CGTalk - 2D artist in wayyyy over his head. Help please.

smackbringer

10-03-2005, 04:38 PM

I accepted the job because the other portion of it is right up my alley but they kind of roped me into doing this cover as well. I'm willing to work hard on this but I have a few days before I begin so I'm trying to plot a course of action hence the need for advice.

BTW, I'm also from Baltimore, MD. I live in Cockeysville.

Sagii

10-03-2005, 04:51 PM

Oh trouble.... I cant really help much.. but there is one place you might go ask for help.

2D WIP Anatomy Review with Rebecca Kimmel. Once you have your main characters sketched. Go there and ask for advice on how to make him more anatomically correct. She has tutorials there too..

http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=177

There is a sticky with TONS of tutorials there.. here is the link.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=273525

For other painting tutorials go to Art Techniques and Theories Forum.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=166

there are many tutorials there too!

sorry I am still a student and dont know much about painting really.. so this is all the help I can give.

good luck!!! :thumbsup:

MasonDoran

10-03-2005, 04:54 PM

Well, the artist that did that painting is the famous Boris Vallejo. He is of course using traditional oil painting to get this style. You can google his work to see how extensive it is and be able to find out how he works.

Seriously though, his style is nothing like comic book art...its more photographic if anything. If you can start out with a really tight pencil sketch you might be able to get some where

here are some tutorials from the pros

http://www.pensnpixels.com/flatting.htm

http://www.gfxartist.com/features/tutorials

Ninjas

10-03-2005, 05:19 PM

Okay, first off, let me say that I used to have a linear style and I am now doing more painterly stuff. It only took me a year to make the transition.
First, I would buy a wacom and forget about actually painting in oil. If you want to paint in oil, you'll have to learn all the techniques of the medium on top of all the light and color techniques.
I'll show you my process, although this is for black and white, not color

Image Process (http://members.aol.com/wizzox/Rabbit/process.jpg)

danylyon

10-03-2005, 05:31 PM

Experimenting on a big job can blow up in your face. Good luck

No risk no fun :)
Challenging jobs are always the most fun for me..

I'm not a 2D Artist, so take my advice with a grain of salt. But what about taking exact reference photos. As far as I know, Boris works with reference photos.

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 05:43 PM

Ines,

Thanks for the thread pimpin'. :) You're learning from the master, Roberto! :D

smackbringer,

I'd be happy to help you if I can...but I kind of have limited time due to the fact that I'm teaching a CGWorkshop that starts today.

For Anatomy Reference, you may want to check out this thread:

Reference for Anatomical and Figurative Art (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=257570&highlight=Reference)

Ben Miller is a great model who has a number of nude poses here:
http://justmeina.deviantart.com/gallery/

Hong Ly has a great website with nude femal reference here:
http://www.characterdesigns.com/

Check both of these out for basic reference. Do a line drawing. Do a shaded drawing in grayscale using the method outlined by Ninjas, or by Stahlberg:

Stahlberg's tutorial:
http://www.androidblues.com/JealousyStepbystep/jealousystep.html

Post your work on the Anatomy Forum (http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=177) ~ create a thread called Help needed - figure assignment.

Good luck! I'll try to help you as much as I can. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

Sagii

10-03-2005, 05:50 PM

Rebecca, you start today?! Oh sweet! good luck girl!
and yes I have been pimping your and Roberto's Forums in many a post. :)
Well it is an easy sell considering the great product :)

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 06:04 PM

Aw, Ines, you're a sweetie. *passes Ines a 20* :scream:

f97ao

10-03-2005, 06:07 PM

Ok, some tips.

Use Painter with well Intous. You can actually survive with a mouse as well but a brush is of course better. Don't use too many brushes. Use a Smeary oil brush (no impasto I would think) and use it for almost all the painting. Painter has pretty complex settings for brushes and you can easily get lost. I did this image with only one brush (smeary oil in Painter 6 I think it was) and actually a mouse.

http://www.fusion-wave.com/digital/5/towers_complete.jpg

Pictures, pictures are important to get realistic results. Grab as many pictures as you can and piece them together so you have a big scrollable image with lots images with the sky, details on the ground, leaves, and mainly the characters.

First of create a color scetch. Paint with big brushes so you have all the colors in the right place.

