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Mike RB
08-15-2005, 09:17 PM
I would really like to hear some opinions about somthing. In the past we've had some nasty threads here regarding Lightwave and "the application by the developers formally known as the LW development team" or (TABTDFKATLWDT).

Recently a thread was posted here about a presentation that TDFKATLWDT gave at Siggraph, it was just asking if anyone had seen it and what thier thoughts were. It was immediately moved to the TABTDFKATLWDT forum. I'm sure this was to avoid a big flame war, however, TDFKATLWDT is a complementary product to LW. And some of us will be using it in conjunction with LW.

I think everyone has come to the conclusion now that TDFKATLWDT are producing something new, and that LW development is in good hands with thier new crew. We do allow in this forum a lot of news/info about zbrush/bodypaint/messiah/xsi/maya... is there any good reason at this point not to allow info about TDFKATLWDT's product? Other than in the "Stealing features" threads of course.

Here is the thread in question:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=2548160#post2548160

Mike

telamon
08-15-2005, 09:41 PM
It could be possible if Roberto opens a "stealing feature" thread for Modo... There are none...

Good point Mike, I was a bit sad for Paul K when I found his thread there.

In another forum even the TDWA2GDDDGUOSF word was censured :(

The problem is not TUDOGOSDGH... The problem is the incredible ability of those to repeat the same words (pros or cons) the fantastic ability that a few have to see flamewars where there are only discussions.

Saying TGDUOSGISD is better than LW in this or this field is forbidden here. I have been to C4D Forum today where a thread partly deals with UIOSFFSFKFHK and some users are bashing C4D a little bit pretending GDSUGSODIGODS is better than it... and NO forumer, NO mod has ever typed "flame war".

My feeling is that people must wipe their screen a little bit, the smoke they might see sometimes is not coming from a firestorm but is enlarged by the biased prism they have in their mind sometimes.

Nemoid
08-15-2005, 10:08 PM
if people would be mature enough to discuss about different apps and not starting flames, and become emotional, or also start endless rantings and more, well i think that w e could talk about TDFKATLWDT eve n in this Lw section with no problem.

i am personally a big fan of Lw and looking into Modo with a lot of interest.

i know both teams are doing their best to develop their apps and make em great.
even if i have to say,lets not hide the truth TDFKATLWDT app will be a complementary product to Lw for awhile, but it will be a true competitor at the end.

but competition gives life to great things and improvements. no competition = no progress. :)

So , Nt and Lux keep up with your cool work ! i know you'll give us amazing tools yo get our job done easier and faster. :thumbsup

Mike RB
08-15-2005, 10:42 PM
quick note here, back when I was a mod I used to move things too, but generally I'd leave a note saying what was posted and where it went, it just seems lately the moving has gotten more specific.

Cant we all just get along?

Mike

richcz3
08-15-2005, 10:43 PM
I am personaly glad to read the progress the new Lightwave team appears ot be going in. As far as I am concerned, there are two different companies. By this time most everyone has demoed alternate offerings. If it helps with your pipeline, more power to you.:thumbsup:
I imagine everybody at the respective companies has moved on, now so should the users.

The Gray Area
Then the discussions of "good tool for the job" leads to "best tool for the job". Somewhere in between is a line that someone invariably crosses. Most people can be civil in discussing advantages while others seem bent on reiterating their discontent. One way of the other.
:shrug:

Insider
08-15-2005, 10:44 PM
Hi Mike,
we use both programs equally well, currently doing modeling in 'that program' and rendering in 'the other'

It's a great workflow for us, and we'll continue to use both. Each has their place.

leigh
08-15-2005, 10:46 PM
For what it's worth, I have no problem with Modo threads on the LightWave forum, or any other software-specific forum here on CGTalk, as long as people keep the thread civil (and that goes both ways).

If you feel that a thread has been removed/moved unfairly, you are always welcome to contact me (there is a Contact Us link at the bottom of every page).

I am sure that Roberto is not moving threads out of malice or prejudice. We are very sensitive to the problems that occur here in the LightWave forum, which means that sometimes the moderators here move threads simply to avoid a potential problem, instead of moving them if and when they become a problem.

yog
08-15-2005, 11:05 PM
The two programs together make a great combination. It's a shame that some people will cut off their nose spite their face by in not using one of them.

It's a pity that the past (what ever it really is) can effect things still .... but it does, and we have to take it into account when posting.
I think it's a shame that general posts about "that other app" have to be moved out of hand, and I think it's extremely silly that it's name is censored/filtered else where, but in the case of the thread under discussion I do think it was right (in light of past events) to move it as there was no direct link with Lightwave in it, other than some of us use both apps.

Sometimes it's easier to walk around the wasps nest lying in the path, even though you have a good reason to walk down the path normally.
Heck, I think I'm beginning to sound too much like Eric Cantona :D

telamon
08-15-2005, 11:15 PM
I tried to send this to you Leigh but, because of probable hassling by PM you chose not to receive PMs anymore.



