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cyartist
08-06-2005, 10:40 PM
More Inclusion would be great for the industry.
link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/08/05/minority.gaming.ap/index.html)

Spater
08-06-2005, 10:53 PM
More Inclusion would be great for the industry.
link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/08/05/minority.gaming.ap/index.html)

I dont see how. Take your talent where you find it, shouldn't matter your race.

Besides this has already been posted.

cyartist
08-06-2005, 11:45 PM
More users mean a expanding market. More different type of games if the creators have different life backgrounds which will grow the user base.

PhilOsirus
08-07-2005, 12:05 AM
The story found in games made by nerdy white people has always been biased in favor of the nerdy white people, just look at Half-Life 2! I want more balance in Half-Life 3's storyline than Half-Life 2! All this nerdy white guys stuff is unfair. Half-Life 3 should be made by a large number of non-nerdy black people, to give some balance to the story.

Ariel
08-07-2005, 12:17 AM
Different game types are a great thing. I'm all for variety and fresh stories and ideas... but The people that get the jobs, get them for a reason. Before your life background, religion and race.. you need to prove that you have skill in a particular area. I've interviewed people for artist positions at our company and I can honestly tell you that I've never consider race when making up my mind about hiring or not hiring someone. The bottomline are just 2 things: the character qualities of the person (responsible, ambitous, hard working, un-selfish, etc..) and obviously, their skills and knowledge as artists.

If blacks, latinamericans, or any other minorities want to be part of the industry, I think they need to do so on an individual basis and not as a group whose only thing in common is being a minority (which means that only a small ammount of them are skilled at all).

I know several black people working in the industry and they got there by individual hard work and not by going to some gaming school for minorities. (as a matter of fact, 4 of the best animators during my time in college were black guys) They took loans, worked part-time and did the impossible to receive a good education and now they have worked for major game and film studios. It really is all about hard work. I think that the opportunities are there for people who want to take advantage of them.

Ariel
08-07-2005, 12:19 AM
The story found in games made by nerdy white people has always been biased in favor of the nerdy white people, just look at Half-Life 2! I want more balance in Half-Life 3's storyline than Half-Life 2! All this nerdy white guys stuff is unfair. Half-Life 3 should be made by a large number of non-nerdy black people, to give some balance to the story.

I hope you're being sarcastic here..

nvvm
08-07-2005, 12:28 AM
I think you guys are missing the point, what I get from that when I read it is early exposure so kids have some direction or some idea what it takes in game development. Letting them know early on if it's something they want to do and invest the time and necessary effort to aquire the skills needed to be successful.

p.s. And the nerdy white guys comment was made in reference to how they are being portrayed in games. Not really meant as a insult, more like just a statement saying they are out of touch with the communities they try and emulate in the games. Of course that comes across one sided and can be offensive to some.

Lorecanth
08-07-2005, 12:30 AM
The story found in games made by nerdy white people.

I find it rather funny that they have to resort to a stereotype of white people, to justify not using stereotypes.

Mudvin
08-07-2005, 01:12 AM
All this nerdy white guys stuff is unfair. Half-Life 3 should be made by a large number of non-nerdy black people, to give some balance to the story.

No problemo, man, just make your own game with any number of "non-nerdy black people" you want.

noisewar
08-07-2005, 01:20 AM
what better way to perpetuate racism than by burning it at the stake for the sake of burning. I forgot about race many times, but damn media keeps reminding me. Berkeley doesn't help either.

richcz3
08-07-2005, 01:34 AM
I am 100% for that school getting minority kids into game design. The Urban Video Game Academy". There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and its great that a few minority leaders have taken their calling to benefit their communites.

Unfortunately it mixes good intentions with a "Social Agenda". That's the problem. "Social Agendas" segregate groups by building a mindset of "Us vs. Them". That ultimately undermines or defeats building a common ground. Statements like "It's been said that a bunch of nerdy white guys are creating these games," is unfortunate. Its been said by who? Maybe they should work in parallel with the public schools and address studying math and other related studies.

Ariel for the most part is right. People of all races need to accomplish this on an individual basis. Social agendas should be kept out of it.

Signal2Noise
08-07-2005, 02:54 AM
Funny...wasn't there a thread very similar to this one a couple of days ago? It ended up getting locked 'n' tossed.

Ariel
08-07-2005, 06:08 AM
Unfortunately it mixes good intentions with a "Social Agenda". That's the problem. "Social Agendas" segregate groups by building a mindset of "Us vs. Them". That ultimately undermines or defeats building a common ground. Statements like "It's been said that a bunch of nerdy white guys are creating these games," is unfortunate. Its been said by who? Maybe they should work in parallel with the public schools and address studying math and other related studies.

I couldn't have said it better. A bunch of "white nerdy guys" didn't get together and agreed to make games about minorities because minorities were not part of the development teams. Creation of stereotypes, while a reality, is something that people from all cultures do because of their lack of understanding of other cultures and most of the time is completely unintentional. Dev teams are increasingly becoming more and more international and diverse, so hopefully this aspect of game development will get better with time.

I personally think that the best possible work comes out of teams composed of people which are at the top of their field, working for one common goal, no matter what their skin color is. I agree with richcz3 in that this is a good initiative, but unfortunately might end up getting people together for the wrong reasons.


Funny...wasn't there a thread very similar to this one a couple of days ago? It ended up getting locked 'n' tossed.

This is a cg realted topic on a cg forum. An important discussion like this one is worth having and so far nobody here has been disrespectful about the subject or any particular racial groups. Lets have civilized discourse and continue the conversation :thumbsup:

AKDesigns
08-07-2005, 02:05 PM
pointless conversation... im SURE that the the term 'geek' encompasses all ethnic minorities, so i dont htink that this has ever been a problem in this industry. People are hired for their talent strictly in this business so i dont see why this has been brought up...

its exactly these kind of comments, that keep reminding us of our differences when they should really be ignored.

JeroenDStout
08-07-2005, 02:20 PM
Next step is introducing people with yellow eyes as an 'unused group'.
Could we please stop trying to include each and every type of human in gamecreation by force?

Shaderhacker
08-07-2005, 04:26 PM
pointless conversation... im SURE that the the term 'geek' encompasses all ethnic minorities, so i dont htink that this has ever been a problem in this industry. People are hired for their talent strictly in this business so i dont see why this has been brought up...


Ok, my take:

I completely understand the reasons behind such an endeavor. It's quite simple - black Americans today are intimidated by this industry (game and film). Most are already at a disadvantage coming out of high school with their parents not affording private schools to get better education, parents may have not been the best role-models, and/or the teens grow up thinking that playing sports is the best way to make money and therefore don't concentrate on the educational part of learning. It would be quite intimidating to go to these schools to learn this stuff when they are loaded with highly educated, gung-ho middle-to-high class white people. It would cause complexes just by being around such people. In that regard, they have two choices: 1) get over it, and spend double the amount of time as their peers in order to succeed (which may always be the case), or 2) not do so well because of believing what most people would expect - to fail. I continuously have to work harder than the next man because I know I'm being stereotyped. Even if you are qualified for the job, doesn't mean you will be accepted as the 'man for the job'...

Being in an environment where there are a lot of minorities would lighten the load sortof speak, but in my opinion, it's a little too forgiving. The reality is, this industry has more white workers in it than minorities. This could be an uphill struggle for a lot of black people simply because of stereotyping. It's not racism, but to me, it's almost as bad.

The question that most of you should ask is why are most black people not interested in this kind of industry? That's the problem. If there were more interested, then we wouldn't need this kind of tactic to attract minorities into the field.

-M

richcz3
08-07-2005, 05:59 PM
Simply put there is no overnight fix. The gaming industry didn't grow into a multi-billion dollar industry overnight. Of course it is very attractive now and people want in on what seems a boundless economy that plants money trees.

No social conscience or related mandate can correct 25 years of oversight and unpreparedness within specific communities. As a minority I salute the group of mentors willing to teach minorities the tools of the trade. But please, spare the crutch and excuse of racial preference unless they want to produce talent that carries a chip on its shoulders.

PBlades
08-07-2005, 06:42 PM
Talent and race are unrelated

kiaran
08-07-2005, 07:29 PM
People are hired for their talent strictly in this business so i dont see why this has been brought up...

its exactly these kind of comments, that keep reminding us of our differences when they should really be ignored.

Quoted for absolute agreement.

DigiLusionist
08-07-2005, 07:47 PM
Funny, we can have conversations about sex and violence, but it's uncomfortable to hold a discussion about race and gaming?

The reality is, we are all different races in this industry. In fact, one of the coolest things about this site, for example, is seeing the artistic styles of artists from different countries, cultures, and races.

If the Urban guys want to make an issue of race and the gaming industry, they do so for their reasons. That doesn't necessarily mean there really is an issue. In the meantime, we can chill and discuss things, right?

greynite1
08-07-2005, 08:26 PM
i will say that there are less oppurtunities for kids in schools of the inner cities in general. all those very important programs neccesary for getting into CG at all are being cut. I know my high school had no visual arts program at all. we had Drama, Chours, Band but no visual arts to speak of.

