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View Full Version : Newtek re-invents the change rate...


telamon
08-09-2005, 11:38 PM
Just been on NT Europe site and have seen that LW 9 can be pre-ordered there for the nice price of 395 €.... Again... No change 1 $ = 1 € @ newtek. That bothers me a lot.

Please British mates, tell me how the change rate is calculated between US $ and UK £.

toonafish
08-10-2005, 12:16 AM
that's great news for the LW users in India....just 395,- Rupees !!

KillMe
08-10-2005, 12:26 AM
i placed my order at www.onevideo.co.uk (http://www.onevideo.co.uk) for £299 including tax and shipping which works out at about $535 us

£7.50 ($13.40) for the shipping ( seems excessive for national ground postage but nevermind 0 )

395 euro's is cheaper does taht include tax and postage if so i should have placed my order with newtek online =/

telamon
08-10-2005, 12:35 AM
no it is VAT excluded. The VAT rate in France is 20.6 % ==> regardless of the shipping costs, the total cost for LW with the 395 $ upgrade is in fact € 476.37 which is exactly $ 589.31.

Qexit
08-10-2005, 12:40 AM
i placed my order at www.onevideo.co.uk (http://www.onevideo.co.uk) for £299 including tax and shipping which works out at about $535 us

£7.50 ($13.40) for the shipping ( seems excessive for national ground postage but nevermind 0 )

395 euro's is cheaper does taht include tax and postage if so i should have placed my order with newtek online =/According to the Newtek Europe site, the UK RRP £ price should be £259 + VAT. Onevideo are only charging £247 + VAT. £7.50 + VAT is pretty good for courier delivery in the UK. They don't use the Royal Mail. If you know a cheaper courier...please let me know :) Not exactly sure what you mean by 'national ground postage'.

£247 = $441

The 17.5% VAT would be added on top of that either way as would the shipping. So while we do pay more over here...it's not quite as much as you might think and certainly beats the £1 = $1 exchange rate that used to be used by LW resellers in the UK BEFORE Newtek Europe took things over. Also, don't forget the cost of shipping from the States. That would easily make up the difference.

KillMe
08-10-2005, 12:47 AM
jsut ment it being shipped in country not internation and it says its ground shipping meaning no planes which makes sence - but yeah i guess shoving it in the mail probally abit much to hope for ( well maybe not would not be good if it got lost )

anyway good to know i didn't get ripped off and infact got a deal =)

Nu Visual Science
08-10-2005, 12:47 AM
Yeah the cheapest supplier in the UK is OneVideo and it totals £300 including vat and delivery, We pay more than the US but it has to be said that is very very usual nowadays even if not acceptable and actually the reason i didn't upgrade my Vue to 5.

Personne
08-10-2005, 01:02 AM
It's not possible for european to order directly from Newtek US, you pay $395us but your credit card will be charged in euro with the exact exchange rate by your credit card company? I'm canadian and I ordered my 8 upgrade directly from Newtek.

telamon
08-10-2005, 01:14 AM
no, we couldn't. I have tried for [8] and the service told me to order from a reseller in Europe at that time. I have not made any blank test for now.
BTW - € 395 is $ 488

Qexit
08-10-2005, 01:21 AM
but yeah i guess shoving it in the mail probally abit much to hope for ( well maybe not would not be good if it got lost Slighty OT here, but bear in mind that from a retailers point of view there is considerably more to shipping costs than the cost of the stamp(s) on the package. They also have to pay the wage of the person who prepares the paperwork, puts the software in the parcel, labels it up. etc., say 15 minutes all told for each parcel which is £1.25p even on minimum wage. Then the packaging material costs money, as does the postage and they have to make a profit on all of this.

Beamtracer
08-10-2005, 01:53 AM
Distributors and retailers always take their cut. It's better to avoid them.

This is why it would be better to have a download-only service. Downloading software avoids these hassles and expenses. Then everyone on the planet could pay the same rate (well, plus exchange rate).

Most distributors and retailers don't give any meaningful support anyway.

at_626
08-10-2005, 03:51 AM
Distributors and retailers always take their cut. It's better to avoid them.

This is why it would be better to have a download-only service. Downloading software avoids these hassles and expenses. Then everyone on the planet could pay the same rate (well, plus exchange rate).

Most distributors and retailers don't give any meaningful support anyway.


AGREED!!

Mr NT, pls let us buy directly online and download in the near future... save cost for stamp, labels, cds and waiting... etc etc.:thumbsup:

mlmiller1983
08-10-2005, 04:02 AM
that's great news for the LW users in India....just 395,- Rupees !!

