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cesarmontero
09-02-2005, 06:24 PM
Hi guys, I'm trying to find out how to make a realistic looking diamond in lightwave. I know it is possible because I have seen some renders of them before, done in lightwave. However, I been having problems in finding out resources, and tutorials to do this. I would appreciate any help that you may give me in order to make this happen.

Thanks ;)

monovich
09-02-2005, 07:03 PM
I know it's a plugin, but spectrum would probably help:

http://www.evasion3d.com/sp_lw_gallery.html

cesarmontero
09-02-2005, 07:14 PM
I know it's a plugin, but spectrum would probably help:

http://www.evasion3d.com/sp_lw_gallery.html

Thanks..but..
I forgot to say I want to create it using merely fprime.
I saw a tutorial some time ago, now I can't find it.

monovich
09-02-2005, 07:44 PM
are you looking for modeling or texturing/lighting info?

cesarmontero
09-02-2005, 07:51 PM
are you looking for modeling or texturing/lighting info?

I guess that both, but more importantly the surfacing.
Maybe both are related to give a nice realistic result...?

jabbermike
09-02-2005, 08:00 PM
Dave Jerrard had a tutorial about diamonds. The site is down now. But I read somewhere that the tutorials are hosted somewhere else now.

And there was a nice tutorial about gems in a back issue of Keyframer Magazin.


mike

monovich
09-02-2005, 08:04 PM
just out of curiosity, have you checked that ice diamond thread plugged at the top of the main mage with those amazing renders of ice? I know it's in MAX or whatever, but he used very basic, very fast techniques to make that ice. You may want to check that out if you hadn't.

-s

jabbermike
09-02-2005, 08:10 PM
Modeler has a built in Gemstone Tool (Create -> Primitives -> Gemstone).

mike

monovich
09-02-2005, 08:25 PM
I did this a while back with the gemstone tool. I just used lots of refraction and specularity and maybe a good HDR for added reflections. It's never got 100% realistic but with more work it would work pretty well. I think some good post work would help with gemstones, too.

Zarathustra
09-02-2005, 08:52 PM
Diamond Models (http://www.3dlapidary.com/HTML/Models.htm)

cesarmontero
09-02-2005, 09:00 PM
Thanks a lot for the replies!!

just out of curiosity, have you checked that ice diamond thread plugged at the top of the main mage with those amazing renders of ice? I know it's in MAX or whatever, but he used very basic, very fast techniques to make that ice. You may want to check that out if you hadn't.

-s


I don't quite understand his little tutorial.

What I can get from it, is that he used a planar surface on the back, he made it invisible to camera. Then he putted 100% refraction to the object (how does that translates to lightwave?). He also used an hdri to light it up. I can also see that he used a bumpmap to make it look scratched.

Whoever wants to jump in an eaxplain to translate this to lightwave is welcomed. I'm pretty bad with texturing.

Carm3D
09-02-2005, 09:11 PM
Don't forget to make your air layer! :bounce:

cesarmontero
09-02-2005, 09:14 PM
Don't forget to make your air layer! :bounce:

Yup, almost forgot that one :)
So what I understood from the "little tutorial" was ok?

blaqDeaph
09-03-2005, 01:10 AM
Check out:

http://www.auroragrafx.com/LWresources/LW_Presets/GemStones/Presets_Gemstones.shtml

for some nice gemstones (including diamond) presets. You can play with them to suit your taste.

KevinJM
09-03-2005, 01:39 AM
May be this can help :thumbsup: :

http://www.dbki.de/tutorials/eng/chromatic/index.htm

Heliodor
09-03-2005, 02:06 AM
I did some stuff in Cinema 4D some time ago. Maybe it can help you.

A really short Tutorial for modelling a brilliant cut gemstone:
http://www.see3.de/tuts/Brilli/index_E.html

Some finished models of different gemstones:
http://www.see3.de/models/gems/gemstones.html

And finally some material settings for a diamond (in C4D of course). May you can adapt for use in Lightwave.
http://www.see3.de/tuts/Diamond/

cesarmontero
09-03-2005, 02:17 AM
Hey, thanks a lot guys!
I'll give it a try this week to all the techniques of the links.
I'll post my results here for you to see
:)

what_happened
09-03-2005, 03:35 AM
Fun. I gave it a go.. here is the result.

Carm3D
09-03-2005, 03:51 AM
If you want to go really nuts you can play with the diffusion of light rays.

Make your lightsource change colours through the spectrum over the course of one frame. Then have your refraction index change over the course of one frame (similar to the spinning light trick). This will yeild prism effects.

cesarmontero
09-03-2005, 04:45 AM
Fun. I gave it a go.. here is the result.

That looks REALLY nice man!
What technique did you use?
Care to share how you did it?
(I'm guessing that it is done in lightwave)

Carm3d, What you say sounds interesting...
but I'm still on the basics!
I'm really facinated by the theme
:)

cesarmontero
09-03-2005, 08:06 AM
Here is my first attempt.
It is still with noise.
It is a direct render with FPrime.
I will let it render more to see if there is any difference.

3d3
09-03-2005, 09:41 AM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259883&highlight=Surfacing+Caustics

maybe the link above will help? gerardo supplied excellent suggestions to a gem stone look.

Carm3D
09-03-2005, 01:18 PM
I just made this image with the technique I described above.

http://www.carm3d.net/Images/LightDispersion.JPG

Bear in mind the light colour changing should have a duration of half a frame, as blur length is 50% by default.

I rendered this with HD_Caustics (http://www.happy-digital.com/cowstic.asp) for the fakey caustic shadows.

gerardo
09-04-2005, 12:09 AM
Nice renders, guys! :thumbsup:
César, I think you almost got it. Seems that in these materials 50% of the effect relapses in the reflected environment and in how to enhance these reflections. Maybe this thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259883
give you some ideas too (besides there you'll find the Jerrard's tutorial about gems) :)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-04-2005, 05:00 AM
Gerardo:
I don't know if it is cgtalk, or the link is broken.
I'll give it a try again later, perhaps the server is just busy.

Carm3d:
I understand the logics behind what you say.
I just don't know how to execute it on lightwave.
Could you post some screenshots of the process?

