CGTalk - MAX/MAYA merger will kill LW (Assumption of course)

Maxx

10-05-2005, 12:33 AM

<JOKE>Also totally theory here - the point upgrades for 3DStudioMaya are gonna cost 2.7 million a piece, plus you're going to have to pay 4 thousand a year for the joy of actually using the product...</JOKE>

In all honesty, I think NewTek is now perfectly positioned to make great strides in the market. Let's face it - and I may be being all fan boy here, but hey - Lightwave delivers quality and ease of use unparalleled for the cost in today's market.

Max has some features that LW lacks, as does Maya. But both Maya and Max are missing out on some things that are givens for LW users. With 9.0 possibly right around the corner and the updates and upgrades listed so far in the communications, I personally think LW is in a stronger position to eat market share than ever before.

Totally random aside - I was just having a discussion with my wife about wholesale employee changes at a workplace - how usually it's a real bad sign that the company is about to go under when the "old school" at a software company all leave. My side to the opposite opinion was Newtek - when the old school left, people counted them out as dead. Newtek has managed to come back stronger and faster than ever before. It seems as though the shift has caused a focus that they hadn't known for a while now, and I personally am just fine with the direction the company is heading - LW has made me money in the past and stands ready to make me more in the future. For quite a while to come.

But then again, all of the above is speculation and personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt if need be. I will, however, say that my opinions absolutely are mine own and do reflect the opinions of my employer as I am my own employer and Newtek has been one of the companies that has made that a possibility.

Freak.

10-05-2005, 01:15 AM

Firstly the thread title is completley stupid, childish, and alarmist..

If you want to have a real discussion, at least try not to start the crap,
until you have finsihed the thread title.. :)

Autodesk bought Alias........ Max is not going to united or be integrating with Maya....
And if it ever did, it would be 3-5 years of failings of both products to do so....

And how is this differen't do LWers? It's not, there is still 2x competiting products.
And it really makes no difference...... However how Autodesk go about sharing technologies
and development costs, and roadmaps for the future, without impeding on their OWN products, shall be interesting.....

This will mean very little, except causing disruption for Alias and Autodesk....Shorterm..

Intersting to note, that Alias seem to of needed to be sold quickly.....
Seems it's revenus, were not spectacular, and expected to decrease.
(Maybe a downside of the Pricewars)

A private company, like NT, will never be able to compete round, for round with Avid or Autodesk, as they are both publically listed, and have very large pockets.

So the trick is not to, and keep doing what they have always done, despite
what the others do....

plotz

10-05-2005, 01:26 AM

IMO one overlooked issue is Alias' experiment in consumer pricing. This merger seems to be an indication of failure on Alias' part to really penetrate the mass market by lowering their prices and offering free learning editions of Maya. Clearly lowering their price alone didn't help them gain vastly more market share...or put a single competitor out of business. I might be wrong, but I think 3DSMax kept their price right where it's always been through all of this and it didn't hurt them.

Hopefully this merger will signal an end to these insane price wars that have been crippling the 3D market. It seems like most of the innovations in the last few years have been coming from smaller, more focused, companies. Pixologic, Sputterfish, etc. The big boys have been too busy trying to convince each other's users to cross over or to try and sell expensive software to the consumer market at a loss on the hopes that maintenance contracts and overpriced learning material sales would make up the difference.

I don't see how LW will suffer anymore under an "Aliasdesk" than they have been for the last few years. This merger doesn't offer anyone in the business anything they don't already have. LW will still appeal to a certian group of artists the way it always has. Maya and Max won't suddenly become any easier to use or more appealing. From a price standpoint I don't think you'll see Autodesk going bargain basement anytime soon.

Keep in mind that everytime something big like this happens people talk about some negative way it will effect their application. Historically very few of those predictions have ever come to pass. Many said LW was going to die when A|W lowered Maya's price. Many more have said it would die when XSI lowered it's price. Dare I say death by modo:) None of it has come to pass (yet) because none of these changes have offered the majority of LW users the reasons they need to cross-over.

There has to be a compelling reason to cause a mass migration from one software package to another. They've tried feature wars. They've tried price wars. Until there is a truely new "functionality war" (Ala the Maya 1.0 to 3 years) I don't think any of the players in this business will be hurt adversely by this.

telamon

10-05-2005, 02:22 AM

I want to say right now that speculation is fun and that's all anybody here can offer- speculation. If this thread gets out of hand I will close it very quickly.

wow red, bold, big size, the mod looks serious:surprised

My position is. It is a greenfield for Newtek. They have tires, gasoline, a road and 4 WD, up to them to go as far as accurately as they can.

LW will die if NT kills it.

splitpoint

10-05-2005, 02:25 AM

Personally I see this as a good thing for both NT and Avid. I think this merger is going to put Maya in development limbo for the next year or two as the aquisition is finalized.

It's pure speculation on my part but having participated in several aquisitions I've seen productivity go down and people leave the company being absorbed anough times to know that there will be a time of limited development activity. Enough time for NT to get LW 9 out the door and into the marketplace. If they don't screw it up by releasing buggy software, and if LW 9 is as great as they say it will be, this could be an opportunity for NT.

Al

Dragon_Lee

10-05-2005, 02:40 AM

Hmm I am unsure on how to look on this...
Some conjecture on my part:

On one end I can see/hope Autodesk now splitting MAX off into the Game/Architectural range, and keeping Alias for the "big boys"...

But perhaps they'll go the Maya ProFX / Maya MAX route ... shared technology bases with different GUI's but roughly the same target audience...
(or a "package" deal, where one can slowly build their basic MAX up to a full fledged MAYA over time)

For Newtek the first would be the best, it'd clean the middle-playing field for allround Lightwave ... the 2nd might not change much in the competition field, but might bring some confused (future) Autodesk customers over to LW...

When/if push comes to shove I hope Newtek will be able to keep to its planned development path for the LW9 series and not forced into a corner somehow...
(I do not want to see a "no more standalone but LW-locked-to-VT" kind of deal again ... can't really afford nor have daily use for a VT machine, discounting my dream to own one personally ;) )

Cman

10-05-2005, 02:48 AM

wow.
Can't get my jaw off the floor.

I think it will be bad in general for 3D, as eventually there will be fewer options.

But I don't think it will effect LW as NT has generally been LW's problem - though that seems to be changing with 8.3->9.0.

I'd rather see a cooperative agreement between NT and Avid than a merger.
IMHO, Avid has been slow to react to changes with their NLE and XSI. So merging with LW would not be good as NT is again becoming innovative.

cresshead

10-05-2005, 03:04 AM

i think the film and the games industries NEED a 'photoshop of 3d' and that both 3dsmax and maya for the near future will be around the main growth area will be that of standarising data to move between them...3dsmax and othe autodesk products already have VAULT to move to other autodesk products so we'll be seeing maya, studio tools and motion builder move into this area too.

photoshop still gets developed even though it's the main player in 2d pixel editing..and there's plenty of alternatives for 2d with painter, photopaint and many other 2d pixel editing apps...just as there is with 3d...the only difference is that there's no huge leader in 3d currently in all areas [print, film, tv, games, product design, etc.]
and that's what autodesk are doing...they want to be the leader in all areas.

plenty of room for the others though!

Cman

10-05-2005, 03:20 AM

That's a great analogy cresshead.

But seeing as almost everyone uses Photoshop, does that mean all the unending questions about "which app should I learn" are now answered?

Just as Photoshop is basically the only answer for 2D pixel pushing, will the 3D answer be 3dsmaya?

Will Lightwave become the photopaint of 3D?

Julez4001

10-05-2005, 03:20 AM

Firstly the thread title is completley stupid, childish, and alarmist..

If you want to have a real discussion, at least try not to start the crap,
until you have finsihed the thread title.. :)

Yet you replied.
Hmmm how does one take this. Is this sarcasm or a honest crit.
Assumption is in the title, not a factual statement. Notthrowing out crap so don't start.

Anyway I fear for Lightwave's marketshare. Its barely holding on to film (Serenity and the like) but
now it seems that they never get a sizable game maret share as Maya and Max (in my eyes) will swell in that market even more in years to come with just their separate assets.

If they decide to merge their apps:

AutoCad and StudioTools - not my arena but I see it coming.

Character Studio and MotionBuilder could merge into a killer character app.

Maya and Max merging to some super killer app
and they already share mentalRay which could become the standard renderer.
MayaFluids using Vray and all the other rendering engines could happen soon.
All of Max myraid of plugins using maya's mel architecture.
They already have solid SSS skin solutions.
Thats a lot of R&D they are packing if it all have one focus.

LW9 is suppose to fix a lot of old LW problems but what do you say to that.

Could LW stand to merge anyone or is it solid enough on its own in terms of R&D.

cresshead

10-05-2005, 03:45 AM

well i see lightwave as 'painter' not photoshop...!

painter creates hand crafted art
photoshop pushes pixels around with filters.......

both make pictures...good and bad ones...depends who's driving the app!

T4D

10-05-2005, 04:01 AM

Lightwave 9 becomes even more important to the future of Lightwave.

Hope it Rock :buttrock: if it doesn't ... :hmm:

Leebre

10-05-2005, 04:24 AM

I don't view situations like these as anything more than a maneuver by an extremely rich 1% at the top of the companies to become even more rich. Any corporate-manufactured statements about "adding value" or "providing better products" is utter tripe in my opinion. It's all about making more money at any cost to everyone else.

