Upgrade question

[JIII]

I know that from 7 to 8 you had to upgrade bodypaint but that fee was 50 bucks and they waived it for me thankfully.

I think there are seperate prices for upgrading an entire bundle, but they aren't that high.

Just a few thoughts,

-JIII

[Venkman]

It is about $300 to upgrade if you have every single module and bodypaint.

If you have some here and there, when official pricing is announced I'm sure you can call maxon and get a price. If you have only 3 or 4 modules I can't imagine it would be $300.

[Leonardo Vega]

:banghead: I just got off the phone with Maxon and I'm extremely disappointed. I paid big bucks for my R8.2 Studio Bundle. I want to upgrade my core to 9.1/9.5 (ALL I need is n-gons and Motion Builder support, that's it... I don't need Mocca 2 or Sketch and Toon). So I'm thinking $300 (just to upgrade the core to 9.1), not too bad. But now Maxon is telling me that if I want my modules to work I need to pay $50 per module (and that's only for the ones that have had NO change, so it's $50 for just a R9.1 serial #) and up to $395 for modules that have been updated. They said it's best to upgrade to R9.1 Studio Bundle for $900! And when 9.5 comes out, they said it will be $1,150.00

So now I have to decide... either 9.5 or keep my modules. Why can't I just upgrade to 9.5 and keep my old modules? I feel practically pushed into buying something else like XSI Foundation for $500. I can't fork over $1000 everytime a new release comes out that I need.

I feel disturbed.

- Leo

[Jonj1611]

Another bad pricing move by Maxon I guess. Maybe you could speak with them and ask for a discount or something, but across the forums I see a lot of people looking at other software packages, even some of the hardcore C4D users which I found suprising.

I currently have saved enough to repurchase 9.5 when it is launched but I must admit other software and it's pricing is looking quite tempting.

What to do......................

Thanks
Jon

[wbj]

Why can't I just upgrade to 9.5 and keep my old modules?


For technical reasons - it is impossible. The core moduls have to be on the same version level.

To give you an analogon: Lets say you 're a user of Windows NT 4.0 server. Would you seriously expect, that it's enough to upgrade to Windos XP Home (because you say: I don't need any of the features included in the the newer OS server version modules) and still get the server functions?.

Best regards,

wbj

[dann_stubbs]

:banghead: I just got off the phone with Maxon and I'm extremely disappointed. I paid big bucks for my R8.2 Studio Bundle. I want to upgrade my core to 9.1/9.5 (ALL I need is n-gons and Motion Builder support, that's it... I don't need Mocca 2 or Sketch and Toon). So I'm thinking $300 (just to upgrade the core to 9.1), not too bad. But now Maxon is telling me that if I want my modules to work I need to pay $50 per module (and that's only for the ones that have had NO change, so it's $50 for just a R9.1 serial #) and up to $395 for modules that have been updated. They said it's best to upgrade to R9.1 Studio Bundle for $900! And when 9.5 comes out, they said it will be $1,150.00

So now I have to decide... either 9.5 or keep my modules. Why can't I just upgrade to 9.5 and keep my old modules? I feel practically pushed into buying something else like XSI Foundation for $500. I can't fork over $1000 everytime a new release comes out that I need.

- Leo

you could just purchase a new 9.5 core for less then the upgrade cost and then you have two seats giving you what you need.

honestly the cheapest way is to get the studio bundle and keep it up to date it seems.

it is no different with any other apps so don't get too "grass is greener" it may be cheaper to jump ship but upgrades two levels back will hit you the same. to upgrade maya complete two levels back will cost you $1699 - how would you feel if you just forked over the $899 upgrade in march only to be hit with another $899 upgrade in september for maya complete (more for unlimited of course)

dann

[xeno3d]

Another bad pricing move by Maxon I guess. Maybe you could speak with them and ask for a discount or something, but across the forums I see a lot of people looking at other software packages, even some of the hardcore C4D users which I found suprising.

I currently have saved enough to repurchase 9.5 when it is launched but I must admit other software and it's pricing is looking quite tempting.

What to do......................

Thanks
Jon

I'm not starting anything but I am curious as to what software/company has pricing comparible to Maxons? The only one I can think of is Lightwave. When I came over from LW to C4D I looked at 3ds max, Maya and XSI. From what I saw their upgrade prices were almost double the price of what I have seen so far with Maxon. That doesn't include maintenance contracts or subscriptions either. Granted you can get XSI foundation for $500.

Like I said, I'm not starting anyhting but for me, Maxons pricing is good for me and many others. The others "seem" better for large studios.

my $.02 :)

Kevin

[Leonardo Vega]

The price itself is not bad if I wanted to update all my modules. But I don't, I just want the core updated. And to pay any amount for software that isn't even being updated at all seems odd. It's like I'm being punished for buying the studio bundle, "oh you got them all, well from now on you will have to update them all or bye bye modules". Yikes!

Max and Maya are definitely way too high also for me. XSI seems to be the only option for me. I get ngons, motionbuilder support, excellent charanimation, clothes, hair... and for $500.00 full version. It's a tough choice for me now.

- Leo

[AdamT]

You don't get clothes or hair with the $500 version of XSI.

[Personne]

Do you considering Lightwave you can get it for only $795.00 without any modules to purchase separatly.

[pit]

Do you considering Lightwave you can get it for only $795.00 without any modules to purchase separatly.

Personne: I think you are missing the point.

vegabros - you are performing a 1.5 version jump. The rough math if you would upgrade xsi foundation 1.5 times is: $600 for upgrades + the initial $500 = $1100.

Sell your Studio bundle and buy the core seems to be the only logical conclusion, if you do not want or need the added functions that the modules offer.

Cheers

[Jonj1611]

Well, it seems that this type of question could go on & on.

I am a hobbyist personally, so whether I get 9.5 now or 10 later is really up to me, I am not tied down to any particular product and "need" to upgrade and pay money every few months which I can understand if you need C4D as your main business tool.

I like C4D, always have. I am going to be doing that online course, so I will probably get the educational bundle and get 10 when it comes out.

