CGTalk - messiah 2.2b Update

stooch

08-17-2005, 03:08 PM

Its not that im even expecting new features, just bug fixes and SBD!!! Lets face it folks, for a dedicated animation program, soft bodies are KEY. I cant think of many characters that i would want animated naked. Or without secondary motion... This should be the #1 priority, that and well written, context sensitive documentation that is launced through the program with a hot key. F1 preferably.

There should be a list of CRITICAL features that a dedicated animation package should have. No bullshit, no fancy stuff, just hardcore key elements that MUST work. I would put SBD, Better rotational system (no more gimbal locks!) and riggin enhancements. Im at a point where i dont even care about auto rig, what kills me is the tedious and repetitive aspects of creating a rig from scratch. for example, once you setup the bones on one side and then link expressions to them, you have to do alot of repetitive crap after mirroring it. How about adding a word edit/replace to quickly change all of my _1 extensions created by copying items by _R for example. So that way, my Upper_Arm_L becomes Upper_Arm_L_1 and then i can just do a search for _L_1 and replace all instances of that with _R.

its a simple function that shouldnt be too hard to implement... Certainly easier then creating autorig.

Julez4001

08-17-2005, 04:00 PM

Stoooch, I agree with you wholeheartly.
I actually want better economic systems that serve
animators to be quicker and easier in the riging department.
I don't want to be known as a rigger, just as animator.

The mirroring of expressions, functional rig rescaling and auto renaming would be highly serviceable
to the "messiah" community.

I think Jason Schifers tools should be emulated. While he is a maya guy,
his tools makes more sense to the animator than what maya offers. One example is his grease pencil and his script that for FK/IK
When you are in IK, it makes the FK bones "locked" (and viceversa) and does a heck of a job organizing the keys ont he grapheditor when it transistion between the two.

Now with that said, PMG has made great stride in making tools at the behest of its users.

The SBD jittering fix has helped tons, my cape is starting to flutter and not pop as it did in 2.2a.

http://www.flarenova.com/lg_shazam.swf

I'll post an update to this(and my sit up thread as I have gotten back to it).

Leebre

08-17-2005, 05:09 PM

ouch....! :(

Ditto. That was harsh! :twisted:

Messiah really is a pretty awesome application in many aspects. I would say genius, even. Bones just work...you really only need some bones, adjust slip on some of them, and throw in a few expressions and you've got an excellent rig right off the bat. Armatures...indispensable. And the node-based material system is hands-down the best.

But there are some very, very frustrating aspects to Messiah as well. I mean, I still secretly suspect that there is the group of messiah users that we all see and communicate with, and then there is the real group of Messiah users that none of us knows about...a secret society called the Stonecutters or something. The reason I say this is because, from a new user's perspective, Messiah seems to do everything it can to prevent you from understanding it, or even liking it. Case in point: documentation. The fact that the docs are so outdated (and even incomplete in a lot of places) is just insane. This isn't brain surgery, where you can simply crack open a skull and poke around with some electrodes...this is computer graphics. If the primary path a user has to learn your software is the Easter Egg method it won't be long before the user gives up in frustration and finds another solution. It doesn't matter how genius your software is...if it's so nebulous that only the sacred inner-circle can understand it, well, then ONLY the inner-circle will ever understand it. Your customer base will be nil.

I think it's a testament to the value of the things that messiah gets right that so many people are willing to deal with what's wrong with the software. I really want to stick with messiah. I like that it is a small company. I like that pmG isn't big business. I like that it does things differently and that it's quirky and eccentric. I don't get sucked up into "upgrade-itis". I'm a firm believer that "because it's the latest" is not a compelling reason to spend money. When the toolset you have is already so powerful and deep that you aren't even using its full potential, why upgrade? As I listened to all the "new version" announcements from the big software companies I couldn't help but feel frustration because it wasn't about making great software, it was about "one-upping" the other guy. It wasn't about passion, it was about money. I call that "selling out". And I don't respect that one iota. So far, pmG hasn't taken that road. And that matters to me. Because in the end, this is all about communication and expression of ideas...not about money, and not about a bunch of electric impulses abstracted to 1's and 0's abstracted to machine language abstraced to high level language, etc. It's not about the tool, or even the medium, it's about what you are trying to say...from one HUMAN BEING to another HUMAN BEING.

But sometimes I wonder if pmG cares whether or not it even has customers. Have you ever seen/read High Fidelity? This guy and his friends run a record store. But they are elitist...they could care less if they have customers. They have a "I'm better than you because I'm so cool and I know about records" attitude. If pmG falls into the category, if they are just doing this for their own edification, well then, all of this is moot. Like it or not, if we choose to stick around then we will be subject to their whim.

I going to give pmG the benefit of the doubt though. They are human after all. They are subject to the same problems both work-related and personal that can put a kink in anyone's plans. Maybe they've fallen into a trap that a lot of software developers fall into...you spend so much time in the dungeon and you become so intimate with your code and how it works (or doesn't) that you assume that everyone else looks at it in the same way as you do and will use it in the same way you do. Documentation doesn't matter because you already know its in's and out's. But that is NEVER the case with the actual users. The end user is not you and they aren't thinking your thoughts. There is no way for them to magically know what you know about your software.

Anywho...I guess I've rambled long enough.

ThomasHelzle

08-17-2005, 08:28 PM

I completely agree. I wouldn't be as frustrated if messiah would be just another so so tool. But having that amount of genius parts like the shadertree and then kill it with some everydaytools that are either stupid or just missing like the search and replace for expressions hurts. And the best rendertree doesn't help if I can only output RGBA and Depth.

Ouch.

kvernon

08-18-2005, 01:43 AM

Yeah,

I have to agree with Thomas_Helzle. I was really hoping by now they would have incorporated those other buffer outputs. I can't remember the last time I talked to them about that (it was soooooo long ago ~ maybe a year.)

So it's still incomplete. :(

Kelly

stooch

08-18-2005, 04:19 PM

so we have a whole section of feature requests, how about starting a list of critical, important problems that need to be adressed before any new features are even considered?

AAAron

08-18-2005, 04:37 PM

so we have a whole section of feature requests, how about starting a list of critical, important problems that need to be adressed before any new features are even considered?

Think it´s a really good idea.

Divide it in to:

A: pure bugs, things that are just plain broken
B: missing base features, must haves that should be first priority after killing the bugs

ThomasHelzle

08-18-2005, 05:09 PM

stooch:
Go for it.
Although most of this stuff is years old and only too well known.
Your request with the search and replace is as old as messiah ~1998/1999.
It is also one of the many points where nobody can understand why it isn't there, since there already is a search and replace for object names... It should be a piece of cake to implement it for expressions and it is almost embarrassing to even have to ask for it.

I don't rant without a cause.
But I have given up trying to understand why pmG does things how they do them.
They aren't stupid, but they emulate it perfectly, being drowned in the dungeon exactly as Leebert said.

While I know that the Luxology Presentation video for 201 contains a lot of marketing blurbs and it will take maybe 2 years until it's really up to speed, the one thing that hit me, was that they "take user requests and not only implement them, but try to push them to the limits."
messiah is the other way around. Yes, they implement user requests, thank you, but most of the time only as far as the request goes, if at all. Instead of finally making the editsphere into the coolest gadget on earth after all those years of people going crazy with it, we now have an editsphere that shows the directions it is headed to.
This is nice, but it also means that the users will have to keep on ranting and moaning since this solves not even half of the problems.

Or take the SDK. It is fantastic that Lyle implemented things like the color control when I was coding my AoN:studio plugins and needed it (before that I had to call the Windows color selector with a button) but we are talking about a graphics application that came without a color selector for plugins in the first place.
Or I asked for a simple text field. Just a label. I don't know if the new area control is meant to do that, but until now, it wasn't possible to place some custome text in the interface. Huh? The Command tab has a help text for every expression???
A user defined area to paint previews? - no way.
A way to refresh the material samples? - no way.
Writing importers? - no way, since you can't create points, edges or polygons since "messiah is no modeler". :banghead:
I mean, how much deeper can you set the level with a 3D SDK?

So people spend their energy begging for the most basic bullshit, instead of cool new stuff.

And although I heard hundreds of explanations, I still don't get it and possibly never will.

You can try to help users, you can help creating a website like Zoogono.com for plugins etc., you can write shaders with 50MB of documentation to allow people to at least start with the badly documented renderer...

...but you can't write their software.

Maybe you can beat them up to speed - you seem quite aggressive. At least you were able to remove the false advertising from their website with your massive rant, something I tried for almost a year, even leaving the beta testing group out of protest without success.

Good luck.

stooch

08-18-2005, 06:34 PM

lol yeah i am aggressive because ive used pretty much every major software package on the market and naturally i have high expectations and messiah meets and exceeds most of them, at the same time it falls flat on its face in lots of pretty basic and critical areas that is as frustrating as hitting a brick wall...

if someone asks me if I would recommend this program to them, I honestly would have no answer for them. i definitelly would NOT recommend a beginner to touch this thing...

ThomasHelzle

08-18-2005, 07:20 PM

I know exactly what you mean. This schizophrenic nature of messiah makes it so hard for me. A part of my brain is unable to understand/believe that it is possible to have genius and braindeath so close to each other.

I was asked to do a stage presentation with messiah for a german distributor on the fmx 05 (big CG conference here in germany).
First my speech was planned on a very small stage and that was okay with me.
Then suddenly I was asked to do it on the big stage - and I rejected.
I wasn't able to stand on the same stage where Disney and Sony Imageworks present their work, showing messiah.
People who attend this conference want to find solutions.
But messiah isn't one.
Not at todays standards.
On a small stage I would have been able to tell people that it can be good for small studios and some special cases.
But in front of hundreds of people: "Hey, this software is 50% cool and 50% crap. You have unlimited rendernodes but the networkrendering doesn't really work. You get the best rendertree in the industry but you can only output RGBA and hard-to-control-Depth..." and so on and so on.
They would have thought, "Why is that guy wasting our time?"

