The art of critiquing?

[Rebeccak]

Hexaditidom,

Hey there, you know, I really agree with you...most of what is said on the Daily Sketch Group is a quick, 'Hey mate! Good job!' before the person goes on to post their work. I don't find this particularly constructive, and in truth, though people continually post MORE work here, I don't see the quality going on any kind of bell curve, precisely because I think everyone in the forum is (charmingly) quite chummy and afraid to hurt one another's feelings. By contrast, some of the critiques and reviews which I read on the main WIP forum are very insightful and offer to the artist something (usually) which they can really use.

One problem with the DSG that I see (as someone who doesn't often participate) is that the emphasis is on quantity, and not quality ~ and frankly, a lot of it is social. I think people post stuff here to keep a community going ~ which is wonderful ~ it's why I wanted to have the Anatomy forum under WIP, because I saw how much everyone supported one another ~ but when the quality of artwork does not go up, then people are not using their time to the best of their ability.

The same folks who post in DSG post on the WIP, so why the change in atmosphere between the two 'places'? I think the emphasis on speed here kind of precludes folks from taking the time to consider their work ~ so perhaps if critique were more part of the inherent format, DSG would be that much stronger. I love a lot about DSG, but I think it, like anything else, can be improved thru exactly the measures you are talking about ~ demanding more critique, and by extension, demanding that people submit better work, and not just quick cast~offs which are done mainly for a laugh.

Anyhoo, those are my two cents. I think everyone on DSG KNOWS how to critique, but the critique format just isn't part of the Magna Carta of the DSG. But I'm sure Roberto is open to change. :)

Cheers! :)

~Rebeccak

[Velk]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. The proper way to critique something is a long and careful process (if you do it right). Frankly I don't have the time or the energy to post proper feedback on every piece of art here. I do it when I can, but the times I can't I will resort to either the lame 'great job' or not post anything at all.

If in doubt of the proper way to post good constructive critiques feel free to ask.

Other than that I agree with everything that rebeccak said.

[electricsketchbook]

Hexaditidom,

I just want to add a little thought. There are several areas of CGTalk that are "Crit-intensive," meaning that you can easily get critiques if you want them on this site.

I don't really see any sort of problem here, in fact, I think it is good to have a place that is a little easy-going in nature to off-set some of the other forums. It gives people options and allows people who don't want to participate in crits a venue to post in a social format. To be honest, this is one of the reasons I chose to post at DSG instead of other areas of CGTalk. I just wanted a venue to post in that was fun to begin with. I will access other areas of CGTalk when I feel the need. I think that the reason people post here is the fun nature of not knowing what the next topic will be, the social and friendly environment, and to let loose a little. I think that is why it has a pretty good posting rate.

If you think of if, DSG (in it's current state) offers a very useful tool. It gives people the chance to muddle through an idea without the stress of making look good if they don't have the time. I have seen several people who have taken the beginnings they created in the DSG and continue on with them, creating some good pieces in other areas of CGTalk. DSG promotes a level of freedom of thought, like a think tank. One of the main rules in a brainstorming group is to never shoot down an idea, it stops the flow of thought and kills creativity. Refinement of ideas happens in the next stage after brainstorming.

You could also compare this to the various systems of the human body. Each has it's own job and set of goals. If all the systems operated the same way, we would die. The creators and moderators seem to have some idea of this and keep distinction in their given areas, which is commendable.

I am not discounting the value of critique, quite the opposite, critique is invaluable when done right. There are some who understand this very well and offer useful advice given in an appropriate manner, there are are others who are simply rude and insulting, with no actual information offered to be helpful. I see this alot in the other forums. Critique is only of value when it is given with true intent of aide, as opposed to wanting to sound knowledgable to others reading the forum.

In short, I think that what DSG currently offers is something valueable and needed, which is why people pop their heads in here and post. It gives contrast and variety to some other areas of CGTalk. I wouldn't look too hard to change the DSG. Rather, I would recognize the unique attributes that the DSG has and value them. Never forget the power of simple encouragement.

