Help needed on purchasing new workstation...

[Gyan]

Originally posted by Faraguay
Hello people!

I'm planning to get a new workstation:

Dell precision 530
Dual Intel Xeon 2,4
1gb (2x512) RDRAM DIMM PC800
NVIDIA QUADRO4 900 XGL
HD SCSI 18gb 10000rpm
Monitor Dell 19" Ultrascan (CRT)
Windows2000 sp2

All for 4300 €

...[snip]

Oh, I'm working with 3dsmax5, Photoshop7 and Combustion2.

Thanks a lot!

First things first, for that price, can't you get a system from Boxx (http://www.boxxtech.com) ?

Now, I'm sure you can get a better system for a lot less.

For example, why do you need the 10000 rpm SCSI ? How about a ATA-100 120GB instead with 8mb buffer ?

If you want RDRAM, you want PC1066, else just go for a DDR333 upwards solution or quite possibly dual DDR (if they're out).

Of course, it is my reflexive instinct to stay away from branded OEM workstations, but that's just me. Companies like BOXX are slightly different.

I'm running max 3.1 on a Radeon 8500DV here and it works just OK. So I'm guessing a GF4 Ti4600 128mb with maxtreme drivers would be fine for you.

But then again, if you have 4300 euros as budget, you could assemble a killer system like Dual AMDs, 2gigs DDR RAM, GF4 Ti4600 or better, 21" CRT...etc

[Sieb]

How about dual Athlon 2200 MPs, 1gig of DDR, Dual 100gig on SATA with Quadro 900 (or a Ti4600 for the same effect for 1/3 the cost) and XP plus your choice of monitor. All that will cost you about 1200 if you built it yourself, or get something along those lines from Boxx. But since most people insist on not building their own and think first or second tier producers prices are good..

-Dell is good if you don't care about price and just want a system.
-SCSI is overrated and overpriced these days unless you are running a server. ATA and new SATA is just as good if not better. Why waste the money for meager 18gig drives when you can get a 200 gig ATA for the same price?
-Stay away from RDRAM, its dead.. Corsair has XMS DDR running at 400mhz
-Xeons, unless they are hyperthreading, they are way overpriced for workstation use. And most software won't use hyperthreading. MPs are better for workstation use, and cheaper.

Sorry, I run a third-tier producer where I consult businesses on system sales. All you are paying for from a name brand is the name. Most don't understand that parts only cost a third or half of of the system cost from name brands. Id just stick with Boxx, they have a decent setup.

[Gyan]

Originally posted by Sieb
How about dual Athlon 2200 MPs, 1gig of DDR, Dual 100gig on SATA with Quadro 900 (or a Ti4600 for the same effect for 1/3 the cost) and XP plus your choice of monitor. All that will cost you about 1200 if you built it yourself, or get something along those lines from Boxx.


Except I just checked on Boxx and a setup similar to what you're suggesting is quoted at $2900 without a monitor.

So, I would just recommend the OP to assemble their own computer (or pay someone say 100-150 bucks to assemble it for them if he's uncomfortable with it.)
For 4300 USD, he can get a top-of-the-line workstation.

[Sieb]

Except I just checked on Boxx and a setup similar to what you're suggesting is quoted at $2900 without a monitor.

Yea, my guestimate was buying the parts an doing it yourself. My system of similar specs is roughly 1200 or so. 2900 is resonable for support and all included.

For 4300 USD, he can get a top-of-the-line workstation.
No doubt..

[Carnifex]

Just as a side note, you're not gonna get the same performance out of a Ti4600 as you will with a Quadro 900.

There are several hardware options that the Quadro supports that are not present in the standard Geforce 4 Ti4600's.

And sofar there is no way to truly enable them either through software hacks, as the difference is this time based on actual hardware differences, not just a simple chip-id.

If you want to be able to use the Maxtreme drivers, go with the Quadro card.

[GregHess]

Quick Notes:

Don't buy a Xeon system right now. The new Xeon's are slated for a Later this week launch, along with price cuts on a variety of Intel chip lines. Best bet with any intel purchases is to wait until next week. (After all the new announcements and chip cuts have settled)

Unless you like wasting a thousand dollars.