Here is another render.
I forgot to say, I use FPrime, so no shaders allowed.

Carm3D
09-04-2005, 10:57 AM
This is a screenshot of the envelope for the light colour.

Note they they all repeat, and the spectrum has the duration of a half of a frame (from -2 to -1.5). It looks funky while you render, seeing your scene in various colours. But when you render with motion blur and extreme enhanced AA, the resulting image has very natural lighting (not perfectly white, but close).

Ed Bittner
09-04-2005, 03:10 PM
Ogo-Hikari has a preset for diamonds.


E.

cesarmontero
09-04-2005, 09:28 PM
This is a screenshot of the envelope for the light colour.

Note they they all repeat, and the spectrum has the duration of a half of a frame (from -2 to -1.5). It looks funky while you render, seeing your scene in various colours. But when you render with motion blur and extreme enhanced AA, the resulting image has very natural lighting (not perfectly white, but close).

Thanks carm3d.
Thanks for posting the screenshoot.
The idea here is to come up with solutions to make diamonds, and their process (not only renders).
:)

Ogo-Hikari
I'm using FPrime, so I guess it can't be used with fprime?

cesarmontero
09-04-2005, 11:28 PM
Carm3d:

I did the envelope on the graph editor.
Is there anyway to save it?

Also, I'm using fprime, so how should I render the scene?(At what frame)
I can see the change in color at every fraction of the scene happen.
I'm using 50% motion blur.
I remember you saying to change the refraction limit
How much and from what frame to what frame?

thanks! :)

Carm3D
09-05-2005, 12:37 AM
I did the envelope on the graph editor.
Is there anyway to save it?
They will be saved with the scene. But if you want to save the envelope to a seperate file, right click on it (in the list on the left of the graph editor) and choose save as. You'll need to do this once for each channel you wish to save.

Also, I'm using fprime, so how should I render the scene?(At what frame)

I was under the impression that FPrime does support motion blur. I set my camera to Enhanced Extreme AA (32-passes). Since the envelopes repeat, you can render it at any frame. 0 is a popular choice.

I remember you saying to change the refraction limit
How much and from what frame to what frame?

Experiment. Try this setting: 200% (which makes a setting of 2.0) at frame -2, and 600% at frame -1.5

The reason why I do these things at frame -2 instead of frame 0 is that I find that Lightwave renders the first frame of these kinds of things differently than the rest of the animation. So putting them before frame 0 avoids any weirdness in an animation. Also be sure your scene's frame rate is set to 30 fps (not 29.97).

The idea here is to come up with solutions to make diamonds, and their process (not only renders).

Well good luck with that. I'm telling you how to get rainbow artifacting in refraction.

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 12:53 AM
Thanks a lot carm3d !!!
Your help is very much appreciated!
Once i get this, i want to put everything into a file for everyone to see and learn.
:thumbsup:

I'll give it a try tonight ;)

gerardo
09-05-2005, 04:53 AM
Gerardo:
I don't know if it is cgtalk, or the link is broken.

mmm... strange, works well here.



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 05:02 AM
mmm... strange, works well here.



Gerardo
Yup, it works back again.
I forgot to mention it
:)

gerardo
09-05-2005, 06:09 AM
So you don't find anything new there?



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 06:38 AM
So you don't find anything new there?
Gerardo

I first tried out the "ancient" technique pdf file.
The results don't look appealing when using HDRI.
So I took the same approach of that tutorial, along
some modifications that aurora's presets use.

My result was the one of the last render.
It is still crystal-like.

So I tried carm3d's approach, and it works without fprime.
I also realized the coloring does happens depending on the lighting in real life.
However, it is not that coloring what makes a realistic diamond render.
It does look pretty, but it is not part of the realistic effect.
I realized about this when searching the web for reference photos.
There are a lot of pictures of diamonds that do not show that coloring.

So, if there are photos of diamonds that do not show this, the effect is not essential.
This made me think there are other aspects on the surface that makes the diamond look real.

I'll experiment and observe, to come up with a more realistic reflection-refraction.

gerardo
09-05-2005, 09:38 AM
I first tried out the "ancient" technique pdf file.
The results don't look appealing when using HDRI.
So I took the same approach of that tutorial, along
some modifications that aurora's presets use.

My result was the one of the last render.
It is still crystal-like.

mmm... I see

So I tried carm3d's approach, and it works without fprime.
I also realized the coloring does happens depending on the lighting in real life.
However, it is not that coloring what makes a realistic diamond render.
It does look pretty, but it is not part of the realistic effect.
I realized about this when searching the web for reference photos.
There are a lot of pictures of diamonds that do not show that coloring.

So, if there are photos of diamonds that do not show this, the effect is not essential.
This made me think there are other aspects on the surface that makes the diamond look real.

I'll experiment and observe, to come up with a more realistic reflection-refraction.

If you realize, the pictures of real diamonds that don't have those "colorations", or looks like metal, or crystal, or just glass, or worst, plastic; they don't evoke in our perception the image of a diamond; are exactly those colorations, the material depth and those sparkles what make recognizable a real diamond (just ask to any woman, they are expert in this topic :) ). And this is because like says that ancient tutorial:

"The Fresnel effects will generate more
intense reflections around the edges of the
gemstone, adding some much-needed sparkle.
However, there is still one thing missing. Physical
gems tend to diffract light into its color components,
creating brilliantly colored internal reflections.
LightWave does not support this phenomenon,
though it can be simulated"

These brilliantly colored internal reflections are even more notorious in diamonds being also known as chromatic aberrations in reflections (that is different to refractions, technique proposal in LW-FIN that I also linked in that thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259883)). This effect was solved in that time by Dave Jerrard with Interference_shader, you can adapt it today with colored incidence_angle gradients so that it works with FPrime. Another way is with Da_Duke's technique that I mention in that same thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259883). Basically is the same technique proposed by LW-FIN but applied in surface color (taking advantage of ColorFilter as well), with which we can simulate that same effect successfully.
Another interesting link mentioned in that thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259883) and in this same, are the Aurora's presets. One of the most interesting things in his presets and document is his Ray_Recursion_Limit table, if you notice, he recommends 24 for diamond; reason? because that offers bigger depth to material through refraction (I guess exist another way to achieve or simulate a bigger number of interactions of light rays). Another aspect shown in that thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=259883) are the sparkles, what really does look pretty; we can commonly achieve it not using Limit Dynamic Range, adding some type of glow filter in LW or post.
Also, be aware about LW-FIN technique may blur your refractions (and indeed it does it), at least a way to solve it is making two versions of this object and check unseen_by_camera option for the object that projects caustics, and use it more appropriately for the other object seen by camera.



