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dfaris
09-24-2005, 05:06 PM
Has anyone played with the new ZB Displacement Exporter yet? Just looking to see if there are any settings that work better with C4D then then the presets they have. I just downloaded it and have not had a chance to play with it.

I'm working with C4D 9.5.

Ernest Burden
09-24-2005, 05:16 PM
Has anyone played with the new ZB Displacement Exporter yet?

Would you please explain what that is, where to find it?

dann_stubbs
09-24-2005, 05:18 PM
Would you please explain what that is, where to find it?

it is an extention to zbrush that allows for much more control over the displacement export - it is only pc at the moment and the mac version is said to be released in the next few days.

go to zbrush central main forum to see the thread about it.

http://206.145.80.239/zbc/forumdisplay.php?f=1

dann

dfaris
09-24-2005, 05:24 PM
Would you please explain what that is, where to find it?


Here you go.
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=029084

Ernest Burden
09-24-2005, 06:15 PM
Thanks, 'd's, I haven't been reading the Zbrush forum lately.

Not that this helps any for the original issue of the thread.

SRCobb
09-24-2005, 07:51 PM
waiting for the Mac version.

But this brings up an interesting topic. I have been playing quite a bit with obj.s and displacement maps exported from Zbrush to C4d, and it works well with spd, but I don't wanna subdivide a mesh more than 4 or 5 times doing that. So I'm wondering, if I go into greater detail with a mesh in Zbrush, could I then export another disp. map from a higher subdivision level and put it in the bump channel?
Would normal maps be the way to go for this sort of thing?

dfaris
09-24-2005, 07:59 PM
waiting for the Mac version.

But this brings up an interesting topic. I have been playing quite a bit with obj.s and displacement maps exported from Zbrush to C4d, and it works well with spd, but I don't wanna subdivide a mesh more than 4 or 5 times doing that. So I'm wondering, if I go into greater detail with a mesh in Zbrush, could I then export another disp. map from a higher subdivision level and put it in the bump channel?
Would normal maps be the way to go for this sort of thing?

Yes divide the heck out of your base model in ZB and export a displacement map and use it in the bump channel or the displacement channel. You could try a normal map but it depends on what you are trying to do. Just make sure you save a morph of the base mesh before you divide it and load the morph back in before you make the displacment map.

SRCobb
09-25-2005, 12:45 AM
You know, I don't get the morph thing. If I'm working on something in zbrush, then go back to a lower level, then save the obj, then the displacement, why would I want that morph?
When I've tried it before, and I go back and switch the morph target, the mesh has been changed so significantly that switching back screws it all up, and it works just fine without it, as far as I can tell.

dfaris
09-25-2005, 05:11 AM
You know, I don't get the morph thing. If I'm working on something in zbrush, then go back to a lower level, then save the obj, then the displacement, why would I want that morph?
When I've tried it before, and I go back and switch the morph target, the mesh has been changed so significantly that switching back screws it all up, and it works just fine without it, as far as I can tell.


Thats why you save the morph. Say you have a head you are working on in c4d you get it just the way you want it. Then youi bring it into ZB for some detailing. If you export the head back out of ZB into C4D you will see that lots of things have changed like the nose my be different and the eyes ect ect. If you load your saved morph and then make the displacement map it will be just the way you had your model in C4D. I dont know what you mean by the mesh gets screwed up? If you started the model in ZB then there is no reason why you need the morph. But if you are working on a model you imported to ZB then you would want to keep the model the same I would think.

SRCobb
09-25-2005, 03:40 PM
yeah, it does make sense if you have a model in C4D that's just the way you want it.
I've just been either starting in zbrush, or exported a very simple model from c4d, so I'm doing a lot of modelling in Zbrush, not just detailing. So when I say the mesh is totally screwed up, I mean that it's been dramatically changed, even at the lowest subdivision level.

dfaris
09-25-2005, 03:46 PM
Ah well you dont have to worry about the morph thing then. But some day if somebody sends you a model they want you to detail in ZB you will know what the morph thing is all about.

wuensch
09-25-2005, 04:33 PM
do your obj exports and imports with free Riptide plugin, the obj handling is seamless than.

For me, I think the Z-Brush map-c4d team already works flawless and I am not sure what kind of improvement the new Z-Exporter has.
The convert-Disp to Normalmap seems pretty cool, hough--


Olli

dfaris
09-25-2005, 05:24 PM
do your obj exports and imports with free Riptide plugin, the obj handling is seamless than.

