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View Full Version : we know who has the best sub-d :)


yon dabuda
11-05-2002, 10:16 AM
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27251

ThirdEye
11-05-2002, 12:56 PM
Yes, we know it: Maya. ;)

Bytehawk
11-05-2002, 01:05 PM
naaaah

L(uxology)
W(hatdoheyactuallydo)

Eugeny
11-05-2002, 01:45 PM
Voted for LW - but i think XSI sub-d engine is better...

Munson
11-05-2002, 01:47 PM
course its not LW, because LW doesn`t handle anything above 4 sides ( which we all know ) and thats not true sub-divs.. ( as we know ) so XSI yeah.. thats my vote.

yon dabuda
11-05-2002, 01:53 PM
yeah, i hear xsi's sub-d's are super. if it was a vote between lw and xsi's sub-d then i wouldnt know. never tried xsi's.

munson:
>4 sides, i can do without.
true sub-ds? eh.. whats so true about xsi's sub-d? and how does that affect my work? :)

ThirdEye
11-05-2002, 02:18 PM
Maya's the only one with REAL subdee (not geometry approximation like Lightwave-CatmullRom method)

yon dabuda
11-05-2002, 02:22 PM
nah... hehe

maya's the only one with REALly slow subdee (not really fast, like LW's) :D

Eugeny
11-05-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
Maya's the only one with REAL subdee (not geometry approximation like Lightwave-CatmullRom method)

Yea this is the reason why Final Fantasy was modeled on LightWave :)
Sorry but Maya sub-d have only one advantages - local sub-d ...

ThirdEye
11-05-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Eugeny
Yea this is the reason why Final Fantasy was modeled on LightWave :)
Sorry but Maya sub-d have only one advantages - local sub-d ...


Modeled in LW? Maybe the low-poly mesh ;)

Psyhke
11-05-2002, 04:42 PM
What is 'real' Sub-d? I mean what's the difference? I've heard some Maya users mention this, but never really understood it...

takkun
11-05-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
Modeled in LW? Maybe the low-poly mesh ;) Many, if not all, of the main characters were modeled in Lightwave, not Maya.

ThirdEye
11-05-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Felytendect
Many, if not all, of the main characters were modeled in Lightwave, not Maya.

If you want you can model in poly with Lw and then import everything in Maya for applying a subdee cage

fourd
11-05-2002, 07:21 PM
Who has the best Dub-dee's?!

Who frick-in cares. LW is all I use now, so why bother myself with other apps.:wip:

SplineGod
11-05-2002, 07:27 PM
Who cares? When the dust settles Lightwave is easiest to use. Modeling in it is fast and easy...thats all that matters.

wgreenlee1
11-05-2002, 07:29 PM
Did you guys see the new XSI subdiv tool for the upgrade 3.0?
:eek:

Eugeny
11-05-2002, 07:50 PM
:shrug: i can't see any movie from XSI cite ...

RobPowers
11-05-2002, 07:55 PM
XSI looks very nice but the cost difference between XSI and Lightwave isn't trivial. For one point Lightwave offers unlimited render nodes for free. XSI charges for extra render nodes and also charges a "Maintenance Fee" per year. The new XSI Crowd sim module that was recently released is $14,995 alone. What individuals have this kind of money to invest in software? If you want to actually produce animation projects as an individual artist then Lightwave is the clear winner. If you have a Studio with deep pockets behind you then you might choose to go with XSI - but then you will always need to be involved with some studio to do your work. I am more interested in the individual creative strength that digital technology offers. "Auteur Theory" used to just be a theory. Now it is possible.

Rob Powers

Facial Deluxe
11-05-2002, 08:10 PM
Oh Come on, since when money is an issue ?:rolleyes:

fourd
11-05-2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Who cares? When the dust settles Lightwave is easiest to use. Modeling in it is fast and easy...thats all that matters.

Amen brotha!

{My post was in fact for LW} lol..:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :beer:

Mwai Kasamale
11-05-2002, 08:15 PM
My little note to all,

Lightwave's Sub'D's are true subD. For those hailing Sotimage SubD you should know that Softimage SubD prior to V3.0 weren't true SubD. Softimage touted them as SubD's but in fact were their rendition of Geometry aproximation, or Hi rez models controlled by the Proxy or base model, simililar to a Maya plugin called CPS. Only fully implemented into the application. Lightwaves "metaNurbs" were the basis of what is now 6.x and beyonds SubD system.