Jon

[Erik Heyninck]

What you say right now is like saying that you want the CPU's of a G5 2.7 in your G4, or dual xeons in your monoCPU PIII board. This is not possible.

I don't see any problem in this upgrade price. Up to now, I bought separate modules according to learning and need. To go from core 8.5 and AR1 to 9 and AR2, I had to upgrade each module separately. Afterwards, I had to buy full price for Mocca2 and TP.
Maxon gives the cd's with modules that are not upgraded for free for a limited period of time. Afterwards, you have to pay for them. This is also normal policy.

And if you want to change Cinema's functionality for something else you may well be disappointed in a few months. Or have found the (nex) love of your life.

[TRick]

Correct me if I am wrong:

C4D Studio 8.2->9.5 = $1150
MAX subscription = $450 /yr (with a full point release - almost - every year, and all inbetween releases and other modules for free)
LW upgrades = $395 (mostly packaged as a deal with some other soft and inbetween releases free)

Since 4 years I'm seriously considering C4D as an additional tool for my work but am still not convinced by its workflow and capabilities (This is not something I want to discuss here), but seeing these prices I guess it will never be. Especially after thinking MAX had the most arrogant attitude in todays pricing wars. I guess it's all about the amount of users that are still paying these prices without a hickup. Even if there were 100 complaints about it here, it still would be neglectable to Maxon :D Some years ago, C4D Studio surely had a very good price/quality ratio, but today it has lost that advantage.

(I could consider base packages here, but then I also have to consider XSI Foundation/Essentials, Maya Complete and Modo. Do you seriously think base C4D is competition here?)

[Leonardo Vega]

AdamT: Here are some of XSI Foundation's Features...



Native High-Performance Subdivision Surfaces
Advanced Character Rigging & Animation
Full Cloth & Particles
2-CPU XSI Rendering with mental ray® v.3.4
Ultimapper Natural Normal-Map Generation
Easy Migration Tools for Maya Users
I don't see hair though.

Pit: I don't know if I'm mistaken, but don't most companies offer an upgrade price and to qualify you just need have an earlier version? So it doesn't matter if you have v.3 or v.4, upgrading to v.5 is the same price. I know Photoshop is like that. Although obviously there's a limit, I doubt you can jump more then 3 versions for the same price.


Erick: I think a better comp would be upgrading your motherboard and being forced to buy a new video card, ram, cpu, hd, etc :)

Now if I was getting update modules, then it wouldn't be such a problem. But why pay $50 per module that hasn't been touched and is just getting a new serial number?

I barely use my modules except for Mocca, so I hate paying $600 to update them or get new serial #'s. But at the same time, I did pay for them so I don't want to loose them. But maybe selling my studio bundle isn't such a bad idea...

- Leo

[dann_stubbs]

Correct me if I am wrong:

C4D Studio 8.2->9.5 = $1150
MAX subscription = $450 /yr (with a full point release - almost - every year, and all inbetween releases and other modules for free)


i seriously doubt that you could pay the $450 and jump up two or more versions of max - alias used to make you pay back support if you did it this way. so if max did the same to upgrade from two versions back would be $900

which is exactly the cost the person was quoted and you are saying max is cheaper? i'm not sure i understand...

i personally wish maxon dropped the modules and just went with full package deals - like base, XL, studio, and production. then you could just upgrade between them instead of web of possibilities now and this type of frustration... but it is not always greener elsewhere no matter how it looks.

dann

[TRick]

...so if max did the same to upgrade from two versions back would be $900...

Two versions ? An upgrade from r8.x to r9 still costs $895. To me that is just ONE version back. And after that you STILL have to pay extra for a .5 release ? Having seen the features for this paid C4D update I have way more value with the free ClothFX, HairFX, Mental Ray 3.4 and Viz Extensions I got for free with my MAX-subscription. Again: since there are many users that choose to start buying seperate modules it will be hard for them to say goodbye just because upgrade prices are relatively high. Professional Studio users may be a little disappointed by the upgrade-pricing but it surely is not TOO expensive. But these are the times of using multiple packages and it is just a matter of time that these users do the cost-effective upgrades ONLY. Just look at the cost for the AR module compared to the fRender-Stage2 plugin :eek: Featurewise AR is a very bare and parameterless renderer compared to fR, especially for (currently) the same price...

[pit]

TRick: Go here -> http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=6

and be happy you didn´t buy Cinema :p ;) :)

[TRick]

For the people that CAN read between the lines: I really see good things in C4D, it's just that I also see a regressing price/quality ratio in the upgrades:shrug:which keeps me from adding the tool to my pipeline (= FormZ, Modo, LW, MAX)

[RangTang]

Hopefully, as the competition heats up, Maxon will review its module marketing. The only reason to buy the C4D Studio verson is that you get unlimited rendering nodes. If you don't need these don't buy it.

Lightwave was the best, user friendly upgrade, but after what happened with version 8, I think they have to earn users trust back.
Modo will eventually be a full package. The new 201 version seems a good choice, renderer is one of the best, if your not doing animation.
Mira programers are still working on releasing a new version, but no release date.
The new ZBrush, soon to be released, will have an interesting rigging/posing system.
For a cheap full animation package how about Silo with Messiah?
Bang for the buck award goes to XSI Foundation, but it is tied forever to a single computer.
For subscription 3DMax is the best of the big boys, it is even reasonable (the upgrade cost) when compared to all packages.
Maya is the most expensive for upgrading, but for resources such as plugins, scripts, rigs, and learning materials, it is the best. Don't upgrade and you still have a complete working package, and then after a few years, buy a new version.

There are choices, capitalism at its finest.:wise:

[moka.studio]

Hopefully, as the competition heats up, Maxon will review its module marketing. The only reason to buy the C4D Studio verson is that you get unlimited rendering nodes. If you don't need these don't buy it.

And BOdypaint, and Dynamics, and Sketch and Toon....


Modo will eventually be a full package. The new 201 version seems a good choice, renderer is one of the best, if your not doing animation.
Mira programers are still working on releasing a new version, but no release date.

I am really impressed my the preivews I have seen of Modo 201. But are you sure about this? Does it fully support Multipass renderings for exemple? ( someting c4d is very good at).


