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View Full Version : CNN: Games Made Me Do It Defense FAILS in cout case (GTA Fallout)


RobertoOrtiz
08-11-2005, 01:18 PM
Quote:

"A 20-year-old whose lawyers claimed the video game "Grand Theft Auto" and childhood abuse caused him to kill three small-town police officers was convicted Tuesday of capital murder."

>>Link<< (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/10/video.game.killings.ap/index.html/)


-R

AA_Tyrael
08-11-2005, 01:46 PM
yeah... its not the guns that kill people, but games..

BAN GAMES !!

animateddave
08-11-2005, 01:55 PM
Hes in for a loooooong respawn time.

jamesdansereau
08-11-2005, 02:09 PM
In that state its more like "Game Over Man"

lovisx
08-11-2005, 02:15 PM
He would of done better to plead insanity, or is that implied?

StephanD
08-11-2005, 02:19 PM
Grand Theft Auto" series, in which players shoot police officers

It is?

Weird,I could swear that's the last thing you wanna do in this game? ;)

Just like in real life,you 'can' shoot police officers or anyone else for that matter,it's up to you and not part of the game apart from Pulaski and Tenpenny which are corrupted murdering cops...oh and in Vice-City during the bank heist but that's about it.

Rarely qualifies as 'a game in which players shoot police officers'


I've killed more people playing Jedi Knight than GTA's.

mangual
08-11-2005, 02:24 PM
yeah... its not the guns that kill people, but games..

BAN GAMES !!

Actually let's take it further than that: it's not the guns that kill people either, it's the people that kill people. Guns, games, knives, whatever... those are just inanimate objects that would peacefully sit on a shelf and never hurt anyone until a human being picks them up or uses them as an excuse.

Goon
08-11-2005, 03:05 PM
Actually let's take it further than that: it's not the guns that kill people either, it's the people that kill people. guns, games, knifes, whatever... these are just inanimate objects that would peacefully sit on a shelf and never hurt anyone until a human being picks them up or uses them as an excuse.

Exactly.
And its not the parents fault either, though they might share some responsibility because of the way they brought up their child.
In the end, it is the fault of the person who makes the decision to kill, and takes the action.
Its kinda wierd how "innocent until proven guilty" is being transformed into "innocent even when guilty"

sickofpop
08-11-2005, 03:56 PM
What I found interesting was that the victims' families are suing GTA makers, while the criminal case determined that the shooter knew what he was doing and couldn't use the video game as an excuse. Its an interesting paradox that the legal system sometimes creates.

n3o
08-11-2005, 04:01 PM
Exactly.
And its not the parents fault either, though they might share some responsibility because of the way they brought up their child.
In the end, it is the fault of the person who makes the decision to kill, and takes the action.
Its kinda wierd how "innocent until proven guilty" is being transformed into "innocent even when guilty"

id say parents, people and all other influences around that individual are more to blame than the individual themself... isnt that what makes us the person we are?

lovisx
08-11-2005, 04:15 PM
I totally agree that it's the killer's fault for killing. In very few cases they don't realize what they're doing.

but punishing someone for killing doesn't really solve the problem, it just brings satisfaction to the family and friends of the victim, and helps the criminal reflect on what they did.

However, to completly solve the problem one has to take into account influences and enviroment that led to the philosiphy of hate, and try to change those enviroments and help the criminal dissect those philosiphies.

perhaps not GTA, but the abuse as a child etc.

leigh
08-11-2005, 04:21 PM
it's not the guns that kill people either, it's the people that kill people. guns, games, knifes, whatever...

To quote the comedian Eddie Izzard: "But I think the gun helps. You can't just go up to people and say BANG!"

:D

I am glad this guys ludicrous defense failed. A 20 year old knows that killing anyone is wrong, regardless of what he's done in a video game. Murdering bastard.

danimat0r
08-11-2005, 04:26 PM
CNN: Games Made Me Do It Defense FAILS in cout case (GTA Fallout)


Thank God.


Hes in for a loooooong respawn time.


