Darktree**GREAT NEWS**Darktree

[Anadin]

Shame no Mac version :thumbsdow

[AdamT]

I think there will be a Mac version--at least of the Simbiont, but I'll let you know what they say.

[Anadin]

That would be fantastic. Boy would I love a shader system like that for SLA though.

[flingster]

plugins....plugins....downloaded this beta and looks fine...does this mean you could create your shader in the full version of darktree...then use all the feature set...save it....and then use the plugin (sym..whatever) part to implement in cinema? cos a lot of the other plugins seem to have limitations on their implementation of this feature set. That said it looks very nice and if better integrated would be a bonus on the workflow front to cinema users.

I don't think you can knock darktree for this as we are all forever complaining about third party development....however it does make you wonder why maxon having now bought SLA haven't developed its own product set...from what i have heard development on SLA is not top of the queue..(this obviously doesn't mean its dead by any means of course)....but surely if maxon don't have the time to carry on development in sla at present why don't they employ the original developer to expand its feature set?

That said Darktree and SLA both seem to have a very good and comparable feature set maybe they complement rather than compete....but that tree structure would be very nice....come on maxon "grow an almond tree":thumbsup:

[AdamT]

does this mean you could create your shader in the full version of darktree...then use all the feature set...save it....and then use the plugin (sym..whatever) part to implement in cinema? Exactly.

better integrated would be a bonus on the workflow front to cinema users. I agree. I wonder if there's some problem integrating 3d party shaders into the AM, since Maxon seems unable to do it and Darksim hasn't done it either (at least so far). I hope this is addressed by whoever it is that needs to address it (i.e., Maxon/Darksim).

That said Darktree and SLA both seem to have a very good and comparable feature set maybe they complement rather than compete True, though there's definitely an overlap. I'm glad I have both. Now I ned to get back into DT; haven't used it much in the last year since I switched to Cinema.

[flingster]

its wierd cos a couple of weeks back i visited darktree's site because i had heard good stuff about it....and "other" 3d apps seem to have this method of doing shaders which sounded a bit too complicated for my tastes but when i looked into its definitely the way to go (far more logical process IMHO).....unfortunately at the time i don't recall there being a c4d beta program unless i missed it....which was kinda disappointing....but if the feature set is retained then i'm all for it. very tempting me thinks!

have managed to crash it though....not a complaint as its a beta for god sake. basically i'm impressed and chuffed :applause:

[AdamT]

You can download a demo of the full product (PC only). It truly is amazing--one of the best-thought-out interfaces around, IMO. They also just announced a Renderman Simbiont, making DTs easily the most (only?) portable procedurals around.

[kiwi]

Nice gui those shaders :) ....it will be patented to hell though I would say.



flingster I think you will find SLA not being on the must do list as a result of not enough money to do everything they/we want them to do :D


Stu.

[Per-Anders]

unfortunately without a mac version as of yet it's not someting i'll be playing with for a while :(

on the side note, i totally agree with flingser on the thought that it would be in maxons own interest to hire Darf and Bhodi directly, or bring them on board or whatever to develop their things... i'm just thinking about all the cool things we hear about on the bhodinut forums... but then never see the light of day... ok some are to do with sdk limitations admitedly, but i know that often the response from bhodinut is "we can't justify taking this route or releasing this because of the logistics of teh situation" and i'm thinking in those cases... well, if they were on the payroll to just produce plugins then surely that wouldn't be the issue anymore would it? also wouldn't it take off some of the workload on maxons own programmers, so they can conentrate on the core application and SDK.

anyhow, i just think you're onto something there flingster. good idea :thumbsup: (although of course it would be up to darf and Bhodi as to whether they would even be interested in such a proposition if maxon were to ever approach them with that)

[AdamT]

It's a good idea in theory, but with all the history there I doubt either party would be interested.

[lllab]

is there a bad history between bhodinut and maxon?
i sometimes have the feeling there is something going on, but why?

maxon should be happy to have them...

stef

[AdamT]

I don't know the full story, but it's pretty unmistakeable that there's some bad blood there.

[H. Ikeda]

A very impressive plugin! Especially over one hundred volume shaders (and eyeball shaders!).
I misunderstood DarkTree. This can generate SLA-type channel and volume shaders, in addition to simple bitmap data.
All products of Darksim seem to be for Win, though mac version is supposed to be released?:shame:
(BTW, could you tell us the half story if you don't mind, AdamT?)

[flingster]

Has anybody got darktree2...and if so what is its documentation like?

[AdamT]

Has anybody got darktree2...and if so what is its documentation like? The documentation is very good. There's a 270 page paper manual that explains the interface and basic functions. It includes a number of tutorials. The individual components are documented in html help pages that you can access directly from the components' dialogues. This is certainly one area where DT puts BT to shame.

[H. Ikeda]

Really it has thorough manuals, but since the interface is self-explanatory and easy to understand, it may be enough to read just tutorials and Part3 of the PDF manual, I think.
The node-based editor is cool, reminding me of texture editor of Bryce (not connection type but tree-like) but the DarkTree editor is much more intuitive and easy to use (only checking demo).
"Tweaks" properties of the DarkTree editor become adjustable parameters in Simbiont shader plugin, which makes SLA-type shaders possible.
Below is an example of eyeball and rusted steel textures.

