Alternate heatsink for AMD necessary if not overclocking?

[Carnifex]

The heatsink that AMD packages with their retail processors is universally derided as being an utter piece of tosh.

If you wanna get a decent heatsink that's not gonna cost you a fortune, go for the Thermaltake Volcano 7. It's not the best, but it does a pretty good job and it's not gonna make you deaf.
It's perfectly capable of cooling my AthlonXP 2000+ Palomino running at the same speed as a 2100+.

And the Palomino core is hotter than the newer Thoroughbreds, not to forget that I am running mine at a higher Frontside Bus Speed than you will be.

Just don't forget to use a decent thermal compound. Remove the pad that comes with the heatsink and apply some good quality compound like was discussed in the other thread about cpu temperature.

[Carnifex]

Oh forgot to add, the thread in question is the "Why shouldn't use AMD cpu".

Can't miss it :)

[GregHess]

Thermalright AX7
Thermalright SK7
Thermalright SLK800

The SK7 will probably be the best bet for price/performance, as well as fitting most motherboards it mounts too.

Yes these are performance heatsinks. Yes overclockers use them...

So why am I recommending them for a normal consumer grade system? Noise.

These heatsinks are incredibly efficent and use 80mm fans. Because of that, you can run the rpm's much lower then a lesser priced, cheaper heatsink solution. This of course results in far less noise, and a happier end user.

The system I always use to building workstations...is to build a computer to overclock, and then don't overclock it.

[Gamma_Bomb]

Sound advice.

Will attaching a third party heatsink void the warranty? Also, the paste was Arctic Silver III wasn't it?

Thanks again.

[GregHess]

Amd actually advises you use a 3rd party heatsink in the retail manual. So no it doesn't.

Yes artic silver III was the past.

Though the url they used to have about how to apply it is gone.

[MadMax]

Greg, what do you use for thermal paste?

[Dj_Grfx]

Yes im sure AMD would package its processors with insuffecient heatsinks so that they would melt within a few uses, im also sure they recommend using other heatsinks that VOID their warranty on the processors, and im sure in the manual they actually state you might consider buying intel since they have all these faults. But it is also possible, just a possibility, very slight, that the advice your getting is completely moronic and that these "artists" should stick to being that and not give out pc advice. Come to an art forum for art help, goto a computer forum for pc help.

[GregHess]

I usually use artic silver III. Its pretty messy, but I work for the entomology department, so I have access to acetone, and all sorts of nifty chemicals for removing thermal pads, tape, old paste, you name it.

I just slap on some nice latex gloves, go to the fume hoods, and have a blast. Everyone thinks its pretty funny, but when the 2400+ XP is running at 36-37C idle, its worth the effort.

A gentleman on the forum also mentioned a new paste coming to the states, but its not yet available. I'll be sure to try it when it comes out.

I'd say though its debatable which paste is better, one thing is certain. ANY 3rd party paste is usually better then the crap that comes with the heatsink. Especially if the heatsink is using a thermalpad (Intel Retail HSF for example).

As to the amount to put on...I usually apply it wearing gloves (With my finger), then use a blockbuster video card to remove excess paste and smooth out the application.

[GregHess]

Dj_GFX,

Heh...What a good way to start using a forum. Start your posts by telling everyone their wrong and moronic. Nice job :).


"Yes im sure AMD would package its processors with insuffecient heatsinks so that they would melt within a few uses"

AMD recommends using a 3rd party solution. The Stock HSF's are pretty much known as crap to virtually ALL hardware/technical sites, as well as admin's and consultants around. Their basically based off an original coolermaster design and are all alumnium. They will run the chip, but temps will reach levels that will cause instability in extended tasks. (Such as rendering). Of course since the average consumer doesn't do anything more then open up word and IE at the same time, the stock HSF is probably sufficent. But its one of the critical replacement steps towards insuring a stable workstation.

" im also sure they recommend using other heatsinks that VOID their warranty on the processors, "

They do actually. And it doesn't void the warranty. In fact many sites will throw on an additional warranty on top of the retail warranty if you purchase a heatsink/cpu combo.