ZING! :D

I would not wanna live in a society where legal precedent had been set for people getting off easy because they imitated stuff they'd done in a video game.

JeroenDStout
08-11-2005, 04:30 PM
Big friendly fire penalty.

NanoGator
08-11-2005, 04:31 PM
It is?

Weird,I could swear that's the last thing you wanna do in this game? ;)



Yep. Not only do you develop a "ack! Don't mess with the cops!" instinct, but anybody who plays these games can fully expect that if they do shoot an officer, they'll be mercilessly hunted down. Frankly, it's rather inconvient to have police chasing youw hile trying to complete a mission.

One of my major hotbuttons on this topic is that the people bitching about the game have not played it. Saying it's a game about killing cops is like saying Super Mario World is a game about smacking a poor innocent dinosaur in the back of the head.

CelticArtist
08-11-2005, 04:32 PM
Cake or Death? uhmmm Cake please...Cake or Death? Death wait no i meant Cake! OOhh you said Death hahaha.

Sorry Leigh, had to insert another Eddie Izzard line :) lighten up these GTA threads a bit.

i remember when this happened and that was the guy's defense, not really a new case, just the verdict finally coming about. I wonder when this will finally die down, if at all, kind of getting old now, and i doubt Take Two's stock could get a whole lot lower.

leigh
08-11-2005, 04:49 PM
Cake or Death? uhmmm Cake please...Cake or Death? Death wait no i meant Cake! OOhh you said Death hahaha.

Well we're all out of cake! We only had two and we didn't expect such a rush!

(sorry, couldn't resist that either :D I will now refrain from posting off topic in here)

Stucky
08-11-2005, 04:58 PM
I'm sure when he "bought" the game, in the case was that sticker that say "Parental advisory, explicit content"...He was not forced to play GTA, so the fault wasnt from the game...let him die like he did to the 3 innocent officers, probably with children and wifes to take care of...bastard...

NanoGator
08-11-2005, 05:17 PM
Well we're all out of cake! We only had two and we didn't expect such a rush!

(sorry, couldn't resist that either :D I will now refrain from posting off topic in here)

But it was funny!

Goon
08-11-2005, 05:34 PM
id say parents, people and all other influences around that individual are more to blame than the individual themself... isnt that what makes us the person we are?

While I do believe external circumstances influence a person and how they develop, I also believe every person is capable of impacting their own lives and making their own decisions.

Provided they aren't sociopaths, or weren't raised as feral children, society should have passed on a couple fundemental rules/morals, including do not murder.

Everyone likes to cast blame about, saying its society's fault, the gun manufacturer's fault, the game's fault, or the parent's fault. And indeed, each of these contributed a portion towards creating the situation there crime was committed in, but in the end, it all comes down to the individual. Just because someone has a gun, in a society where the media glorifies violence, where their parent's let you play violent video games and didn't give them enough attention as a child, doesn't mean they will be a murderer. It is the sequence of decisions made by them and those complicit in the crime that lead to the act.

No matter how much blame you assign to the external forces, it is the guilty person who pulled the trigger, and who is directly responsible for the loss of life. He made the decision, and is responsible for its consequences, moreso than any other.

Life is not a stream. You do not cast yourself in it and let the currents pull you along, and then wake up one day, holding a gun with three cops dead at your feet.

MattClary
08-11-2005, 05:58 PM
raised as feral children,

LOL!!! I don't know why, but that's just funny as hell to me....! :applause:

lovisx
08-11-2005, 06:03 PM
when war crimes are commited those who inacted them, and those who encouraged them, are guilty.

I don't see how killing cops is different.

BillSpradlin
08-11-2005, 06:15 PM
when war crimes are commited those who inacted them, and those who encouraged them, are guilty.

I don't see how killing cops is different.

You can't even compare war crimes to killing cops in a video game. If someone can't mentally distinguish between killing someone in a game and killing them in real life then that person is already in a serious problamtic mental state, not because a game "encouraged" them to do it.

lovisx
08-11-2005, 06:17 PM
I didn't say in a video game

video game companies should be careful because if they say that killing cops is fun in their games they're in effect spreading that philosiphy as propaganda.