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 10:35 AM
Thanks for the links Gerardo!
I will disect them, and apply the knowledge on them as needed.

Coloring do exist on diamonds, I'm positive about that.
It is however not the main factor to make a diamond look photo-real.
I'll first strive to make a diamond look photo-real without coloring.
That is, a diamond shown as many pictures out there.
Then I will put the coloring, and make it look real
Coloring is just one part of the diamond, and not the diamond itself.

So I will first make a realistic refraction-reflection of a diamond.
Then, I will add bloom and other effects.

Thanks for the support :thumbsup:

gerardo
09-05-2005, 11:34 AM
Sure, is because these effects:
Material depth effect (provided by high refraction and RayRecursionLimit)
Sparkles (provided by dynamic range images and glow effects)
Chromatic Aberrations in Refractions
Chromatic Aberrations in Internal Reflections
help us to make realistic refraction-reflection of a diamond.
note also these effects and colorations aren't just a decoration, are a real light reflection phenomena. The good thing about techniques proposed above is that this effect reacts according to environment (which is in where relapses almost the 50% of the effect), that means if your environment lacks color or saturation, your chromatic aberrations in internal reflections behaves according to that, and this effect will be not very notorious but subtle. As you know, that is the reason why environment is so important in the final effect
Maybe what lacks here is an alternative approach to enhance the effect of material depth (refraction) :)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 04:21 PM
I will have to give it a try today :)

habañero
09-05-2005, 06:32 PM
Here´s a quickie, experiment with exaggerated values and Fprime caustics.

I used color gradient on a light incidence pointing downwards on the dieamond, and some proc. noise since I didn´t fancy the initial results too hard.

Render time is about the time it takes to cook saddle of lamb with figs and fennel :thumbsup:

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 06:40 PM
Here´s a quickie, experiment with exaggerated values and Fprime caustics.

I used color gradient on a light incidence pointing downwards on the dieamond, and some proc. noise since I didn´t fancy the initial results too hard.

Render time is about the time it takes to cook saddle of lamb with figs and fennel :thumbsup:

Very nice man.
The reflections are kind of hard, but your results are better than mine.
Care to share the process and presets if possible? :p

cesarmontero
09-05-2005, 10:33 PM
I have been reading the thread of gerardo, and i have to say i forgot to read some of the links there. I think I will need to read them all before trying to achieve better results! :)

habañero
09-06-2005, 12:11 AM
Well thanks, it could be far worse with a lil more work though :D

The idea was that what is so special about a diamond is it´s brilliance, the cutting etc is designed to return as much light as possible and so the gradients add up to like 140% instead of 100. I also got seemingly better results with refraction of 5 instead of 2.4.

Most of the pictures of diamonds people see are Ads, I think they are often photoshopped to look brighter and so it is not strange if the "real" settings don´t look bright enough.

The caustics is a 100 000 value on specularity. I´m not sure if the high lightning quality setting made a difference or not, if you are gonna use the settings I also think the color band setting wasn´t perfecto, I had to cook ...

The HDR I used is the kitchen probe 1-9 from LW8 content.

cesarmontero
09-06-2005, 12:19 AM
Thanks for sharing habañero! :thumbsup:
I'll see your solution, and hope to get something too to share here :)

cesarmontero
09-06-2005, 01:42 AM
Here is the result of habañero's presets, with some tweaking on them.
The render that has a brown color is the direct render.
The other one is a photoshoped version, with some glow on it.
I'll keep eperimenting

cesarmontero
09-06-2005, 04:14 AM
Here is anotherone.
The caustics are fake, as well as the bloom
They where added on PS.

cesarmontero
09-06-2005, 05:29 AM
playing...

gerardo
09-06-2005, 07:04 AM
Hey César! I like more your last test so far (maybe glow is too bright and a little of color reflections might enhance it) but looks overally realistic :) In that test, are caustics faked too?



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-06-2005, 07:35 AM
Hey César! I like more your last test so far (maybe glow is too bright and a little of color reflections might enhance it) but looks overally realistic :) In that test, are caustics faked too?

Gerardo

They are too bright as you say.
I was testing mostly the forms of the reflections.
It is now time to focus on their contrast.
Then i will put the coloring :)

The caustics are part from the render, and part fake on photoshop.
I also made the DOF on photoshop, as well as the bloom and hue-saturation
A lot of photoshop so far.
I will try to cut it off as soon as I get a better grip on the diamond surface contrast inside LW.
I'll continue tomorrow, too much diamond for today.
Thanks for the support :)

Vojislav+Milanovic
09-06-2005, 10:00 AM
From Dave Jerrard's LW applied 5.6 (well, it's old i kow but it still works)
Apply Thin Film shader.
Color Mixing: Blend
Setttings:
Gemstone Primary Angle
Ruby 780 -150
Sapphire 430 50
Topaz 620 -20
Amethyst 380 70

monovich
09-06-2005, 05:21 PM
these diamonds are looking great, guys. fun to watch for sure.

habañero
09-06-2005, 06:47 PM
Hey, those potatochopped caustics and stuff is almost cheating!! But damn very nice ... :p

Did a little more fiddle on this today, using normal incidence and lotsa repeated transitions in both color and glossyness gradients, way more realistic results and This way the .pst should work outta the box.

It is basically faking caustics, a dieamond is the most eh ... caustic-generating stone in the world and the cutting is designed to empasize this so it might be an idea to adjust the cutting if the results aint coming out rigt (or fake it with higher refraction index).

The preset is for Fprime caustics, that only will show up in full radiosity and are well, not extremely realistic. Obviously adjust specular and glossiness settings for a normal LW render. To finetune the effect for a still, try layer opacity and shifting/scaling values on the two mentioned gradients. It seems it is probably better to just make the caustics in post or a mix. Still some potential to it I guess, in particular I now used just r-g-b gradients that I think look more the way you expect them too but maybe not so realistic.