I don't think there even needs to be any speculation as to what the end result will be since we can easily find examples of the aftermath by looking to any other industry: EA Games, Wal-Mart, Enron, Microsoft, etc. Note that I am stressing the term examples and not saying "the exact same thing is going to happen to the 3D industry as what happened to the people working for Enron". I'm saying that there are common, degenerative consequences in any area of life where diversity is lessened and power is merged. And don't forget that the damage doesn't happen overnight. If it did we would probably learn from our mistakes. It's a slow poison. We are just now starting to see the effects of EA's aborption of nearly the entire video game market.

It won't all be bad, but it won't all be good either. Great work will still be produced on all fronts because ultimately, it's the human being behind the tool that matters. But it's the difference between watching a big-budget blockbuster and an "art house" film, the difference between Top 40 pop radio and indie music, the difference between a mom-and-pop and the corporate behemoth. For me, out of personal conviction, I'll stick with the little guy to the end.

Mylenium

10-05-2005, 05:38 AM

Totally Theory....
Not application wise but just marketshare.
This new force in the universe will kill all advertising and will dominate schools in training.
Autodesk dominates games and now film. There is anew beast to deal with.
Even FullSail is starting to teach (move) to Maya..errr 3DSMAX umm. 3DSMaya?
XSI and Lightwave, they gotta merge or Messiah/Modo/DeepPaint..something.

No, absolutely not. I think the opposite is the case. They will drive a lot of (ex-)Maya users toi other programs. Your comment about a necessary merger of the rest of the players is also presumptiuous. While I also think it would benefit some of the smaller companies, it won't happen. Anyway, it would only work under the assumption that e.g. all users need character tools (e.g. merge the current modo with Messiah), which is absolutely not true. I for instance do tec viz and rarely ever use any bones and such. There's a big market for print who absolutely need no animation whatsoever. and so on, and so on. So no, won't happen. A bad day for the industry, but we all have to hope for the best.

Mylenium

Limbus

10-05-2005, 08:53 AM

This new force in the universe will kill all advertising and will dominate schools in training.

I never understood why no 3D company is giving away their package for free to schools. I dont hink that they make much money with it but it would be good marketing for them. Alot of CAD Companys give away their software to schools for free or for a very low classroom fee and most of these packages are more exenisve than the common 3D package. Allplan from Nemetschek and Archicad from Graphisoft are free for schools.

In the case of this merger I think that Autodesk will try to get as much money out of Maya as possible and this means cutting down on R&D.

Florian

colkai

10-05-2005, 08:56 AM

Aww heck, if I believed it everytime someone forecast the death of LW, I'd still be using Povray.
My guess, LW will gain an even bigger footing in the "little studios" as the cost of the latest version of "Mayax Builder" becomes prohibitive for anyone but the big studios.
Let's face it, Autodesk were the only ones NOT reducing their prices lately. My money is still on Newtek. :)

kevman3d

10-05-2005, 09:46 AM

I suspect Autodesk will combine the Max / Maya technologies to create a new product, which will gain the catchy title M&M - M&M will have the most advanced Subsurface scattering system, capable of generating photorealistic candy-coating surfaces far beyond anything other applications are capable of...

The scariest part is this - My wife loves M&M's - Its this marketing ploy of using a catchy product name by Autodesk that will suddenly create an uproar across the planet, as Wives, widowed by the interference of LightWave in their marital relationships, see this product as the perfect replacement for their husbands infatuation with 3D.

Suddenly there'll be an upsurge in female 3D artists, feuds will ensue, and partners will become bitter rivals in the household, fighting over the workstations that were once the husbands domain. Pretty soon, the wives will realise the weakest point in their husbands defence is their dongle - The flushing of a million toilets will be heard around the globe, signalling the end as we know it...

I can't believe it... Oh God! Its all going to be over! :eek:

Darth Mole

10-05-2005, 10:27 AM

It's all about choice. Whatever Autodesk do to Max I won't buy it because it doesn't (currently) run on Macs. Whatever Autodesk do to Maya I won't buy it because I tried it, found it had an almost vertical learning curve, and went straight back to LW.

So this merger bothers me not one jot: AutoAliasDesk don't currently have a product I'm interested in buying.

I find the Photoshop analogy quite useful: Maya is pretty much the de facto 3D standard, but it's hard to learn and expensive - especially if you want all the bells and whistles. Likewise, many people would like to own Photoshop, but it's darn pricey if all you want is to remove red eye.

I think LightWave has a decent future, as long as NewTek maintains its focus, keeps on innovating, and absolutely ensures that the days of half-finished buggy software have gone - period. LW has a poor reputation at the moment, and this won't go away overnight.

But as long as LW remains a viable alternative to maya and 3DSMax, then I see no reason why it shouldn't maintain a user base big enough to support the application.

Julez4001

10-05-2005, 10:35 AM

My whole caveat for this thread is just R&D of tools.

Maya always had one leg up with some advanced tool set: PaintFX and Fluids .
Max always had a huge plugin arena from everything to volumetrics to sss to various type sof rendering engines.

If a new app is form, will Newtek be able to keep up with innovations. For example, it seems that updating HyperVoxels is a chore and its the only solution for volumetrics. Not that they will never get to it but it seems to take them longer for core advancements.

toonafish

10-05-2005, 10:39 AM

Someone who has inside information and I can really trust told me Max & Maya are going to merge into a completely new 3D app that will revolutionize the industry !!

check it out:ftp://3d:nda@213.84.18.200/ndsas3.jpg

erikals

10-05-2005, 12:37 PM

Actually I think this might make LW stronger, if LW keeps the low price that is.
Also I think LW has a great future, I wasn't all exited about LW 6.5 through 8, but I have a feeling things might change. As long as NewTek takes a step back from their earlier quote, which in my opinion sounded like an application for hobbyists/freelancers. I belive LW can be much stronger than that. My suggestions to LW now would be to go for 3Dpaint and more advanced dynamics/ fluids +improve modeler and fix some things in layout. Ok, +ability to make muscle simulation. Well, that's my suggestion :)

As for Maya, I felt it fell behind ever since 5.0, it looked more like small upgrades. (As for SFX possibilities that is). Fluids+PaintFX is and was great though. I just couldn't justify the price.

MooseDog

10-05-2005, 01:57 PM

tim jenison and newtek were born out of a dedication to the artist, and have maintained that focus overall (despite lots of mistakes along the way, but who's perfect?). that focus, along with the release of 9 in the next six months sometime, will make a very positive impact on their sales, their marketshare in many different markets, and the different markets' perception of lw overall in terms of innovation, ease of use and dedication to the artist. my .02$.

nimble and aggressive always wins out over bloated and bueraucratic.

PetterSundnes

10-05-2005, 02:04 PM

LW seems to be the #1 choice to studios who needs something up and running fast, and I think that is why so many TV shows are using it. Its limitations are sometimes its strengths, as is the same with ShockWave3D. Having boundaries in the tools being used is to me a blessing, as I am doing both graphics and programming, I dont have the time to do superdetailed normalmapped 3D models and program complex shaders. I would like to see NewTek promoting LightWave more as a poly modeler and animation package for games and realtime 3D in general. LightWave + Macromedia Director is dynamite regardless of any limitation they might have.

So in a world with apps such as 3DSMax, Maya and XSI, or just one behemoth 3D Studio Maxsia, there will always be a need for something like LightWave (as well as C4D and other "small" but great applications).

EDIT: I forgot to mention, with LW's new pricing I am thinking about getting another liscence for private use, as the one I have now is owned by the company I work for.

Leonardo Vega

10-05-2005, 02:20 PM

Peter: Limitations are never blessings, ease of use is :) Lightwave's ease of use is great (as soon as I got it, I was creating). And if you don't have time to make normal maps, then don't :) People who use Maya, Max, XSI and don't have time, don't either. But to have the option to do so, is a blessing. When a BIG project begs for one of these features... that's when people start to focus on other apps. Newtek should never sell themselves short... keep ease of use in mind, but they must continue to expand and keep up with technology. If not then they will join the Animation Master club.

As far as games, games are becoming so sophisticated, that LW *needs* to be on the cutting edge to provide the tools necessary to make the best games.

Anyway, it would only work under the assumption that e.g. all users need character tools (e.g. merge the current modo with Messiah), which is absolutely not true. I for instance do tec viz and rarely ever use any bones and such.

I disagree. Since everyone has DIFFERENT needs a company needs to try and fullfil as many of those needs as possible, unless they just want to target a specific audience (which I don't believe is Newtek's goal). ArchViz is not a big part of LW, so would you agree that they should not work on tools to help out ArchViz users or merge with CAD developer to expand LW's tools? Since not ALL users need it? A smart company like Autodesk, will try to fill in the gaps. Lightwave is not a CAD program or a flying ship animator... it's an all-in-one 3D solution. At this point it falls behind in a few areas.

So if they merge with Messiah, they would fill in the CA gap and compete better. If they buy LWCAD and make it standard, they will compete better. Etc.

Price is a big factor, but when the tools simply aren't there... the customers aren't there. And you often hear, "we can not work on all user's needs at one time" from companies like Newtek... this is when buying outsiders who are experts in a certain area where the current app lacks is a benefit.

Go to Maya's forum and the main reaction is negative to the merger and most of them are actually flocking to XSI. Don't think anyone mentioned LW. So price isn't everything (although Foundation is actually cheaper than LW).