I do realize that it's not on the same scale as war crimes, but I think, on a smaller scale proportionatly it's the same.

But obviously many of you have said GTA doesn't do that, so you know, I'm not pointing my comments at them, just saying in general.


.... just in the spirit of discussion, cause I find this topic interesting.

uncon
08-11-2005, 06:27 PM
The anti-drug stuff in GTA San Andreas always gives me a chuckle. It's way cooler than the "winners don't use drugs" video game campaign that might have caused a lot more drug problems then it deterred.

It's like rockstar buried a little gem of hope in the game, under all that bloody car crashin' violence.

CelticArtist
08-11-2005, 06:55 PM
The anti-drug stuff in GTA San Andreas always gives me a chuckle. It's way cooler than the "winners don't use drugs" video game campaign that might have caused a lot more drug problems then it deterred.

It's like rockstar buried a little gem of hope in the game, under all that bloody car crashin' violence.

not to mention that if you kill a cop in GTA, you're likely to have about 5 cars on you after the first one, after the second, you'll have 10 and a helicopter, after a few more, you'll have the army on you and you will be dead...not exactly encouragement i'd say.

StephanD
08-11-2005, 07:01 PM
GTAIII was more forgiving then San Andreas and VC.You could easily run over a cop(by accident ;) ) and not even get a star...In the south(VC and SA) it's two stars automatic.

toonman
08-11-2005, 09:23 PM
I'm glad to hear about the sentence, and not say more (for everyone's sake, mine included)

CIM
08-11-2005, 11:02 PM
:argh: :argh: :argh:

leigh
08-11-2005, 11:08 PM
video game companies should be careful because if they say that killing cops is fun in their games they're in effect spreading that philosiphy as propaganda.

Their philosophy?! Propaganda?!!! It's a G A M E. People know when they're buying a GAME that it is ENTERTAINMENT. People who buy games and then feel as if they have indoctrinated in some way have a few screws loose in their brain.

SovereignKnight
08-11-2005, 11:12 PM
How much XP penalty do you wrack up whilst rotting in prison?

He'll never level up again.

leigh
08-11-2005, 11:13 PM
id say parents, people and all other influences around that individual are more to blame than the individual themself... isnt that what makes us the person we are?

Wow. Just wow. So if you had a kid, and that kid went on a rampage and killed three policemen, would you then offer to have yourself arrested and put in jail in your kids place? People are responsible for their own actions, unless they suffer from severe mental retardation or other mental illness, in which case they sometimes cannot be held accountable.

Blaming others for your own actions is one of the scummiest, most pathetic things a person can do. I come from a country with a terrible violent crime problem, so I am sick and tired of people trying to pin the blame on others when they commit heinous crimes. When you shoot someone, YOU pull the trigger. It is YOUR choice and no-one elses. Nobody in modern society, who has a clean bill of mental health, can claim that they didn't know that murder was against the law, and morally wrong. When you kill someone, you know you're breaking the law, and you should expect to pay for your crime.

BigJay
08-11-2005, 11:23 PM
I don't think anyone told these people that the "he made me do it" excuse doesn't hold water when your an adult. Hell it rarely helps if you're a kid.

Spin99
08-11-2005, 11:26 PM
OK I wasted my teeny days playing the arcade version of Tarzan.
So I'll just get a knife break into the Zoo and kill all the little animals..
Then I'll just file a suit against Namco and claim temporaty insanity?

Makes sense, not ;)

BigJay
08-11-2005, 11:31 PM
id say parents, people and all other influences around that individual are more to blame than the individual themself... isnt that what makes us the person we are?

One thing that you fail to take into consideration is that with ALL the influences around us WE choose which to follow and which to ignore. I lived in East New York as a teen surrounded by crack dealers, gangs and I CHOSE not to get involved in it. Yeah I had the stuffing kicked out of me on occasion but I accepted it as I had made the choice. If we make a choice we are the ones who are responsible for their outcome. I did not ever blame my parents for not making enough money or loving me enough to move away from there. As the saying goes, we are all delt a hand and you have to make the best of it. I know a girl who thinks that it is all her parent's falt for not taking her to disney land, for not paying for her collage, for (name the thing that she wanted) that caused every bad decision she has made in her life. Her life sucks and she still yells at her parents for making it that way. BTW this girl is in her 30s.