Now I don´t know about todays render, but if the caustics sortof misfired with all that noise it´s interesting that you can see the colour gradients in them some places :)

gerardo
09-07-2005, 09:49 AM
They are too bright as you say.
I was testing mostly the forms of the reflections.
It is now time to focus on their contrast.
Then i will put the coloring :)

Yeah, your reflections and refractions are ready :thumbsup:


The caustics are part from the render, and part fake on photoshop.
I also made the DOF on photoshop, as well as the bloom and hue-saturation
A lot of photoshop so far.
I will try to cut it off as soon as I get a better grip on the diamond surface contrast inside LW.
I'll continue tomorrow, too much diamond for today.
Thanks for the support :)

I notice for LW reflections contrast, we need to play with the HDRI (HDRExposure and/or FPGamma). About caustics, I think is a little bit harder to get that effect with FPrime yet; maybe you may want to make that part with LW render engine?

Btw, I made this test:

http://www.geocities.com/gerardstrada/diamond.txt

with Interference shader (for internal reflections colorations) and LW-FIN technique (duplicated object for chromatic aberrations); I've noticed refraction index is very important according to diamond shape (may change the look drastically)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-07-2005, 10:46 AM
That is a great diamond!
Would you mind in sharing the more about technique/preset with us?
We are making some very nice results here!
Keep thos diamonds comming guys!

gerardo
09-08-2005, 04:35 AM
Thanks César,
my settings were these:

The Model
I used this gemstone (http://www.3dlapidary.com/Zip/GrmTzar1.zip)
(copy, flip and assign new surface for the air polys)
Make two copies of this object (one for diamond, other for caustics)

The Surface
For the diamond seen by camera, the external surface has a neutralized blued color, an incidence_angle gradient in Specularity and Reflection, Transparency 99%, Translucency 20%, an envelope in refraction index (the most important, I think) between 200% and 242% (this may change depending on diamond shape). For internal colorations in reflections I use Interference shader with its parameters by default (maybe you can replace this, for FPrime, with an incidence_angle gradient with colors parameters between 42° and 50°, using alpha at 0% for gradient ends). The air surface is just 100% transparent, refraction index = 1.0
For diamond that projects caustics, the external surface has Da_Duke's technique for chromatic aberrations, which is to apply the same light envelopes (RGB) shared in LW-FIN, but in color channel of this surface (ColorFilter 100%), Translucency 20%, Transparency 99%, and other envelope in refraction index between 152% and 242% (this is this way because that allow us more range to bend the light). Air surface is 100% transparent, RI=1.0 as well.

Scene setup
A flat plane and two diamonds, the first is seen by camera and unseen by caustics and other is unseen by camera but seen by caustics.

Environment
I used a HDRI (latitude/longitude panorama) in Textured Environment (Spherical Projection) this HDRI has HDREposure applied, I also played with saturation (desaturating)

Lighting
I prefer to diminish the transparency value at 0% to do this part, I used a distant light (only Affect Specular), and I played until my specular highlights looks good in OpenGL (then we can re-adjust the transparency value again). Btw, this light is optional.
Then I added an area light to almost backlight the model (in grazed angle which provides interesting lighting effects), but what matter here is that the shadow looks good; if we are worried about render times, we can replace this light with two spinning spotlights (adjusting its shadows color), but with FPrime an area light is ok. The diamond that is unseen by camera is excluded from this light.
The last light is an spotlight (shadows OFF), this light is for caustics ( and have the envelope trick proposed in LW-FIN. I moved this light too (pre&post behavior repeat), this motion depends on the shape we want for our caustics.
my caustics settings:
Intensity: 20
Accuracy: 300
Softness: 10

Camera
24 mm (film back size: default 35mm motion picture)
I used 100% Motion Blur (if we want to use 50%, we need to set our envelopes with fractional keyframes, changing the frame 1 by 0.5)
I also used X-DOF for dof effect (its bug with transparent surfaces isn't notorious here, is a really nice plugin)

Render
Ray Trace Shadows, Ray Trace Reflections, Ray Trace Refractions
Ray Recursion Limit: 16 (I know, I know... this should be 24)

Those are basically my settings, hope you share yours :)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-08-2005, 07:16 AM
Hey, that is an extensive explanation!
Thanks for it!

This is an FPrime render.
I realized that a normal lightwave render as you say, can show the coloring with the shader.
However, I realized that in fprime this coloring doesn't appears.
So I simulate the same effect using incidence angles and coloring.
I didn't use the native F9 because I can't afford the render times.
Then I duplicate the same diamond and positioned inside.
This adds extra reflection.
The surface is not really that complex.
It is habañeros last preset, with my change in coloration based on incidence angle.
I'll try to tweak it even more to have a more satisfactory result.


As far as my lighting, I'm using kitchen HDRI, and one area light.
The bloom is PS as well as the DOF.

Tell me what you think about guys!
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/small.jpg

Carm3D
09-08-2005, 08:57 AM
Damn that looks good.. What's the secret to all those intricate details? Ray recursion limits?

cesarmontero
09-08-2005, 09:08 AM
Damn that looks good.. What's the secret to all those intricate details? Ray recursion limits?

Hey Carm3D!
I positioned another diamond inside the diamond, with a smaller size.
Then I created a gradient of color at the air surface, to simulate the rainbow effect.
Here is a closeup of the same diamond.
I'll keep working on it to improve it

Thanks again for your support Carm3D!:)


http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/render-big.jpg

gerardo
09-08-2005, 09:25 AM
Hey Carm3D!
I positioned another diamond inside the diamond, with a smaller size.
Then I created a gradient of color at the air surface, to simulate the rainbow effect.
Here is a closeup of the same diamond.
I'll keep working on it to improve it

Thanks again for your support Carm3D!:)


WOW! really impresive! is like if had a lot of little diamonds inside :thumbsup:
Interesting technique too, just two questions: if I understand well, you haven't flipped your polygons or used refraction index at 1 for the inside diamond?
how much is your render time? I can't afford longer render times too. Here is less than 4 minutes on a P4 2Ghz (320x240)
Thanks for sharing :)



Gerardo

Carm3D
09-08-2005, 09:33 AM
Very crafty!