LOL. That would make alot of Indians happy.

Qexit
08-10-2005, 09:00 AM
This is why it would be better to have a download-only service. Downloading software avoids these hassles and expenses. Then everyone on the planet could pay the same rate (well, plus exchange rate).When everyone on the planet has broadband internet access, I suppose that might be true. At present, that is far from the case. So a large number of potential users would be unable to access the products due to prohibitive download times on dial-up connections. Then there would be the problem of dongles and printed manuals that cannot be sent electronically. Online, electronic manuals are useful and don't use up trees but they are not as easily browsable as flicking through a book and can't be read away from the computer.

Electronic only would also kill the secondhand market stone dead. Would you buy a piece of 'genuine', original software that was only provided on a home burned CD-R ?

I'm sorry you seem to have had really bad experiences with the ditributors and retailers you have dealt with. I have not found that to be the case with those that I have used in recent years. I find that buying direct from the manufacturer, in the case of software, is usually more expensive than going to a retailer. Without the retailers competing with price reductions, software would be maintained at artiificially high prices. At least, that's my view :)

Beamtracer
08-10-2005, 09:53 AM
When everyone on the planet has broadband internet access, I suppose that might be true. At present, that is far from the case. So a large number of potential users would be unable to access the products due to prohibitive download times on dial-up connections.

Most people around the planet have access to broadband internet. If not at home, then down at the local internet cafe, where they can walk in with CD-R disk in hand. You can do it in Katmandu, you can do it anywhere!

A download purchase would enable most people around the world to get the software at the lowest price. At the moment that doesn't happen, as you can see when you compare Lightwave prices in different countries. In some places it costs much more, and that is solely because the distributor is taking a cut. Those who want a printed manual could order it as an option.

Dongles... I used to think they were OK, but I've changed my mind. Dongles add to the price, are a nuisance poking out of your laptop, they hog one of your valuable USB ports, and they are a liability if they get damaged or fail which could put you out of action. The dongle should also go, and that would allow a download sale.

biliousfrog
08-10-2005, 10:00 AM
I agree that download is the way to go. The issue of printed manuals is not even worth discussing because you have to pay extra for it anyway. The basic Lightwave package is the software CD & some content CD's plus an electronic manual. I still don't really get why Newtek are using dongle's as their software is normally cracked before anyone elses...it can't be for anti-piracy reasons. I guess it helps with using several computers (I keep mine on a key ring with my Messiah one).....maybe just send the dongle through the post for the first purchase & then allow upgrades to be downloaded?

I was really P!$$£d when I used the recent crossgrade promotion because of all the VAT/Tax/Delivery etc. I'm still paying for it & now the new version is set for release:rolleyes: .....& what's happening with the 64bit version? Is it out yet? It was supposed to be a free upgrade but I've not heard any mention of it since.

Qexit
08-10-2005, 10:10 AM
I disagree...but let's just agree to differ :) This is the wrong place for this discussion. Aside from which, my copy of Vue 5 Infinite was just delivered and I want to go play with it :bounce:

BeeVee
08-10-2005, 10:11 AM
Hi all,

As a start, this is not a defence of NewTek Europe - I need to make that quite clear.

* Try comparing the price of products by Sony, Levi's, Oakley, Lego or Apple between Europe and the States. Levi's, Oakley and Apple might be understandable because they are American products (although they are surely not made in the US), Sony is Japanese but prices in the States are even less expensive than in Japan itself and Lego is Danish and yet prices in North America are often half of what they are in Denmark itself.

* Secondly, VAT - only a side topic in this thread admittedly - does not benefit us in the slightest. VAT varies between 15 and 25% in the European Union, but it is not controlled by NewTek Europe.

* Downloads are great and we have been researching means to offer LightWave as an electronic download for a time - an obvious boon to us and the environment if we don't have to create printed documentation and packaging. However, it's not a universal panacea and the governments of the world will find a means to tax downloads and stop them from being a "cheap" option. It's also worth pointing out that downloading an entire CD's worth of data (or even several) is not an option open to everyone yet.

* Lastly, the exchange rate between the dollar, sterling and the euro fluctuates every day. There have been times when the price offered by NewTek Europe has actually been better than the US price - our goal is always to provide the best prices possible.

B

toonafish
08-10-2005, 10:20 AM
no it is VAT excluded. The VAT rate in France is 20.6 % ==> regardless of the shipping costs, the total cost for LW with the 395 $ upgrade is in fact € 476.37 which is exactly $ 589.31.