For me, I think the Z-Brush map-c4d team already works flawless and I am not sure what kind of improvement the new Z-Exporter has.
The convert-Disp to Normalmap seems pretty cool, hough--


Olli

Yeah I'm just trying to find out what bit depth to use that would work best. Going to do some tests.

gginther
10-26-2005, 03:59 PM
Hi Guys,

I've been doing some tests with the new Zbrush Displacement exporter. I'm running into a problem with 32 bit tiffs, as you can see in the attached picture 16 bit seems to work fine but 32 bit displays what looks like holes here and there. I have Displacement set at 10% and SPD at 2 subdivisions.

I'll probably just use the 16 bit for this one since it seems to display ok, but does anyone have any idea what the problem would be with 32 bit?

thanks,

Gray

dfaris
10-26-2005, 04:20 PM
gginther I get the same thing with 32 bit. I dont know why either but the 16 bit works pretty well.

Continuumx
10-26-2005, 05:10 PM
When did our displacement maps get 32 bit map support?

Either I missed this or we only have 16 bit displacement map support.

gginther
10-26-2005, 05:14 PM
yeah, I was wondering about that. I checked the manual and I couldn't find anything specific about bit depth in the section about displacement. The appendix lists 32 bits as being supported for TIFFs, but maybe that doesn't include displacement?

Continuumx
10-26-2005, 06:17 PM
I agree, I know it was release 8.5 or 9 that we got full 16bit displacement map support. I did not think C4D supports 32bit displacements. I could be wrong of course here.

I think that kind of bit depth would be needed of course when Zbrush 2.5 is released and the pixol limit is increased to 20-30 million polygons models.

Zendorf
10-27-2005, 06:49 AM
As far as I understand, the 32bit format is useful mainly for rendering in Mental Ray since it uses an alpha depth factor. You may have noticed that when you create a displacement map in ZB that it gives you this alpha depth factor number in the alpha palette. With the 32bit format, this info is contained in the map.

Whereas in Cinema we are restricted to using a height factor for the amount of displacement. This is a clumsy way of doing it, as you need to guess/eyeball the amount when bringing your ZB map in Cinema. Particularly annoying when you change the size of objects in a scene and have to keep adjusting this height factor accordingly. Would be a great addition to the already superb displacement in C4d if there was an option to use the alpha depth factor instead!

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 07:12 AM
I agree, I know it was release 8.5 or 9 that we got full 16bit displacement map support. I did not think C4D supports 32bit displacements. I could be wrong of course here.

I think that kind of bit depth would be needed of course when Zbrush 2.5 is released and the pixol limit is increased to 20-30 million polygons models.

All channels should support 32bit depth (since more or less forever), and 32bit images since 8.2 (when HDRI import was introduced to C4D). That includes Displacement. However if it's not working then it looks to me like a bug (though i'm unable to recreate the bug here with my own 32bitimages, though they're not generated in z-brush... time to investigate a bit further!).

it should also be noted that the number of polygons has nothing to do with the bit depth. the only factor involved there in traying to get your full detail accross is going to be texture resolution, especially with normal mapping

acmepixel
10-27-2005, 07:10 PM
Maybe there is a "bit" of confusion here.
A 32 bit image is 3-8 bit channels and 1-8bit alpha.
A 16 bit, single channel displacement image is exported by Zbrush.
At the 16 bits per channel level, a full color image is 64 bits; 16 for each of the four channels.

So when you talk about an image you need to specify if it is an 8 bit (32 bit, 4 channel) or a 16 bit (64 bit, 4 channel).

Very confusing, I know.
:thumbsup:

Just to clarify, all bitmaps, 8 bit and up, are greyscale. Each channel is a greyscale channel. So when discussing displacement maps, they are either 8 bit or 16 bit greyscale. A 32 bit color image is 8 bit greyscale (R,G,B,A). A 64 bit color image is 16 bit greyscale (R,G,B,A).

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 08:21 PM
when people are talking about 32bit here 32bit is not 8bit ;) it's HDRI, a real value for each channel the total bit depth for each pixel is in a non alpha situation 96bit and with alpha 128bit, but it's never called that (except in lightwave for some bizarre reason) because you don't know how many channels there will be in an image, while the bit depth per channel is a constant.

acmepixel
10-27-2005, 10:30 PM
Wow, 128 bit!