P.S. I don't want you to think I am against what you are saying. You are trying to make an improvement in an area you see a deficiency in. My background is in analytical science and I try to value multiple points of view. I think what you are saying is very valid, I just feel that DSG is already offering a great service by not including crits as part of the paradigm.

:) :) :)

[J Cae]

I agree with you, 11th Door.

Even tho I haven't posted very much on DSF (like...2 sketches), I really like the no pressure environment of it. I think DSF is more about painting what comes to mind spontaneously rather than about techniques. If I had wanted crits, I could line my art up on GFX and beg people to flay them.

Improvements come naturally when you practise.

[kaylon]

Could not agree more 11th ... that's spot on. I see the DSG as a place to relax and not be to heavy handed or pricise about what I contribute...I get enough pressure at work :). I still learn things and improve to a degree, but I dont have to worry to much about anything :).

I see the DSG as more of an exploration of the imagination and not a tech or form or style or critique forum :).

K.

[Rebeccak]

11th Door,

Lol, very good points all! :) So, DSG = the spleen of CGTalk? Hahahahahah!!! :thumbsup:

No, I can see what you mean. ;)

Cheers, :)

~Rebeccak

[Art2]

I also have to agree with 11th door. The positive energy alone made me improve and made me come back time after time. If you like some crit, please say so and point out in what area. People will crit, it maybe makes it easier when they know what to crit. And if you want some serious crit take your sketch to the next level and post it in the wip forum.

[arvid]

Agreed, sketching is great training, and in no need for crits, DSG provides a great source of inspiration, and topics you'd never think up yourself, and you can quickly see how others interpreted the topic - which is fun and inspiring.

Sketching is like brainstorming - as 11th says - and isn't supposed to be critizised IMO, just encouraged. Point out what's good if you want to, commend others when they improve, that sort of thing. And above all - have fun kids :D

[AmyScott-Murray]

One reason I don't post crits on dsg is that most people won't be taking that piece of work any further, and it's much more satisfying to crit work when you can see it develop as a whole project (regardless of whether the person takes your advice or not).

I also agree that daily sketch is (for me) more about exercising my imagination than about producing artwork... even on the days I don't have time to post, I always check the topic and spend time thinking about what sort of 'spin' I would put on it if I did have time to draw anything.

I love that my idea can stand alone as my post without technique being considered so much. [edit] For this reason, I've always wondered if it's ok to post a photo/collage/alteration type thing instead of a really crappy sketch, if it would get my idea across better and still in a creative way.

[Art2]

Amy, you can use all sorts of tools to create your sketch.

[jmBoekestein]

Allthough I agree with the fact that it's the fun in DSG that attracts me, I do put effort into learning from these sketches I do and see on the forum. It's great to see all these different styles together and so many ideas from one word. Great stuff.

But for simplicity's sake I would suggest you to put in a little line, something like : "I focused on the composition, what do you think?" That sort of thing. I'm here for the learning too ;).
Mainly for fun here, but if you can learn something at the same time, why not. :D

:scream:

[djtrousdale]

something like : "I focused on the composition, what do you think?"

THIS is exactly what I was getting at.
I, for one, am stupid at art. I have no idea what composition is. I was looking for what some terms mean; in general I want to know what YOU LOOK AT when you see a creation. What is good 'composition'?

All the same, great points everyone. Especially ButchMakora, who brought this up. :wise:

[Rebeccak]

Hexaditidom,

What would you think if I worked on posting some tuts on Composition on the Anatomy forum? I'm no expert, but I might be able to provide some basic exercises to try to help out. Feel free to PM me if you have any suggestions. :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

[Rebeccak]

Additionally, do you know that there are a number of good Composition links here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=226083) on the Art Theories forum? :)

Cheers,

~Rebeccak

[ekah]

Agreed, sketching is great training, and in no need for crits, DSG provides a great source of inspiration, and topics you'd never think up yourself, and you can quickly see how others interpreted the topic - which is fun and inspiring.