I personally like all 3D apps, I see each app's strengths and weaknesses. So my opinion is completely unbiased.

My 2 cents...

- Leo

p.s. Offering a 64-bit version and unlimited render nodes was a smart deal from Newtek, :applause:

PetterSundnes

10-05-2005, 02:46 PM

erikals

10-05-2005, 02:56 PM

Peter:....As far as games, games are becoming so sophisticated, that LW *needs* to be on the cutting edge to provide the tools necessary to make the best games.

I wonder if 3D graphics for games and 3D graphics will merge more together in the future, as it looks now, with PS3 who supports great fake SSS, it really is something to concider for LW's future.
Go to Maya's forum and the main reaction is negative to the merger and most of them are actually flocking to XSI. Don't think anyone mentioned LW. So price isn't everything (although Foundation is actually cheaper than LW).
Yeah, but still, XSI to me seems like a plug-in to LW. Or the other way around. I feel Foundation is an insecure way to go, as it wouldn't surprice me if Softimage either decides to raise the future price for Foundation, or dump it. And what happens if one wants to upgrade to the full version of XSI?, u'll need a lot of $$

....unlimited render nodes was a smart deal from Newtek, :applause:
Hehe, yeah, it is. I wonder how many that use it though... Not me :) Anyway, nice to have I guess.

tufif

10-05-2005, 03:28 PM

telamon

10-05-2005, 03:31 PM

Sorry mates, your opinion and speculations sound to much like freelancer point of view. 3DS Max and Maya are not freelancer products basically. Their pricetag is too high for freelancers except Maya Complete.

I would like to complement my words on the main CGTalk thread. That economic action was a super deal not for Maya but for Studio Tools. Autodesk does not care of Maya. Maya is a small beep in a fuss. Autodesk's main product Autocad is dead. 2D CAD is dead in a few years. Autodesk owns a middle-class expensive 3D Solution called Inventor. Inventor runs on a core which is shared by Solidworks which is a much better and a much more reliable package than Autodesk's solution. Autodesk had to prepare future. They had to grow and propose an alternative. As long as they share the Solidworks core, they would die. Studio Tools was one of these alternative options. They bought a complete software $182m and in 2 years, they will get $500m/y with it. Autodesk's annual cashflow is $1b, that gives an overall view of the size of the CAD Market.

OK now back to Computer Generated Imagery... The Max / Maya "merging", I do not believe in it. To be frank, I believe Maya will be sold soon after Autodesk will have swallowed Studio Tools.

My demonstration:
Most of the BIG studios are more concerned by the pipelines than by the Modelling/Texturing/Rigging pieces of software. The main investment is the pipeline. Do you think that a big studio like Dreamworks, ILM or WETA will switch to anything and re-invest million dollars to set-up a XSI pipeline or a (Kiss) Mayax(*) pipeline? I don't. Therefore, Maya is still needed on the market for at least two years. Therefore, Autodesk has to keep it in its catalog as well as 3DS Max which is the pipeline of bigger more cash-making clients like EA Games or Blizzard.

Sooooo, Autodesk will have to maintain and feed the two giants... Furthermore, I am certain that part of the Alias top-crew will leave because working in such a big company as Autodesk is not really interesting and they will probably loose influence (number 3 at Alias will become number 21040305244 at Autodesk). Imagine our situation if Vaughn, Deuce, Baker, Ben Vost leave Newtek. We will become a bit less tolerent, certainly more on our guards. That is the future that Autodesk will have to cope with in their relationship with big studios. Perhaps they will invest, reassure the studios and ensure proper relationship. They are capable of doing it. They do it quite well with the Inferno/Flame solutions. But Maya is not a $ 500k solution like Flame. Is it worth being supported similarly, considering the big userbase and the variety of feature requests.

My position is that Autodesk will never be able to re-create the client-customer relationship that Alias had with big studios. I am also sure they will not go far in the investment for this. So, they'll have two solutions: the brutal one - remove Maya from the market and the smooth one - swallow everything (resources, patents, technological secrets) that would be useful for Max and sell the skin of Maya to anywhom willing it.

My speculation: I think the second option is the most probable. Autodesk will pump everything from Maya, sell the dried skin to anywhom (a software company like Adobe or, who knows, a consortium of studios). They'll get money anyway because they will keep the patents...

photoshop still gets developed even though it's the main player in 2d pixel editing..and there's plenty of alternatives for 2d with painter, photopaint and many other 2d pixel editing apps...just as there is with 3d...the only difference is that there's no huge leader in 3d currently in all areas [print, film, tv, games, product design, etc.]
and that's what autodesk are doing...they want to be the leader in all areas.

Photoshop development has been very slow since R7... They pick up money every single year for a few filters and new interface tricks. I do not consider photoshop as an example of a constantly evolving app. I will say it is an evolving App when we'll get the so-waited filter layers.

Having a $ 5k leading package changes nothing in this fussy market of 3D imagery. Because, one of the big problem of the merging is that we'll have to forget Maya Complete @ $ 2200. In the much bigger market of 3D CAD, there are dozens of leading middle-class apps like solidworks, pro-engineer, inventor, PDMS. The competition among those is a good thing. When 2D CAD was ruling, we had few alternatives to Autocad and we used to pay k$ for ridiculous improvements.

(*) Kiss Mayax is a joke patented by Nicholas Boughen. Please read it quickly, I have to give him back tonight.

morimitsu

10-05-2005, 03:33 PM

Well, maybe Lightwave may shrink a little bit the market share.
But it WILL survive.
Take a look at Real 3D. It´s still alive even if there is a very small market share. Isn´t it unbelivable?

habañero

10-05-2005, 04:53 PM

Some great use of font in this thread! :grin:

I think it is safe to say that this isn't good news to either max or maya users. Both houses are in front of an expensive process that will have large costs both in dineros, lost productivity, and possibly will mean that customers' investment in training, customization and expertize will be made void. Now who do you think will have to pick up the tab? The private jet crowd? :)

Great amount of uncertainty too for the shole supply chain from hardware to plugin to resellers to studios, hard to see this as an advantage for either app.

I believe it could mean more competition between the two of them rather than less, if they are competing for an internal pot or resources in addition to market share. Also, that they will focus more on taking customers from eachother than from the rest of the apps.

I think that a merger of the two packages would not be cheaper than writing a totally new app, which is what I would expect them to do. A la adobe making the quark killer indesign, putting pagemaker (eg max+maya) in the corner. Don't think either the organisations or the code base are compatible, though I might be wrong, just my impression. Anyway I believe the users will feel the cost of this way before the larger benefits arrive, playing into the hands of LW, Xsi etc, quite disagree with the thread starter.

leigh

10-05-2005, 05:09 PM

Maya always had one leg up with some advanced tool set: PaintFX and Fluids .

Do you HONESTLY think it's PaintFX and fluids that make Maya popular in high end use? Wow.

erikals

10-05-2005, 05:33 PM

Do you HONESTLY think it's PaintFX and fluids that make Maya popular in high end use? Wow.

Maybe not, but it didn't exactly hurt Maya IMO :)
A lot of the questions about 3D progs is what CAN you do with it. Well, from what I know Maya fluids is better than anything else. There's a lot of factors.

leigh

10-05-2005, 05:37 PM

Julez4001

10-05-2005, 05:45 PM

erikals

10-05-2005, 05:47 PM

It just astounds me that people can have such misconceptions about packages.

I've been using Maya professionally for about 2 years now and have NEVER used PaintFX. Most of the people I work with do not use it either. It is most definitely not one of those features that people buy Maya for. It remains the de facto standard in the film industry, in particular, largely because of its scriptability (MEL), and its Renderman port. Of course things like its animation tools and FX (fluids, etc) are good too but PaintFX? Come on. I am not saying that no-one uses PaintFX, but it's hardly one of Maya's major selling points.

That's what we are here, to discuss :) I never knew MEL and Renderman support was what made Maya big, from what I saw from the LOTR making of videoes it was more about special effects. But I'm not gonna say too much more, I'm basically a hobbyist, so I guess I'm just shooting out opinions. :)

artmann

10-05-2005, 05:52 PM

wow. jaw dropping stuff.
the way i gathered is that the maya users that are most upset. and they should be. imagine autodesk running your show. coming from a 3ds / maya background, really detesting 3ds, i can only give the maya community my sympathies.

like one manager of alias stated a while back, "they just don´t get 3d", discussing alias new innovative technologies contra discreet´s. i can only add: and they DON`T CARE either.
autodesk is like IBM used to be. spooky stuff...

i could go on and on how they mistreated 3ds "development".... like sacking the guy who wrote their new particle tool, oleg, before he was finished with it! he is developing stuff like fragmentation as a plug-in developer he he. at some point they just sacked half of the development team....(!) expect no more or less in the future from autodesk either...

stupid stupid thing to do. competition is good for the industry. i can only hope some of the core programmers from alias and duncan himself leaves and what would autodesk have gotten then?

i am carefully optimistic for newtek and softimage though.
they got theirs going.
now it is necessary to gain more market shares. develop! promote!
autodesk insane european pricing politics will only add value for newtek´s products for european users.
there will be a couple of years now when maya and max will be in status quo mostly, before autodesks next gen app is presented.

i say newtek try get hold of some of the unstable market... like... NOW
you can´t stop the migration to softimage.... but hey newtek can fight for some, anyways...

i guess luxology´s and autodesk´s products will be on par in 2 years.... a version 1 of some cg software...

leigh

10-05-2005, 05:58 PM

That's what we are here, to discuss :) I never knew MEL and Renderman support was what made Maya big, from what I saw from the LOTR making of videoes it was more about special effects. But I'm not gonna say too much more, I'm basically a hobbyist, so I guess I'm just shooting out opinions. :)

Weta pretty much rewrote huge parts of Maya for their own needs for LOTR. That's the attraction of Maya, and the reason why you often see (somewhat misguided) people saying that "you have to be a programmer to use Maya". While Maya is a very capable package on its own, that anyone can learn to use, most high end studios in the game and film industry use a LOT of proprietary tools as well. Maya's MEL scripting allows programmers to access every level of Maya right to its core, enabling studios to truly tailor Maya to their needs. This is why you always see the word "pipeline" being bandied around so much - studios build their pipelines around certain packages, writing custom tools that make their software work for them.