But you're absolutely right. This is ridiculous, the press release on the Lightwave page clearly states the update will cost $ 395,-.
Quote from http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05a.html :
"For Registered owners of LightWave [8]:
LightWave 3D v9.0 upgrade with PDF manual and Vue 5 Infinite: $395
LightWave 3D v9.0 with printed manual and Vue 5 Infinite: $495"

So I suppose Newteks statements in press releases are not valid for European users anymore ?

Suppose its a Texan thing, pissing off Europeans ;-)

Qexit
08-10-2005, 10:21 AM
Nicely put Ben :)

My final word on the subject :

As mentioned, I just received my copy of Vue 5 Infinite delivered by the nice man from CityLink. In the, hopefully, not too distant future, I will receive my copy of LW9 from another CityLink delivery person. Onevideo, the company I've ordered my LW9 upgrade from, are only charging me for one delivery not two. So they will be making a loss, not taking a cut on the delivery charge.

TRick
08-10-2005, 10:52 AM
...There have been times when the price offered by NewTek Europe has actually been better than the US price - our goal is always to provide the best prices possible...

Strange, these times don't change by the exchange rate then. I guess you'll have to follow E-on's politics now: they have a very simple 1:1 exchange rate rule for ages (and heard all excuses in the world about it). Even if one Euro would cost two Dollars they'll still apply this rule. I'll just wait for that moment:D

BeeVee
08-10-2005, 11:05 AM
And then we'd get people complaining that they bought at 11:27 in the morning when the price at 15:45 was much better, because of exchange rate fluctuations... Notice that there weren't any threads complaining of price differences when the dollar was in the toilet against sterling and the Euro?

B

telamon
08-10-2005, 11:13 AM
Ben, this means that if 1€ = 0,9 $ the price will remain the same ?

private
08-10-2005, 11:15 AM
* Downloads are great and we have been researching means to offer LightWave as an electronic download for a time - an obvious boon to us and the environment if we don't have to create printed documentation and packaging. However, it's not a universal panacea and the governments of the world will find a means to tax downloads and stop them from being a "cheap" option.

How can the government tax a download. You order with your credit card, and download. Let the credit card do the exchange rate.


* Lastly, the exchange rate between the dollar, sterling and the euro fluctuates every day. There have been times when the price offered by NewTek Europe has actually been better than the US price - our goal is always to provide the best prices possible.



Exchange rates don't fluxuate greatly. They do over an extended period of time, but day to day it's marginal.

You guys provide excellent follow up service and answer questions, but the price differences are ridiculous.

BeeVee
08-10-2005, 11:35 AM
How can a goverment tax a download? Try buying ACDSee... And for currency fluctuations, yes they are marginal day to day for an individual buying a single copy of LightWave, but not for the business that sells hundreds per day and has to account for each of them. Do any of the companies I mention offer a price fluctuating with the exchange rate? In fact, I'd really like to know of ones that do.

NewTek Europe does revise its prices continuously, in order to offer the best possible price to the end user where possible.

B

bjoernk
08-10-2005, 11:40 AM
And then we'd get people complaining that they bought at 11:27 in the morning when the price at 15:45 was much better, because of exchange rate fluctuations... Notice that there weren't any threads complaining of price differences when the dollar was in the toilet against sterling and the Euro?

B

Oh please!
IMO a pretty lame excuse for charging extra in Europe!
I buy almost all my software online, and I always pay in Norwegian Krone in the end anyway.
Why not let customers pay in their preferred currency?
There are lots of automatic currency conversion tools on the net if you have problems doing the conversions.
We have to deal with fluctuating exchange rates all the time, and we don't all use Euros or Dollars. It feels really stupid that companies like Eovia, RealViz, and now apparently Newtek have such big problems with exchange rates. Don't you understand that people get angry when they feel they're getting ripped off?
I have several times tried to buy Eovia software using US$, which is always the lowest price, but every time I have been told that because I live in Norway I have to pay in Euros. I won't do that because of the silly 1€=1$ thing (as a principle), so I cancelled my orders and tried to let them know why I did so.
A few years ago I bought a RealViz suite, ImageModeller/Stitcher/SceneWeaver from a US company, because they had the best price. In the end I got the package, from France. But at least I was charged the US price converted to Euro, instead of the EU price, which was much higher (as usual). This seems to not be possible with Eovia, and thus I stay away from them.
I thought the LW9 upgrade was a good way to get around that stupid 1€=1$ thing, but it looks like I was wrong :(
In fact I stopped upgrading my Cinema XL license because of Maxons stupid pricing/monopoly policy, and bought LW instead because they seemed to know better how to convert currencies. Looks like I was wrong again...