Did this inner diamond have both regular and air polygons? I'm guessing the inner diamond wasn't flipped to make it like a hollow diamond, but rather dual-layered.

Did the inner diamond have a different "cut" than the outer diamond? I'm thinking it does just by looking at it.

I don't know why you'd have to keep refining it.. Any client should be very happy with that.

cesarmontero
09-08-2005, 09:37 AM
WOW! really impresive! is like if had a lot of little diamonds inside :thumbsup:

What really makes a diamond shine, is the actual reflection of itself.
The better the cuts on it, the more the light bounces inside before getting out.
Normally fake diamonds can be detected because they lack this property.
You can see through them more easily than a real diamond.
I took this angle since this way it is easy to know if the aberrations are going correctly.
There is a certain size of aberration formed withing a diamond, and it
could be easily measured from this view.


Interesting technique too, just two questions: if I understand well, you haven't flipped your polygons or used refraction index at 1 for the inside diamond?

I flipped my polygons, but I never merged the points.
I'm using an Air or 1.0 refraction.
Th refraction index for the outside iis of 7.
The bigger it gets, the more detail you get.
I balanced this along the internal diamond to get the effect.


how much is your render time? I can't afford longer render times too. Here is less than 4 minutes on a P4 2Ghz (320x240)
Thanks for sharing :)
Gerardo
I didn't took the time, but it is about minutes too, like 10 or 15 I think.
It is taking that long since I'm using 10 bounces with Montecarlo at FPrime.
I'm currently using HDRI too, since I will ultimately put the diamond on a scene with gold.
It is a scene I used for a previous render.

As for the computer, I'm using a Powerbook g4 at 1Ghz, and at the same time photoshop for a homework..hehe.

I'll keep experimenting to come up with something better.

cesarmontero
09-08-2005, 09:43 AM
Very crafty!

Did this inner diamond have both regular and air polygons? I'm guessing the inner diamond wasn't flipped to make it like a hollow diamond, but rather dual-layered.

Did the inner diamond have a different "cut" than the outer diamond? I'm thinking it does just by looking at it.

I don't know why you'd have to keep refining it.. Any client should be very happy with that.

The inner diamond is identical so far.
I however exluded all types of shadows.
The inner diamond is a clone.

I'll refine it because I'm still not confortable with it.
Right now I'm doing more testing.
I just realied this cloning thing can be taken further.
I'll be working on it tomorrow.

This is just a personal project. :)
I want to apply the knowledge in the creation of jewelry.
And again, just for pleasure.

gerardo
09-08-2005, 12:10 PM
I didn't took the time, but it is about minutes too, like 10 or 15 I think.
It is taking that long since I'm using 10 bounces with Montecarlo at FPrime.
I'm currently using HDRI too, since I will ultimately put the diamond on a scene with gold.
It is a scene I used for a previous render.

As for the computer, I'm using a Powerbook g4 at 1Ghz, and at the same time photoshop for a homework..hehe.

I'll keep experimenting to come up with something better.

10 bounces! WOW! why? radiosity bounces doesn't contribute much with final result of reflection/refraction, also more than 2 or 3 bounces are almost indistinguishable most of the times. Have you tested with less bounces? Maybe you can diminish that parameter and get a more faster render.



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-08-2005, 06:27 PM
10 bounces! WOW! why? radiosity bounces doesn't contribute much with final result of reflection/refraction, also more than 2 or 3 bounces are almost indistinguishable most of the times. Have you tested with less bounces? Maybe you can diminish that parameter and get a more faster render.
Gerardo

I have done crystal before with 10, and yes, sometimes it is needed.
This is specially true for bold reflective surfaces.
Right now I don't, but I wanted to discover if I did.
I always start with 10, and then lower from there.
This can be done with less, as you said.
At 3 it looks "real", and at 6 I get a nice coloring.
:thumbsup:

Pancho
09-08-2005, 09:37 PM
I'm following this thread with great interest, but at this point I'm getting a bit confused. On one hand the result should look as real as possible, but on the other hand Cesar is using a RI of 7. I tried to get some good information today and the RI for a real diamond is 2.417, the dispersion 0.044 (difference of RI between Red and Ultraviolet). Started to do some test by myself. Changing the light color is quite a good trick, while the RI is changing, too. But there's another trick. Just think of the beginnings of high end digital photography. They shot everything in 3-passes. Probably that's enough info to keep it a bit interesting (and it's not the light color that is changing).

Cheers and good luck to this thread and all your results.

Probably we should mix this thread up with the ice creation one. I guess that would make sense as it is almost the same process.

Cheers
Pancho

gerardo
09-08-2005, 11:29 PM
That's the reason why I've used about 242% in RI, since the process that I proposed tries to follow the logic behind real light behavior, however I'm aware too that we need to play in a big room until get the results that we want to achieve, mainly if we are using non conventional methods (as the one described by César).

Hey! thanks for that idea, Pancho!
Which was the advantage of doing this in high end digital photography? 3 passes method can fit here mainly for caustics, right? maybe moving the light that projects caustics in each pass?(RGB), it may be a great solutions for stills but for animation I'd prefer MotionBlur trick; perhaps can we compare spinning trick with the versatility of what Phase One digital capture system allows? (besides we can save disk space and don't worry about it in post process)



Gerardo

habañero
09-09-2005, 12:04 AM
Cesar, that last one kicks some serious ass ! Beautiful hack!