[Faraguay]

Wow! This forum is really incredible! You are all incredibly updated in hardware tecnology! Thank you very much!

You have convinced me on getting the dual MP 2200 with 1-2gb DDR and Geforce4 Ti4600... But I'm not sure if get it from Boxx or make it myself... Boxx put on their AMD systems DDR PC2100 ECC... Isn't better at least PC2700?
Which moderboard do you recommend me?
What kind of refrigeration will I need to keep this system stable?

I don't know if i should wait until december to buy this configuration...

Thanks again!!!

[Gyan]

Originally posted by Faraguay
myself... Boxx put on their AMD systems DDR PC2100 ECC... Isn't better at least PC2700?

I don't know if i should wait until december to buy this configuration...



Re: your first question, if I remember correctly, dual CPUs require ECC ram. So, you're looking at around USD 450 for a 1GB PC2700 stick against 350 for PC2100. With your budget, you can afford the faster RAM, I think.

Re: your 2nd question, depends on when you need the system, if you can wait till December and there are reliable reports that prices might drop, then wait.

[Faraguay]

Which model of moderboard does support PC2700 ram? Which one is the best for dual MPs?

[GregHess]

No Dual Athlon Motherboard "natively" supports a 333 FSB. All Dual Athlon boards require PC2100 ECC REGISTERED RAM as Gyan pointed out.

If you put PC2700, PC3000, Or any Unbuffered ram in a Dual Athlon system, you will only be able to use the First Two out of the four dimms available. To make use of ALL four dimms, you MUST use PC2100 REGISTERED ECC DDR.

Its not as if you have a choice...you either do...or you don't. As far as I'm aware, no reputable company is currently producing any registered ECC DDR dimms of any speed faster then PC2100.

Neither Mushkin, Corsair (XMS), no Crucial carry anything faster (registered memory) then PC2100 Registered ECC DDR.


So in quick summary.

No Dual motherboard supports all 4 dimms with anything other then PC2100 Registered ECC.

If you wanted PC2700 DDR support, you'd have to go single cpu, and then a nforce2 board would be your best bet. Check the nforce2 thread in this forum for more information.

[Gyan]

Originally posted by GregHess


Neither Mushkin, Corsair (XMS), no Crucial carry anything faster (registered memory) then PC2100 Registered ECC DDR.


Maybe true, but Samsung does have PC2700 ECC modules out. They may not be Corsair, but they are fairly reliable. Like I quoted earlier, a Samsung PC2700 1GB ECC costs 452 (from pricewatch)

[Gazortus]

Originally posted by Faraguay
Hello people!

I'm planning to get a new workstation:

Dell precision 530
Dual Intel Xeon 2,4
1gb (2x512) RDRAM DIMM PC800
NVIDIA QUADRO4 900 XGL
HD SCSI 18gb 10000rpm
Monitor Dell 19" Ultrascan (CRT)
Windows2000 sp2

All for 4300 €

But I'm not sure about a few components:

Is it worth the money to get RDRAM PC800? Or should I get DDR? What kind of DDR?

The same about the graphic card... Should I get better a QUADRO4 700 or even a GeForce 4? If GeForce4, which one?

I'm thinking even of purchasing dual AMD MPs instead of the Dual Intel XEONs...

I have no idea of what purchase with the best Performance/price (I don't want to exceed the 4200€ if possible...)

Oh, I'm working with 3dsmax5, Photoshop7 and Combustion2.

Thanks a lot!

I'll step in and be devils advocate for a second.

Its a decent machine, its cheaper and maybe better to roll your own if you don't mind being your own tech support. If you don't want to do that get a IBM/Dell/etc with a decent support package so if anything goes wrong a tech guy shows up the same day to swap out parts and what not. It'll save time and money down the road especially if you are depending on the computer for income.

Best thing to do first is to look at the supported hardware for whatever software you use and build your system around that.

Last thing you need is to phone up tech support about a problem and have them flat out deny you help because you are running on an unsupported platform. Bleeding edge technology is great but could have bugs that may take months to resolve. Thats why some firms still buy current dual xeons systems and let someone else worry about the new gear.

The cost is a moot point to an extent, if the machine is for business use you can use it as a tax write off.