Qexit
08-10-2005, 11:49 AM
Strange, these times don't change by the exchange rate then. I guess you'll have to follow E-on's politics now: they have a very simple 1:1 exchange rate rule for ages (and heard all excuses in the world about it). Even if one Euro would cost two Dollars they'll still apply this rule. I'll just wait for that moment:DOK, couldn't resist checking into this one so I popped over to the e-on website to find out how much it would cost to buy Vue 5 Infinite through their website from the US, UK and Europe. The answers:

US = $599
UK = £411 = $737
Europe = 599 Euros = $742

(all prices plus local tax and postage)

So back to LW prices and such, picking up a copy of Vue 5 Infinite through Onevideo for £247 with a free upgrade to LW9 thrown in as a nice bonus still looks like a good deal to me. Maybe I should spend some of the money saved on ordering printed manuals for both packages :twisted:

bjoernk
08-10-2005, 11:56 AM
If converting currencies is such a big problem why not just leave it up to VISA and the other card companies?
Why don't you just use one price for all, be it in $ or EUR? That would be fair to all.
Or just let us all order from where we can get the best price?

At todays exchange rates (which have been at the same ratio for a long time) 1€=almost $1.25, which means that in Europe we have to pay almost $100 extra for that upgrade.
This is not so much a matter of money, as I guess we all will be able to pay that much extra money. But doing it like that makes your European customers feel they're getting ripped off, which means you're losing goodwill, and potentially also customers.

thx1138
08-10-2005, 11:56 AM
I disagree...but let's just agree to differ :) This is the wrong place for this discussion. Aside from which, my copy of Vue 5 Infinite was just delivered and I want to go play with it :bounce:

So the LW9 preorder gets you Vue Infinite right away ? No need to wait for it unitil LW9 ships ? That'd sounds great to me.
This offer is great anyway, no matter what the exchange rates are. So the US gets a slightly better deal, in most of europe we're allowed to buy beer at 16 :D

lightwolf
08-10-2005, 11:57 AM
Well, I just checked Softimage for laughs...
Foundation is 449€, 496US$ or £299, depending on where you order from.
Of course VAT will be added in Europe...

Cheers,
Mike

Beamtracer
08-10-2005, 11:59 AM
Some distributors don't keep the software in stock anyway. So they have to wait until Newtek ships it to them, then the distributor ships it a second time to you. Meanwhile, you're hanging out for your software to arrive.

Credit cards actually offer very competitive exchange rates. If you're on a vacation in some other country, you'll most likely get a better exchange rate by purchasing on the credit card than you would if you went to a money exchange booth.

It must make people frustrated when they see others in a different region purchasing the software for a lower cost. Who likes to see someone else get the same product cheaper?

That's the beauty of the download. One price for everyone. No customs taxes. No wait for delivery.

Qexit
08-10-2005, 12:06 PM
So the LW9 preorder gets you Vue Infinite right away ? No need to wait for it unitil LW9 ships ? That'd sounds great to me.
This offer is great anyway, no matter what the exchange rates are.Yep, as mentioned my copy of Vue 5 arrived this morning. A 2 CD set including an application disk and an extras disk both with PC and Mac files. I am upgrading from LW8.X to LW9. Interestingly, it comes with a new LW8 serial number that has to be registered on the Newtek Europe site, to ensure that I get my LW9 upgrade when it ships, and on the E-on site when I register my copy of Vue 5 there. I wonder how people are going to get this wrong ?

lightwolf
08-10-2005, 12:07 PM
That's the beauty of the download. One price for everyone. No customs taxes. No wait for delivery.
Not really... No wait for delivery yes...
You are legally bound to take care of VAT in certain countries though (whether as a purchaser or as a seller depends). One price for everyone also depends on how you sell.

Cheers,
Mike

BeeVee
08-10-2005, 12:07 PM
Okay, just so you know we aren't ogres here at NewTek Europe. Earlier this year there was an offer to upgrade to [8], okay? The price in dollars for it was $250, the price in Euro was 195€. The average dollar rate for May and June, expressed as a ratio was 0.821548 for May and 0.787535 for June, giving prices in Dollars of $237.35 for May and $247.60 for June. Now those are average prices for the month, but feel free to examine the exchange rates on a daily basis at the excellent fxtop (http://fxtop.com/en/historates.php3?C1=USD&C2=EUR&DD1=01&MM1=05&YYYY1=2005&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=30&MM2=06&YYYY2=2005&btnOK=Go%21&MA=1) historic rates site.

B

BeeVee
08-10-2005, 12:19 PM
Another thing. In May we offered the LightWave [8] upgrade deal including the printed manual, which in the States was an extra $100, making our offer even better. In June that price was without a printed manual, but we offered it with one for 250€, still making it a better deal than the $350 you had to pay if you bought in dollars.