[flingster]

maybe easy for you bud....but these days i'm finding everything a bit of a steep learning curve....darn it.

i haven't downloaded the demo yet but have been having a play around with the old symbiot and tweaking/mod'ing some of the presets and it seems to work fine....not sure whether on a practical point that doing all the setup in darktree then save etc...drop into symbiot part to use in a scene is so practical...but then again its not far from what we currently do i suppose....but i am really tempted by it....i know what you mean about the bryce bit....similar but then again i could never get on with that either...i like the structure of it all really i think from a workflow and process point of view they look very sound....of course would need to take a better view than i have taken to give a half decent opinion. By the way dunno if any of you took a look on the darktree website cos there are a few links to preset to download from the site and of other sites...if the manuals are as sound as it seems then it is really tempting...anything to drop the steep learning curve at the moment is a bonus. thanks for posting info AdamT etc....

[H. Ikeda]

Well...what I mean is that understanding how it works is not so difficult, but I guess knowing how to get the new shaders we just want is probably still difficult even with the node-based editor. Although using the DarkTree editor we can make something new in an easier way than others, the DarkTree doesn't by itself teach us how to get the shaders we want. It's up to us and depends on our skills (sure I haven't).

Generally we can use a node-based interface with less difficulty than others, but it doesn't tell us how to get the thing we want. Difficult things are still difficult even with the node-based system, IMHO. It's likely that we rely on some experts who provide useful preset shaders, just like Simbiont shaders.
Node-based system such as BT, XPresso and DarkTree is cool and might be the trend, but it's not almighty. Of course a few people may begin using it, and it might help the experts.:)

[AdamT]

True, no matter how good the interface, putting together good-looking procedural shaders can be conceptually difficult. It does help to study good examples, which is one area where a tree-based approach helps. It's much easier to deconstruct an existing shader tree than it is to parse all the Fusion-connected components of an SLA material.

[flingster]

Yeah youre both right...from a learning point of view i think it is easier to pick up the concept though...like you say checking out an example and its makeup is easier to decontruct...thats how i manage to keep learning so much off these forums...because thankfully the experts are willing to share these files for the beginners to learn from.....now its really a question of being able to afford one thing for xmas....darktree....dynamics....jenna???? somethings gotta give....heh heh.

[H. Ikeda]

Hmm...I think a typical example is the Object manager itself. This is a sort of tree-based (one of the simplest node-based systems) and half procedural in the sense that we can reconstitute it in most parts. This has generators and filters (i.e., deformers). And still it can be difficult to get the objects we would want. Although we can understand how the modeling has been done, by glancing over the OM, in some cases we need many tutorials and/or comments for specific modeling.:shrug:

[flingster]

well i also agree the object tree is a very simple way of analysing a project it does give a clue to the way it was modelled....but not in any convention sense. however not sure really this is the intention either...at the end of the day it allows for easy navigation and management of objects really...if an object just had an object tag and everything else was then within the element it would slow the whole process down a bit. The one part of c4d i think could be majorly improved is modelling (IMHO). The question would then be how....workflow wise....toolset wise...probably both...then again no program is perfect...it maybe that with this new module based system we can buy with individual components that make up v8 say that maxon decide to release an advanced modelling module...personally that would be a shame i think but at least it would give us better toolset with improved workflow. Then again you've gotta count your blessings as i think workflow wise c4d is impressive....then again i did read in computer arts or 3d world can't remember which now that the interface needed a makeover! fools....room for improvement maybe...but come on against the competition....

[H. Ikeda]

It's a matter of modeling and a bit away from tree-based GUI or shaders, but IMO, the unpleasant modeling is mainly due to workflow, which consists of very small, little, tiny things, e.g., we'd like to deselect a point when click on a position where no object there, and we'd like to move a point or polygon just pressing down our mouse button, and we'd like to rotate a view without traveling our cursor to the edge of the view, and.... That is, the key to the problem may be a collection of those tiny things. :hmm:

[AdamT]

Originally posted by H. Ikeda
we'd like to rotate a view without traveling our cursor to the edge of the view, and.... That is, the key to the problem may be a collection of those tiny things. :hmm:
That's for sure. Cinema could make better use of mouse buttons/wheel. It was be very cool if you could rotate the view by, for example, clicking and holding the middle mouse button. Or, double-clicking the MMB centers the object in the active viewport (like trueSpace). Or, click-and-hold left and right mouse buttons to pan.

[flingster]

Oooh yeah i'll second that sentiment...

[Per-Anders]

i know... i'd like the maya shortcuts for rotation etc... but i think that the sdk doesn't allow for remapping of the keys (or any other explicit interface io stream functions such as which buton is pressed when) so it looks like that is purely thing that maxon will have to do themselves (if they choose to). i'd also like to see an integrated handle that has all three main functions on it... like the maya bevel tool, move, rotate and scale all on the one handle. Then an intelligent feedback like mayas handles, and also I'd like for there to be an option to keep the hands in the viewport no-matter what... i.e. if the object goes off screen, then it's axis handle stays on screen somehow, if you use it it still affects the object at it's axis, but you don't have to scroll the viewport till the object is in teh centre of the view to move ot, scale it, or rotate it. maybe the handle should change colour, and just keep to the side of teh screen where the object is, so that you know where to pan to if you need to see more of your object (should it be offscreen... so it's a great pointer when you're zoomed in also. anyhow i believe that owuld be possible for a talented third party to do. good handles make life so much easier. good workflow makes life so much easier.

[H. Ikeda]

Absolutely. As for the off-screen problem, maybe maxon says we can use "Frame Active Objects," though. But it's of two-step, selection and command. As such, the point is the minimum amount of key pressing, or the minimum distance for cursor's traveling. Our mouse cursor may be tired for a long journey in c4d modeling world... In R8 we have a context menu within a view, which can somewhat help us, but something like an integrated handle is cool.:)

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