These kinds of extra programs that let kids develop the skills neccesary are being cut in school programs left and right. So the solution in my mind is to bring these programs back. If we need to cut something hey lets try cutting foot ball or Basketball for once lets see how many people we get that can actually produce something then. admittedly I'm biased but I always saw the worst behavior in the schools usually from the sports teams.

although in my school they were pretty good in fact the captain of the basketball team had a 4.0 average. So its not true all the time.

JeroenDStout
08-07-2005, 08:48 PM
Talent and race are unrelated
This actually is true, even in a non-"perfect world"-thought; though the urban legend that black people have more feeling for rythm is quite persistent, for instance.

kraal
08-07-2005, 08:50 PM
i look at it like this.... the gaming industry needs it's john singltons and spike lee's. This individuals are very talented and just decide to show a different perspective on life. Just look at it that way as we are talking about content and story really. I forget the name of the guy who produced the movie 'beat street' but he was white but the vision was not compromised, so again it is about content here.

just like the gaming industry could use more robert rodgriguez' again very talented just a different spin on stories.

PhantomDesign
08-07-2005, 09:07 PM
One important point people are missing is that the gaming job-market is already flooded. There are many highly-talented people that just can’t seem to get in the industry. I’ve seen this many times before: someone looking for brownie points (a.k.a. politics) with “good intentions” (liberal tactics) picks an easy reputation-boosting target (minorities) and meddles in a stereotyped over-hyped industry they know nothing about (video-games).

As a lower-middleclass-white-male, my question is… “Where is my mentor?” “Where are my scholarships?” Takes that however you’d like, but consider the irony if roles were swapped, wouldn’t the praise be replaced with hate?

percydaman
08-07-2005, 09:57 PM
i will say that there are less oppurtunities for kids in schools of the inner cities in general. all those very important programs neccesary for getting into CG at all are being cut. I know my high school had no visual arts program at all. we had Drama, Chours, Band but no visual arts to speak of.

These kinds of extra programs that let kids develop the skills neccesary are being cut in school programs left and right. So the solution in my mind is to bring these programs back. If we need to cut something hey lets try cutting foot ball or Basketball for once lets see how many people we get that can actually produce something then. admittedly I'm biased but I always saw the worst behavior in the schools usually from the sports teams.

although in my school they were pretty good in fact the captain of the basketball team had a 4.0 average. So its not true all the time.

I didn't have any sort of "visual arts" program in my school. Because I was interested in this field, I naturally found my way towards it... All I needed, and all ANYONE needs, is a computer, the internet, and the desire...

greynite1
08-07-2005, 10:27 PM
absolutely your right about that percy the thing was back when I was growing up the internet was still just really blowing up. There wasn't nearly the information there is now. there were no CG talks at least none that I knew of this was back circa 1990-94. I would have killed for a CG talk in high school. I admit I am jealous of the younger guys and gals we have comin up who have these amazing resources for learning.

I went to Phillip and Sala burton high school which was in the inner city and whilte we had computer classes the more entertaining applications of what we were learning were never discussed. There was also a pervading feeling amoung most parents including mine that video games were nothing more then a diversion for more "SERIOUS" pursuits. Nobody ever even understood at least not in my family that it could not only be a career path but a very lucrative one. I think what alot of people lack is knowledge about the possibilities.

For instance as weird as it might be I grew up knowing nothing about commercial art. How respectable of a career it can be. My schools focus anyway was on science math and technology which lended itself more to IT type things then CG work.

-Vormav-
08-07-2005, 10:38 PM
I have personally been quite impressed with how diverse this industry already is, from what all I've seen. I've been meeting people from all over the place - Korea, China, various parts of Africa and Europe, etc. If you think there's a lack of diversity here, try going into computer science. :shrug:

laureato di arte
08-07-2005, 11:45 PM
I posted a rant a year back when i first saw san andreas. My problem with that is the character and the ghetto stereotype, i had a feeling that there would be so many games with a similar type of urban stereotype after that damn stupid cj character. It kinda made me sick because it gloryfied thiis whole ghetto sterotype that rappers seem to want to glamorise. there is nothing glamorous about it. it is dumb not all black peeps want to be a gangster or pimp or some type of cj clone but it seems like this is the new fashion these days.

PhilOsirus
08-08-2005, 12:01 AM
Most are already at a disadvantage coming out of high school with their parents not affording private schools to get better education, parents may have not been the best role-models, and/or the teens grow up thinking that playing sports is the best way to make money and therefore don't concentrate on the educational part of learning.

Hey that sounds like my life! Except about the sports part, and I'm white, and I didn't concentrate on my education either. Then I realized I had learned nothing in high school because I never listened or cared, I went straight to back school, and now I'm possibly on my way to a career in the gaming industry a year from now. All of this with public funded schools and programs. If you say that parents being unable to pay for "good education" for their kids, maybe THAT is the problem, the fact that you have to pay for education to get a decent job. But even then I somehow doubt that everyone in the industry had to go to private school anyway.

The reality is, this industry has more white workers in it than minorities.

I suppose that applies to all industries as well, and it would make sense, the others being minorities would be present in lesser numbers. And how can you say "why are black people not interested in this industry"? What do you know and why should they? It's up to them to find an interest in what they want. It's their choice. And even then, there is no "they", it's up to individuals.

PhilOsirus
08-08-2005, 12:11 AM
i look at it like this.... the gaming industry needs it's john singltons and spike lee's. This individuals are very talented and just decide to show a different perspective on life.

Video games don't show any perspective on life, they are games, nothing more. There is no need for a Spike Lee of video games because there are no games out there that have been pushing a certain perspective on life for years. If you consider GTA a perspective on life, then fine, we have Shigeru Miyamoto with his perspective on life called Super Mario Bros. Makes sense?:p

greynite1
08-08-2005, 12:15 AM
Hey Phil

Hahaha You and me both. I actually didn't understand my path till about my 2nd year of college I went in for Poli sci first then Psychology then Film then finally realized I loved CG and Special effects from that. Mostly because I didn't know that there was such a clear cut path. If I had known then what I know now I would have never bothered with poli sci or Psych and gone straight for Illustration and art.

another thing I would have done in high school is gone to SF City college to take art foundation courses I didn't know that high school students could go to community colleges like that until about 3 years ago. My own ignorance of what was going on held me back too.

But yeah at most levels there are no mentors at young ages for our industry we don't neccesarily recruit anybody most people an already developed interest and kind of find there way here one way or another.

I also agree that not all kids want to have a GOOD education I know I screwed around for many years rather then focus on artistic pursuits. heheh I'm only 29 right now but by some standards thats old. I finally figured out the right path for what I want to do and hopefully I can stick with it this time. :)

Kion
08-08-2005, 12:47 AM
I think this is a good thing. It introduces making games as a carreer to people who may have not considered it. I'm black, I have wanted to be an animator every since i was able to pick up a pencil. When I told some people with in my community that I was going to be an animator/artist people tried to turn me away from it saying there is no career in it and that I would end up broke(starving artist). I stuck with it, and when i started working it made it that much sweeter. Thats why the Urban Video Game Institute is so important. It educates people and lets them know there are other options besides the usual. I don't know what kind of games would be the "minority experience" but I feel that games released now cover a wide spectrum of culture. I played GTA:SA I don't think its sterotyped its a story. Maybe i should make a game about me going to work(arrgh LA traffic!). hmmmm

gabe28
08-08-2005, 01:45 AM
Man, I've been working my ASS off on a reel forever. Now I find out that all I have to do to get into the industry is be a white nerdy guy? The hell with a reel, I'm just gonna send the game companys my head shot. I'll be working in games by next month!!!

richcz3
08-08-2005, 01:58 AM
For some it may help to read the article first.
The idea mentioned in the article is sound, part of the reasoning supporting less so.

PhilOsirus
08-08-2005, 02:33 AM
Well how about this cool-looking FPS title coming out soon called Prey? The main protagonist is a young Cherokee from Nevada whoends up as a prisoner of some alien spaceship and has to make his way out.:)

greynite1: Yeah same thing for me, I used to draw a LOT when I was a kid, but then I thought there was no future other than comic books, and comic books were basically an American or Japanese thing, there was no future for me there. So I gave up on drawing (big mistake). Once I was through with high school I headed to work in the print industry, wanted to change for something more art related like branding or some such, but I heard that I could actually find a job at some game companies in Montreal, my own city which I didn't even know had more than one game company in it. If I had known earlier, it would have been a clearly established choice for me years ago.

Maybe this is what this program will do, if it does then good. But I don't believe this whole race issue has anything to do with this. It has to do with money, otherwise I would not have a lived a situation that sounds a lot like what is described in the article considering I'm not a minority. We were poor, so I went to public school and hence missed on specialized programs that could have matched my interest. But this year the education ministry started the first public AEC program in partnership with a game company in order to offer game related classes. It's new, it's a small project, but hopefully it will grow in the years to come and fill in the void some kids have had in recent years as they try to find an industry to work in (if any) without seeing anything matching their interests.

cyartist
08-08-2005, 03:08 AM
I agree that the industry is diverse but mostly in other countries. America likes to pretend it is more inclusive. But the fact is a lot of creative industries outside of music are not diverse at all,movies ,advertising ,even games. Trust me I know I have worked in these industries and there are not alot if any African Amercans making creative decisions. This is because African Americans only became full citizens in 1965 given the voting rights act. They are still are lacking behind in certain industries. America is still very racist it issomething that it is still working on.
So I am not surprise by the article.

dmonk
08-08-2005, 11:02 AM
I hope you guys realize that the article was not about affirmative action in video games.