By the way, it is never our policy to use a 1:1 conversion rate, but we do apply a rate that may seem similar. NewTek always tries to give the best price to all its customers, including those in Europe.

B

TRick
08-10-2005, 12:59 PM
Since the upgrade without manual is $395 against €395, I'm really anxious to see an explanation for the price difference for the upgrade with manual for $495 against $445.

Maybe a smaller manual for the smarter Europeans :twisted:

trygve
08-10-2005, 01:33 PM
I just got the price from the distributor in Norway for the upgrade from LW8 to LW9, it was NOK 3755 Ex. wat. -> $ 572.71 with today's exchange rates. The tax is 24% on top of that. That's $ 177 more than an American would pay.

It's also € 463, could I buy it cheaper directly from Newtwk-Europe?

Trygve

telamon
08-10-2005, 02:53 PM
it is not a criticism against NT Europe. You are right to do whatever you want. NT is a company to run with its own costs and it is NT policy to decide whether these charges have to be handed over by the whole big Newtek or locally by Newtek Europe. I do not want to get into this debate.

The fact is that the true price for Europeans is not 400 bucks but rather 480 VAT free. You have to communicate on this because it is a communication problem. It is not a good idea to give the same figure and change the "$" mark by a "€" mark.

I am not certain that if there is any monetary crash and € falls underneath the 1:1 rate against dollar, that the price will be kept @ 395€/...


The € vs dollar rate has never gone down under 1.2 $/€ over the last 12 months (see attachment). It is your right and your duty as a company owner to add some contingencies to your cost. Nevertheless, prices can change also. It is not a shame to increase price because of rate variations. Go to your gasoline reseller, go to the Intendant @ Bordeaux (hmmm) prices are varying because of many parameters that might include change rate bumps for imported products (we here consider that LW is an imported product... OK the box and the CDs are imported)...


Anyway, I'll not mail an internet mate to buy it for me and send the CDs to me to save 80 bucks... It is not fair.

rickycox
08-10-2005, 03:15 PM
£7.50 ($13.40) for the shipping ( seems excessive for national ground postage but nevermind

Shipping excessive. Man I have to pay US$75 for shipping to the Australian Distributor New Magic for Vue, and then another US$75 for them to forward it to me in Japan. Then pay double again for shipping of Lightwave 9 when it comes out a few months later. All becuase I can't buy Lightwave in Japan or US.

habañero
08-10-2005, 11:41 PM
I find the topic here interesting, just a few thougts.

1. Most of the people at this board is young people fluent in english, and I mean if I need tech support I usually get it from the mostly americans here or at spinquad. That isn´t so much an option for, to take an example, my cousin that is 10 or my father that is 51, they both speak excellent Norwegian. In countries like france, spain or japan, there are quite a lot of even the young people that don´t talk or don´t feel that comfortable speaking english and it can affect sales, *which affect the number of jobs*. While the local helpdesk might not be so much help to an expert user, it can make a difference from a guy in the 50s at a print house. Obviously, if everyone buys from Newtek USA, there will not be incentive to have local representation.

2. If you have money that you are going to spend in another currency than your own and you want to insure against loss(or benefit) from currency fluctuations, you can keep half of it in your own and half in said currency. Some goods and services, particularly ones which are mostly sold outside their mother countries or often recieve payment in foreign dollars (like hotels) will sometimes in effect price their goods in other currencies than the local and the system is not good for such purchases. Like, a hotel that takes 100$ for a room won´t necessarily get cheaper if the pesos drop. Or, American software that have fixed price in Euros might not get cheaper if the Dollar drops through the floor, like some people expect it too. On the other hand, school tuitons is a good candidate.


3. It would make sense to me that prices for the program were cheaper in say Zambia or Thailand or China, more expensive in the worlds more expensive countries like Norway or Switzerland. One price to fit them all would mean that the people in the richest countries in the world would get a rebate, and the people in poor and less comfortable countries will be their sponsors. Compared to wage or living cost indexes, I don´t think LW is much cheaper in the US than in like western Europe, while it is insanely expensive in eastern Europe. minimum wage in the states is typically 5-6$, Norway is like 8-12 depending.

5. There are other costs to running a studio that works out differently, to take an example computer equipment is cheaper in Norwegian shops than in Mexican or Bulgarian ones while the price of a taxi or a meal can differ on factor of 10 or 20.

6. The obvious solution is to buy second hand from the states or have a friend there, I mean if the difference is a lot of money to you and you consider it worth the different risks and hassle.