So R9.5 can open single channel 16 bit images but not 32?

sorry, still confused.

Per-Anders
10-27-2005, 11:00 PM
yes, actually so could all versions since R8.2 provided they were in HDR format (since then a few other formats have gotten in on the 32bit act and are supported).

Continuumx
10-28-2005, 02:32 AM
Thanks again for the help mdme sadie!

kiwi
12-08-2005, 05:35 AM
Can one of you guys help me with a Z Brush prob I am having please.


I had a basic head I made in c4d {uv was set up in BP 3d,cylindrical mapped}.I exported an obj for openng in ZBrush.I did quite a bit of work on the head in ZBrush and saved it,then I exported an obj at sub d4.On opening again in c4d the uvs were all screwed up.The careful cylindrical unwrap was now a very messy cylindrical unwrap.Any ideas?


tia


Heres the head.

gginther
12-08-2005, 02:53 PM
I had a basic head I made in c4d {uv was set up in BP 3d,cylindrical mapped}.I exported an obj for openng in ZBrush.I did quite a bit of work on the head in ZBrush and saved it,then I exported an obj at sub d4.On opening again in c4d the uvs were all screwed up.The careful cylindrical unwrap was now a very messy cylindrical unwrap.Any ideas?

Hi Stu,

several folks at work here have run into this problem before with Zbrush. There's a work around that I've had success with MOST of the time, but it's sort of a crapshoot. After you're done modeling in Zbrush, go back down to your lowest subdivision and export an OBJ. Uncheck the GRP so you don't export groups (other apps are fine with groups but Z won't like them when you try to bring them back in). Lay out your UVs on your low rez OBJ in your editor of choice. Be very careful not to change the verts in any way other than UV info. Go back into Zbrush and load your ZTL model, go down to the lowest subdivision again, and expand the Tool/Import section. Check "Merge Points" and import your OBJ. If everything goes well (you'll know as soon as you try to go up your subD levels) your new obj with UVs will replace the old geometry and your new Uvs will be passed along up to you higher subD's. takes some trial and error, but it can work.

good luck,

Gray

AdamT
12-08-2005, 04:08 PM
Hi Stu,

several folks at work here have run into this problem before with Zbrush. There's a work around that I've had success with MOST of the time, but it's sort of a crapshoot. After you're done modeling in Zbrush, go back down to your lowest subdivision and export an OBJ. Uncheck the GRP so you don't export groups (other apps are fine with groups but Z won't like them when you try to bring them back in). Lay out your UVs on your low rez OBJ in your editor of choice. Be very careful not to change the verts in any way other than UV info. Go back into Zbrush and load your ZTL model, go down to the lowest subdivision again, and expand the Tool/Import section. Check "Merge Points" and import your OBJ. If everything goes well (you'll know as soon as you try to go up your subD levels) your new obj with UVs will replace the old geometry and your new Uvs will be passed along up to you higher subD's. takes some trial and error, but it can work.

good luck,

Gray

Good tip! But honestly I can't remember having ZBrush mess up a UV map, unless I've somehow changed the point count.

dfaris
12-08-2005, 04:27 PM
Can one of you guys help me with a Z Brush prob I am having please.


I had a basic head I made in c4d {uv was set up in BP 3d,cylindrical mapped}.I exported an obj for openng in ZBrush.I did quite a bit of work on the head in ZBrush and saved it,then I exported an obj at sub d4.On opening again in c4d the uvs were all screwed up.The careful cylindrical unwrap was now a very messy cylindrical unwrap.Any ideas?


tia


Heres the head.

I think you sould export the base mesh again to keep the UVs in C4D correct. If you sub divide the mesh in ZB and export a higher rez mesh how does C4D know what to do with the new points? Or you can export a displacment map and use that on the low rez mesh in C4D. Are you sure you did not change the uv map in ZB?

kiwi
12-08-2005, 09:16 PM
Thanks everyone :)


Cheers Gray I will definitely try that.


dfaris - I only used the divide method in ZBrush,I am way to green with ZBrush to be playing with uv options....{about my second time using zbrush,first working on a mesh}


For the new points/polys and how does c4d know what to do with them.I assumed its like in say c4d you lay out your uvs and if you sub d the mesh it just sub divides the normal uvs as well.You have the same uv layout just many more to work with.


What would be ideal is a Z normal map or even bump map that I can make a normal map of in c4d.



