Check out the Luxology/Allegorithmic PS plugin

[rebo]

Sorry not impressed can see tile lines all over those textures.

[Per-Anders]

You know that photoshop has a tileable texture generator inbuilt since version 7 right? and it softens edges and is more or less instant.

I think a little more of a demonstration is required to impress, maybe some other features are in that plugin that weren't shown. What was shown there appeared to be just a very slow stamping of a single texture followed by some manual stamping... nothing that can't be done faster in Photoshop on it's own, unless I missed something (I may well have done, and I apologise if i have).

[Beamtracer]

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/316/imagesynth9dv.jpg

Here's some more info.

A link to Allegorithmic's front page (just to make it easy for you!)
http://www.allegorithmic.com/

The Quicktime movie (linked on the first post of this thread) comes in at 21MB. I like to know how big things are before downloading them!

A comment from Luxology President:
Our first design is to have this as a PS filter. This will come free with modo 201, but will also be a stand alone product. We do agree that integrating this functionality into modo is a good long term goal.

I think it looks pretty amazing. This is more than anything Photoshop 7 can do.

If you haven't watched the video, they seem to get a very small image, like the one of a pile of yellow nuts. Then they just keep throwing more copies of that same image onto the screen, without even lining the images up. This "image synth" Photoshop plug-in from Luxology seems to generate or synthesize the in-between bits.

Wow. Currently I make seamless tile images by laboriously using the Photoshop clone tool and offset filter. I can see myself doing it much much faster with this plug-in.

I get the impression that Allegorithmic is going to sell this as a stand-alone Photoshop plug-in, and Luxology will be bundling it free with modo version 201.

[leuey]

C'mon guys - you really think it's just the equivalent of PS's built-in tileable texture generator? Seriously......I don't think either company would waste their time with that. It also appears that you can grab an arbitrary piece of the image and stamp it and have it compute boundries around it. I don't see the PS filter doing that (nor do I ever use it - it's not any better (worse actually) than the old offset/clone/equalize levels trick.)

Good lord people....I'm sure more examples will come - I think we've hit the 'everything sucks, I'm so jaded' phase of cgi.......how depressing.

-Greg

[Per-Anders]

Well it's just that it didn't show any clear examples of adding anything inbetween the stamps, so the video isn't a good example then.

The video wasn't clear, it appears to show only a single stamp being repeated without visual additional information or particularly succesful hard edge removal, the edges were still clearly visible hard and there.

the ps pattern tool will do some form of boundary calculations, it's worth playing around with, and yes it will take a small selection and make a bigger texture out of that too if you want, though i agree it's not something i'd bother to use in texture creation.

this does at least appear to be one step on from there... but it doesn't look like it's as far down the road as a certain product that was advertised on cgtalks banners not so long ago, that could mix and match multiple texture sources to create what appeared to be totally seamless and random patterns with added variation control.

the fundamental question here is what is the justification to purchase this product, what makes it stand out from the veritable crowd of pattern and tile making plugins out there? or even from doing the job manually?

[Beamtracer]

If you watched the video closely, you would have noticed that it also has a tool for removing parts of the image that look repeated. You kind of zap them off, and it seems to synthesize new bits to fill it in.

Also, the video is a live screen grab of someone creating a tile texture on the run. They do it in a few seconds.

Now, I don't know about you, but it takes me a lot longer than that to make textures using the old Photoshop clone tool. A plug-in that does it in a few seconds will be worth its wait in gold.

It looks to me like this Luxology/Allegorithmic tool also does a better job than the PS clone tool, as it is synthesizing new patterns based on the sampled texture.

[leuey]

Well yes, you're right of course - there's not enough info (yet) to make any sort of purchasing decision. I'm just lamenting what I've scene as a trend around here (and if you've been around long enough, as I'm sure you have - it's kind of depressing). Nevermind - I thought it was cool - I hate manually making seamless textures and I guess I assume this will be a worthwhile tool. I shouldn't have assumed that others would necessarily share my excitement.

anyway..

-Greg



the fundamental question here is what is the justification to purchase this product, what makes it stand out from the veritable crowd of pattern and tile making plugins out there? or even from doing the job manually?