For what it's worth, I have no problem with Modo threads on the LightWave forum, or any other software-specific forum here on CGTalk, as long as people keep the thread civil (and that goes both ways).

If you feel that a thread has been removed/moved unfairly, you are always welcome to contact me (there is a Contact Us link at the bottom of every page).

I am sure that Roberto is not moving threads out of malice or prejudice. We are very sensitive to the problems that occur here in the LightWave forum, which means that sometimes the moderators here move threads simply to avoid a potential problem, instead of moving them if and when they become a problem.

Leigh,

we are all conscious of this. Some of us are moderators on boards of sizes similar to CGTalk and we often pre-close or pre-move the threads to prevent flamewars in order to keep the atmosphere positive.

Nevertheless, it may be time for the forum actors to act more like adults. ROberto's commitment and threads are a step forward though I have often said that I feel a bit sad that no forumer would do that without flames and that a mod should be obliged to spend time on this...

I remember once you posted "I am not in a kindergarten here!!!" or something like that.

Trolling and bashing trolls are not solutions. Closing or moving threads is not also a solution. It is to admit that the LW Board is a kindergarten. And for this, you'll need to close the board and make a mass PM or ban to the people poking in the fireplace.


Nevertheless, I understand CGSociety's position as a company. if anyone outside complains about the impact the LW forum has on the product, close the board and bye to all, happy people will post on Forum XXX and unhappy people will use other boards like Forum YYY. I censored the forums name intentionaly.

Courage anyway.

leigh
08-15-2005, 11:32 PM
Telamon, I agree that moving/closing threads isn't actually a solution because yes, indeed, it does make this like a kindergarten. Personally I don't like this idea of only allowing discussions that are akin to verbal masturbation about software (sorry to use that phrase, but it's the best description I can think of) and totally censoring anything contrary, instead of simply allowing constructive discussion and debate while keeping an eye out for troublemakers, and dealing with them individually. I feel that only allowing "happy" conversations is essentially living in a bubble and does nothing to help anyone.

Here on CGTalk I want people to feel free to discuss and debate things, provided it is done so in a constructive manner. That's all I ask.

Our official policy on CGTalk is "Censor flames, not opinions".

CAClark
08-15-2005, 11:33 PM
I don;t think it's so much self spite, but when you work to a deadline on a project, it is safer to go with the app you know to get the work done as efficiently as possible. For me there are too many little things that I have got little scripts and plugins for, that I just don't have a clue how to make modo do the same things. Now I know it is possible, and i will get to it.... I just need a period of calmness in which to ease in to modo.

I have had the opinion that modo was an incomplete app (rightly or wrongly), but all of a sudden, it started to mature in a big way... and suddenly it's a much more powerful tool in it's own right, let alone when used alongside the Wave.

And to Mike RB, yeah, I wish we could all just get along.... the spirit in which this thread has started shows that the flames need not appear.

Cheers!


The two programs together make a great combination. It's a shame that some people will cut off their nose spite their face by in not using one of them.

It's a pity that the past (what ever it really is) can effect things still .... but it does, and we have to take it into account when posting.
I think it's a shame that general posts about "that other app" have to be moved out of hand, and I think it's extremely silly that it's name is censored/filtered else where, but in the case of the thread under discussion I do think it was right (in light of past events) to move it as there was no direct link with Lightwave in it, other than some of us use both apps.

Sometimes it's easier to walk around the wasps nest lying in the path, even though you have a good reason to walk down the path normally.
Heck, I think I'm beginning to sound too much like Eric Cantona :D

yog
08-15-2005, 11:56 PM
I don;t think it's so much self spite, but when you work to a deadline on a project, it is safer to go with the app you know to get the work done as efficiently as possible. I fully agree that that is a valid agument. I think most generalists encounter the situation sooner or later where, when their back is against the wall, they are aware there is a more elegent/quicker way to do something, but because they don't know it well enough they go the brute force way because they know they can do it without thinking.
What I was refering to was the now famous quote where after holding forth on why TABTDFKATLWDT was such an infierior app, a quite well known LW user followed it up with "I've never used it, I never will" :rolleyes: Some TABTDFKATLWDT users actually wanted to turn the quote into a T-shirt design :D

telamon
08-16-2005, 12:06 AM
verbal masturbation about software (sorry to use that phrase, but it's the best description I can think of)

it is quite a good summary and when I open certain threads I have the same words in my own language (Masturbation intellectuelle - no need to translate, I think you understood).

To go back to the original thread, every app has a lot to offer. Some people may fall in love with one of them but it is often irrational (Mr Spock speaking). Chosing to use always the same package, combining the pluses of package A and B, Switching to package A or B when you feel that your most-used package is going down slowly or stagnating while the other SEEM to grow, is more rational and factual. There is something at the utmost factual: we are all very close to a period when we'll have to open our wallet again after having purchased one or several additional packages since LW 8 has been released.... So factually and rationally, it is only a question with money....


