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philhoole
08-24-2005, 06:18 PM
Hi,

After months of lurking I finally registered !

I was just about to click on Confirm on the Cebas site to preorder FR2 when I noticed that the price is 495 when I was expecting to pay $495. I guess Cebas are playing the 1=1$ game which I don't really like. It's a bit naughty really as the FR2 pages only mention a $ price.

I suppose I'll just have to live with their policy as I'm 99% still going to preorder.

Eon software are doing the same thing with Vue Infinite and I walked away from upgrading to that from Vue4.

I don't really want this to turn this into a big /$ thing - Just to confirm that the price really is 495 ?

Thanks

Phil

Srek
08-24-2005, 07:31 PM
Hi,
take a look here
http://www.cebas.com/news/read.php?UD=10-7888-33-788&NID=107
Better contact cebas on pricing issues not a public forum that is not run by cebas.
Cheers
Bjrn

duderender
08-24-2005, 07:39 PM
This is right from their site:

When you order in July and August 2005, you will get one full interactive finalRender Stage-2 license for this special price (US$ 495). One pre-order per user or address is allowed.
All orders placed before September 2005 will be treated as pre-orders. Your credit card will not be charged until we are actually able to ship the product in september. Pre-Ordering is necessary, to get the super special price of US$ 495

pit
08-24-2005, 08:05 PM
And this is what Edwin Braun (Cebas) answered as I asked the same question:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=258916&page=9&pp=15&highlight=revolution

Ernest Burden
08-24-2005, 08:18 PM
This is right from their site:
When you order in July and August 2005, you will get one full interactive finalRender Stage-2 license for this special price (US$ 495). One pre-order per user or address is allowed.


Poopie! I didn't get that 'one' part before now. According to Cebas, I will need two licences if I buy the Boxx quad/dual core machine (which I would like to do). They count each core, one licence good for four.

So I figured I would pre-order two licences, which is what I did with Maxwell. But reading that I can only order one means I will pay more for the second.

Poopie.

flingster
08-24-2005, 09:38 PM
this is always what companies say..eg the Adobe bandeetos...or the microsoft high seas pirates.... ;-)

the difference in currency rates has been like this for the last two years...funny how it always works in companies favours that...they make a profit on the us buyer...so why the mark-up...but hey i've heard all the arguements before from maxon included..and still think it a cop out..but they are entitled to price how they like and you as a user are entitled to buy or not buy as the case may be...however on a very important side note us europeans are still getting it cheaper than the final price...some consolation in the end i think.

vesalus
08-24-2005, 09:42 PM
...the difference in currency rates has been like this for the last two years...funny how it always works in companies favours that...they make a profit on the us buyer...


and computer maker, charges us europeans buyers... :D

moka.studio
08-24-2005, 09:45 PM
Poopie! I didn't get that 'one' part before now. According to Cebas, I will need two licences if I buy the Boxx quad/dual core machine (which I would like to do). They count each core, one licence good for four.
Poopie.

Are you sure about that?
Is the BOxx quad a 4 processor, 8core, or 2process 4 core machine ( forgive my ignorance ;) )
I can't recall, but I thought you get up to 4 processors, regardless of songle or dual.
jp

lllab
08-24-2005, 09:46 PM
you really get that boxx beast - wow!

how much is it? 10k, or15k?
thats kind of a dream to have a quad dual core...i tried to calculate what it would cost to built it myself, i stopped when i saw the prices for the 8xx opterons...

freaky thing,...guess i wait until 2006, then dualcore will be cheaper.

cheers:-)
stefan

moka.studio
08-24-2005, 09:49 PM
you really get that boxx beast - wow!

how much is it? 10k, or15k?
thats kind of a dream to have a quad dual core...i tried to calculate what it would cost to built it myself, i stopped when i saw the prices for the 8xx opterons...

freaky thing,...guess i wait until 2006, then dualcore will be cheaper.

cheers:-)
stefan

That answers my question ...

dann_stubbs
08-24-2005, 10:22 PM
Poopie! I didn't get that 'one' part before now. According to Cebas, I will need two licences if I buy the Boxx quad/dual core machine (which I would like to do). They count each core, one licence good for four.

So I figured I would pre-order two licences, which is what I did with Maxwell. But reading that I can only order one means I will pay more for the second.

Poopie.

well it will be all of $100 more ($595) to get another render license - hardly anything to gripe about if you are spending $10k on a computer.

dann

mlmiller1983
08-24-2005, 11:08 PM
The Cebas website says this:

Pricing starts from US$ 695 for a single workstation license including a total of 10 Distributed Network Rendering CPUs. All orders placed within the cebas Online Store in July and August 2005 will be offered for a pre-order price of US$ 495 (special price valid for first order, only).

Thats not bad at all, 10 network renderng CPUs in one license.

dann_stubbs
08-24-2005, 11:33 PM
The Cebas website says this:

Pricing starts from US$ 695 for a single workstation license including a total of 10 Distributed Network Rendering CPUs. All orders placed within the cebas Online Store in July and August 2005 will be offered for a pre-order price of US$ 495 (special price valid for first order, only).

Thats not bad at all, 10 network renderng CPUs in one license.

just to clarify - those don't work with NET - they only work as DR (distributed rendering) nodes for the bucket rendering.

i assume you can assign an animation to render frames as 1 bucket (therefore not tiling) but you are limited to using the cebas render manager for this as well as they have indicated it may not be the most efficient way to render full frames. just fyi from what i have gathered.

dann

mlmiller1983
08-25-2005, 12:56 AM
just to clarify - those don't work with NET - they only work as DR (distributed rendering) nodes for the bucket rendering.

i assume you can assign an animation to render frames as 1 bucket (therefore not tiling) but you are limited to using the cebas render manager for this as well as they have indicated it may not be the most efficient way to render full frames. just fyi from what i have gathered.

dann

Well that killed my joy! Oh well still a good renderer though!

Ernest Burden
08-25-2005, 02:04 AM
you really get that boxx beast - wow!
how much is it? 10k, or15k?

Yes! Boxx gave me a ballpark of about US$14K at the LA show, but pointed out that was with many terabytes of high-speed storage on board (like you would want to edit a feature film on one machine). With more normal drives they said it could be more like $10K.

It seems like a lot, but I was already thinking of putting together a small eight CPU farm. But with that CPU count in one machine I don't have to do the network wiring, , electrical wiring maybe, keyboards, video (or a switch), 4 or 8 UPSs, etc. It all adds up, plus the time to set it all up. The machine must run a server OS, but that's going to be in the cost. And Boxxes are really stable and well supported.

Anyway, back to FR--I was confused about how the licencing would work on the quad/dualcore so I emailed them to ask. They mentioned the 10 CPU bucket thing, which is great, but otherwise you get four CPUs, and they said specifically that a dualcore counts (to them) as two CPUs.

OK, how would I use FR to render animation, for example? The buckets would revolutionize my stills work, but if FR doesn't run under NetRender, just how would you use it?

You see, still confused.

Oh, and thanks for pointing out the $100 difference, I assumed it would be more than that.

dann_stubbs
08-25-2005, 02:27 AM
OK, how would I use FR to render animation, for example? The buckets would revolutionize my stills work, but if FR doesn't run under NetRender, just how would you use it?

you could use the cebas render manager to (guessing based on discussions) set a 1 bucket limit per frame and let it farm out 8 frames at a time to your processors.

and it would work with NET on that 1 computer - but it would use NET as an 8 thread single NET client. (with the two licenses) the difference i was trying to explain is the 10 DR cleints are not able to be utilized as 10 NET FR clients. you will need once license for each computer acting as a NET client. (yeah became a whole lot more expensive on my quote from when i thought the cebas licenses were for 4 cpu's - as in total - not up to 4 cpus per computer)

again, all educated guesses until the real thing shows up - but i'm pretty sure this is how it works.

dann

Ernest Burden
08-25-2005, 02:41 AM
It would be really helpful if Cebas would chime in and explain this to us. It's still confused.

Edwin Braun
08-25-2005, 08:46 AM
It would be really helpful if Cebas would chime in and explain this to us. It's still confused.

OK, I already tried to explain it but I try once more:

One finalRender Stage-2 license is good for a maximum of 10 CPUs (with a max of 4 Local CPUs). So if you have 2 Local CPU's you can have 8 other CPU's in the Distributed Network Rendering mode (short:DR). If you have a 4 Processor Machine you can have 6 additional DR slaves. Or if you happen to have a single CPU you can have 9 additonal DR machines.

HT CPU's do not count as a real CPU - so this extra 30% is free power for you! However dualcore CPU's are treated as real 2 CPU's this is how they are built and promoted by all vendors (AMD and INTEL).

Now the pricing issue (not gain!):
I know this seems a bit strange to have it 1:1 right now. But as we do not adjuts the pricing every day we must fix the price to something that makes sense.
As stupid as it may sound for you Europeans, $495 (without Tax) is equal to 495. For each user living in his country this price is a real bargain! It would not make sense for us to make the US price to $576,3456 or adjust the Euro price to smething like 473.77. Yes, I know you always want to pay the cheapest price :D.
But for us this is also a pain as we do not get the money we would need and we are not in control of the international exchange rates.
I would suggest you just do not look at the dollar price and decide if this is ok for you or not. As maybe in taiwan dollars or china dollars this might be even cheaper!

I'm absoluetly sure that our pricing is a great bargain for a european customer.
edwin

jondoe0ne
08-25-2005, 09:42 AM
HT CPU's do not count as a real CPU - so this extra 30% is free power for you! However dualcore CPU's are treated as real 2 CPU's this is how they are built and promoted by all vendors (AMD and INTEL).

and what happens when somebody who has a dual core proc (not my case but i wish i had one) buys only one license, how will FR work on his machine?

EDIT: And what is the release date for FR ?(when in sptember???)

lllab
08-25-2005, 10:27 AM
Hi Edwin,

i think the price is fair enough, i will get a 2cpu dualcore(4cores) soon, so i am happy with the 4 cpu per machine system:-)

on your shop it says this item is released on september1st-is that true, is it a download, so that we have instant access?

i have a big archviz job - starting september- to do and i am burning to use FR for it!

cheers
stefan

dann_stubbs
08-25-2005, 11:21 AM
Hi Edwin,

i think the price is fair enough, i will get a 2cpu dualcore(4cores) soon, so i am happy with the 4 cpu per machine system:-)

on your shop it says this item is released on september1st-is that true, is it a download, so that we have instant access?

i have a big archviz job - starting september- to do and i am burning to use FR for it!


i found that in one place it says starting september and another says end of september. (with osx etc after that)

http://www.finalrender.com/news/read.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&NID=106

here says end (near the bottom in the pricing paragraph)

but at the store page

http://shop.cebasserver.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=102

it says "This product will be in stock on Thursday 01 September, 2005."

i guess we will need futher clarification from edwin. (some of the added questions, osx availability etc would be nice to get updated on too)

dann

Ernest Burden
08-25-2005, 11:54 AM
you could use the cebas render manager to (guessing based on discussions) set a 1 bucket limit per frame and let it farm out 8 frames at a time to your processors.

and it would work with NET on that 1 computer - but it would use NET as an 8 thread single NET client. (with the two licenses)

So FR would work with NR. That's good to know. Now, NR works with other machines via their IP addresses. With the server OS on a machine with more than two cores, you would be able to set up each core as a virtual PC with its own IP (wouldn't you?) and therefore it seems I could have NetRender see 8 PCs capable of running NR. They would just all be housed in one attractive computer case sitting on my desk.

So that's two licences.

Unless there is a different way to have FR render animation frames using the one bucket per frame idea, and therefore using only one licence. So figuring out how this works is the difference between buying one licence or two. Not a huge big deal overall, but for you Dann, it is. And I have an 8 CPU licence for Maxwell, should that product end up being useful.

STRAT
08-25-2005, 12:23 PM
The buckets would revolutionize my stills work


i know what buckets are, but have never used them or have experience with them directly (except for when draining my garden pond). how will it revolutionize your stills rendering?

jondoe0ne
08-25-2005, 12:29 PM
it means that by bucket rendering we will be able to render a still on different comps...

P.S. : does anybody know the answer to my previous question?

moka.studio
08-25-2005, 12:51 PM
it means that by bucket rendering we will be able to render a still on different comps...

P.S. : does anybody know the answer to my previous question?

SRAT, Jondoeone is right, you can do distributed for stills, which is really helpfull if you are rendering complex scenes with GI, BLURS etc.... That's a BIG thing to have !


and what happens when somebody who has a dual core proc (not my case but i wish i had one) buys only one license, how will FR work on his machine?

What do you mean by Dual Core Proc ( proc?) - from the post above fro Edwin, dual core machines are considered as 2 processors, so 2x2 .
jp

Edwin Braun
08-25-2005, 01:25 PM
Sorry about the Date mess!

It is September - that's the expected delivery month :D

Please register with our CINEMA 4D newletter at: http://www.cebas.com/m_list/lists/
We will announce any shifts or news there.

As far as we can see it now we are pretty sure September is good. The first release might be for 9.1x and the dedicated 9.5 Release will come short after that. So when Maxon ships the version we might be ready for it.
9.1 and 9.5 need different translators as the SDK has changed a bit and we are able to support much more in 9.5.

edwin

jondoe0ne
08-25-2005, 01:32 PM
c'mon guys!
i have a simple question... still nobody wants to answer, not even edwin...

IF I HAVE A DUAL PROC SYSTEM AND I BUY ONLY ONE FR LICENSE HOW IS IT GOING TO WORK????

moka.studio
08-25-2005, 01:34 PM
c'mon guys!
i have a simple question... still nobody wants to answer, not even edwin...

IF I HAVE A DUAL PROC SYSTEM AND I BUY ONLY ONE FR LICENSE HOW IS IT GOING TO WORK????


care to explain what a dual proc system is?

jondoe0ne
08-25-2005, 01:38 PM
a dual core processor system is a simple computer that besides all other parts (hard disk, ram and so on...) has a processor or a cpu that has a dual core (e.g. pentium d 840 or athlon x2).

EDIT: soryy cuz i was in a hurry i forgot about the core word... hahaha.

FredSpeaks
08-25-2005, 01:42 PM
c'mon guys!
i have a simple question... still nobody wants to answer, not even edwin...

IF I HAVE A DUAL PROC SYSTEM AND I BUY ONLY ONE FR LICENSE HOW IS IT GOING TO WORK????


Sounds like if you have a dual processor machine, you will use 2 of the 4 cpus that are allowed by the liscense. And in a Distributed rendering situation, you would use 2 of the cpus, leaving 8 others for DR on other machines.

moka.studio
08-25-2005, 01:43 PM
a dual processor system is a simple computer that besides all other parts (hard disk, ram and so on...) has a processor or a cpu that has a dual core (e.g. pentium d 840 or athlon x2).

Ok, so PROC just meant processor ( I thought it was something new) .... I know what a cual core is, and I know what a dual processor system is. - in fact I have a couple starring at me from the corner of the room ;)

Then this is easy. 2 Processors, each with a dual core = 4 processors, which means that if you buy a FR license you still have 6 processors that can be used for the distributed rendering, in addition to this PC.

Ernest Burden
08-25-2005, 01:47 PM
Come on, read the thread. I, and Dann, have answered that to the best of our ability.

Cebas counts a dual core as two CPUs. FR2 will bucket render on up to 10 CPUs addressable on your network, whether thats one PC, five or ten.

I am still struggling to understand how the FR2 licence will count for animation, but that seems to depend on whether that is done through NetRender or Cebas'es render system.

dann_stubbs
08-25-2005, 01:59 PM
So FR would work with NR. That's good to know. Now, NR works with other machines via their IP addresses. With the server OS on a machine with more than two cores, you would be able to set up each core as a virtual PC with its own IP (wouldn't you?) and therefore it seems I could have NetRender see 8 PCs capable of running NR. They would just all be housed in one attractive computer case sitting on my desk.

So that's two licences.

Unless there is a different way to have FR render animation frames using the one bucket per frame idea, and therefore using only one licence. So figuring out how this works is the difference between buying one licence or two. Not a huge big deal overall, but for you Dann, it is. And I have an 8 CPU licence for Maxwell, should that product end up being useful.

i don't think so using NET as 8 separate NET clients. you would have to have 8 instances of NET client running - and then you would need to use a full version of C4D to set the thread limit to 1 and then try to get each NET cleint to use that setting.

as for virtual OS - that might work but having 8 different renders i would image cause havoc with disk and VM access. most server type work is more processor intensive then disk intensive in that situation (unlike internet hosting etc - lots of small files)

i think the 1 bucket thing would suffer similar throuput issues... although both in theory will probably work.

dann

interactiveBoy
08-25-2005, 02:07 PM
I question whether the licensing policy would allow you to even use all your processors in that quad/dual core machine. It sounds like the licensing only supports up to 4 processors locally. Unless it allows stacking 2 licenses on one machine, those other 4 processors are going to go unused.

I'm wondering what difference it makes for the DR bucket rendering to do a whole frame in one bucket, or just split up the frames like you would for a still? say I've got 30 frames of animation, and I set it up for DR using Cebas' render manager in fR. Frame 1 is split up between the clients as buckets...as the last few buckets for that frame are being rendered, the first few buckets for the next frame are distributed. On the controlling end (the render manager) the buckets are received from the clients and joined together to make solid whole frames. What advantage (other than less network traffic) is there to having the buckets be limited to whole frames? (as Dann has suggested) If it were not for the additional network traffic, would splitting the frames up as we do with stills be even faster?

jondoe0ne
08-25-2005, 02:10 PM
Ok, so PROC just meant processor ( I thought it was something new) .... I know what a cual core is, and I know what a dual processor system is. - in fact I have a couple starring at me from the corner of the room ;)

Then this is easy. 2 Processors, each with a dual core = 4 processors, which means that if you buy a FR license you still have 6 processors that can be used for the distributed rendering, in addition to this PC.

ok so now i understand... if i were to have a dual core processor (only one processor with two cores ;) ) and i would buy only one FR license, then FR won't use just half of my dual core processor, but the whole processor, just that one core is like master and one slave... am i right?
so if u have a dual core processor u won't have to buy two licenses for the two cores in order to get FR to work properly...

lllab
08-25-2005, 02:15 PM
hi Edwin,

is it beginning or end of september?
(9.5 is shipped on beginning.)

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
08-25-2005, 02:25 PM
i don't think so using NET as 8 separate NET clients. you would have to have 8 instances of NET client running - and then you would need to use a full version of C4D to set the thread limit to 1 and then try to get each NET cleint to use that setting.

I have my master C4D set at two threads (with a singe AMD CPU). What does NR do on the other machines? Who knows, NetClient gives no usable feedback. But it works.

If you had the server OS set up eight virtual PC, each with an IP, then why not have each running an instance of NetClient? You are right about the harddrive issues, but I'm sure that's been addressed somewhere.

AdamT
08-25-2005, 02:31 PM
hi Edwin,

is it beginning or end of september?
(9.5 is shipped on beginning.)

cheers
stefan
I think Edwin already answered that, i.e., they're not sure yet.

moka.studio
08-25-2005, 03:05 PM
ok so now i understand... if i were to have a dual core processor (only one processor with two cores ;) ) and i would buy only one FR license, then FR won't use just half of my dual core processor, but the whole processor, just that one core is like master and one slave... am i right?
so if u have a dual core processor u won't have to buy two licenses for the two cores in order to get FR to work properly...

dual cores are no problem, just as they are not a problem with C4d's native renderer.
a dual core normally CB'S at 180% of a single core equivalent.
Jondoe, if you buy 1 license, it can use up to 10 processors. And as someone pointed out before, the price for extra licenses ( if you ever have a render farm) seem very, very reasonable.
jp

Hilt
08-25-2005, 03:05 PM
Did I get this right: I ordered machine with Dual Opteron Model 275 from Boxx tech. I need two licenses for fR to make it render at full?
If so, I must say I'm not keen of artificially making the price go up. I always wondered why companies dont sell software on 'per user'-licence.. Must be this thing 'profit' they're talking about

lllab
08-25-2005, 03:11 PM
hi hilt,
your machine has 2 dualcores, that equals 4cpus/cores- thats only one license of FR needed.

so it is ok.

cheers
stefan

moka.studio
08-25-2005, 03:13 PM
Did I get this right: I ordered machine with Dual Opteron Model 275 from Boxx tech. I need two licenses for fR to make it render at full?


If the machine is a dual core-cual dual processor, that means you have 4 local cpu's, which means that you need 1 license. And you can use up to 6 other, remote, cpu's to render ( and that also means to render the same image).
And in any case, as someone pointed out before, extra licenses are very reasonably priced, if you are buying high-end workstations, are 100.-- more really an issue?


If so, I must say I'm not keen of artificially making the price go up. I always wondered why companies dont sell software on 'per user'-licence.. Must be this thing 'profit' they're talking about

Well yes, they are a company, not a charity. If the price shocks you, have a look sometimes at the price of MentalRay....
AS far a charging per cpu, most high end render engines work that way anyway, brazil, MR ( FR) ---

dann_stubbs
08-25-2005, 05:45 PM
I have my master C4D set at two threads (with a singe AMD CPU). What does NR do on the other machines? Who knows, NetClient gives no usable feedback. But it works.

If you had the server OS set up eight virtual PC, each with an IP, then why not have each running an instance of NetClient? You are right about the harddrive issues, but I'm sure that's been addressed somewhere.

NET clients seem to default to the "optimum" setting - which is 1 thread per processor.

supposedly you can save the c4d prefs out from your c4d application and then copy that to the NET clients and they will use the threading setting from that c4d application preference. (i've never tested it though)

so by default on that system it would use 8 threads (8 cores)

dann

flingster
08-25-2005, 08:21 PM
ok i'm losing the discussion here.

i want to know...first if you have "Distributed Network Rendering mode" from FR then why even use net render anyways? why not just use FRs version of net rendering? instead of maxons...

why are you doing frames of animation or series of stills from animation as buckets in the first place...why not just use the Distributed Network Rendering mode FR net rendering thingy to do the same sort of thing you'd do in maxons net render but essentially do it through FR net render...does this make sense..?

i can't see the point of doing this one frame bucket unless its just a case of working with the amount of license given in a pre order purchase and extra nodes are expensive...or is this essentially the point to avoid extra unnecessary costs for more nodes?

please point a confooooozed flingster and put him outta his misery...lol
:)

Thalaxis
08-25-2005, 08:53 PM
ok i'm losing the discussion here.

i want to know...first if you have "Distributed Network Rendering mode" from FR then why even use net render anyways? why not just use FRs version of net rendering? instead of maxons...


I've wondered the same thing... if the fR distributed render manager supports animation, there's no reason I can think of to use CinemaNET with it unless it's a royal pain in the a** to manage.

(I don't expect that to be the case.)


why are you doing frames of animation or series of stills from animation as buckets in the first place...why not just use the Distributed Network Rendering mode FR net rendering thingy to do the same sort of thing you'd do in maxons net render but essentially do it through FR net render...does this make sense..?


The question makes sense, in that I understand what you're asking :)

The only thing I can think of is network overhead with buckets, but as long as the render time per bucket is large compared to the time it takes to send the rendered bucket back, it shouldn't cause a hit in performance. The catch is in how fR sends out data; if each node caches the scene and just queries the server for which part to render next, it won't matter too much, I think.

I could be missing something else, though.


i can't see the point of doing this one frame bucket unless its just a case of working with the amount of license given in a pre order purchase and extra nodes are expensive...or is this essentially the point to avoid extra unnecessary costs for more nodes?

please point a confooooozed flingster and put him outta his misery...lol
:)

Edwin did say that fR's distributed render manager supports animation, right? So the only limitation it imposes is that you have to choose between using fR DR manager vs CinemaNET, AFAIK.

Of course, for animations, bucket rendering doesn't matter as much, so all you'll have to do is experiment a bit with a shot, decide which one you like better, and stick with that. Then just go back fR's manager when you need a huge still and want to distribute it :)

flingster
08-25-2005, 10:06 PM
cheers bud maybe i wasn't so confooooozed afterall then...thanks..:thumbsup:

jackb602
08-25-2005, 10:21 PM
The part I'm still confused about is why the pricing changes dramatically depending on whether you want to use fR with Net Render for animations, or you just want to use fR to distribute the frames. I figured this out a while ago, and for an 8 CPU farm, the first option would cost roughly $2400 (as I recall) and the latter would only cost $595 after the special pricing ends. I assume there must be some advantage that would make me want to spend $2400, but I don't see what it is. Can anyone explain? Please convince me that the $2400 option would make my life much easier somehow.

Jack

dann_stubbs
08-26-2005, 12:11 AM
The part I'm still confused about is why the pricing changes dramatically depending on whether you want to use fR with Net Render for animations, or you just want to use fR to distribute the frames. I figured this out a while ago, and for an 8 CPU farm, the first option would cost roughly $2400 (as I recall) and the latter would only cost $595 after the special pricing ends. I assume there must be some advantage that would make me want to spend $2400, but I don't see what it is. Can anyone explain? Please convince me that the $2400 option would make my life much easier somehow.

i am curious too - the only info we have to go on is edwin said it was very network intensive to use in that DR full frame way - this was in the first thread i think, the one that announced it before siggraph.

also NET for many users provides a group and admin based render management that i'm sure many small to mid size shops do use - yeah it is a definately a bit more expensive to purchase full licenses for each cpu over the DR way for sure - and yeah i do agree it is sort of confusing still as to the real need or benefits of both ways besides the NET Server web based managment part... i guess soon enough we may start to see for ourselves.

i'm curious too, as i purchased the osx version when it will ship - but i have enough pc's that i could easily make use of the cebas render manager to render DR on them - as well as i own maya and can use it that way but i'm not sure if i will receive the maya plugin too or the ability to use my first c4d master seat on maya?. (the new usb key option of maya7 lets you install maya on any platform - mac, pc or linux - and simply move the key between them to use any install - great for laptop modeling too then back to the desktop for heavier 3d work)

certainly a quite a few other valid FR2 questions in these threads left to be answered among these ones... i hate to wish time away but i sure wish it would hurry so i can plan my next decisions once i can see for myself i guess (since there are no apparent answers being given yet)

dann

Shane W
08-26-2005, 01:12 AM
The main reason to use DR would be to quickly complete one still image on multiple computers. The way finalRender currently works under Max is like this: You start the fR client app on the computers you want to use as DR servers, then you select Distributed rendering from inside Max, the DR list in Max will tell you what machines are online to distribute the rendering to. Hit render, their will be a delay as the scene is sent and synchronized between the computers participating in the rendering. ( some times this can take a long time depending on your scenes complexity) the rendering will start you will see a bucket for every computer currently rendering. The computer you sent the rendering from must be involved in the distributed rendering (get a cup of coffee because you can't work on your workstation during the rendering). It renders the pre-pass then needs to synchronize between all the computers again be for the final pass (this again takes some time) then it renders the final pass and saves. A cool feature is you can assign different colors to you farm computers so when it's doing a distributed renderings you can see a color border around each bucket and know what computer is rendering what bucket. The set up time between all the computers in your farm can take a significant amount of time so for animations it's not a very good solution. Net render I think would be much faster and more reliable. I am basing my opinion on how finalRender works currently with Max, so I could be completely wrong about fR2 for Cinema. People seem to also be confused about bucket rendering. It has nothing to do with network rendering. Its just the way the image is broken up during rendering of a single frame. If you have a dual processor you will see 2 buckets, dual processor with hyper treading would be four buckets. It's kinda like in Cinema you will get a scan line for every processor or thread involved in the rendering. The advantage of buckets over scanline is that buckets only need to load into ram the info in a single bucket allowing you to render larger/more complex scenes without memory problems. Also it allows the buckets to be "shared" across multiple computers. I hope this makes sense, please anyone chime in if I have any of the details incorrect.


-Shane

Edwin Braun
08-26-2005, 07:52 AM
Shane explained it pretty well.

finalRender Stage-2 in DR mode can support animation. There is no difference if you render one frame and then another one and another one .... this works just fine and everything in DR mode.

So you ask why is there a single PC license, needed after all?
The classic render farm approach to render an animation (each PC renders one frame) is the most efficient one and creates the maximum output for "big" projects. This is why you would want to choose a single PC license for each of your render farm computers. If you need to output 10.000 frames you better do it this way! And for this we need to earn some money to make the product even do more amazing things in the future :D

A DR system (multiple PC's rendering ONE image) is very effective when rendering one "big" image. As this is also the biggest market (arch/viz) it is clear that we offer this feature "cheaper". We can sell more copies into this market and so we can make it cheaper. it is unlikely that an adrchitect will need a "big" render farm for example. And still there are more architects out there (or viz people) than Hollywood studios.


I hope this clears it up a bit.

regards
edwin

Edwin Braun
08-26-2005, 07:57 AM
The part I'm still confused about is why the pricing changes dramatically depending on whether you want to use fR with Net Render for animations, or you just want to use fR to distribute the frames. I figured this out a while ago, and for an 8 CPU farm, the first option would cost roughly $2400 (as I recall) and the latter would only cost $595 after the special pricing ends. I assume there must be some advantage that would make me want to spend $2400, but I don't see what it is. Can anyone explain? Please convince me that the $2400 option would make my life much easier somehow.

Jack

As I already tried to explain in my other post. Here in simple easy words:

DR rendering is good for ONE image and maybe 6 CPU or even 10 CPUs depending on the complexity. More than 10 CPU's (external) do not make much sense and bring only a small speed gain. At least this is what network technology allows us to do.

Classic network rendering is better when you render a movie with multiple frames (maybe 1000 and more). There you would go with individual PC's rendering one frame each. This is just the fastest and most efficient method to do movies. So this is why you would pay more for additonal single network nodes.

edwin

lllab
08-26-2005, 09:45 AM
well i as architect will need a farm (have one already for c4d.)
...but i understand your pricepoint edwin.

i think it is also nice to give an discount on each additional license.
595.- for a fr license is very nice, i already preordered.

i am very looking forward for the release, we have a nice project for a big client soon, i would love to do it in FR:-)

cheers
stefan

duderender
08-26-2005, 03:02 PM
Any word on seeing some real demos or screenshots so we can see what we're preordering?

STRAT
08-30-2005, 10:10 AM
coolies! just pre-ordered 9.5 and FR2! caught our company accountant in a good mood :thumbsup:


(lol, 1 day before the special offer on FR2 runs out too :eek: )

Chrissyboy
08-30-2005, 03:03 PM
Lol, accountants in good moods are pretty rare around here :argh:

Just placed my order too - for once I think it's actually quite a good thing that the Mac version is going to be later than the windows version - I can safely pre-order at the discount price and then wait for the reviews/samples start to pile up before being fully committed. Nice way to avoid any nasty surprises... not that I'm expecting any from cebas of course ;-)

Cheers - Chris

coolies! just pre-ordered 9.5 and FR2! caught our company accountant in a good mood :thumbsup:
(lol, 1 day before the special offer on FR2 runs out too :eek: )

STRAT
08-30-2005, 03:31 PM
nasty surprises? i certainly hope not

you see, i've persuaded my boss and pre-ordered on the word and enthusiasm of you lot here:)

but if everything turns tits up, and FR2 doesn't solve my problems, and my boss is most unhappy, and fires me, and i have no reputation for a new job, and my lack of income gets my house re-possesed, and my girlfriend walks out on me in shame, and even my dog doesn't like me any more.... then i'll blame it all on you lot! cheers guys :sad:

but hey, that wont happen :thumbsup: (will it? :eek: )

JamesMK
08-30-2005, 03:45 PM
(will it? :eek: )
Time will tell :D

Nah, as far as I've been testing FR, and watched others test it, I can only conclude that in terms of architectural GI, there is probably no other renderer on the planet that's better suited than FR.

You will most likely find it has some quirks of course, as everything else, but certainly do the job with honours.



.

STRAT
08-30-2005, 03:48 PM
cool, at least my dog will still love me then :thumbsup: um, oh yeah, and the missus wont go.


can you confirm or not whether the gi animation slowdown doesn't happen in FR2 then? (i'm hoping not as it's a different render engine)

JamesMK
08-30-2005, 03:56 PM
can you confirm or not whether the gi animation slowdown doesn't happen in FR2 then? (i'm hoping not as it's a different render engine)
I haven't exactly rendered the same type of animations that you probably would, but the things I have tried did not demonstrate any kind of slowdown at all.



.

Thalaxis
08-30-2005, 04:26 PM
cool, at least my dog will still love me then :thumbsup: um, oh yeah, and the missus wont go.


Make sure you hire a scapegoat ahead of time, just in case ;)

AdamT
08-30-2005, 05:14 PM
I just placed my order too. Being my own boss I guess I'll have to fire myself if it doesn't turn out right. :)

So I guess it's time to start then.... Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet?

Chrissyboy
08-30-2005, 05:21 PM
I just placed my order too. Being my own boss I guess I'll have to fire myself if it doesn't turn out right. :)

So I guess it's time to start then.... Is it here yet?...

Well... ... ... the cebas page has this to say

This product will be in stock on Friday 30 September, 2005.

Bit of a wait then :argh:

But the statement could also mean that it will be in stock on Thursday 29, Wednesday 28, Tuesday 27, etc etc - extrapolate back far enough and it will be released tomorrow! :applause:

LucentDreams
08-30-2005, 06:21 PM
the estimation on when it would be available that we got in our email doesn't match that at all, damn sorry to see that as we were planning on using it on our current production. :(

oh and I was lucky it was the boss who wanted it not me so I won't be to blame :)

talos72
08-30-2005, 07:00 PM
I was checking out Cebas site. Does anyone know if Final Shaders are included in FR2 for C4D? There are some handy shaders.

Here is a link to Final Shaders:http://www.finalrender.com/products/products.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&PID=45

AdamT
08-30-2005, 07:21 PM
the estimation on when it would be available that we got in our email doesn't match that at all, damn sorry to see that as we were planning on using it on our current production. :(

oh and I was lucky it was the boss who wanted it not me so I won't be to blame :)
Ugh, that's not very encouraging. I hope it's not another fR-0>fR-1 fiasco.

Chrissyboy
08-30-2005, 07:25 PM
the estimation on when it would be available that we got in our email doesn't match that at all...

The offending link is here (http://shop.cebasserver.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=102&osCsid=091e055b1a22377a18f96509989dd092), look in red down at the bottom of the page.

tcobb
08-30-2005, 07:45 PM
Yeah... At some point it got pushed back about a month.
I don't know if any other Mac people preordered, but I was told that they hope to release the Mac version about a month after the PC version.

ooo
08-30-2005, 08:57 PM
So tomorrow is the last chance for the preorderprice? Is FR specifically aimed at architects, or is it as broad usable as AR? I read so many great features. What will be the main benefits over the new AR? Is it the shadertree, or the bucket rendering or the studio exchange possibilities? Or will the quality of the renders really outpace AR? Hmm, just wondering if AR will not be a sufficient improvement for me at the moment. I am my own boss, so I can decide what to buy, but too much toys is never good...

odo

Shane W
08-30-2005, 08:59 PM
cool, at least my dog will still love me then :thumbsup: um, oh yeah, and the missus wont go.


can you confirm or not whether the gi animation slowdown doesn't happen in FR2 then? (i'm hoping not as it's a different render engine)

FinalRender running under 3dsmax didn't have any kind of slow down problems. I ran 3000+ frames in one shot just fine using hyper GI. I guess from what Edwin has said, the older hyper GI has been replaced with an even better solution. Can't wait for my copy.

-Shane

Ernest Burden
08-30-2005, 09:16 PM
Well I just ordered mine. Too bad we won't get it until the end of September. But I'm told I'll wait until October for Maxwell 1.0 (and I don't believe them for one second).

So we wait.

moka.studio
08-30-2005, 09:23 PM
So tomorrow is the last chance for the preorderprice? Is FR specifically aimed at architects, or is it as broad usable as AR? I read so many great features. What will be the main benefits over the new AR? Is it the shadertree, or the bucket rendering or the studio exchange possibilities? Or will the quality of the renders really outpace AR? Hmm, just wondering if AR will not be a sufficient improvement for me at the moment. I am my own boss, so I can decide what to buy, but too much toys is never good...

odo

It is not aimed specifically at Arch Viz ( though bery good for it), but rather at anyone needing a High End render solution, with for exemple precise control over the GI etc etc...
All the things you mention are really strong points. I think the bucker rendering is quite important, for exemple as it allows for distriubed rendering of single frames... the shader Tree is also a powerfull feature...
I am waiting to see AR 9.5 for myself, but I think it will also bring in some nice features. To me both are complementary ( AR 9.5 and FR).

guypapyrus
08-30-2005, 11:51 PM
So tomorrow is the last chance for the preorderprice?

Hmm, I've been on the fence about getting fR2, but I went on the site and it seems the pre-order price is already gone. Go to the product page in the shop:

http://shop.cebasserver.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=102

and the price of $495 no longer appears. Putting a copy in my shopping cart shows a price of $695, whereas I'm pretty sure it showed the pre-order price last time I checked.

Did I miss out?

dann_stubbs
08-31-2005, 12:13 AM
Hmm, I've been on the fence about getting fR2, but I went on the site and it seems the pre-order price is already gone. Go to the product page in the shop:

http://shop.cebasserver.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=102

and the price of $495 no longer appears. Putting a copy in my shopping cart shows a price of $695, whereas I'm pretty sure it showed the pre-order price last time I checked.

Did I miss out?

it appears so. remember they are in the UK/germany so it is past midnight over there now already august 31. but yeah it really should go until midnight august 31 if it says the end of august...

maybe email them i guess... but i guess that may be the punishment for waiting so long - after all edwin said that the order could be canceled at anytime up to shipment - just had to be pre-ordered but no actual charge is made.

dann

lightblitter22
08-31-2005, 12:20 AM
Of course that pre-order deal was built to expire just before the Sept 1 ship date. Now that's shifted to 30 Sept. Might as well extend it.

I hope this doesn't turn into another "Where is the Maxwell update?" bonanza. :)

dann_stubbs
08-31-2005, 12:40 AM
Of course that pre-order deal was built to expire just before the Sept 1 ship date. Now that's shifted to 30 Sept. Might as well extend it.

I hope this doesn't turn into another "Where is the Maxwell update?" bonanza. :)

there was a thread where i pointed out the discrepancy in the info page and the order page - of course i cant' find it anywhere now... but edwin replied and apologized for the error and that is when the dates syncronized to sept 30. yeah i know, why couldn't they syncronize both to sept 1 instead : )

i'm just wondering now how long it will be past that for the osx version - i hope not too long...

dann

Ernest Burden
08-31-2005, 12:50 AM
Hmm, I've been on the fence about getting fR2, but I went on the site and it seems the pre-order price is already gone. ...the price of $495 no longer appears. Putting a copy in my shopping cart shows a price of $695

I did this earlier today (about 4 hours ago) and it said $695 up to the point where I went to 'checkout' and then it had that number crossed out and the $495 price as what I was paying.

Plus $15 shipping, which is odd since I don't see why I would need a physical disc...especially since it'll need a patch within a week of release anyway.

dann_stubbs
08-31-2005, 12:51 AM
I did this earlier today (about 4 hours ago) and it said $695 up to the point where I went to 'checkout' and then it had that number crossed out and the $495 price as what I was paying.

Plus $15 shipping, which is odd since I don't see why I would need a physical disc...especially since it'll need a patch within a week of release anyway.

you know i can't find my post where i pointed out the mismatched dates... but in looking i notice that a couple of my posts were deleted from the new C4D lighting and rendering forum... very strange...

dann

dann_stubbs
08-31-2005, 01:06 AM
you know i can't find my post where i pointed out the mismatched dates... but in looking i notice that a couple of my posts were deleted from the new C4D lighting and rendering forum... very strange...


phew - on page 2 here

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=270485&page=2&pp=15

i thought i was going crazy and never wrote this (even though i remember edwins reply - thinking i imagined the whole thing)

so it was brought up and just seems an oversight - maybe the aug 30 date was sort of a mistake too since the "end" of august is the 31st. but it's their rules - should'a bout early!

dann

guypapyrus
08-31-2005, 01:29 AM
I did this earlier today (about 4 hours ago) and it said $695 up to the point where I went to 'checkout' and then it had that number crossed out and the $495 price as what I was paying.

Plus $15 shipping, which is odd since I don't see why I would need a physical disc...especially since it'll need a patch within a week of release anyway.

Well, I just went through the motions of ordering, and no price change, all the way to the confimation page.

It's just as well: I don't need fR2 at this stage, as I'm sure AR2.5 will more than suffice for my purposes. I was interested mainly in the shader tree, but it would be an expensive toy for me at this point, even at $495. I've been spending a bit too much money lately :)

Ernest Burden
08-31-2005, 01:55 AM
Well, I just went through the motions of ordering, and no price change, all the way to the confimation page.

Wow, I must have just beaten the buzzer without realizing it. I was thinking tomorrow was the last chance. Anyway, we'll see what I end being charged in the end...all I have now is this email:

Date Ordered: Tuesday 30 August, 2005

Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x finalRender Stage-2 for CINEMA 4D () = $495.00
Operating System Windows
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $495.00
Table Rate (Best Way): $15.00
Total: $510.00

AdamT
08-31-2005, 04:42 AM
I guess I must have *really* just beaten the buzzer, because I ordered at $495 this morning!

STRAT
08-31-2005, 07:11 AM
well there's no excuse for complaining guys as it's been on special offer for a couple of months now :)

Edwin Braun
08-31-2005, 07:38 AM
I did this earlier today (about 4 hours ago) and it said $695 up to the point where I went to 'checkout' and then it had that number crossed out and the $495 price as what I was paying.

Plus $15 shipping, which is odd since I don't see why I would need a physical disc...especially since it'll need a patch within a week of release anyway.

Hey don't panik! It is our shop system that fooled us! It does EXCLUDE the last date! So instead of having it set to 1st of September we had it set to 31st of August.
Sorry for any heart attacks you might have had! It is fixed now.

edwin

lllab
08-31-2005, 07:45 AM
Hi Edwin, is shipdate friday sept. 30 correct, as stated above, or could it be earlier?

cheers
stefan

Napola
08-31-2005, 10:45 AM
Hello I've left everything to literally the last minute. I have jumped on the Cebus site to make an order and it 8.40pm Melbourne Australia time 31st August and pricing has jumped to US$ 695. Shouldn't I be legible for the $200 discount?. It's technically August.

I hope youre a wake Edwin to help me.

Thanks

Noel

lllab
08-31-2005, 12:02 PM
read edwins post above, yes its is still august...

stefan

ooo
08-31-2005, 12:46 PM
Hello I've left everything to literally the last minute. I have jumped on the Cebus site to make an order and it 8.40pm Melbourne Australia time 31st August and pricing has jumped to US$ 695. Shouldn't I be legible for the $200 discount?. It's technically August.

I hope youre a wake Edwin to help me.

Thanks

Noel

I ordered also just a couple of hours ago. It seems you have to pay 695,- but when you get the confirmation mail, there is a link for your order status and there is the correct amount 495,-
Phew...

odo

mindful108
08-31-2005, 09:38 PM
Hi Edwin,

It is still August 31st here and I am in the same boat as several other folks who have waited till the last minute. I wish to preorder finalRender 2 but the price is back up to $695. Any chance to get this $495 offer tonight?

I know I'm a slacker...
Be kind guys... :cool:

duderender
08-31-2005, 10:27 PM
Hi Edwin,

It is still August 31st here and I am in the same boat as several other folks who have waited till the last minute. I wish to preorder finalRender 2 but the price is back up to $695. Any chance to get this $495 offer tonight?

I know I'm a slacker...
Be kind guys... :cool:

If you preorder, you will get a notification the shop is in error. However, you can email the shop for your preorder.

flingster
08-31-2005, 10:33 PM
shows as 495 on site, but order process charges 695....:sad:

duderender
08-31-2005, 10:38 PM
shows as 495 on site, but order process charges 695....:sad:

Yep, but you'll get a weird looking german subject email that explains in english that the shop is in error and the charge will be corrected when they ship.

mindful108
08-31-2005, 11:42 PM
Yep, but you'll get a weird looking german subject email that explains in english that the shop is in error and the charge will be corrected when they ship.

I went ahead and pre-ordered! But..
...I got an email confirming the $710 price. :cry:

I haven't gotten the weird looking german subject email yet. I suppose I can always just cancel the order if it doesn't get corrected. The order shows that it was placed on August 31st, and so I expect that Cebas will honor it.

I waited till the last minute since I just bought the C4D XL bundle and wasn't sure about spending more, but finalRender just looks too sweet! And $200 is $200...

osxman
09-01-2005, 05:33 AM
Seems like we are quite a few slackers here!
And I am one of them – ordered yesterday through a reseller. No problems with the pre-order price :).

So now I guess we'll just have to wait...

...And then when the windows-version ships I'll have to wait some more for the Mac-version :argh:.

mindful108
09-01-2005, 11:48 AM
Woohoo!

Got the wierd email! $495!!!


Now to wait for the OSX version...

flingster
09-01-2005, 08:06 PM
got a weird email..lol..
thanks also to edwin for his help.:thumbsup:


edit: not forgetting the dude for the email tip...cheers.

duderender
09-28-2005, 12:51 AM
Time for a bump, its days now before Sept. 30 and there has been barely a squeak from cebas on delivery of the product.

dann_stubbs
09-28-2005, 12:54 AM
Time for a bump, its days now before Sept. 30 and there has been barely a squeak from cebas on delivery of the product.

http://www.finalrender.com/news/read.php?UD=10-7888-35-788&NID=110

i noticed this new addition to their web site today...

dann

duderender
09-28-2005, 01:08 AM
Yeah I saw that... but it doesn't tell me if Sept 30 is slipping...............

;)

Ernest Burden
09-28-2005, 01:33 AM
i noticed this new addition to their web site today...

New and exciting ways to seperate us from our money.

Except, of course, the main product. I figure they are working as hard as they can, since the day they release this thing they get a big fat check from all of us who pre-ordered. NextLimit already got the cash. These guys are waiting for release to collect.

LucentDreams
09-28-2005, 03:12 AM
wow 4 hours of consulting and custom coding. VEry cool ofefer you dont' see elsewhere, but 2 hours won't likely guarantee a non buggy tool, I mean most programmers cna get something up and running in a few hours, but it takes days to refine most things to a simple clean and stable tool.


wsh there was something aobut the deadline though.

Edwin Braun
09-28-2005, 09:36 AM
New and exciting ways to seperate us from our money.

Except, of course, the main product. I figure they are working as hard as they can, since the day they release this thing they get a big fat check from all of us who pre-ordered. NextLimit already got the cash. These guys are waiting for release to collect.

Yes, indeed we are working hard to get the thing ready. As you can see we are preparing many things besides programming all this cool stuff :D

cebas USA Inc. is especially important for our users from all around the Americas, we want to make sure that when we start to ship this product, evrythig will be in place to offer the best possible support and maybe consulting if needed. The "installment" of cebas USA Inc. was a rush for us and a long awaited step to finally set a foot into the US market to give the security and confidence that a production studio needs to have from a software developer.

We will send out a newsletter soon with more details about the progress we are having and how everythig will be handled when we finally ship.
As a short information: We are preparing several things now to handle the delivery of the software in a useful and good manner. As we explained in our first newsletter, the shop system was not prepared for a pre-order software without a download, so the shop system added a package and transport fee which will not apply. Also some of you have ordered the last day and also this pricing was accidently false.
All this and more will be solved! So we are not sleeping we have a lot of work to do :D
Another important thing will be the "customer-support" system that will allow you to get free Service Packs for finalRender, when they are available. Also this has to be solved somehow on our side as our system was not build to handle pre-orders....

I'll suggest that you register with our newsletter now if you did not already do this! We will give you more information in our upcoming newsletter!

Ahh - right you want the current state of the sofwtare? :D
We have great progress and we are finally in a phase where we can see the end of the tunnel! We will miss for sure the 1st of October date however I do not expect any big delays.
Back to work!

edwin

lllab
09-28-2005, 10:19 AM
sounds good overall,

i just hope also "normal users" will get the service updates and we just have to pay for big updates, with all software i know you get the "inbeteen" updates free.

also i am a bit nervous to hear that the training stuff is only for the special user?

could you explain this "custumer-support" a bit more please?

cheers
stefan

AdamT
09-28-2005, 12:52 PM
Sounds like a good move with the infrastructure developments, but I can't say I'm too pleased with the missed ship date. I'd have thought this would be a major priority after the problems delivering Stage 1. So the race is on to see who can ship the first third-party renderer for Cinema: Cebas or Next Limit. NL claims to be on target for late October, but they seem to be a little, erm, truth challenged.

lllab
09-28-2005, 01:01 PM
as far as i was told it really is not much delay- 2 weeks maybe, not more,

as i said, i am much more happy it takes 2 weeks longer and is rock solid. i am very sure cebas will deliver the first 3rd party renderer...

cheers,
stefan

AdamT
09-28-2005, 01:10 PM
We'll see.

STRAT
09-28-2005, 01:18 PM
as i said, i am much more happy it takes 2 weeks longer and is rock solid.

cheers,
stefan

i absolutely agree. cant wait to try the architectural camera out!

lllab
09-28-2005, 01:21 PM
"architectural camera"

oh yes:-)

st.

Continuumx
09-28-2005, 03:05 PM
as far as i was told it really is not much delay- 2 weeks maybe, not more,

as i said, i am much more happy it takes 2 weeks longer and is rock solid. i am very sure cebas will deliver the first 3rd party renderer...

cheers,
stefan

Next Limit has delivered the first 3rd party render engine for C4D- it may not be final release, but it is definitely a usuable release.

I am very interested in FR2. I did not pre-order, but I would be very pleased to see more of what this engine is capable of. I will be perfectly blunt in my assessment so far. With the improvements of AR2.5, I do not see a compelling reason at this moment other than speed, node editor (which I most likely would not use) for materials, some special camera modes, and possiblly a good DOF effect (not needed as I use post for DOF processing). Apart from image quality and photorealism, I do not see an advantage here over AR2.5.

This is not to be message to start an argument, I just want some really good comparison as to why FR2 is a product to purchase for use in conjunction with AR2.5, or on its own. So far there has not been much except for some benchmarks, and a handful of renderings which in my humble opinion do not do much for marketing except say that this engine is capable of comparable results to AR2.5.

I hope I phrased this correctly, I really just want more information, tests, and such to see how this might fit into my toolset.

STRAT
09-28-2005, 03:11 PM
you are correct, image quality will probably remain the same.

for me there were 2 massive diciding factors -

1) the reported speed increases and 2) the lack of render slow downs in rendering animations that cripple the AR.

Continuumx
09-28-2005, 03:14 PM
you are correct, image quality will probably remain the same.

for me there were 2 massive diciding factors -

1) the reported speed increases and 2) the lack of render slow downs in rendering animations that cripple the AR.



Now this is the kind of information I am after. No. 2 in particular. Now that is a good point that I was not aware of. Thanks Strat.

STRAT
09-28-2005, 03:17 PM
well i dont know this for sure, but it's the assumption i've gotten from what i've read up about it, and the round-about answers the beta testers give me ;)

another point too which will make my day - rendering a single image over several pc's without the hastle of setting up the AR needs to do it.

talos72
09-28-2005, 03:38 PM
I don't know...I think a node based material system is somewhat of a big deal. It's almost like having a whole new module for C4D that happens to be a part of a render package.

I don't mind the delay in the release either as long as the product runs smoothly with 9.5...I hope.

However, what is this thing about "training in FR for special customers"? Can someone please elaborate on who are the chosen customers?

STRAT
09-28-2005, 03:51 PM
and just out of interest, incase you haven't heard, Cebas have set up an FR2 forums on their site. and specifically a FR2 for C4D forum -

http://www.cebas.com/forums/cebas/viewforum.php?f=21

something that'll hopefully answer all our woes and concerns

lllab
09-28-2005, 03:57 PM
well if the image quality is like fr1 sp2 in max it is a little better than ar2 when using GI.
additional is has DR shader tree, more shader nodes etc, special cameras....and it is faster, really faster when using GI.

regarding first release: well i meant release software not beta software. maxwell has no working clipmaps( ineed that all the time for archviz) its missing a lot of material options yet, it crashed randomly, and it has not a workflow( the c4d plug) i cannot imagine someone doing real work( normally under time pressure). at least this is no fun or fluent workflow.

is see maxwell having a really nice imagequality and i am sure it will be a nice addition in my renderarsenal in some month, but to be honest it isnt there yet in my opinion.

and that is what i hope will not happen with fr2. i hope this is a real 1.0 release not a 0.9x.

cheers
stefan

andronikos916
09-28-2005, 04:51 PM
...time will tell... crazy war is going on between render engines!

:scream:
Andronikos

lllab
09-28-2005, 05:15 PM
yes, i am happy to already own them all:-)

time will tell which is first....

stefan

AdamT
09-28-2005, 05:24 PM
I do not see a compelling reason at this moment other than speed, node editor (which I most likely would not use) for materials, some special camera modes, and possiblly a good DOF effect (not needed as I use post for DOF processing).
To me those items you mentioned are worth the price of admission, plus bucket rendering and 3d motion blur add a lot of value. I don't expect maximum image quality to exceed AR2.5, but if you can achieve better quality in much less time it translates to better actual image quality under pressure of a deadline.

mindful108
09-28-2005, 05:27 PM
Hey Edwin,

Thanks for joining in on the discussions. It says a lot about cebas.

Any word on the development timeline for the OS X version and can we expect full parity with the Windows flavor?

Can't wait...:bounce:

vesalus
09-28-2005, 08:33 PM
well, i'd like to be shown interior images rendered in less than 8hours (for print) that are gi splotchess free (and without flickering if animated ) and most of all that dont need a rocket science engine or diploma to be used...

dont know yet... :)

Ernest Burden
09-28-2005, 10:51 PM
I don't expect maximum image quality to exceed AR2.5, but if you can achieve better quality in much less time it translates to better actual image quality under pressure of a deadline.

Exactly.

And for the record, I do mind waiting longer for FR2 and Maxwell1. However, I have no choice.

DynamicRealism
09-28-2005, 11:06 PM
In regards to interior renders, with my testing so far, there is NO splotches or any artifacts as you may reference from ar so long as you have a taste for the engine and how it works. It is beautifully crafted in such a manner where you you complex simplicity. Easy to setup, and tremendously manipulation-proned at the same time. And in light of 8 hours for rendering, heh, in my humble opinion, only if your on a p3 500 mhz =P

vesalus
09-29-2005, 12:49 AM
yes i know i have seen some fr galleries, and read some threads, i was mentionning this because i previously read someone stating that "it could be done with AR with more gi sample" kinda word :)

i know fr rocks and is fast....

mindful108
09-29-2005, 03:36 AM
well, i'd like to be shown interior images rendered in less than 8hours (for print) that are gi splotchess free (and without flickering if animated ) and most of all that dont need a rocket science engine or diploma to be used...

I agree. It would be great to have a powerful solution that is easy to set up, easy to understand yet flexible and deep enough to be able to get exactly the look we want without others saying, "Oh, that's obviously rendered with _____".

I guess that's the Holy Grail and it looks like that's what FR2 is about to deliver.:love:
And I'd say that AR is well on it's way too!


dont know yet... :)
Me either...

Edwin Braun
09-29-2005, 08:38 AM
Hey Edwin,

Thanks for joining in on the discussions. It says a lot about cebas.

Any word on the development timeline for the OS X version and can we expect full parity with the Windows flavor?

Can't wait...:bounce:

As i said before the OSX version will come after the windows version. However, as soon as we have both running there should be no delay at all for future builds or Service Packs.
edwin

STRAT
09-29-2005, 08:40 AM
i dont think the quality will be any better or worse, just different. which will probably proove to be a novelty for most until we get used to it.

dann_stubbs
10-03-2005, 05:39 PM
As i said before the OSX version will come after the windows version. However, as soon as we have both running there should be no delay at all for future builds or Service Packs.
edwin


now that we're into "unknown" timeframe since the original ship date is past...

is there an udated but semi-accurate ship date to post for pre-purchasers. also is there any update to the time frame of the osx version too?

just looking for something to keep on my calendar as to expect it. i'd certainly hope not to see a MW situation ; )

if i purchased OSX version - will i still get the software when the PC version ships - just minus the OSX plugin? cause i can still use it on my PC's and with my Maya seat.

thanks in advance, looking forward to seeing this ship.

dann

AdamT
10-03-2005, 07:51 PM
now that we're into "unknown" timeframe since the original ship date is past...

is there an udated but semi-accurate ship date to post for pre-purchasers.
I second the request; what's the story?

lllab
10-03-2005, 08:05 PM
yes would be interesting- from what i was told it was 2 weeks delay, is that true?

cheers
stefan

Ernest Burden
10-03-2005, 08:30 PM
from what i was told it was 2 weeks delay, is that true?


But which two weeks?

lllab
10-03-2005, 08:37 PM
from 1 of october, so it should be 14th oct. but as i said i was told that from someone else, so no guaranree at all. maybe edwin can clear this up?

cheers
stefan

nycL45
10-03-2005, 11:48 PM
Hey guys ....and ladies(?), since half of C4D users are Mac, and since your turning up the heat on Cebas to give a ship date, how about asking for both PC and Mac delivery dates? It should go something like this: if the ship date for fR2 PC is betw 1 Oct and 14 Oct, does that mean Mac's ship date is 1 Nov and 14 Nov (please say it isn't so)? What say, MrBraun? :D

LucentDreams
10-04-2005, 02:05 AM
This is why maxon typically avoids pre announcing things.

My guess would be that interface and documentation atre the main thigns slowing it down, thats typically the case at the point, but perhaps there are biger problems areas not working yet.

MJV
10-04-2005, 02:23 AM
There are two things to be learned from a pre announcement date. The date the company wishes it would be ready, and the date by which it won't be ready.

duderender
10-04-2005, 02:51 AM
Come on folks, most of us know cebas' track record with delivery dates and I don't know they've met one.

BUT! ! ! ! ! What kickass product they always deliver.... true dat!

Edwin Braun
10-04-2005, 09:30 AM
Hey! You are right!
We missed this exact date but we are near to completion!
We got a little unexpected holdup in the DR coding and as it is sometimes with Software development such things just happen at the wrong time.

Also I must admit that our deadlines did not turn out to be as exact as we all wished. I'm sorry for that and I can only say we are working hard on that and our main idea is to sell our stuff and get it ready as fast as possible! In the end we all want a stable and good product.

regards
edwin (back to work)

lllab
10-04-2005, 10:42 AM
"In the end we all want a stable and good product."

-exactly:-)

cheers
stefan

AdamT
10-04-2005, 01:21 PM
No question we want a good and stable product, but does "near completion" mean days, weeks, or....?

Ernest Burden
10-04-2005, 01:44 PM
"In the end we all want a stable and good product."
-exactly:-)

Its pretty sad for the industry that having that would be a bonus.

stable
good product
on time

pick any two

flingster
10-04-2005, 09:27 PM
"In the end we all want a stable and good product."

-exactly:-)

cheers
stefan

accept no substitutes when it comes to stable...NON...i can wait.

flingster top tip for customer service: keep to a date when set...if you're going to over run...inform the customer that you'll do so..don't wait till that date expires then fight bush fires. heh heh.. if you can't give a date say you can't give an accurate date not avoid answering... final top tip..if you do give a date stick to it and don't make the same mistake twice. of course this is only a flingster top tip and in no way should be taken as legal advice with which to run a companies customer support by ;-/

nycL45
10-05-2005, 01:33 AM
accept no substitutes when it comes to stable...NON...i can wait.

flingster top tip for customer service: keep to a date when set...if you're going to over run...inform the customer that you'll do so..don't wait till that date expires then fight bush fires. heh heh.. if you can't give a date say you can't give an accurate date not avoid answering... final top tip..if you do give a date stick to it and don't make the same mistake twice. of course this is only a flingster top tip and in no way should be taken as legal advice with which to run a companies customer support by ;-/

Can't help myself, I have to add: And, if you miss your deadline, and subsequent deadlines, do not just shrug your shoulders and offer silence or an "oh well". :scream:

Thalaxis
10-05-2005, 02:14 AM
Can't help myself, I have to add: And, if you miss your deadline, and subsequent deadlines, do not just shrug your shoulders and offer silence or an "oh well". :scream:

Quite right... usually it's clear before you hit your deadline whether or not you're going to make it, and most of the customers tend to respond favorably, however impatiently, when you tell them before the deadline that you're going to miss it.

Of course, Edwin's been doing a pretty good job of keeping us apprised of the situation, so we're just preaching to the choir here, I think. :)

nycL45
10-05-2005, 11:11 AM
Of course, Edwin's been doing a pretty good job of keeping us apprised of the situation, so we're just preaching to the choir here, I think. :)

Edwin was nudged a bit on 27 Sept. (here, #98) and waited to the last of his five paragraph post (here, #101) to address the 30 Sept. ship date status. Also, in other recent threads, there have been unflattering posts about missed earlier fR ship dates. And then we have M~R...??? The unfortunate point, we are not talking modeling or rendering; it is about business agreements, expectations, etc. and accountability. Turning up the heat is not wrong and not fun, IMHO. My last tip: Cebas, make it quick and throw in some "enough to bring the smile back" surprises and we all will put this behind us. :D

Thalaxis
10-05-2005, 11:53 AM
Edwin was nudged a bit on 27 Sept. (here, #98) and waited to the last of his five paragraph post (here, #101) to address the 30 Sept. ship date status. Also, in other recent threads, there have been unflattering posts about missed earlier fR ship dates. And then we have M~R...??? The unfortunate point, we are not talking modeling or rendering; it is about business agreements, expectations, etc. and accountability.

He didn't try to tell us that it was on track, and that was also before the pre-announced ship date.

It is hard to ignore the fact that Cebas has had some... impressive delays in other fR shipments, but hopefully the delays on fR2 won't be nearly as impressive :)

But let's be honest here, Cebas didn't make a business agreement with any of us to ship fR2 before the end of September, the business agreement was to ship the product at the specified price (which varied depending on whether or not you got in on the pre-order special), so they aren't violating anything like that.

You're completely right about expectations management though -- and Maxwell is a good example of why you're right, because the Maxwell folks have not been doing as good a job of letting people know about delays as Edwin has.


Turning up the heat is not wrong and not fun, IMHO.


Agreed. The whole point behind keeping the customers apprised of delays is to make turning up the heat unnecessary.


My last tip: Cebas, make it quick and throw in some "enough to bring the smile back" surprises and we all will put this behind us. :D


Always a good tip ;)

lllab
10-05-2005, 11:55 AM
well i guess they are working hard, and it is in their interest to finish a.s.a.p because cebas charge you when they ship, not before.
so until they are finished they dont get any money!

so what they do now is working to make a good product, no need for surprized. programming to is a kind of creativ-complex job, no fixed dates are possible.

i rather see a company trying to make the product solid than a company releasing a half finished work, just to get their money earlier.

my 2 cent
stefan

AdamT
10-05-2005, 01:37 PM
I'm sure they're doing their utmost to get out a solid release ASAP. I just wish they would provide an updated estimate of the ship date.

lllab
10-05-2005, 02:06 PM
"I just wish they would provide an updated estimate of the ship date."

yes that would be nice...

cheers
stefan

Thalaxis
10-05-2005, 02:08 PM
Let's hope Edwin's still reading this thread during his free time, assuming he has any ;)

flingster
10-05-2005, 03:37 PM
Of course, Edwin's been doing a pretty good job of keeping us apprised of the situation, so we're just preaching to the choir here, I think. :)

here here.... doing a fine job... wasn't a cheap crack at edwin really just more of an observation of recent years and slipped release dates from various software companies which can be annoying and often avoided just by keeping customers informed.:thumbsup:
no company deliberately misses target dates its how they deal with it when it goes wrong that shows the men from the boys so to speak...as always imo.

Thalaxis
10-05-2005, 04:47 PM
here here.... doing a fine job... wasn't a cheap crack at edwin really just more of an observation of recent years and slipped release dates from various software companies which can be annoying and often avoided just by keeping customers informed.:thumbsup:


It is good to see that Edwin is taking time to avoid repeating some of those previous mistakes of communication.


no company deliberately misses target dates its how they deal with it when it goes wrong that shows the men from the boys so to speak...as always imo.

That's true. From what I've seen the customers are generally pretty understanding when you're up front with them and you don't wait until you miss your date to tell them something went wrong.

Edwin Braun
10-05-2005, 06:49 PM
Yes I'm reading! :D

I can only repeat myself we are nearly there, we just had this "unexpected holdup" in the DR code. We could not foresee this many holdups.

I know this is frustrating for you and I can tell you it is also frustrating for us! But we wanted really full support of the renderman interface specifications right form the start. I know that not many of you will understand and even see the big benefit of it but believe me staying conform to the renderman specifications even in DR will open up some amazing new possibilities!
Saying that does not help much, I know, you want it now and you do not care why we messed it up, but it will be a good thing for sure to have this working as it was initially planned.

The holdup was some unexpected pitfall in the RISpec we could not foresee so easily with DR rendering.

thanks for the friendly comments and also thanks to the strong words to remind us on improving the timing announcements.

I hope to have more information next week. Feel free to contact me if you have some other concerns.

edwin

Thalaxis
10-05-2005, 07:26 PM
Yes I'm reading! :D


Good to know :)


I can only repeat myself we are nearly there, we just had this "unexpected holdup" in the DR code. We could not foresee this many holdups.


It happens. It doesn't sound like anyone's put out about that. :)


I know this is frustrating for you and I can tell you it is also frustrating for us! But we wanted really full support of the renderman interface specifications right form the start. I know that not many of you will understand and even see the big benefit of it but believe me staying conform to the renderman specifications even in DR will open up some amazing new possibilities!


Intriguing... :)


The holdup was some unexpected pitfall in the RISpec we could not foresee so easily with DR rendering.


I was curious, I'll admit :)


I hope to have more information next week. Feel free to contact me if you have some other concerns.


I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one looking forward to it :)

Just for fun, we ought to start taking bets on whether you guys will ship before Maxwell, or the other way around. It would help pass the time while the rest of the community is busy banging their heads on the Alias/AutoDesk dealie. :D

andronikos916
10-05-2005, 07:56 PM
http://www.maxwellrender.com/whitepaper/index.htm

...just out at the corner!

cy,
Andronikos

AdamT
10-05-2005, 08:15 PM
Ha, and y'all scoffed when I said it was a race to see who would ship the first third-party render engine for Cinema. :) I'd bet on NL to ship first, but I doubt the Cinema plugin will be production ready at or near the ship date.

duderender
10-05-2005, 10:51 PM
I'm excited about both. I wish in a way cebas had release FR2 much like NL did with Maxwell as I enjoyed toying with Maxwell.

Seeing those new specs on Maxwell 1.0 is gratifying for sure. I can't wait to try it out!

However, I still feel both FR2 and MW serve entirely different purposes and I would use each for different rendering styles.

nycL45
10-06-2005, 12:36 AM
What a relief! Positive news that spans to the other side of deadlines! M~R in October, the C4D M~R plugin in October/November and the Mac fR2 in November. I will not know or care if the snow is pit deep because with all that is coming out will have me pit deep in.... :applause: :love: :sad: :banghead: :cry: :scream: :lightbulb :) :thumbsup:

lllab
10-10-2005, 03:18 PM
" I hope to have more information next week"

any news on a possible release date yet?

cheers
stefan

edit: ok got a mail:

fixed ship date 26th of october:-)))

dann_stubbs
10-10-2005, 07:38 PM
" I hope to have more information next week"

any news on a possible release date yet?

cheers
stefan

edit: ok got a mail:

fixed ship date 26th of october:-)))


yes if any users here have purchased FR2 and not signed up for the cebas newsletter - i'd suggest they do it to get the latest information first hand.

about a month later for osx version to ship according to the newsletter. and only 9.1 to start - the 9.5 translater will be be later (and free)

dann

lllab
10-10-2005, 08:13 PM
i am not sure with the 9.1 thing, i got an answer on cenas forum that we will be able to start with 9.5 right away- so i don t know which is accuryte- the email or the forum answer from edwin...

lets see...

cheers
stefan

dann_stubbs
10-10-2005, 08:56 PM
i am not sure with the 9.1 thing, i got an answer on cenas forum that we will be able to start with 9.5 right away- so i don t know which is accuryte- the email or the forum answer from edwin...

lets see...


i intrepreted his response to you on their forum that you CAN go directly to 9.5 - the current issue is that the 9.5 bridge is not finished. basically that there is no prerequesite to have 9.1 to use FR2 is how i understood it.

maybe i am wrong, but the email today does say "*All users will get the 9.5 translator as soon as we are ready with it. *The update to 9.5 is free!"

dann

AdamT
10-10-2005, 09:09 PM
edit: ok got a mail:

fixed ship date 26th of october:-)))
Trying to sneak in a few days ahead of NL! lol

nycL45
10-11-2005, 12:03 AM
Also, the other approximately half of C4D users should note, "...the Apple Macintosh version will follow in about a month." (Cebas-news Subject: finalRender Stage-2 newsletter for CINEMA 4D)

About?

Ernest Burden
10-11-2005, 12:41 AM
Also, the other approximately half of C4D users should note, "...the Apple Macintosh version will follow in about a month."

This raises two questions--are approx. 1/2 of C4D users on Mac?

and...

Is the Mac really called the Apple Macintosh anymore? Officially, by Apple?

nycL45
10-11-2005, 01:05 AM
This raises two questions--are approx. 1/2 of C4D users on Mac?

and...

Is the Mac really called the Apple Macintosh anymore? Officially, by Apple?

What are you up to with this post, EBlll?

Q1 2005/07/20 #44 "Macintosh users are a very substantial part of the over all CINEMA userbase. It's not exactly 50/50 but very nearly." Srek. Find the quote at this thread: <forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=2479195&highlight=mac+user+50%25#post2479195>

Q2 Good question. Apple uses many names for their hardware. It's pretty loose. Shouldn't it be that way?

lllab
10-11-2005, 06:59 AM
"1/2 of C4D users on Mac"

i am truly amazed of that- interesting....
so it is quite a mac app. maybe because there are not so much good 3d apps on the mac?

cheers
stefan

Edwin Braun
10-11-2005, 01:16 PM
i intrepreted his response to you on their forum that you CAN go directly to 9.5 - the current issue is that the 9.5 bridge is not finished. basically that there is no prerequesite to have 9.1 to use FR2 is how i understood it.

maybe i am wrong, but the email today does say "*All users will get the 9.5 translator as soon as we are ready with it. *The update to 9.5 is free!"

dann

It looks like we can ship both translators with the product when we release. Because of our unwanted delay we can implement most of the new light features so that finalRender can support as many native C4D materials and lighting as possible.

edwin

Ernest Burden
10-11-2005, 01:30 PM
What are you up to with this post, EBlll?


Curious. Since the Mac (if that's really its name) represents a much smaller percentage of computer users, so I wondered if it was 50% or 'us'. I see a lot of posts here from Mac users, but not 1/2 of the people posting (or so it appears).

One of the main reasons I bought C4D in the first place was to be able to work more efficiently with a collegue who's on Mac. He got C4D and is a longtime FormZ user, so I bought both. And I'm glad I bought C4D.

Back on topic, thanks, Edwin for the updates, it really helps.

AdamT
10-11-2005, 02:23 PM
Not sure why I think so, but I had the impression that the % of Mac users was somewhere between 40-50%.

nycL45
10-11-2005, 02:31 PM
Because of our unwanted delay...
edwin

Edwin, we understand the delays are due to unforeseen issues, it happens, and appreciate your being open about it, but, will you continue updating the Mac users as to when the Mac version will be shipping? Reading "...the Apple Macintosh version will follow in about a month." in the Cebas-news can be interpreted as being open-ended. Is it possible to give a date now when you will be able to announce a definite ship date?

nycL45
10-11-2005, 02:33 PM
Not sure why I think so, but I had the impression that the % of Mac users was somewhere between 40-50%.

Srek told us it is nearly half.

Incarnadine
10-11-2005, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the confirmation on the direct to 9.5 translator. This will save me from having to wait (I have already updated my C4D to 9.5) and will only have to download once. The updates are apprciated.

Edwin Braun
10-11-2005, 06:04 PM
Edwin, we understand the delays are due to unforeseen issues, it happens, and appreciate your being open about it, but, will you continue updating the Mac users as to when the Mac version will be shipping? Reading "...the Apple Macintosh version will follow in about a month." in the Cebas-news can be interpreted as being open-ended. Is it possible to give a date now when you will be able to announce a definite ship date?

The MAC version should not be too big of a deal the only uncertanty is the networking stuff as this will be the only "independent" part were we do not "back up" on CINEMA4D. We expect it to be a month after our Windows release.

We already found some bad things in Windows networking that caused all this extreme mess in additon to our "RISpec conformity wish". As it looks like now we have to specifically program for Windows platforms when we want to use our network rendering. It is too bad that Windows does not really understand standards in networking ;( What this means for the Apple build is that the networking part has to be completely written again.
And for sure we want to have them work in a mixed environemnt.

hope this helps a bit.
edwin

nycL45
10-11-2005, 07:39 PM
Thanks Edwin for that post. Not being a programmer, I'm not sure just how serious that is but, it certainly sounds serious. Obviously, Cebas is working hard and that fR2 will be worth the wait. :thumbsup:

AdamT
10-11-2005, 08:41 PM
Yep, thanks very much for the information! Hope the late October date holds so I have a chance to play with it before my early Nov. holiday.

dann_stubbs
10-12-2005, 01:48 PM
How about a link to the cebas FR forums on the cebas.com or finalrender.com web page

i can't remember how i got the link to that in the first place and that bookmark is not on this mac so i can't even get to the forums until i get on that other computer.

it also might help other people be able to sign up and use those forums if there was an easy way to find and get to them (like a forum link on the web site)

or somebody please open my eyes to where i am missing this on the cebas.com or finalrender.com sites.

thanks

dann

nycL45
10-12-2005, 02:05 PM
This is the fR2 for C4D forum: www.cebas.com/forums/cebas/viewforum.php?f=21

Is that what you are looking for? You are right, direct links on the www.cebas.com page would help.

BTW, the way I got there was www.Cebas.com>Support>Welcome to the cebas Computer Support Page & Join the Public Cebas Forum (center page)>/www.cebas.com/forums/cebas/ (list of forums).

dann_stubbs
10-13-2005, 11:07 AM
This is the fR2 for C4D forum: www.cebas.com/forums/cebas/viewforum.php?f=21

Is that what you are looking for? You are right, direct links on the www.cebas.com page would help.

BTW, the way I got there was www.Cebas.com>Support>Welcome to the cebas Computer Support Page & Join the Public Cebas Forum (center page)>/www.cebas.com/forums/cebas/ (list of forums).

yeah thanks, i couldn't remember how i got the original link to their forums to begin with...

now i've got it bookmarked on a few different computers so if i need to check i actually can get there. here's hoping a link to the forums will make it to their web site - maybe there will be more then a few users total in the c4d forum there.

dann

dann_stubbs
10-25-2005, 12:18 PM
" I hope to have more information next week"

any news on a possible release date yet?

cheers
stefan

edit: ok got a mail:

fixed ship date 26th of october:-)))


so that is tomorrow... : )

things still on schedule?

dann

Ernest Burden
10-25-2005, 01:34 PM
things still on schedule?

The race to beat Maxwell just got at least a month easier

STRAT
10-25-2005, 01:51 PM
perhaps the mythical vray 1.5 may beat them all :eek:

Incarnadine
10-25-2005, 04:24 PM
Got my fingers crossed for tomorrow!

lllab
10-25-2005, 06:23 PM
Edwin?

i guess if it is not tomorrow it would be nice to clear that before all hope going high. if i hear nothing i count with tomorrow....

cheers
stefan

Ph0n33z
10-26-2005, 12:26 AM
EDIT: ignore this post..........should have probably not said this

Ernest Burden
10-26-2005, 01:01 AM
Are we all actually working on software that should have been out in 1992, but was 'delayed'?

og_reborn
10-26-2005, 05:13 PM
pheew!

just read this entire thread and I still have a couple things to say.

I noticed the benchmark on the cebas site, but I would really like to see a more detailed benchmark test against AR 2.5
I don't know what MLT or Path Tracing are or how they relate to the settings in AR so that doesn't mean much to me. Could we get some more specs on the machine used in this test, as well as the settings used in both renders?
I'd particularly like to see some sort of benchmark showing how long it takes to render a flicker-free GI animation. Am I just dreaming here or are these things not too much to ask?

Also, I would love to see a benchmark test with the DR method on multiple frames versus individual network licences to do one frame per machine. You say that it's more efficient to render animations with the latter method, but I'd like to see exactly how much more before I try to talk my boss into spending 5x as much money...as we only have a small number of machines anyway.

I really want to get this renderer but in order for me to justify the expense to my boss it is absolutely crucial that I can be sure that the AR render slowdown issue is non-existent (which has stung me bad twice now.) And that it will be a reliable solution to rendering flicker-free GI animations on our farm.
Thanks for reading!:beer:

dann_stubbs
10-26-2005, 05:19 PM
Also, I would love to see a benchmark test with the DR method on multiple frames versus individual network licences to do one frame per machine. You say that it's more efficient to render animations with the latter method, but I'd like to see exactly how much more before I try to talk my boss into spending 5x as much money...as we only have a small number of machines anyway.

i hope to do a few tests like this when it is released. much of that will deterimine if i purchase standalone licenses for my farm as well - or just use it as DR

i'll add it onto this thread when that time comes... (hopefully today as was mentioned - but it is already end of day in UK so i'm not so hopeful now)

dann

Ernest Burden
10-26-2005, 06:02 PM
in order for me to justify the expense to my boss it is absolutely crucial that I can be sure that the AR render slowdown issue is non-existent (which has stung me bad twice now.) And that it will be a reliable solution to rendering flicker-free GI animations on our farm.

I don't think you can do that.

og_reborn
10-26-2005, 07:25 PM
you mean you don't think I'll be able to find that out or be able to render GI animation without artifacts?

AdamT
10-26-2005, 07:36 PM
Edwin? Hellooooo!

Continuumx
10-26-2005, 07:50 PM
There seems to be a general push back from all the almost-ready-to-go-render-engines-releases. I think it is now more of a wait to let someone release their engine first while the others can work on better stability and swipe some last minutes knock out features into their engine.

I really am interested in seeing FR2.

Ernest Burden
10-26-2005, 08:38 PM
you mean you don't think I'll be able to find that out or be able to render GI animation without artifacts?

From recent posts in...this thread?...it sounds like FR has its own version of the time run-up problem, and a method to deal with it--forcing a re-calc every 15 frames or so. It was depressing.

My point was that I do not think you can tell your boss FR2 will be free of this problem. Maybe it will, but we will just have to wait and see.

And now wait some more...

xeno3d
10-26-2005, 09:33 PM
So I guess there will be no fr 2 today?

og_reborn
10-26-2005, 09:58 PM
From recent posts in...this thread?...it sounds like FR has its own version of the time run-up problem, and a method to deal with it--forcing a re-calc every 15 frames or so. It was depressing.

yeah I read that too but that's not as bad as with the AR problem, where there is no way to pre-calc the GI, thereby making a net render useless if you're not there overnight to stop and re-start it constantly.

Also, I think the AR problem goes beyond just that...as the slowdown isn't just due to the need to calculate new GI points. In my experience, the frame time gets dramatically slower from frame to frame (20 min to 1 hour to 2 hours, for instance) even if there is almost no change in the composition.
I have no idea really but I think it's something that's worse depending on how big your scene is...regardless of what your GI settings are.
It makes sense that the renderer will need to calculate new Gi per frame...and slow down a bit...but the AR problem is ridiculous.

So, if you have the GI re-calc every 15th frame or so, would that create a flicker in the scene or would it stay the same?

ahhh well....I guess time will tell.

lllab
10-26-2005, 10:14 PM
if it is similar to vray whre you also do force a precalc every 10th to 20th frame there is no flicker. it is a common method.

i hope it will eb the same in fr2, but dont know. vray at least is able to produce stunning gi animation with no flicker, so i hope fr will be too.

stefan

Ph0n33z
10-27-2005, 03:27 PM
OFFICIAL QUOTE FROM EDWIN:

"We'll send out an email tomorrow to inform our users about the next steps.

Also you will get more information about the timing and how we plan to start shipping the product.

In addition to all this release crazyness we have troubel with our server transfer that was promised ot us also to be finished some weeks ago. So we are inbetween transfering to a new server to handle the distribution and service portal we are building up right now.

So many thinsg come together as usual.

edwin"

Ernest Burden
10-27-2005, 06:36 PM
So, if you have the GI re-calc every 15th frame or so, would that create a flicker in the scene or would it stay the same?


Illab says it works for vRay, so maybe it does too for FR2. But stopping and restarting frames on a NetRender under AR does create a nasty flicker. I've tried it.

FredSpeaks
10-27-2005, 08:16 PM
Illab says it works for vRay, so maybe it does too for FR2. But stopping and restarting frames on a NetRender under AR does create a nasty flicker. I've tried it.
They way I understand it is you run an animation precalculating the GI, say calculating every nth frame. I then uses this for the GI for the whole animation. So it takes a bit longer at the begining, you calculate all the GI before doing any animation. That way there is no GI calc at rendertime, just using the already saved data. This is the way I understood it to work. Could be wrong though. Now where is that Mac release?:rolleyes:

DynamicRealism
10-27-2005, 09:13 PM
boys and girls, let me tell you that from my testing, there are NO artifacts nor flicker in ANY way shape or form. On top of that, there is absolutely NO slowdown in gi calculating, as the solutions are stored in a genious way. (can't tell ya specifics obviously). To those all saying "lets see benchmarks and how this works compared to ar2.5 etc etc", this is an ENTIRELY different renderer compared to ar2.5. You can't just jump on board and compare the two immediately. EXTREMELY different functions, capabilities, of the sort. Not to mention there is multiple ways of doing just about anything with this renderer. Questions regarding DR, it is completely linear... meaning if u have just one 3ghz machine and go at 2 minutes.. it'll render at 1 minute if not less with an additional box. i can answer a few other inquisitions to the best of my ability and of course limitations attached to cebas.

lllab
10-28-2005, 05:59 AM
well, the described method has nothing to do with stopping the renderprocess. it is just that it somehow refreshes the GI calc in steps of 15frames.

as this sounds quite similar as the way it is done in vray, i guessed it might be the same in FR too. vray people can do very nice GI animation.

of course in AR there isnt a function like this yet.

fr gi engine looks also very advanced, at least in stage1, so i guess it might be even better in stage2. but lets see when we have it in our hands...

cheers
stefan

DynamicRealism
10-28-2005, 07:35 AM
i can gauruntee you there is no 15th frame anything for this if those of you are wondering ;)

Ernest Burden
10-28-2005, 12:25 PM
i can gauruntee you there is no 15th frame anything for this if those of you are wondering ;)

So you or others have run animation sequences of complex scenes to verify that all is well with this new product? Someone reported a problem with FRst1, so it's on our minds.

AR2 and AR2.5 were beta-tested and no-one seemed to find the problem, it took our STRAT several years to get Maxon to admit there was a problem--oh, sorry "limitation".

I guess the best thing is for us to get the FR2 product so we can see for ourselves. Any idea when that will happen?

DynamicRealism
10-28-2005, 05:45 PM
as much as i want to give you that info, I have an electric leash on my neck. I have rendered out several animations involving a dominos set that rendered out fantastic.

STRAT
10-28-2005, 06:47 PM
as much as i want to give you that info, I have an electric leash on my neck. I have rendered out several animations involving a dominos set that rendered out fantastic.

sounds great, but no offense or anything but i'm going to have to wait until the product is in my lap for testing before i take a beta tester's word for it. it took the Maxon boffins enough time to listen to me, and they with all their wisdom never picked this up. it'll take allot more than some rendered dominos to convince me (great though they may be :) )

DynamicRealism
10-28-2005, 08:58 PM
by all means yes take my word only as 2 cents hah! definately wait to be amazed =D

Thalaxis
10-28-2005, 09:07 PM
by all means yes take my word only as 2 cents hah! definately wait to be amazed =D

Enough with the teasing already!

DynamicRealism
10-29-2005, 12:17 AM
2.4ghz 786megs of ram 256kb l2 cache
*Caustics test*
Total Time: 2 minutes 13 seconds
will do a refraction one in a bit. yes, thats with gi, and no, not network rendered.
almost forgot...rendered the damn image with an omni light not an area =(...shoot me sideways
http://dbxs.dynalias.org/ringmain.jpg

dann_stubbs
10-29-2005, 12:21 AM
Enough with the teasing already!

anybody else get to download the IPclamp movie from the cebas newsletter? give me a missing file error.

dann

JDP
10-29-2005, 10:57 AM
anybody else get to download the IPclamp movie from the cebas newsletter? give me a missing file error.

dann

Not working for me either.

STRAT
10-29-2005, 12:07 PM
....definately wait to be amazed =D

i really hope so :) infact, i do have a good feeling about it.

nycL45
10-29-2005, 12:11 PM
Ditto post to Edwin over at the fR2/C4D forum.

dann_stubbs
10-31-2005, 12:20 PM
Ditto post to Edwin over at the fR2/C4D forum.

speaking of - i just tried to log into the cebas forum to check for any news and it appears to be down? anybody else able to get in?

dann

FredSpeaks
10-31-2005, 12:30 PM
I logged on just fine. I had to enter my user name and password again though.

Thalaxis
10-31-2005, 12:33 PM
I just logged in successfully. Maybe you just caught it when a router was down or something.

dann_stubbs
10-31-2005, 12:43 PM
I logged on just fine. I had to enter my user name and password again though.

yeah can get it now - asking me again for login etc now too... wonder why...

dann

nycL45
10-31-2005, 12:44 PM
speaking of - i just tried to log into the cebas forum to check for any news and it appears to be down? anybody else able to get in?

dann

I cannot log in either. ??? I tried directly and via the home page. NG

STRAT
10-31-2005, 01:22 PM
hhmmm, i cant log in. keeps telling me my username or password is wrong. which it isn't. it's also reporting the forums are locked.

Thalaxis
10-31-2005, 02:05 PM
I just tried again from a different machine, no problems. I wonder if they're mucking about with their servers for some reason ;)

FredSpeaks
10-31-2005, 02:18 PM
Didn't Edwin metion something about still needing to get the servers ready for release? This may have something to do with the problems.

Thalaxis
10-31-2005, 02:25 PM
That's why I was winking :)

lllab
11-05-2005, 11:06 PM
any news?

is one and a half weeks now gone.
hope it will come soon?
edwin how does it look from todays few?

a little info would be helpful

thank
cheers
stefan

xeno3d
11-07-2005, 07:45 PM
I thought for sure I would come home from work today and have a new gem to play with...

Any new info Edwin?

jackb602
11-07-2005, 08:34 PM
Edwin or DynamicRealism, maybe you can answer this question. When using distributed bucket rendering with FR, is there any way to see the progress of a particular bucket, or do you only find out once it's finished? What about rendering complete frames over the network? This is a shortcoming of Net Render that has been discussed before, and I wonder if finalRender has more to offer in this area. Even a simple progress bar or a "25% completed" message would be a big step forward.

Thanks,
Jack

andronikos916
11-07-2005, 11:02 PM
As far as I know guys is similar "in terms of visualization" with Vray bucket rendering... meaning that you see all the buckets in your screen rendering separetly.


thanx,
Andronikos

jackb602
11-07-2005, 11:04 PM
As far as I know guys is similar "in terms of visualization" with Vray bucket rendering... meaning that you see all the buckets in your screen rendering separetly.


thanx,
Andronikos

Does that mean that you see a bucket only when it is completed, or does it somehow appear line by line?

Thanks,
Jack

DynamicRealism
11-08-2005, 04:37 AM
what andron said =)

lllab
11-08-2005, 02:11 PM
ok, enough teasing...i want it now or never, pleaseeee!

st.

jackb602
11-08-2005, 02:24 PM
Has anyone successfully logged in to the Cebas forums recently? I don't know if it's just me, or they're upgrading the servers in preparation for the release. And if finalRender lives up to what has been promised, it can't come soon enough.

Jack

JDP
11-08-2005, 02:26 PM
I feel the same as you lllab, frustrated with the lack of reliable info. :banghead:

JDP
11-08-2005, 02:29 PM
Has anyone successfully logged in to the Cebas forums recently? I don't know if it's just me, or they're upgrading the servers in preparation for the release. And if finalRender lives up to what has been promised, it can't come soon enough.

Jack

It's just you, I've not noticed anything.

Thalaxis
11-08-2005, 02:36 PM
I feel the same as you lllab, frustrated with the lack of reliable info. :banghead:

Reliable? It can't be reliable if it isn't there! :D

The silence is particularly frustrating after Edwn received some berating for not keeping in touch... and it makes me even more disappointed since I also complimented him for his communication... and on top of that, the Next Limit folks are sending out almost weekly newsletters again, so they're sending their pre-order and prospective customers lots of news while everyone's wondering what the deal is with finalRender.

Wouldn't it be ironic if MaxwellRender ended up shipping before finalRender? Gah! :curious:

JDP
11-08-2005, 02:47 PM
Reliable? It can't be reliable if it isn't there! :D

Lol, dates have been mentioned a couple of times and the last newsletter claimed the release would be in "days not weeks", this is what I was referring to.

STRAT
11-08-2005, 02:52 PM
doesn't bother me.

as long is it delivers what it claims, in a stable manner, then i'm personally in no rush.

Thalaxis
11-08-2005, 02:59 PM
Lol, dates have been mentioned a couple of times and the last newsletter claimed the release would be in "days not weeks", this is what I was referring to.

Oh that... that's ancient history, not information ;)

I'm in a somewhat silly mood this morning... still reeling a bit from playing with Sensable's haptic interface for ClayTools last night. Don't try it until you're ready to spend 2700 bux and start yelling at Maxon to support it for BodyPaint ;)

nycL45
11-08-2005, 03:28 PM
Has anyone successfully logged in to the Cebas forums recently? I don't know if it's just me, or they're upgrading the servers in preparation for the release. And if finalRender lives up to what has been promised, it can't come soon enough.

Jack

Jack, are you logging in with your real name?

jackb602
11-08-2005, 03:36 PM
Jack, are you logging in with your real name?

Yes, I fixed that a while ago. I'm not sure what the trouble is, but I'm swamped with work now, so I'll try again later.

Jack

nycL45
11-08-2005, 03:48 PM
M~R is pumping the excitement in the run up to 22 Nov. I got another email from them last eve. with promises of more info on features and test images over the next days.

Jack, when I had problems, Cebas sent an email telling me to re-register if it I couldn't get it to work.

xeno3d
11-08-2005, 08:20 PM
The silence is really starting to annoy me...

if its going to be another month/weeks/days then just say so

flingster
11-08-2005, 09:21 PM
Has anyone successfully logged in to the Cebas forums recently? I don't know if it's just me, or they're upgrading the servers in preparation for the release. And if finalRender lives up to what has been promised, it can't come soon enough.

Jack

i've not been able to log back onto the forum at all. so whatever they did is now preventing me from getting back on again..

philhoole
11-08-2005, 10:00 PM
It is getting frustrating isn't it. I've already been through the wall of silence with Maxwell this year and starting to get a deja vue feeling now.

The link to the ipclamp.wmv in the last Cebas newsletter still doesn't work either.

Good news or bad news I'd rather know something than nothing.

duderender
11-08-2005, 11:13 PM
i've not been able to log back onto the forum at all. so whatever they did is now preventing me from getting back on again..

I have no probs with forum. Remember you can't use silly alias names and I believe they are pruning them (i.e. denying access).

So re-register with your real name.

jackb602
11-09-2005, 12:09 AM
So re-register with your real name.

Yeah, I did that about half a dozen times before anyone mentioned that was a requirement. I'm disappointed in the lack of news, but I have to say a week of no communication is nothing compared to Maxwell. That's been on the way since at least February.

Jack

lllab
11-09-2005, 12:37 PM
slowly i start getting a little disappointed by cebas, all started so good...and now no communication at all, no plugin.

i wonder if it really is "finished" or if they have more severe problems.

stefan

Srek
11-09-2005, 12:42 PM
I wouldn't interpret silence as a major problem, with a small and dedicated team like cebas it is more likely that they are simply extremely busy currently.
Cheers
Bjrn

lllab
11-09-2005, 02:43 PM
ok i hope so,

it just started so nice from cebas with good communication from the start. it is no huge problem if it takes longer, but it much better to stay informed at least.

i guess it isnt to hard to drop a few lines on the current status every few days, so that users can make their plans and know what to expect.

i also cannot hide from my clients for days, they would get quite nervous...

well i hope the cebas team is fine and we maybe even will hear something...

cheers
stefan

BlackLizard
11-09-2005, 07:57 PM
Hi,
I'll try to spend this "waiting for infos" time with a simple question.
For what I understood from last Cebas mail there will be an application working as a license server providing the active node the ability to let the plugin correctly work with C4D.
I'm using C4D on a single PC so I'll be using it as server and main workstation, my question is: I'm planning to upgrade my machine which is quite old in 3 months or so and use it as a simple render slave when needed but, since I'm mainly a hobbist, I won't use it everyday having to keep it on after I moved C4D to the new machine, so I would like to move the license server also.
What is the correct approach? Is it possible to de-activate this server (that I think will be activated ala XP) and then activate another machine or is it better to use a temporary license for ther license server itself so that I will be able to renew it on a new machine?

Any suggestion?
Thanks
Bye

Thalaxis
11-09-2005, 08:36 PM
It might be easier just to install the license server on the machine you have, and leave it there when you upgrade. As far as I understand it, you'll be able to use the renderer on another machine as long as your license server is running and available over your network.

DynamicRealism
11-09-2005, 10:30 PM
^^ correct

BlackLizard
11-09-2005, 11:09 PM
Thank you,
but that was my primary problem, I mean, as I told you I've some issues in setting up another pc always running and available at home, so that's why I was thinking of moving the license to the new PC.
Anyway thanks again, I'll see when FR is out what's the best solution...maybe I've already bought a new PC... :D

dann_stubbs
11-09-2005, 11:28 PM
Thank you,
but that was my primary problem, I mean, as I told you I've some issues in setting up another pc always running and available at home, so that's why I was thinking of moving the license to the new PC.
Anyway thanks again, I'll see when FR is out what's the best solution...maybe I've already bought a new PC... :D

did you sign up for the cebas final render newsletter? the recent one had this type of info right in it.

hope this is not an issue with reposting but it is good knowledge and a good reason to sign up for the newsletter and get this type of info right form the source.

dann

----------------------

We will be using a floating licensing system with finalRender Stage-2 called IP-Clamp. This means you will be able to have finalRender installed on any machine you like as long as it is only in use on one machine at a time (or the number of licenses you have). This system is also great because you will never have to worry about reauthorizing your product if you upgrade your hardware or your machine crashes. Our licensing system can be on a server on your network.

IP-Clamp was developed based on feedback from our users working in all kinds of environments. Careful planning went into the protection system to develop a solution that will fit into as many different production environments as possible.
Find below a list of advantages in using IP-Clamp as a unified protection method for cebas plug-ins.
Plug-Ins protected by IP-Clamp are no longer dependent on the 3ds max version
Plug-Ins may "float" in a local area network. Any workstation can use the plug-in
Copyright tracking and usage can be controlled by one single source
Every cebas plug-in will be using this new protection system. Multiple systems are no longer needed
Additional Licenses may be generated online and installed in an instant
Demo, Lease and "emergency" licenses may be generated at any time
Single Workstations and Networked can be protected by one single easy to use system
Multiple release versions of one Plug-In may be used concurrently
By the centralized approach the true need/usage of licenses can be measured
Only one machine in a network needs to have IP-Clamp installed ever!!
No additional installation of IP-Clamp necessary on workstations at all
If you do not plan to use a cebas plug-in on a different PC or do not net network rendering, you may also install the IP-Clamp license server on the same PC you intend to use the plug-in with.

BlackLizard
11-09-2005, 11:56 PM
Only one machine in a network needs to have IP-Clamp installed ever!!
No additional installation of IP-Clamp necessary on workstations at all
If you do not plan to use a cebas plug-in on a different PC or do not net network rendering, you may also install the IP-Clamp license server on the same PC you intend to use the plug-in with.

Thank you for your suggestion, I'm sorry probably I was not clear enough, but that's exactly why I was asking my question.
Since I have to change that only one machine (or I will be forced to have it running and available on a small network that I don't have currently when I want to use FR) I was thinking on how to handle this scenario.
I mean, the server uses IP-Clamp to service different kind of licenses for all Cebas plugs, but I need to know if I can "reinstall" (really move) the IP-Clamp infrastructure to a new machine dropping the old one, so is there also an option to "license the license server" temporarily?
Hope it is clearer now, sorry ;)

Thank you
Bye

DynamicRealism
11-10-2005, 12:07 AM
from what im reading, yes u can