Some would say:

"If you don't feel that the game industry is representing your race or socio-economic background sufficiently or correctly, well go ahead and make some games that do."

This article addreeses that opinion by exposing the field to more minorities so that they can. I don't see a problem with that. It's a shame that some people are offended by this, even threaten. I start the same thread last week and it was shut down within an hour I think, simply beause people refuse to even attempt to have an open and intelligent discussion about it. I didn't see any mention of handing out jobs to minorites, just attracting more, so why is this so controversial?


Edit:
Nevermind......:rolleyes:

AKDesigns
08-08-2005, 11:08 AM
i think i gave such little regard to this topic as i live in london... it definately sounded like an american problem as soon as i heard it....

London is filled with nothing but ethnic minorities. get your magnifying glass out to find your anglo-saxon english.... I dont mind either way.. I am a minority group myself being greek cypriot, so sitting on this 'social fence' means that i usually can be very passive about race issues...

i am very sure that in london there is not a problem at all with black, white, green, purple, luminous and incandescent people wanting to apply for game design or wateva jobs.... if your good, your hired. simple as that. I have friends in the industry, one is jewish, the other is italian but i guess that not reeeally minorities though is it....

greynite1
08-08-2005, 06:39 PM
Hey Dmonk

well I thought we were having one now. Nobody seems to be getting really upset or anything. I think its cool. hmmm yeah I didn't see that thread unfortunately but so
far looks like this ones not getting closed. so lets run with it :P

I think bottom line what were dealing with as Phil and I were discussing is were dealing with people who just aren't exposed to the industry as a viable career path. Has nothing to do with capability knowledge or skill. Its granted that you can't even get into this industry unless you have the relevant skills. The article does seem to do the very american thing of over emphasizing race and the differences rather then similarities in my opinion. But thats kind of a nitpick. The overall theme just seems to be to raise awareness amoung other ethnicities that this is indeed a career path.

Yes this does might seem to be a specific American problem. However I tend to blame our quickly crumbling public school system which could indeed be such a very powerful equalizer as it has been in the past if people would just STOP CUTTING PROGRAMS!! also I believe that our types of industries and careers aren't even talked about in most public schools especially not in inner city onces. but I could be mistaken not like I get the newsletters from every school :) Most kids know about games though. they just might not know that they could be making them too.

and a fun solution to the problem less companies is if people take the risk and found more companies. :)

Art is communication and this is one form of art.

NickBFTD
08-08-2005, 10:16 PM
I posted a rant a year back when i first saw san andreas. My problem with that is the character and the ghetto stereotype, i had a feeling that there would be so many games with a similar type of urban stereotype after that damn stupid cj character. It kinda made me sick because it gloryfied thiis whole ghetto sterotype that rappers seem to want to glamorise. there is nothing glamorous about it. it is dumb not all black peeps want to be a gangster or pimp or some type of cj clone but it seems like this is the new fashion these days.

90% of what goes on in GTA games wouldn't make sense without that sort of stereotype, at least Rockstar do change the stereotype with each game.

cyartist
08-08-2005, 10:25 PM
to Dmonk


America still has a problem with inclusion. If you notice most of the offensive comments are from Americans. Americans are vary non inclusive and are not open to things outside their own ideas. It is something that all young countries have lack of a true identity. This country is only about 230 years old we still got a way to go. The comment from the Londoner helps affirms this.

NickBFTD
08-08-2005, 10:58 PM
it's worth noting that London is a lot different than the rest of the UK in many ways.

dmonk
08-08-2005, 11:29 PM
to Dmonk


America still has a problem with inclusion. If you notice most of the offensive comments are from Americans. Americans are vary non inclusive and are not open to things outside their own ideas. It is something that all young countries have lack of a true identity. This country is only about 230 years old we still got a way to go. The comment from the Londoner helps affirms this.

Point taken;)

pearson
08-09-2005, 06:57 AM
Pointing to the GTA series as racially offensive to people of African heritage seems very odd, considering the player character was white in every previous version of the game (admittedly in 1, 2 and their expansions it was a bit hard to tell because of the small sprites, but still!).

The crimes you commit in the game haven't changed from the very first, extremely pixelated, version, so it has nothing to do with the character's skin color. In fact with the last version, GTA Vice City, it was the Haitians who were up in arms that the rival Cuban gang told the player to "Kill the Haitians! (http://games.channel.aol.com/news.adp?articleID=76548&gameID=996)" :rolleyes:

As for taking underprivileged kids and exposing them to educational opportunities, I think that is very commendable. We need a lot more of that. But I don't think race should play a role, if it can be avoided. I lived in the ghetto for a while, and although most of my neighbors were African-Americans, there were lots of Latinos, too, and even a few Anglo-Saxon-Americans or whatever they prefer to be called... :p

sumpm1
08-09-2005, 01:02 PM
If a certain race finds that their race is not included in certain activities, they need to look deeper. I work with plenty of highly talented and educated black people. The CG industry is a very academic environment. Not only must you be creative and artistic, but also proficient in mathematics, and much patience is needed to learn the complicated processes involved in the software used to create the games. So to a point, you must be somewhat of a 'geek' to be able to suffer through such learning processes, merely for hobby. So ACADEMICS MUST BE A HOBBY. This may be where part of the problem lies.

If black people are concerned for example, that not enough black people are becoming doctors, what would the solution be... to open a medical school only black people? Or must you look at the differences in the black culture compared to other cultures that occupy medical occupations. Example 2, we find that not enough minorities are playing ping pong (I am renound for my retarded anlogies!). How do you force them to adopt this behaviour? Open "all black" ping pong rooms?

Simply opening a "black" or "minority" anything is not going to change the peoples behaviors. The opportunity to go to any school is there for any race. Is the reason that there are no minorities in a certain industry because the industry or schools reject the minorities upon application. Or are there deeper reasons that lie culturally internal to each race why they don't pursue certain careers?

No offense to black people here. My personal observation of black culture does not advocate academics as the most important part of life. I'm not talking about the schools. I'm talking about the culture. From what I see, the most imortant thing in much of black culture is being "cool". The clothes, the cars, the chrome, the rims, ebonics, slang , rap, hip hop videos, jewelry. It seems the importance here is to impress each other socially , NOT ACADEMICALLY. Where does academics fit into this culture? That is the issue, not whether there is an "all black" anything.

Once again, not to offend anyone. Race is very touchy and personal and so is culture. If you do not fit into the statements that I have made, then don't be offended, but look more objectively at the issues I address.

dmonk
08-09-2005, 01:21 PM
No offense to black people here. My personal observation of black culture does not advocate academics as the most important part of life. I'm not talking about the schools. I'm talking about the culture. From what I see, the most imortant thing in much of black culture is being "cool". The clothes, the cars, the chrome, the rims, ebonics, slang , rap, hip hop videos, jewelry. It seems the importance here is to impress each other socially , NOT ACADEMICALLY. Where does academics fit into this culture? That is the issue, not whether there is an "all black" anything.

Once again, not to offend anyone. Race is very touchy and personal and so is culture. If you do not fit into the statements that I have made, then don't be offended, but look more objectively at the issues I address.

WTF!

So how have you come to this conclusion? Do you live in a black community or just a lower income community that happens to be populated mostly by blacks?

Is this observation solely based on what you've seen on tv (Kind of the issue at hand)? How much time have you spent with a black family?

Your are your opinons, but you are in fact way off. The conditions you observe have more to do with economics and are not typical of a whole race. Your perception of black people is sad.

The truth of the matter is, people who grow up in under privledged environments are exposed to the arts enough? I'm sure any school that opened up for this wouln't be exclusive to one race. To your surprise maybe, none of the Historically black colleges are even exclusively black. The intention would not be to segregate, but to provide exposure to people who probably wouldn't get any, which in a lot of cases mainly would include minorities.

I'm trying not to be, but the fact is I'm very offended by your comments.

It's Ok for Arnold Swarzenegger, Brad Pit or any CEO to have a fleet of cars and half a dozen mansions, but If a black person does it, there is this impression that they are showing off and the whole black community has priority issues. Give me a break!

sumpm1
08-09-2005, 02:02 PM
WTF!

Dude, the last thing that I posted was don't get offended, and all you did was get offended. This thread contains differences in racial cultures made through observation, there are no attacks here bud. I am sorry if you feel that I am targeting you somehow here.

Do you consider Brad Pitt, Arnold, or some rich ass CEO's to be AVERAGE Americans?

I'm talking about the average joe here.

I work in a black community. Not all black people are the same,neither are all white people for that matter, so my statements are not made to attack anyone, or to judge you or anyone. I work with all races of people, and we are all different in culture whether you believe it or not. But when I talk about the "cool" factor, if this does not include you, don't take offense, it does not include ALL black communities or ALL black people. But you cannot deny that it is evident in black culture or SOME black communities.