I think that if more kids where taught that then they would spend a little more time paying attention to their environment and really thinking about what they want to make of it and who they want to be. We always have a choice and it is rarely simple or painless or easy.

I don't mean to make it sound like I am dumping this all on you, just that what you said is dangerous thinking because it gives control of your life to anyone else BUT you. Something to think about

NanoGator
08-11-2005, 11:41 PM
Nobody in modern society, who has a clean bill of mental health, can claim that they didn't know that murder was against the law, and morally wrong. When you kill someone, you know you're breaking the law, and you should expect to pay for your crime.

Bingo. One thing that GTA teaches really well is that games kill people. Somebody claiming they got the idea to shoot somebody from GTA cannot possibly say they didn't intend for that person to die.

PhantomDesign
08-12-2005, 05:53 AM
"One thing that GTA teaches really well is that games kill people."

I think you meant...

"One thing that GTA teaches really well is that guns kill people."

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it just seemed that way according to the context. :deal:

PhantomDesign
08-12-2005, 05:57 AM
Blaming others for your own actions is one of the scummiest, most pathetic things a person can do.
I agree. This is one of the rare cases where people are eager to insult their own intelligence. :banghead:

BillSpradlin
08-12-2005, 07:37 AM
I blame my parents for making me so cool. Jerks.

noisewar
08-12-2005, 11:26 AM
"One thing that GTA teaches really well is that games kill people."

I think you meant...

"One thing that GTA teaches really well is that guns kill people."

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it just seemed that way according to the context. :deal:

Except that guns don't kill people. People genetically born without a palpable scapegoat kill people.

StephanD
08-12-2005, 11:56 AM
Man that avatar cracks me up! lol

JeroenDStout
08-12-2005, 12:19 PM
I blame my parents for making me so cool. Jerks.
Just the reply I was looking for :applause:

Kai01W
08-12-2005, 01:05 PM
Their philosophy?! Propaganda?!!! It's a G A M E. People know when they're buying a GAME that it is ENTERTAINMENT. People who buy games and then feel as if they have indoctrinated in some way have a few screws loose in their brain.

Sorry, but if you think that "Americas Army" for instance is just a game then you are really naive...
The whole point of propaganda is exactly that it comes as ENTERTAINMENT.
Games as every art form or lets say entertainment always represent the culture and time from which they originate. So in one form or another it always reflects the societies views on certain topics. Look at the "hip hop" culture that found its way into video games. I would not necessarily call this propaganda but definately an opinion. You just can't do any "art" without it. You notice when you play an asian game as compared to european or american games.

I'm suprised that many people in this thread seem to simplify a lot (though I noticed that with many gamers, being one myself).
It's never the games, its never the guns, media or the background or the environment someone grew up in. But then, why the hell does one need a gun in the first place?
The idea of a totally liberate and free individual is quite nice but honestly, to deny any outer influences on ones actions is just as naive as to make them the sole explanation for ones deeds.


People who buy games and then feel as if they have indoctrinated in some way have a few screws loose in their brain.

Quite the opposite is true!

-k

StephanD
08-12-2005, 01:21 PM
I get ya but what kind of propanganda would you see in GTA games?

Play a game of San Andreas and enter an 'Ammunation' then listen to the commercials,these guys aren't serious,it's a game and it's not really comparable to the 'To get your America's Army CD contact your local recruiter' thing.

Quite the opposite.

BigJay
08-12-2005, 01:58 PM
sometimes a game is just a game. Is Leasure Suit Larry propaganda???? no it is a rip off of Animal House, Porkies and all the other whimp/odd ball gets the girl movies of years ago.

America's Army is a recruiting tool. It could be said to be propaganda, but it is recognized as such.