It is because of this that many Maya users are probably upset about this news. Studios who have spent years and a lot of money developing their pipelines around Maya now face a slightly uncertain future. I know I am not particularly happy about it.

MEL and Renderman are both important things in the film industry (I am focusing on the film industry simply because that is what I work in - I am fully aware, of course, that there are many other industries too. However, Maya's main field of domination is film so...). Like I said, of course there are other important features in Maya as well, but my main point was that PaintFX is a somewhat gimmicky thing that is definitely not a huge important feature.

artmann

10-05-2005, 06:00 PM

It just astounds me that people can have such misconceptions about packages.

I've been using Maya professionally for about 2 years now and have NEVER used PaintFX. Most of the people I work with do not use it either. It is most definitely not one of those features that people buy Maya for. It remains the de facto standard in the film industry, in particular, largely because of its scriptability (MEL), and its Renderman port. Of course things like its animation tools and FX (fluids, etc) are good too but PaintFX? Come on. I am not saying that no-one uses PaintFX, but it's hardly one of Maya's major selling points.

very true, but then, it has been widely used in tv ads and stuff, like in that levis ad where a boy and a girl runs, braking through through walls and stuff, that ad used a lot of paint fx in it and in the latest issue of 3dworld mag there was a feature about a london company who used paint fx for the fur of a buffalo, can´t remember the name of the company as i type was it framestore? anyways i have seen real beutiful stuff done with it too, albeit not in film that i know of

but you are right.
btw has anyone thought about what will happend to renderman? man...

Julez4001

10-05-2005, 06:03 PM

It is because of this that many Maya users are probably upset about this news. Studios who have spent years and a lot of money developing their pipelines around Maya now face a slightly uncertain future. I know I am not particularly happy about it.

MEL and Renderman are both important things in the film industry (I am focusing on the film industry simply because that is what I work in - I am fully aware, of course, that there are many other industries too. However, Maya's main field of domination is film so...). Like I said, of course there are other important features in Maya as well, but my main point was that PaintFX is a somewhat gimmicky thing that is definitely not a huge important feature.

You are so right, Leigh! Sorry to categorize maya featuresets into just paintfx and Fluids.

Disney's version of Maya was on display at Siggraph and I couldn't even recognize it.

ummmm
www.alias.com (http://www.alias.com/)

Is it me or the Alias banner gone on top of the site.

3DDave

10-05-2005, 06:17 PM

Anyone who say's 2D is dead does not work in the field of engineering as I do.

2D is still the life blood of design, manufacturing and assembly/building. 3D solid modeling solutions are used by a small percentage of companies as compared to 2D solutions. Even 3D solid models end up on a 2D piece of paper for manufacturing and assembly.

Solid modeling costs are around $6000 per seat plus $1500 per year for maintenace, where as a copy of AutoCAD can provide a decade of use before really needing an update.

The only reason Max was brought into Autodesk was for 3D visualization of architectural designs and grew from there when there was a market for 3D animation.

Going forward I believe they are going to tailor Max to architectural work and continue with Maya/Motionbuilder for animation.

Lightwave and others will probably benefit from merger uncertainties. I know I am no longer interested in keeping up with Motion Builder now that it is going to be maintained by Autodesk.

Hopefully Newtek sees this as an opportunity and pushes hard to continue to improve Lightwave.

telamon

10-05-2005, 06:45 PM

I will tell what I know best: French market which is often at the trailing edge of engineering.

I run an engineering company in the nuclear field and I confirm here that we have completely stopped any 2D Engineering. All our clients want 3D product. Most of the nuclear facilities are designed using Solidworks. French nuclear power plants have been designed using PDMS from Aveva.
Cars at Peugeot and Renault are designed using Catia. The whole car assembly is done with Catia.
Planes are designed using Catia.
Oil refinery are designed using PDMS.

Subcontractors always use the software used by their main client (that is why I have both Solidworks and Pro-Engineering).

Concerning civil works. Typical large structures are designed using 2D programs but Catia is often used for complex mechanical structures like bridges or articulated steelworks.

2D is dying here.

3DDave

10-05-2005, 06:50 PM

Agreed, design is moving to 3D solid modeling but 2D drawings still hold there own because of the need for notes, tolerancing, BOMS, ect.

telamon

10-05-2005, 07:00 PM

ho sorry... From that you are quite right 2D Drawings are still a reference and, I think, will remain such during decades. Though now with e-drawings, tolerances and things like this can be noted as keynotes on the 3D objects and shipped to subcontractors.

PetterSundnes

10-05-2005, 07:02 PM

I just ordered LW for myself now, so atleast I have done my part in keeping LW alive, being responsible for 2 LW orders in 1 year :) but this has nothing to do with any "crazyness" going on with the Alias/Autodesk merger. I don't think this merger will affect LW in any negative ways, unless behemoth Autodesk decides to do what Microsoft does with the xbox, sell with loss to gain market share. They are big and wealthy enough to do so, but I dont think they would do that. Why should they, 3DS Max sells, and my collegue at work using 3DS, has bought 3DS himself personally and upgraded atleast once, and the upgrade price is the same as what I just paid for a full LW liscence and Vue 5... so there are freelancers using Max and Maya too, despite their cost. If one project alone bring in up to 5-6.000 us$, then there isn't much truth in "its too expensive"

To be honest, I am just afraid of having my current pipeline for interactive 3D broken. I have optimized my freelancing around LW and Director, so now I have both and feel comfortable with that. Just recently I only had Director personally, and LW at work, so if I quit my dayjob I wouldnt be able to do any freelancing with LW involved.

If only Macromedia would lift their curtain on what they are doing together with Adobe, I would be a very happy LightWaver and ShockWaver. No matter what the future brings for LW and ShockWave3D, I will continue to use LW/SW3D as it is, for a long time. If there is a new SW3D format coming out from MM/Adobe, then I will definately poke NewTek to update their exporter accordingly :)

RobertoOrtiz

10-05-2005, 07:18 PM

Guys thanks for posting some really good comments on the thread.

-R

calilifestyle

10-05-2005, 07:30 PM

I like to point out that Autodesk buys thing, they bought 3ds they even got most of there add-one to C.A.D by buying and making them work good with there line of work. Now to point out that they might have not droped the price of max. version 6 i think they add CS as part of the buy. CS was 2000 plug-inn and Reactor was included after version 4 so that was 1000 plug-in so they might have not droped price of max u sure get more for the same price. dont forget that the drop the price of Combusion. i mean this must poitn in what diretion they may go with maya if u look at Audodesks History.

telamon

10-05-2005, 07:37 PM

Well, maybe Lightwave may shrink a little bit the market share.
But it WILL survive.
Take a look at Real 3D. It´s still alive even if there is a very small market share. Isn´t it unbelivable?

I'd like to have any non-official off-record speech from any NT executive. OK, Maya with Autodesk's crushing marketing power can be very dangerous. But as I said before, I do not believe Maya will completely survive the swallowing of Alias by Autodesk. Big studios will remain on their current tracks before to make any costy decision. The only floating and potentially mobile part of the userbase is the freelance people and the small studios. IF Avid implements a "competitive" upgrade strategy like last year, this will work definitely. The same for Newtek with LW9 who knows.

This group of Freelance people as well as the handful of very skilled programmers back on the market (from Alias, subcontractors and plugin developpers) will be very profitable for Newtek, Maxon and Avid.

If LW9 comes on time and is as powerful as pretended, I am sure LW will increase its market.

If LW9-10 core is as opened as planned, we could expect some plugins initially specific to Maya could be developed for Lightwave. Mmmm the Syflex for Maya team working on a Syflex for Lightwave... Mmm a Maya Muscle plugin ported by the same team to LW...

Let us be positive :buttrock:

c-g

10-05-2005, 07:38 PM

It just astounds me that people can have such misconceptions about packages.

I've been using Maya professionally for about 2 years now and have NEVER used PaintFX.

But then there is the misconceptions that the world may start and end with you and your work. Not a flame, just pointing out that if you don't use them that doesn't mean others don't. There are too many posts in too many threads that people make a statement that seems to be written in stone that blankets the industry. If no one used it, you wouldn't see interviews where people are, well, using it. We aren't seeing feature films done in paintfx but I bet you there are matte paintings that started or are partly paintfx.

Dragon_Lee

10-05-2005, 08:00 PM

Telamon, I quite agree with your posts...