When you say "economics" though... Are you somehow relating a communities racial majority to the community's economic situation? If so, what implications does that make on that race's culture? And does it relate to the thread?

dmonk
08-09-2005, 02:09 PM
I want to clarify my perception of the situation:



As a minority child growing up in a less than privileged environment it can be easy to fall into the opinion that your options for success are limited. There are the obvious choices, which happen to be the most noticeable ones (doctor, lawyer, Athlete, musician etc). The truth is not everyone made for these professions and sometimes you can’t force a square peg into a round hole. As a child if it is not apparent to you that there are a wide range of professions with the possibility for success for people that look like you, then you are less likely to pursue or even try out those paths. In a perfect world it shouldn’t be about race, but how many black hockey players in the US do you see skating around and how many Asian NBA players are there. Children don’t begin to see a profession as an option until they can identify with someone who is successful at it.


As far as for you sumpm1, I won't get into it. :rolleyes:

PhilWesson
08-09-2005, 02:10 PM
"your breath smells, you're ugly, you're short, and no one loves you... but don't get offended..."

Ok, an exaggeration, but still, it's pretty damn hard not to get offended by what you said.

Regardless of if you meant it or not, you made a generalization (a very incorrect one).

I've gotta side here and say that while i was trying not to be, I was offended as well.

Kid-Mesh
08-09-2005, 02:14 PM
Dmonk: I really wouldn't be that offended...he cant help it :shrug: as he said it's his personal opinion. It wasn't as if he was dishing out a personal attack or whatever but the obvious lack of exposure to the black community was apparent when he tried to describe our culture which I found sadly amusing.

Chrome? Bling? Ebonics? Jewelry? too funny. Man you watch way too much T.V. You should think about getting out and meeting "different" people sometimes :D

I'm here to tell you it's just maketing hype. I live in the city....I'm from Detroit. All that crap you see in videos is b.s. it's all fictitious crap. We aren't as stupid as advertised man, the majority of us knows that it's bull!@$# and is used to sell records, apparel and other crap that the urban communities don't even benefit from. Yet it's a big broad media brush that has unfortuneatly painted us all.

Life is a hustle, there are obstacles and road blocks for all races. Drug dealers, pimps, gang bangers, thugs, uneducated idiots, poor bastards, etc don't represent any race... that's just economics man. It's not just a "black" thing it affects everyone. Like I said, life is a hustle.

But African Americans are more diverse and educated than you might think. There are more blacks in college today then there ever was and less going to the military. Why in the heck do you think we have a military shortage now. Black kids have been going to college and getting all kind of degress across the board. But that stuff doesnt get advertised. For every black ghetto there is a white one too.

Just know this man, how marketable would we be if the media portrayed us a "normal folk"? Do you realize that hip hop a is multi billion dollar industry? That cash cow doesnt havent to worry about becoming steak for a long time man....gotta keep those stereotypes alive eh?


All im saying is just that life isn't what you see on TV or in a movie or hear in some stupid song....were all so much alike it isn't even funny. The only thing that makes us different is experiences and perception.

Mr. Luther King said it best, he hoped that one day his kids would live in a nation where they would not be judged by the color of their skin but the content of their character....damn are we anywhere near close to that? (Maybe)

But luckily for us CGTALK actually embodies that notion. We judge artist based on the content of their work and not their cultural and ethnic backgrounds....hey it's a start and I'm glad to be part of it. :thumbsup:

sumpm1
08-09-2005, 02:36 PM
In a perfect world it shouldn’t be about race, but how many black hockey players in the US do you see skating around and how many Asian NBA players are there. Children don’t begin to see a profession as an option until they can identify with someone who is successful at it.

I agree dmonk, and I'm not trying to spur a racial debate or anything here so I'll drop it.

@Kid Mesh: I work in a casino near Chicago. The casino is near numerous black communities. So while I haven't observed the entire country, it is not just one single community that converges here. I know you guys have plenty of casinos in Detroit also. So perhaps my vision of the black community is somewhat skewed by the type of people that are attracted to the casino. I do see plenty of people wearing lots of excessive jewelry to the point that is almost comical, but I in no way visualize this as the entire black community or consider it a "pillar" of the culture.

What I do see more prevelant though is the language and slang, and the need to be "cool" in the use of this.

Once again I apologize for any offense. I don't think anyone is ugly, stinks,and god damnit..... I LOVE YOU MAN!!!

Kid-Mesh
08-09-2005, 03:35 PM
sumpm1- Hahahah I Love you too man! :D your killing me!

It's alright, this world isnt perfect it never will be as differences make the world go around. But anyway slang is more complex than you might think. For one it's not a universal language.

For example:

-People on the West side speak a different form of slang than those on the East side of town.

-People on the Southwest side of town speak a different form of slang than those on the Northeast side of town.

Up here in Detroit we can tell exactly what part of the city your from by the slang you use and how you wear your clothes. No one speaks proper english except for when neccessary like when one is involved in a professional setting. ...when did "Dude" become part of the "proper" english language? Have you ever heard surfers talk to each other or these kids at the "X" games? That's slang or some form of "___bonics"

Slang is what's up with the youth these day's...black, white, asian, hispanic whatever. If I were to learn a new language just so I could get around town I'd rather learn the slang than what's proper. Do you speak proper english with your friends?

ASFAIC people that are attracted to casinos regardless of race is a whole different type of topic. You gotta be crazy to want to give your money away....I think casinos attract crazy people j/k :D

Plus cmon dude, we dont feel the need to be cool because "The Fonz" :thumbsup: has that wrapped up!

This world is hectic enough as it is with all it's social contraints, I think we have all evolved enough to the point to where we can wear mulitple lingual type hats depending on whom we are hanging with at the time.

pearson
08-09-2005, 05:41 PM
The first quote in the article says they are setting this up to generate games/stories from people with different perspectives than the typical "nerdy white guy".

On that topic, the demographic I'd most like to see encouraged to enter gaming is women. I've read a lot of books, and used to only read books written by males (sci-fi doesn't seem to attract lots of women). When I branched out to fantasy, there were more female authors in that genre, and I was quite surprised at how differently they tell stories. Some of my favorite books are written by women, and I find their books to be richer, and the characters more complex/complete.

I think it would be very interesting to see games made by women, and see if they can have a similar positive impact as they have had in books.

richcz3
08-09-2005, 06:34 PM
This thread has seriously derailed.

In order to be constructive about the ideals these mentors want to instill in these students, the best question has gone unanswered in the article itself. Aside from heroes mentioned in their communities.

What kind of game would they produce?

What would it be about?

How would it be defined by this different perspective?

And....

Is there a market for it?


We need the answer to those questions.

Anyone can say and use the word perspective, it's another thing to actually substantiate what they mean and apply a real marketable purpose.

PhilWesson
08-09-2005, 06:50 PM
What kind of game would they produce?

What would it be about?

How would it be defined by this different perspective?

And....

Is there a market for it?


As far a what kind of game they would produce, I think that there are way too many factors to even speculate. I would be as bold as to venture maybe a game that portrays the culture as more than just gangs, guns and bling (at least, that's what i'm hoping for). Of course, they could also go for a game with a fuzzy cute mascot jumping on platforms, swinging a magical umbrella and monsters for points... who knows?

Is there a market for it? Well again, that depends. Just because an ethnic group decides to make a game doesn't mean that the game will focus on issues specific to that ethnic group.

Bottom line is, would this group be making a profit? If so, they're probably gonna go the route of all the other game companies and make what sells.

greynite1
08-09-2005, 07:09 PM
As anything else aside from the Ahem Difference of opinions we have here on certain things its important to keep talking. Don't shut anybody out or down disagree with them absolutely refute their claims 100% but don't stop talking to each other that doesn't solve anything. remeber

I agree the thread has derailed.

I think that whatever games this new group makes will hopefully have a market and sell very well. Because A good video game just reaches across all boundries. I don't think anybody in here can say that Half Life 2 was not an awesome game. Thats what the focus needs to be on GOOD well constructed games with good content. My fondest hope for them is that they get the skills they need to go out into the world of games and get great jobs or found their own game studios. Then again i wish that for everybody. :)

richcz3
08-09-2005, 07:17 PM
I personaly support what these mentors are doing for the kids. At its heart it is constructive. Unfortinately, on the social agenda, there's little meat on their bones of contention.

From Article

"A growing number of people in the booming industry believe there should be more black and Hispanic heroes and heroines instead of hoods and hoodlums."

That would rule out the violence and lifestyle stereotypes propogated in music videos. So what unique un-white titles would we be looking at?

"It's been said that a bunch of nerdy white guys are creating these games," Armstrong said. "The problem with a bunch of white guys creating the games is that the story isn't being created with balance."

And that ballance is?........

" Roughly 80 percent of video game programmers are white, according to preliminary results of an International Game Developers Association survey. About four percent of designers are Hispanic, and less than three percent are black."