Here's their own installation/pdf manual.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/23986.pdf

You'll see on page 2 their recommendation to choose a heatsink from their approved list. (Aka not using the one that comes with the unit)

Here's a tech doc on system and processoring cooling...

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/cooling_guide.pdf

You'll see once again their recommendation to choose a heatsink other then the one packaged with the unit.

Now since this is primarily Tier 1 Information, lets add some 3rd party sources.

Here's an overall heatsink compaliation list by www.overclockers.com.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/

This has the C/W rating for a large variety of 3rd party heatsinks, as well as explanations and reviews on each one listed.

You'll note that all the way at the bottom is the AMD Retail HSF, with a C/W rating of .50. Reading further you'll find that this if pretty much an unacceptable level of cooling for a large portion of AMD's processor line.

http://www.frostytech.com

This site also has a very large compilation of processor heatsink information, as well as initial comparisons against amd's retail solution. I advise you look over this information carefully before phrasing your response.

I also encourage you to check out some forums at tech sites, such as www.hardocp.com, www.anandtech.com, www.2cpu.com, and even www.tech-report.com. I'm sure you'll find that virtually everyone agrees with these comments, and that one of the #1 recommendations for AMD systems is replacing that initial HSF which comes in the retail package.

If you'd like I could go and point out specific threads proving this point, or maybe just give you a phone # to call AMD directly so you can ask them in person.

" that the advice your getting is completely moronic and that these "artists" should stick to being that and not give out pc advice. "

I believe the correct term would be..."Read the forum before making yourself look like some sort of ignorant newbie."

"Come to an art forum for art help, goto a computer forum for pc help."

Unfortuantly most tech sites deal more in the performance of games then computer graphics applications. If you've visited a few of the CG sites, such as xbit labs, 3dluvr, or extremetech, you'll note that what tends to work well in a gaming system, doesn't always hold true for one being used in computer graphics. Because of that fact its actually better to ask those who actually work with the software on a daily basis, then some l33t hax0r kid with an overclocked celeron.

[Ckerr812]

DJ_GFX,

I would trust Greg over any of those other hardware forums. he's been giving advice to us artists on the internet community for years, and knows a hell of alot about what works for the apps we use.


Anywho- I have a question, I have never done this before so I wanted to ask about removing the thermal pad/or paste (because I have always put together brand new parts.

You touched base a little bit on how to remove this from the CPU and heatsink, but to someone that has never done it before, what would I need? After reading alot about this, I think I might want to get a new CPU fan and heatsink.

What do I need to remove the thermal pad/paste? is there anything special I need to do to watch out that I don't bugger up the cpu?

[Dj_Grfx]

First of all stop using reference documents dated back nearly 3 years ago, just because you knew something back then doesnt mean squat today. Secondly =Three (3) Year Processor In A Box Limited Warranty


"AMD warrants that processors sold through the AMD Processor in a Box Program, which have a "qualifying" serial number, when properly installed and used, will be free from defects in material and workmanship and will substantially conform to AMD's publicly available specifications for a period of three (3) years after the date the AMD processor was purchased.

If the AMD processor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty fails during the warranty period for reasons covered by this Limited Warranty, AMD, at its sole option, will: (1) repair the AMD processor by means of hardware and/or software; (2) replace the AMD processor with another AMD processor of equal or greater performance, OR, (3) if AMD is unable to repair or replace the AMD processor, refund the then-current value of the AMD processor.

THIS LIMITED WARRANTY, AND ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES THAT MAY EXIST UNDER APPLICABLE LAW, APPLY ONLY TO THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER OF THE AMD PROCESSOR, OR AMD PROCESSOR-BASED COMPUTER AND LAST ONLY FOR AS LONG AS SUCH PURCHASER CONTINUES TO OWN THE PROCESSOR.

Extent of Limited Warranty
AMD does not warrant that your AMD processor will be free from design defects or errors known as "errata". A description of the current characterized errata are available upon request.

This limited warranty does not cover any costs relating to removal or replacement of any AMD processor or any other cost associated with replacement for the AMD processor.

This limited warranty does not cover damages due to external causes, including improper use, problems with electrical power, accident, neglect, alteration, repair, improper installation, or improper testing.

This Limited Warranty shall be null and void if the AMD microprocessor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty is used with any heatsink/fan other than the one provided herewith.