Bashing any other application is often useless. I have read here that Maya is considered to have a shabby modeler and is almost useless and modo will replace Maya's modeller. It seems to me that some of the greatest works posted on CGTalk have been modelled with this awful tool. The artist does the thing... He does it more or less quickly depending on the tools he has within reach and his level of practice of these tools. It is only a question of speed, time and thus money.

The people who say LW can do are not to be bashed as well. LW can do everything to an extent limited by its own limitation. I can model getting rid of ngons in LW because I do not model in subpatch mode... LW can handle NGons... that is my example. With LW, a good artist can produce the best renderings on the market, even better than with Mental Ray because it is quicker to set up AS LONG AS those renders are not affected by LW's weaknesses (e.g. motion blur)... To be precise, I mean better as a global combination of cost, quality and time (I am a project manager... sorry).

I said on another board, I do not need modo's steroids. Because my client does not need these steroids. At the moment I rather need CAD-related steroids to be able to import / tweak objects coming from CAD applications. I will probably buy 3DS Max soon because one of my client wants a pure .max output from a 6 man-month project. I'll buy 3DS Max with pleasure. Believe me.

OK that were my 2 cts. I hope the thread is not closed when I'll click on submit reply...

c-g
08-16-2005, 01:24 AM
Personally I don't like this idea of only allowing discussions that are akin to verbal masturbation about software (sorry to use that phrase, but it's the best description I can think of)

There is a lot of that happening though. Quite a few of the "Tell us about..." including the first four sticky threads seem like that. Post something just to make you feel good about your choice of software. At first your comment might seem slightly offensive but it really hits the nail on the head.

oops, the message got sent early.

Some of the biggest problems with these threads is that some users forget they are just buying licenses to use a piece of software. The developer's career choice should have nothing to do with your decission nor justify your crusade to badmouth them. Most of these threads also turn personal. There is also a mob mentality when you get a LOT of people that can post without face-to-face confrontation.

Snosrap
08-16-2005, 03:15 AM
TABTDFKATLWDT presentation at SIGGRAPH was very well done. TABTDFKATLWDT 201 looks to be like a very nice tool. I like how Brad is still talking about "playing well with others". He gave nice compliments to Z-Brush, even stating that while TABTDFKATLWDT 201 had some similarities to Z-brush., it wasn't really a competitor to it. They seem to just have a really neat attitude about the industry and they are in it because they enjoy it. It looks like they have a very bright future with TABTDFKATLWDT. People seem to worry about their favorite app when a new contender comes out, in the end I think the competition will make all 3D apps better, and that's a good thing.

Cheers Snos

RobertoOrtiz
08-16-2005, 03:23 AM
Oh crap, here comes the mob with the pitchforks and the torches!

Must go to the keep!

-R

Nemoid
08-16-2005, 08:09 AM
every app can be good if the user is good. for example .
modelling comes also easier or difficult depending on methods. in maya can be long modelling with box modelling and subpatches at the same time , like some good lw users like to do, while its good to make hard surface, and more technical users can feel at home.it also depends if you want to use nurbs. there are cool tools about them... it also depends if you're used to use templates.in this case poly by poly can be really good. and so on. every user can find its strategies in every package to get his job done.

so that's the same with Modo. some user can like it, some not. the good thing about it is that in time it allows to use several modelling methods regarding subpatches. i also found on vertex monkey good scripts to extend modo or correct some little bugs. seneca ones are particularly good.

the good thing about modo so far is that's really open as a package it has some good tools, and selection systems. watching the presentation i had also the impression that what we have now, is only the tip of the iceberg of what Lux can do. it will end up to be a fantastic package if they keep on implementing things with the animator in mind, allowing a great amount of flexibility.

they took the strategy to develop one area at a time. so at fiirst a modeler, then paint, then render, and finally animation but the good thing is that these aren't separate pieces to join, but products come from a single environment : nexus and that's why they'll work seamless and smoothly with each other.

i'm talking about this mainly because the future of 3d content creation products, relies on integration, flexibility and ease of use. this is valid for every package.

also Maya and XSI are very flexible, maybe not like modo will be, but they allow alot of flexibility, especially XSI, and there's no reason why they shouldn't improve on that side.

Even Lightwave could become more flexible in time. especially if it will be integrated as Newtek seems to be doing.it has good tools and depending from your methods you can produce excellent stuff with it.it couls also be use together with modo so i don't see real problems in production for both packages.

finally a little word about Z brush. z brush is a cool package, and it has only a few competitors. it relies on its own technology: very optimized , very memory safe, and manages incredible amount of poligons. also, its tools are that of a 2d paint program since years, so i don't really think it will have a serious competitor at least for now. it is a seriously good companion of all apps, and its cheap too. the best thing other apps can do now is to allow the best support about a mixed pipeline between app x and ZB.

Zarathustra
08-16-2005, 12:48 PM
if people would be mature enough to discuss...

BING! You can stop right there. That's the root of virtually every complaint about this section. It's so damn frustrating. :hmm:

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