Pancho, yeah, I was pretty confused myself, now what I think is happening here is two things;

1. Reality aint always real. The images people see of dieamonds are almost always enhanced one way or the other. When you see dieamonds at the jeweler, the lightning is made to emphasize the brilliance of the stone, the caustic-ness. When you see it in ads or even on film, it is well manipulated to fit expectations. So for most people that don´t work with dieamonds on a daily basis, the faker or hyperbolic the better. There´s also a little enhancing going on in people´s head, we want the dieamonds to be extra-ordinary not just glass v 1.4.7.

http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media/images/sri/2004/sriimg20040811_5136943_0.jpg

http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u8/chainon/upload/1464051.2diamants_sont_eternels.jpg

http://www.shinyhappyhead.com/Graphics/StickInPooper.jpg


2. Caustics. Diemonds, and many of the typical settings you experience them in are both designed to generate spectacular, brilliant caustics and intense highlights, as well as "fire",the colour bands. Save a rather incredible and physically perfect caustics model, we have to fake them to some degree, thats where the funny value come into play. Notice the chapter at the end of the course on dieamonds (below) on how to separate fake and real dieamonds, this graphic is about the difference in shadow patterns:

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/jpeg/l5s6.jpeg

also notice the chart stating the dispersion or colour effect on dieamond substitutes:

It seems the most realistic is to emphasize blue and orange in the gradients. (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/L6c1.html)

... the amount of didley doo goin on here ...

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/jpeg/l6s16.jpeg

This is actually somehow an example of the opposite, though I suspect much of the coloration here to be reflections rather than diffraction, but it points to another interesting fact, most dieamonds are not perfect. Though I doubt the real need for adding imperfections to your dieamonds, its relevant if you are looking on dieamond picturers trying to figger what goes on. (I also believe the rgb-gradients will probably look more real to most people, save maybe quite some girls, speaking of which are invited to post their any thought on dieamonds here!)

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/jpeg/l6sj2.jpeg

Here is an interesting resource, found it just now;

Welcome to Gems and Gem Materials This unique internet-based course is designed for students without a strong background in basic science. (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/intro2.html)

Dieamond lecture (http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/Lect6.html)


Notice the effect of the cut and in particular how awesome a match Cesar managed;

http://www.sapphirexport.com/trade/images/diagroup2.jpg

more (http://www.sapphirexport.com/trade/webcontent14.htm)


Regarding the cutting I found this;

http://www.bensondiamondjewelers.com/images/diamond-facets.gif

From the gem course ;

The brilliant cut (modern round brilliant cut or Tolkowsky cut) is a typical cut chosen for diamonds. Tolkowsky determined the optimal proportions are such that the table width is 53% of the diameter of the cut stone. Appraisers will penalize diamonds with tables above 64%. Significant deviations, up to table widths of more than 70% are not uncommon.

Also interesting, the explanation of the darn strange speculars on star rubys or saphires;

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/jpeg/Tl8s5.jpeg

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/jpeg/l8sj40.jpeg

here (http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~eps2/wisc/Lect8.html)

Keep em coming!

Pancho
09-09-2005, 07:10 AM
Woo, looks like somebody has done his homework properly. Great research.

Actually I'm convinced that the spinning light trick (changing color) doesn't really work for animations. I tried it yesterday my way and the point is if anything is moving (light or diamond) then your color-motion-blur-passes won't be on top of each other. So the edges of the diamond will be seen with a rainbow pattern. Animations so far can't be tricked this way. I guess you have to render it at least 3 times. But with some plug ins it might be possible.

Cheers
Pancho

gerardo
09-09-2005, 08:32 AM
Pancho, spinning light trick works perfectly and it can be used in animation successfully, I use it daily. How do you think I get those colorations in chromatic aberrations?. Man, of course you need to move the light. Is how I explained it when I said: "I moved this light too (pre&post behavior repeat), this motion depends on the shape we want for our caustics." and is the way that LW-FIN says you must do it. For caustics, the light moves (changing its color); for reflections, is RI that bends the light what makes that the phenomena you mention don't happen. That's why I say I prefer this trick, is just one pass! (at least you have Spectrum from Evasion 3D) :)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-09-2005, 04:40 PM
From now on I'll be doing my tests and renders using the ring, so that I may know how does the angle and material behind it affect the diamond.

This is a FPrime render.
This is a render with some level, hue and saturation correction on PS.
Bloom is also PS.
Still with errors, but allready looks nice I think.
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/ring1.jpg

Pancho
09-09-2005, 07:31 PM
Nice update, Cesar. But honestly, there's too much going on in your stone. Although it's glittering and blinking like mad, it lacks a form you can feel. It almost looks like a piece of jewelry with many tiny stones in a silver bezel. I guess using surface settings as close as possible to reality won't look as impressive, but a lot more natural. I'm trying to render a turn table movement of a stone right now. If anybody is willing to host it, I'll do my best to make it ready for tomorrow evening or sunday morning. Also, although it's very tempting, we should get rid of these DOF and glow effects. I shot a lot of the finest jewelry for magazines and this effect is almost never there. You do need to use a soft filter to make it visible. I know that it makes the image more spectacular, but not necessarily better. Lets keep it simple till we know how it works best in LW.

Nice thread and feedback from anybody participating. Hope we are getting somewhere.

Cheers
Pancho

cesarmontero
09-09-2005, 07:42 PM
Well Pancho, if you come up with a method for it, let us know!
I know you can make it happen, since your work is pretty amazing.
You have prove to backup your words :)

This is the first render of the diamond with a ring.
I admit it needs work.
It looks not quite right as you say, but I know I can make it look a lot more real.

Let everyone post their methods, and ways of finding a way.

Results are what matter at the end.

zuzzabuzz
09-09-2005, 09:52 PM
I'm sure I could host it from my university account. PM me if interested.

gerardo
09-09-2005, 11:06 PM
From now on I'll be doing my tests and renders using the ring, so that I may know how does the angle and material behind it affect the diamond.

This is a FPrime render.
This is a render with some level, hue and saturation correction on PS.
Bloom is also PS.
Still with errors, but allready looks nice I think.
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/ring1.jpg




WOW! very nice, man! Although I agree with Pancho about it seem small diamonds, maybe is that what makes it so impressive. I guess you can rid off that effect diminishing the texture strength in RI.
Anyway, I think the interesting thing here (besides habañero's research) are the different proposed methods to solve the same task :thumbsup:



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-10-2005, 08:09 AM
Here is a version with a real life refractive index.
I know I can make it look even more real.
No DOF, no bloom at PS.

http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/4-small.jpg

cesarmontero
09-10-2005, 10:27 AM
This one uses no reflection or refraction map.
I think the raytracing got a little enhanced, as well as the contrast.
I took out the coloring for a while.
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/closeup1.jpg

cesarmontero
09-10-2005, 07:20 PM
Another test
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/2-600.jpg

Eddie_rossi
09-11-2005, 12:10 AM
If you could figure out how to get that light blur, I think maby lens flare, It would look awesome.

gerardo
09-11-2005, 02:43 AM
I guess it could be more realistic if we could see something of the ring color in the diamond. I wouldn't worry much about accurate parameters, this picture looks great:

http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/ring1.jpg



Gerardo

RealmRPGer
09-11-2005, 03:20 AM
Has anyone tried doing this in Maya?

cesarmontero
09-11-2005, 04:13 AM
Gerardo: Thanks for the support
RealmRPGer: No idea man, try asking on the MAYA forum.