AutoCAD is dead (imo its been dead a long time ... the killing blow was indeed when Solidworks came out, I've seen it happen)
Actually AutoCAD was on Lifesupport ever since ... Lifesupport in the sense of angry company executives, working in Solidworks was SO much faster that often they had to keep an AutoCAD structure alive just to be able to keep charging for the same amount of hours as if they were using AutoCAD only...

But I always assumed that by now Autodesk had found a new product more like Solidworks (I've been out of the CAD arena a few years now), guess it didn't, not counting Inventor which seems to be quite a lacklustre product...

Now I can see more a like of grabbing up Studio Tools and building a strong opponent to Solidworks and company, to get Autodesk's core business back on steam...

I'm not sure which party would be the receiving end of the buttkicking tho, MAX or Maya ... can see it going either way, MAX being sold off to a 3rd party, or Maya/Alias ...
Autodesk would definatly eat up all the patents and tech from Alias before chopping off any tentacle.

How it stands for Lightwave now? Hmm might be good if a competitor is drained of life and then sold off, whoever buys it will have a hard time growing something out of it...
(case in point, the once popular Bryce ... its around but it seems to have been hurt hard by changing hands repeatedly)

I honestly hope it opens up more avenues for Newtek to wedge itself into :)

leigh

10-05-2005, 08:18 PM

But then there is the misconceptions that the world may start and end with you and your work.

Perhaps you didn't read a few sentences beyond that where I also mentioned that most of my colleagues don't use it either. And if you'd read a post or two beyond that you'd see I also mentioned that I am, of course, writing this all from my OWN experience.

By no means did I suggest that "the world may start and end with me and my work". How about reading all my posts before latching onto one little sentence to nitpick about.

erikals

10-05-2005, 10:16 PM

....If LW9-10 core is as opened as planned, we could expect some plugins initially specific to Maya could be developed for Lightwave. Mmmm the Syflex for Maya team working on a Syflex for Lightwave... Mmm a Maya Muscle plugin ported by the same team to LW....
Let us be positive :buttrock:

A bit off topic

(from NewTek Discussions)
If you would like to see the Syflex plugin ported to Lightwave, please e-mail Gerard:
gerard <att> syflex <dot> biz

They are in the process of writing a port, but I'm told they have it on the back-burner unless enough 'Wavers hassle them!

Now u know what to do... :)

R-6

10-05-2005, 10:26 PM

With the 3D market of Hobby and Freelance Artists growing,Newtek should do fine as long as there are people who can't afford Autodesk or refuse to pay their premium prices.
Of course there will be studios that will keep using Lightwave or buy Lightwave if it can do what they need it to do.
There is no way I could afford the price of MAX and it's updates .But with Lightwave a mere Hobby Artist like myself ,can afford ,learn,create and enjoy 3D with minium outlay.:thumbsup:

telamon

10-05-2005, 10:31 PM

@erikals, I remember this :D it was one year ago :D

erikals

10-05-2005, 10:41 PM

Very true, but I feel that in order for LW to sell itself it has to be a bit more than a tool for hobby and freelance artists. NewTek has basically proven this themself I think by their marketing strategy. It's about trying to "hype" the crowd to tell how great LW is, which is a method I agree to. Take Siggraph for example, they are not saying "Come see LW, the tool for hobby and freelance artists".

I feel LW has a problem here, or rather a "situation". In order for LW to sell, it has to be marketed as a tool that does everything and for a cheap price. And as I insinuated before, it's also about how great the user "thinks" the application is. Doesn't matter if him/her is right or wrong. It's all about marketing.

So in conclusion I think LW has to be more than a tool for hobby and freelance artists. It has to have "gadgets" to keep the crowd interested. Or else people will say "Oh, yeah, Lightwave... :wise: , the tool for hobby and freelance artists"

------------

EDIT: telamon, yes, things take time, hehe :) expensive for me though, $2.200. But it could be useful for big companies for sure, +it could maybe solve Lightwave's Muscle Simulation "problem".

telamon

10-05-2005, 10:56 PM

Right though... Two years ago, noone on this board would have had a look to Vue d'Esprit. Now a lot of us are quickly pre-ordering their LW upgrade to get it...

Things can change and Newtek has announced that they are following a way which seems to be the good one for a future big, robust and respectable package.

They are now the pilot of their destiny train.

@erikals... What I meant in one of my above posts is that IF Maya is dumped, a lot of development teams, not only at Autodesk, will be unemployed and a lot of development resources will be unused. I added that IF Newtek does a good revamping of Lightwave, these resources MIGHT be reallocated to the development of Lightwave (or C4D or Modo) plugins. I don't mean that Realflow/Syflex/Blablabla developing company will keep their personnel and teach them LW's SDK, I mean that probably a few structures will appear and attract the unemployed developers for other assignment, amongst which we might have LW plugins.

c-g

10-05-2005, 11:07 PM

Perhaps you didn't read a few sentences beyond that where I also mentioned that most of my colleagues don't use it either. And if you'd read a post or two beyond that you'd see I also mentioned that I am, of course, writing this all from my OWN experience.

By no means did I suggest that "the world may start and end with me and my work". How about reading all my posts before latching onto one little sentence to nitpick about.

You didn't define how many people "colleagues" are but then this wasn't aimed just at you. You posted something that came off as a universal constant, no matter how many sentences were added. You just happened to pop your head out of the wack-a-mole with the "I'd don't use that" comment. :)

leigh

10-05-2005, 11:38 PM

You didn't define how many people "colleagues" are but then this wasn't aimed just at you. You posted something that came off as a universal constant, no matter how many sentences were added. You just happened to pop your head out of the wack-a-mole with the "I'd don't use that" comment. :)

Again, please do show me where I specifically said that EVERYONE is like me. Please. Because I am really struggling to find this sentence in my posts.

Then again, why do I even bother responding to this thread. I'll go back to my "wack-a-mole" :rolleyes:

webhead

10-05-2005, 11:53 PM

In this forum, people are already prematurely mourning the passing of Lightwave, and in the Alias Maya forum, they're mourning the passing of Maya as we know it. 3D animation just aint for the faint-hearted I guess. :shrug:

Cman

10-05-2005, 11:56 PM

telamon

10-05-2005, 11:59 PM

why not, basically. Though I think autodesk is quite more severe concerning the use of patents than Newtek ;)

Dragon_Lee

10-06-2005, 12:29 AM

Also, remember when some developers left LW, they built M*d*.

We could just end up with another brand new app, created by ex-Alias developers.

A new app/company would have its work cut out to just prove their worth ... look at Luxology...

Same if the shell of Maya or Max is sold to a 3rd party that'd need to license everything but its left foot from Autodesk...

annaleah

10-06-2005, 12:32 AM

Maya's Paint Affects "is" an example of Mayas "scriptability".....probrably the prime example of the power of Maya and its "scriptability.......".....:rolleyes:

Dragon_Lee

10-06-2005, 12:37 AM

Right though... Two years ago, noone on this board would have had a look to Vue d'Esprit. Now a lot of us are quickly pre-ordering their LW upgrade to get it...

Speak for yourself :P

I think I've always liked Vue over Bryce....

telamon

10-06-2005, 12:48 AM

yes. Over Bryce.

erikals

10-06-2005, 01:05 AM

So, in conclusion Lightwave will disappear.

HAHA, sorry, just couldn't help it. :) I'm out of this thread, unsubscribing, wasn't too much good info. Laterz. :wavey:

leigh

10-06-2005, 01:15 AM

Maya's Paint Affects "is" an example of Mayas "scriptability".....probrably the prime example of the power of Maya and its "scriptability.......".....:rolleyes:

When I mentioned scriptability I was talking about individual studios ability to script their own proprietary tools into the system, NOT the tools that ship with Maya.

As usual, the LightWave forum brings out the most pointlessly argumentative posts.

Julez4001

10-06-2005, 02:22 AM

As usual, the LightWave forum brings out the most pointlessly argumentative posts.

I'm sorry. I guess I should have known...sigh!

Shade01

10-06-2005, 05:11 AM

Alright EVERYBODY, can we just drop it please?

leigh

10-06-2005, 06:53 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how people can get banned, only to come right back and immediately draw attention to themselves again. The guilty party here knows who they are.

leigh

10-06-2005, 06:55 AM

I'm sorry. I guess I should have known...sigh!

Not your fault dude.
I am talking about the folks who nitpick parts of posts and take them out of context :shrug:

T4D

10-06-2005, 06:57 AM

it always happens LW users make comments about other software, People who really uses other software correct them and BANG Flame wars starts, Stick to what you know people.:rolleyes:

As for the max maya thing, We will not see any effect of this for 1 or 2 years maybe more, so there's no real need to worry right now,

Sure Newtek need to make the best LW 9 they can, Cause they could win over afew users, but I sure & hope this doesn't change what they are doing, they should have already been In top gear Already as we all know LW is slipping in the Pro market...

seem some maya users are worried Some are happy
Some max users are worried some are happy
again nothing will happen for awhile so why care ?? ( maybe if your about to Pay for a update ?? )

why care what autodesk do?? I really Don't think they will set out to damage any of they user base, these guy are not 3D artist in anyway
they a businesmen and they job is to make as much money for they shockholders as they can.Pissing off customers is not a good thing to do in Business so I'm sure they won't do it

and if they do make a brand new app call it "Maxa" I sure it will be good and users will fall in love with it Max does need a rewrite and Maya was getting some problem If the next app solves all the problem and gets both Maya and Max users using the same app. I may buy a copy myself :D

And Lightwave will have a problem But that's aleast 2 years away and newtek & Lightwave RIght now has alot of work to do before then.