Sketching is like brainstorming - as 11th says - and isn't supposed to be critizised IMO, just encouraged. Point out what's good if you want to, commend others when they improve, that sort of thing. And above all - have fun kids :D

Absolutely agree 300%. DSG should not be compared with other forums imo. Sketching, or rather doodling is exploration of ideas and should not be confused with final drawing or illustration. One should not be inhibited during this process. It is often a very private process, but DSG particpants choose to show their process in public, and I find that wonderful. I believe one should be nurtured during this process, however wonky the doodle may seem to someone.

Regarding crits: I believe that receiving constructive criticism is an important process, and people should not be afraid to give it when asked, and people receiving crits better be ready and should have an open mind when receiving feedback. I often see people write "C& C welcome" when posting final art work. But when someone does give input, the person becomes extremely defensive. I find that some artists have a hard time dealing with criticism mainly because they just can't handle it and deep down don't want to hear anything bad about their work. One cannot grow if one chooses not to hear what others have to say, especially if one wants to work within a team environment. Being open to other opinions in that case is a must.

[jmBoekestein]

Well I know how you feel Hexaditiom, I was at the same point a while back. No idea where to put anything nad going on either instinct or intuition. I can't say I understand what it is now, but I'm getting closer, lol.

I suggest to read up on some topics and then ask people questions... the links ni the art discussion board are good starts, and ofcourse analysing paitings done by others too.


And I'd love some stuff on that too rebecca!!! :)

[Rebeccak]

It's really interesting to hear all of the different views here, and it's great to see how passionate people are about DSG! I think it's great that it forms such a community here, and, as I mentioned previously, it's part of the reason I love the 2D WIP Forum. Welp, looks like I was wrong. ;) 'Nuff said. :)

Cool, Jan~Mark ~ I can't promise anything super inspirational (and I can't do it right away, but I'll try to dig up some of my old notes and rewrite them) but I can certainly give it a go! This will be a great refresher for me, as well, and hopefully I'll learn a lot. :)

Cheers! :)

~Rebeccak

[ButchMakora]

happy to see that my questions and words made such a deep resonance here - even with a new topic! i wasn't answering here so long - because had some work to do and wished to see - what other co-forumers think about it. so here's my own oppinion:

i think that DSG is really a wonderfull idea - which let us all to feel free and piecefull - when we paint and post something. Freedom and art - nice combination. But you see - i think that we must respect ourselves and respect other co-forumers - and post here only the materials - which are really interesting for others - will it be a nice idea, good realization, or strange and new art-style! no sence and interest to the works - which made really poor and have no point at all. i understand - that there's no magic machine - which can judge what IS interesting and what is NOT - i think each one must decide on it's own.
but even so - i'm sure - we can paint and try and seek - to make our art interesting and better. that is why - i think here - in DSG - we NEED to have critiques - even if works won't be refreshed after our words - even if people don't want to hear such words. i'm sure - critiques and advices at one topic - will help authors of paintings to improve their art-works further!

we MUST be carefull and fragile with words we use to correct or advice somebody - but we MUST talk about our mistakes - or our skill-levels will be as poor as a year or two ago.
DSG shouldn't be the place - where people just have fun or joking - we are at greatest international computer graphics forums!!! don't forget - which place we are at! we all need improvements to make our world arts better and better, from one day to another, from one topic to another, from one picture to the next masterpiece!

thanks everybody! don't kill me for my english ;)


P.S.: i think native-english persons - can help others to learn english too ;)))))

[Alice]

When I started posting in the sketchgroup (think I started when it was fairly fresh) everyone posted a comment on the works befor them and then their own picture.
Now, that is helpfull and good and all, but... It also made one hesitate to post cause one didnt always have the time to look through and comment on everything, but could doodle some on the side of the work one did.
Guess thats the downside of it, one doesnt want to go down to history as the selfish bastard who never post replied, :) but one doesnt always have time to do it :(

[jmBoekestein]

Cool Rebecca!!! I can't wait, I have been meaning to start a thread on it in the art discussion board, but I was unsure I'd be able to give the right nudge towards a goal.