How to Obtain Warranty Service
To obtain warranty service for your AMD Processor in a Box, contact your computer system manufacturer or distributor during the systems warranty period. After your computer system warranty has expired, you should contact AMD at (408) 749-AMD9 in the U.S. only, fax 852-295-63996 in Asia, and 44 (0) 1276-803187 in Europe. Please be prepared to provide: (1) your name, address, and telephone numbers; (2) proof of purchase; (3) a description of the type of boxed processor; (4) a description of the computer system including the brand and model; and (5) an explanation of the problem. The Technical Service Center Representative may need additional information from you depending on the nature of the problem.

Any replacement AMD processor is warranted under this written warranty and is subject to the same limitations and exclusions for the remainder of the original warranty period or one (1) year, whichever is longer.

Other warranty inquiries may be sent by e-mail to hw.support@amd.com, or by mail to AMD Warranty Questions, One AMD Place, P.O. Box 3453, MS 128, Sunnyvale CA 94088-3453. (Do not send the product to this address.)

WARRANTY LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS

THESE WARRANTIES REPLACE ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. AMD MAKES NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES BEYOND THOSE STATED HERE. AMD DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES SO THIS LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

ALL EXPRESS AND IMPLIED WARRANTIES ARE LIMITED IN DURATION TO THE LIMITED WARRANTY PERIOD. NO WARRANTIES APPLY AFTER THAT PERIOD. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS, SO THIS LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY
AMD's RESPONSIBILITY UNDER THIS, OR ANY OTHER WARRANTY, IMPLIED OR EXPRESS, IS LIMITED TO REPAIR, REPLACEMENT OR REFUND, AS SET FORTH ABOVE. THESE REMEDIES ARE THE SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDIES FOR ANY BREACH OF WARRANTY. AMD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR DIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES RESULTING FROM ANY BREACH OF WARRANTY OR UNDER ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOST REVENUES, LOST PROFITS, DOWNTIME, GOODWILL, DAMAGE TO OR REPLACEMENT OF EQUIPMENT AND PROPERTY, COST OF LABOR, AND ANY COSTS OF RECOVERING, REPROGRAMMING, OR REPRODUCING ANY PROGRAM OR DATA STORED IN OR USED WITH A SYSTEM CONTAINING YOUR AMD PROCESSOR. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS OR EXCLUSIONS MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
THIS LIMITED WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION. "

PARAGRAPH 7, READ IT, READ IT AGAIN, AND READ IT ONCE MORE
"This Limited Warranty shall be null and void if the AMD microprocessor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty is used with any heatsink/fan other than the one provided herewith."

Why do you think they give only a 30 day warranty with their OEM processors that they sell without heatsinks, and 3 year warranty on retail processors w/ heatsinks, i mean thats just commen sense.

The problem with people that think they are smart is that they think they are smart.

For your information i decided to post because i was a little flamboozled at the constant misinformation spread around this site concerning pc hardware. Present company included.



Good Day Sir


*PS* My Dual AMD non-overclocked system is running and rendering for weeks at a time without reboot just fine with the stock heatsinks since february. So are the other 11 Dual AMD systems i have built for local artists and designers in that time.

[GregHess]

For your information i decided to post because i was a little flamboozled at the constant misinformation spread around this site concerning pc hardware. Present company included.

I suppose your just the repositor of information in the technical hardware field then right? Its not everyday you just get random assholes coming in the forum personally attacking people who exist here solely to help others with your problems.

Thirdly, talk to your amd rep and ask them about the voiding warranty on using a seperate heatsink instead of just reading the warranty agreement. You'll note that they have individual agreements with some heatsink manufacterers which provide for an extended warranty WITH replacement of the retail HSF.

If you have a rep that is.

If you don't watch your personal attacks, your "3" posts will soon become your last.

Its pretty obvious that you didn't check ANY of the sites I listed.

You do know none of this would occured if you at least had some level of tact in your posting. A simple "Hey man, I think you made a mistake" would have had a much different effect. Getting called a moron after working with some of these companies for 5+ Years is quite insulting. And yes I'm pretty insulted. I consider it a personal attack.