One cheap way to begin with the character may be to use Poser as a starting point. Pose the chars so they look like you want and take a snapshot of it for reference.

One way to create images pretty easily is to have strong contrasts. Have dark areas in the foreground. Sharp rocks, tree branches etc. Then the characters in the middle with action going on and perhaps medium light sky with some light elements. Sun rays or lightning perhaps.

I would use a technique like that myself, but I normally don't paint that much characters, mostly environments.
Good luck.

/Andreas

MarGera

10-03-2005, 06:13 PM

Damn i LOVE that film!!

http://www.garnersclassics.com/pics/vacat/marty_1.jpg

I think the best thing to do, is get a few rough idea's down first, then try to keep improving on them. To a bit i think it could almost be a case of practice, practice, practice.

Have you got anything you can show at the moment?

ntmonkey

10-03-2005, 06:27 PM

Get a hair dryer and some acrylic paint. You can duplicate the same effect with oils by thowing down thinned acrylic glazes and then hitting it with a hairdryer. I've done oil-like paintings in fraction of the time. At the end, hit it with a varnish to give it the "lively" vibrance you usually get from oils.

This might actually be faster than pencils.

peace,

Lu

theCloudmover

10-03-2005, 06:32 PM

To get a piece anywhere close to Boris's work you're going to need models.

If it's for a B horror movie set up a photoshoot with the actors in the movie and shoot your reference. This is extremely important. To fake this type of draftsmanship is almost impossible (especially if you only have three weeks).

For the finish, I would head to the bookstore or library and get a tutorial from THE SOURCE!
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/6260/068481904x7sp.jpg

Buy Fantasy Art techniques by Boris Vallejo. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/068481904X/qid=1128360187/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-7310602-7013731?v=glance&s=books)

It's a great book and also includes a step-by step of the National Lampoon's Vacation movie poster you referenced. Amazon has a used copy available for $3.14

If you're not familiar with oils I would use Painter to recreate the techniques he describes in the book. Hope that helps.

Shade01

10-03-2005, 06:34 PM

Honestly, if I were you, I'd get someone to pose and just take a picture. If I were really pressed for time, I'd just do a rough trace over the picture and use the lighting in the picture as a guide for the lighting of the painting. People say tracing is cheating but phooey to that if you have to get the job done. That should give you extra time to spend on the painting process.

smackbringer

10-03-2005, 06:35 PM

Thank you all, i feel overwhelmed with the amount of tutorials you threw at me. Rebeccak, thanks for posting, I think that stahlberg tutorial may have hit the nail on the proverbial head. Also, good luck with your class. I may just end up taking one from you eventually.

Boris Vallejo, I knew I had seen that name somewhere, just couldn't put the name to the artwork.

Really, thanks to everyone who posted suggestions, I will read through each and every one of those tutorials.

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 06:55 PM

smackbringer,

Thank you very much! :) Best of luck with your work. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

XLNT-3d

10-03-2005, 08:22 PM

Sulla

10-03-2005, 08:32 PM

Since you are pressed for time the best way I think to do this would be to start with models. Either get your friends to pose, hire models of get he people from the movie to do it. Take a lot of shots not 1 or 2 as you dont really know what you have until you look at them in onscreen. Next use photoshop to composit an image together out of the best parts of the shots. Then edit it in photoshop to get it exactly like you want. Then just use that as a base for a painting in Painter if you really want it to look painterly. And you can always blend the painted version with the originial to get details where you want them. Doing it this way will be by far the fastest and best I believe.

Oh and also the main things about working from photos is to go over ALL of the photo making the lines and detials look good. When you go from a model to a drawing then to the computer you naturaly make all the lines flow and edit the ones that distract etc. You will need to do this in photoshop. If not it will just look like a snapshot.

Oh and good luck.

smackbringer

10-03-2005, 09:17 PM

Will you be posting the WIP as you go?

I only mentioned the risk, because I have always taken them. I have rarely failed, but the risk is there. My first airbrush job was like that. I had no clue, but someone hired me. So I ran out and bought an airbrush and some 1shot enamel. I had one really bad screw up, but I called a pro at 11pm and he walked me through how to fix it.

smackbringer I am in Pasadena, but work in Millersville. Are you a fulltime freelance artist?

