Xbox 360 to be built in China

[mummey]

My Macmini came from China, my IBM laptop came from China, and my iPod came from China. Are things like this really surprising anymore? :shrug:

[Hazdaz]

MUMMEY - the sad truth is that, YES some people are still actually surprised by this... some people think that China is still some backwards, 3rd world farming country, instead of the manufacturing and modern powerhouse that is really is.

That is just going to hit these people really hard when they or their families lose their jobs to China and India.

For a real depressing game, take 10 random items around your house - can be anything - and see how many of them are made in China.

(not saying that China is all modern and industrialized, but parts of it can compete with any 1st world country)

[pearson]

The thing that is so dissapointing to me is that China has some very serious Human Rights issues and yet corporate America just can't jump into bed with them fast enough. Look at the way Cuba is treated vs. China... Cuba has nothing to offer, so we'll take the moral high ground, but China, well, we can rationalize how all the money we pour into them will make them somehow turn around and become like us...:rolleyes:

[Hazdaz]

The thing that is so dissapointing to me is that China has some very serious Human Rights issues and yet corporate America just can't jump into bed with them fast enough. Look at the way Cuba is treated vs. China... Cuba has nothing to offer, so we'll take the moral high ground, but China, well, we can rationalize how all the money we pour into them will make them somehow turn around and become like us...:rolleyes:

Corporate greed knows no bounds.... that is why a strong and rational government should step up and 'force' them to either clean-up or see a cut-back on trade.
Ofcourse our government is neither strong nor rational.

[chow-mein]

The thing that is so dissapointing to me is that China has some very serious Human Rights issues and yet corporate America just can't jump into bed with them fast enough. Look at the way Cuba is treated vs. China... Cuba has nothing to offer, so we'll take the moral high ground, but China, well, we can rationalize how all the money we pour into them will make them somehow turn around and become like us...:rolleyes:

Corporations only see profitablilty as their bottom line, regarless of whatever "rights" humans or animals think they deserve. I think China is trying to find some sense of stability, despite it's horrendous political past. If the human rights violations creates such distress among you, don't buy the goods. It's a simplistic way of looking at a complex issue, people want the best for themselves and their children, however not many are willing to pay a whole lot for it. Maybe we can just learn to value the things we already have...

[HapZungLam]

China has cheap labours but good quality. How can compete

[opus13]

The thing that is so dissapointing to me is that China has some very serious Human Rights issues and yet corporate America just can't jump into bed with them fast enough. Look at the way Cuba is treated vs. China... Cuba has nothing to offer, so we'll take the moral high ground, but China, well, we can rationalize how all the money we pour into them will make them somehow turn around and become like us...:rolleyes:

...and thats why i dont buy things made in china.

sure, many items i purchase may cost more (like that kitchen timer from switzerland $:eek:.00) but at the end of the day i think i am happier for not supporting china. go to WalMart (http://www.coopamerica.org/programs/sweatshops/scorecard.cfm)sometime and see what isnt made in either china or a sweatshop.

i dont want to be a part of that. i could get a better bargain somewhere else, but i protest in the capitalist way: i vote with my dollars.

[pming]

Hiya.

Well, China may have some human-rights issues...but then again look at their population and culture. It's very family oriented, as well as having the whole 'honor' thing. Do you think there wouldn't be any human-rights issues in the US if it had a population of 1.3 *billion* people? There is no way in hell that a republic/democracy could handle that size of a population...especially if you throw in the power of the all-mighty dollar. I have nothing but respect for China; they don't take any shit from anyone, they do what THEY think is right, and they don't appologies for their beliefs on the matters. There country isn't in chaos, and while life is hard (if not outright sucky) for many folks there, at least they aren't getting bombed, shot or threatened by religious nuts/self-rightous governments.