I also seriously doubt the validity of any of your statements posted in regards to personal system building, and or clients/artists. Its easy to hide behind a nick and pretend to be all mighty.

[Ckerr812]

DJ_Gfx, maybe if you had some more time on this board, and helped out the way greg does, then maybe you would have some grounds to argue with, because right now I don't think that anyone can respect someone with less then 5 posts just attacking one the best posters on CGtalk.

Anyways, lets stop arguing cause it's pretty pointless, and lets answer my question 3 posts up :) ..hehe

[Dj_Grfx]

I would gladly end this if you would just admit you are in the wrong on this subject. Now you want to have me believe that i and the other members here should go talk to some people at amd and say "greghess sent us, he says you guys have super secret warranty rules that nobody knows about but him, even though you have them clearly printed and send them out with your processors and publish it on your website, in fact the secret rules are the exact opposite of the written warranty!!! Wow, you AMD guys are sure tricky. Maybe one day you guys will be as clever as greghess and be able to ask people if they have reps, now thats cool!"

I think im gonna go sue AMD, then when the judge points at the warranty, im gonna call my witness greghess, cause he knows some dude, thats a rep, and like he knows some stuff about secret warranty stuff......yeah, im sure i'll win.




Use a plastic scraper to remove the thermal pad, you dont want to use a razor that will scuff it up and make it uneven. Use a cleaning alcohol agent like isopropyl to remove the residue.

[GregHess]

There are a variety of ways to remove the old paste/pads.

Here's some instructions. (I finally found the url)

http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm

The methods I usually use, involve alcohol (rubbing) and acetone. Most people don't have access to acetone however. You have to be careful about using things like laquer thinner, because it can get trapped in some of the micropores in the heatsink/cpu and reduce cooling efficency. If you do have to use laquer thinner (paint thinner), make sure its a ventilated area (that stuff smells like hell) and use it sparingly. Some old Intel thermalpads (ones on the Pentium I chips) I couldn't get off with acetone and had to use paint thinner.

Btw the instructions on articsilver.com are a bit...er rediculous. Heh.

[Ckerr812]

Great, thanks Greg, that URL is exactly what I needed, gotta love instructions that are so detailed they tell you not to eat the thermal paste, it's right up my alley..hehe :)

[Gamma_Bomb]

There's no need for malice when correcting somebody unless you really, really, really want to be viewed as an a$$hole. I'm sure there's a dozen people out there that agree with you, and a dozen people that would agree with Greg. Not to mention the legions of others with their own unique perspective on the topic. You know what they say about a$$holes, they're like opnions...

However, I think Greg's just a tad bit more credible. Hell, if I had known that you were writing tech reviews over at 3Dluvr.com or another respectable website I would have come straight to you. He's an asset to this forum. Besides I've yet to see someone post anything calling for his castration because his advice led them to one calamity or another.

But I don't rule anything out and never go with just one person's advice, except for Gunnery Sargent R. Lee Ermy.

I'm not alone in building this system. My friend helping me out has been assembling systems since he was a wee-lad. He's got a few patents under his belt, and he's writing A.I. over at Georgia Tech. Not to mention he took rat brain's and had them play Quake (no lie). From his mouth came the words:

"No, it won't void the warranty. However you do not need another heatsink unless you are going to be overclocking. Unless you really want to spend the extra 30-45 dollars for one."

This isn't just an art forum. I seriously doubt all those great particle systems, phsyics, etc. were scripted by artists. Sure maybe some of it wask, lots of people don't limit theirselves to just one lot in life. But to come on a 3D board blatantly accuse of all involved as being dumb artists makes you look like a prick, and really doesn't do much for credibility even if you can copy/paste right out of a manual.

Its a great medium that serves as a merging point for two seperate ways of thinking and creating. The forum is wonderful asset to all those involved. This isn't about being right and wrong, or about who's more tech savy. Its about helping people and sharing ideas. With that said, use a bit of tact when posting.

Cheers.

[MCronin]

Despite all the info people have bothered to bring up here, the original question was "Is an alternate heatsink required if not Overclocking."

In my experience, no.

I have three AMD systems, all with stock heatsinks and fans. None are overclocked.

