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mdunakin
08-12-2005, 07:33 AM
Only a little 206,834 polies!
My memory problems just never stop.
And yes, tomorrow I'll be sending them (Vue) my collection of screen shots
like this one that show I was no where NEAR being out of memory.

As you can see in this sample scene, that I only had one little hill with one little tree.
But, as usual, the longer I played with Vue, making different adjustments
as I move along testing things out, the closer it gets to crashing.
Which is what it does every time and THIS time I can prove that
I didn't even have a zillion objects in the scene!

http://www.md-arts.com/Out_Of_Memory_01.jpg

Only 20 seconds and all I was doing was making a little preview
down at the bottom of the screen to test out my animation.
It always works fine at first and then slowly but surely gets closer and closer
to crashing with the same type of error messages of out of memory
when I'm not even remotely close to running out.

One little tree animation.
That's all!

Can't wait to send this screen shot in LOL

Anyway, time to reboot, for the forth time tonight with this same animation.

.....................md :(
BTW, the tree growing and blowing in the wind animation,
was prtty cool, even with these idiot problems.


.

WillBellJr
08-12-2005, 02:05 PM
Only a little 206,834 polies!
My memory problems just never stop.
And yes, tomorrow I'll be sending them (Vue) my collection of screen shots
like this one that show I was no where NEAR being out of memory.

As you can see in this sample scene, that I only had one little hill with one little tree.
But, as usual, the longer I played with Vue, making different adjustments
as I move along testing things out, the closer it gets to crashing.
Which is what it does every time and THIS time I can prove that
I didn't even have a zillion objects in the scene!

http://www.md-arts.com/Out_Of_Memory_01.jpg

Only 20 seconds and all I was doing was making a little preview
down at the bottom of the screen to test out my animation.
It always works fine at first and then slowly but surely gets closer and closer
to crashing with the same type of error messages of out of memory
when I'm not even remotely close to running out.

One little tree animation.
That's all!

Can't wait to send this screen shot in LOL

Anyway, time to reboot, for the forth time tonight with this same animation.

.....................md :(
BTW, the tree growing and blowing in the wind animation,
was prtty cool, even with these idiot problems.


.

And this is the other reason why I haven't upgraded yet (my first reason was I can't get textured Lightwave objects into V5i (if at all) without some form of hair pulling)

Vue5 just seems a little soft to me - not solid enough for my money right now - not even sure if I want it when I decide to upgrade my Lightwave package...

DigReal
08-12-2005, 02:12 PM
What patch build are you running, Mark? I can't remember the number, but I stopped getting OOM errors with the beta patch prior to 859. Did a fairly large project for a client on it, too. No crashes. Instead of the OOM error, I would get a warning about resources running low. The warning would give me a chance to save and exit Vue, then open again. Didn't need to reboot anymore, either. Actually, build 859 seems to handle memory even better, but since that's where all the trouble started, I won't recommend that one. For once, I've managed to avoid trouble, so I keep using it.

mdunakin
08-12-2005, 06:46 PM
I'm using:
Version: 5.08-02
Build: 277859
And this was after really more then four times of having to reboot.
At first I had IE running while I was waiting around for the preview thingy to finish.
But then after a couple of crashes I stopped doing that and just watched TV.
So, inotherwords, all the rest of the times I used Vue last night, there was nothing else
going on or running other then the usual background apps of whatever runs in the background.
I wasn't doing anything else but Vue.

Gotta get this and my other screen shots sent off to them.
Maybe it'll help them, maybe it won't.
But I CAN reproduce it everytime now, just by making changes over and over and over,
and creating a preview will add to this sooner then later, and this is even with me
clearing out the preview each time before I create another preview.

...................md :)

agiel
08-12-2005, 06:51 PM
How much memory do you have ?

mdunakin
08-12-2005, 06:55 PM
XP Pro sp2 5.1 (build 2600)
P4 3ghz HT 800 FSB
2gigs DDR RAM
ATI Radeon 9600XT 256megs Driver: 6.14.10.6553
Asus MOBO
2- 40gig IDE HDs
1- 160gig SATA HD
DVD-RW 12x
CD-ROM 52x

Note:
Actually, I need to update my info there.
My C drive now is a 120gigs, not the 40 I have listed in my specs.

..............................md :)

.

DigReal
08-12-2005, 07:38 PM
Hmmmm, you're running the same build as me, yet you're still having this problem and I'm not. That should give us some clues. Like maybe there's a conflict of some sort between Vue and something else on your system. Reporting to e-on sounds like as good a plan as any... along with your complete system specs.

Just a thought, can't hurt to try (famous last words). About the same time I installed build 859, I took Dale B's (I think it was him) advice and ran a registry cleaner on my system. The cleaner found over 500 items to remove or fix. Mostly bad Poser and Vue links. I do have a bad habit of moving my libraries around, so that was no real surprise. The only big change I've seen between then and the previous build, is that I don't get the low resources warnings anymore. At least so far, and I've been playing in Vue a lot the past week. Registry cleaning seems worth a try.

mdunakin
08-12-2005, 08:03 PM
OK, just so you know, I always have my anti virus running, especially since I'm on cable.

But, the main thing I want to point out, is that I constantly, (on a dayly basis) run
Norton System Scan which scans all of these sorts of things, including rregistry.
Though I am aware that it's probably not the same as an actual reg-cleaner.
And one other note, this is ALL running on a fresh system, as like I've mentioned,
I am now running on a new HD for my C drive which also means all fresh program installs.
I do a defrag about once a week when I go to bed of all my drives.

Here's one of the errors I do find every time I do a scan.... I think?
http://www.md-arts.com/NortonScanErrorHP.jpg
Meaning, I am certain I've seen this same one before.
But I also can't see how it would be doing any damage with reguards to Vue?
And I still haven't even finished installing some of the other apps I NEED on my system yet.
Like, I NEED to get the spyware/adware stuff all installed.