And for those of you touting Maya's SubD system you should also know that the SubD system Implemented in Maya borrowed heaviliy from Lightwaves. Its a miracle they weren't sued. Offcourse they couldn't; Noone could claim to be the proprietor of any SubD system because of trademark issues."Ala 'HyperNurbs, Nurms, UberNurbs" and all other names under the sun. True SubD's were implimented in a Max plugin now unavaliable some 10 years, a victim of the Trademark issues overcome by all the big App makers today.

So for those asking whose SubD system is the best I would have to say Lightwave and XSI3.0. Maya's subD system though competent needs more investigating

-wT-
11-05-2002, 09:44 PM
Mwai Kasamale: And Lightwaves subd's aren't proxy based?
Have I missed something, as what I've now tried, that's exactly what they are :)

And in my opinion, Maya's subdivision surfaces are still the best ones.
I don't understand why so many of you almost fear that some package could have something implemented more better than the one you worship?
I was a Maya user, but money talked and I'm now an LW'ist, and propably will be for a quite some time. Yet, I can handle the fact that I like some things more in Maya. Like the openess of it, Mental Ray, and numerous small things which would make a very long list.


But back to the subdivisions.

Let's make a small comparison. Maya has CPS (and nowadays with 4.5, an CPS emulator by AW itself) and the "true" subdivisions.
CPS is the exact same thing as LW's subd's. But the "true" subd's of Maya work like CPS and LW's subd's, and you can make more precise editings by going deeper and deeper into the model's "skin". You can make a small grooves into a ball, and then go back to the cube-cage and with it stretch the ball around, and the grooves remain.
Ok, the "true" (Why do I write true as ture all the time?!? :shrug:) subd's of Maya are slow. Ok, so everybody may not like to use them, so they can use CPS/4.5's own and *bing* you now have the exact same features as LW.
And about LW's subd's being perfectly smooth compared to the CPS/"4.5's own" ones, that's true, but isn't it quite useless as the thing will be tesselated in render anyways?
And Maya's "true" (Yes! true at the first time :airguitar) subd's are perfectly smooth, before you start ;)

So, either Maya has the same subd's as LW, or a better ones, which you can choose between.
Why can't I see a problem with this all? Even as I'm an LW'ist for good now? :shrug:


And anyways, I may be totally wrong, and haven't noticed any other way to modify the subd's in LW but the cage, but this post wasn't ment as a flame in the first place. I'm just thinking out loud, so no need to get angry about this, ok? :)
Take a look at my signature too.

CIM
11-05-2002, 10:04 PM
Who cares if Maya (really Pixar) has "real" sub-d's. Maya's sub-ds are slower than hell and require tons of steps just to make them useable.

Some of these die-hard Maya users remind me of some Bryce users who put up with ungodly render times (days, maybe a week!) just because the company that created it (Bryce), says they use a "real" raytracer and it's supposed to be slow.

These tools are supposed to help us get the job done in the fastest, most painless way; not be a spectacle to look wide-eyed at and drool over, while in reality it doesn't work that well.

tio pepe
11-05-2002, 10:28 PM
Sub-Ds? Anyone heard of Mirai?

Although a bit long in the tooth now, Its been the workhorse standard for sub-d work and only now is Maya and the rest catching up.

SplineGod
11-05-2002, 10:34 PM
Now that you mention pixar...a friend of mine there worked on Geris Game and mentioned that a good 80% of that was modeled in Lightwave. He said that no matter which package was used it always was passed thru their proprietary SubDs. He said that Lightwaves SubDs looked identical to what theirs gave. :)

Kaiser_Sose
11-06-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Eugeny
:shrug: i can't see any movie from XSI cite ...

He might be referring to this

mms://165.193.97.97/softimage/wmt/Subdivision_Surfaces.wmv

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/v3/NFVT/

takkun
11-06-2002, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by -wT-
And anyways, I may be totally wrong, and haven't noticed any other way to modify the subd's in LW but the cage,

press 'd' and turn off the cage but leave the guides on in your perspective view and model directly with the vertices on the sub-d mesh.