[samartin]

Well yes, you're right of course - there's not enough info (yet) to make any sort of purchasing decision. I'm just lamenting what I've scene as a trend around here (and if you've been around long enough, as I'm sure you have - it's kind of depressing). Nevermind - I thought it was cool - I hate manually making seamless textures and I guess I assume this will be a worthwhile tool. I shouldn't have assumed that others would necessarily share my excitement.

anyway..

-Greg

I think this looks pretty cool only cos' seamless texture making is a laborious process, but I'm not sure that the samples they did are seamless? Might have a peek by grabbing a luxo texture and using PS now ;)

[edit]

DAMN, I know the screen grab wasn't perfect but you can make out that the tiles are seamless. Excellent stuff, certainly heaps faster than using PS manually :)

[LeeGriggs]

love it! :applause:

[ThomasMahler]

I think that one looks pretty damn useful - especially for game developers.

[tozz]

Think it looks lovely and there's plenty of stuff you can use it for. Random and seemless + ability to change the texture yourself, don't even try to say the photoshop one comes close that :)

[Mike RB]

Interesting, I'd love to see this run on an image that dosent start out so uniform, but it does look cool.... Nice interface. :)

Mike

[MunCHeR]

Looks pretty damned impressive to me, wonder if theres a resolution limit?

MunCH

[Rook]

The first example turned out well. The second one, the dirt, looked bad. If it's a plugin that comes with modo that would be nice. If it is a external plugin you need to buy seperately... then it's pretty silly.

[voodoo89]

It does looks pretty cool, and the modo ui is a nice addition, but I think they should add some random rotation in. I know for most textures it would look weird, since the lighting would be off, but just a bit of rotation would probably be a good thing.

Well anyway that's just me. It's pretty awesome as it is, though a high res pic of the product would be appreciated, so it would be easier to see the quality of the end result.

[Phil Lawson]

The first example turned out well. The second one, the dirt, looked bad. If it's a plugin that comes with modo that would be nice. If it is a external plugin you need to buy seperately... then it's pretty silly.

It ships with 201. :)

[pichoo]

Some kind of a blend in between tiles is needed, otherwise not good enough.

[toonpang]

Damn! That looks awesome! :eek:

Is there a realease date for it?

-Kevin

[Nemoid]

looks very interesting to me, even if i agree on some more rotation/variation possibilities. however this plug demonstrates that Lux is realy interested in giving us pretty good painting tools in time, for texturing purposes.:)

[shehbahn]

1) anyone has a high res of the resulting textures ? i wouldn't mind doing some pixel inspection

2) i would -love- it if this thing had specifiable border conditions (ie i can make it tileable to another given image on a given side).

[Sonk]

having watch the Sig 05 video, this tool is totally badass!! :D cant wait to use it, to create unique texture maps for level design.

[JDex]

They have had a free version of the plugin for several months... I've used it a few times and it is quite cool. It can even generate animated normal maps (although I didn't play with that section much).

[phexitol]

Not really impressive to me, but that's only because I already use TextureMaker (http://www.texturemaker.com). Very interesting stuff overall.

http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/texture/ explains the theories and techniques for the tech-heads :D

[js33]

Right, most of us can make a tiled texture manually in photoshop in less than a few minutes so that's not a big deal to me. What I think is cool are the procedural textures that Allegorithmic makes.
Haven't seen all the Sig05 vid yet still waiting for it to finish downloading. :scream:

Cheers,
JS

[Beamtracer]

It seems to me that Luxology is really aiming to be the texturing tool of choice, for people to use as an add-on to their current 3D application.

I've just been thinking about all the texture related tools they've produced:
The new modo modeler comes with 1-Click UV creation, which is probably the easiest UV solution in town.
It has a paint program that paints directly on models.
It has microbump painting.
It has a procedural texture creator (also in conjunction with Allegorithmic) which produces some of the most organic looking procedural textures I've seen, with a unique function that lets you to click on features in that procedural texture and move them around.
Now they've added this new texture synthesizer plug-in that makes tiling and expanding images easy.