Athlon 750
Thunderbird 1333
XP 2200+

The 750 has no temperature monitor, but it runs fine.

The 1333 runs idle at 46 degrees and never goes above 57 degrees even when rendering for extended periods. I know this chip won't become unstable until it hits about 72. At one point I did have cooling problems with this system, but using a fine file to remove the old thermal paste from the CPU and heatsink, and replacing it with Arctic Silver solved it. It's been running good for a year and a half.

The 2200 runs idle at 43 degrees and never goes above 55.

All I did was use a standard heatsink and fan (they are branded thermaltake) peel off the adhesive pad and replace it with Arctic Silver.

At one point I got caught up in all this hype about cooling and tried a bunch of cooling systems. The Dragon Orb turned out to be WAAAAYYYY too loud, the Volcano 7 was loud ( i had to run it at the highest setting to keep the temp down while rendering) and it couldn't be properly mounted on my 1333 because of the way the board is made. I tried some other loud cpu coolers and eventually gave up.

Despite what any website or tech may say, the stock fans and heatsinks work fine for me. Just use some good Thermal grease instead of the stock pad, get decent airflow in your case, and you should be fine.

[GregHess]

"All I did was use a standard heatsink and fan (they are branded thermaltake) peel off the adhesive pad and replace it with Arctic Silver."

Is this the retail cooler? Or another heatsink? I don't believe AMD's retail sink is branded thermaltake. If anything its based off a coolermaster OEM design. Just curious.

I still argue that the default cooling is not sufficent for these chips. But like always, thats my personal opinion and based off of experiences I've had.

As for warranty discussions, I'm still awaiting replies from sources before I continue that debate.

"I tried some other loud cpu coolers and eventually gave up."

You might want to look at some of the 80mm Coolers mentioned from Thermalright. You can actually run them quieter then stock cooling, and still get lower temps. (This is of course if you run into a heating problem in the future)

[MCronin]

Gregg,

Yeah, the AMD 2200 I recently bought, came in AMD's official retail packaging (sealed plastic shaped like packaging for a PS2 controler), it has an aluminium heatsink and the fan has a Thermaltake logo on it. It's deffinitely not the Volcano 7+, it's something cheaper and non adjustable. It's pretty regular looking, not the thin copper design of the Volacno 7, but it's MUCH larger than the sink that came with the 1333. Maybe it was just some freak accident where AMD was low on stock and shipped a few chips with a different fan/heatsink combo; like MS shipping some Xbox's with a 10 gig drive instead of 8 or something.

I'm sure there are better cooling solutions available, I just wasn't happy with the one's I tried that were highly recommended by the various hardware gurus on the net at the time. The Dragon Orb was particularly bad. It knocked a whole 10 C off my CPU temp, but the thing sounded like a jet engine. I read all kinds of reviews raving about that cooler, but I don't know how anyone could spend more than 5 minutes next to a computer running one of those.

I was just adding my experience to the thread. He asked if it was necessary, and I don't really think so. I must admit I would have said yes, deffinitely get a third party heatsink and fan a year and a half ago when I was having problems with the 1333, but it seems to run pretty good now.

Maybe he should just go with the AMD parts, and if they don't keep his cpu cool enough, then shell out for something better. It's not like he can't open the case ever again once the computer is built.:)

[GregHess]

Yeah, the AMD 2200 I recently bought, came in AMD's official retail packaging (sealed plastic shaped like packaging for a PS2 controler), it has an aluminium heatsink and the fan has a Thermaltake logo on it.

Now thats pretty cool! Thanks for pointing that out. I don't think I've purchased a retail AMD chip since...well for a least a year. I wonder if amd has some sort of side deal that AMD has with thermaltake. Interesting.

Thermaltake responded that "Yes the warranty is voided" if you replace the heatsink, However they also point out that even replacing AMD's thermalpad voids the warranty, and that the heatsinks themselves by various manufacturers place their own respective warranties on the chips. (Aka voiding one warranty gets immediately replaced by another)

What I find most interesting however is the thermaltake logo on the retail cooler...in which case would lead me to believe that the warranty could extend across boundries of respective 3rd party heatsink manufactuers.

Thanks again for your opinions and comments, they're quite appreciated.

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