Me? I don't care where my stuff comes from. China, Japan, India...I don't care. If you want to make a change in how things get manufactured and where, then you have to go after the originators of the product and the products main consumers. Oh...wait...that would be us. ;)

[pming]

...and thats why i dont buy things made in china.

sure, many item

Really? What about the computer parts you're using? What about the chair you're sitting on? what about the mouse you're using? The monitor? The carpet in your house? I'm glad you feel better about yourself when you specifically buy stuff 'non-chinese made', but I'm sure that you use stuff 'made in China' all day long. If not at home, what about when you go out for dinner? Do you ask where the appliences that are being used to make your food are made in? You may not have bought it, but you are supporting it by giving money to the guys who bought it in the first place (hope that made sense).

The simple fact is that you can NOT get away from using/buying stuff "made in china". There are probably many MANY things that say "made in USA" which aren't...they may be "put together" in the USA but I'd bet dimes to dollars that most/all of their components came from China (or some other country).

[Signal2Noise]

Thread = :rolleyes:

Folks, this may come as a surprise to all you young ones but before China and India there was...TAIWAN!

[mummey]

Thread = :rolleyes:

Folks, this may come as a surprise to all you young ones but before China and India there was...TAIWAN!

Before that was Korea and Japan...

[pearson]

@ Pming - Saying that to govern a country of 1.3billion people you have to control their media and internet, and shoot anybody who protests is just :eek: . None of those 1.3B people should have any say in how their country is run? And why jump on opus13, somebody who is doing something non-violent to support their ideals? Just because you don't care if slaves made what you buy doesn't mean other people shouldn't care...

@ opus13 - Much respect to you! I did that for several years and it's got harder and harder until I finally gave up. :sad:

In general, if we fast-forward a few years, all manufacturing will move to china, all non-management tech stuff will go to India...who in America will have any money to buy the stuff being imported? It seems inevitable that companies will seek the lowest cost vs. highest quality product, but won't there come a tipping point? (I admit that I don't understand economics very well)

[Ninjas]

The more money Chinese and Indains make, the less they'll want to spend time working in sweat shops. Utimately there will be global equalization, with jobs going to people with talent irrespective of where they live. People in the US will, temporarily experience a slower improvement in our standard of living, but once the Chinese, Indians etc are educated and doing basic research, everyone will benefit. For example, China is working on reactors that use uranium flecked graphite spheres so that they will never risk a melt down. This technology was invented by Germans, but because of irrational fears about nuclear energy in the west, the technology was never investigated.
Despite the huge problems with a capitalist system, it does help not just us out but also spreads the wealth. Capital flow into China is a perfect example of this (And before this Japan, Taiwan, South Korea. all places that USED to produce low cost goods). While I personally fear a new cold war with China, perhaps the best thing to prevent this is to have deals like the IBM/Lenovo one where Chinese companies become dependant on the US and vice versa.

[coupon]

Taiwan's still there, Taiwanese own a lot of the factories in China. I see this as good news all round. Western countries need to tighten their / our belts and become more competitive.

[brkn]

The more money Chinese and Indains make, the less they'll want to spend time working in sweat shops. Utimately there will be global equalization, with jobs going to people with talent irrespective of where they live. People in the US will, temporarily experience a slower improvement in our standard of living, but once the Chinese, Indians etc are educated and doing basic research, everyone will benefit.

Except because of the hugely disproportionately high wages in developed countries like the US, UK, etc. versus the incredibly low wages of Chinese and Indians and their sheer numbers, the averaging effect will bring the standard of living for developed countries down, as well as the others up. You reap what you sow, I guess.

[Ninjas]

I seriously doubt that that the puchasing power of Americans will go down. Buying power went from 25,000 to 35,000 in the 10 years between 1990 and 2000. An increase of 40%. What that means is in the next ten years our real wages would have to go down probably 40% for us to have a decrease in buying power, EXCEPT, the reason our buying power goes up is because of technology, and technology is going to increase at an increasing rate with all those extra people figuring things out. So, our real wages would probably have to dip 50% or 60% for us to be worse off in 10 years. Unless there is a coutry wide plague, or thermo-nuclear war, I just dion't see that happening.l

[Hazdaz]

...and thats why i dont buy things made in china.