GTA is solely for entertainment at it's crudest/rawest form. GTA SA is a game version of any hood movie that had been made to death in the 90s.


Propaganda I see as trying to convince someone of something. Fight this war! cure this thing! fur is bad! A culture that already has these ideals is not being propagandized it is just showing up in a game. The "hood" culture is nothing new and we all know of it, watch it or live in it so I don't see any propaganda there. Maybe exploiting a culture to use as entertainment which is a different thing entirely.

lovisx
08-12-2005, 02:04 PM
If you really want to tie it into GTA, then perhaps it's teaching that the streets are wild with crime and that we need more police officers. HE HE. Or that using guns can solve problems, hence the army reference. etc. etc.

For instance, here in Toronto they are hiring 150 of new police officers in 2006 to fight street crime, which is alot btw. So I'm sure our culture of fear has contributed to this, because on the other hand, the all powerful statistic says that crime is down.

Kai01W
08-12-2005, 02:15 PM
sometimes a game is just a game. Is Leasure Suit Larry propaganda???? no it is a rip off of Animal House, Porkies and all the other whimp/odd ball gets the girl movies of years ago.
Do you think newspaper articles are just neutral "information"?
Of course Larry has no direct imperative message like "join the army!" yet its easily identifiable as an 80s game (not just visually) because certain views and opinions on society are really obvious in this game that really belong to this period. This is NOT a bad thing.
I was just thinking that the idea that our free will is so strong it would not get influeced by any of this is just as naive as to assume we have no free will at all (well some neuro scientist seem to think so anyway).

-k

lovisx
08-12-2005, 02:19 PM
btw, propaganda isn't convincing someone of something, it's just the spread of information and ideas. So if you look at it, the makers of GTA are propagating violance. In most of their games they seem to focus on crime and murder = fun, wow, and satisfaction.

sure you're parents made you cool, and commercials made you a consumer.

PhantomDesign
08-12-2005, 05:22 PM
You have to laugh at the irony of a "free choice debate." (think about that for a second) :banghead:

Lets test the practicality of a legal system based on "a product of your surroundings" philosophy. Assume Mr. A kills Mr. B with a gun. Mr. A accuses video games, TV, parents, his morning breakfast, his bed, his landlord, his loud alarm clock, the gun, the bullets, and the legal system. So, we ban the video game & tv shows, lock up his parents & landlord, sue the gun/bullets/bed/alarmclock manufacturers, and shut down the farm that grew the corn in his cornflakes. Wait, we can't do that!!! Why? First, the videogame manufacturer was influenced by their parents, taxes, their teachers, the weather, their city environments...it's not their fault. So, sue the video-game maker's parents? Wait....those parents have parents and.......

As much logic as the theory has, basing a legal system on your theory is just plain STUPID. If you run up & hit me while quickly blaming your parents, YOU will be the one that I take revenge on.

This debate us is so mind-numbing, I wonder why we're even having it. :banghead:


btw, propaganda isn't convincing someone of something, it's just the spread of information and ideas. So if you look at it, the makers of GTA are propagating violance. In most of their games they seem to focus on crime and murder = fun, wow, and satisfaction.

sure you're parents made you cool, and commercials made you a consumer.
Play with definitions all you want, but it doesn't change the facts or what it is. GTA doesn't promote violence any more than James Bond promotes violence. The only people who conclude videogames/movies/TV/etc as "crime and murder = fun, wow, and satisfaction" are those trying to censor it. The truth is censorship or even the "just say no" mentality only works on goodie-goodies who avoid it anyways.

lovisx
08-12-2005, 05:55 PM
no james bond promotes cigarettes and having women as objects.

I never argued that the legal system should be changed to say you can blame stuff on the enviroment.

censorship does serve a purpose, most people agree that video games should have rating systems so that if they do have violant content the person has a required level of maturity to play it.

and I don't think any level of censorship should cover up ideologies of cop killing and murder for fun. Those ideas should be exposed and seen by the public for what they are.

I believe everyone should have freedom, but I don't believe that what is done with those freedoms should be without consequence.

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