And about posting replies and such... I guess it's not really needed, but I think it's not really out of place to ask for help, it's not an obligation at that point ofcourse. That's how I see it, but I wouldn't know about you or others. :)

[Rebeccak]

Jan~Mark,

Thanks for the enthusiasm! The thread has been started, tho I will prolly be a bit slow to complete it:

Composition Tutorials - Coming Soon... (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=272343)

Cheers! :)

~Rebeccak

[electricsketchbook]

WOW, I woke up this morning and saw how many people suddenly posted replyes to this. Reading some of your posts, I see alot of people use DSG the way I do and I kinda figured such. We are a community of support. The work many of us do here falls under the term "ideation" which is just another way of saying "visual thinking." I have worked in think tank groups for companies in the past, and nothing kills the flow of creativity in the brainstorming stage like a person criting anothers idea. Refinement of ideas is religated to the second stage of the creative process. As I see CGTalk now, it has forums for every stage of the creative process:

DSG : Brainstorming
WIP : Refinement of Idea
Finished Work: Fruition of Idea

Everything has it's place. I have often seen a sketch here that, while executed quickly and perhaps sloppily, has at it's heart a great concept and I think to myself "Cool, I hope they take this further." To think that that image may not have been posted or even created if the person felt pressure to be great every time. When I look at peoples sketches, I understand that it is a visual thought and should be encouraged to grow if it has potiential to do so. By giving people a place to brainstorm ideas with some freedom, it also feeds the other forums on CGTalk since the beginnings here could easily transfer over to the other forums at another stage in it's growth. I, myself, have several sketches that I did for DSG that are going to move up to WIP and hopefully to the Finished Works sections as I keep working on them. They would never have started without DSG's format.

Kaylon, makes a great point that people who work in the art industry, in one fashon or another, sometimes use this forum as a way to be creative without pressure. Alice, makes the point that many of us don't have time to post crits and respond to them and that it also creates a hesitation in people to post at all. ekah also mentions the inhibiting nature of turning DSG into a crit forum.

Roberto has already come up with a great idea to push quality into DSG by giving us the chance to vote each week on our favorites in each category. Those who are trying to make their sketches as good as they can have a reward for doing so. It is an excellent idea and motivates many of us to take more time with our sketches but doesn't exclude others with less time. This is another reason why I chose DSG to post in versus other areas of CGTalk.

jmBoekestein, you give a very good solution in writing on your posts essecntially "Help Wanted." It makes sense, if you want help ask for it. I don't think you will get the kind of response you get on other forum here but you will get some. A great idea.

Which brings me to another possible solution. I have seen several people post their DSG sketch in other areas of WIP in order to get crits or responses. I think that is the best solution since it preserves the the unique attributes of DSG and gives the individual what they need as well.

[Gord-MacDonald]

Which brings me to another possible solution. I have seen several people post their DSG sketch in other areas of WIP in order to get crits or responses. I think that is the best solution since it preserves the the unique attributes of DSG and gives the individual what they need as well.

***I agree - good thought!***

DSG is a great place to do drawing, without the pressure of feeling out of place - like your not good enough - I have often seen variants on the posts to the effect of "I know I suck but here is my work anyways". I think these comments are made if the poster is doing a comparitave analysis of their work, in relation to the cream of the posters at DSG (yeah you guys know who you are...:) ).

I think that it is great to have a place where people can show thier work, whatever level they are at, and also have some sense of belonging to a community, and being able to socialize a bit to boot.