I have also waited a long time to see what the new Mirai will be like ( if it ever surfaces...)

[Thalaxis]

Bang for the buck award goes to XSI Foundation, but it is tied forever to a single computer.


It's not tied to a single computer, it's tied to a single license file which is easy enough to relocate when necessary. You don't get licenses enough to use bucket rendering with multiple machines, though.

[RangTang]

BodyPaint is good, I think you add that at $495.00.
Dynamics is useless, and sketch & toon is alright if you need it, but I think that there are many plugins that have the ability to project and render splines to get the handdrawn look. All of the modules, except BodyPaint, bought separately are overpriced. The best deal is the XL version.

Multipass in C4D is a thing of beauty.:love:

[RangTang]

It's not tied to a single computer, it's tied to a single license file which is easy enough to relocate when necessary.

Oops! Thank you for the correction. But you still can't use XSI on a laptop and a workstation without requesting a new license each time you want to switch (ok, go ahead and correct me again).

[Thalaxis]

Oops! Thank you for the correction. But you still can't use XSI on a laptop and a workstation without requesting a new license each time you want to switch (ok, go ahead and correct me again).

I've been doing exactly that, as has the guy I'm working with.

[brammelo]

I'm sorry, but I think I am missing the point. If you didn't need those modules in the Studio Bundle, then why did you buy the Studio Bundle?

[Kuroyume0161]

I'm sorry, but I think I am missing the point. If you didn't need those modules in the Studio Bundle, then why did you buy the Studio Bundle?

My thoughts exactly! :) As others have stated, sell the 8.2 Studio bundle and get the core 9.5 with whatever modules you need. I started with 7.3 XL and have stayed with that, only adding BodyPaint (which isn't 'good', it is one of the 'best' - up there with Deep UV). If ever any of the other modules (Dynamics, S&T) or unlimited render nodes were really needed, it would be at the expense of a client willing to support the purchase for the end results.

[unseenthings]

sketch & toon is alright if you need it, but I think that there are many plugins that have the ability to project and render splines to get the handdrawn look

No offense, but you clearly haven't played with S&T very much. There's SOOOOOOO much more to it than that.

I picked up the studio bundle last november and have no regrets whatsoever. I'm excited about 9.5 coming out and will pick that up as well as soon as it's available.

[Erik Heyninck]

In fact, I was a bit worried where this kind of thread was hiding now that 9.5 came out. I guess that if you do a search here on the forum, you'll find lots of arguments -those that are used here and some even more clever (sic)- about 8.5 or 9.
If you want to complain, complain to Maxon. We are simply innocent users of Cinema and we like it. So stop whining and buy whatever you fancy, be it Max or Maya unlimited or XSIand be happy with it.
No one forces anyone to buy anything. If you don't like, don't pay for it. If you like and the price is too high, welcome in the club of 99,9% of humanity. We all have wishes we can't afford. More than half of humanity simply for having enough food and a decent roof above their heads.

[amoeba]

My problem with this type of upgrade is that Maxon seem to change the core code that stops certain modules working with newer versions of the main program. Yes XSI and Maya may be expensive to upgrade but the core code remains the same, and frankly they offer more tools than C4D, so you may be better off using those than waiting for C4D to catch up. I can resist the upgrades as most of the time they seem a little too gimmicky without correcting the old faults or offering major benefits such as usable dynamics or character animation tools. However you will still need to learn the new programs which will take time.

[Leonardo Vega]

Why did I buy the studio bundle? Because it was a good deal at the time. I wanted C4D, Body Paint and Mocca, so the price of buying those versus the studio bundle wasn't so big. So I opted to pay a little more and have all the modules.

I've enjoyed it and never complained about the price at all. But here's my point, why do I have to upgrade all my modules just to get them to work? Why would Maxon not make C4D 9.1 or 9.5 compatible with the older modules? They did CREATE those modules, I don't see why I can't just use Cinema 4D R9.5 with my old Body Paint R2 and Mocca. I can understand 3rd party plugins not working, but Maxon's own modules won't work neither?

i'm not criticizing anyone, I'm just expressing my feelings. Actually I was hoping someone from Maxon would reply and explain this to me.

- Leo

[AdamT]

It's a bit of a Catch-22 there. The nice thing about the modules is that they work seamlessly with the core program, but you can't do that without building in a certain amount of interdependence.

I don't know what you mean about the other programs not changing their "core code". If they aren't then they aren't doing meaningful upgrades.

[amoeba]

"I don't know what you mean about the other programs not changing their "core code". If they aren't then they aren't doing meaningful upgrades".


You can build on the existing code without changing the original code. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn't the material changes in the 8.5 upgrade stop the 8.2 users from reading the 8.5 file? Did those new material options warrant a complete redesign? I bet the new (9.whatever) light changes will be the same? Draw your own conclusions.

[Kuroyume0161]

I think that the misunderstanding, which is probably in part Maxon's fault, is that the modules are independent of version. They are not. You can get what modules you need, separately or bundled, for the version being sold. But to expect the modules to be completely independent of version upgrades is unrealistic.

I agree (and have agreed) with others that the 'modularized' approach that Maxon introduced was a bad idea. Should have stuck with the various bundles.

But since this is the current state, all of the modules should be updated (even superficially), costs respective to the updating. Thus, a change of version number, a couple of code changes (if any), and a stamp of approval for basically the same module to work with the new version shouldn't cost anything - it should be a free disc with new serials to the upgrading, registered user. That sounds reasonable. Maybe charge $10 or $20 as a 'processing/shipping' fee. And the more 'updating' to the module, the more the upgrade cost. Then, handle straight bundle upgrades considering the accumulated module upgrade cost and apply the appropriate discount. It's confusing, but not rocket science...

[AdamT]

You can build on the existing code without changing the original code. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn't the material changes in the 8.5 upgrade stop the 8.2 users from reading the 8.5 file? Did those new material options warrant a complete redesign? I bet the new (9.whatever) light changes will be the same? Draw your own conclusions.

So you're saying that when other programs are upgraded they remain completely forward compatible? So, for example, you could open a Max 7 file in Max 3 and everything would be just fine? I can't say you're wrong from personal experience, but I seriously doubt it.