Statististics mean nothing. They are brought up to cause a stir. What concepts and ideas do they bring to the table? What would we be playing if the numbers were inverted?

ash18march
08-09-2005, 07:24 PM
ok iwas reading through all the post i am from neither of races nor a white nor a black no no i am not an alein i am from india and my skin colour is between black and white oh my god this is the first time i am describing my skin colour to some one to be serious now
from what i realy feel when i am reading this post is we are looking at things from a narrow prespectives firstly in this industry and in any industry sports what ever whats realy counts is realy ones talent complemeted with ones hard work if i am going to hire some one for work dose colour of skin dose it raly matter does it increase efficeny or profit of a company well i dont belive it does . THE second thing is about opputinity one has if he is of this race or that race seriously we all have problems in life life is other name for strrugle we have to strrugle at one point in life so race does not dictate its upto each individual to face such challange.the last thing i want to add is we just cannot commient on any one culture and should strcitly refrain from doing so all cuture have their postive and negatives and that too how u look at it .
a while back i read a in a post that indan 3d artist are stealing 3d jobs i felt quiet offended by that but i will just say 2 words for this hard work and talent . its this combination which is so vital for evryone i play in a local football team and i had some placyers who had come from europe and nigeria playing along side and we mixed up so well come on guys finally we all are human beigns thats what is more important like in india we have the tigers with yellow skin and the white skins they both are beautifual and charsimatic so are all human beings regardless of their skin religion and location ,sex :)

richcz3
08-09-2005, 07:34 PM
Sorry a bit OT

Ash - you left out cost. There is talent, hard work and cost. That's three things. There is plenty of talent and hard workers here. It's that the cost of being competative requires moving jobs offshore.

Case in point...Complete different industry

Did You Know?. If I had a serious medical ailment that required extensive medial surgery. I would go to India to be operated on.
1. Many US doctors come from India
2. Many of those doctors are very knowledgable
3. The cost of surgery is less than 1/5 the cost here in the US. That and the after surgery care is 1000 times better than the US. Why because our medical and insurance system is in financial shambles.

One must never rule out cost as long as they include the other virtues. :)

greynite1
08-09-2005, 07:45 PM
Hey Richz


Thats a good question. well since you know the obvious we are all people and we all want similar things as human beings. one could argue that the changes in most situations might be cosmetic. Unless the game really takes the time in the story telling and scripting to emphasize the differences rather then the similarities in people. The settings themselves could be very culturally specific. I guess it depends on what the objective is, to just make good games or be politically topical. I have no problem with either myself. 50 cent is coming out with his own game if some of you know called Bulletproof don't know how good of a game it is, and its obviously kind of a vanity piece. Who knows could be good does anybody here know more about it?

I think in this case the balance they are going for is just more ethnicities in those kinds of positions. I happen to work in the industry probably like many of you and I don't quite see all nerdy white guys. There are alot of Indian and Asian people here too. It is true however there are significantly less African Americans and Latinos working in the main engineering postions. They are there there is just less of them and in the places where I have worked it varies by department.

Don't know that answer to that question any answer posited is kinda hypothetical but since this is a business which would be playing to a similar audience even if those particular stats were reversed my guess would be pretty much the same thing.

greynite1
08-09-2005, 07:49 PM
very good point in COST

here is a question though. Lets say all the jobs of video games did go over shores from EA and whoever else.

OT: would it be possible for us to just found NEW game studios and new markets for us to do here. Like Fine okay you won't hire me I'll just make my own damn studio? I have always wondered that question. Now of course at first it would be a struggle but in that instance alot of the people working would have something to prove. Thus would it be possible to undercut the big studios and make brand new properties?

dmonk
08-09-2005, 07:55 PM
You know what we should focus on with this issue besides race, Economics.

I grew up in the ghetto, my next door neighbor was hispanic, two doors down from me the family was white and a Sri lankan family owned one of the corner stores. All of te kids got along, but we all had different cultural perspectives. The one thing we had in common, was lack of money and exposure to certain priviledges that kids in a better area may have taken for granted.

Art classes in one school district can lead to graduates going to Parsons.

Lack of art classes in another district can lead to a bunch grafitti artist with potential, but misdirected focus and under developed talent.

I believe the under privledege are a minority, what they have in numbers, they lack in resources. So it's unfair of me to exclude any race when they probably are in the same boat.

What could diversity bring to the gaming industry?

Tough to answer. How about for every CJ, we get a black Batman :shrug:
(that was a joke)

I don't see having having more people from different ethnic experiences hurting the game industry.

dmonk
08-09-2005, 07:58 PM
very good point in COST

here is a question though. Lets say all the jobs of video games did go over shores from EA and whoever else.

OT: would it be possible for us to just found NEW game studios and new markets for us to do here. Like Fine okay you won't hire me I'll just make my own damn studio? I have always wondered that question. Now of course at first it would be a struggle but in that instance alot of the people working would have something to prove. Thus would it be possible to undercut the big studios and make brand new properties?

Sidenote: You have basically just described the evolution of the hip hop industry.

greynite1
08-09-2005, 08:01 PM
Hahaha


Dmonk you caught that huh. :)

its kinda interesting that is also how alot of the labels done by music stars have come about like Sean John and such from what I hear. In the music merchandise industry there is a huge movement amount hip hop stars and others to create their own companies cutting out traditional merchandising companies while winning those people in charge huge profits.

Boone
08-09-2005, 08:01 PM
Well, its partly about customers willing to buy the end product and that games requiring disgusting amounts of money to produce is like forcing a horse to carry a Hippo on its back. :argh:

For example, the current favourite game is GTA. It has R'n'B and "Gangsta" writen all over it...

Rule No.1: Every game from now on should include a bit of R'n'B or "Gangsta" in it as it will sell more copies. :buttrock:

Now you get an African dude( or dudette! ) who has a strong influence of Shaka Zulu in their work...

Rule No.2: Shaka Zulu has nothing to do with R'n'B or "Gangsta" - anyone who suggests that they make a game influenced by the grand history of the Warrior King should have been Strangled at birth. :wip:

And as money talks in the games industry...

Rule No.3: Anyone who suggests an idea that may threaten profits should have been thrown into a pit of bloody-thirsty dogs at birth. :wise:

Hell, lets just get it over with...

Rule No.4: Anyone who wants to remain employed in the games industry should have a copy of 50cents new album. Recieved, of course, at birth. :lightbulb

richcz3
08-09-2005, 08:04 PM
Sidenote: You have basically just described the evolution of the hip hop industry.Too funny I've been so tempted to bring that up, but I didn't have the way to apply it.
Yes, most entertainment industries embrace the Maverick or "Against the grain" entrepreneur. It's never an easy bet and the work often takes many years to establish, but it most definately happens. :thumbsup:

pearson
08-09-2005, 08:06 PM
I think 50 cent's game is going to be a fresh new perspective, a complete 180 from that ghetto+bling+violence stereotype those nerdy white guys show in GTA San Andreas...

lol

dmonk
08-09-2005, 08:16 PM
Too funny I've been so tempted to bring that up, but I didn't have the way to apply it.
Yes, most entertainment industries embrace the Maverick or "Against the grain" entrepreneur. It's never an easy bet and the work often takes many years to establish, but it most definately happens. :thumbsup:

Basically,

Strip away the all too common negative aspects of the industry and what basically have is a multi billion dollar industry that started from a small group of individuals who felt that there interests weren't being fairly represented in the music industry.

Sound familiar to what we're talking about. Think Rick Rubin and Russel Simmons.

Frojack
08-09-2005, 09:09 PM
Tough to answer. How about for every CJ, we get a black Batman :shrug:
(that was a joke)


I wasn't going to involve myself but Dmonk, you are too cool man. Imagine... " Tell your freinds about me foo..."

On a side note, I had quite happily forgotten about this whole 'difference' thing. Oh well...

greynite1
08-09-2005, 09:45 PM
Hey Frojack


yeah when put in these contexts differences are no fun. But hey aren't we all unique and interesting beings? its okay to celebrate differences and value what other people bring to the table. It can be a source of strength. :) It all depends on if you look at those differences as negative things. :)

I happen to like that everybody is not like me and has other experiences and things. :)

sorry was that kinda too feel goody :)

cyartist
08-09-2005, 10:56 PM
What the gaming industry needs is for a couple of unheard of brothers to start they own company and put the whole industry on lock down.

cyartist
08-09-2005, 11:01 PM
here are some tiltles to start it off

1. Frojack ...a better version of Gran Theft Auto in the so call safe suburbs.
2. Forget Doom3.....Night of the Zulu

LOL like Dave Chapelle

nubian
08-10-2005, 12:58 AM
hey guys....what's going on in here? :)

DotPainter
08-10-2005, 01:04 AM
Well lets put it this way,

Hip Hop (not just gansta rap but graffiti, clothing, break dancing, spoke word... etc) was
an underground art form that became mainstream and influenced many artists.
Today graffiti is an international art form from the US to Paris to Australia. How many
3d heads got their start with Fat Tips, Krylon and Sketch Books? Hip Hop is the biggest
thing right now in American music. Not because African Americans are the only ones that buy it, but because it has become part of the mainstream around the world. Therfore, just
from that alone, it shows the potential of African Americans in artistic endeavors. The point is that African Americans have just as much creative potential as anyone else, if harnessed correctly. The only problem with 3d is that you need computers, which require
TLC to keep running and aren't something that can just be thrown under a bed or on the
shelf or around in a backpack willy nilly like sketchbooks, markers or spraypaint (even
though those tools are indispensable for a REAL artist earning his street cred :D). So
programs like this, with proper funding and support are a perfect way to bring tools to
the masses and allow them to play with stuff they may not otherwise have access to.

I think the problem is that gansta rap as the most visible aspect of the Hip Hop Generation or Gen X, if you prefer, has had a great impact on how many around the world view African Americans. It also overly glamorizes the wrong lifestyle for young kids in communities where such violence is all to real. Therefore, this is where such a program can fit in and show children other opportunities to grow and express themselves, other than the world of the streets.

Like others have said, this has nothing to do with race, other than the fact that many
African Americans are possibly underrepresented in the games industry. How do you
change that? Well programs like this are a start, but the goal should not be about pure
racial statistics (even though politics being what it is it will still be important), it is about
offering opportunities to young people, no matter who they are, so that they too can
"see the light" and maybe make a decision to take their lives in the right direction. Demonizing those in the games industry who have worked hard and done well and happen
to be white is ludicrous.

And actually if I REALLY wanted to be gansta about it I would just make a game called
"KILL!" featuring hours of running around shooting things up, blowing up, stabbing up and smacking up anything that moves. Then I would have big pictures of naked women spread throughout.... in secret closets and hideouts with virtual joints and nude women where a
player could show his rep points against other DOAs. All backed up with lyrics telling yo mama and the congress and others who are against such "useless
pursuits" to shut the **** up! ..........

And it would sell millions :twisted:


oohhh... my bad already done..... that is GTA series and all FPS' that have come along already. :shrug:

cyartist
08-10-2005, 02:58 AM
Hip Hop was pure until the industry whose executives are mostly white trick out the art form from it's original roots. These capitalist realize that it is easier to make money by appealing to shallow ideas of what is to be a African in America. As I stated earlier many white americans are not adepth about exploring other people value systems outside their own because they don't have a strong sense of identity. Many African Americans are also in this situation. And many rappers know this so they exploit it to their advantage. We are all guilty simply because we live in a shallow monolithic culture.

AKDesigns
08-10-2005, 03:04 AM
bet this thread gets closed soon

cyartist
08-10-2005, 03:12 AM
If it does it had a good run. At least some commnuication on the issue was made. And that is a good thing for the industry.

Boone
08-10-2005, 05:48 PM
It could be worse - we could be back in the 80s!

Rule No.1: All games must include white, gay F-14 fighter pilots. :D

Rule No.2: To be in the games industry, you should also be a white, gay F-14 fighter pilot. :p

PhantomDesign
08-10-2005, 07:31 PM
GTA = Gamin Industry?
I would have rather skipped the GTA discussion, but the drifting of the subject does prove an interesting point. This culture-reform effort which broadly targets the game industry is based on a single game: GTA San Andreas. Where else can you find such a portrayal in the gaming industry? Those backing this culture-reform effort are guilty of being narrow-minded, NOT the game-industry.

Why does every black person have to be a positive role-model? Is GTA evil simply because it ignores that politically-correct cultural norm? IT may be evil for other purposes as those who play GTA know of “cultural faults,” but considering the complaints that have surfaced, it’s quite clear the complainers’ sources are casual observation and word-of-mouth. As much as I’d like to address all misunderstandings, I’ll focus on the focus of the article – stereotyping.

GTA Stereotyping
This entire effort is based on a misunderstanding of the over-blown stereotype in a single game – sad really. Those who play the game (if you don’t, you don’t matter) know now non-offensive the exaggerated stereotyping is. GTA has inflated stereotypes as far back as I can remember. Lets take a quick look at the latest games in the series…

GTA 2
Main Character: Unsure
Stereortypes: Didn’t play it much, but I remember some guys dressed as Elvis walking in a line. If you ran over them all it said something like “Elvis has left the Building!”

GTA 3
Main Character: Anonymous White Guy
Stereotypes: You have a big-business “hostile takeover by any means necessary” white guy, Italian mobsters, oriental yakuza (a gang), a southern right-wing wannabe-army-guy, etc.

GTA: VC
Main Character: Tommy Vercetti, Italian Mobster
Stereotypes: You have a big-business “hostile takeover by any means necessary” white guy, Italian mobsters, immigrant minority gangs, a southern right-wing wannabe-army-guy, etc.

GTA: San Andreas
Main Character: Carl Johnson (CJ), Black Gangster
Stereotypes: You have a white CIA agent, Italian mobsters, immigrant minority gangs, oriental yakuza, black & hispanic gangs, some greasy bat donut-eating white cop, an aging hippy, a nerdy white guy, black rappers, ultra-right-wing gun-toting extremists, …and that’s not even ˝ the stereotypes!

Rockstar has made a joke of every single stereotype they can think of! The joke is the stereotype itself, not those who fit the stereotype. They push the stereotype to such an extreme I don’t know how anyone can take offense! They make fun of the "gangsta" lifestyle!

That is just one thing casual observation misses. So, the game is about cop-killing, drug pushing, and prostitution? No, through most of the story you are fighting drugs and finish the game removing corrupt backstabbing people. Sure you progress through the criminal underworld, but the story focuses on improving life for those you care about, removing drugs from the streets, and the demise of corrupt or backstabbing people.

Project Failure:
(1) The market is already over-saturated, this can only increase saturation. The increased saturation will not only hurt the industry, but hurt particiapants as they can’t get jobs (except by racial-favoritism). The ignorance of this basic fact only goes to show how little they understand the industry.

(2) It’s a social agenda, based on emotions and good intentions rather than substance. Worst of all it misunderstand the industry’s composition & misunderstands the target of it’s social agenda (GTA). It’s interesting to see whiners try to achieve something, but it’s still based on whining.

(3) There’s a lack of economic potential. It’s just a huge sink-hole that will drag down program-participants and investors. If they were really interested in success of this agenda, they need to creatively design a concept that will (1) achieve their social agenda and (2) sell to consumers. You can’t make a dent if you can’t compete.

Why GTA sells…
GTA: San Andreas sold because of it’s exaggerated hip-hop culture, violence, drugs, sex, cussing, and everything evil you can think of. WRONG. The primary reason it sold was open-ended gameplay. Massive environments, driving cars/ airplanes/ hovercrafts/ helicopters/ boats, using knives/baseball-bats/ chainsaws/ pistols(silenced)/ SMGs/ Rockets/ Grenades/ etc, sky-diving, jet-packs, military jets/helicopters….and I haven’t even started to list the possibilities (just discovered you can climb trees yesterday!).

The icing on the cake is you can use these tools in any way you want. I’m sure many of you (guys) have day-dreamed about pulling out an PRG/machinegun and completely tearing up some place, escaping the cops in a high-speed pursuit, getting set loose in a military jet/helicopter. You don’t have to do that - you can rescue people in ambulances, take down criminals, fight drugs, perform stunts, or even drive safely. YOU play the game - it might not be fairies, wizards, and magic or orcs, elves, and dragons, BUT it is fantasy and escape nonetheless, one you can control and create!

dmonk
08-10-2005, 08:14 PM
Would you object to a group of people openning up a privately funded computer graphics training facility for young people in an under privledged urban area?

Or is your stance that the industry is already oversaturated so we shouldn't try and attract more people?

Frojack
08-10-2005, 08:25 PM
here are some tiltles to start it off

1. Frojack ...a better version of Gran Theft Auto in the so call safe suburbs.
2. Forget Doom3.....Night of the Zulu

LOL like Dave Chapelle


Some cool ideas cyartist, but to tell you the truth (shssh :) ) I'm not really a fan of the GTA games. The first one was fun. Second one got a bit samey. Then the rest was like a trip to Sainsbury's (or a supermarket to the US guys). Example:

-collect some milk

-dodge the granny

-collect some snacks

-stop by the deli counter, get the cute girls number

-go back to ask when she gets off work and if she has a cute sister

-collect a slap

-Repeat

Sainsbury's is a far more fun :D .


@greynite1:
I dig what your saying. I know full well the richness difference adds to our lives. It's just that sometimes we can forget that we're all more or less the same too :) . Where I work, the people at the company are truly joyous. Pure harmony man. It could be just a British thing, but I hope there are pockets of this stuff in the States aswell. Otherwise you guys just aren't livin' right :) .

About GTA? It's just a game guys. Pure fiction. Nothing more. Austin Powers is a great example of stereotypes in entertainment. Harmless fun, nothing more. The people who actually believe that the British are like that? A pleasant supprise for them on meeting some :) . No biggy'. Peace guys.

Darktwin
08-10-2005, 10:10 PM
No offense to black people here. My personal observation of black culture does not advocate academics as the most important part of life. I'm not talking about the schools. I'm talking about the culture. From what I see, the most imortant thing in much of black culture is being "cool". The clothes, the cars, the chrome, the rims, ebonics, slang , rap, hip hop videos, jewelry. It seems the importance here is to impress each other socially , NOT ACADEMICALLY. Where does academics fit into this culture? That is the issue, not whether there is an "all black" anything.

Once again, not to offend anyone. Race is very touchy and personal and so is culture. If you do not fit into the statements that I have made, then don't be offended, but look more objectively at the issues I address.

You hit the nail on the head, I being a black american have severally studied this and black culture through my personal experience, historical study of the last 50 years, and general observation. You are completely right when you say education is not the primary concern of the majority of black society. Who do you see as the prominent role models on television today of African-American decent. Athletes and Rappers, thats pretty much sums it up. And if you think about it, thats really ridiculous. The only real concern for the majority of African americans are material possessions, trying to emulate the lifestyle of a music video being simply a facade.
The problem that lies with this is education, and black society being urban or southern severely needs reform in education. Now I understand that the majority of any race or ethnic group will reject higher education, only a small percentage of of people will ambitiously rise through the educational ranks. But that percentage is disporortionate amongst blacks americans reletive to the other racial ethnic groups in America. I could historically explain why this is but that is not the point of this thread.

The only thing the article argues for an fair introduction to the CG industry for black aspiring CG artist. And thats a great idea, but race related ideas are always marginalized with titles like "black academys" and such.

PhantomDesign
08-11-2005, 05:33 AM
Would you object to a group of people openning up a privately funded computer graphics training facility for young people in an under privledged urban area?

Or is your stance that the industry is already oversaturated so we shouldn't try and attract more people?
As flowery as good intentions are, sometimes you have to read the fine-print. :deal: I have two main objections to the program itself…
[1] Minority programs have an inherit flaw of segregating the “non-minority.”
[2] With the over-saturation of the CG job-market, ‘graduates’ of such a program will (1) be let down by a lack of jobs or (2) receive then unfairly.

The solution would be to…
[1] Focus the program on underprivileged urban people (rather than minorities).
[2] Choose an industry that needs workers.

The problem with those solutions is if contradicts the goal…
[1] The goal of positive-role-model-minorities is diminished as under-privileged whites enter the program.
[2] The goal is to affect the gaming industry, choosing another industry doesn’t make sense.

If the facts / intelligent discussion don't convince you ("good intention" supporters are always feelings-based), every time I see a hispanic-schollarship, minority training program, or black-awarness activity - I'm the one being left out, attacked, and stereotyped just because I was born white. :banghead:


Let me address the article itself…

ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- In the popular video game "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas," players assume the lead character of Carl Johnson, a down-on-his-luck criminal who roams city streets, stealing cars and helping gang members knock off rivals in drive-by shootings.

"CJ," as he's known by his pals, is black -- and to some in the video game industry, that's a problem.

A growing number of people in the booming industry believe there should be more black and Hispanic heroes and heroines instead of hoods and hoodlums.

"Not everybody goes outside with bling-bling and listens to rap music all day," says Amil Tomlin, a black 15-year-old from Baltimore who plays hours of video games each day.
Among those trying to paint a different racial picture is Mario Armstrong, who hosts a weekly National Public Radio program on technology. He and two fellow black colleagues have started the Urban Video Game Academy, a virtual programming boot camp for minorities.

This is like starting a Christian school to ‘combat’ a rap-singer that cusses. GTA: San Andreas is one game & they’re turning it into an industry crisis. People know most Blacks are not like CJ already, the gangster lifestyle (the first 20% of the game) is far from glorified in the game. It’s beating a dead fish as I’m certain Rockstar is already working on their next GTA.

"It's been said that a bunch of nerdy white guys are creating these games," Armstrong said. "The problem with a bunch of white guys creating the games is that the story isn't being created with balance."
Who’s gulty of stereotyping?
Roughly 80 percent of video game programmers are white, according to preliminary results of an International Game Developers Association survey. About four percent of designers are Hispanic, and less than three percent are black.
They failed to address the relative populations of areas studied. If 80% of the population is white, then it’s quite balanced.
The academy is holding summer workshops in Atlanta, Baltimore and Washington to give minority students like Tomlin an opportunity to learn the basics of making video games. Organizers hope this early exposure will inspire a new generation to make minority video game characters that go beyond typecast racial roles.
"I'd love to hear what other stories exist in the world besides the stereotypical ones. There are good people in the ghetto. There are role models," said academy co-founder John Saulter, who runs Entertainment Arts Research, one of the industry's few black-owned video gaming companies.
Where are these rolemodels? Those that do succeed leave behind the ghetto, leave behind complaints and whining & do it themselves! Handouts create dependent people, just look at what welfare does to families.

So far, interest in the workshops has been high, which doesn't surprise organizers.
A March study by the Kaiser Family Foundation revealed that black youths between 8 and 18 years old played video and computer games roughly 90 minutes a day -- almost 30 minutes more than white youths. And Hispanics play about 10 minutes more per day than whites.

"If you've got kids who can sit in front of a game for eight hours, then they have the cognitive thought process to learn how to build the game," Saulter said.
Some in the industry believe race in games is a serious issue that has been ignored for too long.
Race is ignored because it doesn’t matter…until someone whines that the latest GTA protagonist happens to be black.
"For a long time, we've talked in the game industry about gender diversity as the one problem on the radar, but the racial split is worse," said Ian Bogost, a Georgia Tech game design professor who recently published a book on video game criticism.

Jason Della Rocca, IGDA's executive director, said the industry must confront a cycle that threatens its creativity: Educated, young white males create games for other educated, young white males.
Ironically, the article mentions that minorities play more than whites - so much for creating games for educated white males. *OUCH* The REAL problem is the stereotyping of the PLAYERS as white nerds.


"Games are an expressive medium. They are an art form, just like movies, theater and literature," Della Rocca said. "We're seeing, to a large extent, that the games that are being designed unconsciously include the biases, opinions and reflections of their creators."

In a way, he said, stubbornness to diversify runs counter to the industry's tolerant roots.
"We like to think that game design is a higher calling and that no one really cares what your skin color is or your sexual orientation," Della Rocca said. "But that doesn't seem to manifest itself in terms of a more diversified workplace."
I read “diversified workplace” as Affirmative Action. Why can’t we do what we’re good at rather than pushing a social agenda by giving people unfair advantages based on race? Can’t we just leave it as “no one really cares what your skin color is?”

CArnold03
08-11-2005, 06:32 AM
Well, I hope those kids make the most out of it and get what they need to make a good go at it, regardless of the fears of career field saturation or not.

dmonk
08-11-2005, 12:19 PM
This thread has seriously derailed.

In order to be constructive about the ideals these mentors want to instill in these students, the best question has gone unanswered in the article itself. Aside from heroes mentioned in their communities.

What kind of game would they produce?

What would it be about?

How would it be defined by this different perspective?

And....

Is there a market for it?


We need the answer to those questions.

Anyone can say and use the word perspective, it's another thing to actually substantiate what they mean and apply a real marketable purpose.

Hey Rich,

I kindo of through with dwelling on this topc, but I came across this article this morning. Which relates to your question of if there a market for it. I thought it was an interesting read.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8162596/

Phantomdesign,

Your concerns are understandable. I'm not saying that I completely agree with you, but I can understand your perspective.

As far as CG goes if an artist or TD can't cut it they shouldn't get the job. I give the industry the benefit of the doubt that no one is intentionally excluding minorities.

As far as reaching out to minority children with programs in gaming and cg work in general I fully support it. I'll go out on a limb and say that I am positive that if there was "non-minority" child that lived in the same area where the program took place that those children would not be turned away.

www.njseeds.org (http://www.njseeds.org)

This is a program that I was a student in and actually involved in as a mentor later on and still visit from time to time. Just and example of something similar, but in a broader sense.

Shaderhacker
08-11-2005, 07:02 PM
You hit the nail on the head, I being a black american have severally studied this and black culture through my personal experience, historical study of the last 50 years, and general observation. You are completely right when you say education is not the primary concern of the majority of black society. Who do you see as the prominent role models on television today of African-American decent. Athletes and Rappers, thats pretty much sums it up. And if you think about it, thats really ridiculous. The only real concern for the majority of African americans are material possessions, trying to emulate the lifestyle of a music video being simply a facade.
The problem that lies with this is education, and black society being urban or southern severely needs reform in education. Now I understand that the majority of any race or ethnic group will reject higher education, only a small percentage of of people will ambitiously rise through the educational ranks. But that percentage is disporortionate amongst blacks americans reletive to the other racial ethnic groups in America. I could historically explain why this is but that is not the point of this thread.

I am also a black american and I agree 100%. I have 7 nieces and nephews the oldest being 18 years old. Half of them have very little education. One of them dropped out of school. Another one got expelled from school for the year causing a 3rd repeat. Almost all of them have either parties, music, or sports on their minds. To me, that's weak! Talking to them does no good as an uncle. They will cling to their 'cliques' who hang out everyday smoking weed and drinking.

Why am I the only one in my family that clung to a different style and part of life? Probably because I was interested enough to 1) not want to be one of the "crew" and 2) while I was good at sports, I didn't think that drugs, dancing, and chasing the streets was very interesting.

It is sad, but most of today's black communities are not interested in becoming well educated. And this is seen through TV. The music videos are destroying our children and aren't teaching them anything.


-M

greynite1
08-11-2005, 07:14 PM
hey shaderhacker

sorry to hear that man. I know thats kinda rough. Alot of the members of my family were like that up until recently getting into one issue after another. I think its a maturity thing and I think that happens in all families. So if you were don't feel too bad. Did you ever get your uncles and aunts comparing you to their children? "*sigh* why can't little bobby be more like you instead of always just runnin the street and spending my money* That sucks. Especially if the person is in the room. That was awkward.

Do you think its videos really or do you think that its the parents (an old question) in my familys case I know my uncles and aunts have in many cases provided very bad role models and then wondered why their kids started screwing up.

JMcWilliams
08-11-2005, 07:32 PM
I am also a black american and I agree 100%. I have 7 nieces and nephews the oldest being 18 years old. Half of them have very little education. One of them dropped out of school. Another one got expelled from school for the year causing a 3rd repeat. Almost all of them have either parties, music, or sports on their minds. To me, that's weak! Talking to them does no good as an uncle. They will cling to their 'cliques' who hang out everyday smoking weed and drinking.

Why am I the only one in my family that clung to a different style and part of life? Probably because I was interested enough to 1) not want to be one of the "crew" and 2) while I was good at sports, I didn't think that drugs, dancing, and chasing the streets was very interesting.

It is sad, but most of today's black communities are not interested in becoming well educated. And this is seen through TV. The music videos are destroying our children and aren't teaching them anything.


-M

Hey, I'm a white english plonker and that attitude can be very regular for white kids too. It's all our problems I think :D
Almost a 'it's cool to be ignorant' attitude.

greynite1
08-11-2005, 07:53 PM
JMC

Agreed I think its just a youth thing really.

Dare I say it is that not why the NERD concept kind of exists basically young people who in many circumstances really are not ignorant about certain things and they kinda get persecuted for it. Maybe I'm nearing a different discussion altogether.

but I agree when you are young in your teens or below it almost seems a disadvantage to be knowledgeable or passionate about anything that isn't considered cool by others.

JMcWilliams
08-11-2005, 08:14 PM
Exactly! :D
I mean, it's considered cool to be obsessed with football, getting dressed up in the kit and painting your face the colour of your team... but it's 'sad' to be a star wars fan and dress up like a stormtrooper.
Go figure. ;)

Shaderhacker
08-11-2005, 08:42 PM
Do you think its videos really or do you think that its the parents (an old question) in my familys case I know my uncles and aunts have in many cases provided very bad role models and then wondered why their kids started screwing up.

It's the parents and the children. The children on my sisters' side tend to be more successful. I believe it's because my sister pushes them. Ultimately though, it's up to the children after a certain point....All I can do is pray for them. I just wish at least one of them was closer to their uncle.. but that takes being able to listen to sound advice..something that a lot of children seem to suffer with..even my own 5-year old daughter.. :(

-M

Shaderhacker
08-11-2005, 08:51 PM
Hey, I'm a white english plonker and that attitude can be very regular for white kids too. It's all our problems I think :D
Almost a 'it's cool to be ignorant' attitude.

Sorry but I disagree. Why? There may be common ground amoungst every race for this, but the parents are a different story. For the average white community with kids that are "out there", if one day they decide to snap out of their childish ways, they (more likely than not) have parents that can/will support them to further their education financially and/or intellectually. Not so in the minority communities where parents struggle to even stay out of jail. My mother, for example, didn't even finish high school. She was divorced and no matter how bad she wanted to, she couldn't pay for my college. This left me to fend for myself. Either get a scholarship or borrow money and work. From 1988 (time I graduated from H.S.) to 1999 (graduated from college), I had a long uphill battle and still owe from all those years dropping out and reenrolling in college..

-M

Shaderhacker
08-11-2005, 08:57 PM
Exactly! :D
I mean, it's considered cool to be obsessed with football, getting dressed up in the kit and painting your face the colour of your team... but it's 'sad' to be a star wars fan and dress up like a stormtrooper.
Go figure. ;)

That is true. I was a prime example of this. Now, how would you like it if you could play sports, even gifted at a certain sport, but was still called a "nerd"? My own father used to call me a nerd all the time because I would rather have a Commodore 64 playing Zork 1 than to have a new stereo with the newest Prince album. This "nerd-calling" gave me a complex all through H.S. Wearing thick glasses because I couldn't see didn't help either.

It wasn't until I was in the military that I realized that I was the one with the extreme advantage... Not trying to put myself on a pedestal, but not only could I play football/basketball very well, but I could also solve an integral equation, or put a motor in a car. But how many people just fall in with the crowd and fail to realize how truly gifted they can be?

-M

JMcWilliams
08-11-2005, 09:02 PM
Sorry but I disagree. Why? There may be common ground amoungst every race for this, but the parents are a different story. For the average white community with kids that are "out there", if one day they decide to snap out of their childish ways, they (more likely than not) have parents that can/will support them to further their education financially and/or intellectually. Not so in the minority communities where parents struggle to even stay out of jail. My mother, for example, didn't even finish high school. She was divorced and no matter how bad she wanted to, she couldn't pay for my college. This left me to fend for myself. Either get a scholarship or borrow money and work. From 1988 (time I graduated from H.S.) to 1999 (graduated from college), I had a long uphill battle and still owe from all those years dropping out and reenrolling in college..

-M

Perhaps, although I see a lot of that in some white families too, Especially in council estates (I lived in a couple as a kid :D).

JMcWilliams
08-11-2005, 09:10 PM
But how many people just fall in with the crowd and fail to realize how truly gifted they can be?
-M
Very true, I think you obviously had the mental strength to continue and do what you loved despite the attitudes. Many are too scared of being outcasts to risk it.

sadghost
08-11-2005, 11:50 PM
Well let me jump in if I can:
first of all I didn't like the fact that Mario Armstrong said that "It's been said that a bunch of nerdy white guys are creating these games" and "The problem with a bunch of white guys creating the games is that the story isn't being created with balance."

That statement to me is all wrong! when I buy a video game I'm not looking for balance,when I play devil may cry on the Playstation2 I wasn't looking for a black or an Asian guy ect..,when I play TENCHU (ninja game) I wasn't looking for a black guy or white, when I play a game like GT SA ..I'm not looking for a white Asian guy or a balanced race of character ect...
GT SA is a game about gang life "from a video game point of view" I don't need to see CJ as a nice clean cut character.. I bought the game because it was a game about bad ass actions that could go wrong and does go wrong on then streets, then put into an unrealistic frame..
So what balance am I looking for? None.. It’s a game! I played lots of games where white people are killers, blowing things up, assassinating people and are Italian gangsters and many more bad and evil characters... I never heard anyone black say hey stop it !

from cnn :"I'd love to hear what other stories exist in the world besides the stereotypical ones. There are good people in the ghetto. There are role models,"

what the hell is that ? it's an exaggerated game about the gangs ... so what the heck are they talking about "There are good people in the ghetto" this game is not a documentary about street gangs This game doesn't have to be true not one once of it !

so let me get this straight so if black people make games let say about Vampires are they going to be fair and balanced to the vampires or to the people that are attacked by Vampires..? It’s just stupid. Period. I whont mind if the game is about Vampires eating people all day ..it a video game [and mind you there are people out there who are bat lovers.... who's going to care about there love for bats, and the stereotypes about BATS and Vampires]

What I think a big part of the problem is that we have alot of work to do on race relations..

I listen to hip hop and rap... and allot of those M.C's and rappers show no balance in selecting what women they call a BITCH OR A HOE.. Except there mothers I'm sure... I don't hear any balance when they say I'm gonna kill this NI**A on 90 plus % of there songs what about blacks who get offended by that word.

Who here believes that they put a gun to 50 cents head to make him make his video game.. I for one think that they put a paycheck in his pocket.

so my point is I heard about this game school for minority kids on NPR over a month ago ..and I whas happy as hell and I agreed with Mario Armstrong... I just don't like his statement about "It's been said that a bunch of nerdy white guys are creating these games"
I feel that it whas an uneducated statement on his part because I always had the bias understanding that the best video games where made by Asian people from china or Japan... not whites!

And I'm really not feeling him when he says "The problem with a bunch of white guys creating the games is that the story isn't being created with balance."
no one on this planet should look for the games them selves for balance.

I bet you that every person who takes GTA for what it is "a game" will say that "GTA IS A KICK ASS GAME" most people won’t play a game and say "WOW... I WONDER IF A WHITE GUY OR ASIAN GUY MADE THIS GAME" game over.

PhantomDesign
08-12-2005, 04:39 PM
Hi Dmonk,

I understand where they’re coming from. As far as whether this program is actually positive or negative, I’m not sure. On the good side, you have good intentions and people mentoring underprivileged children. On the bad side, this program is based on a misunderstanding, probably won’t achieve it’s goal (of countering CJ), and is most likely going to let down the vast majority of those who participate (by creating hopes of jobs they can’t get).

“As far as CG goes if an artist or TD can't cut it they shouldn't get the job.” I agree, but the bar has been raised to such a level that an average-skilled CG artist hoping to break in the industry won’t be able to get over it, much less even touch it. At least that’s what I remember about the job market 6 months to 2 years ago (not sure it’s changed recently). The article makes it seem like it’s an industry you can walk right in if you can do the job, which is not the case.

I really do hope the best for them :) , but I’m the type of person that’s willing to ask the hard questions. :deal:



Phantomdesign,

Your concerns are understandable. I'm not saying that I completely agree with you, but I can understand your perspective.

As far as CG goes if an artist or TD can't cut it they shouldn't get the job. I give the industry the benefit of the doubt that no one is intentionally excluding minorities.

As far as reaching out to minority children with programs in gaming and cg work in general I fully support it. I'll go out on a limb and say that I am positive that if there was "non-minority" child that lived in the same area where the program took place that those children would not be turned away.

www.njseeds.org

This is a program that I was a student in and actually involved in as a mentor later on and still visit from time to time. Just and example of something similar, but in a broader sense.

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