and I can't wait to get my hands on the new console), but intersting how the realitively low penetration of multi-core PCs is affecting XB360 gaming.

Even if multi-core PC's were more or less mainstream, there's still a boatload of horsepower in them without exploiting the 2nd core, so it wouldn't have mattered. But because the consoles mandate multi-threaded code, we'll see the same gains on the PC platforms, only with a lot more muscle by the time the 2nd generation console titles start showing up.

Vertizor
10-26-2005, 03:45 PM
Not likely. Standard desktop software won't run at all well on Xenon, and that's not even taking into account the fact that it isn't even binary compatible with x86 executables.
Psst... PPC Linux ;)

Then again, I think it has been said that Microsoft has done everything they can to make sure the Xbox 360 is un-moddable, thus preventing Linux hackers from installing Linux onto it.

Oh I remember now... the plastic case itself is sealed, can't be opened. If something breaks down inside, they'll replace the whole system. Time to read up on that warrenty fine print...

Hazdaz
10-26-2005, 04:06 PM
the plastic case itself is sealed, can't be opened. If something breaks down inside, they'll replace the whole system. Time to read up on that warrenty fine print...

And since when has a sealed case stopped anyone? Hell that isn't even a deterant really. If the XB360 is really as powerful as they say, then dropping $300 for one that you plan to hack is chump-change really considering all the goodies inside. Hell that is way less than a new decent videocard - and for that money you get so much more.

It is all just a matter of time really.

Neil
10-26-2005, 07:25 PM
An interesting viewpoint that has never really been brought up on here (taken from The Escapist):

"It's a remarkable notion that Sega, who pulled out of the hardware market due to their inability to compete with the original Playstation, may quite seriously pose a threat to the PS3 and Xbox 360 with a fifteen year old games system - hardware that is affordable in a second world country which has spent the last three decades being ignored by the industry"

AdamHerbert
10-26-2005, 10:43 PM
An interesting viewpoint that has never really been brought up on here (taken from The Escapist):

"It's a remarkable notion that Sega, who pulled out of the hardware market due to their inability to compete with the original Playstation, may quite seriously pose a threat to the PS3 and Xbox 360 with a fifteen year old games system - hardware that is affordable in a second world country which has spent the last three decades being ignored by the industry"

What is the context of this quote? Are they saying the Sega Genesis has better equipment or what?

Neil
10-27-2005, 05:02 AM
What is the context of this quote? Are they saying the Sega Genesis has better equipment or what?

Not at all. You couldn't even attempt to justify that.
What they are saying is that everyone is over competing for power and gadgets and not caring about how much it ends up costing. 3rd world countries have gamers too and continue to be neglected and will so even more now that the systems are even higher. I dunno why Sega is their consol of choice, but it is, probably because of easy mod'ing and lots of games.

Tonedef
10-27-2005, 05:24 PM
300-400 dollars is no real change for the cost of a new system from back when NES came out even. So yeah it isn't affordable in 3rd world countries....but neither was the Sega when it came out.

Neil
10-31-2005, 01:32 AM
N64 launched for like $200 and i think the snes did too. That's a big difference than $400+.
You don't get any titles with it AND the controllers cost $50+. Even more for the wireless controllers. That is VERY pricey. And you know that pretty much everyone is gonna need to buy atleast 1 more controller at some point.
And I'm not just picking on 360, the ps3 could be even MORE. Dunno. I heard rumors of $99-200 for a launch price of the revolution though.

KayosIII
10-31-2005, 05:26 AM
Hmmm the article didn't give a lot of details and didn't tell us anything we didn't know
other than IBM is spilling the beans on Tuesday?

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/1

Gives a fairly detailed analysis of what the Xenon Processor is likely to be like. It will be interesting to see how close this one is

PhilOsirus
10-31-2005, 05:47 AM
Not at all. You couldn't even attempt to justify that.
What they are saying is that everyone is over competing for power and gadgets and not caring about how much it ends up costing. 3rd world countries have gamers too and continue to be neglected and will so even more now that the systems are even higher. I dunno why Sega is their consol of choice, but it is, probably because of easy mod'ing and lots of games.

Except no one is trying to sell flatscreen TVs in third world countries anyway. They don't see a market there worth putting money into.