And Rob Powers, AMEN brotha! AMEN! :applause:

wgreenlee1
11-06-2002, 02:39 AM
Cage?
I didnt even know you could use the cage.
Ive always used points or polys to adjust everything concerning Subpatch structures....:p

Eugeny
11-06-2002, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Felytendect
press 'd' and turn off the cage but leave the guides on in your perspective view and model directly with the vertices on the sub-d mesh.


And Rob Powers, AMEN brotha! AMEN! :applause:

Even more ! U can work without cage and guides - switch to wire shade mode and click with drug tool on the isopharm intersection (then u on sub-d mode) and move it ! If u want to select the point - still just click on on the isopharm intersection - that's all.

Kiser - yes i referred to this movie - damn media player ! i still can't see any thing may be i need new media player ? (i have 7.01)

Kaiser_Sose
11-06-2002, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Eugeny


Kiser - yes i referred to this movie - damn media player ! i still can't see any thing may be i need new media player ? (i have 7.01)

I still use 6.4 ... the first thing I did when I got XP was to get rid of the new versions of WMP aka bloatware

Go to the Microsoft WM site and dl the latest codec pack ... that should help

Eugeny
11-06-2002, 09:29 AM
Go to the Microsoft WM site and dl the latest codec pack ... that should help

Downloaded ... now i can hear something and even see stupid M$ logo animation ...
but i don't see anything else. F*****g XSI with f*****g media player and f*****g microsoft :annoyed:
Why not making this with Quick Time ?

verti
11-06-2002, 09:35 AM
LW subd never been the 100% theoretical subds. they are fast as hell - so what i might ask?
it all depends on what the one needs. in maya u can zoom to the edge as much as u want and it will be always round. yeah they are slow... but if someone asks what apps got realy subd system implemented, u answer: maya and xsi (3?). dont know how about houdini? any houdini users here?

ask pixar...

verti.

Eugeny
11-06-2002, 09:45 AM
Uf ... lets talk about Electric Image - it's have more then 4 points sub-d engine ...
... or Cinema 8 engine - it's fast like LW (also modeling process is the same) and it's have edges weight.
LightWave Sub-d is greater then Maya because u don't need additional sets of tools for Sub-d u can use all poly power of Modeler for subdivisions surfaces.
As for Hudini i did only first tut yet (rocket scene :) ) and i mast say that it's to complicated - to get similar results in LW u need few mouth clicks.

verti
11-06-2002, 09:56 AM
Eugeny:
KEWL! :)... In my opinion Houdini is a completly different kind of app. If you know what you want to get... yes... choose LW, Maya or whatever app...

But if you got time... you are able to... you got a vision... some really "arty" idea... no other app will give you as much power as Houdini has...

just my 2 cents about Houdini ;)

verti.

btw. im learning LW... awesome app! :)

Eugeny
11-06-2002, 10:02 AM
Yes u right Houdini is completely different :)

psil
11-06-2002, 10:28 AM
I just tried zooming in very, very close on both LW and XSI subD and both render perfectly smooth:shrug: -so I wouldn't lose sleep worrying if it's 'true' subD or not

FF characters - I read in a Maya book that they were modeled in Maya, but keep hearing that it was LW. Does anyone know for sure??

ambient-whisper
11-06-2002, 11:38 AM
clay. www.rocket3d.com
has no "real" subdees.
but as far as quickly prototyping an organic model, it makes other apps look bad. its only at version 0.16...and i believe its done by one genious living in New Zealand. ( there might be another person helping him. not sure.

Werner
11-06-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by ambient-whisper
clay. www.rocket3d.com
has no "real" subdees.
but as far as quickly prototyping an organic model, it makes other apps look bad. its only at version 0.16...and i believe its done by one genious living in New Zealand. ( there might be another person helping him. not sure.


Is this "clay" anything like Mirai? I'm realy interested in this application under development.

Eugeny
11-06-2002, 12:44 PM
FF characters - I read in a Maya book that they were modeled in Maya, but keep hearing that it was LW. Does anyone know for sure??

Then Newtek site will back go to projects was used LightWave and u will see FF and word modeling in quots.

Labuzz
11-06-2002, 12:47 PM
Same thing for me Eugeny, I can't see the XSI VIDEO...F*****g XSI with f*****g media player and f*****g microsoft
Why not making this with Quick Time ?:beer:

Any timelapse video With Clay ambient-whisper?

anieves
11-06-2002, 01:39 PM
now I'm very curious about Clay. I wish there was more info in the site.