I'm not a full time freelance artist. I work in columbia, MD at the headquarters for a national sign franchise in IT. Since I'm not a pro artist, things like this tend to freak me out a bit but I take the jobs for the extra money and it also adds to my resume and helps push me out of my saftey box. This piece is definitely outside my comfort zone art wise. A little too much. I will absolutely be posting WIPs of this piece as I highly value the comments on this forum.

Sulla, I absolutely requested all the references I can get. The one girl is a russian bikini model and she's been well documented. I just have to find a choice photo of her. ;) The main character also happens to be the producer and a very cool guy. If I can't get a good reference picture of him, I could always drive over and get a picture with my digital camera. He's supposed to be calling me tomorrow about the reference pictures and the wacom.

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 09:21 PM

smackbringer,

Oh, hey, you're a local. :) XLNT 3d, Roberto has mentioned you, I think you gave a talk at the local SIGGRAPH meeting? Wish I could have made it. :)

At any rate, good luck with this ~ I agree, doing new projects is quite useful to break out of the box. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

Sulla

10-03-2005, 09:26 PM

Well you should be fine if you have reference shots to start with. You can just a strait digital work flow and it will be fine.

smackbringer

10-03-2005, 09:29 PM

Yeah, i'm really trying to pull out all the stops so that this thing dosen't crash and burn badly. Anything to minimize failure.

Rebeccak, are you East Coast as well?

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 09:31 PM

smackbringer,

Yep, Northern VA. :)

smackbringer

10-03-2005, 09:43 PM

Thats awsome, I work about 20 minutes above the DC beltway. My best friend lives in Arlington. Do you ever do workshops or classes locally?

Kanga

10-03-2005, 09:45 PM

RobertoOrtiz

10-03-2005, 09:46 PM

Are you sure Rebecca?

Funny, I could swear that you lived somewhere up north. Like Alaska or Vermont.
At least that what I saw on the CgSociety map.

-R

RobertoOrtiz

10-03-2005, 09:47 PM

Thats awsome, I work about 20 minutes above the DC beltway. My best friend lives in Arlington. Do you ever do workshops or classes locally?

Rebecca gave a local workshop a few months ago, and it was packed.
-R

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 09:49 PM

smackbringer,

You know, I've only ever done one (this was in the runup to the Anatomy Reviews, I was trying to shake off some rust and see if I could still draw anything, lol) :) and it was really cool! I'd love to do more, I did this one in conjunction with some really nice folks at ArtDC.org, and it was a blast. Even bought like 14 flimsy wood fold~up easels for the event, lol! :)

I'd like to try to do something like that more, but it's hard to get space, etc. Models are less of a problem, as there is the local Figure Drawing Guild, and ArtDC can help me with hiring models (we had 2 the day of the workshop). Roberto was there, as well as Ines and LoTekk, Thalaxis, and a few other locals I know thru CGTalk. What I'd really like to do is teach full~time, but of course it takes time to get that kind of position, and I haven't yet finished my MFA. But yep, after the CGWorkshop, I'd like to try to organize another local workshop. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

smackbringer

10-03-2005, 10:06 PM

Shows how little most people understand about what goes into making an illustration of that quality. Vallejo spent his whole life developing the style you are going to try to approach. When you start on this piece you will begin to appreciate the mastery of it.

I'd say you should do a kick ass job on the stuff that is up your alley and hope for the best on the poster.

This style is so far from line art its no laughing matter.

None the less good luck:thumbsup:.

I absolutely know what you're talking about. I assured the producer that my stuff would be nowhere near as good but I think he understands that. Close will work in this case. I'm nervous that I might get in too deep that I won't be able to have a pro bail me out.

Sulla

10-03-2005, 10:11 PM

Its funny I never could stand most Vallejo's work. So personaly I would not try to copy it exactly:)

XLNT-3d

10-03-2005, 10:16 PM

now that we have some background story to your situation, they WIP should be fun to watch. There's nothing like a fire under your ass to motivate creativity. I was going to suggest finding some backup help around here or something, but that can blow your budget really fast. I got jammed up one night and someone here bailed me out. I didn't make anything after paying him and he gave me a discount for future work, which I gave him.