7. Still, I am just flabbergasted at the incredible offer for 9 and Vue, and G2/ FP2. :bounce: As a community we should consider ourselves winners, not whiners!

8. I quite fancy the dongle, since it allows me to have a registered version of lightwave with all my plugins installed on my mates mac and one of the machines at my internet cafe. I think I would loose this if the dongle went awol.

wwade
08-11-2005, 12:49 AM
In Texas the tax is 8.5% so back that out of VAT if you want to compare. Shipping on the other hand is cheeper i would venture to guess.

telamon
08-11-2005, 01:01 AM
VAT is not actually a problem here. It is paid back by the government for any purchase in connection with work.

Beamtracer
08-11-2005, 01:22 AM
Fully downloadable software could have further advantages.

If you're in Europe or anywhere else outside the US, you should not have to pay the US sales taxes on your purchase, as it is an export. So a lower price should be listed to non-US customers who are downloading their purchase over the internet.

US customers should be paying more for local online purchases, as they have to include the local sales tax.


You are legally bound to take care of VAT in certain countries though (whether as a purchaser or as a seller depends).

So you're in Germany, and if you purchase software and download it over the net, you pay the local Value Added Tax (VAT)?

Who would collect this tax? After making your purchase with a credit card, do you then call up the government tax authority in your country and tell them you want to give them some extra money?

You should at least be exempt from the US tax. You may be exempt from the European VAT as well. Or maybe there is just nobody to police the European VAT.

mav3rick
08-11-2005, 05:19 AM
i vote for DL content but on other hand i have to say shipping of newtek jewel was far less expensive than shipping of my neverused MODO that cost me 120 USD only for shipping.... stupid me .

mav3rick
08-11-2005, 05:25 AM
.duplicate sorry

BeeVee
08-11-2005, 07:21 AM
Beamtracer, companies charge the VAT at time of purchase - you can't download until you've paid for your goods, you can't pay for your goods without paying the tax.

B

Badllarma
08-11-2005, 07:48 AM
VAT is not actually a problem here. It is paid back by the government for any purchase in connection with work.

Only if your turning over 18K (approx not sure of the correct figure) a year and VAT registered that is. Other wise you take the hit.

Well I've just looked at my invoice for my Lightwave 8.0 upgrade and now my lightwave 9.0 upgrade and this latest one is the cheapest by a fair margin so I'm more than happy better tools for less money and free software thrown in seem like a good deal to me. :beer:

lightwolf
08-11-2005, 09:17 AM
Beamtracer, companies charge the VAT at time of purchase - you can't download until you've paid for your goods, you can't pay for your goods without paying the tax.

Which is for commerce within the EU. In this case the seller has to charge his local VAT to any buyer.
If you do run a business you can however subtract the VAT from the VAT _you_ pay to the tax office for the services you deliver.

http://www.ecommerce-digest.com/free-tax-advice.html

Cheers,
Mike

Beamtracer
08-11-2005, 10:16 AM
This is not meant to be any criticism of Newtek Europe. It's just my thoughts on the concept of downloading software, which is global and transgresses national borders.

Beamtracer, companies charge the VAT at time of purchase - you can't download until you've paid for your goods, you can't pay for your goods without paying the tax.

Sure, if you're in Europe and you buy a product in Europe you have to pay the VAT (tax). But what if you're in Europe but you're downloading your software from the US?

Do you need to pay the European tax? Do you need to pay the US tax? After all, the US tax is collected by the individual states, so why would you have to pay that if you're in Europe?

My theory is that a software company based in the US should be able to sell the product to people outside the US (via download) without charging the local tax.

BeeVee
08-11-2005, 10:19 AM
To quote Benjamin Franklin: "In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes"...

B

Beamtracer
08-11-2005, 10:30 AM
To quote Benjamin Franklin: "In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes"...
Ah, but Mr Franklin said that before the internet arrived ;)

lightwolf
08-11-2005, 10:42 AM
Do you need to pay the European tax? Do you need to pay the US tax? After all, the US tax is collected by the individual states, so why would you have to pay that if you're in Europe?

Well, logically (but what is logical about the taxing systems...?), since it is a _sales_ tax and not a purchasing tax, the vendor would have to charge his local taxes. Which makes sense if you consider the fact that the vendor uses local ressources and infrastructure to manufacture his goods.

My theory is that a software company based in the US should be able to sell the product to people outside the US (via download) without charging the local tax.
Not really, that would turn a sales tax into a purchasing tax... However, this seems to be different in the states and in the US. Over here VAT is actually handled as a sales tax, whereas most sales taxes in the US are actually purchasing taxes (i.e. they depend on the location of the person buying, no the location of the vendor).