Edit:

BTW, I would have prefered anything over windows media. Since SXI is a windows app they assume everybody must love windows media.

I don't know about you guys but for me is out of the question to get a software which upgrades cost 1,395!... I can get another LW seat for that... or close to that:)

CIM
11-06-2002, 03:49 PM
"FF characters - I read in a Maya book that they were modeled in Maya, but keep hearing that it was LW. Does anyone know for sure??"

The characters were originally modeled in LW. I've heard that Rene Morel did some editing on them, though. He's a Maya users, so I guess that's where they got the Maya story from.

You know alias/wavefront: even if an old, dusty copy of Maya is sitting around, they claim it did everything. :-)

CG.p
11-06-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by RobPowers
The new XSI Crowd sim module that was recently released is $14,995 alone. What individuals have this kind of money to invest in software?

People that don't have $40,000 for Massive. :)

ambient-whisper
11-06-2002, 05:15 PM
old dusty copy...

umm from all the videos that were made for the FF dvd extras i dont remember seeying LW.
at siggraph 2001 i remember seeying a bunch of demos all over the place with FF in it. AW was showing some character setup stuff that they did on aki...nvidia was running their gf3 demos..

but yet i havent seen LW anywhere near the thing.

so besides someone putting FF on the LW list. you got any proof CIM ?

CG.p
11-06-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Mwai Kasamale
True SubD's were implimented in a Max plugin now unavaliable some 10 years, a victim of the Trademark issues overcome by all the big App makers today.


Very impressive considering "Max" wasn't around 10 years ago. This is still 2002.

:)

AAbel
11-06-2002, 08:34 PM
I am very curious how Final Fantasy (modeling), from Newtek's site translates into "The characters were originally modeled in LW" I've seen that credit on the Newtek site, it's not descriptive in the least as to what LW was used to model. In fact the only LW credit for Final Fantasy I have ever seen has been on Newtek's site. Sorry CIM, but it looks like you are the one distorting reality, not A|W.

Freak
11-06-2002, 09:19 PM
Final Fantasy was done in Maya.

LW was used for "The Gray Project" which was the animatics test.

Technically, Newtek are lying. ;)

CIM
11-06-2002, 09:30 PM
Well, since Lightwave is almost always used for modeling when Maya is involved (it's the most used program in tv, film, and print), I think it's pretty safe to assume that alot of it was modeled in Lightwave.

NT doesn't buy ppl./studios out like alias/wavefront does, so they don't have the opportunity to always show what Lightwave is used in.

Eugeny
11-06-2002, 09:44 PM
Here is (http://www.luxology.net/article/092302_DigitalDomain/page1.aspx) some article about using LW and Maya ... I am sure in short time we will see A/W will post new customer story about another great using of Maya ...

AAbel
11-06-2002, 11:42 PM
CIM you are trying to pass speculation and assumptions off as fact. If you can't back it up as a hard fact don't make the claim. It's very simple, really. What you are doing is very dishonest and the exact same type of behaviour that you allege A|W engages in that you hate so much.

Eugeney, that's a nice article, but what does it have to do with LW bieng used in Final Fantasy?

CG.p
11-06-2002, 11:50 PM
Nothing, it is an article about using LW and Maya

Just like this thread isn't about Final Fantasy.

Kaiser_Sose
11-06-2002, 11:52 PM
Eugeny,

Try this download

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/format/codecdownload.asp

Just for you my Israeli friend, if the above does not work for you I have converted it into mpeg but the file is way to big so you will have to pm me if you really want to see it

AAbel
11-06-2002, 11:54 PM
heh, whoops, wrapped up in my own lil context.

Lamont
11-07-2002, 12:47 AM
All companies pull the "This movie/game would not be possible without the power of (insert app of choice).".

Personally, I think it's stupid. Only the un-knowed newbie/fanboy/girl would follow such a thing. The companies know this and that's why it's so prevalant now.

It's rare that a game/movie is made entirely from one application start to finish.

Actually, the only one I can think of that doesn't do this is Mirai. But I am damn sure it's used in production all the time.

I use Lightwave all day. But I know I will have to go to Max/XSI/Maya when needed.

3D is 3D damn it.