XLNT-3d

10-03-2005, 10:26 PM

Oh, hey, you're a local. :) XLNT 3d, Roberto has mentioned you, I think you gave a talk at the local SIGGRAPH meeting? Wish I could have made it. :)

~Rebeccak

It was a lot of fun. I meet some good people. Nice to put a face to a name here. Roberto was much more hostile in person than here :twisted:. Seriously, it was a good night. Hopefully next time we can address some of the marketplace issues that came up.

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 10:29 PM

It was a lot of fun. I meet some good people. Nice to put a face to a name here. Roberto was much more hostile in person than here :twisted:. Seriously, it was a good night. Hopefully next time we can address some of the marketplace issues that came up.
ROFL...a 5'3" bundle of hostility, eh? ROFL...:)

Yep, hope to catch ya next time. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

RobertoOrtiz

10-03-2005, 10:35 PM

ROFL...a 5'3" bundle of hostility, eh? ROFL...:)

Yep, hope to catch ya next time. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

You both will PAY!

And it is 5' 4"!

-R

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 10:36 PM

ROFL...you know what they say about height sensitivity being inversely proportional to height...:rolleyes: :D :scream:

Roberto was much more hostile in person than here
Yeah, now I see what you mean...:rolleyes: :scream:

XLNT-3d

10-03-2005, 10:41 PM

I thought it was that tempermental artist thing. I never realized that it might be that Napoleon Syndrome. Oh well, everyone knows big things come in small packages.

Rebeccak

10-03-2005, 10:42 PM

I thought it was that tempermental artist thing. I never realized that it might be that Napoleon Syndrome. Oh well, everyone knows big things come in small packages.
ROFL...you're my hero...:scream: *I'm sooo dead, btw...*

RobertoOrtiz

10-03-2005, 10:45 PM

ROFL...you're my hero...:scream: *I'm sooo dead, btw...*

<< GASP!>>

Ohh trust me..... you are....
Rebecca this is for you

http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/pot_kettle.jpg

-R

XLNT-3d

10-03-2005, 10:47 PM

:twisted:

smackbringer, if all else fails, you can always buy Poser and a few models. Set them up and apply the Vallejo render plugin filter for rendering. I think Daz3d made that plugin.

XLNT-3d

10-03-2005, 10:54 PM

I can't believe a moderator is trying to hijack this thread :eek: . See all the fun, you need to come to the meetings now smackbringer.

Kanga

10-03-2005, 10:58 PM

I absolutely know what you're talking about. I assured the producer that my stuff would be nowhere near as good but I think he understands that. Close will work in this case. I'm nervous that I might get in too deep that I won't be able to have a pro bail me out.

Well you have done all you can do. Too often customers point to a high budget product and say 'yeah we want something like that'. I've been in that boat myself often enough and you don't want to go there.

I don't know what you mean about a pro bailing you out tho.
Anyhow you told them and that's the main thing.

RobertoOrtiz

10-03-2005, 11:00 PM

Ok getting back on topic.
This could be a topic on the dialy sketch forum.

Would you be willing to outsource it?
there are a couple of great sketch artitst that would do a great piece in that forum.

_R

smackbringer

10-04-2005, 02:20 AM

I can't believe a moderator is trying to hijack this thread :eek: . See all the fun, you need to come to the meetings now smackbringer.

What meetings?

And I'm glad to meet you all so soon. This is pretty cool, I had no idea that this many people were local.

danielh68

10-04-2005, 04:51 AM

Man, that's a tough one. If you are going to tackle it, break it down into digestible bites to ease your anxiety. Try this:

1. Sketch your comp (hopefully the client can review a few thumbnails)

2. Redefine your line work in terms of light and dark by choosing three gray values: Lignt, Medium and Dark. Work out all your problems at this stage.

3. When your done with your Grisaille (grayscale painting) create a new layer and set it to Overlay, then fill it with a warm earthy color.

4. Flatten it

5. Then create another layer and apply your desired colors at different opacities (perhaps 30%-40%) while periodically changing between Normal and Overlay brush modes--whatever works at the time being.

6. Once you achieved a wash of your general color scheme, flatten it again and then tighten it up with more opaque colors (80%) while eye-dropping directly from the canvas.

Hope this helps. Good Luck.