As for the testing, I will show in a while a more realistic render using logic values.
It looks more much promising, but also more much time consuming even on fprime.
No trickery this time (^__^)

cesarmontero
09-11-2005, 04:54 AM
I started from 0 the texture.
This is the new result.
I focused only in the refraction on this one.
I used 2.417, but with another approach :)

It is still the beggining...
but tell me what you think!



http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/real1.jpg

cesarmontero
09-11-2005, 10:34 AM
Ok, here is a fast render of the same surface, now with the ring.
I'll post a closeup tomorrow :)
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/black1.jpg

RealmRPGer
09-11-2005, 12:46 PM
It's looking real nice already.

I used information gathered from this and another diamond topic to make a ruby.

http://www.realmprotectors.com/images/open/elemental0.png

gerardo
09-11-2005, 06:20 PM
Ok, here is a fast render of the same surface, now with the ring.
I'll post a closeup tomorrow :)
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/black1.jpg


Some coloration in reflections and really that's your better improvement César! which is your new approach?



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-11-2005, 06:32 PM
Some coloration in reflections and really that's your better improvement César! which is your new approach?
Gerardo

I realized that the internal air surface should also reflect.
Take a look at the photos from the thread before, and the star created
at the center could not be formed by using just external reflection
That is why in previous attempts I was missing that "volume".

I don't know if you already had this and I was the only one missing here that part..hehe
That is why that with refraction index of 4, I was having similar results.
I'm using 2.417, but now the diamond has to deal with also the internal reflective surface.

Here is the closeup
no post :)
http://www.archeidos.com/images/diamond/black3.jpg

Pancho
09-11-2005, 06:49 PM
Yes, you are on the right way. It's kind of boring to spoil it all. And it's far more interesting if everbody has got his own little differences. We could set up a test scene and distribute it to everyone to see how each diamond looks like. Same lighting, camera,etc. Would be kind of fun.

Did you already try ray rec with 24? Lightwave gets so slow with even tiny areas including internal reflection. With anything beyond 10 it starts to be cruel.

Cheers
Pancho

cesarmontero
09-11-2005, 06:57 PM
It takes quite a time to calculate the internal reflection, even on FPrime.
And yeah, would be good to come up with a tutorial about it :)

My lighting scene is not that impressive.
It is just a single light and hdri.
You have photographed diamonds on the past.
Could you give us some feedback on how to light diamonds?
:)

Pancho
09-11-2005, 08:19 PM
Usually you avoid too bright lights with reflectors and go for wavers, strip lights and white panels. Spotlights were used to give it a certain sparkle, but it doesn't work with the metal that is involved. So it's often a mixture of both, but the spots are kind of dim. But in general, as I did always go for a conceptual approach, the lighting did follow the main story. For catalogues it's different. But actually you should know quite a lot too. During your process of finding your surface settings you should have realized that it is all about reflection. Did you ever succeed in lighting a mirror? For sure not, but you could see either the light source or probably yourself. Just think of great white panels. If you need to shoot chrome or metal it's the same. At least almost.


Cheers
Pancho

gerardo
09-11-2005, 09:24 PM
I realized that the internal air surface should also reflect.
Take a look at the photos from the thread before, and the star created
at the center could not be formed by using just external reflection
That is why in previous attempts I was missing that "volume".

I don't know if you already had this and I was the only one missing here that part..hehe...



I haven't been using internal reflections, it can be a very expensive addition, as you say; however I've been making tests here and I found a way to speed up the render with LW, is quick even with Ray_Recursion_Limit at 24 (what is even quicker in FPrime). Just change your reflection options to Backdrop Only for your air surface (if you are using Imageworld or TexturedEnvironment) or Spherical Map (if you are reflecting the real 3D environment, you can use JJ_Special Projection or Refgen to generate this sphericalmap). The difference between this and Raytracing is almost imperceptible and the render is really much more faster! :)



Gerardo

Carm3D
09-13-2005, 12:04 AM
Cesar,

I tried your double-diamond trick. I don't think it helped much. This is my result:

(image deleted)

Lightbase
09-13-2005, 08:16 AM
Here is my version of diamond rind I did 2 years ago http://www.revolution180.com/modeling.html. I've used glass in glass out technic. It is very important to put proper refraction index for glass out surface. Unfortunately I don't remember now the proper index, but I've took it from refraction index chart of LW Manual.pdf.

Carm3D
09-13-2005, 08:54 AM
What is the glass in glass out technique?

Mike RB
09-13-2005, 09:15 AM
copy the object, flip the polys, paste it back in and set the material of the "inside" to a refraction of "air"

Mike

Carm3D
09-13-2005, 11:12 AM
Oh yeah.. I did that... Strange.. I just can't get it lookin' good.

Pancho
09-13-2005, 02:46 PM
I'm glad that I finally managed to finish my diamond turning 360°. It's blue because of the blue sky surrounding the scene. Thanks to Zuzzabuzz I found a way to present it to you. Thanks, man.

So here's the link:

http://www.unm.edu/~buzzbuzz/pancho/diamond.html

gerardo
09-13-2005, 09:39 PM
Very nice refraction effect Pancho! we can see the depth of the material and although colorations in reflections aren't very noticed due to blued environment, looks real too :)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-14-2005, 11:46 AM
I'm glad that I finally managed to finish my diamond turning 360°. It's blue because of the blue sky surrounding the scene. Thanks to Zuzzabuzz I found a way to present it to you. Thanks, man.