I'm gonna get iShade!!!

tachy0n
11-07-2002, 01:14 AM
But isn't it the renderer that determines if SubDs were 'true' or not ?

eg if you export a mesh from ANY app (even if it doesn't support SubDs at all) and render that in PRMan as a SubD, then it will render as a 'true' SubD, cause PRMan supports 'true' SubDs... In which case, isn't a better workflow and faster operation in the SubDs more important ? Which is why LW get's my vote.

Also it seems to me that LW is a pure polygon renderer, so come render time, it HAS to tesselate it's SubDs to render them, and this is a limitation of it's renderer, not it's SubDs in general.

And as far as i know, Maya's 'true' SubD's aren't fully supported by any other renderer than Maya's native one (you can't use the hierarchy mode).. so what good are they ?

Shadowed_link
11-07-2002, 02:27 AM
Aware of the subject change but I have got to ask,

are all the recent cg's in the final fantasy game

series, mainly Maya based?

Those movies are so incredible!

Cman
11-07-2002, 02:58 AM
Maya-Maya-Maya-Maya-Maya...

sheesh!... :rolleyes:

Mike RB
11-07-2002, 03:05 AM
Heres a 1st hand example. We use LW (7.5) for modeling and texturing EVERYTHING in our game. Maya (4.5) is used only as a link to our game engine and for character animation. It would be impossible to get done the amount of work we need to get done, in the time we have to do it if we were using maya as a modeling and uv'ing/texturing package.

Mike

Freak
11-07-2002, 05:50 AM
Hey - Shadowed_link

The Computer Game series actually used Softimage.
I'm not sure if they still do, Square JPN have licences of

XSI, Softimage, LW, Maya & MAX. (among others)

But the Playstation Series FF7, FF8, FF9
Mainly Softimage 3.9 and also XSI 1.5

takkun
11-07-2002, 06:27 AM
XSI was not used in FF7, 8, 9, 10, 11. They used Softimage|3d as their main app except for 10 which was done in Maya.

leigh
11-07-2002, 05:57 PM
Yeah, I agree.
Who cares which one is "technically" the best and most accurate.
I love modelling in LW, I find it really intuitive, and modelling is actually a pleasure, unlike some other packages...

Although, I do think that it would be cool to not be limited to only 3 and 4 sided polys :)

-wT-
11-07-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by tachy0n
But isn't it the renderer that determines if SubDs were 'true' or not ?

eg if you export a mesh from ANY app (even if it doesn't support SubDs at all) and render that in PRMan as a SubD, then it will render as a 'true' SubD, cause PRMan supports 'true' SubDs... In which case, isn't a better workflow and faster operation in the SubDs more important ? Which is why LW get's my vote.

Also it seems to me that LW is a pure polygon renderer, so come render time, it HAS to tesselate it's SubDs to render them, and this is a limitation of it's renderer, not it's SubDs in general.

And as far as i know, Maya's 'true' SubD's aren't fully supported by any other renderer than Maya's native one (you can't use the hierarchy mode).. so what good are they ?

That's true, and I don't think there's many rendereres out there (Well maybe the newest Brazil/FR/MR and such) which would actually render the things without tesselating 'em. Like Maya tesselates it's subdivisions (Or that's what I think) and NURBS (And you can btw make the tesselated version appear in the viewports)


Oh and this is weird, after all the good words I've heard about the LW community being the best around, why so many of you are so insecure about your app? :surprised
I mean c'mon. It's a pile of 0's and 1's, and still you're acting like it was your wife and someone is calling her fat or took pictures of her in the shower and put 'em up in the local newspaper...

Psyhke
11-07-2002, 06:47 PM
Are you calling LW fat? :annoyed:


;)

psil
11-07-2002, 07:15 PM
LOL

ambient-whisper
11-07-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Felytendect
XSI was not used in FF7, 8, 9, 10, 11. They used Softimage|3d as their main app except for 10 which was done in Maya.

im not sure where you got that info but heres a bit i do know.

FF7 was mirai and power animator. maybe soft thrown into the mix. havent heard it being near the production. so i cant say

after that they upgraded power animator to maya.
and im not sure they kept using mirai since nichimen was having problems and eventually dropped mirai. though a few productions like parasite even used it till they finished with it.

ever since that happened though they have been a large maya house. not just for 10. but 8 and 9 as well.

though they have used more than one app in there. like you can read some articles of houdini being used on the simulations. etc.

also since they started to hire other companies to do some bits for them ..other applications should be added to the credits of square games. like max for example. a lot of their cloud simulations are done using afterburner.

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