Cheers,
Mike

telamon
08-11-2005, 10:45 AM
To quote Benjamin Franklin: "In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes"...

B

excellent :D

bjoernk
08-11-2005, 12:20 PM
AFAIK VAT in Europe now works like this.
Selling from a EU country to another EU country - VAT is charged in the vendors country.
Selling from a EU country to a non-EU country - no VAT is charged by vendor. Buyer will eventually pay VAT in his own country (at least for physical shipments).
Selling from a non-EU country (at least from here - Norway) to anywhere else - no VAT is charged by vendor.
Wouldn't that be a purchase tax?

Anyway, I can understand why things have to cost more if I buy from my "local" reseller, because they will then pay for extra shipping and handling from abroad, which won't then come on top of the end price, and which it's easy to forget when comparing prices. But it really doesn't make much sense why the LW packages have to be sent from US to Newtek-France and then to the Norwegian reseller. It just adds a lot of extra cost. Maybe there are good reasons for this inside the EU, but as we're not a member of EU it just doesn't make sense. The only parties that benefit from this are the shipping agencies.. It does make more sense if the Vue packages are shipped from France though...
But it still doesn't make sense to say that 1$ == 1€ !

robinson
08-11-2005, 12:26 PM
My local reseller charges 387,93 € (without VAT) for the Upgrade, that’s $ 481,61.

If you order Lightwave directly from the US, you would probably pay pretty much the same, there is Shipping and Handling (for Vue and Lightwave 9, don’t think they would deliver for free), then there are customs (duties) and USPS (some kind of US custom fee).
And after you ordered , you would wait for the Vue and Lightwave 9 delivery for days or weeks, great.

Ordering it from your local reseller or Newtek-Europe isn’t going to cost you much more and you wouldn’t have all the trouble, and avoiding that is worth a few more €.

The best way would be a download, but I think in germany you couldn’t write that off against taxes. (hope that's right and makes sense)

lightwolf
08-11-2005, 12:34 PM
One thing not to forget... If I'm not mistaken, NT-E doesn't ship packages from the US. They are manufactured in the EU and shipped from NT-E.
Also, as far as tech support etc is concerned... that is included in both the US and the EU prices, so charging more in Europe excused by tech support is not really reasonable.
Then again, Adobe couldn't tell me why they charge more in Europe for a non-translated english package of their software either ;)
Cheers,
Mike

robinson
08-11-2005, 12:43 PM
Also, as far as tech support etc is concerned... that is included in both the US and the EU prices, so charging more in Europe excused by tech support is not really reasonable.


Then try to reach anybody at tech support (USA) before noon. :D

biliousfrog
08-11-2005, 02:17 PM
I'll just add this & leave others to add any comments....

I bought Messiah:Studio workstation a while back. PMG sell it directly & I payed via credit card through PayPal. It cost me $299 including shipping, it arrived via FedEx to my door in the UK within a week & I didn't have to pay any extra duty or Tax. The package contained a DVD case with two disc's & the dongle, the same size & approximate weight as my Lightwave 8 package.

When ordering Lightwave 8 (with the recent crossgrade) I contacted Newtek Europe who put me in touch with a London reseller, they then told me that it was a US only offer. I contacted Newtek HQ who then told the reseller that it was also available in Europe (for more money), who then contacted me back. The final cost then had postage added & then Tax which came to nearly £80 more than the advertised price. I finally got my parcel almost two weeks after placing the order.

KillMe
08-11-2005, 02:22 PM
Shipping excessive. Man I have to pay US$75 for shipping to the Australian Distributor New Magic for Vue, and then another US$75 for them to forward it to me in Japan. Then pay double again for shipping of Lightwave 9 when it comes out a few months later. All becuase I can't buy Lightwave in Japan or US.

ok you win - feel free complain - though i am surprised there aren't lw retailer in japan i was under the impression it was widely used there

lightwolf
08-11-2005, 02:32 PM
ok you win - feel free complain - though i am surprised there aren't lw retailer in japan i was under the impression it was widely used there
I thought that was DStorm? And they seem to do great, even translating the complete app, manual and SDK to Japanese...

cheers,
Mike

telamon
08-11-2005, 03:27 PM
Normally in France we have to pay some custom taxes plus the VAT. The postman is supposed to get the charges on behalf of the fiscal services... It happened to me once...

rickycox
08-11-2005, 03:37 PM
ok you win - feel free complain - though i am surprised there aren't lw retailer in japan i was under the impression it was widely used there

Yes lightwave is big in Japan, so is miso soup :)
So why then did DStrom refer me back to New Magic??