That my 2 cents :D

Suricate

10-06-2005, 08:42 AM

and if they do make a brand new app call it "Maxa" I sure it will be good and users will fall in love with it

There is already a great promotional video out for MAXA, see the thread here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=249572) :D

colkai

10-06-2005, 08:42 AM

As usual, the LightWave forum brings out the most pointlessly argumentative posts.
Sigh.. had to happen I guess, I'm outta this thread.

telamon

10-06-2005, 11:11 AM

I recently emphasized my position on the merging >> See it here << (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2711514&postcount=1363)

Nemoid

10-06-2005, 12:13 PM

Leigh's right when she says that Maya scriptability is the most important feature of that app. Big studios build pipelines around Maya for that reason, And then change the face of the app adding to it their proprietary tools and, since the rendering is the main important thing, renderman or also other proprietary rendering engines are added to this process. of course big studios have people to do this job- heavily customize the app, and MEl allows to do it quite easily.

but apps like Lightwave have another philosophy which is not to allow a complete scriptability for now,but to offer great tools out of the box. Not that maya toolset is poor, but it has to be scripted/tailored to the user/studio to become more efficient.

i personally think that the best thing would be to have the best of both worlds. because this is the future.

great tools out of the box, and possibility to script the app to obtain even more if needed.
the app would be suitable to solo users and big studios as well.

I also think that Newtek could make Lw become a wonderful app acting that way. making it become very modern, integrated, highly scriptable, and at the same time keep to provide users with cool tools projecting the app with artist in mind.

this is particularly important focus on toolset at first for users which don't want to script. allow great scriptability to obtain from the software even more if you want/need it.

about autodesk. they surely could do that as well, as they aquired a wonderful team with Alias, and have their own too, and alot of money. but i don't see these 2 software houses to focus on the artist so much, while i see clearly apps like Lw, M*d* and XSI do that more and more.

Maya an Max are very modern and flexible, but out of the box they miss the artistic approach needed for a winner app for the future.

Success of packages like Zbrush clearly demonstrate that more artistic tools and approaches are needed.

T4D

10-06-2005, 12:23 PM

but apps like Lightwave have another philosophy which is not to allow a complete scriptability for now,but to offer great tools out of the box. Not that maya toolset is poor, but it has to be scripted/tailored to the user/studio to become more efficient.

but it's one of LW weak points Too, due to Plugins like Fprime not being able to Render HV in real time, No shader support or Post process support this Causes Plugins developers ( as well as Newtek themself ) can't add features and get good workflow due to SDK limits with in the core.

Studio uses maya cause they know they not going to run into these Limits inside the core.
they can rewrite commands make they own and build they own workflow On top of Maya's core replacing large parts of Maya to suit themselfs as the job needs. which is the same thing plugins like Cat and Character studio do in Max They replace and build new workflow, But In LW we're stuck with what they give us. and again newtek are stuck with what they have as well.

Kinjiru

10-06-2005, 12:28 PM

I think this is a good day for Newtek. Why?

People who are starting 3D don't know what to choose. Maya is going to change, 3dsmax is also a target for big features and these software's aren't cheap at all, major upgrades are going to appear, so...are you going to buy Maya 7? or 3dsmax?

Not at all...XSI and lightwave are going to get the christmass sales :)

Dont you think?

Nemoid

10-06-2005, 12:59 PM

but it's one of LW weak points Too, due to Plugins like Fprime not being able to Render HV in real time, No shader support or Post process support this Causes Plugins developers ( as well as Newtek themself ) can't add features and get good workflow due to SDK limits with in the core.

Studio uses maya cause they know they not going to run into these Limits inside the core.
they can rewrite commands make they own and build they own workflow On top of Maya's core replacing large parts of Maya to suit themselfs as the job needs. which is the same thing plugins like Cat and Character studio do in Max They replace and build new workflow, But In LW we're stuck with what they give us. and again newtek are stuck with what they have as well.

yeah that.
But New Tek is working on Lw core, so, if they work well they could get rid of those limits, while mantaining the current out of the box philosophy. Lw has a good workflow modelling wise , for example. most of tools are well scripted and this have to be mantained and enhanced, just like they're doing now. at the same time they can rework the core to allow a complete scriptability of the program.
It will need some time, but it is possible, especially if Lw sells better because of the Autodesk/Alias thingy.
and in the meantime, Lw would be suitable for small studios /solo users like it is now.

T4D

10-06-2005, 01:05 PM

Totally True Nemoid:thumbsup:

most people and Small studio's Don't touch Scripting and everything in Lightwave right now works well, LW 9 will bring more features to Fprime and give more options to all developers and we're all looking forward to that
:bounce:

and maya is lossing ground in the Big Studios too so it's not all it's cracked up to be .

telamon

10-06-2005, 01:09 PM

People starting 3D cannot afford Maya or Max. LW, C4D, Modo + Messiah is fine for their credit card.

I don't know why this merging concerns so much freelance people except the fact that they lose bounds with their app of choice and forcefully with their personne for routine contact (my favorite OT is to imagine a situation where we'll loose, chuck, proton, deuce, beevee in the community, because THIS will take place in the Alias community as well as the loss of the main developers).

For me, this merging affects mainly and mostly the big structures (and their subcontractors) as well as the plugin developers. The superiority of Maya, Max, XSI is mainly visible in big productions when you'll have to set up state-of-the-art muscle systems with Syflex plus a killer dynamics engine working together with Massive rendered on a 1000-node PRMan renderfarm. Loosing support from Alias in such brittle infrastructure will be very painful for studios although they have home developpers that can do high-end programming.

Moreover, as someone (Leigh I think) said in another thread, the main fact is that the studios will be in an embarassing situation concerning future development. Indeed, how can a studio make a roadmap for future home R&D if the foundations on which they used to rely are no more solid.

I think Autodesk will have a lot of work in terms of communication and a lot of investment on support to keep customers satisfied during the next 2-3 years period. I would like to point out at the next 2-3 years are crucial because of the progressive switching to full 64 bits architecture. It is a good period to make a decision on which horse to ride after this rather huge step.

Autodesk's competitors HAVE to succeed in the 64 bits challenge and HAVE to provide tools which are close to either the Maya or Max philosophy. Attract big studios to get their subcontractors. This might be an option. I'll put a bet on Houdini personnally. If Houdini reduces slightly its pricetag, it will be THE alternative for big structures.

Go on Newtek, there are marketshares for you anyway.

Cman

10-06-2005, 01:12 PM

A new app/company would have its work cut out to just prove their worth ... look at Luxology...

...

What about them?
They seem to have decent inroads, with just a modeler.

IMHO, the benefit for Luxology, and any fallout of the Max/Maya merger, is that any team of developers could "start over". They wouldn't have any legacy code to deal with, yet they would have all the expertise and talent to do all the things they probably talk about in development meetings.

I would take very seriously anything developed by ex-Maya programmers - or Max programmers for that matter.

mav3rick

10-06-2005, 01:14 PM

omg guys..... is lw community only with so extra time or i dont read forums that much?

EsHrA

10-06-2005, 01:20 PM

All the Alias and Autodesk plans aside, i think it all depends on LW9 for NT to stay afloat.
Nothing more nothing less.

mlon

MooseDog

10-06-2005, 01:33 PM

Go on Newtek, there are marketshares for you anyway.

this is a great opportunity for newtek, i'll agree. here's the sticky part though, and i'll quote somebody i read on another forum:

http://www.lwg3d.org/forums/showthread.php?p=100073594#post100073594

From autodesks point of view every designer is a vfx house producing virtual flythoughs, that equates to every architects practice screaming out for an easy way to turn plans into reaistic inages and scenes for DVD and client preview. All in all theres a much bigger untapped vfx industry around cad users than most people could guess. Add on the fact that Cad have deliberately mixed 2d and 3d information as part of the file export ( ie things like contor data plotted as 2d vectors with NO z data required) means they have a cornered a 3d market where most of their users want a simple in house pipeline rather than much messing about converting cad to externaly usable formats.................While most 3d apps are chasing the glamour of Holywood hits, Autocad has realised that industrial visualisations are the real BULK market for 3d.
CAD is eveywhere. The sickining part of this is CAD users allready feel they can "do 3d" with results that mostly look 10 yrs out of date..................they have a Massive global market already that through shear weight of numbers will become the defacto product for general 3d work.
they need only create a few cad>3d wizards to please most of their users

I real terms I see this as the days of earning a living from 3d being numbered for many of us who use LW,
Rather than extra bells an whistles LW NEEDS solid import export features that are at very least compatable with cads mixed format DXF, Its that or sooner or later we become the isolated few who are incompatable with cads "new world order" as they serve up instant 3d for dummies to thier existing users.

again, an opportunity is definetly there for newtek, they need to integrate tools tho to make this happen. certainly looking forward to [9] with hopes for movement in this direction for newtek's continuing success.

*edit: found this neat link to demonstrate:

http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Mag/Cs/VOLUME_5/Issue_10/1.htm

telamon

10-06-2005, 01:45 PM

What about them?
I would take very seriously anything developed by ex-Maya programmers - or Max programmers for that matter.