I only recommend it to people who just want to animate and are lost in software like maya, max or even XSI. A lot of private projects have been drowned in the infinite depths of those tools.

But if Luxology manages to deliver what they promise, modo may become what messiah was supposed to be. At least they seem to have the right spirit and an extremely flexible base.
I don't know how many programmers they are, but I assume that it is also a rather small team.

I don't know what is wrong with pmG, but after 5 years, I can only assume that they just aren't up to being a software company.

stooch

08-18-2005, 08:03 PM

modo is going to offer animation???!!!

ThomasHelzle

08-18-2005, 08:04 PM

http://www.modo3d.com/modo/201/event.aspx

well worth the huge download.

I recommend the "Direct Download" as rar files...

stooch

08-18-2005, 11:57 PM

hehe my company has yet another entry in the wish list...

Spin99

08-19-2005, 07:14 PM

Sheesh you guys are just venting away on pmG?

You know I'm only a demo user for now but..
At the price point Messiah comes in I really don't see where to complain.
It's not like acquiring Maya, where you get instructional CD's,
but you don't have to sell your car for it either? :D

I've really been enjoying the Messiah experience, even with little documentation.
I think someone said genius somewhere, and I really think it has that.
I see outstanding results coming from this app :D

Actually nothing wrong with experimenting away?
I'm counting my coins 'till the day :D
But come on pmG a little more documentation wouldn't hurt anyone?

Why doesn't someone volunteer to do it instead of venting?

Leebre

08-19-2005, 07:26 PM

It's the "chicken or the egg" problem. In order to document features we need to know about them and how they work. In order to know about features and how they work we need documentation!

Venting from customers is actually a good thing for pmG. It's when we all fall silent that they need to worry. As in any relationship, it might seem like things are bad if there is a lot of venting and arguing going on. But that's a sign that there is still hope because it shows that you still care and feel passionately enough to stay involved. Unfortunately it is also many times a last ditch effort before apathy and detatchment occur.

ThomasHelzle

08-19-2005, 10:18 PM

Spin99: things are different if you use it for 5 years in a professional environment.

And if you haven't noticed: times have changed a bit. modo, silo, zbrush, LW and especially XSI Foundation are cheaper than what I paid for messiah, are nicely documented and do what they do quite professional and reliable.

Experimenting is only fun if you have a base to build on or if you are a hobby user. Otherwise it is just wasting time, especially if experimentation more often than not leads into dead alleys.

Venting?
I don't know.
If you buy a cool car and find out at your first journey downhill that one of the genius engineers invented a brake that has to be pulled upwards with the foot instead of being pushed down, you may not enjoy it too much in that needle curve. Especially when you notice the hand break is missing also. Later, after you leave hospital, you find out that it isn't missing, but you would have had to press an unlabeled button next to the lighter to engage it...
That's messiah.

And look at it in another way:
What is more efficient?
If one person who writes a software, documents what each part does (like I did with my shaders)?
Or if every user has to find out on his own - and over and over again after each update how things behave now?

It is fun to experiment with the softwares features, not finding them.

Life is too short to waste it for something like this.

And I really did my part of documentation for the renderer - thank you.

This forum is just a wailing wall - the messiah doesn't care anyway ;-)

stooch

08-19-2005, 10:39 PM

Julez4001

08-19-2005, 11:20 PM

Xform -- now has anyone experimented and figured that one out.

How are you holding up stooch?

Spin99

08-19-2005, 11:29 PM

Thomas_Helzle

Nice metaphor :D
Still, except for complete professional suites like Maya, it's easy to find
not so well documented CG apps?

I'm wondering if the price range might have something to do with it?
I mean XSI, Maya and LW have a best version at a different price point altogether.
Let's look at Silo and Blender for example :D
Maybe it's a small team that doesn't like to do documentation?

stooch

Yes I haven't done CG professionally just yet.
But I do remember reading up on stuff before asking for software?
Like when Dreamweaver first came out it had a tut, for example :D

Any case when I read up on this thread I thought I saw a lot of people venting...
Then I though of the poor Messiah team?
What if Messiah was written for Hollywood and reached mainstream almost by accident?
Or as a favour? What if it was budgeted out of a movie production?
Ok this is heavy speculation, but still :wise:

Any case I think I'll surrender to the wailing wall.
Maybe they'll change things someday? :D

ThomasHelzle

08-19-2005, 11:32 PM

Let's talk again in 5 years ;-)

stooch

08-19-2005, 11:48 PM

Xform -- now has anyone experimented and figured that one out.

How are you holding up stooch?

lol im happy to say that im pretty comfortable with messiah as far as getting around. Got a really nice, complex rig that works amazingly well, HOWEVER softbodies are driving me nutts, when i launch my lightwave connection after doing the animation, messiah windows flicker like crazy and my softbody simulation, although looping nicely in messiah, snaps like a bitch when rendered or previews in lightwave (as the loop restarts).

also when i actually render out an animation, in the render output, softbodies act nothing like they do in OGL in messiah, here is a test render:

www.stooch.net/flash/Fido_Walk.swf (http://www.stooch.net/flash/Fido_Walk.swf)

in OGL, the cloth is moving nicely, the hair is moving nicely (looops nicely) and it just looks better, but when i render i get taht stupid pop and the clothes dont look like they even have SBD applied at all...

And then peple wonder why we are "wailing" so much. Well, try actually using messiah, instead of just "playing around", you will start wailing just like us.

ThomasHelzle

08-19-2005, 11:57 PM

You have to bake all the "realtime effects" in messiah. Use PointOvenPro for messiah internal as well as for transfer to Lightwave - everything else will drive you crazy.

Looks great BTW. :thumbsup:

Julez4001

08-20-2005, 12:46 AM

in OGL, the cloth is moving nicely, the hair is moving nicely (looops nicely) and it just looks better, but when i render i get taht stupid pop and the clothes dont look like they even have SBD applied at all...

And then peple wonder why we are "wailing" so much. Well, try actually using messiah, instead of just "playing around", you will start wailing just like us.

For your info, you can get the free pointoven LITE

its free and has a reader and exporter.
In messiah
You can bake all your deformation out as a mdd file
turn off all effects and then load the reader either in messiah or lw (mdplug)
and your deformations will be just fine.

I use messiah professionally and I have no real problems with it for 90% of my workflow.
But I would like to be even faster in rigging so I can get to the business of animating.
I don't use the renderer except to play with and learn. its got a long way to go until I can use it pro.

Chewey

08-20-2005, 03:40 PM

Not to pile on but I'm sure there are plenty of somewhat silent(and reasonably patient) owners of the pmg product that have been there since day one and are still waiting for features such as the renderer to work properly with subd's.

I would never have imagined that at this point in time that it would still seem like years away from getting there.

One has to believe that this endeavor is merely a part time job for those still
working on it.

Leebre

08-20-2005, 05:52 PM

One has to believe that this endeavor is merely a part time job for those still working on it.

It would be nice to know that so a user can adjust his/her expectations accordingly. I don't think anyone would rag on pmG if that is the case. But it's a little disheartening for a new user to come in expecting issues to be addressed in a timely fashion only to find out that some people have been waiting years for things.

heynewt

08-21-2005, 03:07 AM

FWIW

I went to the Messiah thing at Siggraph. The brief conversation I had with someone at PMG, didn't remember the name, said they had an update coming out in a few weeks (from Siggraph) then something much bigger down the road. He was vague and didn't say anything about what the "bigger" thing was or what kind of time frame "down the road" indicated.

Of course the thing is, every single software vendor I talked to at Siggraph said mostly the same thing. Sort of, "Yes, look at this update we're showing at Siggraph, but this is nothing. I wish I could tell you what's coming down the road..."

You know, I wish I could go to my broadcast clients and say, "Here's all the animation I could get done by your deadline, but man, you should see what I'm working on for you down the road."

Robert

Leebre

08-21-2005, 04:18 AM

The sad thing is, Messiah is awesome right now as it is. I would much rather have the existing problems taken care and the existing functionality documented rather than just layering on more features that no one understands or knows how to use.

heynewt

08-21-2005, 12:01 PM

I absolutely agree with that statement. Other than better soft and hardbody dynamics, I'm not looking for a bunch of new features. Like I've said a million times, why the heck won't they simply fix the biggest bugs and put all their energy into helping people master the program.

The sad thing is, Messiah is awesome right now as it is. I would much rather have the existing problems taken care and the existing functionality documented rather than just layering on more features that no one understands or knows how to use.

ThomasHelzle

08-21-2005, 12:29 PM

Amen. :bowdown:

DMack

08-21-2005, 08:01 PM

Hi All,

This is the first serious grumble thread I've read for a while in the PMG area (though, as always handled better than in other forums IMO). Just want to see what people think of a possible theory.........As someone else said somewhere in cybersapce.....Luxology recently refered to their animation package as having 'armatures' and that that term has not been used anywhere else in the 3D world (someone jump in if they are!)....and given that the old Luxology website (won't find it now) said that they were 'in touch with' or words to that effect with, amongst others, PMG, I am wondering if there is some conversations going on between the two. Would make sooo much sense IMO....could be complete nonsense from me.....or just wishful thinking :) Anyone know anything?

PS Thomas....are you getting more tempted by Lux's offering? ;)

PPS Still wanting that dynamic parent in place (this is the kind of thing I find utterly amazing....such incredibly powerful tools, yet missing something soooooo useful in character animation - I just don't get it.)

PPPS They need to remove superblender OR make it VERY clear that it is completely unsupported!

ThomasHelzle

08-21-2005, 08:55 PM

Riggs in Blender are also called Armatures...
ZBrush is also a possible partner...

I don't know, feels like reading from coffee grounds to me.

But the best thing that could possibly happen to messiah is if some would buy into it, beat them up in shape, setting a policy that usability and quality comes first.
Then put someone there fulltime who can handle users, even the weird ones, and loves to communicate, then someone with deeper understanding on the docs, show users where the future will lead and voila.... ;)

I don't know if "tempted" is the right word. Some parts of the modo presentation were really fantastic. After all those years with monolithic software like messiah and LW, where every tiny change seems to be a major undertaking with the risk of complete havoc and most things can't be changed at all, I found that basic idea of the "nexus" and building from just objects and time and everything talking to everything just refreshing.
Also, they do a lot of things right, seem to really listen to users while adding their own ideas and are willing and able to communicate.
But on the other hand, their "masking" idea for texturing doesn't convince me. It may be cool for Photoshop users and if you have 5-10 textures, but for hundreds of objects? You can't see enough of it in the video, but I can't imagine that it isn't super annoying with large scenes.

If Luxology will deliver what they say and keep the current stride and at the same time don't just create another XSI/Maya/Max where the artist is drowned in stuff - It could become a serious alternative.
But I guess it will take at least 2 years until modo is "finished", even at their current pace. They run into the same direction and problems as messiah basically: The user wants to do everything in one place, so they also need particles, hair, cloth and tons of other stuff that today is almost a given for serious production.

We'll see.

PaulNewman

08-21-2005, 09:14 PM

I would imagine that pmG has a whole lot of development invested into something we have not seen yet nor have any hint of. Such efforts may have been silently partnered with Luxology. I also remember mention of this being made some time back - all just speculation?

Even if there's no partnership with Luxology, at some point pmG would be marching out the kitchen door with whatever they have cooked up. Based on my own coding experience and of what we've seen released with Taron's involvement, software development starts picking up significant speed once the core libraries and architecture is in place. Assuming the pmG guys have not been holding back, we should be suitably impressed.

With messiah being a relatively young product, pmG may have in the past skimmed over much needed smaller fixes and productivity tools in their effort to focus on the bigger picture. We are not privy to pmG's goals and corporate strategies and that does put us in the dark. However, until pmG announces otherwise or totally disappoints with the next upgrade, we should be thinking the best of them. The proof will be in the pudding.

ThomasHelzle

08-21-2005, 09:38 PM

Hi Paul, haven't seen you for a long time :)
Are things going well with your studio?

Everybody hopes you're right, but after 5 years I need hard proof instead of promises.
I also had high hopes on Taron and he sure is a cool guy and great artist, but to be honest, other than some nice shaders, I haven't SEEN anything that makes me too hopeful for the big picture of messiah yet.
It doesn't help me it HE thinks messiah is the coolest thing since sliced bread, or if HE is able to just write some tools he needs for a project, sitting at the source...

And I fail to recognise any "starts picking up significant speed" - where do you see that?

As far as Luxology goes - they announce partnerships with almost everybody and her dogs hairdresser...

messiah started as an inhouse tool at StationX, and it still feels like one.
All the surroundings fit perfectly to that scenario, since if it is inhouse, the developer is just a desk away and you can ask him or buy him a beer or hit him on the head - whatever the situation requires.
Right now it would be lots of hitting. ;)

Cheers,

Leebre

08-22-2005, 04:31 AM

Hey DMack, I haven't forgotten about dyna_pip. (I feel like mad Dr. Frankenstien with that stupid thing!) I actually had the free time to spend about an hour looking at it this Friday and have made progress. I'm starting to realize that messiah doesn't have the same workflow as the situation in which I envision using it though...but that is not to say that it can't work!

Paul, I would say that the core libraries and architecture have been in place from the get-go because it hasn't changed a bit...in fact, it's definitely suffering from growing pains as it is. And what would be the point of focusing on a big picture if everyone throws in the towel in the meantime because existing stuff is either not 100% functional or is undocumented? We as the end users have not been made privy of the big picture; the only view we have is from the trenches where sometimes it feels as if we are working in the fog, with blindfolds on, and with a partial toolset.

Thomas, I agree with you about Taron. Seeing his work carried a lot of weight with my decision to become a Messiah user (along with the stunning imagery of AoN). But I think it's obvious that he is of "the inner circle." I am in no way denegrading his outstanding talent and skill, but he also has a direct link with the gods, as it were. I mean, what he does is advertising for pmG: "Look at what can be acheived with messiah." Why would I purchase the product if I didn't think I was going to be able to do accomplish similar results? But everyone here knows that you can't just rtfm when it comes to this software. You've got to be "in the know" to truly fly this jet.

Isn't it fun playing armchair quarterback?

DMack

08-22-2005, 07:53 AM

Leebert - Cool! Didn't want to hassle you....I guess I also feel that it's such an important feature that it SHOULD really be coded by the main sw developers....but if you're getting closer - Great!

Thomas - Interesting take on Lux, you know, the shader tree with the photoshop style layers is the ONE thing so far that I have seen that I am slightly concerned about (and I guess Brads less than enthusiastic speech about procedurals - I love them!). I have pre-ordered 201 so I shall let you know what it's like when I get it. Re coffee grouts...yeah I guess ;)

PaulNewman

08-22-2005, 10:14 AM

Hi Paul, haven't seen you for a long time :)
Are things going well with your studio?
Cruising along, thanks Thomas. Lurking on the pmG forum.

<snip> I haven't SEEN anything that makes me too hopeful for the big picture of messiah yet. <snip>
That's just the thing. We haven't been shown what they are working on. And at the same time that most of the other vendors have just released next versions or shown technology previews pmG is rather silent. And that hurts our view of pmG relative to others but does not mean they really have nothing.

And I fail to recognise any "starts picking up significant speed" - where do you see that?
I'm talking software development in general. When Taron got involved we witnessed a burst of new goodies being shown and we all got excited. But I'm sure they didn't get Taron to be their PR man and now that he's back in his hole where he should be :) we are naturally deprived of seeing what he is seeing.

And what would be the point of focusing on a big picture if everyone throws in the towel in the meantime because existing stuff is either not 100% functional or is undocumented? We as the end users have not been made privy of the big picture; the only view we have is from the trenches where sometimes it feels as if we are working in the fog, with blindfolds on, and with a partial toolset.
Our (user's) frustrations may be real, but perhaps it should be considered that pmG are the ones in the trenches. Any professional user who is in the trenches with messiah should have practically evaluated the tested benefits of messiah in their workflow before going for it. Taron may have had the confdence in messiah for the Reeker project and decided to go for it, and I'm sure his position so close to the source made all the difference. I have not had that confidence so I have gone with something else in the meanwhile. You use the right tool for the job as available at the time and you shouldn't base decisions on what you saw others did or said or what you believe it should do. And yes that may mean that quite a few users may throw in the towel, but with patience the day may come when more and more people choose messiah for their pipelines and have a success story to tell. Pro users of messiah are using it for a reason - because it works for them in their pipeline. The rest of us are amateurs with regards to messiah - in other words not making money using messiah. As I understand the CG software development game, pmG will listen most closely to pros using messiah in a major production, using feedback from those guys to drive the product, perhaps even having a close relationship with CG producers which may make messiah like an inhouse tool but only for a season until things have matured and they release a new version for us to also have those benefits. At some point in the past I got the distinct impression from the forum that messiah is indeed being used by some major big deal productions. If that is the case, then that may explain a few things.

Some may rightly ask then why did pmG take messiah to market and not just silently let it run inhouse for some big productions. They should best answer that. At some point a company has to bring out the goods in order to get some momentum going and some new productions using their tools. I'm sure this whole thing is risky for them and has many pros and cons and likely fuels heated debates inside pmG. They have reasons for their timing while some may think it was premature. It may be that the market reaction turned out not as positive as they planned and the lack of market momentum translated to an inability to employ more top developers and that again has other side effects and so on.

Then put someone there fulltime who can handle users, even the weird ones, and loves to communicate, then someone with deeper understanding on the docs, show users where the future will lead and voila..
For a short while Taron played this role, but it sounds like a good idea for pmG to get someone full time to deal with the amateurs hoping for a fix, some online help, a glimpse, hints, consolation, crumbs, anything but on a frequent basis and when the forums are quiet, all of us amateurs appeased, that person could be working on the docs. :thumbsup:

Personally, I'm positive that pmG are addressing the big and small issues raised here on this forum and in productions. I'm hoping along with all of you. In the 2 years you wait for Modo 201, messiah may just end up blowing our minds.

ThomasHelzle

08-22-2005, 11:27 AM

hm - Paul, nice to see that you are an optimistic guy :)

I would have shared a lot of your points some years ago, but no longer.
My main problem is: We already had a great working tool 1999/2000 - the old Lightwave plugin version of messiah. It was used by major productions like CafeFX and even for the feature movie "Jimmy Neutron" by DNA, which was very well animated and nominated for an oscar...

The most productions I know of have switched to other tools since then. They may use messiah as a "tool in the pool" but no longer base their pipeline on it like they did.

And this is simply because for 5 years nobody was able to see substantial improvements in making messiah a professional tool. Reliability is massively substandard.

In one of my last projects where I had to rig a roller shutter for a "designer handy" animation, I had major problems with FlexMotion, since all the interface buttons were playing dead. So since "Filter Hierarchy Motion" didn't work and made my rig go crazy on rotations, I lost about a full day with finding a workaround. I did, but it was rather weird and involved a lot of work.
This problem was already solved, but they broke it in the version that was current at that time.
I don't know any other software that has that amount of degradation going on on a regular basis. A limited feature set or missing documentation is one thing, but for serious users, this scenario where every new version may kill already existing things is hell.
Now we have a new patch, but I would have to test each and every feature by hand to learn what works and what not. I don't have any desire for that.

So in the end, we still have the basic core from 1999 that works nicely, some improvements too, but lot's of holes where it counts.

And I no longer think the notion of "waiting patiently" is useful. People did that long enough. If pmG isn't able to deliver even parts of what they sold on Siggraph 2000, then no argument like small team etc. is valid, since they knew that beforehand. Then it was just another bunch of people overestimating themselves and wasting peoples time.

I still keep some of those old news announcements, very interesting read from todays view...

Cheers,

DMack

08-22-2005, 11:50 AM

If long term users, and users who can add to the sw, like Thomas H, are that concerned.....I seriously hope that PMG are paying attention to this thread.....It would be good to hear from them.

Suricate

08-22-2005, 01:04 PM

I don't know any other software that has that amount of degradation going on on a regular basis.

Well, then you haven't seen Animation:Master v9.5 back in 2002 !? :twisted: At that time Hash released about 30 patches within a year, with each update killing a few bugs, but also introducing severel new ones. A very popular bug was 'Crash on save' ...
In a way, A:M also was/is a 'schizophrenic' program: like a genius when it comes to workflow and CA, but when it comes to stability and rendering ...
But Hash eventually listened to the users and things improved, so I think that pmG should be able to do the same. I'm still relatively optimistic about the future of messiah:studio - but then, I am using the program for only one year, not five ! :)

PaulNewman

08-22-2005, 01:14 PM

If long term users, and users who can add to the sw, like Thomas H, are that concerned.....I seriously hope that PMG are paying attention to this thread.....It would be good to hear from them.
I suppose the fact that I'm not a long term user of messiah does affect my view. That would also play a role in marketing messiah where long term users just fall away and newer people who don't know the history excitedly buy into messiah . . . and the cycle continues. One would think that at some point messiah would become a tool of choice, whenever that is. I remain positive and I do have compassion when reading about the numerous frustrations which just each time confirm why I'm not using messiah professionally at this time.

pmG's goal should be to build a large base of professional rather than amateur / experimental / dabbler type of user. Each professional project messiah is used for is a score for pmG against all the other softwares out there, and brings with it a good chance of front page recognition here on CGTalk and elsewhere and of course then word of mouth will carry the marketing.

But only if the product delivers the goods. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

toonafish

08-22-2005, 02:59 PM

This is so disapointing, I'm still waiting for an update that fixes my display problems and with every update I hope these bugs are squashed. I'm still having weird refresh issues, especialy when I scroll through text menu's, and I can't use Messiah unless I set it to full screen. When I make the window smaller Messiah freezes up. After all these years basic stuff like this is still not fixed. I never hear anyone else that has this problem, am I the only one ??

I'm using a Quadro FX 3400 with the latest drivers on a dual xeon.

stooch

08-22-2005, 03:59 PM

well im actually on the verge of making serious cash for our studio, im not sure if you are familiar with fido, but its a huge character, especially in europe, and im working directly with the creator of fido and have him rigged and animated. I guess its as "pro" as its going to get for me yet im still fighting some hardcore issues that really have no excuse to be here after 5 years of development.

Want to hear something ironic? I had the choice to choose ANY software package on the market and i chose messiah because i have been intrigued by its possibilities back in 2001 when i was still in college. Ive been eyeing it for 4 years only to find that its missing features they promised.. although the workflow and rigging are brilliant, im still wasting just as much time as with competitive products due to broken features and horrible documentation. Im at a crossroads right now, should i stick with messiah or slap together a lightwave rig??

If i knew there is an upcoming major update, i would ateast have a light shining at the end of the tunnel, but i dont even have that since what we got with the last update was a fart in the wind.

Julez4001

08-22-2005, 04:08 PM

I am a long time user and I honestly have no big problems in the Animate section of Messiah. I use it for biped and some quadraped stuff. Its a solid animation program (XP, old Geforce MX, 2 ghz). I know PMG listen to its users. Take the OnionSkin, a lot of folks "hollered" about that one and they put it in (I wasn't one) but it seem to go with the competitive feature set that people wanted 2 years ago.

Now Studio(or Render) is another beast entirely. I think that section is kicking their butts to tame or at least get to the promised featuresets (SSS, volumetric, particle shaders) that they promoted years ago. I also think it hampers developemnt on the Animation side. I use Maya and its a beast to use with its weightmaps, seemingly having to have a day or a person dedicated to getting a highres model to look right but Messiah doesn't have this burden.

I am under the assumption that Alias has a solution to weightmaps in maya but you jusy gonna have to pay for it in maya 7.5 or 8.0 as tools for the application are winding down to what people need, but I digress. PMG can't fall behind in the new tools category because they won't ppl to buy/upgrade but they probably competing with their bug fixes.

I think everbody's argument is valid just hopefully something works out.

Leebre

08-22-2005, 04:28 PM

Paul,
You make some valid points, but pros don't just materialize out of the ether. They grow from the soil of the amateures. The amateurs, the students, the dabblers and the newcomers are the ones who are not locked into using a specific workflow dictated by their employer. If they can come into a production house doing exceptional work with a certain package, that will carry a lot of weight in helping that software get its foot in the door. Likewise with freelancers trying to land jobs: "What...you don't use Maya/Max/etc.? I don't think I'll hire you." But if you've got outstanding examples to show, it's not going to matter that you aren't using Maya.

If you don't bother to saturate the soil with nutrients but only give it to the already grown trees it won't be long before you've got a handful of really old trees and a whole lot of useless dirt.

But I've qualified my statements before: This is assuming pmG actually cares about having a user base. They may have no further aspirations beyond providing for their inner circle of privileged users (essentially, remaining an in-house tool) and making a few extra bucks here and there just for the novelty of it by letting us feed off their table scraps. And if that's the case, so be it. It would be nice to know though!

And pmG DOES listen to even us lowly amateurs. The .a update included the awesome box controller stuff, which, while really was just a fully-reailzed implementation of existing features, was still a response to user requests.

I bellyache because I care! :D

stooch

08-22-2005, 04:38 PM

and ill say it again, man i got a sweet rig, its way better then anything ive setup in maya with all the armatures and expressions, that clownfish rig is incredible as well, practically animating itself. So ive spent all this time learning this program and getting a rig that im just stoked about, it hurts to realize that all this work might end going to waste...

Julez4001

08-22-2005, 04:41 PM

I don't think it going to waste, but will admit that while folks like my demoreel, they definitely going .."do you know Maya just as well as you know messiah?"

XSI wasn't really on the map unless you were in South California or Canada.

PaulNewman

08-22-2005, 04:56 PM

Leebert,

You make some very good points and I agree with you fully. The point I was trying to make, and probably did not come across as clearly, is that many people (myself included) who are professional CG artists can't use messiah professionally because of these mentioned issues. We end up being amateurs and dabblers experimenting with messiah but never really breaking through to use it in a real job. When the crunch comes to make the choices, I end up going with the other tools and messiah gets another skip (despite my desire to see the red USB dongle glow again). This is of course just as true for experienced users as well as beginners, students, whoever. The point is when the decision for a tool is made and messiah is too cumbersome, unreliable, under-featured, etc. and the user chooses another app, then messiah does not score, messiah is not talked about, messiah does not get front page recognition or a mention in a credit roll.

Until pmG releases messiah in a state that is production worthy in my studio I'll remain a dabbler.

Leebre

08-22-2005, 05:17 PM

Ahh. Paul, you and I are exactly of the same mindset.

BTW, love your organic tomato sauces and all the money you donate to charities. Har Har. Bet you never get those kinds of jokes, do you?

stooch

08-22-2005, 05:20 PM

So with all this general discontent on the forums, one would expect a PMG rep to speak up at some point. The fact that no one spoke up yet, is rather disheartening, since this leads me to believe that they dont even bother checking this section...

Thats scary because this forum is really the best link we have to PMG... How else do they expect feedback from their users?

My Fault

08-22-2005, 05:45 PM

I feel really bad for any of the former AM users that dumped AM to work in messiah. This has the same vibe as that big exodus a few years back. Luckily Hash got more involved with their user base and are back with a much more solid release. Hopefully Fred or Lyle chime in soon to qeull any fears and maybe give us some sort of roadmap for where messiah is going.

PaulNewman

08-22-2005, 05:46 PM

Ahh. Paul, you and I are exactly of the same mindset.

BTW, love your organic tomato sauces and all the money you donate to charities. Har Har. Bet you never get those kinds of jokes, do you?

:shrug:

uhhhh . . . I can't say you're the first Leebert. Usually people don't take me seriously, but I try.

DMack

08-22-2005, 06:51 PM

Yep, this thread needs to be stopped (not censored) in a positive way.....Fred, Lyle......Now would be a good time to chip in.

I am seriously hoping that we're all going to be embarrassed when they reveal the next update ;)
(Wow, I'm glad I'm not a 3D sw developer!)

stooch

08-22-2005, 07:07 PM

I am seriously hoping that we're all going to be embarrassed when they reveal the next update ;)
(Wow, I'm glad I'm not a 3D sw developer!)

Hoping!?! im PRAYING.

And im an atheist.

Labuzz

08-22-2005, 07:12 PM

yep it's really time now...Lyle...:rolleyes:

ThomasHelzle

08-22-2005, 09:24 PM

I don't think I will be embarrassed when a new and maybe cool version comes up.
The problems we are talking about here exist, it isn't just being moody.
I really try to only make valid points, not rant for the heck of it.
I find it superb that this thread stays on a very high level of quite well thought out remarks.

I really want to have a software like what messiah was supposed to be.
I don't switch to XSI because I couldn't think of something better to do with my time as to start from scratch.

But if the users don't intensify the pressure on those ostrich-like-developers, I doubt they will ever change or wake up. They had all the time in the world to do that on their own IMO.

And sometimes I find it better if something goes down in flames to make room for a fresh start than endlessly running in circles if it just doesn't work out.

Cheers,

toonafish

08-22-2005, 09:40 PM

"errr... hello" said the little fish as he was trying to get the attention of all the big whales talking to eachother......"so I'm the only one still suffering from these redrawing issues.... ?"

ThomasHelzle

08-22-2005, 09:44 PM

OOOps - Server Hickup ;-)

ThomasHelzle

08-22-2005, 09:46 PM

It seems so, I haven't had any of those problems (while lots of others ;) ). First I had an older card that worked fine, then they fixed the OpenGL issues mostly and my new card (GeForce 6800GT softmodded to a Quadro 4000) also works nicely...

Sorry, can't help you. This is a case for the pmG support I fear...

SpikeWorx

08-22-2005, 10:21 PM

I agree that it´s the small things (existing features and bug fixes) that should be fixed before implementing new stuff.
There´re a couple of things that (still) don´t work or doesn´t work as expected.
That doesn´t leaves an inspiring confidence, at least not to new users.

Stabitlity and reliability is more important for me. And I prefer changes such as the upcoming enhancements of the transformation system (hope that´ll fix some problems) or other advancements of the basic foundadtion over any fancy feature implementation .
It´s always nice to have both, but bread and butter first :) .

Messiah is a very cool application, but sometimes it´s getting hard to compensate for the lack of documentation.
Without the community support, it would be even harder for me.
It´s not a buzzword software like Maya, for which you can find tons of resources.
It feels more like a lonesome island.
I´m Robinson, and I´m constantly fighting to survive, hoping that one day a ship appears on the horizon.
It´s nonetheless fun, the weather is fine and you regulary discover new things.
There´re just not enough books telling you about your discoveries.
The only one I can talk to is Friday... :D

PaulNewman

08-22-2005, 10:23 PM

I'm slipping back into lurker mode now. Will check in now and then to see how messiah is shaping up. Just so you know, there are some messiah-wannabe-pros out there, hoping, holding on, lurking, waiting for the chance to upgrade my messiah licence to to an awesome mainline tool.

So when the right moment of digital 3D rendered planetary alignment takes place (once in every few years or so) I'll join the choruses of praise and thanksgiving for the next messiah update.

Cheers and keep up the good work pmG :thumbsup:.

Cheers Thomas and other fellow messiah users. Your tenacity is praiseworthy. :thumbsup:

Julez4001

08-22-2005, 10:48 PM

Sorry Toonafish

I don't have a Quadro videocard to test that on. 'course I do remember a while back on the forum there was discussion on this..do a search on the "messiah" forum.

Julez4001

08-22-2005, 10:51 PM

my new card (GeForce 6800GT softmodded to a Quadro 4000) also works nicely...

Sorry, can't help you. This is a case for the pmG support I fear...

How's the card "soft" modifications holding up.
Have you tried Maya's hardware renderer with it?
I was thinking about going down the same path.

grzesiekj

08-22-2005, 11:02 PM

Hi.
Well, I was trying the new softbody collision...
all in all, it works much better, you still have to use proxy objects as the collision objects. - but thats fine, and faster. and I must say it HAS BEEN improved.

Have tried it just with some basic stuff, but it seems to work fine now.
Many thanks Fori for that. its much much more stable.

Since I dont use Messiah render - I dont have any comments for that.

As for the "using Messiah in the real world productions" - well, I have used it in pretty big films, so its not like a hobby toy, believe me ;)

G.

kvernon

08-22-2005, 11:06 PM

I know Fred is reading the thread as I type this, hopefully he and or pmG can help shed some light on all our concerns.

Till then, everyone can always go back in time to see a lot of pmG past,
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://projectmessiah.com

I'm like most of you, I just want to see this thing done right and shine for the rest of the community to adopt. I feel it's so close in overall scope. It's just all those little things that linger on and on and on.

-Kelly

Leonardo Vega

08-22-2005, 11:14 PM

Man this is very disheartening. For some time, I've seen Messiah as Cinema 4D's animation solution. And finally I'm in a position to buy it and after reading this thread, I'm totally disillusioned. Although I started getting wierd vibes when the manual would tell me to go to a certain spot, only to find that the feature was moved somewhere else. :shrug:

Seems like MotionBuilder is going to become the animation solution for me. There's no way I'll ever get into *buggy* software again. I spent years "dreaming" that animation:master would become a solid program, only to find that with every release the app never became more stable. I always had the impression that A:M had a rocky future. You always feltl that one day it will just get canned and your stuck with a broken app. I won't go through that again.

Man, what a bummer I was really digging this app too. Here is my official statement, unless a "big fish" buys out this "little fish", Messiah's future is dim. Unless they reinforce their production team, I see no other solution. I can't rest the future of my company on just a few people trying to deliver the goods. This app needs to get serious, needs proper management, customer service, quality control, etc.

I wish Newtek or Maxon would buys them out (or even Luxology).

My 2 cents...
Leo

fwtep

08-22-2005, 11:36 PM

Have I have reading this? Yes, I just can't believe what I'm reading, that's all. To have a thread about how we're ignoring users, when the thread itself started as an announcement of a free update is pegging the ol' irony meter at 100%.

OK, for each of you there are a couple of things (some might be bugs, some might be intentional workflow things) that you don't like. Some of thse may be old, some may be new. But the world is not ending. Every person has a change, bug or feature they'd like and "can't use this without it." In some instances this is understandable, in others, it's not (in my personal opinion). And example of something that's not fair is the complaining that Soft Bodies aren't great for full clothing. We never said it was, and in fact have been saying since the beginning that that's not what it's for; it's for things like jiggling fat, maybe for a big floppy hat, maybe for a cape, sails, flags, etc.

Each update (and for messiah:studio they've been FREE for four years) has had fixes and improvements. Maybe we haven't gotten to your favorite "peeve" yet, but keep in mind that your favorite probably isn't everyone else's. After all, virtually every bug fix is the result of a bug report, so fixing them has obviously helped some people. And there might be some things you dislike that other people love. For example, some people like the default zoom tool setting, others want to change it to match how LightWave does it.

As for what we're working on, what we're working on now is...messiah-- we don't stop working on messiah but sometimes things are quiet on this forum because there are basically six people in the company and your choice is constant posts here or software. We monitor the forums, but more often than not the questions are answered before we get the chance to reply (which is a good thing, by the way). I didn't want to reply to this thread earlier because I didn't want it to seem like we were trying to censor anything. (With any of the software packages it sure doesn't seem to take much to start a huge rant-fest. And yet the pros manage to use all of this "lousy" software to continue to make movies, commercials and TV shows that amaze us.)

Lastly, there's the question of "is it usable in production." I say definitely yes. Some of you might say "no." It really depends on what you're doing. I used it for my movie, Taron's used it on several movies, and Taron, Ron and I recently used it for a two minute full CG animated short (the teaser for a feature) that's been making tremendous headway at the studios (hopefully there'll be big news on this soon). Others are using it in production too, but I won't presume to speak for them. Messiah is not perfect for everything, nor is Maya, Max, LightWave, etc. If one of those was, it would be the only software out there. But messiah is the best software for character animation that I've ever used, and I find the renderer to be significantly easier to use than LightWave's (which is often praised for its ease-of-use).

Fred

Julez4001

08-22-2005, 11:42 PM

If you need messiah as an animation solution I think you have your app of choice, its the renderer thats not complete, and if its motionbuilder you going for..go ahead and get maya instead ..they already got thier Ik system inside of Maya 7.0.. Its just a matter of time until MB is no more and all its internals are part of the "big fish" Maya.

grzesiekj

08-22-2005, 11:42 PM

Vegabros,
I have been using Messiah(animate) for at least 5 years now, and I have different impressions.
the program seem to be pretty versatile to all my character animation needs, as well for some simulations.(mainly softbody - wich is very fast but not accurate)
I was able to deliver some character animation for film, commercials, and independent short films projects using Messiah animate. I have to agree the manual and doc's are somewhat "not complete" but hey, you have to find your way around on your own, and thats fine with me.

Im using Maya, Lightwave, XSI for my professional work now, so I can compare the features.
I sitll think that for some projects - Messiah is still pretty good and very fast solution.

The Cinema 4D connection maybe still not mature (or just not working) and IT IS PMG's fault.
Using Point Oven - I have been able to animate in messiah and transfer all my animation to Lightwave and Max to render it out.

The PMG team is small, they are trying their best, and I think they will try even harder while XSi FOundation is out for 500 $

my 2 cents ;)

G.

Leonardo Vega

08-23-2005, 02:48 AM

Just for the record, I don't speak from experience here. Nor have I experienced any bugs really. I was simply reflecting on this thread. The impression I got was that this app was buggy and the support for it was poor. But I have zero experience using Messiah.

My only observation was the documentation errors.

Julez: Good point about the big fish... Alias is definitely messing up good ol' motionbuilder. Last I heard the FBX plugin has been aliasized.

fwtep: I'm sure everyone appreciates the free updates :) I do and I don't even own it lol. But I think from what I can see, the problem is not in the "personal" corrections but in actually software flaws. For example, I own Cinema 4D and supposedly Messiah is supposed to work as a plugin and have a direct connection with C4D. Now if I were to have bought this app and then found out the connection was "buggy" and that I needed 3rd party plugins to get it to work, it would be a bummer for me. If you could get Messiah to connect *well* with other apps without use of 3rd party plugins, you would have a winner :) I know you're a small team, so we don't ask for super improvements. Just make sure what already exists is stable. And again, I haven't noticed anything aside from the bad connection with C4D.

Btw, thanks for replying to the thread. Please never hesitate to comment.

grzesiekj: Is the connection with LW very stable? or do you find yourself using Point-Oven?

- Leo

Leebre

08-23-2005, 03:48 AM

Hey Fred, hope you're not taking all of this too personally. I know our complaints stick out like sore thumbs, but if you'll take a second look you'll see that nearly every one of us qualify our grumblings by stating that we still think the software is genius, or that features x, y, and z are amazing, etc. I certainly don't recall anyone using the term "lousy".

For the most part, I don't think we are being nit-picky, each with our own personal list of pet-peeves. There is a core set of issues that get brought up across the board nearly every day here. If every newcomer bumps up against the same set of problems I hardly see how that is being ungrateful or unreasonable on our part. It's not like we choose to run up against these problems on purpose.

I'm really glad that a core group of people who are intimately involved with the software are producing amazing, production-quality work. But wouldn't you like lots of people doing as such with messiah? Aren't you guys interested in building a user base that has a lot of depth? Isn't it a desirable thing to have lots of coders excited about writing plug-ins with your api? Or what about the benefits of having a subsection of end users dispersing messiah-focused learning material and tutorials across the net?

I don't think there was a single one of us here who posted with the malicious intent of bashing pmG. We did it because we wanted/want messiah to be the best.

SpikeWorx

08-23-2005, 04:05 AM

Just to make it clear, I´m not complaining about Messiah.
I like it, otherwise I wouldn´t use it.
I think the price performance ratio is nearly unrivaled ATM.

It´s just that in my personal priority list, bug fixes, reliability, practical usefulness and existing features cleanup are more important than uber cool new fluid systems or similar stuff. That does not mean Messiah is rather buggy. Sorry for wrong impression.
No more than other software I use, sometimes even remarkably less (compared to LW for example. Hey, but that´s no compliment at all, is it? :scream: ).
And I didn´t want to imply Messiah`s features are not usable. Heck, no.
But Thomas is, IMO, right about his statement that some things are :applause::love::buttrock::bowdown: , and some are... well, maybe :sad::argh::cry::banghead:. Of course, it also depends on personal preferences, edit sphere e.g. ;)

DMack

08-23-2005, 08:10 AM

Leonardo,

For all the grumbles, Animate is still a fantastic CA tool. Personally I find it FAR less buggy than LW, far faster, and certain areas (experssions, armatures and set-up mode) to be far more intuative. I am doing stuff in Animate that I, personally, simply couldn't do in LW.

There are some frustrations, highlighted in this thread, but ALL sw will have these. It really comes down to your faith in their longer term development. For this reason, I would quite like PMG to state a basic roadmap and let us know some features that they are working on (not top secret ones, just some basic ones).

David

svintaj

08-23-2005, 10:00 AM

Each update (and for messiah:studio they've been FREE for four years) has had fixes and improvements.

That's because PMG have to, cause PMG haven't yet delivered the product we paid for!
And we're still waiting... :deal:

Lastly, there's the question of "is it usable in production." I say definitely yes. Some of you might say "no." It really depends on what you're doing. I used it for my movie, Taron's used it on several movies, and Taron, Ron and I recently used it for a two minute full CG animated short (the teaser for a feature) that's been making tremendous headway at the studios

If you guys at GMG did some tweak in the software during these productions to solve problems, you should be able to guess the frustration we other users can feel, we can't tweak the source.

/ Svante

lightwolf

08-23-2005, 10:11 AM

Not to pile on but I'm sure there are plenty of somewhat silent(and reasonably patient) owners of the pmg product that have been there since day one and are still waiting for features such as the renderer to work properly with subd's.

Count me in... I got our licenses at Siggraph 2001 I think it was ... still waiting for develop...

And I haven't used it _once_ in production...

Cheers,
Mike - back to lurk mode ;)

toonafish

08-23-2005, 11:38 AM

Thanks Thomas and Julez, I think I'll wait untill the next update. Last time I tried to solve this I got some help from pmG support, but the problem persisted.

ThomasHelzle

08-23-2005, 03:40 PM

Julez: I don't have maya.
In XSI 4.2, I couldn't see any difference,
I was just too lazy to revert to the unmodified driver.

Cheers,

ThomasHelzle

08-23-2005, 05:09 PM

Fred: Thanks for that reasonable reply.

But exactly that kind of thinking didn't lead us anywhere for the last 5 years:
"It works for us, so why are you complaining?"
Sure did you do user driven updates, but man did you guys need to be dragged to them at the nose. Where is that spirit of continuous self improvement without the need for everything in three time three copies? It feels more like a Vogon kind of workflow to me.

How often do we need to ask for Search and Replace in Expressions? The counter must be in the thousands...

And sorry if I'm not too grateful: That updates are free for four years now is the only thing that keeps pmG out of court. It isn't because you are such good people (see Animate), but because you still haven't delivered what you sold 2000. If messiah would have been delivered in fall 2000 like advertised or even 2001 and would have improved from there, man would we be happy to pay for updates...

First you sold stuff you couldn't deliver, painting biiiig images on the wall.
Then you started to go in the opposite direction and now the users don't have the slightest idea what is going on at all.
Why on earth isn't it possible to shed some light on what is cooking? We don't ask for the huge trade secrets stuff, but come on: "We're working on messiah" - that isn't even lame.Add Lyles favorite: "We'll let you know" to it and off you go to your own little autistic world.

The only thing that keeps me at this hole topic is, that I just reject to let you guys get away with this that easy. Be it the Siggraph 2000 deal including the VaporMac version, Autorig, Python, Walker or the Max, XSI and Cinema4D plugins.

I know we will never agree.

Cheers.

fwtep

08-23-2005, 06:32 PM

It isn't because you are such good people (see Animate), but because you still haven't delivered what you sold 2000.What feature that was advertised in 2000 hasn't been delivered? The only thing I know of is Develop, and at least that has nothing to do with using messiah in production.

If you guys at GMG did some tweak in the software during these productions to solve problems, you should be able to guess the frustration we other users can feel, we can't tweak the source.The only tweak, if you want to call it that, is that for the short film Taron finished up his Basic Shader. However:

a) We could have easily done the project without it. Taron, for convenience, decided to use this project as the beta for it.

b) That shader was immediately released to the public (in fact, before the project was finished).

c) It was a free bonus, not a previously announced feature.

Thomas likes to say that my attitude is (and I'm paraphrasing here) "the software is fine and there's no need to add features." To a certain extent he's right, though it depends on the project. There's always room for new features and improvements, but, and this is a big "but" to me, you can still do amazing work with it. I'm sure they would have loved new features like Armatures (to give just one example) back when the Jimmy Neutron film was in production, but they did a damn fine job anyway. To put it another way, I bristle at the attitude that "without Develop" or "without a better Edit Sphere" the program is unusable for production. ALL software is constantly improved and has quirks, bugs, work-arounds, etc. but it doesn't stop productions from being made.

By the way, I'm not a programmer, so if you don't agree with me, don't worry. And it's not like I don't make feature suggestions, because I do; I just feel that the software can do amazing things already and it hasn't been fully exploited by anyone (even by me).

PS: One of the characters from the short film is on our "Resources" page.

Fred

My Fault

08-23-2005, 06:57 PM

By the way, I'm not a programmer, so if you don't agree with me, don't worry. And it's not like I don't make feature suggestions, because I do; I just feel that the software can do amazing things already and it hasn't been fully exploited by anyone (even by me).

When oh when will somebody sit down and video tape Taron running through one of his little projects? I swear I would love to see that. Just let him loose for an hour, don't even bother editing it. I am sure we could learn a ton watching him, warts and all. I still think a few hours of video ofTaron doing a small project, freely available on your site, would sell a ton of copies and help many of us better learn some of the more arcane parts of messiah.

BTW, that new character looked great Fred, hopefully you will show more soon!

Leonardo Vega

08-23-2005, 06:59 PM

fwtep: Can you shed some light on the "host connection" feature using Cinema 4D? I feel like this isn't being addressed yet the program advertises a C4D connection. I'm a C4D user and I've been holding out waiting for a stable connection.

I do agree that pmg should be more public about it's latest work. Take me for example, I have no clue whether or not Messiah will ever work with C4D directly. There's no info on the website or anything to reassure me it's being worked on. For all I know, pmg might dump support for C4D lol. So as a possible buyer I'm concerned.

And again, thanks for replying :)

- Leo

ThomasHelzle

08-23-2005, 07:04 PM

What feature that was advertised in 2000 hasn't been delivered? The only thing I know of is Develop, and at least that has nothing to do with using messiah in production.
Well, I can only recommend reading some old news ;)
I can compile a full list if needed, but I am sure we would disagree over the term "delivered" and "needed in production".
Do you count something as delivered if it "exists" or if it "works"?

Cheers,

fwtep

08-23-2005, 07:05 PM

"My Fault" I'll be doing a video with Taron soon; just have to work out the schedule and material.

"Vegabros" Ron is looking into the C4D issue. I don't know the details but I'll post here as soon as there's info. I know that sounds like political-speak, you know, not saying anything at all, but it really IS a case of "it won't be ready until it's ready," due to the nature of the issues.

Fred

ThomasHelzle

08-23-2005, 07:09 PM

Ron is looking into the C4D issue
Fred: could you look at Max too? It doesn't work either.

Thanks!

fwtep

08-23-2005, 07:17 PM

Well, I can only recommend reading some old news ;)
I can compile a full list if needed, but I am sure we would disagree over the term "delivered" and "needed in production".
Do you count something as delivered if it "exists" or if it "works"?

Cheers,I consider it delivered if it exists and is usable. By "usable" I mean just that-- usable-- not "perfect" or "world's greatest." For example, the Edit Sphere is definitely usable. Could it be better? Yes. Will it be better? Yes. But to say it's not usable would be absolutely wrong. And just to remind you, I'm talking about what was said in 2000 (because that's what you said), so if you have a gripe about more recently announced features that's another issue.

Fred

PS: By the way, this conversation illustrates why we tend to not want to post on subjects like "roadmaps" and things like that. As soon as we make one peep it turns into a huge thread and if we simply stop posting again so we can get back to work then we get accused of ignoring people again. I've got a little bit of free time today though. :-)

Leonardo Vega

08-23-2005, 07:43 PM

fwtep: I've enjoyed using the Messiah very much. I enjoy how easy it is to use the bones, rig, and set up custom icons for easy animation. I think the only problem is it's connection to other apps.

Now as far as documentation, that is also a problem area. A lot of us are not professionals or good scripters, so we can use help lol.

Also, is Animate fading away in sight of Studio? I noticed in the upgrade pricing, there is no Messiah Animate v4 - v5 price, just Messiah Animte to Messiah Studio.

IMHO, I think pmg should have stuck with just Messiah Animate. I fear Studio and the rendering will eat up too much time. Just my opinion.

Thanks again!

DMack

08-23-2005, 07:59 PM

IMHO, I think pmg should have stuck with just Messiah Animate. I fear Studio and the rendering will eat up too much time. Just my opinion.

Thanks again!

I couldn't agree more. It's a relatively small dev team (some who seem to find time to do movies aswell???) and IMO trying to develop two areas (render and animate) that need sooooo much focus is not easy/possible. I just wish that all that effort put into the renderer had gone into making the animation capabilities jaw dropping. This way, I have no doubt that they could be the top dog in the industry for CA. I mean....are they really going to have time to do good cloth...hair....instancing.....volumetrics....the list goes on...and look at the competition...Luxology with how many coders???, Maxwell, MR....the list goes on. I just wish they could focus ALL their time developing Animate and it's connection to various apps (modo201? - what an opportunity!). With such a small dev team, specialisation is the ONLY way IMO to survive and thrive in the proffesional sector at least.

SpikeWorx

08-23-2005, 08:05 PM

PS: By the way, this conversation illustrates why we tend to not want to post on subjects like "roadmaps" and things like that. As soon as we make one peep it turns into a huge thread and if we simply stop posting again so we can get back to work then we get accused of ignoring people again. I've got a little bit of free time today though. :-)
That´s a two edged sword. On the one hand, you´re right that this usually turns into speculation and trouble (if in the end it doesn´t lifts up to the expectations), but on the other hand being silent could be as much akward, if not more.
A user who doesn´t have any clue about the products future and plans could feel doubtful and look elsewhere. Assurance, and even if it´s only psychological, is an important factor these days in a fast moving society.
I think a middle course is the best way :)

DMack

08-23-2005, 08:11 PM

I agree. A little more info would be very welcome.

Leonardo Vega

08-23-2005, 08:21 PM

I just hope Messiah is not out to get the overall-packages. Look at BodyPaint and zBrush (even Modo). These apps are so successful because they do one thing and they do it AWESOME. You don't see neither of these apps trying to add "character animation" capabilities. I think Messiah's niche is in character animation. But if they slow down to work on the renderer, then others catch up (XSI has awesome character animation abilities). And when the others catch up, then people ask themselves... "Why do I need messiah?".

So even though they now offer a renderer. the reality is most people already have an app that does the rendering. Most people use Messiah as a complimentary app to an already existing one.

I don't see it being profitable for pmg nor advantageous for end users. And like DMack stated, since pmg is a small company, why set such aggressive goals? Learn from Animation Master. They used to have the best animation tools (a long time ago, in the days of Infinity 3D). But instead of concentrating on character animation, they kept adding other things. So there is SO much added that they can't keep up. Now they are sub-par and only attract small crowds. It's price and semi-simplicity are it's only main advantages (unless you love splines).

The point is, if you are a small company, you won't survive unless you have something the big fish don't. With the attention to a brand new renderer and less on character animation, what might happen is that you will begin to offer "ok" stuff. Make your focus inovating character animation, making it rock solid and stay one step on top of the competition.

My 4 cents... lol
Leo

Julez4001

08-23-2005, 08:50 PM

All good points, maybe PMG should buy PointOven or hire Mark Wilson, totally integrate that plugin and work on just badass character tools and fix previous character bugs.
I would also like to be import bones to and fro from the big boy apps, even more robust pose-armature system, etc, etc. With renderman for Maya out.. the render battle is gonna be hardpress. Not saying that they should drop M:R, just more M:A loving first.

Just babblling, back to your schedule ranting ....

rush123

08-23-2005, 08:50 PM

Fred,

Taron mentioned (in the Anisotropic thread) that the “Noisette” shader had been updated, are there any other updates/changes that perhaps weren’t documented in the “WhatsNew2.2b_5.2b.htm”?

Thanks

ThomasHelzle

08-23-2005, 09:11 PM

vegabros: very well said.
But as much as I agree, I don't think it is possible/useful at this state to drop the renderer, although a communicated decision to concentrate on animation for a while wouldn't hurt for sure.

As soon as we make one peep it turns into a huge thread....

Fred: This impression may be true from your side as a result of how messiah developed over the years, where pmG got itself into a very defensive position.
I had a very different experience when I did my AoN shaders. I got so much support here on the forum playing it fully open and so much positive energy, that this alone kept me going. Showing things, getting direct feedback and improving the software based on that made it one of the most enjoyable times in all my life. My second shader collection started out the same, but then I did hit the "pmG-wall" since I needed "deeper" SDK functions and the energy and fun died away.

Keep the conversation alive, it is very rewarding. Hiding in the cabinet doesn't work. There is so much more to win than to loose.

Best regards,

AAAron

08-23-2005, 09:13 PM

I think the renderer kicks ass! :thumbsup: But I can see that no multipass and no hair/fur stops people from using it for pro CA. It fit´s me very well, but still if I want to sniff in to the 3d dept. of my work I have to learn XSI too.

AAAron

08-23-2005, 09:17 PM

I had a very different experience when I did my AoN shaders. I got so much support here on the forum playing it fully open and so much positive energy, that this alone kept me going. Showing things, getting direct feedback and improving the software based on that made it one of the most enjoyable times in all my life. My second shader collection started out the same, but then I did hit the "pmG-wall" since I needed "deeper" SDK functions and the energy and fun died away.

Keep the conversation alive, it is very rewarding. Hiding in the cabinet doesn't work. There is so much more to win than to loose.

Yes, look at the Nevercenter team, I don´t think I´ve ever seen a forum so live and full of enthusiastic (sometimes a bit overly though) members as on silo3d.com

kvernon

08-24-2005, 12:22 AM

I've got a question... When did messiah:studio make it out of beta? I remember hearing beta a long time ago, but I never heard it was officially released. Would the official release been 1.0?

Towards Thomas, I have to agree with him. If you check pmG marketing towards the project:messiah plugin and the messiah:animate | messiah:studio, you'll find many things that hadn't been taken care of towards what was promissed/promoted.

Even though I don't own Softimage/XSI or even a MAC, I do recall those were things that were stated to be supported. I even recall a PR release of saying it's going to support OSX when OSX was just nearing completion. Of course, you can do so now for SoftImage/XSI through pointoven, but it was one of those items that was stated and somehow slipped off of the marketing. Of course these are just two items as examples. Like Thomas stated there are more.

Please finish messiah:studio... you're our only hope.

Sincerely,

Kelly

fwtep

08-24-2005, 12:31 AM

This impression may be true from your side as a result of how messiah developed over the years, where pmG got itself into a very defensive position.
I had a very different experience when I did my AoN shaders. I got so much support here on the forum playing it fully open and so much positive energy, that this alone kept me going. Showing things, getting direct feedback and improving the software based on that made it one of the most enjoyable times in all my life. No offense Thomas, but creating and supporting a 3D procedural shader is not quite the same as creating something like messiah (which was done with only two more people). Plus your user base isn't nearly as big, so there's a lot less for you to deal with. Plus you're still at version 1.0, so what improvements and new features have there been? And what's your roadmap for AoN? Surely you're not trying to say we're the only ones who should present the roadmap, are you?

Now, as far as you and messiah, we've put in about half a dozen or dozen things that you've demanded (er, "requested"). Each of those was one of your "messiah is nothing unless it has this (or this is fixed), and all I'm asking is this." But after each one, lo and behold there was *another* thing that made messiah unusable, and each time you acted like we *never* listen to you. By the way, you're not a huge studio, you're a one-man operation, and despite your implication that we ignore people (presumably as being less important than studios), the facts don't bear that out.

Fred

Julez4001

08-24-2005, 02:54 AM

Thomas sets up a pretty punt over the net and "BAM!" Fred have served a wicked backhand!
The ball is now back in Thomas 's court as the crowd holds its breath.

Julian
The Online Instigator
:rolleyes: :thumbsup:

Leonardo Vega

08-24-2005, 04:13 AM

We're getting no where like this.

I feel Messiah is awesome and I really want to try it out with Cinema 4D. But there are some issues that need to be addressed. So what did I do? I waited lol. Guys, if you feel it's unusable, then don't buy it *yet*. I haven't, precisely because of the bad connection with C4D (and I have zero way of testing out the C4D - Messiah - C4D pipeline since I can't use point-oven with Messiah demo, so I have to wait until Messiah does it by itself). No one is forcing us to buy it. I do understand that some of us have projects and we NEED a solution. If Messiah can fit the bill buy it. But the program is super and I don't want to discourage the guys at pmg who are working hard.

Plus, I think their upgrade pricing is good (don't change it! please... Maxon has bad upgrade pricing).

Here's what I think we should do: Open up a thread and post just the stuff that needs to be fixed (stuff that was promised but came out buggy instead), no comments or negative talk, just the facts. Open a different one for suggestions (if there isn't one already... I forgot). And then have one for undocumented stuff (which already exists and was a super idea).

Now, fwtep or anyone from pmg, if possible... check out those threads whenever possible and just keep us up to date with what's being fixed or addressed. Because if it wasn't for your reply to my message, to date I would be sitting in the dark wondering about the C4D connection. And it's been years lol I gave up and now I've returned hoping for a stable connection, but well.. I guess not yet lol. But the point is people get anxious when they have no clue if certain bugs aren't being addressed.

And remember focus on *inovating* character animation. Work on the renderer if you want, but don't concetrate on it. And your videos are nice, but maybe work on making more tutorials. Show us cool tricks and stuff. You have to show the public why Messiah is key in a studio pipeline.

On that note, keep up the good work. I look forward to adding this app to my pipeline. This is my last post on this thread, unless someone talks about my mama! :) I just feel there is too much negativity now.

Later,
Leo

DMack

08-24-2005, 09:43 AM

You know, I gave this some thought....and he strength of the complaints are a compliment in a way (ok bare with me ;) ). If the sw was horribly buggy and useless, no-one would give a damn about it and simply move on. However this is NOT the case. It has some bugs and some areas that need more work, some much needed features (dyna_PIP!!!) and a lot of work on the docs .....but other than that it is a seriously good (and stable IMO) app...and I think it's for this reason that the frustration starts to appear. People WANT to use it because it shows such promise...but then they feel let down by certain areas...and that IS frustrating....So Fred, Lyle etc, this isn't venting for the sake of it....there really is a strong desire IMO to see Animate (and OK, probably render, through gritted teeth) really excel....Help us stay positive - let us know that you're working on a fix for this bug or that bug etc. And it wouldn't hurt to say that you're working on implementing this feature(not top secret ones....basics...like Dynamic parenting in place ;)

I completely agree with vegabros idea of the threads for bug fix requests and feature requests....and people...please don't ramble or vent on them....just simple 'this feature doesn't work' and 'I want this feature' (eg We want Dynamic Parent In Place!!)
PS WOW how many times did I get that request for Dynamic Parenting in Place?

Robken

08-24-2005, 10:44 AM

DMACK, you make me wanna go out and buy some sort of dyna_PIP device...

OT: I agree that PMG is rather quiet about what they're doing. and some info to the community wouldn't hurt.
also, taking a defensive position as a company doesn't help the 'professional appearance' of that company. Don't defend yourself, prove the nay-sayers wrong. I too am hoping for various bugfixes and tweaks here and there.

I'd just like to know what to expect in the near future, and i'm a big by-stander of getting the animate-part of the software working solid. and also docs...we gotta have docs.

biliousfrog

08-24-2005, 11:21 AM

blimey, Messiah's been updated has it.....will I bother downloading it? No, I can't see the point really. I still don't feel like I've got the app that I paid for &, as a Lightwave user, I think that the version 9 update will render Messiah useless for me. To be honest I've not really used it. I tried really hard to get my head round the interface, the quirks & the documentation for a couple of months but I found it SOOOO difficult to use. Admittedly I didn't play with the animation tools much, the main draw for me was the render section. The claims that it has a very easy to use render section are just rediculous.....a powerful one, maybe but easy to use? I was impressed with the sub-pixel displacement but if all of the surfaces look like coloured aluminium it's not very useful.

The animation tools....I don't do much character animation so Auto-rig was going to be my life saver......any news on that yet?

So, if anyone wants Messiah Studio Workstation get in touch.

ThomasHelzle

08-24-2005, 11:24 AM

No offense Thomas, but creating and supporting a 3D procedural shader is not quite the same as creating something like messiah (which was done with only two more people). Plus your user base isn't nearly as big, so there's a lot less for you to deal with. Plus you're still at version 1.0, so what improvements and new features have there been? And what's your roadmap for AoN? Surely you're not trying to say we're the only ones who should present the roadmap, are you?

Now, as far as you and messiah, we've put in about half a dozen or dozen things that you've demanded (er, "requested"). Each of those was one of your "messiah is nothing unless it has this (or this is fixed), and all I'm asking is this." But after each one, lo and behold there was *another* thing that made messiah unusable, and each time you acted like we *never* listen to you. By the way, you're not a huge studio, you're a one-man operation, and despite your implication that we ignore people (presumably as being less important than studios), the facts don't bear that out.

Fred

Fred, you mix up people now - I'm not the one with the bit about big studios - but that is understandable from a thread like this ;)

You are completely right. I only develop shaders since I know that I can do that in the spare time I have for it in an appropriate way. Also, I'm not the worlds greatest programmer, just a self educated 3D user who codes if something is missing.
I only had one bug report so far and it wasn't related to my shaders, but to changes in the messiah texture map node that crashes on front projection without an image loaded.
I would love to give more support but there was almost no need for it yet - it seems my docs cover that part nicely.
I give tons of support to users on this board but mostly for things unrelated to my shaders.
And I have a roadmap that I don't like the slightest: AoN:studio will stay at the current, fully working and so far bugfree state until messiahs renderer improves in a way that investing more time makes sense again - read: is actually used by people.
Until then, I develop AoN:XSI.

For the second point, we're at the question of quality again: You would be right if I would be asking for esoteric, only needed-by-me things. But that wasn't the case yet AFAIK.
I was thankful that Lyle did the color selector, but there wasn't one in the first place.

If a huge percentage of functions in the SDK is simply doing nothing, what you find out after hours of making sure it isn't your own fault, you don't rave about when one or two of them are fixed. I even reduced my request to "just mark the ones that don't work in the header"...

Another example: You can't create importers for messiah since you can't create points, edges or polygons with the SDK. Reason?: "messiah is no modeler". Outch.

There are many other such areas where users are unable to create what they may need for their project.
IMO, you simply need a certain "depth" in a SDK to start with, to create plugins in a reasonable time and to not hit the wall every five minutes.

My point with reiterating this is: The requests you get depend on what you deliver.
And I don't feel bad for taking only a bite the size I can swallow.
I never told pmG to create such a massive tool if they can't handle it or advertise non-existing features, therefore I'm not too willing to accept that "small company" bit that is used way too often IMO.

As long as I use messiah, I'm mostly asking for the super basic stuff. Things like the classical save shortcut, buttons with a meaning etc.

If you keep a clean house, nobody asks for a broom.
If you lead with clever ideas, if your software shows intelligent approaches and if an area that is worked on in a patch really shines afterwards, not only iterates 0.1% upwards, you have less trouble and get requests of much better quality.

BTW. We can stop, delete or otherwise end this thread at any time.
While I personally find it interesting how many people basically all say/ask for the same very reasonable things, but still get only defensive answers from pmG, I know that others feel it being inappropriate to discuss things like this.

Also, I'm not under the impression that this leads us anywhere anyway since this would need a change of mind and habits at pmGs part.
From the statistics so far, that will not happen.
I 80% accepted that.
I'm working on the remaining 20%. :)

Cheers,

fwtep

08-24-2005, 06:58 PM

While I personally find it interesting how many people basically all say/ask for the same very reasonable things, but still get only defensive answers from pmG,See? This is precicely what the problem is with the way the comments are posted and why we prefer not to jump in on the conversation: There's no way to answer without it coming across as defensive, since the only way NOT to appear defensive is to say "you're all correct, it sucks."

And by the way, it's not helpful to make wild claims ("you haven't delivered what was promised back in 2000") and then not be able to back them up. It's rude to us and deceitful to other readers. Do you realize that when you make comments like that you drive people away and that has a direct impact on the sale of your shaders that you worked so hard on? (And yet you say *we're* bad businessmen?) The average reader and newbie doesn't know you and your relationship with us (which has been fruitful) and that your posts aren't out of a hatred of messiah. We know your online personality but others don't.

And lastly, the things you mentioned in this last post were all SDK/API related. I'm not a programmer, nor are most people, and I just use the program as-is. So while it might be nice for you and other programmers to have those SDK things addressed, they don't affect the normal user, which is what I thought this conversation was about since we were talking about features and tools and what's been promised/delivered.

Darn, one more last thing: I'd like to ask people to remember what's opinion and what's fact. To say, for example, "The Edit Sphere is terrible and unusable" is an opinion, not a fact. To say "messiah needs paintable weightmaps" is an opinion. I see a LOT of opinions here whose speakers think are facts and must be acted upon by us immediately. To be worked up over something in the program that doesn't work exactly the way YOU want it isn't fair to us or to other users. Everyone has their opinion and no one person's opinion is more correct than another's. Except mine, of course. ;)

Fred