Must be language thing.

habañero
08-11-2005, 04:07 PM
As the representative from Newtek Europe pointed out, it is likely that through some international treaty, local/EU accounting rule or US Law we would still have to pay VAT on lightwave if we downloaded it from the states. Customs is another question, but I don´t think it is very common with high custom fees on software? Custom authorities still struggle with downloads since it is often hard to tell exactly what is the origin country, and also you can easily arrange like virtual postbox companies that will circumvent about any custom scheme I can think of, and allow to take the profit out of the country without paying taxes through something called internal pricing. Most large US companies like Coke and Shell do this in Europe, in Norway they often have a 30% advantage over national corps on their margins through cheating their host countries outta their cut. Some states in the US have made rules that basically say "we are going to figger out what you earn and tax you", this is likely going to happen in EU as well in a while and hopefully set it more straight.

As I see it the globalic internet won´t mean that normal people will have to pay less taxes, it means it´ll be even easier for the filthy rich to do so and likely we will end up paying more taxes rather than less.

If Newtek were not to charge VAT, people with companies in Europe or the rest of the world would likely not be able to include the purchase of LW licences in their accounting, which in the end one way or the other would mean that it would actually be more expensive. Buying it privately and "sneak" use it at your business, for example, would mean you would have to pay the wage tax as well as maybe additional taxes on the purchase, not cheaper, and if your customers pay VAT you could not send the VAT cost to them as well.

Finally, I never understood the desire for cheating on taxes, small scale. In (most of) Europe we have free health care, paved roads and you can even live decently on welfare if you like to, it aint such a bad deal really. Secondly, if you first are going to break the law, you should do it on a scale that pays and in a way where you can control the risks well, read up on how the rich people do and do exactly the same.

Now to finish off I have to say, paying 150 bucks for shipping, that really is rough, I would like model tears ...

schuubars
08-11-2005, 04:46 PM
Hmm whats about switzerland for example?
That is Europe yes, but not EU , our VAT is for example 7.6% currently.


*Prices including VAT are calculated using the current French VAT rate= 19.6%


That's cool, not ? :D

Qexit
08-11-2005, 06:08 PM
Just to really confuse matters, if you download the software in the UK then strictly speaking it is VAT free. How come ? Simple. The actual software, as opposed to the media it is sat on, is classed the same as the written word, i.e. a book, and in the UK books are VAT free. This was an odd little loophole I was told by Customs and Excise :thumbsup:

Nu Visual Science
08-12-2005, 04:10 PM
Yep i can confirm downloads are VAT free in the UK.

red_oddity
08-13-2005, 12:50 PM
Finally, I never understood the desire for cheating on taxes, small scale. In (most of) Europe we have free health care, paved roads and you can even live decently on welfare if you like to, it aint such a bad deal really. Secondly, if you first are going to break the law, you should do it on a scale that pays and in a way where you can control the risks well, read up on how the rich people do and do exactly the same.

First, no health care is free, no road is free, no welfare is free...we just happen to live in a society where everyone pays for everyones else (a nice idea, but it just doesn't always work, as we in Holland have seen lately (new healthcare laws and system))

Secondly, i doubt anyone in here is gonna be the president of a large country with contacts in the Saudi regions anytime soon, nor is anyone in here making enough money to buy it's own government influencing lobby...


Anyhoo, as for taxes, i don't mind paying 'm as i can write them off from my companies income, perfectly legal.

habañero
08-15-2005, 03:18 AM
Heh, that paragraph maybe wasn´t meant that serious really, please don´t bring more politics into the dicscussion on my account. Could be an unhealthy addition to any kind of party, divisive topic. To rephrase my point, it is that some dollars more or less for an upgrade or purchase, it aint really that important to me as I reason almost all of my investment in LW is the time and the happiness I put into it, making it a Love machine that works just the way I like it. :twisted: The same reasoning goes for the Tax.

Like, most rich people today don´t keep their savings in dollar, they keep it in swiss banks in different currency and/or gold. In case the price of oil should stay high for any amount of time, about every analyst agree will produce a nasty US recessesion and probably a heavy crack as well. This will make the value of the dollar fall quite a lot, with no prospects of recovery in a while. You don´t need a oil sheik to tell you these kinda news, like the International Herald Tribune will easily keep you posted and there is something called the internet.

PSR
08-15-2005, 05:50 PM
Yep i can confirm downloads are VAT free in the UK.

That's very interesting. I don't think all plugin vendors realise that. For example the makers of "Easy Split" and "True Bump" add VAT to the price of their downloads.

Where is that information documented? Potentially big savings to be had there.

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