Depending on their contract with their current employer, they might not be allowed to develop some competiting package. Moreover, I am sure that everything that they know is patented and Autodesk is known to be very strict with all matters relating to intellectual property. I am not so sure that a hord of ex-maya developers will be able to develop something as smoothly and quickly as Luxology did.

Nemoid

10-06-2005, 02:10 PM

yep i agree with this point. CAD is used by many people for Archi viz, and often architects give to 3d artists files to work on and develop in 3D for previsualization stills and walktrough animations. I dunno about other apps, but this is clearly a field in which nt can improve.
a good thing is that Lw will have cad tools new version, so that this will advance its features, but i agree on import export functions being strategic.

thats BTW what Autodesk understood too: ArchiViz is a huge market, together with design (Alias Studio tols anyone ?)this in terms of difusion and user base.So, as for huge usebases they will poin to these targets.
for movie industry (smaller userbase, lets face it)they could easily wait keeping Maya and Max separate, while feeding max with alot of technologies previously in Maya. this way big studios will not have to change.
then, since they can do it for sure cause they aquired a new good team with alias one, they could start projecting another big high end app. so that they will be able to provide assistance and good deals fo big studios basing theuir pipeline into Mayax new app (LOL)

these could be their clever moves.

but there's a little prob.

since toolset out of the box is better in Lw an app like this could really make the difference if become modern and reliable.and good for archiviz and design. Look at M*d*o.
And after all, now the movie market is also made from several small studios (think to zoic or computer cafe for example) that have their own pipeline, so, the best app for the future has great built in tools, and good scriptability at the same time.what freelancer and small studios wants to script what ?maybe only a little to get rid of tedious tasks.
only big studios have a huge need to put their previous proprietary tools in the main app.

Lw is there , cheap and complete. and if well developed could play a major role in the future.

telamon

10-06-2005, 02:16 PM

then, since they can do it for sure cause they aquired a new good team with alias one, they could start projecting another big high end app. so that they will be able to provide assistance and good deals fo big studios basing theuir pipeline into Mayax new app (LOL)

No amico. Number 3-4-5 at Alias will leave mainly because they become number 2403985, 24893984, 248902948 at Autodesk. Moreover, there are project managers well seated at Autodesk which might be interested by managing Maya.

Without the head, legs are nothing but legs. Stupid combination of 3 bones plus a foot.

The company which will hire those now-free managers will certainly make a big step forward.

JML

10-06-2005, 02:51 PM

As usual, the LightWave forum brings out the most pointlessly argumentative posts.

1.Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
2.Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
3.Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.

Maxx

10-06-2005, 02:59 PM

a good thing is that Lw will have cad tools new version
Did I miss this in the press release? (I'd check it, but am having trouble connecting to newtek.com.) I hope I did - that would be awesome! :bounce: What tools are going to be included?

Nemoid

10-06-2005, 03:09 PM

No amico. Number 3-4-5 at Alias will leave mainly because they become number 2403985, 24893984, 248902948 at Autodesk. Moreover, there are project managers well seated at Autodesk which might be interested by managing Maya.

Without the head, legs are nothing but legs. Stupid combination of 3 bones plus a foot.

The company which will hire those now-free managers will certainly make a big step forward.

it wouldn't be so clever making of the guys of that team only numbers into a huge machine.
it would be more clever to allow them lead the developing of a revolutionary tool.
at least that's what i think. :)

btw i hope they could be welcome in the Newtek team in the opposite case!

Julez4001

10-06-2005, 03:15 PM

Think about it. Autodesk could acquire AVID or at least buy XSI from them.
This is very possible.
THE BIG 3 of the THE BIG 4.

BIG 3 as TRI-ONE vs Lightwave, Houdini, Messiah, Modo, etc.

The TRI-One could become a whole new app and become the defacto standard in 3D content.
The Photoshop of 3D.

This is not very far fetch thinking in lite of what happen.

OR if XSI won't budge, Autodesk could swoop around and grab Lightwave just to steal its userbase and any of ther development (which is hardly eye-popping, not a insult, but Newtek isn't offering any technology that they don't have already) but could create a bigger marketshare wher eall the film and broadcast will start going to Autodesk.

telamon

10-06-2005, 03:36 PM

Julez... autodesk does not care of Maya, XSI, LW, C4D, Modo and so on ;)

williamsburroughs

10-06-2005, 03:39 PM

Autodesk bought Alias for Studio Tools not Maya...Maya and MB was just icing on the cake. This whole concept of Autodesk going around just buying up the competition is a bit myopic in my opinion.

If you look at Autodesk's bread and butter it is the CAD/CAM industry and not the DCC market. Stuido Tools is by far one of the best NURBS solutions out there and the market knows this. Having Studio Tools in their arsenal really helps elevate Autodesk's status in the market being fought over by Inventor and SolidWorks (SW is kicking arse in the market) and Autodesk needs something like Studio Tools to keep them banking since Inventor hasn't been what they thought it would be.

The DCC market is a baby market when you look at the real world of 3D. We're just a bunch of punk kids who are lucky to do what we do.

Cheers.

Chewey

10-06-2005, 05:17 PM

Gee what a surprise, a hyperbolicly(sp?) titled post yields paranoid speculative musings.(not all posts however as some are quite insightful)

leigh

10-06-2005, 05:37 PM

Think about it. Autodesk could acquire AVID or at least buy XSI from them.

I doubt it. I am sure that AVID is worth a lot more than Autodesk.

dev3d

10-06-2005, 07:07 PM

avid market value = $ 1,406,158,320

autodesk market value = $ 9,971,944,000

leigh

10-06-2005, 07:11 PM

avid market value = $ 1,406,158,320

autodesk market value = $ 9,971,944,000

I stand corrected!

Nemoid

10-06-2005, 07:11 PM

Did I miss this in the press release? (I'd check it, but am having trouble connecting to newtek.com.) I hope I did - that would be awesome! :bounce: What tools are going to be included?

Sorry Maxx i was talking about a commercial plugin here.
but a cool one. my bad english didn't help so much.
Itas CAD tools, and it will support also NURBS in its version 2.0 to be released. (!!!)

Cad tools : http://www.wtools3d.com/

btw it would be awesome if Nt include such a plugin in Lw out of the box. after 9.0

Maxx

10-06-2005, 07:27 PM

Sorry Maxx i was talking about a commercial plugin here.
but a cool one. my bad english didn't help so much.
Itas CAD tools, and it will support also NURBS in its version 2.0 to be released. (!!!)

Cad tools : http://www.wtools3d.com/

btw it would be awesome if Nt include such a plugin in Lw out of the box. after 9.0
Ahhh.. I had the thought after I posted that you were speaking of that plug in - wasn't your english, it was my swiss cheese brain. Got it now, thanks! (And yeah, I think NT should just wrap that plug into LW. Would be most excellent :thumbsup: )

mocaw

10-06-2005, 08:10 PM

Marketing does a lot- as does getting the product into schools etc.

That being said I find it funny that Autodesk is basicly saying that Max is going to be for games, and Maya just for films. While many studios would be just fine getting a one-trick pony app I think there are a lot of users, such as the LW user base, that like the idea of a app that can do almost everything they want- no mater how watered down certain parts are.

I think LW though IS a specialized app at this point. TV, with it's lower budget, needs prodcuts like LW around where a small team can cook up something quick and cheap. Again LW, though lacking in Arch Viz market share, also is used a lot for print/illustration work where the animation tools take a distant back seat to getting something photoreal no mater what the render time. Many of these people are also freelance or mainly graphic designers etc. in very small design studios- so they don't need MEL, VBscript, or extensive rendertrees etc. Why in the hell would a designer care about fCurves, expressions, a history stack etc. etc.? (OK so a history stack could be good) To them a pipeline is only used for Oil!

So if anything I think that apps like LW and C4D, at their price point and ease of use, could become more of the "PhotoShops" of 3D in that the same people who make a living out of using things like the Adobe suite will be attracted to them- or continue to use them. A lot of designers are just begining to use 3D. The fact that these apps run in their highest forms on Macs and PCs should not be over looked either.

I see LW staying where it always has, except that it, C4D and XSI FND will also eat up more of the bottom level of 3D. No more 3 levels unless you count Blender- and gone will be the animation masters, and truespaces of the world.

Just my 2cents from my side of the design and motion graphics side of the pond...

mocaw

10-06-2005, 08:15 PM

avid market value = $ 1,406,158,320

autodesk market value = $ 9,971,944,000

That's still a hell of a lot more than Alias went for! And what part does XSI play in that share? I bet most of it comes from AVID editing tools...but I'm sure someone will come up with a stat to prove me wrong!

telamon

10-06-2005, 10:46 PM

What are those "market value" ? Does this mean the price of the company if you want to buy it on the stock market ? I have seen on Autodesk's site that they are proud to announce a record profit for 2005. It will be $ 350m for a target revenue of $ 1,5b (>20 % profit hey)... This means that if I buy Autocad I'll be paid back in 30 years... Not a good deal. Overestimated market price I think...

The same for Avid.

annaleah

10-07-2005, 12:23 AM

avid market value = $ 1,406,158,320

autodesk market value = $ 9,971,944,000

Almost a billion dollars?
And now with the claiming of Maya proceeds from those sales pushing the profits even more.....this might be a good thing for Maya anyway...at least for the employees that are working and will be working on Maya.
BTW;This wont kill Lightwave anyway you carve it...Newtek will just drop the price again like Caligari Truespace had to do and is still doing to keep sales afloat.