So here's the link:

http://www.unm.edu/~buzzbuzz/pancho/diamond.html (http://www.unm.edu/%7Ebuzzbuzz/pancho/diamond.html)

Wow, thats is a very pretty diamond Pancho!
Does your lighting setup works with other objects on scene?
I'm aiming to do diamonds with realistic jewelry, so that is my approach.
Did you wanted it to be blue, or it was a difficulty you encounter?

When I started doing my diamond I realized it was easier to make a colored diamond than a transparent (white).
So I'm wondering if you had the same problem.

Overall, nice job! You never disappoint me!:D
Carm3d:

I used an internal reflection of 17, using fprime 2, but worley says that it is better to use 1.5 for both reflective-transparent surfaces as a diamond.

Carm3D
09-14-2005, 12:26 PM
Oooh.. Give both the diamond AND the air polygons a refraction of 1.5? (you said reflection, but I am assuming you mean refraction)

cesarmontero
09-14-2005, 12:42 PM
Oooh.. Give both the diamond AND the air polygons a refraction of 1.5? (you said reflection, but I am assuming you mean refraction)

The air poly has refraction of 1, and the outer diamond surface has refraction of 2.417

The trick here is that the internal surface is both reflective and also transparent.
That is the way you create the depth inside the diamond, and you will still be able to see through it. :)

Here is an update of my diamond.
I feel there is a frontal area that doesnt reflects any bouncer.
I believe that as with glass, I need one to reflect on that side to create volume.

Carm3D
09-15-2005, 01:38 AM
Woo! Adding reflection to the air polys really slows the render down! That's probably the missing ingredient. Thanks for spelling it out for me, Cesar.

Pancho
09-15-2005, 08:19 AM
That's right Carm. It's slow. A simple 640 bx 480px image easily takes more than 24h with a ray rec of 16. But without internal reflection and total reflection, without gradients at least in the ref and trans channel, there's no real glass and especially no real diamonds. That's the most essential part of a diamond. Internal reflection makes it sparkel as the light doesn't leave the stone, but gets reflected back. And as light with a different wavelength gets refracted with a slightly different RI the color of the light changes that you can see on the "surface" of a diamond.

Well, have fun!

Cheers
Pancho

osmose
09-15-2005, 10:13 AM
and this link just in case...


http://www.3dlapidary.com/Home.htm

Carm3D
09-15-2005, 01:01 PM
Here's an update to my earlier image. The inner reflections did the trick. I opted to use background-only reflections for the air polys like someone mentioned (thanks). It saved alot of time.

http://www.carm3d.net/Images/LightDispersion.JPG

gerardo
09-16-2005, 09:51 AM
Glad it helps you. I've noticed inner reflections offers high internal contrast too, so maybe you want to play with your reflections values to compensate that :)



Gerardo

cesarmontero
09-16-2005, 09:14 PM
I felt a little jelaous of Pancho and freshdb for having a video, so here is mine. A little raw, but I like it. I made it be a perfect loop. SO you can download it, set it to loop on quicktime, and see it gong round and round :)

EDIT: VIDEO IS NOW 30 FPS

CLICK TO WATCH VIDEO (http://www.archeidos.com/videos/diamond/all-600x400.mov)
http://www.archeidos.com/videos/diamond/thumb.jpg (http://www.archeidos.com/videos/diamond/all-600x400.mov)

(http://www.archeidos.com/videos/diamond/all-600x400.mov)

Carm3D
09-16-2005, 10:04 PM
Looks great! Hail Cesar!

cesarmontero
09-17-2005, 08:57 AM
Looks great! Hail Cesar!

haha
By the way, I just updated the video to 30 fps.
The previous one looked glitchty.
The ring now turns smoothly
:)

cesarmontero
10-30-2005, 11:28 PM
It has been a while since I posted on this WIP.
Here is another update.
This time I added coloring to the surface.

gerardo
10-31-2005, 01:12 AM
Is the best result that I've seen from you so far, César. I like the lighting and those little details in the ring too. Very nice style and realistic! :thumbsup:



Gerardo

cesarmontero
01-08-2006, 01:59 PM
Is the best result that I've seen from you so far, César. I like the lighting and those little details in the ring too. Very nice style and realistic! :thumbsup:
Gerardo

Thanks man!
If it wasn't for all of the lightwaver's support, I think I wouldn't be so far on this piece.
Here is another update.
This time, I started a new scene with new lighting, and a new texture for the diamond.
NO HDRI used this time, and just a single light so far.

The image I used as a reference was:
THIS IS A PHOTO REFERENCE

http://www.webphotoschool.com/Lesson_Library/Free_Lessons/Photographing_Rings_the_Easy_Way/1093291180_fig17.jpg

NOTE: I didn't intended for the ring to be the same, just the lighting.
I'll work on the ring form tomorrow.
THE FOLLOWING IMAGE IS MY RENDER

otacon
01-08-2006, 07:08 PM
Very good. Try making your ring a little thinner like the reference photo. To me it looks like a mans ring because of the width, and it takes away from the elegance of the diamond.

cesarmontero
01-09-2006, 12:59 AM
Yup, I was missing that part.
I just corrected it.
Here is a new render.

elfdestruct
01-09-2006, 06:01 AM
Very nice surfacing & modeling. :thumbsup:
Only a little nit - the surface the ring is sitting "in" needs a slight divet, like in your reference. It's like a support for holding the ring upright.

cesarmontero
01-09-2006, 07:21 AM
Very nice surfacing & modeling. :thumbsup:
Only a little nit - the surface the ring is sitting "in" needs a slight divet, like in your reference. It's like a support for holding the ring upright.

THanks for the reminder!
I did notice the base, but I was so into the lighting of the piece, that I forgot about it.
This pieces is MOSTLY lighting.
Even if you added a cube of default texture, it would look like a realistic gray/white cube.

Meanwhile, here is another render, now with a base and black.
http://www.archeidos.com/images/with_box.jpg
http://archeidos.com/images/with_box1_post.jpg

gerardo
01-09-2006, 04:55 PM
Your work looks better every time, César. This last one looks even better than your photo reference and is more impressive considering you aren't using any HDRI for your reflections.



Gerardo

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