It's theoretically possible to keep piling new code on top of legacy code, but eventually the program will become so bloated it will be ridiculous. Not to mention that it takes a lot of extra work, which of course slows development and increases costs.

[Leonardo Vega]

Exactly! If it's a superficial update, just changing the numbers, then it should be free or at a minimal cost, but $50?? And I thought modules were independent of the version number until now.

AdamT: Forwards compatibility is definitely not reasonable thing to expect, especially jumping a few versions up. But how about backwards compatibility? I think that's something that is very possible. I can open older C4D files without a problem, so I don't see how C4D R9.1 can't work with older modules too.

I almost feel that they could have made it backwards compatible, but for marketing reasons chose not to. Which puts a sour image in my mind.

Man, I don't even know how much to sell my studio bundle for. I have everything in mint condition. Would $1,500.00 sound reasonable? I figure R9.1 Studio is $3,000.00 and the upgrade from R8.2 Studio to R9.1 is $900.00. So $1,500 + $900 = $2400.00, so essentially you can buy R9.1 Studio for $2,400.00 and save $600.00. Let me know what you guys think.

- Leo

[Leonardo Vega]

Now my version of BodyPaint R2 should work with C4D 9.5, because I think BP comes in both module and standalone (so the standalone should work with R9.5).

- Leo

[Thalaxis]

I almost feel that they could have made it backwards compatible, but for marketing reasons chose not to. Which puts a sour image in my mind.


If they update their core code, they'd in most cases have to at least recompile the code in the modules. It's more likely a software architecture thing than marketing, because the modules integrate so tightly into the core.

I think the module idea is not working well, since it's not accomplishing anything beyond increasing the cost and complexity of updates.

[talos72]

I like using C4D mostly for image making or illustration, so I have no need for Dynamics...go check out Houdini 8 Beta's DOPs and you will see the next gen dynamics.

That said, I have all moduls for C4D except dynamics, and frankly do not need it. I like maxon's tools but I do have gripe about their upgrade pricings. I don't think I should have to pay $50 to update modules so they could run with the new version. If the module was to have new features or was a real upgrade, I can see paying for an official upgrade. But why should I have to pay $50 for Sketch and Toon just so it could work with 9.5 (currently I have 9.1). Module updates should be free, unless there is official version upgrade or new features. I remember last year this modular pricing issue became a bit of a mess for various users last year.

[AdamT]

I don't know how well it's working, but I think some people like it and according to Srek Maxon's sales are doing well....

Vegabros, you're wrong. BP2 and C4D are completely intertwined. BP standalone is simply configured to run as a standalone. Analogy: a P4 3 Ghz cpu and a P4 3.6 Ghz cpu run at different speeds, but their core architecture is identical.

[Leonardo Vega]

AdamT: So are you saying that a person using Body Paint R2 (standalone) with XSI, can upgrade XSI as many times as he wants and never pay an upgrade price for BP R2, yet a C4D customer WILL have to pay an upgrade cost everytime he upgrades C4D?

If so, I think Maxon is crazy.

- Leo

[Incarnadine]

For me the module approach is definitely the way to go. I am a hobbyest driving Core/AR to produce still images based upon what I see inside my head. If I ever decide to add a new function I can add just what I need. Sorry chaps, but it does work for me.

[Leonardo Vega]

I'm all for buying just what you need. But do you like the idea of having to pay to upgrade every module you ever bought, just so they work with a new version of C4D?

For example you own C4D & AR. Now let's say you want to upgrade the core to 9.5, but you don't want to upgrade AR or let's even say AR hasn't even been touched, you feel good paying $50.00? And you will pay that $50.00 every single time you want to upgrade your core.

If anything, this whole setup will make people think twice about buying modules. You have to ask yourself many times, "Do I REALLY need it? Because I'll be forced to upgrade it everytime the core is upgraded".

- Leo

[talos72]

I don't have an issue with a modular architecture, but as mentioned why should someone be charged $50 just so an old module could run on a new version of C4D unless it is an official upgrade for that module (ie. new features, etc...). It is the little fee here and the little fee there that many are not keen about. It may not be intentional on Maxon's part, but the little $50 here and there for what is essentially an application Patch is questionable.

[AdamT]

Yeah, I definitely understand the concern. It certainly makes the bundles more attractive than an a la carte approach, since you have a one-price upgrade with the bundles. I would certainly support a decision to charge only a handling fee for modules that haven't been enhanced. In the present case BP2 *has* been enhanced, so $50 seems perfectly reasonable.

[amoeba]

"you could open a Max 7 file in Max 3"

I don't recall saying or giving that impression that at all, and the example you gave was a jump from Max7 from Max3! I would hope there would be massive improvements. But with Max, the core modelling tools have remained the same for many versions (editable mesh, not edit poly) I was talking of a minor upgrade from 8.2 to 8.5.
I feel these minor upgrades could be held back for a major re-write and a more substantial upgrade. If you look at the C4D core modelling tools, what major upgrades have there been since version 7 that warrants a rewrite of the core code? N-Gons for example, didn’t really work that well, a guy from Maxon told me people were better of learning to model with quads. How many rewrites have there been how many times have Maxon changed the GUI? They appear to re-invent the program to draw in new customers. Look at how C4D appearance has changed from Version 4. How much has the GUI changed in Maya, Max, Lightwave etc? We all run out and buy the latest version, only to scratch our heads and think why have they renamed this function or changed the location of certain functions. Every time it’s a brand new learning curve. What about the modules that haven’t been changed or updated, for example the dynamics module. Surely it would have to be rewritten if the core program was built with new code? It is hasn’t why should we pay more for the same module?

[Leonardo Vega]

First, I want to say that I have no hard feelings towards the people who work at Maxon. I just don't support the modular upgrading system (obviously not the sales rep's responsibility). I love Cinema 4D, if I didn't... I would have dumped it and would have never started this thread. In other words I'm trying to keep my Cinema 4D, I just don't want the scars...

Anways, I just spoke to Maxon and here are the facts (all prices can be found on the website:

Upgrading from Cinema 4D R8.2...