There are - and should be forums whose audience/participants, are professional artists, seeking ruthless, and brutally honest "slice and dice" crits. DSG just doesn't happen to be one of them - (hey - lets keep it that way)

Gord

[Rebeccak]

I have to admit it's kind of moving to read everyone's impassioned support of DSG. :)

[RobertoOrtiz]

Guys I think I got something in my eye....


:)

Thanks guys, this thread made my day.
And Rebecca, thanks for your input so far.
-R

[Rebeccak]

Roberto,

Is it an eye booger? Hahahahahahahaha!!! :scream:

Cheers, and great job Roberto!!! :thumbsup:

~Rebeccak

[RobertoOrtiz]

Thanks Rebecca.

Well we have to get Mrs Kimmel to join us one of these days.
I know she has a full schedule, but it would be cool if she posted one
or two sketches.


-R

[Gord-MacDonald]

Roberto,

Is it an eye booger? Hahahahahahahaha!!! :scream:

~Rebeccak

ewwwwwwwww

Gord

[Zoontjens]

heya!

i'd only like to say that people who say they suck must see some relativity. if it's better than before, it's good right? we're all learners..life is nothing but a learning process...i personally only get more motivated when someone says my work is not good, why and how to come over it. and i always challenge myself. it depends on how ambitious you are. if you're here for the social stuff i think this is not the place to be.

the dsg as a creative, visionary team is fantastic. these people could be pioneers, even starting new forms of art! i think it's unique. i just hope that everyone here is ambitious and not solely comes for fun...

when it comes to critiquing (--bad english?) i'd say first list pros then cons. take the learner to the next (and the right) step, not the ultimate! and always be to the point. feeding forward about what element you want to be critiqued helps, as boekesteinmentioned. no point in saying 'awful colours' when it's a monochrome image...keep it effective, efficient, and satisfying (FUN!)

Ralph...shut up and sleep.

[SoniaNotRed]

I think the "critique mode" at DSG goes trough phases.
We've gone trough weeks when people always made the kind of critique you're after and then trough weeks when everybody just kept it short or "nice". It probably also depends on who's posting more frequently at the time...
Still, you can always ask - usually there will be at least one person that will gladly give you a hint.
Or even a full tutorial! :)

[danielh68]

I agree. DSG is really fun. And, on another level it's very inspiring and educational. Some of the work that gets displayed is remarkable. Personally, I have a tendency to find the ARTW finalist's work more evocative than FPs or WIPS. In any case, it's just a great platform to express one's ideas with like-minded artists.


Concerning the initial poster, I'd just speak up and ask for advice. I always thought it would cool to expand upon the theme, by including an exercise in art theory. For example:


Cowboy Fight (warm palette)

Greek Gods (Golden mean)

Paradise Discovered (Complimentary palette)

Battle on Ice (High Key Composition)

Cave Dweller (texture)

etc.


This way, for beginning artists, they can have fun and also become acquainted with the fundamentals.

Whatever the case, Roberto has done an incredible job with the DSG!

[jmBoekestein]

Indeed, it's been great fun all the way!!! :scream:

I wouldn't have made most of my progress without this great place! Aieee! :thumbsup:

[RobertoOrtiz]

Sounds like an upcoming topic week...


-R

[Alice]

Battle on Ice (High Key Composition)

Whats a high key composition? (Guess its the laguage barrier kicking in)
Anyhow, I agree on the the DSG beeing the best place on cgtalk :) I might not enter verry often but it feels great to browse back to when it started and see the progress.

[paperclip]

High key is when a scene contains mostly light tones, relates to music like playing in a higher octave.

[Alice]

oki, so a very pale person in very strong sunlight? :)

[paperclip]

You got it :D

Obviously, you need to balance it out with darker colors, as long as they all relate to each other correctly, you're playing. (Alice: I know you know this, this is just for any newbies who might be reading this)

[Alice]

lol, yes, its frustrating though, I'd love to elaboprate on different techniques and compositions etc on DSG, just that I need them explained to me sometimes. Mainly cause I dont know all the english terms.