KayosIII
10-31-2005, 06:24 AM
From what we can see both 360 and PS3 will be better at graphics but worse at gameplay code then what is current. It will be hard to know until the systems are released and games are actually shipping this will really be the case.

I am sure this link has been posted on CGTalk before - It was an interesting read anyways...
http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/03/burn_the_house_.html

Also http://www.experimentalgameplay.com/ looks interesting

phobos
10-31-2005, 06:52 AM
If I remember correctly PS3 will have 7 or 8 cores. Which will make things a lot more difficult. Sony has a history of making a programmers life a living hell. PS2 was difficult to program and the same thing will happen with PS3.
At the end I don't think that the games will take advantage of PS3's processor power. Gaming companies like to easily transfer games from one console to the other. If the game is not built with 7 cores in mind then they won't bother to take advantage of the 7core cpu. In my opinion, we will only see the full power of sony's console if a game is specifically being made with PS3 in mind. Which will probably not happen in the next few months. And on top of that we will have to add some time for the programmers to learn the new hardware. I guess that a year or so is not an unrealistic timeframe for PS3 centric games to happen. Which unfortunately will give microsoft the opporunity to grab a big portion of the gaming industry.

NanoGator
10-31-2005, 07:05 AM
Yesterday I saw an XBOX 360 at Walmart. I was disappointed. They were playing some FPS game that barely looked better than what we've already seen before. At least it ran at 60 fps, though.

It really has me scratching my head, though. I mean, it has several times more memory than the original XBOX, why didn't it have better textures?

Hazdaz
10-31-2005, 01:54 PM
N64 launched for like $200 and i think the snes did too. That's a big difference than $400+.
You don't get any titles with it AND the controllers cost $50+. Even more for the wireless controllers. That is VERY pricey. And you know that pretty much everyone is gonna need to buy atleast 1 more controller at some point.
And I'm not just picking on 360, the ps3 could be even MORE. Dunno. I heard rumors of $99-200 for a launch price of the revolution though.

You do realize that you are talking about $200 in the 1980's and 1990's versus $400 in 2005?!?

And actually according to a few inflation sites on the internet, $200 in the early 1980's actually does convert to almost exactly $400 in today's money. And I don't think that that is a coincidence either - these companies know what they are doing. The price of almost all home consoles have been kind of expensive (but not insanely expensive) at launch... just expensive enough for the company to pull in some initial money, but not high enough to scare away the 'early adopters' of high-tech gadgets.

Hazdaz
10-31-2005, 01:59 PM
Yesterday I saw an XBOX 360 at Walmart. I was disappointed. They were playing some FPS game that barely looked better than what we've already seen before.

Hasn't that been the complaint of people at the initial launch of EVERY game console generation ever launched?! .

The games almost ALWAYS look "cool, but not that much better". THen there is the one or 2 killer games that really shows the system off and everyone quickly forgets about the mediocre other games.

For the exactly reason that you mentioned - and also because of the price point that NEIL mentioned - I do plan on waiting a few months to get my XB360, cuz by then the price should have gone down some, while the quality of games should have jumped dramatically.

KayosIII
10-31-2005, 02:17 PM
If I remember correctly PS3 will have 7 or 8 cores. Which will make things a lot more difficult. Sony has a history of making a programmers life a living hell. PS2 was difficult to program and the same thing will happen with PS3.
At the end I don't think that the games will take advantage of PS3's processor power. Gaming companies like to easily transfer games from one console to the other. If the game is not built with 7 cores in mind then they won't bother to take advantage of the 7core cpu. In my opinion, we will only see the full power of sony's console if a game is specifically being made with PS3 in mind. Which will probably not happen in the next few months. And on top of that we will have to add some time for the programmers to learn the new hardware. I guess that a year or so is not an unrealistic timeframe for PS3 centric games to happen. Which unfortunately will give microsoft the opporunity to grab a big portion of the gaming industry.

It seems that the XBox Processor will share a lot of the strengths and weaknesses with the PS3. (xbox has 3 general purpose cores that will run two threads each - The PS3 will will have a single general purpose core capable of running two threads and seven specialised DSP style units). The General purpose cores will be almost identical. Very strong with streaming data but quite weak with branching code, with a lot of the modern processing niceties stripped away. Both will favour heavily parallel code. I think this may push game companies to produce parallel code in there engines sooner rather than later. I can also see that a company wanting to produce cross platform games is likely to purchase a license to a crossplatform engine.

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