Cinema 4D R9.1 - $295.00
Body Paint R2 - $50.00
Advanced Render - $195.00 (it's been enhanced)
Mocca - $395.00 (obligated to go to Mocca R2, can't use Mocca R1)
Thinking Particles - $50.00
Dynamics - $50.00

Basically, it's $50 for the modules that haven't been touched. And the ones with enhancements have a higher cost (ex. AR $195.00).

When R9.5 comes out I would have to pay $295.00 for the core, but no $50.00 maintenance fees.

That's the scoop. Everyone's welcome to share their opinion, but I definitely don't want a flame thread. Although my head bashing icon (on my 2nd post) probably didn't set the right tone :)

- Leo

p.s. On a positive note by paying the $900 for the complete studio upgrade, I do get sketch & toon (which is like $500).

[janosch1234]

Hi amoeba,

"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat"
Napoleon Bonaparte

Napoleon was defeated in the end, you dont know?
;)

(Btw. i like maxons upgrade policy ... just ordered yesterday the 9.5-update & 3 add modules. Not kidding)

[amoeba]

"Napoleon was defeated in the end, you dont know?"

He wasn’t was he? That would have been Waterloo then. It’s kinda saying if you are scared of a project (modelling, animating etc) the end result will probably turn out crap. It was either that quote or Oscar Wilde "I have nothing to declare except my genius" I might change to the latter as it befits me.http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

I don’t understand why the old modules that haven’t been changed can still work with the "new" core program. Mmm

[RickBarrett]

I don't want to get mixed up in the pricing discussion, but I would like to clear up a couple of misconceptions that seem to be floating around in this thread. Vegabros' most recent post appears accurate, but just to clarify a couple of points:

1. Modules must be upgraded at the same time as the core - sometimes this requires a new serial number (as with most full releases) and sometimes it just requires an update (as with most dot releases). If modules aren't upgraded, they won't work with the new release (although you're not forfeiting your license to use them with the previous release). There's technical reasons for this, and believe me it's not a lot of fun for us to reissue everyone serial numbers each time this becomes necessary. Keep in mind that typically even modules without significant updates enjoy some usability enhancements related to interface improvements with each new release.

2. As with 8 to 8.5, there's no additional fee to upgrade modules from R9 to R9.5. The upgrade price is the same regardless of how many modules you own. The module upgrades typically aren't required for dot upgrades, just full releases.

3. BP is licensed as either a standalone or a module. You can't use your module as a standalone and vise-versa (although the C4D 9.5 and BP 2.5 file formats are compatible). Also, the BP standalone is a bit more expensive than the module version.

4. MAXON has a history of providing free dot releases (8.1, 8.2, 9.1) that include valuable features in addition to bug fixes (HDRI support, camera enhancements, etc).

I appreciate Vegabros' desire to discuss pricing opinions without allowing this thread to dissolve into a flame thread. Please don't take this as an effort to quiet discussion or invalidate your feelings - I just spotted some appparent misconceptions and wanted to make sure they weren't leading the discussion astray.

Rick Barrett
MAXON USA

(edited because it's good to get peoples name's right - even if they are forum handles - my apologies)

[wbj]

But here's my point, why do I have to upgrade all my modules just to get them to work? Why would Maxon not make C4D 9.1 or 9.5 compatible with the older modules? They did CREATE those modules, I don't see why I can't just use Cinema 4D R9.5 with my old Body Paint R2 and Mocca. I can understand 3rd party plugins not working, but Maxon's own modules won't work neither?

vegabros,

if you had the slightest idea about C++ programming language, you would not ask this. To give you an idea:

Let's say you have a module version 8.2 where a C++ class has 30 methods and 20 variables. The core version 8.2 uses the same class definition. Now lets assume the c++ class in the core has been extended to 34 methods and 25 variables (e.g. because of ambient occlusion code).

As the 8.2 module doesn't know about these class changes, it will make false asumptions about the size and structure of this class (result could be a memory leak or crash, etc.).

Now you might reply: They could just strip down the code from the new module I didn't want or they could maintain the old code bases ( v. 8.1, 8.2, 8.5, 9.0, 9.1 and 9.5). May I ask you: Who should pay for this effort?

Best regards,

wbj

[talos72]

Thanks for the info Rick. I do have a question. I picked up a pamphlet at Sig from Maxon booth with upgrade info. If I am not mistaken, It actually mentioned that going from BP 2 to 2.5 is $100, unless as you mentioned there is no dot version upgrade fee (I own BP modular) and the $100 is for the stand alone version.

Also, I have Sketch and Toon with my 9.1, does that mean there is no fee at all for me to be able to use Sketch in 9.5? Not even $50 CD for the update patch?

I would appreciate further info. Thanks

[AdamT]

> I don't recall saying or giving that impression that at all, and
> the example you gave was a jump from Max7 from Max3! I would
> hope there would be massive improvements. But with Max, the core
> modelling tools have remained the same for many versions
> (editable mesh, not edit poly) I was talking of a minor upgrade
> from 8.2 to 8.5.

IMO that's a misconception. While the overall improvements might not have been earth-shattering, there was a *major* upgrade/change to the material system. In particular, the SLA shaders, which were originally acquired as an XL7 plugin from Bhodinut/Darf, were fully integrated into R8's significantly upgraded GUI. It simply had to be done.

> I feel these minor upgrades could be held back for a major re-
> write and a more substantial upgrade.

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but personally I'm glad that the SLA shaders--which are totally central to the Cinema experience--were integrated into Cinema's new interface ASAP.

> If you look at the C4D
> core modelling tools, what major upgrades have there been since
> version 7 that warrants a rewrite of the core code? N-Gons for
> example, didn’t really work that well, a guy from Maxon told me
> people were better of learning to model with quads.

Err, what *are* you talking about? ngons work perfectly and were one of, if not *the*, most requested features. I don't want to get into the whole "what's the benefits of ngons" discussion, as that's a whole 'nother discussion, but I think you'll find yourself in a very small minority if you think it wasn't worth the effort to rewrite the modeling core.