[paperclip]

That would suck, having to read cgtalk in a language that is not your own!! so tough, den ar cool... that you are able to do that!!

[jud]

I have participated in the DSG just a few times and found it to be a very freindly non-judgemental place to post some work and having a topic and a daily deadline was a great way to practice my long abandoned skills.....
"A deadline has a wonderful way of concentrating the mind" prof. Moriarty (star trek)

I think maybe once I got a comment, and it did help encourage me to keep at it, but I think people are here to improve themselves and while doing that, it does not help to get negative comments, such as a childs drawing no matter how crap it looks they will always be told "ohh thats really pretty" etc. so as to not discourage the child...not that anyone here is that young even though thay might act that way.

[Overchord]

Been looking at DSG for a long time, but have just recently acquired the hardware and courage to start participating :) But having said that - the DSG is a wonderful place to try out ideas, see how others take completely different turns on the same couple of words ,and in general to be inspired by others. IMO - the DSG is not necessarily so much about the final delivery as it is about the ideas for composition, twist of the meaning - so I guess those would be the main points for general critique.
Having said that - I don't see any harm in getting general critique/tips on how to improve either - but its a bit dificult to keep up and give well-considered comments to that amount of drawings.
Would it be an idea to have the daily sketches plus a weekly topic where people could emerge themselves - or maybe that would be too much :shrug:

[elmasfeo]

well, I don't have a clear opinion about this critiquing thing, because it's true that nobody can post "serious" crits on everybody's job and that these sketches are (most of the times) not going to be developed further, and I agree with most of you about the use of the DSG as an "ideas pool", but...

but it should also help people improve, and sometimes I feel that people that show some progress in their art just do it out of luck, walking blinded, for example, I would try some new ideas for myself, and when I see that something looks good, I would try to continue doing that same thing in future images, but maybe there could be a little more help if instead of saying "Great pic!" people would post comments like "I like what you've done with the lights" or "I don't like the palette you used (or whatever)", that's not really a crit because you're not saying how to solve the problems, but it helps the person to focus on a specific thing that could've passed unnoticed, and it doesn't take a lot of time to the "critiquer" (did I invent this word?)

I also miss a bit the days when in every thread there was one or more people commenting on everybody's work, even if it was just a good job comment, I know there are still people commenting on everybody, but... it takes time to write all of that, as alice pointed

and I agree with asking for specific help when posting an image, or telling people what were you focusing at... it's a good idea for progressing

[HellBoy]

Indeed, it's been great fun all the way!!! :scream:

I wouldn't have made most of my progress without this great place! Aieee! :thumbsup:

even if you own a wacom its funner than fun,

watch when my one arrrives :twisted:

[jud]

but it should also help people improve

I agree, but the best way to improve is to practice, and I think that is the essence of the DSG,
after doing a sketch a day for say....5-7 months you will notice a considerable difference between your first peice and your latest, as you practice you will naturally pick up certain things and come to many realisations about how something should look and how to go about painting that look through your own style and "experience".

I have only particapated in spurts and have not posted in ages because my volito 2 is broken,but before I got up the guts to post anything I could not finish anything I started but after deciding to "take on a topic" and having a daily deadline to deal with I actually managed to finish and post an image, which for me was a moment, I then posted a few more and found myself becoming more bold and taking more chances and it helped alot....now all I need is an intuos 3 A5 to get me back practicing.

[TobyArt]

I've only been posting for a couple weeks, but it has been incredible. I've watched my skills go up, learned and tried new things. Saw art work that left me stunned. And spilled out creativity that I forgot I had.
Roberto, you've created something great. I agree that usually there is no time to post crit, or improve critiqued work. I think improvement will come over time, just seeing all the art works can be their own form of critique. And we are very lucky to have such a huge asset (tutorials, WIP, FW, etc..) in this website.
Love the idea to do a week of focused technique sketches, could be fun.

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