That has got to be one of the funniest things I have ever read... seriously.... one of the funniest.

Either that is you being SOOO niave, or just flat out ignorant (and you can be offended by that or not, I am just stating the facts). There isn't a chance in HELL that you can own a home or even an apartment and not have - not some - but a majority of items in that place be made in China. Like was mentioned above, your computer alone is definitly going to have a large number of Chinese parts (with the rest Taiwan - whihc is essentially also China). Then a large percent of everything else you own - from your clothes to your shoes to your computer mouse, nearly all your kitchen appliacnes, and the list goes on and on.

I have a deep-rooted habit of always checking where things are made - even when I am just walking down the local hardware store or electronics store or such, and you are not going to escape China.

[vrf]

Hiya.

Well, China may have some human-rights issues...but then again look at their population and culture. It's very family oriented, as well as having the whole 'honor' thing. Do you think there wouldn't be any human-rights issues in the US if it had a population of 1.3 *billion* people? There is no way in hell that a republic/democracy could handle that size of a population...especially if you throw in the power of the all-mighty dollar. I have nothing but respect for China; they don't take any shit from anyone, they do what THEY think is right, and they don't appologies for their beliefs on the matters. There country isn't in chaos, and while life is hard (if not outright sucky) for many folks there, at least they aren't getting bombed, shot or threatened by religious nuts/self-rightous governments.


While I agree very generally that the population of China makes some privileges impossible, you are so very, very wrong on how the government should treat it's people. Freedom of the press, of religion, of free thought, etc, should absolutely be a right for the Chinese people. You are blind to what goes on there if you "have nothing but respect" for the Chinese government. I've lived in both China and (the nation of) Taiwan and I've seen up close and personal what kind of iron control China's communist government has over it's people. We're talking brainwashing here, and imprisonment and torture for those who try to go against the will of the government. I've known church leaders who were thrown in jail for years because they simply taught about Jesus. (And we've all seen what happened to the Falun Dafa guys.) I've seen kids getting questioned by local authorities simply because they tried logging on to a Western news site. And for the entire time I lived there, I saw the continual stream of government propaganda that passed for "news" for most of the nation.

Read a book like Wild Swans (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385425473/103-4287158-2447833?v=glance). Although China has come a long way (especially economically) since the events recorded in that book, it still has some very bizarre and dangerous power issues. You'll do fine in China if you just go about your job, making money and contributing to the blossoming economy. But, if you value your life, you will not speak up about any injustice that goes on in the country, or follow any schoolof thoughtthat the government considers "subversive"

[vrf]

... (with the rest Taiwan - whihc is essentially also China) ...

Try telling that to a Taiwanese person.

[Hazdaz]

I seriously doubt that that the puchasing power of Americans will go down. Buying power went from 25,000 to 35,000 in the 10 years between 1990 and 2000. An increase of 40%.

There isn't a chance in hell that someone posts a figure like that without being called-out on it - post up a source/link, cuz that number is so far out, it is essentially meaningless.

Explain to me what "buying power" is in your theoretical figure there, cuz wages have been FLAT for quite a few years now (rising only a few percent) - thus the very low inflation that we have seen in the US for over 5 years (and probably almost 10 years now). Low inflation does NOT equal an increase in "buying power" - it actually means that what you can buy with the money is basically staying steady. Ofcourse if you factor in the large increases in gas and healthcare the last 5 years - whihc many/most inflationary figures do NOT include, the buying power of the average American has actualy gone down, not up.

[Hazdaz]

Try telling that to a Taiwanese person.

Meh. Whether anyone wants to admit it, I think everyone knows deep down that that is true. And I think we ALL know that within our lifetime that China will one day say enough is enough and take Taiwan back - which will probably result in another war. Not saying that any of that is right, but we all know that one day it will happen.

[Cronholio]

at least they aren't getting bombed, shot or threatened by religious nuts/self-rightous governments.

Actually they are...