> How many
> rewrites have there been how many times have Maxon changed the
> GUI? They appear to re-invent the program to draw in new
> customers. Look at how C4D appearance has changed from Version 4.
> How much has the GUI changed in Maya, Max, Lightwave etc?

Different parts of the program have been rewritten as required. If you're holding up Maya, Max, and LW as good GUI examples we will definitely have to agree to disagree. A better example is XSI. Softimage apparently felt GUI was sufficiently important that they altogether terminated development of Softimage--one of the most successful 3D apps in history--and started with a completely fresh slate with XSI. Modo is another good example of what former LW programmers could do once they abandoned LW's outdated interface. Max's interface is just godawful.

> We all
> run out and buy the latest version, only to scratch our heads
> and think why have they renamed this function or changed the
> location of certain functions. Every time it’s a brand new
> learning curve.

Honestly, if it bothers you that much, and you don't see an advantage to the new features ... DON'T UPGRADE!

> What about the modules that haven’t been changed
> or updated, for example the dynamics module. Surely it would
> have to be rewritten if the core program was built with new code?
> It is hasn’t why should we pay more for the same module?

As Rick said, it's one $50 fee for *all* modules that haven't been significantly upgraded. It's an annoyance, but it doesn't seem unreasonable simply from a handling/shipping/CD pressing standpoint.

[RickBarrett]

Thanks for the info Rick. I do have a question. I picked up a pamphlet at Sig from Maxon booth with upgrade info. If I am not mistaken, It actually mentioned that going from BP 2 to 2.5 is $100, unless as you mentioned there is no dot version upgrade fee (I own BP modular) and the $100 is for the stand alone version.

The $100 is for the standalone upgrade (I'm taking you're word for the amount as I'm at home and don't have the pricing in front of me - but that sounds about right). AFAIK, there's no fee for the BP module upgrade, though I'd have to double-check Monday to be sure.


Also, I have Sketch and Toon with my 9.1, does that mean there is no fee at all for me to be able to use Sketch in 9.5? Not even $50 CD for the update patch?


That's correct. Just as with R8.5, the 9.5 upgrade is delivered as an additional "module"-style serial number, so your MAXON modules and third-party plugins shouldn't require re-serialization, and thus no $50 fee. I haven't seen the installers yet, but I imagine a single installer updates any modules you've installed, just as with 8.5. Your single R9-9.5 upgrade fee should cover everything.

BTW - I should mention that pricing and policies do differ somewhat between MAXON offices. I can only speak definitively for MAXON USA (and even then I'm sometimes not so definite).

HTH,
Rick Barrett
MAXON USA

[Incarnadine]

That's what i got from discussions with Paul Babb. Only problem is I can't find anywhere in the site to actually order the 9 to 9.5 upgrade. Any idea when the store will be ready?

[RickBarrett]

Only problem is I can't find anywhere in the site to actually order the 9 to 9.5 upgrade. Any idea when the store will be ready?

Ugh. Don't get me started on the shop. I'll look into it this next week. Thanks for your patience.

Rick Barrett
MAXON USA

(edited because spelling is good too)

[Incarnadine]

Lol, no problem, thanks and have a good weekend.

[Thalaxis]

AdamT: So are you saying that a person using Body Paint R2 (standalone) with XSI, can upgrade XSI as many times as he wants and never pay an upgrade price for BP R2, yet a C4D customer WILL have to pay an upgrade cost everytime he upgrades C4D?

If so, I think Maxon is crazy.


Not at all. One of the advantages for BodyPaint is its clean integration with Cinema4D, so if you want to keep using BodyPaint integrated into Cinema4D, you'll have to keep it up to date.

If you're using the standalone BodyPaint with XSI, then there's no reason that you would ever have to upgrade BodyPaint until you reach a point where exchanging data between XSI and BodyPaint is no longer feasible because of technology differences (like if XSI suddenly gained hierarchical SubD's or something wacky like that that just didn't translate correctly to a package without Hierarchical SubD's).

[Leonardo Vega]

Thanks Rick! :D Great to hear a voice from Maxon.

About Body Paint, if I remember correctly I was told I would need to pay $100 to go from R2 to 2.5. Check just in case :)

I do think the modular system can be confusing though. I think most people don't realize that they are forced to "maintain" their modules if they choose to upgrade the core. I really want n-gons and motionbuilder support. But I don't want to loose my modules. And I can't afford $900.00 ... haha what a choice to make.

WBJ: you're right I have no clue about programming, but somehow I don't see backwards compatibility being such an impossible feature. Windows XP can run Windows 95 applications just fine (and WinXP is a different beast all together). I've seen many applications that can run files from earlier versions, etc.

I just feel if it's possible, that Maxon would have a much happier community if we weren't forced to upgrade things we don't want to upgrade. The modular system is all about you choose what you want, what you need... but then the reality is you will never again choose what you want and what you need (unless you want give up the module). For example, I don't want Mocca R2, but if I want to keep Mocca R1 and upgrade to R9.1, I'm forced to get Mocca R2. Little things like that can make you feel bad because who likes to buy something they don't need?

My 2 cents :)

- Leo

[AdamT]

Hi Vegabros,
You seem to be mixing discussions of backwards and forwards compatibility. In fact, Cinema has always been backwards compatible, meaning that newer versions can run older files with little or no ill effects. That's also true of R9.5. There might be some slight differences due to the improved lights, but in my experience old files render 90-100% the same. Also in my experience, R9.5 files seem to work fine in R9.1. Obviously I can't say whether that's true for *every* file; it's just what I've found in my own tests.

These days there are lots of Win XP apps that won't run in Win 95. And don't even get me started on Apple, which seems to break break compatibility every 3-4 months. That's the price of progress.

[wbj]

WBJ: you're right I have no clue about programming, but somehow I don't see backwards compatibility being such an impossible feature. Windows XP can run Windows 95 applications just fine (and WinXP is a different beast all together).


Vegabros,

the analogy is wrong. Cinema's core modules would compare to Windows system DLLs (and to give you an example: you can't exchange a Windows XP graphic card driver by a Windows 98 graphic card driver - the internal class structure and program flow has changed to much...) while Cinema's plugins would roughly compare to Windows applications.