Then you can bake your textured model and export it back to your 3D program of choice. It's like a texturer's toolkit.

[Mike Pauza]

IMO a powerful "3D paint clone tool" would be a huge deal. When I'm touching up photographs in Photoshop most of my time is spent with cloning, so I imagine modo would be a dream to use if this tool really pans out.

Like Beamtracer, I'm thinking Lux might be brassy enough to go after ZBrush. :)



-Mike Pauza

[Mike Pauza]

I wonder if they've tried appoximating digital images with proceedurals. That could be cool because it would remove all tiling artifacts and create infinite resolution textures with almost zero data. Coupled with thier micro displacement that would be sweet. You could load up an image of somthing like dirt (or maybe an old person with wrinkles), and generate generic but good looking textures very easily.

A number of "fractal mathematician's" were working on that sort of technology a while back.


-Mike Pauza

[leuey]

Hmm, I will be sending all my texture making projects to you in the future. Do you charge by the minute? Seriously though, I find it a pita to jump out to photoshop and dick around with the clone tool - serious time killer for me. If I could set up a batch render on another workstation with a folder full of textures I'd be quite happy.

-Greg

Right, most of us can make a tiled texture manually in photoshop in less than a few minutes so that's not a big deal to me. . :scream:

Cheers,
JS

[Per-Anders]

IMO a powerful "3D paint clone tool" would be a huge deal. When I'm touching up photographs in Photoshop most of my time is spent with cloning, so I imagine modo would be a dream to use if this tool really pans out.

Like Beamtracer, I'm thinking Lux might be brassy enough to go after ZBrush. :)



-Mike Pauza

just out of interest (and not to derail), have you tried bodypaint? as that already has a nice clone tool etc in there. i also believe deep paint might have had a clone tool too, both apps capable of doing 3d painting (and uv'ing too though you need deepuv with deep paint).

come to that so does z-brush... in fact every 3d model painting app has a clone tool, and some sort of uving (even one click uving)

[Lyr]

come to that so does z-brush... in fact every 3d model painting app has a clone tool, and some sort of uving (even one click uving)[/edit]

Even Maya's 3d paint has a clone tool.

[lightblitter22]

It seems to me that Luxology is really aiming to be the texturing tool of choice, for people to use as an add-on to their current 3D application.

I hope they produce some innovation of their own at some point. Modo 1's modeling tools felt like a straight clone of C4D's modeler with a different looking UI and some scripting features. Modo 201 looks a lot like C4D/BP clone, right down to the procedurals, UV wizard and other features. It would be less obvious if Allegorithmic didn't put a procedural cloth example on their site in July, right after a procedural cloth contest ran in the C4D forum here in June or so. It seems pretty clear where their source of inspiration is coming from.:)

So keep getting excited about Lux's tools. They're bound to copy some more stuff from C4D soon and announce it like they've created another great breakthrough.

[Mike RB]

Uhh. ok. If anything I think saying Lux getting thier ideas from LW would be more appropriate. See what you want to see I guess.

Mike

[pthomas72]

Sweeeeeet!

[schuubars]

So keep getting excited about Lux's tools. They're bound to copy some more stuff from C4D soon and announce it like they've created another great breakthrough.


Hehe, maybe, but they sell it for less money...

[js33]

Hmm, I will be sending all my texture making projects to you in the future. Do you charge by the minute? Seriously though, I find it a pita to jump out to photoshop and dick around with the clone tool - serious time killer for me. If I could set up a batch render on another workstation with a folder full of textures I'd be quite happy.

-Greg

Hehehehe. Yeah 1 min of my time = 1 hour of billable time for texture making. :)

What I do if I need to make an image tileable and say 4 times bigger is simple. Make the canvas size 2x bigger in both directions. Then move your original to the upper left, copy to a new layer, mirror horizontal, position edges to match and merge those layers, copy to new layer then mirror vertical and position. Then flatten and use the clone tool on the seams if necessary. Only takes a couple of minutes.