One other odd thing was its {Zbrush obj head} sub d to 4 was fine but when I went to 5 It started getting very weird unhappy verts popping up in a couple of areas.I tried smoothing them down again but it wouldnt work.I am thinkng maybe its an open gl issue.I just bought an x800xt and I have 4g ram.


Cheers

Stu.

dfaris
12-08-2005, 09:58 PM
I would post over in the ZB form. Not the one here on CG society but over at pixologic those guys will have an answer for you Im sure. There may already be something there for you to read over.

talos72
12-12-2005, 06:26 PM
From what I gather someone is indeed writing a whole guide on how to go back and forth between ZBrush and C4D. It is part of a series of workflow guids (ZPipeline Guides) they have been writing with other software. I find all this talk about uv's and bitmaps confusing, and hope there would be a reliable methode to transfer models and maps between the two apps.

You can find the ZPipeline thread under ZBrush Tutorials Forum. If you want to find out more about the status on the guide you can post questions there also.

wuensch
12-12-2005, 06:33 PM
Can one of you guys help me with a Z Brush prob I am having please.


I had a basic head I made in c4d {uv was set up in BP 3d,cylindrical mapped}.I exported an obj for openng in ZBrush.I did quite a bit of work on the head in ZBrush and saved it,then I exported an obj at sub d4.On opening again in c4d the uvs were all screwed up.The careful cylindrical unwrap was now a very messy cylindrical unwrap.Any ideas?


tia


Heres the head.


Does not look messy to me, but I bet you had the optimize UV on in Z-Brush on export---
Also:
When exporting to Z-Brush if not using Z-Brushs optimal mapping, before modelling make a checkUV in Z-Brush and see if there are any overlaps (I think thats red then--).
Always make sure (unless you want to use Z-Brush automatic UV) that the UVs are clean i Z-Brush.
anything else is inviting trouble.
If you for some reason cannot optimize further, make sure Z does not mess with the UV by de-activating the optimization option.

--oh, and use Riptide for Im-Export to not change point order (does not affect the UVs though, they are correct with c4d im-exporter too).

Olli

Olli

wuensch
12-12-2005, 06:39 PM
confusing, and hope there would be a reliable methode to transfer models and maps between the two apps.


actually UVs are reliable.
Unless geometrie or Uvs gets changed in the Apps its the best method and production proven, too;-)

Of course there are a couple of possible fountains of trouble, especially those optimize settings in Z.
Personally, I always use the Z-Brush optimal UVs for Displacement, as they are 100% distortion free.

If I need different UVs for Bodypaint, I put the Displacement in Cinema in a new Material and Material Tag with the ZB-UV and do the other texture channels in a second UV in Cinema--
best of both worlds then.

Oh, and as for Subdividing:
Z-Brush is very easy there.
If you subdivide a quad,, the new UVs are always inside that quad.
Unless you mess with the UVs after you can use that tooutput a hires-non displaced copy for texturing help in Bodypaint for example, when the textures are painted for a Displacementmapped mesh--

Olli

tonare
02-14-2006, 04:57 AM
CAn someone tell me how it import an obj file into zbrush?

All I see is jpeg, psd, bmp ect for importing or maybe this is a limitation since I just have the learning edition.

I know there was a thread on here about c4d to zbrush and back, but I cant remember the name of the thread.

tia.

Matariki
02-15-2006, 08:32 AM
I can't help you with the thread. But to import an Obj file use the import command in the Tools palette. You might have to set a few parameters to get all vertices welded etc but from memory it works straight out of the box.

LucentDreams
03-01-2006, 02:50 PM
Hehehe Chi and MercySeverity are clealry not keeping an eye on all the right discussions at the moment, goog thing I looked in here. I'll try and answer all these questions as best I can since the Pipeline guide is still not available from the site yet, Pixologic has the document pretty much formatted, I know they were still doing some editing within but I'll Check if theres any official status on the document for you guys as well.


First of All cinema 4D does support 32 bit displacements, whether it be single channel or 3 channels also doens't matter, they main reason your not getting ideal results would be because of HDR Gamma. By DEfault cinema sets itself to whatever your monitor is set at, 1.8 for macs, and 2.2 for PC's. ZBrush however uses 1.0 for its gamma so the height is defined by the true intensity of each pixel. it it was to use a different gamma results would be less predictable. Set HDR gama to 1.0 and it should be the most accurate displacements you can get.