Best regards,

wbj

[Srek]

About Body Paint, if I remember correctly I was told I would need to pay $100 to go from R2 to 2.5. Check just in case :)

If you have BodyPaint R2 Standalone this is correct, as Rick pointed alreadyout, but if you have the BP 2 module and are upgrading from 9.1 to 9.5 there is no additional fee for the module, just the general upgrade costs from 9.1 to 9.5.
Your setup of using CINEMA 4D with a standalone version of BodyPaint 3D is very uncommen and not recommanded.

Cheers
Björn

[dann_stubbs]

And don't even get me started on Apple, which seems to break break compatibility every 3-4 months. That's the price of progress.

huh?

why do PC users always make these comments? i've got apps from the 90's that still work fine even in classic in osx. i have osx apps from 10.0 that work fine in 10.4

basically if the programmers follow the guidelines there are normally no issues with this - if the programmers don't follow the guidelines then sure apps can break as the roadmap continues. (of course there are a few exceptions to this on both sides)

dann

[Leonardo Vega]

AdamT: But isn't the ability of core R9.1 to use modules from R8.2 refered to as backwards compability? Maybe I'm confused or something.

wbj: In that case, using drivers as the analogy, when you upgrade your operating system you don't have to pay to upgrade all your drivers right? How would you feel if by upgrading to Windows XP Pro (from Win95) you had to pay to get your video, sound, modem, printer, etc. drivers to work (with no enhancements made) etc.

Srek: I have Body Paint R2, the one that came with the studio bundle. When I spoke about upgrading to R9.5, I thought they mentioned a $95 cost to upgrade BodyPaint to R2.5. But if I'm wrong, then GREAT :D !!

About the new serial numbers... why? Why even bother giving us new serial #'s for the core and all modules when we upgrade? Keep the original #'s and that way we save some money on the user-end. I don't quite understand the need for new serial #'s. To date, I've never upgraded an application that required me to input a new serial #.

But since new serial #'s are given out, I'm thinking of a plan here... could I upgrade just the core to R9.5 get BP upgraded to R2.5 for free (just paying the $50.00 fee), but still have R8.2 on my PC with all my modules working? It wouldn't be the best setup, but atleast I keep my modules and I have R9.5.

- Leo

[Jonj1611]

Hi,

I believe(and may be corrected) that if you upgrade to 9.5 from your current version then you shouldn't still be able to use 8.2 anymore. That is the way I read it, though I may be mistaken.

Jon

[soccerrprp]

I'm not an expert is computer programming or marketing, but it is clear that back compatibility is something that most companies are trying to maintain. I don't see the problem with maintaining such a strategy.

Also, it seems to me to be a dangerous marketing strategy to allow software users to simply upgrade continuously from version to version. I think it entirely logical to require users to invest at a full price when going from one FULL version to another. For example, if you're using any version of 8.x, for business purposes and long term health, users shouldn't be permitted to simply "upgrade" to a version 9.x. I can see easy transitioning from an earlier 8.x to a later 8.x at upgrade prices, or 9.x to a later 9.x.

I don't know, maybe i'm talking too much about nothing.

[AdamT]

AdamT: But isn't the ability of core R9.1 to use modules from R8.2 refered to as backwards compability? Maybe I'm confused or something.

wbj: In that case, using drivers as the analogy, when you upgrade your operating system you don't have to pay to upgrade all your drivers right? How would you feel if by upgrading to Windows XP Pro (from Win95) you had to pay to get your video, sound, modem, printer, etc. drivers to work (with no enhancements made) etc.
I think it's clear by now that you don't have to pay for this kind of thing with Cinema, but in any case it's another bad analogy. You are in fact paying to upgrade all of those dlls when you upgrade Windows, whether it's broken down that way on your bill or not.

To sum up, it seems there's a single, relatively small handling fee that covers all modules that haven't received significant upgrades. Does anyone still think this is outrageous, or are we just arguing about nothing?

[RickBarrett]

Srek: I have Body Paint R2, the one that came with the studio bundle. When I spoke about upgrading to R9.5, I thought they mentioned a $95 cost to upgrade BodyPaint to R2.5. But if I'm wrong, then GREAT :D !!

There's only a fee to upgrade BodyPaint standalone to 2.5. The module version upgrade is part of the single-price upgrade from 9 to 9.5 (one price for core and all modules).


But since new serial #'s are given out, I'm thinking of a plan here... could I upgrade just the core to R9.5 get BP upgraded to R2.5 for free (just paying the $50.00 fee), but still have R8.2 on my PC with all my modules working? It wouldn't be the best setup, but atleast I keep my modules and I have R9.5.

You can do that - as I was trying to say earlier if you fail to upgrade you don't ever actually lose your modules, you just don't have the ability to use them with the newest version. Personally, I think upgrading the whole studio is a better investment - I think it would be something like $600 more and it includes the Sketch & Toon module (my personal favorite).


I believe(and may be corrected) that if you upgrade to 9.5 from your current version then you shouldn't still be able to use 8.2 anymore. That is the way I read it, though I may be mistaken

You're mistaken :) - there's always the possibility you'll need to go back to a previous version for some reason. You can't sell R8 after upgrading it to R9 (we see them as a single license that's been upgraded), but you can certainly continue using it.

Rick Barrett
MAXON USA

[Jonj1611]

Hi,

So for instance, I could have version 8.2, upgrade to version 9.5 and have both versions running at the same time?

Thanks
Jon

[AdamT]

Correct. (filling space)

[Jonj1611]

Ah right, never knew that, thanks

Jon

[<Scott M C4D>]

Well, i read through all these threads. I have hardly used C4D R9.1 XL Upgrade fom R8.1 XL for £420 since i got it.
I have spent around £1000 on Maxon's upgrades and for me thats more than enough for a hobby. Paying around another £200 a few months later seems like overkill and for me it's the end of the road as far as anymore upgrades go with Maxon. I still have to get the best out of the tools i have and my abilitys to use them.
You can have all these updates but unless they are really required for business purposes or money is not a object why don't you stick with what you have. Having all these tools will not make a better artist,that part you will need to work hard for.