[Gyan]

Originally posted by Gazortus

Its a decent machine, its cheaper and maybe better to roll your own if you don't mind being your own tech support. If you don't want to do that get a IBM/Dell/etc with a decent support package so if anything goes wrong a tech guy shows up the same day to swap out parts and what not.


Well, this is a contentious point. Personally, I've never had to rely on tech support more than twice in the last 12 years. It's like warranty and insurance, you pay for peace of mind that there's something as backup should things go wrong. That tech support will actually be needed is minimal provided initially you configure your system with good quality and compatibly working parts. If this initial stage is handled well, tech support in most cases is a non-issue.


Best thing to do first is to look at the supported hardware for whatever software you use and build your system around that.


Now, this is excellent advice. But, in my experience would contradict with your first suggestion(unless you were suggesting this as an alternative to IBM/Dell). Configuring an optimal system and finding just such a configuration from a huge OEM normally don't work out since OEMs as a business strategy never put all their best eggs in one basket except for the most expensive systems. Generally, there tends to be something lacking, and I'm not sure but doesn't upgrading certain parts in your computer yourself void the warranty/support that you advocate in your first point ? If so, then upgrade path is limited to what the OEM wants to offer.


Bleeding edge technology is great but could have bugs that may take months to resolve.


True, although I'm not sure I would say that the OP's config is 'bleeding-edge'.

[GregHess]

Though I know its a matter of personal preference. I don't trust samsung modules.

Thanks though for pointing out their now carrying PC2700 variants.

I believe the MSI and Iwill AMD760MP boards feature a lot of ram timing adjustments, which could make it worthwhile to purchase some faster dimms, just to increase available ram bandwidth through tweaking the cas, ras, and precharge settings.

[Faraguay]

Many thanks for your advices... I think PC2100 is good enough for me actually... maybe 2 gb...

How about processors refrigeration? What do you recommend me?

Thanks again. You are the really masters.:bowdown:

[Gyan]

Originally posted by Faraguay

How about processors refrigeration? What do you recommend me?



Refrigeration ? umm, how about liquid nitrogen ? :-)

Seriously, if the stock cooling isn't enough, a Thermaltake cooler with a nice paste sounds nice. Although, you should wait for that advice from the AMD users here *jab* :)

[GregHess]

The Heatsink recommendation for a Dual Athlon system depends on the board you buying. Some boards are a bit more restrictive around the sockets, and thus you can't use some of the larger model heatsinks (without modification that is).

So after you decide on a board, we'll be happy to help you with recommendations.

[SMH]

Hi,

Greg I'm going for Corsair's PC 3500XMS with SP sink, what do you think? I'm told DDR prices could rise down the road, so I figured I'd just buy what I need now. Too bad Mushkin are not shipping PC3500 yet.

[GregHess]

Fantastic for a Nforce2 board. Remember if you get them for a dual athlon, that you can only use the first two dimms.

Corsair XMS is right up there with Mushkin. The only reason I tend to recommend mushkin higher, is due to their customer service. I do believe that Corsair XMS dimms are actually faster :).

[SMH]

Cool, Thanks Greg.:thumbsup:

:drool: :
http://images2.newegg.com/productimage/20-145-419-01.JPG

[GregHess]

Now thats some ownage. Whats that rated at? Like 440 Megahertz or something rediculous like that?

You can probably put All the DRAM settings at utter maximum levels at 333 FSB. Or overclock till it hits the sun.

[SMH]

Hey Greg,

This is what a Tech-PC reviewer had to say: "I’ve spoken to people who got their XMS3500 C2 to faster than this (DDR450 Stable!), even the dizzy heights of 245 MHz (DDR490!!!)."

Here's the test link: Tech-PC (UK) (http://www.tech-pc.co.uk/xms3500-4.php)

[GregHess]

Lord...Almost 500 megahertz DDR???? Thats faster then some video cards ram :).

[Gyan]

Originally posted by SMH
Hey Greg,

This is what a Tech-PC reviewer had to say: "I’ve spoken to people who got their XMS3500 C2 to faster than this (DDR450 Stable!), even the dizzy heights of 245 MHz (DDR490!!!)."

Here's the test link: Tech-PC (UK) (http://www.tech-pc.co.uk/xms3500-4.php)

hmm, let me see now, how fast my 2700c2 goes.

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