Cheers,
JS

[leuey]

Yeah - but then you have to offset by 1/2 the vert. and horz. size and pixls and clone out those seams as well so it's truely seamless. Then you have to do some random cloning in the middle to add some varitey (what would be the point of making it bigger if it was already seamless and you don't add more variation?). Then you have to do the go into 16 bit mode overlay mode a copy/invert it blur it - getting rid of directional lighting, flatten, back to 8bit - offset again if you want back to the original pic.

It takes awhile. I don't know if the plugin will take care of directional lighting - it would be most useful if you could automate it to some degree (set it up to render a bunch at once and just walk away).

anyway..

-Greg

[js33]

Yeah it all depends on the image you are trying to clone. If it is smallish then you can use my technique to make it bigger. If you do the mirroring like I proposed you don't have to do the offset filter by 1/2v and 1/2h because you already mirrored it internally so the edges already match up.

But yeah if it has the ablility to batch create and make all your final textures the same size that would be sweet.

Cheers,
JS

[leuey]

That was good for a laugh.

-G



So keep getting excited about Lux's tools. They're bound to copy some more stuff from C4D soon and announce it like they've created another great breakthrough.

[ambient-whisper]

I hope they produce some innovation of their own at some point. Modo 1's modeling tools felt like a straight clone of C4D's modeler with a different looking UI and some scripting features. Modo 201 looks a lot like C4D/BP clone, right down to the procedurals, UV wizard and other features. It would be less obvious if Allegorithmic didn't put a procedural cloth example on their site in July, right after a procedural cloth contest ran in the C4D forum here in June or so. It seems pretty clear where their source of inspiration is coming from.:)

So keep getting excited about Lux's tools. They're bound to copy some more stuff from C4D soon and announce it like they've created another great breakthrough.

you do know that a huge part of the tools and functions for things like pre-highlighting are copied straight out of mirai, and plugins by other developers from other apps right? so saying that its maxon that developed, or even innovated all these nice tools, and comparing the texturer for modo to only bodypaint is just being ignorant.

[michaeli]

I hope they produce some innovation of their own at some point. Modo 1's modeling tools felt like a straight clone of C4D's modeler with a different looking UI and some scripting features. Modo 201 looks a lot like C4D/BP clone, right down to the procedurals, UV wizard and other features. It would be less obvious if Allegorithmic didn't put a procedural cloth example on their site in July, right after a procedural cloth contest ran in the C4D forum here in June or so. It seems pretty clear where their source of inspiration is coming from.:)

So keep getting excited about Lux's tools. They're bound to copy some more stuff from C4D soon and announce it like they've created another great breakthrough.

Second that, Lux guys are really good at marketing ! :)

[sacslacker]

They aren't bad at writing kick ass software either.

[gent_k]

you do know that a huge part of the tools and functions for things like pre-highlighting are copied straight out of mirai, and plugins by other developers from other apps right? so saying that its maxon that developed, or even innovated all these nice tools, and comparing the texturer for modo to only bodypaint is just being ignorant.

Exactly. Now if I were to be equally ignorant, it would turn out that Maxon copied those modelling features from Wings3D. :D

[ambient-whisper]

Exactly. Now if I were to be equally ignorant, it would turn out that Maxon copied those modelling features from Wings3D. :D

it wouldnt be too far from the truth though, since its more available than mirai/nendo is. so it could be used as a reference more so than the others. but im not saying who copied who. im merely saying that maxon wasnt exactly the innovator on most of the concepts in their modelling approach for version 9.

on another topic all together, just cuz i feel like typing...and its a bit weird to me, is how much of a deal modo users seem to make about modelling with edges, over not having them in LW. to me theres sooo much stuff past that, that makes more of a difference, than having edges to begin with. your selecting 99% of the time, so having a great selection system that aids you in the process is key. a visual interface for seeing your cage over the model, that is above anything in our current applications will be helpful. at the moment to compensate we have to use transparancy on our models to see our cage. there are better ways of doing this than using transparancy, i can assure you.

so many improvements need to happen in modelling applications its not funny. they are usable now, compared to 7 years ago, but still have a long way to go, in order for them to feel as easy as sketching on paper.