[Leonardo Vega]

Thanks again Rick for the clarification!

Obviously upgrading to the Studio is the best deal if you can afford it. But for me $900 (plus MotionBuilder, Messiah, or XSI for character animation) is too high. So I'll see what I can do.

AdamT: I don't want to argue, but I feel Cinema 4D is not totally backwards compatible with it's modules. For example, why can't C4D R9.5 use Mocca R1? Instead I *have to* to upgrade to Mocca R2 ($395).

So in my case, I don't need Mocca R2, I'm getting MB, Messiah or XSI... but if I want to upgrade to R9.5 I have to buy Mocca R2 if I want to keep my Mocca R1 module. So it becomes more difficult for someone like me to upgrade.

In a nutshell, the modular system does not offer a clear upgrade path... instead in many cases will cause people to sacrifice something, either extra money they didn't want to spend or an older module.

[Edit: But as Rick said, I do have the option to upgrade to R9.5 and keep R8.2 running with the modules. ]

- Leo

[wbj]

wbj: In that case, using drivers as the analogy, when you upgrade your operating system you don't have to pay to upgrade all your drivers right? How would you feel if by upgrading to Windows XP Pro (from Win95) you had to pay to get your video, sound, modem, printer, etc. drivers to work (with no enhancements made) etc.


It gets slightly off-topic..., but if you start thinking about, you will see that you pay for the drivers. Either they are part of the payed Windows upgrade (which contains new drivers) or they are delivered by the hardware manufacturer - in that case a part of the product price is used to pay this or future developement of the software, and if the amount of money needed for this developement is higher than the return the company got, this hardware isn't longer supported in newer OS versions.

Thinking that this software developement costs nothing (and is delivered to you for free) is a bit naive. These are business companies, not the salvation army.

Best regards,

wbj

[talos72]

Just out of curiousity Rick, currently I have the XL package 9.1 with Sketch and BP2. Now how much would it cost to upgrade to Studio 9.5 from XL9.1 along with sketch and BP2? Pretty much the only module I am missing is Dynamics, which I would hardly use. I would still pay more upfront to go from XL (with Sketch and BP) to Studio, or are the costs of Sketch and BP module deducted from the upgrade price since I am only missing one module?


Sorry about these questions, it's just that am trying to figure out my options given that I have more than the XL package but not the full studio...it is for the folks in the middle that things get confusing.

[AdamT]

I'm sure Rick will correct me if I'm wrong, but based on the preceding I *think* it would just be $50 above the XL cost to upgrade both BP2 and Sketch. At least in the US.

Vega,
I do see your dilemma, but it's unavoidable with the modular approach. I'm sure you can see it would get ridiculous if Maxon had to rejigger every version of every old module to ensure compatibility with new versions of Cinema. So, by the time you get to R11 Maxon will have to go back and rework Mocca R8.2, Mocca R8.5, Mocca R9.1, Mocca R9.5, Mocca R10.1, and Mocca R10.5 just to make sure they *all* work with R11. Now multiply that times BP, S&T, Dynamics, AR, etc., and it's clear that it's just not possible.

Look at it another way; if you wanted to upgrade XSI and for whatever reason the improved Mental Ray support didn't float your boat, you wouldn't have the option of knocking $100 off the upgrade cost and using your old MR connection. It's all or nothing.

[brammelo]

I'll add another comparision. Image you would have bought Maya 6.0 complete nodelock at €2.099, and wanted to upgrade to the all-new Maya 7.0 complete nodelock ... you would spend €1.469. Same version jump as you have with you C4D Bundle, no modules, but despite that still a rather big price tag - bigger than the upgrade price of a studio bundle.

[Leonardo Vega]

AdamT: I totally agree. But that all or nothing approach, "you choose your needs" that many people thought came with the modular system. I think the issue becomes more of confusion, than actually bad pricing. Btw, I don't think C4D is over priced in anyway.

So, by the time you get to R11 Maxon will have to go back and rework Mocca R8.2, Mocca R8.5, Mocca R9.1, Mocca R9.5, Mocca R10.1, and Mocca R10.5 just to make sure they *all* work with R11.

So basically (correct me if I'm wrong), each module, although not enhanced, is atleast reprogrammed each time a core upgrade rolls out to work with the newer version? I guess it's so tightly intergrated that upgrading the core, causes a programming change in all modules, right?

I just feel that when it comes time to upgrading (unless you just have the core and one module), it can't get quite confusing to choose a path.

Here's an idea for Maxon, when a module becomes too outdated like Mocca R1 and won't work with R9.5, just intergrate in the core :) Now that would be super :D I mean clothilde never become a module (and it's a whopping feature!), so I think dynamics, particles, mocca (atleast R1's features) and maybe even advanced renderer R1 should see it's way in the core. And maybe up the core's price a bit, but not much. Especially since most of these are very common in other apps. Just a thought...

- Leo

[K. Scott Gant]

Wow, SIGGRAPH really brings out the upgrade blues it seems. Every forum from the Maya to the XSI to the 3DMax ones are all bitching about upgrades and prices after they were announced/released at the show. Good to see that Cinema4D is no different in this regard.

[AdamT]

It's like a breath of fresh after compared to last year. :)

[RickBarrett]

Just out of curiousity Rick, currently I have the XL package 9.1 with Sketch and BP2. Now how much would it cost to upgrade to Studio 9.5 from XL9.1 along with sketch and BP2? Pretty much the only module I am missing is Dynamics, which I would hardly use. I would still pay more upfront to go from XL (with Sketch and BP) to Studio, or are the costs of Sketch and BP module deducted from the upgrade price since I am only missing one module?

I don't want to get into giving individualized quotes for everyone on the forum - that's why we have salespeople, and I don't get a commission if you order. The $295 single-price upgrade will cover your XL, Sketch & BP - as you said, all you're missing is Dynamics and Net Render. If you're interested in getting those, give our sales department a call and see what they can do for you. Sorry I can't be more help, but I don't have the numbers in front of me.

- Rick -

[mlmiller1983]

Is the Dynamics module really that bad?

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