Lunatique

10-04-2005, 05:57 AM

Realistically speaking, only artists who are highly skilled/experienced could reproduce that Boris Vallejo look. Anyone who's novice or intermediate will not be able to do it. You should always take on assignements within your ability, or else you risk ruining your professional image and reputation. You could stretch a bit and take on assignments that will challenge you, but if it's blatantly above your current skill level, you're really just asking for a nightmare.

I wish you luck. And if you don't pull it off, at least you'd have learned a very important lesson.

Rebeccak

10-04-2005, 05:57 AM

What meetings?

And I'm glad to meet you all so soon. This is pretty cool, I had no idea that this many people were local.
AA. :D Nah, local SIGGRAPH meetings. :)

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

smackbringer

10-04-2005, 12:07 PM

May I ask what a SIGGRAPH meeting is?

I think If I do go forward with it, I may work in grayscale for the preview. I'll try to talk with the producer today and tell him about my anxiety and ask if there are any other artists that might be able to do this. This thing has got me stressed.

Y0da

10-04-2005, 01:03 PM

I'm no great artist (yet) but I can give you some advice I learned in the school of life. Just do it. Don't think about it, don't talk about, don't worry about it. Just do it. ;)

smackbringer

10-04-2005, 01:50 PM

Just got an email this morning from the producer saying "I hope we can procede quickly with this." With some reference photos. So it begins. I'll Be posting my progress I guess. My plan of action is to start drawing on an 11x17 peice of paper. Good art always starts with good lineart so its going to be drawing time. Even if the coloring sucks, if the lineart is good, I might still be able to pull it off.

cyartist

10-04-2005, 03:13 PM

Realistically speaking, only artists who are highly skilled/experienced could reproduce that Boris Vallejo look. Anyone who's novice or intermediate will not be able to do it. You should always take on assignements within your ability, or else you risk ruining your professional image and reputation. You could stretch a bit and take on assignments that will challenge you, but if it's blatantly above your current skill level, you're really just asking for a nightmare.

Why risk your name on one job if you are getting constant work from this client.
You should find another artist. IF you are willing to outsource it I can do it for you since this is my style. My skill level is near Boris Vallejo's level and have samples I can send you. I live in Maryland. Send me a PM and I will send you the samples.

smackbringer

10-04-2005, 09:14 PM

You guys asked to see some of my art, heres my first WIP in this thread.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=282748

danielh68

10-04-2005, 09:55 PM

You should definitely farm this project out or renegotiate with your client. Just my honest opinion.

smackbringer

10-04-2005, 09:59 PM

I'm working on it. I contacted Cyartist. I feel better about contracting out. Its not about me or my ego or trying to do the cover for a movie but I'm concerned with the end product and meeting deadlines. I already sent an email to the producer saying the same thing.

danielh68

10-04-2005, 10:07 PM

Good deal. I was once in a similar predicament, but instead of illustration, it was package design. I designed a merchandise box for a client but was clueless about the production-side of things. In short, I outsourced it to someone who specialized in package production and it was well worth it. It saved my sanity and satisfied my client.

Well, good luck! :thumbsup:

smackbringer

10-04-2005, 10:13 PM

Yeah, I took this job because they said they wanted comic book style transitions which I am capable of doing. Then they later said they'd like this cover done. It didn't really sink in at the time how much work it was going to be or how inexperienced I was. Thanks for your candid opinion. I needed to hear that.

Rebeccak

10-04-2005, 10:14 PM

May I ask what a SIGGRAPH meeting is?
SIGGRAPH is a big Computer Graphics organization with an international following.

http://www.siggraph.org/

In addition to one big conference a year (which I attended for the first time this year, it was a blast) they have smaller local chapters that are self~organized and get together occasionally. You should contact Roberto, who posted on this thread, as he is much more involved with the local chapter than I am.

The local meetings are fun, generally social, with some presentations etc. as an excuse to get together with a bunch of other geeks. They're held anywhere from MD to DC to VA locally. Contact Roberto for details.

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

cyartist

10-04-2005, 10:41 PM

Samples sent Pm me. If you need more let me know.

smackbringer

10-05-2005, 03:26 PM

Looks like the producer likes the idea so Cyartist will be probably be working with me on the film. I feel like 200% better. I'm still getting my Wacom Intuos3 6x8.

Thanks for all the help and advice everybody, I really appreciate it. It was good meeting new people as well.