Start reading


http://www.chinesehumanrightsreader.org/activst/activist.html

[vrf]

Meh. Whether anyone wants to admit it, I think everyone knows deep down that that is true. And I think we ALL know that within our lifetime that China will one day say enough is enough and take Taiwan back - which will probably result in another war. Not saying that any of that is right, but we all know that one day it will happen.

Yeah, I'm afraid you're probably right there, except for the "taking it back"part. The PRC has never once controlled Taiwan.

Like you say, it may not be right, but it will probably someday happen. I suspect it'll be more of an "economic absorption," though. (The world (especially the US) will not allow Taiwan to be taken by force.)

[Ninjas]

There isn't a chance in hell that someone posts a figure like that without being called-out on it - post up a source/link, cuz that number is so far out, it is essentially meaningless.

Explain to me what "buying power" is in your theoretical figure there, cuz wages have been FLAT for quite a few years now (rising only a few percent) - thus the very low inflation that we have seen in the US for over 5 years (and probably almost 10 years now). Low inflation does NOT equal an increase in "buying power" - it actually means that what you can buy with the money is basically staying steady. Ofcourse if you factor in the large increases in gas and healthcare the last 5 years - whihc many/most inflationary figures do NOT include, the buying power of the average American has actualy gone down, not up.

Wow, since you are so bright about economics, and I only have a bacholers in it, you sure did tell me. Maybe now you should let the US government know how silly the consumer price index is.
Actually, I thought most people with an education knew what buying power was. If you want to look at one industry, say computers, it is crystal clear that your money buys more now than it did in 1995 (At least I wouldn't trade my new duel Xeon workstation for my old 386)
Here is a cool little webpage that incorprates widely available statistics. If you still don't understand, there is a cool little link there telling you how it works.

Link (http://www.newsengin.com/neFreeTools.nsf/CPIcalc)

Almost forgot. To get the correct data. You have to put in average household income for 1980 and 1990 (in 1980 and 1990 dollars, which I'm still tracking down)

1980 average income (according to US census bureau) = $17,710, in 1990 buying power $27,184
1990 average income (according to US census bureau) = $29,943

So maybe buying power isn't increasing as fast as I said before, only 8 or 9% for that time period. What the consumer price index doesn't acount for are emerging technology.

Even if there is zero inflation, your buying power still goes up because things get better at the same price.

[pearson]

Meh. Whether anyone wants to admit it, I think everyone knows deep down that that is true. And I think we ALL know that within our lifetime that China will one day say enough is enough and take Taiwan back - which will probably result in another war. Not saying that any of that is right, but we all know that one day it will happen.
For one thing, saying that supporting the government of Taiwan is the same as supporting the Communist Chinese is not correct.

As for "reunification" as the Communists call it, I'm not so sure. Look at Hong Kong. The Communists don't support any of the freedoms Hong Kong has had for so many years, but they can't deny that it is a goose that's been laying golden eggs. Now they "have" it, but don't know what to do with it. They try to take away the freedoms the people are used to, but without killing that goose and stopping the flow of golden eggs. That is the only thing that has stopped them from just rolling tanks into Hong Kong and killing protesters until everyone cowers in fear.

For the same reason, I don't think they will just bomb Tiawan into submission, as it would significantly lessen the value of the acquisition. Of course, anything could happen.:shrug:

[Hazdaz]

Wow, since you are so bright about economics, and I only have a bacholers in it, you sure did tell me. Maybe now you should let the US government know how silly the consumer price index is.
Actually, I thought most people with an education knew what buying power was. If you want to look at one industry, say computers, it is crystal clear that your money buys more now than it did in 1995 (At least I wouldn't trade my new duel Xeon workstation for my old 386)
Here is a cool little webpage that incorprates widely available statistics. If you still don't understand, there is a cool little link there telling you how it works.

