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Julez4001
11-04-2002, 06:01 PM
I know there are lot of lightwave heads that use messiah:animate and render with LW but here are a few renders froma n artist by Kelly Jones. As 3dsMax has 14 renderers (because they need them) ..its nce to know of possible alternative for LW if you are looking for a different feel without having do post work.

messiah:render still has a long way to go for production (in my opinion).

http://home.iprimus.com.au/interpol/dragon.jpg
http://home.iprimus.com.au/interpol/b_rnd8.jpg
http://home.iprimus.com.au/interpol/bonsai_02.jpg

tobe
11-04-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Julez4001
I know there are lot of lightwave heads that use messiah:animate and render with LW but here are a few renders froma n artist by Kelly Jones.


Actually the images are by me, as you'll notice my name on some of the pictures. Anyway, thank you for posting the images here, Julez.

Simeon Nasilowski

Chewey
11-04-2002, 06:41 PM
Nice images, Kelly...opps! I mean Simeon!

roger
11-04-2002, 10:11 PM
I really like your dragon. :)
Good job! :applause:

takkun
11-04-2002, 10:50 PM
kelly jones!!! the comic book artist!! ohh, no... guess not.

baby
11-04-2002, 11:14 PM
:buttrock:

Julez4001
11-04-2002, 11:48 PM
Sorry Simeon.... I must glimpse at te text. and Saw that Kelly replied to you. I am so Sorry man... I wish I could edit the thread line.

tobe
11-05-2002, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Julez4001
Sorry Simeon.... I must glimpse at te text. and Saw that Kelly replied to you. I am so Sorry man...

No problem :)

I wish I could edit the thread line.

Just a note: isn't this possible by pressing the 'edit' button in the lower right corner of your post?

Thanks,

Simeon

Facial Deluxe
11-05-2002, 06:49 AM
Those pics are superb.
Could you tell us more about the renderer, and what's wrong with the production ? Too long? bad interface ?

tobe
11-05-2002, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Facial Deluxe
Those pics are superb.
Could you tell us more about the renderer, and what's wrong with the production ? Too long? bad interface ?

Nothing is wrong with using it in production, not sure why Julez said that. I find it fast, clean, and the shader flow is very powerful. There are some features missing still though (motion blur on objects, UV mapping [note: UV info/coordinates are there, it just doesn't read that info from the object formats yet... but you can manipulate them in a number of ways already]).

But the core is very stable, it can handle lots of geometry, and in terms of brute force, messiah's GI rendering (and especially area lights / shadows) are much faster than Lightwave. Not that Lightwave is slow (it has tricks like shading-noise reduction and vertex/surface baking to speed it up), but in brute force zero-tolerence GI and area lights, messiah is much quicker.

Also, the renderman-like shading language is a lot of fun to play with :). I can give you more details on the renderer if you need them.

Thanks for the compliments on my images :),

Simeon

Edit: corrections, formatting

Facial Deluxe
11-05-2002, 07:06 AM
Yes, I'd be very happy to hear some user opinion. Please tell me more if you wish. The Pmg site says nothing. BTW, what kind of prod are u personaly doing with messiah ?
Thanx.

Julez4001
11-05-2002, 07:23 AM
What I mean is that its not production-ready for practical use. the particle engine works but no shaders for particles..no motion blur. UVs can a minor to major setback. No post effects (say lensflare), not a slew of differiating procedurals and "to die for " rendering speed - its not totally optimize.

If you had your choice... i would pick LW renderer. Even PMG admits its not finish.

Now animate on the other hand is really production worthy.

tobe
11-05-2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Julez4001
What I mean is that its not production-ready for practical use. the particle engine works but no shaders for particles..no motion blur. UVs can a minor to major setback. No post effects (say lensflare), not a slew of differiating procedurals and "to die for " rendering speed - its not totally optimize.

Oh, I definately agree it's not finished - that's why it's still beta. But it has all the basic stuff in there you need to use it. I don't think it would suit the majority of situations just yet, but it's quite capable in its current state.

I think pmG have something really cool planned for post effects :), as well as particle rendering.

About procedurals though, messiah has the basic building blocks you need to come up with just about anything, you can simulate different procedurals by plugging noise into noise into noise, to get stuff that looks like turbulence and fractal noise, gradients are very powerful also (especially the ability to compute a gradient as a specular highlight), the way you can make low glossiness wrap a specular highlight around the back of an object is useful too.

And shader scripts let you come up with any other procedural pattern. I wrote a simple shader that uses other objects to influence an object's shading, it only took a few lines of code (of course, messiah has this built in with the WeightSpot shader and effectors).

Anyway, I agree, it's definately still a beta program, but the core is there, it's stable and quite fast.

Simeon

tal flint
11-05-2002, 11:15 AM
great images.
i really should find the time to play with the renderer.
any tips on building shaders and setting up the renderer.

i'm doing a desert scene right now and i'm using LW to surface and animate using procedural textures (like turbulance,dented,multi fractal etc.)

how would you create the same textures in messiah ?

Tal

www.tal-flint.com

tobe
11-05-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by tal flint
great images.
i really should find the time to play with the renderer.
any tips on building shaders and setting up the renderer.

i'm doing a desert scene right now and i'm using LW to surface and animate using procedural textures (like turbulance,dented,multi fractal etc.)

how would you create the same textures in messiah ?

Tal

www.tal-flint.com

Thanks Tal,

I'm not sure exactly how to create the exact same textures, I usually experiment until I get what I want. I always treat noise as the basic building block for all other random patterns (and gradient as the building block for all lighting and shading). That is, if you wanted to break up a noise pattern, you can plug a small noise shader into that noise shader's opacity, then another into the contrast, and if you keep extending this, you come up with all sorts of variations on the basic noise idea.

Adjusting the UV coordinates of the noise shader with another noise shader takes this further. You can keep adding and adding until the final pattern is something entirely different from what you started with.

I suppose there are some limitations, I still haven't found a way to mimic Lightwave's crumple procedural using only standard noise in messiah, but I imagine you could come close using the Grid shader script combined with noise.

I always like to think of it as if I'm building a new procedural pattern from a bunch of nodes, rather than selecting a pre-defined procedural from a list.

Anyway, if you look at the inputs and outputs on a node, you'll notice that you can control everything about that node. That is, you can use a shader to define the size/scaling of another shader, the position, or even the axis and type of projection a texture is using at a given point on a surface.

I learnt it mostly by plugging everything into everything else and looking at how it affected the outcome of my render, now I think about it in terms of what pixels are being blended at a certain stage in the shader-flow (no more trial-and-error), but messiah is quite forgiving when you just want to experiment and put anything anywhere.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific, In Lightwave I never really use much besides fractal noise and crumple, I never got to looking at all the new procedurals introduced with 6.0 and later :).

Hope this helps,

Simeon

tal flint
11-05-2002, 01:30 PM
thanks Simeon

that was more than enough to get me started :-)

Tal

ww.tal-flint.com

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