I'll do a reboot after I post here, and do another scan, just to varify if this same error comes?
P.S. What's a good reg app to get, if I really do NEED something other then Norton?
Which just so you know, I have the latest version that I just upgraded to.
Norton System Works 2005 Premier, with Ghost.
And no, I never installed the extras, like Norton BackUp.
Eates up too much disk space.

....................md :)
P.S. And yes, I purposely had to show in that screen shot,
that my dest top image is my desert scene LOL

.

DigReal
08-12-2005, 09:36 PM
I missed the part about the new c drive. Doesn't sound like a registry problem, then. Tho you never know. Still, the OOM problem was very common a few builds back. It used to drive me nuts. But I rarely hear about it any more, and haven't had it on my own system for some time now, which made me think it was cured.

I don't know what to make of this, Mark (in case you haven't noticed, I'm not a techie). Have you reported to e-on yet? I'm really getting curious about the cause and figure it can give clues about any problems the rest of us might encounter. I get the impression that Vue doesn't get along with some hardware and/or drivers, so this might be the case for you.

One thing I am sure of... Vue doesn't like a lot of hi-res textures. I suspect 90% of the problems folks have with Vue can be traced down to texture maps. On my system, Vue absolutely hates hi res textures, tho polygon counts can cause problems, too. Doesn't sound like either of those apply to what you're doing.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

mdunakin
08-12-2005, 10:12 PM
OK, I'm back, after taking a swim in the pool for a while to chill out :)

Anyway, that same registry error shows up every
single time I reboot my system for stupid HP something.
I thought I uninstalled or dissabled whatever stupid program that that was connected with.
My HP printer came with software taht installs some dumb control panel thingy that I
hate and never use and it was always in my task bar so I went into the regedit and
deleted the flippin thing and also any sort of StartUp HP stuff from the StartUp deal.

So, that keeps coming back every time I reboot, and i don't know how to get rid of that,
but I still dought that has anything to do with this problem at all,
but it "would" be nice to get rid of it.

And no, I haven't sent off that info to Vue yet, as I keep being
too busy with fifty things all at the same time today.
And I haven't had anything to eat yet either LOL

...................md :)

.

DigReal
08-12-2005, 10:26 PM
Well, yeah, chilling out in the pool is way more important than eating. Depending on the weather, that is. Only reached 95 today... that's the coolest its been here since June. I actually turned the AC off a few times.

LightWuv
08-12-2005, 11:33 PM
Just in case you ever want to buy one,

I use v-com's System Suite. It feels like it has a smaller overall footprint than Norton to me, and has never let me down so far. I'm sure others can direct you to better stand-alone reg cleaners, but the one included in System Suite is in my experience quite OK.

www.v-com.com I think.

LightWuv

edit: Also, I wish I had a pool.

Kevin Sanderson
08-13-2005, 12:45 AM
I hope you don't have one of those HP multi-function printer/scanner/copier things. It's drivers would kill many programs on a gal at work's PC. It was a memory hog.

You could also try looking for a driver uninstall program on the HP site, uninstall then see if you can get control of what added features are installed...a Custom installation instead of Typical.

You might want to try disconnecting yourself from the internet and turning off your virus scan stuff to see if it's causing the problems. You can leave the MS Firewall on.

Kevin

mdunakin
08-13-2005, 01:19 AM
Hmmm,,, well, even though the printer is NEVER on, it could still be screwing things up,
is that what you're saying? Cuz if so, then I'll try out that msconfig thingy, though I
almost never look at that thing or use it, so I hope I won't screw something up?
I don't want to have to constantly be switching the thing on and off any time
I want to use my printer, cuz yes, it IS one of those 3-in-one deals.
But it's off most of the time.
And personally, I really don't want to have to dissable my internet cnnection,
but will try that just for testing purposes, but I like to run programs in the
background doing whatever they're doing, like rendering and then do
stuff on the net for those boring render times.

And normally, this ALWAYS works just fine with every other program I have, including LW.

But, for testing purposes, I'll try that, AFTER I do the msconfig thingy.
Assuming that is, that turning off a printer driver isn't going to make my
life worse in that area, i.e. trading one bad thing for another bad thing,
like constantly having to turn off a driver and then turn it back on and off and on.

And thanx for the ideas also................md :)

.

Kevin Sanderson
08-13-2005, 10:55 AM
Yes, the printer does not need to be on for that HP program to be sitting there idling away in your system tray sucking up resources (it will even sit there telling you your printer is off). You can simply right click on the icon in the tray and turn it off and it will free up some resources if I recall. I also think you can shut it off in msconfig StartUp list and it shouldn't re-load, but you will have to turn it back on in the StartUp list if you want to use your printer or scanner, if memory serves. That was around a year or two ago when I was helping to solve her problems when she was on Windows 98. The IT guy was hesitant to hook it up on her new PC. The actual driver download was around 200MB!! So you know it's inflated and sucking up resources besides what I saw in her memory manager program to confirm that. I know she never uses it to print now...she uses an older inkjet HP besides the network Xerox & older laserjet HP.

I know the advice in Animation:Master land is just let that program render and don't do anything else if you don't want crashes. Maybe it's the same for Vue. LW has been through much much more pro use, so it's probably been toughened up over the years in its use of memory and getting along with other programs. Also in A:M, a benefit was found disabling virus scan, power save and screen saver features as they can interrupt renders. If I recall, Avid even advises not using your PC to run other programs when running Avid.

If you have a hardware firewall in your Cable router/switcher, you should be OK hooked up to the internet...a ping can't get through because they can't see you. Pings can mess up running programs. Used to happen at work to a dedicated server...the program would hang when the server was pinged, so they took it off the internet and all was good again. (The computer doing the pinging was in another city at another division behind the corporate firewall so it could.)

Kevin

mdunakin
08-13-2005, 05:36 PM
Hmmm,,, Well, flip!

Half the suggestions you just made are things I don't want to do.
Mainly the internet stuff.
Because for example, like when I was trying to read Dig's thread last night on
Distribution Mapping and at the same time trying it out, as it was a tutorial,
in Vue, then I would of HAD to have been on the net to follow along.
As for the HP bit, I dissabled that thingy in the tray ages ago, as it got on my nerves.
I pretty much dissable anything that shows up in the tray, unless I absolutely need it,
as I've been aware of tray problems since time began when I read an article on it once.
So now, every time I install anything and it automatically puts something into the tray,
I then go to my regedit and delete the flippin things out of there and then reboot.
Of course way back then, my main reasoning was more for memory issues, since those
tray thingies like to eat up lots of memory when you aren't even using the stupid things.
But I'm not exactly running out of memory when all these problems happen now.

But, as I posted to the other thread, today I'm going to spend the day testing out
everything I can think of and NOT try to have fun with Vue, as in playing, but just
do things to see what I can do to crash it and then see if I can track this down
to something in particular, i.e. I'll treat it like I'm beta testing software.
I'm very good at beta testing, so I'm going to just have to really get my head into
that mode and forget that I'm trying to enjoy myself with this cool new program I bought.

Sounds funny, but it's also sad, uhg. LOL

thanx....................md :)
P.S. Oh, and here's that link I already posted:
http://www.md-arts.com/IncompatibilityMode.jpg
So, if you have any ideas on if any of their suggestions which might work, let me know?

.

DigReal
08-13-2005, 09:44 PM
Guess this stuff is driving you nuts? Been there, so know how you feel. You don't need to do a pdf, do what I do. Save all the images, and copy the text to wordpad or something. Then you don't need to have your browser open. But you're right, you shouldn't need to do that. It's an option, tho.

I'm able to have my paint app open while using Vue. That's the only multi-tasking I do on that machine. I have a very old machine I use just for the internet. It's a handy way to work, because then I can display tuts and such on one screen, while working on the other. And if some virus wipes out the hd, all I've lost are my emails and bookmarks (painful as that may be, it's better than losing my work).

Half the stuff in that Vue list you posted I don't even use. But a few I know about, and they do make a difference. I have opengl enabled, but have the opengl textures turned off. Opengl textures look awful anyway, so why waste resources. When my scenes started getting heavy, I used to disable the auto scene preview thing. That used to make a big difference when I was having crash problems. For the last 2 builds, I haven't had to do that, but I think it'll help for you. For the undo thing, I have that set to 3. I save my work so often, I really don't even need undo, except when I'm shaping a terrain. Terrain shaping is the only reason I keep it at 3.

Hey, here's some extra incentive for ya. I was thinking about the distribution mapping for ecosystems, and came up with a tut theme you'll really like. You know those rocky outcrops and hills that seem to just pop up in the middle of the deserts? Here's a peek at what I'm working with:

http://www.digreal4d.com/vuedist/outcrop1.jpg

I still need to remember how to control a 3rd zone to the eco map, then I'll post that. Prob Sunday or Monday.

Good luck, Mark!

mdunakin
08-13-2005, 10:41 PM
Looks pretty freekin good so far! :)

Well, anyway, today I just never had any time to get to even try one single thing out
with Vue yet, as I just keep ahving to do other things and in just a little while,
I'll be heading out for that BBQ anyway.
It's probably for the better anyway to get away from the comp for a while,
as that lot's of times helps to clear one's head :)

Before I leave for the day, can you all (those who know that is) where do i go to find
all these OpenGL issues, like settings and adjustment and Hardware settings
and all those things that are listed in that screen shot I posted here
of Compatability Suggestions from Vue.

This way, when I get back or whatever, I can at least have a clue as to where to go to look for these things?

And also, I found my own methods for doing what your tutorial does, but with some
different looks and settings and such, for creating a road, since I couldn't remember
what all you had done and I didn't want to get online to find out, so I stumbled
my way through, with using nothing but Material layers.
Works quite similer, but then I went to bed :)

thanx.................md :)
P.S. When I figure out what crap is doing all this, I'll be SURE to post
up my findings right here for anyone else who may need them.

.

videodv
08-13-2005, 11:18 PM
Sorry to here your having such problems but just a thought which I'm sure you have allready done but vue has a lot of problems with opengl with some cards, so if you havent yet, turn off opengl in preferences, I would then check your graphics card drivers ect a lot of people have sorted a lot of these types of problem by updateing there card drivers.

Just a couple of thoughts.

videodv.

DigReal
08-13-2005, 11:32 PM
In Vue... file--- options. Here are the settings I use:

http://www.digreal4d.com/misc/mark1.jpg

http://www.digreal4d.com/misc/mark2.jpg

Cool that you found another way of doing the road thing. Hope you can post that sometime. But you REALLY want to expore the function editor and filters. It doesn't look like much at first glance, but there must be a zillion... no, make that 2 zillion options in there. Someday I hope to spend a week just exploring the ways to shape a terrain. :eek:

Enjoy the BBQ. If they have tequilia, I think you need a shot. I know I'd want 2 or 3.

mdunakin
08-14-2005, 04:51 AM
Thanx tons guys, and I just got home and it's 9:45pm and I am FULLL! :)

Anyway, I'll check all this stuff out tomorrow and see what I see.
As for the card, it's one of the "exact" cards that Vue recommends, as in it's in
the ATI Radeon 9600XT series, which is one of the 2 cards they suggest using.
At least that's what I seen at their site before I bought the software.

And no way, I could never deal with that "ta-kill-ya" anymore.
Being caried down stairs once in my lifetime was once too many LOL

A couple of beers and loads of ribs and carnie asada was more then enough for this kid :)

Anyway, I DID have the updated drivers installed for my card, but they sucked and
kept screwing things up, so I had to uninstall them and go back to the earlier version
that came with the card, so in otherwords, I KNOW I'm using outdated drivers,
but if the new ones won't work, then what can a person do?!

Time to just chill and watch the rest of what's left of the Padre's loosing in the top of the 8th.
And I'll deal with Vue "fun" tomorrow.

Thanx again all, I appreciate it and I'm sure things will get worked out, some how? :)

.............................md :)


.

mdunakin
08-14-2005, 06:07 AM
An update, that may??? have something to do with things,
though I have no clue if this might of been the problem or not?
But, I checked the driver for the card, and even though it looked as
though it was the current version, it's date was for 2004, and not this year!
Last time, I used THEIR uninstaller thingy that they say to use, but I think maybe
that was screwy or something, cuz this time I just installed right over the old stuff
and didn't do an uninstall of the old drivers and NOW it shows the real date.
Still looks to me to be the same drive build though, but with the correct date!?
Hmmmm.....?

So, I'll see when I start doing some test.
As you can see, I couldn't wait till tomorrow to see what's up LOL

I'll let ya all know if this makes any difference or not?
I "am" quite aware that OpenGL things CAN cause problems and do all the time.

OK, I also just set all my settings to match your's Steve, as YOU aren't ahving
any of these problems, and from what you mentioned before, you said that
you have almost the same setup as I have, so let's see what happens?
And THANX TONS!, for showing me your settings! :)
This might help me out, or at least, I'll be on the same track as you are.

........................md :)

.

MsLin
08-14-2005, 10:25 AM
One thing I've noticed in your memory discussion was Norton. Norton is a notorious cycles hog - antivirus, systemworks, the whole thing. I used to use the AV program, but ended up turning off my cable modem and shutting Norton down when I was using Vue. Finally got Trend Micro PC-cillin and love it. Works great, small footprint and doesn't conflict with anything on my machine. (price is right, too). I work for a software company and we switched at work too - too many problems with Norton.

Just a thought.

mdunakin
08-14-2005, 11:33 AM
Thanx for that, MsLin, as I already love the FREE online HouseCall they have their, and in fact always trust it more then Norton's or anyone else's for that matter and use it every week.
So I'll check into that and see what I see?
And what price did you pay for it, as you imply it was good?

Thanx..................md :)
P.S. It's 4:30am and I woke up and decided to check on a scene I was rendering in Vue,
the one that was just a growing tree and kept crashing Vue, and the whole 601 frames
were all done rendering and now I'm posting up a link to my first growing tree test animation,
over in that thread right now.

MsLin
08-14-2005, 02:35 PM
I think it was 30.00 with rebate. Doesn't break the bank.

mdunakin
08-14-2005, 03:13 PM
OK, I went to their site and it's 49.99 and with upgrade from Norton, you get a 25 dollar mail-in rebate.


I think I'll get it anyway, just because it does a lot more then Norton's does.
A LOT more.
I still like Norton for all the other great things it does though.
And now that I have Ghost, I can't even imagine how I ever got along without it all these years.

...............................md :)

That-JC
08-29-2005, 06:20 AM
I'm a PC consultant and deal with this stuff every day. I put together a PDF abotu Windows XP setup and maintenace issues that might help with Vue (and other) issues:

http://wellmadewebs.com/public/3d/vue/xp-maintain-11.pdf

I always turn off that useless HP printer toolbox - see my PDF for method of controlling what starts up along with Windows.

The only Symantec product i recommend is Norton Ghost 9 for backups and drive cloning.
I recommend against Norton Anti-virus and always use Trend Micro's PC-Cillin for me and my clients - as suggested above.

Seems to me that the latest beta build from e-on may have a memory leak. They are hard at work on the next one - to fix all the problems with the build they had to remove for their new Cornucopia store. I'm sure they will test the heck out of this next build and it will fix these memory issues. Meantime, save often and close down Vue every half hour, then restart it, to get all the memory back that is probably "leaking" out.

mdunakin
08-29-2005, 04:53 PM
Well, now I don't even use or have that HP toolbox thingy installed anymore.
I completely uninstalled it all and THEN I ONLY installed the drivers for the printer
and NOT the rest of the software, since I didn't use or like that lame thing anyway.

As far as Norton goes, I'm not all that sure it causes all the problems everyone always seems to blame on it?
For me, it's one of those things were people who don't like Norton products, tend to
say it's no good and blame everything that could go wrong on a computer, on Norton.
Makes it hard to tell what's truth and what's just someone's opnions?

I'll read your PDF though, just to see what's in it?
Cuase I personally DO like the tools in Norton and use them all the time.
Though I now use Registry Machanic for that area of things, since I descovered it
finds more then Norton does, after doing test between the two for the past month now.
So I decided to buy it.

But, maybe that eliminates half the tools in Norton, I'm not sure?

Thanx for your advice and suggestions either way.
And like I say, I'll read up on your PDF just to see what I see.
I have to get back to ordering my new system though and that'll
take me a while before I can get back to reading anything from forums.
Can't wait! to get that thing built! :)
AMD64 DualCore 4400+, 4gigs RAM, all SATA Drives and other good things in there.
And then I can have TWO computers to play on and also render from :)

..................md :)

.

DigReal
08-29-2005, 05:44 PM
Nice sounding machine, Mark. I'm planning on one of those dualcore AMD64 beasts myself, but not until winter. It's going to be a long wait. Til then, I'll want to hear about yours.

Thanks for that pdf, Jim. Some stuff in there I hadn't thought of.

mdunakin
08-29-2005, 06:06 PM
Yeah Dig, it's going to be a very cool system, for sure!

Here's what I just ordered, though not everything from NewEgg.
I just have them listed from my wish list there, but some of the items
I ordered through Monarch, being as I was able to save a lot from stupid taxes, which
NewEgg would of killed me on, but NewEgg had the drive I wanted, plus a rebate on the Display Card.

Anyay, just placed the order today!
Should be pretty fun, when I get it all put together.
Haven't decided on the case yet, so I went ahead and ordered everything else but the case.
I may end up going with the same case I'm currently using, since
I like this one so much, but I'll wait till I get the stuff and then decide :)

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131540 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131540)
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814150091 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814150091)
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819103546 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819103546)
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820227210 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820227210)
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820227210 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820227210)
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822144234 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822144234)

That's about enough for the moment.
And like I say, I'll decide which Case/PS I should get later.
I was told to get this one for the PS, but I'll see:
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103932 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103932)
And I'll worry about DVD burners and those things later as well.
I may just yank some of those sort of things out of my current system, but I'll see.

Anyway, should be a fun system and 4gigs RAM won't hurt anything either :)
That's why it's listed twice up there, because I ordered two sets of 2gigs.

Should all get here by the end of the week.
I'll need me some real cooling though for that hot puppy.............md :)
Anyway, time to read that PDF that Jim posted up and see what I see.
It's always a good thing to learn something new that'll improve on performance.
So, thanx for that Jim :)

.

mdunakin
08-29-2005, 07:47 PM
OK, still reading through your killer PDF Jim, and I already have a question for you, if you don't mind?
I was under the impression that I'm supposed to have my 120mm fan on the front blow IN
to the machine, and have my two 80mm fans on the back, blow OUT of the machine?
But you say they should ALL be blowing IN to the machine?
I mean other then the Power Supply which blows the hot air OUT of the machine.
Where does the hot air go to, if you aren't sucking it out on the back side or something?
Seems like the logic would be to blow in cool air at one end
and suck out the hot air at the opposite end, no?

I also have a vent on the side that goes right over the CPU Fan/HeatSink but no fan in it.
Do I need a fan for that too and if so, should it also blow IN or what?

I'm asking these questions, because my system has always run 10c higher then
is recommended by Intel and now I'm about to build an even hotter machine.

Thanx, and now I'll get back to reading you great! PDF.
And many, many thanx for that thing, as it's really well written and well covered.

.....................md :)

That-JC
08-30-2005, 08:10 AM
Thanks mdunakin, glad if it helps folks. On that fan issue, the power supply fan does (there are some are the other way) usually exhaust FROM the case. And yes, any front of case fan should blow into the case. But i had a client with a hot system and reversing the airflow of the extra back case fan was the only thing that worked for him. What was overheating for him was not the processor, but the "Zone One" (the main VLSI "glue chip" that runs the motherboard - that "other heatsink" you see).

With the back case fan blowing out, the Zone 1 area got a gentle breeze, just like everywhere else. When i reversed it, it blew a strong stream of cool air directly through the Zone 1 area. This air then became warm and was pulled up by the CPU fan and out by the power supply. Made a huge difference. Now i always do similar motherboards that way.

You say you have a place for a fan on the side panel. That sounds like the best bet to blow into, to me, if it's right over the CPU area.

Anyway, you'll prolly find the dual core CPU a lot cooler - that's half the reason AMD and Intel are going that route - they can't add more power the old way and still have CPUs people can actually cool. Everyone would have to go to water cooling!

Kevin Sanderson
08-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Excellent tips in your pdf, Jim! It echoes much of what I posted in a similar tips guide I did for users of Animation:Master. Helped make many systems more stable so real software bugs could be pinned down. Got some of my tips from respected IT folks I know and Maximum PC, etc.

There's sometimes an air of "of course my computer is stable, nothing else crashes!" with users, many I've encountered for the first time in a long time, at recent visits to the e-on forums. One guy even called my suggestions (similar to yours) patronizing and foolish. They'll just keep crashing if their own PC's instability is the true cause and not the software, or human tricks (one user just found out his climbing memory usage was due to a function he had checked on long ago causing multiple Poser files to be made for motion blur purposes in Vue), then they'll never find a program that works. There has to be a reason so many folks have stable systems and no problems with Vue that it must boil down to system problems with the people always getting crashes - and I DO NOT mean the people with legit bug reports - or improper usage of the program, e.g. not following directions in the manual (have to throw that disclaimer in for some thin skinned folks who occasionally visit and have -ahem- problems reading and comprehending written text, and the poor ones who think every finger is pointing at them!).

Open GL problems may be a cause as pointed out here and elsewhere (video cards and driver issues are problems for many programs - goes back to system stability), but a healthy, well fed and cooler PC can really make us more certain of what's really wrong.

Kevin

mdunakin
08-30-2005, 05:45 PM
I appreciate both of your guy's comments on this, as I'm always looking for a way to
help eliminate possible problem areas.
Since you got me all curious now, Jim, I'm going to do some test and check before and
afters of temps, since my Asus board came with a Monitor software.
I have to ask this:
Since I have two back fans one above the other, might I want to take the bottom fan
and reverse it so IT blows In and and top fan blows out? Or should I go ahead and flip
both fans to blow in and let the PS fan do all the sucking out of air?

BTW, I've ordered my new system, and it should be here by week's end! :)

thanx..................md :)

mdunakin
08-30-2005, 10:52 PM
Well, I flipped the two fans in the back to blow in, and it dropped the temps for the
mobo and the cpu for a bit, but as it warmed back up, things went back up again.
Though the cpu stayed about 5C degrees lower then it was before.
But the mobo started off 5C lower and then went back up to 41C again.
The cpu stays arounf 55C.
Which no matter what, is still wayyyy higher then what
the package said it should run at, which is about 30C.

I then took a fan out of a dead PS and connected it to the side panel to blow air in,
and that didn't do much either.
I guess it's impossible to cool a flippin system down to something reasonable?

My next step, is to open the side panel and stick a regulat house fan
(one of them smaller ones) up against the thing and see
if THAT makes any difference or not?

I'm dreading what temps I'm going to have to deal with on my new, much hotter system?
Though you say the AMD runs a little cooler, I think I need a LOT more cooling then I have now?

Oh, and those temps are in idle mode.
When I run a heavy duty scene in LW, the CPU goes up to about 65C.
And the mobo goes up to about 45C.

.......................md :(

That-JC
08-31-2005, 01:54 AM
Well, i think the best thing for you (and others) to do is just what you're doing - experiment to find the best solution for your own case and motherboard arrangement. Then let everyone know the best arrangement, so folks with similar setups don't have to test.

It's a lot of work to "scientificlly" try all the combinations and permutations, but if there are those who can't render without worrying about overtemp, i guess it has to be done.

Couple of useful fans (as mentioned in my PDF):
*There is a black plastic muffin fan available that fits into an adapter bracket and exhausts out through a grill built into the bracket.
*There is an arrangement of 3 small fans that fits into the drive bay blank panel where you would add another CD drive or such. Many people with larger cases have 2 such panel spaces available.

I definetly like larger cases.

Tom's Hardware (.com) has info on cooling. They had an article about a superior water cooling system that totally fits inside the case - eliminating tubing/pump/tank outside the case and potential leaks.

Never used a water cooling system (rabid gamers and overclockers are providing a growing market), but i can imagine a wheezing pump, burbling transparent water tank (with fish inside), ultraviolet lighting, winking blue LEDs and LED fans for the whole thing. Good place for the favorite rubber ducky.

That-JC
08-31-2005, 02:08 AM
Kevin,
I'm beginning to think that Vue 5i does sometimes cause problems other programs don't. Not because of bugs (though there are bugs, as you mention), but just because it has to use an unusually large hunk of resources to do its magic. Therefore, it sort of "stress tests" the users system and shows up defects. Just an idea, but it would account for the many sincere folks who say that Vue causes problems but their other software does not.

For example, my temperature monitor shows rising temps during Vue 5i renders that far exceed what other software causes. That's prolly partly 'cause i couldn't afford a new PCI Express display card to replace my old AGP ATI X-800 on my brand new motherboard and am temporarily using an onboard graphics chipset.


And of course the whole render farm functionality brings into play a lot of network issues and is not exactly a mature technology - more like unexplored territory. At least at the semi-pro/comsumer level.

What do you think?

Kevin Sanderson
08-31-2005, 09:43 AM
Hey, Jim...

Yes, I would say that it is computationally heavy. I have watched it (and Poser and I think Animation:Master as well) really increase my AMD Athlon XP CPU's temp..as much as 20 degrees! (bought a new fan that exhausts through the front of the case in a drive bay opposite the CPU and memory bank.) Unfortunately, many do not believe it's more computationally heavy than their other programs (they'll mention Lightwave and Maya) and don't believe what you and I do. I think they could be wrong and agree it could stress test a system to its knees if it's not healthy.

I'm not so sure how much the graphics card plays in all this, except for Open GL display and possible page fault issues. It must rely on the CPU for rendering otherwise you couldn't do the network rendering on lesser machines as I've done and Dale B. has also done (with only 512MB of RAM on each lesser machine! 1gig on my main).

I do think the network setup is the easiest of any program I've seen and it seems to work flawlessly the few times I've used it so far.

Kevin

Kevin Sanderson
09-01-2005, 12:20 PM
Jim, Another user over at the e-on forum says we shouldn't be seeing that temperature fluctuation and suggested I reseat my CPU heat sink and put on new thermal paste. I'll give it a whirl later and see. Bet it won't make much difference though as I don't see temps rise like that in other programs except the ones I already mentioned.

Kevin

Kevin Sanderson
09-01-2005, 07:31 PM
Hey Jim,

Steve at e-on has confirmed what we thought...and it would factor in to random crashes.

The guy saying we shouldn't see those fluctuations responded that he forgot that he's got a liquid cooled rig and us regular folks could see temp spikes like that. Meanwhile, I'm suffering from "heat stroke". :)

I just bought another fan.

Kevin

mdunakin
09-01-2005, 07:48 PM
LOL, heat stroke :)
That's about right.
I'm getting ready to leave for the computer store to talk to the guy there and see
what sollutions I want to go with for my current system as well as
the one I'm in the process of building.
Plus, I'm gonna mill around for a case.
Wished "I" could design my own case.
Most are either ugly as heck, or they just plain suck.
Or they are over priced.
And most, I'll have to toss the PS that comes with them, as none are any good.
I aready ordered me a decent PS to put in the case, when ever I find it.
But I NEED to get that cooling problem under control around here.
Like I say, if it comes down to it, I'll do what I did ages ago and
take off the side panel and stick a fan up against the thing LOL

wish me luck!................md :)

.

Kevin Sanderson
09-01-2005, 09:27 PM
Good luck! I always thought a refrigerator might do the trick. :)

But the guy with liquid cooling was saying his stays around 39 degrees centigrade. That might be the way to go...or one of those huge finned up heat sinks with variable speed fans...run around $40 - $50. I might get one of those and throw everything into a new case where it would all fit.

Kevin

mdunakin
09-01-2005, 11:30 PM
I'm back and we'll see what happens?

I bought a case that holds 8 80mm fans and it came with two already in it.
Won't get the rest of my stuff till next week though.
So, I'll have to wait and see what happens then?
One way or another though, I'm going to keep that thing cool :)
And yes, the thought of getting a water cooled has passed my mind a few times :)
Bought the regular XP Pro for the time being and will go to the 64bit version next
year or whenever things start to get caught up with the 64bit setup?
Anyway, in the meantime while I wait, I can start connecting up alllll those fans LOL
Oh, and yes, I'll be yanking out that lame power supply that came with the Raidmax case.
That's a joke!
I bought me an awesome Antec 550w with more SATA plugs then I could ever want
along with loads of other plugs as well, I just hope there's enough for those fans? Ha! :)
I know, I could of bought a more expensive case, but after days and days of research,
I realized that expensive doean't nessisarily mean "good". Neither does cheap mean bad.
Most have lame amounts of room for cooling, like fans or they're ugly as all get out.
Or they have "doors" on the front, which would grate on my nerves the first day,
and I'd end up ripping the flipping door clean off of the thing! LOL

...................md :)


.

mdunakin
09-02-2005, 07:49 PM
Ok, Jim, some more querstions, if you don't mind?
I am installing my fans, all 8 of them, and the 2 that came with it
are on the left side down at the bottom, but they have them set
to sucking air OUT and not blowing air IN. Should I flip them?
Or do I want to have some other fans sucking the hot air OUT?
Right now I have 4 fans on the front blowing air IN and the 2 on
the back also blowing air IN, but maybe I should have the 2 on the
bottom blowing IN the air and then have the 2 on the back, which are
also higher up (heat rises) sucking the hot air OUT?
Or should they ALL blow air IN and have ONLY
the PS's fan sucking all the hot air OUT?
Seems like a lot to ask of the PS, no?

Thanx, and I'll wait for your reply, especially
since I am still waiting on the MoBo and such anyway.

One thing for sure, this thing will have all the opportunities to be cooled off :)

And, it'll kick some butt once it's all setup.
Just bought a 16x Double Layer DVD Burner also.
Now they just need to bring the prices down for bland 8.5 DVDs!
I think there is only one brand making them blanks so far?

...................md :)
P.S. Since i have to wait till next Tuesday before I get the MoBo and all that,
I decided I wanted to order me a Thermal Display Panel, so that'll be cool.
The cae didn't come with one, and besides, this one will do a lot
more then what comes with a stanard case anyway.
And it'll control ALL my fans too, as well as watch the temps :)


.

That-JC
09-03-2005, 06:15 PM
Hi Guyz,
Been a bit busy and haven't been around.
Excellent info Kevin. I did find one program that raised my PC temp as much as Vue 51 renders. It's a MS-Word to PDF convertor (not from Adobe). Have not done any 3D modeling since getting my new PC, so don't know how Silo is on temp. It's very effecient and i don't remember it causing heating in the past.

The problem with high-end display cards is they keep themselves from overheating by dumping a lot of heat from their own fans into the case. I guess that with all the connectors, there is no room to vent through the bracket. If i was the designer, i'd offer a model that vents through the next door bracket of the PCI buss, instead of sluffing that problem off on the user or case manufacturer.

MD: The only reason i know of to blow into the case from the back or side is to create a stream of ambient temp air that flows directly onto the Zone 1 or the CPU (or whatever shows the hotest on a monitor). I would start with only 1 back or side fan blowing inwards, but really you will have to experiment. Motherboards differ in placement of the hot areas and the cases vary too. It's not like i have a solution that's going to help in every case (pun half-way intended).

I learned a bit by watching smoke from a stick of incense blowing around inside with a flashlight - but with the side back on air might flow a bit differently. If you have access to a laser, that would show up a smoke stream much better.

Case manufacturers seem to think that you should leave the case side on always, to promote the "chimney" effect of natural convection and force the air flow which they (presumably) designed. But i find that the temp is always a bit lower with the side off.

I really estimate that your upcoming dual core CPU and motherboard will be a lot cooler.
With all those fans your about to install, i hope you bought some earplugs.

MY own rig is worrying me because when the CPU temp hits the alarm threshold, the fan is still only going less than 1/2 speed. If there is no speed adjust in the BIOS (haven't looked yet), then that is an issue.

Maybe water cooled is the best, until the dual core 64 bit stuff hits the market and has at least one price cut - putting it in my price range, maybe. If going with a water cooler, i'd sure look at that fully internal system i saw in the Tom's Hardware site review. It has factory sealed plumbing and fewer water connections. Scary to think what a water leak inside a hot running PC might do.

On that thought - Cheers!

mdunakin
09-03-2005, 06:50 PM
Thanx tons for that info Jim, and yes, I actually haven't totally even decided if I'll
have ALL the fans running or not yet, or which ones.
Personally, I thought that they designed the case pretty stupidly though.
Because WHY ON EARTH! would they put the 2 side fans on the BOTTOM! instead of at
the TOP where they would actually work, as you just mentioned, like the chimmeny effect?
I even though of flipping the side over some way to let that happen, but I can't, so that's out.
But to me, having the 4 front fans blowing in from the front, which also are at the BOTTOM,
then it seems like the 2 side bottom fans would end up sucking the cool air from the front fans,
before that cool air even has the chance to cool anything on the MoBo off or anything?
And BTW, 'after' I bought those 4 fans for the front, I later realized that I could of put in
just 1 large 120mm sized fan instead, but of well.
Though I might just buy one of those instead?
I really don't like all the wires in there right now, nor trying to figure out where I'll plug all those fans into?

As for those warter cooled things, gawd, that sort of stuff always scares me.
I mean, water and electricity don't exactly mix very well, though they must mix
to some extent when it come to fish tanks and such LOL
But also, don't those things cost a fortune?
Right now, I'm at the, "fed up with spending money", phase.

And yes, I have a laser, which I never even thought of the smoke and laser bit.
That does sound like it might be fun to see what happens with the air inside?
I may not even need most of those fans or it might help to see which fans should be doing what?
One thing that'll make that cool to watch, is that most of the side panel is glass,
or whatever material it's made of, but it's clear in otherwords :)

Anyway, thanx for all the help, and I agree, this is one of those
things where experimenting will no dought be what I'll have to do.

Now, if I could just get the rest of my stuff?
I tracked it all, and it's just sitting at the FedEx sorting station here in town.
I think I have to wait till Monday before I can get the stuff?
I mean, I'll have to wait till Tuesday, since I just remembered that Monday is a holliday...uhg.
That's what happens when every day is the same as the next for someone like me,
I tend to forget about things like weekends and hollidays and such LOL
Oh well, I can play with Vue or something else, though I found a new way to crash Vue on me last night.
Add a mixed layer and set the second layer to Eco and crash.
Though that might of just been normal screwiness, who knows these days.
It'll be nice to see how Vue handles on the new system?

anyway.................md :)

mdunakin
09-03-2005, 07:44 PM
BTW, Kevin, do you have the write-up you said you did a while back?
Is there a link to it or something?
Or did I missunderstand you?

Thanx.........md :)


.

Kevin Sanderson
09-03-2005, 11:49 PM
Jim, I now use an Antec extendable 3-speed intake fan that takes up 2 PCI slots to send air toward the video card and the inner case, besides the regular case fan. I have a turbine lateral cross flow fan in a drive bay exhausting air out the front. It's supposed to move up to 100 CFM. Also lowered my Athon's speed and that helped cool things a bit, though I wasn't running that fast. Right now as I type it's 54 C/129 F, which is the coolest it's run doing normal stuff. Before all that it was running around 149- 154 F normally and peaking at 174 F while rendering in Vue.

Mark, It's older info (toward Windows 98 & Animation:Master stability), but maybe a nugget or two might help.

http://www.ksanderson.com/amtips.html

Kevin

mdunakin
09-04-2005, 08:42 AM
Thanx for that link, and I'll be reading more later, but so far I like what I've read.
I pretty much already do most of what is there, with reguards to saving frequently
and also trying to run only apps I need or other such things listed there.
Though I do generally have at least one to three other programs running while I work in LW.
Vue, that's a diffeent story and I'm still in the figuring out what will work and what won't?

Anyway, I want to know if you or Jim, which ever it was who posted that Tom's Hardware
had some article on internal cooling systems, and I for the life of me can't seem to find it?
Can someone please post EXACTLY where that story is for me?
The only articles I found were all dated 2004.
I need something more modern then that.

thanx................md :)


.

That-JC
09-04-2005, 04:26 PM
I had a look at Tom's Hardware (water cooling is under "Procesors", but i used the search function).
Looks like most articles are from 2004, when i last checked there. Maybe water cooling products have not changed.

Found a very interesting sealed, all internal water cooling unit specifically designed for Intel P-4 & Intel motherboards like mine and only $99. Seems Intel had a hand in the design and it simply pops in to replace the default Intel boxed fan i have.
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041015/index.html

I wouldn't consider any but fully internal water cooling, myself.

Kevin, those fans you're using sound very nice. I'll have to check those out too.

Keep cool :o)

mdunakin
09-04-2005, 06:15 PM
Thanx, and yeah, I was doing a search for (duh) "cooling".
All I was able to find was a bunch of out dated stuff.
Didn't find that fully internal version, which was the one I wanted to see.
Too bad you say it's only for Intel.

Anyway, I too like Kevin's cooling setup and will be checking into that.
Of course, for me, I'm not even going to spend another cent until I get the thing built.
Then I can see how loud or not it is, and whether or not it even gets hot?

..................md :)

.

mdunakin
09-04-2005, 08:01 PM
OK, I've been doing some searching for more modern up to date products,
and this is what I've come up with so far:

http://www.xoxide.com/coolermaster-aquagate-mini-r120.html

http://www.xoxide.com/coolermaster-aquagate-mini-r80.html

http://www.xoxide.com/tt-bigwater-kit.html

http://www.xoxide.com/kwcoolingsys.html
And this is a review of it that really goes into some
better depth then some of the other reviews I've found.
http://www.cluboverclocker.com/reviews/super_cooling/kingwin/arcticliquidcooler/index.htm
I almost want to buy this puppy, but of course, still need to wait to see how things turn out later.
But, the fact that it cools both the CPU 'and' the video card, make it a pretty awesome deal.
And other reviews also on more similar products:
http://www.cluboverclocker.com/reviews/index.htm#Water%20Cooling

Not all of these of course might suit someone's needs, but I posted them anyway.
And I'm still doing some searching.
If I find others that I like, I'll add them to this post here.

...........md :)

.

DigReal
09-04-2005, 09:16 PM
Thanks for thos links, Mark. I've bookmarked the cluboverclocker review... that cooler does sound nice.

That-JC
09-04-2005, 09:47 PM
Good work, MD. That "Aquagate" unit was the one i saw last year that looked like the least hassle. Too bad the Intel specific unit i'm interested in doesn't also do the display card.

Because i'm a PC consultant working with conservative businesses, i stick to Intel motherboards (which have also been very good, except for 1 model a few years ago). Got nothing against AMD or other motherboards though.

mdunakin
09-04-2005, 10:07 PM
Well, this one might also be one to consider:
http://www.cluboverclocker.com/reviews/super_cooling/Coolwave/stormcool3/index.htm
Quite simple amd 'it' has three! coolers on it.
For the same price as that other one I liked.
That would keep your CPU, your vidoe card and a North Bridge cooler as well.

Which ever version, I prefer the kind that has a decent clampping system for the hoses.
I don't really trust something that just slips onto the nosle end of something with out no clamp.

Anyway, 2 more days to go for me.... uhg :)
But, I get to play with Vue today, which I haven't done in a while.
Gonna try my hand 'again' with the layering of materials and see if I can get
that control that I soo much want, with hight and placement of vegitations and such.

.......................md :)
P.S. You got that tut ready yet, Dig? :)


.

DigReal
09-04-2005, 10:49 PM
I should be able to post it sometime tomorrow, Mark. I wanted it to be based on a real render instead of some simplistic thing, so I recreated the camp cholla thing I posted before. This time the camp is based on a desert sample I drove past on my way to Joshua Tree last week. I'm waiting on the render as we speak, so the render should go up in the desert thread in an hour (the desert thread needs to be bumped up, anyways). I'll try to get the tut posted early tomorrow, so you have most of the day to play. There are still a few tweeks I want to work out, but they aren't important for the tut, so I'll let them slide for now.

I'll think you'll like this one. :)

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