Link (http://www.newsengin.com/neFreeTools.nsf/CPIcalc)

Almost forgot. To get the correct data. You have to put in average household income for 1980 and 1990 (in 1980 and 1990 dollars, which I'm still tracking down)

Awww... is someone upset that they got called on the total BS that they posted?!? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in that post- I am just going to hope that it was posted while you were drunk. I'll restate what you posted above to document now ludacris your post was: "Buying power went from 25,000 to 35,000 in the 10 years between 1990 and 2000. An increase of 40%."

WOW....You even have the gall to mention computers?!? Computers actually have NOT gone down in real price actually (well within +/- 5 years)... sure the power that they offer has skyrocketted... but a decent PC with all the modern features (for average computing purposes) 1 year ago, or 5 years ago is still going to cost you +/- $1000. And PCs specifically (and electronic gadgets in general) are a very poor example to use just because they advance to quickly.

Oh, and just to throw in one more rachet into your absurd statement above - the prices of homes ALONE (not counting all the other things), have been jumping +/-10% EACH YEAR (and in many places is it 20+%). That alone wipes out a huge chunk of purchasing power that the average American might have gained cuz wages haven't even come close to rising that fast.

<--- shakes head in disgust and heads off to bed.

[Lunatique]

Hey guys, how about holding back the hostility and aggression and keep calm during the discussion?

It seems that China is the hottest topic these days, since you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone having a discussion about the changes happening in China. Most of us at cgtalk are from free and democratic countries where we enjoy having rights that the people in China do not have, so it intrigues us and fascinates us to talk about a society/government so different from our own. But remember, There are lots of other governments and societies that are far more severe than China.

I was born in Taiwan in 1972, immigrated to the United States in 1984, and then started living in China in 2001 (not of my choice. I was only visiting, but met my wife and now we're waiting for her immigration visa so she could return to the States with me). I've seen enough of both the west and the east, and there are just no answers for the problems we see. We can debate and discuss all we want about China, but here are some facts that will not change no matter how loud we raise our voices shouting over each other:

China's economy is booming, and the entire world wants a piece of the China pie. That's why game publishers are setting up offices here in China, and that's why McDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut, Walmart..etc already dominates the fastfood/retail business here. This includes all other industries as well. China is a good business choice for many industries because labor and materials are cheap. China is not the only country that western countries farm out manufacturing to-- Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, India, Mexico..etc are all places that the west farms out manufacturing to. This is simple business sense. It'll never change, no matter how much we complain about it.

Most of us are too young to remember, but there was a time when "Made In Japan" was something to sneer and laugh at. Now, no one laughs anymore. In fact, many see "Made In Japan" as a sign of superior quality. I'm not saying the same thing will happen with China, since the Chinese are very different from the Japanese, but you can never tell what the future will bring.

[Ninjas]

Hey, I have nothing to prove here. I admit, I quoted some stuff off the internet that was for only one local area and not for the whole country by mistake. Call me a 'tard.

I didn't just make up the idea of buying power, and it is increasing. The housing market is in a bubble. The reason is all the easy credit, so in fact the high price of housing is proof that most people are having no problem buying houses at all.

Yes, that is what I'm saying. You pay the same amount for a computer that is much more powerful. So if what I''m saying is nonsense, maybe you can explain why all the stuff we can buy now for the 'same price' is so much better than in 1905? I bet horseshoes are way more expensive now than then, so we must really be suffering right?

[coupon]

Taiwan's neither one thing or another, lots of people there want lots of different things, some independence, some a full unification with the PRC, others a one country, two system style thing, many a mixture. China's had a long history with Taiwan, but it's never been under the PRCs control and was very autonomous when it was last a part of China (quite a long time ago).
As for China's human rights, most currently developed nations got where they are today via awful abuse of human rights. The class system during the industrial revolution in England, slavery in the united states, Stalinism in Russia. Now that these countries are developed, they treat their own citizens better, but often at the expense of foreigners.
A Chinese made Xbox means cheaper price for those who can afford it, and some (probably less than is fair) coin going to those who really need it.

[justynmagz]

Hey question, does anyone have any pictures of the Xbox 360 in a rendered 3D picture? If so, just message me. Thanks!

-JustynMagz

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