[Per-Anders]

hmm, i don't recall ever seeing anywhere mirai, nendo or wings having prehighlighted interactive edge loops or cutting tools... so many ideas do seem so obvious once they're done now don't they?

however i agree modo as a modeler feels more of lightwave modeler mk2 to me than an attempt to copy cinema (part of why i don't use it, sorry), though of course existing solutions are going to always be an influence on any application to a certain extent.

the painting tools are of course going to be influenced by bodypaint and other existing contemporary 3d painting products (i'm really not sure if painter 3d wasn't released before mirai if we must talk history of 3d painting tools). this is only natural. however i must concur with others that Luxology do have great marketing, making it sound like it's something new.

[leuey]

mmmm...the core of modelling in modo is the toolpipe and the workplane. Now, I don't know if C4D has those or not - but it don't think it does. All apps are in some part better b/c of what came before them - modo is no different. As far as modo users getting excited about edges - those are the LW guys who never really had edges before. So they're happy. : )

I'm glad C4D is around - they've rather quietly become a major player.


-Greg

[ambient-whisper]

(i'm really not sure if painter 3d wasn't released before mirai if we must talk history of 3d painting tools). this is only natural. however i must concur with others that Luxology do have great marketing, making it sound like it's something new.

i have no clue when mirai had released their 3d painter. i just remember bob coyne telling me that back in the symbollics days, he had coded a painting app into what was later implemented into mirai that did some 3d painting before photoshop was around, but how useful it was, i dont know. even the mirai 3d painter, while it feels good and fairly fast, isnt very flexible or useful for anything else but ps1 type game textures. too bad, cuz the potential was there.

i dont care who has it first. i just care who gets it right, first :D haha.

[lightblitter22]

mmmm...the core of modelling in modo is the toolpipe and the workplane. Now, I don't know if C4D has those or not - but it don't think it does.

The modeling side of C4D is straight poly/subD modeling, without a construction history, sort of like Silo, but the animation side is based on live, non-destructive generators that can be animated. Here's a quick example (sped up a bit and dropped down to 5fps to fit under the 5meg limit of the hosting site):

http://www.zippyvideos.com/175574159852265.html

Most C4D animation functions and 3rd party plugins follow this generator logic, so a lot of different tools can be combined into such live hierarchies while the parameters driving it at different levels remain fully animateable and modifyable.

[Per-Anders]

i dont care who has it first. i just care who gets it right, first :D haha.


I totally agree ;)

[williamsburroughs]

Well, one thing the video didn't cover was the fact that you can also combine multiple texture map sources to create completely unique maps which can be tiled. Imagine combining a wood texture with a grass texture. The plug-in will do the calculation for you and make it tileable.

In the tech demo @ Siggraph, it was shown, and I personally think this is a great asset for an artist to have.

That damn Lux crew just keep impressing the hell out of me with their technology and intent. These guys mean serious business!

Keep it up I say, and to all who can't see the big picture...well...keep your eyes close to your picture. :)

Cheers,

[el_diablo]

I just saw the plugin video. I may not look like much as a photoshop plugin but i think it would be very usefull as a tile modifier for tileable textures in shaders (to give it variation). Also if it can do what wb said its a pretty nice functionality to have.

[Mike Pauza]

just out of interest (and not to derail), have you tried bodypaint? as that already has a nice clone tool etc in there. i also believe deep paint might have had a clone tool too, both apps capable of doing 3d painting (and uv'ing too though you need deepuv with deep paint).

come to that so does z-brush... in fact every 3d model painting app has a clone tool, and some sort of uving (even one click uving)

I've demoed DeepPaint & ZBrush, but I've been waiting on something that's a little easier to use...don't really have time to learn another app.

I guess I'm just optimistic Lux will come up with a great painting system because they did such an awesome job with their modeler.



-Mike Pauza

[Beamtracer]

I want this plug-in right now!

I have to create a bunch of texture tiles. I'm doing it the old laborious way with Photoshop's clone tool. It would make things much faster if I had this Luxology image synthesis plug-in. Synthesizing patterns seems much more advanced than cloning patterns.

When is it out? November? I need it now!

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