Tcobb, yes you can use a lower subdivision for your displacement map, and then use a normal or bump map to get the high fidelity detail. The key thing I'l point out here imo is that if your going to use bumps your going to want a Dsub Pix that gets your mesh to at least 7 subdivisions if possible (so five and 2 DSubpix for example, or 4 and 3 DSubpix) I'd seriously recommend normal maps over bumps if you have 9.5. They look 100 tiumes better for the same render hit. Its better to use the normal maps from Zmapper then the normal maps from ADE though. the only advantage ADE offers is the ability to export normal maps for multi objects all at one time, but honeslty there is a definite noticable quality difference, also cinema's Tangent maps seems to be extra sensitive to seams and I find they appear more often with the ADE then with the Zmapper. Remember that Tangent Normal maps are the ones that work on deformed meshes, ADE can only export Tangent normal maps as far as I know (not 100% sure though, would have to check with my experts ;) )

The morph thing is a very misunderstood function, its a little confusing to use or course, but the worst part is that most people don't realize why and when its needed, so many people do it when they are better of not doing it. Only use the storeMT if you need to return to your original mesh because its being used somewhere else in pieline already, say its already being textured or rigged elsewhere. Otherwise its actually WORSE to use the original, and BETTER to use the modified mesh in ZBrush. That modified mesh is actuall trying to make the low res mesh fit closer in proximity to the highres, just reducing the amount of displacement and distortion. You'll always have better results form the modified low res then the original. Some studio pipelines won't allow for this as that model needs to be used further down while the ZBrushing is being doen, I doubt most freelancers and hobbiests are in the same boat.



Back on the 32 bit discussion. the biggest advantage to 32 bit as someone hinted in reference to Mental Ray, is that the Alpha depth Factor setting in Zbrush no longer applies. Since the image can store a full range there isn't a need to optimize the range to get the ideal quality to height ratio. If your using 32 bit with cinema, make sure to use Auto, NOT Depth Factor or Auto+Depth Factor. They simply cause more problems and confusion. Auto will produce a perfectly fine map. Also, don't think that 32 bit is the only way to get around the whole Depth Factor thing, and get higher fidelity then a 16 bit image. You guys have have a huge advantage over all other apps by using cinema. No cumbersome shader tree fandangling or plugins needed to read Red/Green displacement maps. these also don't need to rely much on Depth Factor. Depth Factor can improve the detail some, but Auto is usually more then acceptable. The reason for this is the range is only defined from center to high and a seperate value for center to low rather then low to high. It Then generates two seperate greyscale heightmaps, and stores one in the red channel and one in the green channel. Cinema just happens to support these types of displacements natively (set it to Red/green mode) This is the equivalent of using two seperate 16 bit displacement maps, one for positive and one for negative, but in a single file. I've yet to encounter a file in all our tests at LucentDreams where Red/Green didn't lok just as good as the 32 bit, but the files sure are smaller, especially since the third channel (blue) has no data in it.



For Specific quickcode and more detailed instructions you'll have to Wait for MercySeverity's ZPipeline guide to go up on pixologic's site.

If you want information on how to make Cavity Maps, check out the Maya Zpipeline guide. The Cinema guide only mentions that its better and faster to make Cavity maps using the ZMapper plugin, the Maya guide explains the more tedious manual way of doing it (which is how thigns had to be done before Zmapper.) It was well written so it was best not to repeat the whole thing since theres honeslty a better way of doing it now anyways.

talos72
03-24-2006, 09:15 PM
For Specific quickcode and more detailed instructions you'll have to Wait for MercySeverity's ZPipeline guide to go up on pixologic's site.

I regularly check Pixologic and Zbrush Central for the C4D ZPipeline release. Anyone have any idea as to when it might happen?

LucentDreams
03-26-2006, 12:07 AM
Mercy and I were at the Maxon booth at GDC, and the folks from Pixologic were kind enough to pay us a visit. They said one more of the technical editors has to go through it and then it should be ready to go.

talos72
03-26-2006, 02:11 AM
That is good news Kai. Thanks for keeping us posted. :) Looking foreward to the guide.

LucentDreams
04-08-2006, 08:57 PM
Talos already opened a new thread on this in the regular area, but for those involved in this discussion who were interested and waiting, the guidline is already available on ZCentrl though not on the maxon or Pixologic sites yet. http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?p=240832#post240832

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