Good one JML.

leigh

10-07-2005, 12:43 AM

1.Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
2.Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
3.Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.

You don't need to repeat to me the rules that we wrote. If you'd actually been around here and moderating this place for as long as I have, you'd know that this forum is notorious for pointless squabbling.
And I don't see how you can deny that this was happening right here in this very thread yesterday - I posted a factual post regarding the main reasons for Maya's popularity in the industry I work in (MEL and Renderman), and got people nitpicking little parts of my posts out of context - totally unnecessary.. As the admin of this site, I am certainly growing very, very weary of it.

Cman

10-07-2005, 01:30 AM

You don't need to repeat to me the rules that we wrote. If you'd actually been around here and moderating this place for as long as I have, you'd know that this forum is notorious for pointless squabbling.
And I don't see how you can deny that this was happening right here in this very thread yesterday - I posted a factual post regarding the main reasons for Maya's popularity in the industry I work in (MEL and Renderman), and got people nitpicking little parts of my posts out of context - totally unnecessary.. As the admin of this site, I am certainly growing very, very weary of it.

Don't bite the bait.

leigh

10-07-2005, 01:35 AM

Don't bite the bait.

You know, there comes a point where everyone breaks. And I have. But now I am going to just ignore this thread. It seems to have gotten back on track today, and that's all I care about now.

bugzilla

10-07-2005, 04:19 PM

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http://www.digital-sorcery.com/

Podcast URL:
http://www.digital-sorcery.com/web/XML/dwars_production.xml

artmann

10-07-2005, 05:52 PM

I think LW though IS a specialized app at this point. TV, with it's lower budget, needs prodcuts like LW around where a small team can cook up something quick and cheap. Again LW, though lacking in Arch Viz market share, also is used a lot for print/illustration work where the animation tools take a distant back seat to getting something photoreal no mater what the render time. Many of these people are also freelance or mainly graphic designers etc. in very small design studios- so they don't need MEL, VBscript, or extensive rendertrees etc. Why in the hell would a designer care about fCurves, expressions, a history stack etc. etc.? (OK so a history stack could be good) To them a pipeline is only used for Oil!

i totally agree. the artist-friendliness, fast production - excellent results can be newteks niche for lightwave. more stuff like even easier to use visual expressions (guess that´s in [9] already) for the artists etc etc.

and don´t forget autodesks insane pricing politics for the european markets. i guess you can add 50% or so for maya complete in due time here! i am not kidding! they ask more then 6200 US$ for 3ds here! i guess newtek don´t have to lower the prices more for lightwave, not for our sake anyways! what we do need more marketing, promos for lightwave in europe. lightwave feels almost extinct here in sweden!

to get back on topic, no way will the max/maya merger kill newtek. i say the real winners of this merge are wavers and softies! we should laugh all the way to our workstations in the mornings i know i do :)

Nemoid

10-09-2005, 01:20 PM

I quite agree with this : Lw is a good app for the TV market because a small team can get alot done with it into a small timeframe.
at the same time, some of Lw work for movies just rock. for example Serenity fx from Zoic studios. :)

i think that Lw will improve further. it would be great to see much more CA done with it. it works for CA too, BTW, but i'd like to see enhancements in this area . making animation really easier.

Zarathustra

10-09-2005, 03:51 PM

I think LW will be further pushed into the single user or very small group, quick turnaround sector. It's been entrenched there from the beginning but that might be the only place it'll seriously have left.
The two main reasons it's been used in films is for modeling and rendering. Better modeling options have already been on the scene for awhile now, so that just leaves rendering. If Max and Maya will have unlimited MR rendernodes, then people won't bother porting data to LW anymore for rendering.

Will recent happenings kill LW? No, I don't think so. It's just that it's been a blue collar app that has hob-knobbed with the upper crust from time to time but I think that'll happen less and less. It'll stay blue collar and no doubt do pretty well in that sector now that it's getting it's house in order and can stop C4D from encroaching on it's niche which it's done a lot of over the last 2 or 3 years.

Nemoid

10-09-2005, 07:33 PM

i think the good strategy is to make become Lw even more streamlined and easy to use as a complete tool from modelling to animating and rendering. hopefully, Lw 9,0 will bring great enhancements, like edges, n gons for modelling as well as some good enhancements on the GUI and toolset to make modelling even more efficient, enhancements to the main Lw structure, rendering enhancements, and more. and this is very good.

The work to be done in time during the 9.x cycle is is making of Lw a really modern app, and this mean rewriting of the structure, even if gradually like the team seems to be doing.

the reason of the need of doing this is simple : even if the market of Lw and its diffusion for TV production , print and other areas which can be handled by solo users /small teams is big, other apps could fill that niche soon and with cool features. M*d*o for example is becoming more and more a competitor in this market despite not being complete yet.

also, this niche isn't enough for an app to stay well on the market

the other reason is that i don't see why Lw couldn't become very modern in its core, and couple the streamlined easy to use philosophy with a lot of flexibility and power brought from a modern structure. so in this environment, even movie market could become bigger for Lw.

its rendering, despite slow, is good for the quality of its light, but its getting old because the lacking of features like subpixel displacement, or a faster GI. i think rendering will have a revamp because Nt hired good programmers to enhance it so even this area will be worked out,

And then, there's the CA area that would need strong enhancements for sure. many studios even use messiah, or maya for animation . Not that Lw can't animate at all but many studios seem to choose other solutions for character animation when its the time to grow and go faster.
on the contrary, Lw should become able to make of this area a stronger point.

what i want to say is : i'm happy with Lw now, but innovation is the key to take its position in the market, and grow better. even if gradually, I'd give it a fantastic core, modern in its concepts and phiilosophy.

ThirdEye

10-09-2005, 08:11 PM

the only app that can kill LW is LW itself.

telamon

10-09-2005, 08:28 PM

the only app that can kill LW is LW itself.

quoted for agreement.

habañero

10-09-2005, 11:21 PM

"I think LW will be further pushed into the single user or very small group, quick turnaround sector. It's been entrenched there from the beginning but that might be the only place it'll seriously have left. The two main reasons it's been used in films is for modeling and rendering. Better modeling options have already been on the scene for awhile now, so that just leaves rendering. If Max and Maya will have unlimited MR rendernodes, then people won't bother porting data to LW anymore for rendering.

Will recent happenings kill LW? No, I don't think so. It's just that it's been a blue collar app that has hob-knobbed with the upper crust from time to time but I think that'll happen less and less. It'll stay blue collar and no doubt do pretty well in that sector now that it's getting it's house in order and can stop C4D from encroaching on it's niche which it's done a lot of over the last 2 or 3 years."

I mean with the constant negativity and the "questions people can't or won't ask" I just hope you will agree to eat your words if this is something that wasn't as clever after all.

Read this thread (http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8578&page=2&pp=15). It just don't make sense to me to say this:

"hob-knobbed with the upper crust from time to time but I think that'll happen less and less."

As if the development we have seen with the new team and Worleys products isn't a promising one.

telamon

10-10-2005, 02:09 AM

Zara's words are full of wisdom, I think. Lightwave provides excellent tools for small production.

It may happen that studios use LW as the basis for the production pipeline in cinema. This may happen... The main reasons for this were the infinite render nodes and, as always, the studios and artists which use the tool they like and are accustomed to.

But facts are clear. MEL/Maya is THE basis for most of the production pipelines at the moment in Cinema. The same for games and 3DS Max. XSI is becoming rock solid for major productions.

Whatever it might happen, do not believe major studios will switch to anything other than a known and validated basis. If, for instance, Maya is dropped, do you think that if a studio switch they will go to something as new as Modo or Lightwave 9-10? No. It will select something with a bit more running time and XSI is years ahead.

Calling a package "blue-collar app" is not a criticism. It may be used everywhere (remember LW7) but under the hood. This means that there will be work for Lightwavers ANYWAY... I don't care if LW is over every big signs if there are no job for freelance and regular employees!

Zarathustra

10-10-2005, 01:49 PM

So can we discuss things like adults or must we live up to the stereotype this forum has and start bitching, fighting and provoking individuals, habanero?

I said LW is getting it's house in order and can perhaps start to take back marketshare from apps like C4D. Broadcast and video is a solid source of work and LW could regain dominance of that. I refer to that as "blue-collar" because it doesn't have the glamor of being Star Wars or Jurasic Park but so what? I know of mechanics and HVAC guys who make more $$$ than doctors or lawyers.
Serenity was a hybrid in the sense that much was done quicker and cheaper than your $200m Star Wars budget. In environments like that, LW can find a place and it did despite drawbacks that had to be worked around. The big reason it's been used is the unlimited render nodes. It's no small task to port entire animations to LW just to render so I think if Maya gets unlimited MR nodes then no one will bother anymore. Like Telamon said, studios will use what they're accustomed to first and most are used to MR.
The only ones who will be rendering in LW in the future are people who've just finished animating in LW.

Things aren't just black and white, jalepeno. Saying LW will have less use in films isn't a condemnation of LW's dev team and certainly not of Worley who I think the world of. The title of this thread asks if the merger will kill LW, and I've said "no". If that's commenting negatively on LW... :rolleyes: