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warpy
08-21-2005, 04:44 PM
hey people,

this is my latest model, the last thing that remains for me to do is accentuate the armor on the body itself. so before i change the body topology i would like some input.

http://photos28.flickr.com/35887114_002a59c78e_o.jpg
http://photos22.flickr.com/35890957_a34f77b3bb_o.jpg
http://photos32.flickr.com/35890766_b9006ceee2_o.jpg
http://photos26.flickr.com/35571619_6dec6e0548_o.jpg

Saramago
08-21-2005, 05:31 PM
The topology is ok but there is a hell of a lot wasted geometry here lots polys doing nothing. The main offending area is obviously the pelvis/butt. Weird things happening on the back too. You could probably dump about a 1000 polys from all over.

warpy
08-21-2005, 05:34 PM
i am not looking to dump polygons right now, i just want a solid form.
the back has some muscle topology, i can show you the reference i used, its not highly utilized right now but i might work some more on it.

warpy
08-21-2005, 08:28 PM
well i took the time to remove some polygons from the heaps

http://photos30.flickr.com/35958194_e5ad83bd82_o.jpg

warpy
08-22-2005, 02:45 PM
i thought i'd get more traffic than this, too bad... :cry:

TwitchyHamster
08-22-2005, 08:06 PM
Looks good, except Saramago is right...waaaaay to many useless polys in the hips/butt region. I also am not sure what those X's are on each scalpula's. That is going to make for some odd deformations maybe. ;)

Anyways, good luck its a good start!

-Twitchy

warpy
08-22-2005, 09:02 PM
basically some useless muscles lol,
but its for a purpose i have yet to find use for :)

anything else you have on your mind ?

http://photos27.flickr.com/36225411_c09ee21aa4_o.jpg

Neil
08-22-2005, 11:05 PM
if you want a 'gaming' critique, you've got way too many polys wasted. but then you said you didn't care. so that kinda leaves the rest of us with nothing to comment on.

That was the honest answer Saramago gave you. I know you're worried about proportions and the big picture, but that is why you're in trouble, sorta. It's so much easier to fix the prportions on a low poly mesh instead of a high poly mesh. Cut out all those pointless edge loops until it looks right, THEN start working on top of that to add the detail and curves.
You could probably remove 500+ polys from the hips right now and you couldn't tell the difference in shape.
The hair has a lot of polys too.

but overall i mean it looks pretty good. the face needs a lot of work, but the body proportions are good. hand looks a bit thin though.

warpy
08-23-2005, 04:19 AM
the reason i dont care about the poly count right now is because this is for show and will probably never go inside a game engine, i am more concerned about topology and anatomy
rather than poly count :)

thanks for the advice though it wont go unnoticed.

warpy
08-23-2005, 05:30 AM
like i said an hour ago the advice didnt go unnoticed, i have removed close to 600 polygons.
*hands enlarged, boots resized, removed edgeloops and unwanted polygons.

http://photos31.flickr.com/36429184_f926df211f_o.jpg

Saramago
08-23-2005, 07:44 AM
You say this is for show but I don't understand who you want to show it too anyone related to games will take one look and jump all over it. Even without the wire it is obvious how many polys she is carrying. I've only been doing this a year and I can tell at a glance. If you don't want it crited as a games model this isn't really the right forum. Is that harsh?

warpy
08-23-2005, 07:47 AM
nope not at all,

i am taking all the crits in consideration no matter how i come across :)
i guess i went overboard with some polies but imo it looks good right now (front/side)
so unless you tell me a bit more specific which edgeloops should be merged or what do you think is too much, i guess i wouldnt know exactly what you mean :)

think happy thoughts

aesir
08-23-2005, 08:00 AM
hes saying the way you modeled it is not suitable for a game environment

warpy
08-23-2005, 08:10 AM
i have seen 8k models being used on game engines, i am not saying its okay but you cant realy say 5k is too much these days, beside thats not what i want to discuss atm.

like i said poly count is not what i am going after at this time.

kOmoo
08-23-2005, 08:37 AM
Are you going to texture her...

warpy
08-23-2005, 03:12 PM
she is going to be textured, bumped the works..

Robert-Fletcher
08-23-2005, 05:12 PM
thats only 8k Triangles? looks more like 8k quads. personally i'd cut down most of the detail on this just focusing on the outlines n use your current model for a normal map. that'd show your high and low poly skills off n u'd get a great result. just my oppinion tho :). Nice model BTW :) hope you texture it

warpy
08-23-2005, 10:15 PM
nope not 8k, its ~5700 :) ... five thousands and 700 :) :applause:

3k quads and 5700tris

Robert-Fletcher
08-23-2005, 10:35 PM
nope not 8k, its ~5700 :) ... five thousands and 700 :) :applause:

3k quads and 5700tris

lol i shall have to count in future. :) 3k quads n 5700 tries implies that u have some n-gons in there might wanna make sure they aint gonna cause problems, not sure about games but they're bitches when ur using SubDs. Looking cool man keep it comin XD

warpy
08-24-2005, 07:49 AM
it wont cause any issues inside a game engine

Robert-Fletcher
08-24-2005, 08:12 AM
it wont cause any issues inside a game engine
wouldnt it cause cones n disturb the tri stripping?, i know its minor but why except it

warpy
08-24-2005, 08:13 AM
the what ?

vrapp
08-24-2005, 08:34 AM
Rob[e]rt: No worries, ngons/tris in a mesh that will be triangulated anyway is no problem at all. They are often used for controlling triangulation for better deformation etc.

warpy
08-24-2005, 08:40 AM
hey sysop, i was trying to find some tutorial on how to quadrangulare tris i a mesh without adding too much polygons.

someone said "edge spinning" but that didnt make sense to me..
any ideas ?

warpy
08-24-2005, 05:16 PM
i have added the armor definitions, the poly count is high and i know it is.
i will reduce it later but other than that, what do you think about it.

http://photos24.flickr.com/36851308_72c37b300a_o.jpg

warpy
08-24-2005, 05:38 PM
http://photos23.flickr.com/36855517_cf8ea35dd3_o.jpg

warpy
08-24-2005, 08:34 PM
tweak stweak stweaks tweaks tweaks tweaks ...

http://photos25.flickr.com/36893884_8ca91bea98_o.jpg

dosadi
08-24-2005, 09:07 PM
I would imagine that "edge spinning" refers to the "flip triangle edge" command in maya. Which is an important part of mesh optimization particularly after triangulation. And ngons and tris DO matter on models that will be triangulated. If used improperly they will cause poor deformation not to mention bad tri-stripping as Rob(e)rt mentioned. Do a search on here for tri-stripping tutorials.

I like the design of here armor but I think she has some anatomy issues. That butt is looking a little flat. Her shins are a bit long (you could move the placement of her knee and fix that). Her shoulders are pretty wide for a hot chick, more than could be accounted for by shoulder armor. Her hands need more detail and her wrist could use some more taper from the front view. You might want to give her some more shapely hips, but thats really just personal preference on my part.

There are some mesh flow problems as well. You have some areas in which you have a tri that serves no other purpose than to bring out a useless tiny band of quads. Check off to the side of the crotch from the front view for an example. Work on getting an even distribution of polygons. That means the more polys you have of similar size and shape (as close to a perfect square as possible) the better. Obviously this isn't going to work for all areas but it will really help with proper mesh deformation.
Other than that I think this model is really coming along and you should have a nice piece when its all said and done!

warpy
08-24-2005, 09:18 PM
will try the edge spinning thing soon and when needed.

i am working off a concept, will fix the butt,
about the tris, yes i know i have some tris and i will try to fix them. although the one you are talking about is a quad that looks like a tri.. the bastard :)

i will see about the shins.

thanks for the good advice. cheers.

warpy
08-25-2005, 11:59 PM
armor finished,... i think

http://photos21.flickr.com/37208284_336bec084c_o.jpg

warpy
08-26-2005, 05:54 AM
face

http://photos32.flickr.com/37280559_4c8fef875e_o.jpg

Neil
08-26-2005, 03:49 PM
nice to see such dedication toward your work.
It's hard to judge it right now since everything is so blocky. Go under edit poly > normals > soft.
Smooth everything out, then repost. The face looks a lot better though, you might be ready to start texturing.

warpy
08-26-2005, 04:57 PM
thanks :) i am uv mapping as we speak. will repost snaps later on.

barcode
08-26-2005, 05:28 PM
If you are still working on the armor - several of the grooves you added are not very deep and do not show up clearly in profile, so you could probably get rid of them and just use textures or normal mapping for them.

warpy
08-26-2005, 05:43 PM
hmm, can you point out the ones you think are not too deep ?

barcode
08-26-2005, 06:23 PM
On the side of the hips, and shoulders

warpy
08-26-2005, 06:27 PM
i cant say i agree, the concept itself is all about her having a cat woman like armor.
but i will definitely look into that :) :bounce: :applause:

kukukiki74
08-27-2005, 07:17 PM
You should consider using normal map or putting armor detail on the texture... not on the game model. I think all that detail on the armor on so called game model is not right. Personally, i would have put all the armor detail on the texture.

warpy
08-28-2005, 04:14 PM
low poly version, only 1400 polygons less because i couldnt get rid of more

http://photos30.flickr.com/37920625_adc1e1e6dc_o.jpg

Robert-Fletcher
08-28-2005, 04:25 PM
looking good!, although you may still be able to get rid of the border between her crotch and leg, i'd say the normal map could handle it. lookin good tho man how's the UVW mapping going?

warpy
08-28-2005, 05:22 PM
i have started doing the head
but i think i am too much of a perfectionist to uvmap, i actually uvmapped it in 3 different ways from scrach. here are the results.

the uvmap is alligned according to the front and side views according to head position.

http://photos29.flickr.com/37723514_feaaae23ce_o.jpg
http://photos27.flickr.com/37723513_561e3bf003_o.jpg
http://photos30.flickr.com/37723512_242cf360d0_o.jpg

jbo
08-29-2005, 06:50 PM
i'd work on the shape of the hands and butt. there's still a lot of poly you could remove without loosing much if any quality. you should really smooth the UVs before you do anything else. you may notice problems once they are smooth. i really like the face.

warpy
08-29-2005, 06:56 PM
pretty much did all of that already the last day,

and did this..
http://photos26.flickr.com/38291293_2123cced5b.jpg

jbo
08-29-2005, 10:34 PM
also, there's no reason to waste so much UV space on the top of her head if it's going to be covered by hair.

warpy
08-31-2005, 09:42 PM
i am using 3 uvmaps so i could have as much detail as possible and i am realy not into saving uvspace so.... hint

http://photos28.flickr.com/38971665_af847a7fd3_o.jpg
http://photos28.flickr.com/38971348_2db822c63d.jpghttp://photos22.flickr.com/38971347_e23cf9cd76.jpghttp://photos22.flickr.com/38971346_b3783a2c91.jpg
http://photos28.flickr.com/38970635_8b0f3ea9d9.jpghttp://photos23.flickr.com/38970634_1b4d794a6a.jpghttp://photos27.flickr.com/38970633_bd8715e999.jpg
http://photos31.flickr.com/38970632_41f46a4e1b.jpghttp://photos24.flickr.com/38970631_4e6d586ace.jpg

TwitchyHamster
09-01-2005, 12:07 AM
i am using 3 uvmaps so i could have as much detail as possible and i am realy not into saving uvspace so.... hint


Hint...game stuff is all about saving space.


Why would you use 3 maps on a character if its for games?

-Twitchy

jbo
09-01-2005, 12:49 AM
yeah, and if you're gonna use 3, you'd better maximize that space the best you can. if you don't want to worry about polycount or uv efficiency, perhaps games modeling is not for you.

toebee_1
09-01-2005, 01:55 AM
while efficiency is very important, teh idea of using multiple maps isnt a bad idea. The games I have been working on the industry have characters and vehicles that use multiple maps for different sections of the body. Granted, this doesnt mean that you can use 3 1024x1024 maps, but multiple smaller maps can work fine. There are many different applications.

warpy
09-01-2005, 04:22 AM
... ... ... ...

warpy
09-01-2005, 04:22 AM
your arguement would be a reasonable if you are making a PS2 even some mid range PC games, i am going after high end PC or next gen console games.

i have seen game models with 3 1024 maps, i have a few friends who work in game studios
they sometimes use 4 maps. so your remark is very old fashioned. i have also seen professional artists make 3 maps without flinching. you should realy see more stuff before being so harsh with your remarks. :argh:

wille
09-01-2005, 08:24 AM
someone needs to come back to earth.

in theory you can use how much textures you want on a character but in the real world were I work there is a little something called texture memory. and if you are gonna use all of it on one character, the rest of the game will look kinda dull.like.lets say,all grey.
however its your character and you can do as you wish but when you say stuff like "well I have friends who work with games and they use this and that much" and "you should learn more before commenting on my stuff" you come off a bit cocky, and not in a fun ,charming way but in a quite disturbing way. escpecially since its obvious you yourself has no experience in a real development environment.

Just because we are about to step up to next gen and 512 megs of texture memory there are never, never, never any excuses for wasting space on a uvmap ,so saying "saving texture space isnt really my thing" isnt excactly the type of thing that would get you hired .

heh...except for when you are really tired.or mad.then its ok to waste texture space ^_^

warpy
09-01-2005, 10:15 AM
someone needs to come back to earth.

however its your character and you can do as you wish but when you say stuff like "well I have friends who work with games and they use this and that much" and "you should learn more before commenting on my stuff" you come off a bit cocky, and not in a fun ,charming way but in a quite disturbing way.escpecially since its obvious you yourself has no experience in a real development environment.

well i do listen and all the constructive critisism and so far was everything was considered seriously.


Just because we are about to step up to next gen and 512 megs of texture memory there are never, never, never any excuses for wasting space on a uvmap ,so saying "saving texture space isnt really my thing" isnt excactly the type of thing that would get you hired.


i have no plans to get hired, i am doing my Masters in Computer Science. and that takes my full attention although i might have ... future plans or something who knows what will happen. regardless to rearrange the uv space is dead easy and i could easily mirror every part and save tons of space, and pack it all in a map. i might just do that for the kicks of it.


heh...except for when you are really tired.or mad.then its ok to waste texture space ^_^

or when you just woke up at 7am and see someone that has the nerve to say "perhaps games modeling is not for you." and thats a quote. after clearly showing i do listen to critiques.i do not plan to continue this debate on this forum because i decided to go with 3 maps, but if you still feel you have something to say about it, put me on your msn and talk to me personally.

i hinted that i wanted critique on the way the uv is projected and not the way i used 3 maps.

cheers.

SHEPEIRO
09-01-2005, 10:43 AM
wow, im not even gonna touch this argument.

i think your textures are projected well, and there isnt too much waste either, if this is a project for yourself to get to know this aspect then its fine, on the other hand if its.............

no really

warpy
09-01-2005, 10:44 AM
lol thanks,

if its ... no realy :) what ? :)

warpy
09-01-2005, 11:19 AM
http://static.flickr.com/24/39181597_212a3aa671.jpg

SHEPEIRO
09-01-2005, 11:51 AM
whatever you want.... somtimes it gets a little heated in here, without need.

TwitchyHamster
09-01-2005, 12:13 PM
I think what the problem is that this is the game section of the forum and in most of the replys to your thread folks have tried to suggest to you ways to edit your model to be more "realistically" in line with the game industry as we know it today not what it's going to be standard a year or two down the road.

No offense was meant in any of my critics, they were only suggestions from the experience that I've learned on for the past few years. In fact I was just speaking with a guy yesterday about some stuff for a game engine and I happen to mention maybe using a 2048 map and I got this response...(You do realize 2048 is 16megs right?) Not that you said you are using a 2048 map, I just wanted to give you a realistic perspective.

Using multiple maps on a character is great! But multiple 1024 maps no so much. ;)

Anyways, I'm rambling; I haven't finished my first cup of coffee for the day yet, so if this comes off incoherent, please forgive me.

All I suggest is that you consider the source of your critics. I believe most of us are only trying to give you the best suggestions that we know how to give you. We want you to improve and learn. This community is one of the best industry related community's out there if not the best, I don't believe anyone is trying to knock you down.

In closing, I wish you all the luck with your degree and your future in CA.

-Twitchy

warpy
09-01-2005, 12:23 PM
twitchy

as a Game developer i do know all the aspects of memory usage for a game,
so you can say i know a thing or two about engines and stuff :p
on another note, my fellow game developers usually use a 1k map for typical games.
i do have a few friends who use the RealityEngine that are using 4x1k maps.
its a balance thing i guess.

thanks for the post. cheers.

jbo
09-01-2005, 12:26 PM
or when you just woke up at 7am and see someone that has the nerve to say "perhaps games modeling is not for you." and thats a quote. after clearly showing i do listen to critiques.i do not plan to continue this debate on this forum because i decided to go with 3 maps, but if you still feel you have something to say about it, put me on your msn and talk to me personally.

yes that is a quote, and i stand by what i said, but at least quote the whole sentence.

"if you don't want to worry about polycount or uv efficiency, perhaps games modeling is not for you."

do you really disagree with this quote? i don't care how highend this model is supposed to be... and you may very well be able to use 3 1024 textures on it, but wasting space is still a big no no. if you don't want to hear it, don't post in the games forum. i tried to give you a real critique several times, and you drop "hints" that you don't want to hear it. if you aren't looking for a job in the idustry, fine whatever, then don't post here if you don't want to be critiqued as if you were.

warpy
09-01-2005, 12:29 PM
edited to save some space

jbo
09-01-2005, 12:29 PM
edit: deleted.

calisto-lynn
09-07-2005, 06:15 PM
woooow!!! this looks great warpy!! even though im not into 3d i know how hard it is!!!great work:drool: :drool: :drool:

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