My never ending modelling crises issue

[Kalab]

Me too. I assume it's different in every case, combined with particular knife cuts, smoothing, other techniques, patience and experience. But I await a reply for a direction to go on this topic as well.

[Creature]

You should define your object with more polys. What I mean is, that you should use a six or eight sided cylinder to start modelling such a thing and not simply a cube. This way you will have polies on your loops which define the shape better. This allows you to better modell smaller features because a smaller poly is affected.

Also Inner Extrude tends to give you such roundness artifacts. Try to Loop-Cut so that you get more segments and adjust those. I don't know how to explain it better right now. Maybe have a look at Edge-Loop (sometimes called Poly-Loop) modelling tutorials.

[destro80]

Hi There,

I'm learning ploy modelling too and I hit this problem all the time.

Here's a link to a poly modelling forum (over fifty pages long now). It's for MAX but most of the info works the same for Cinema 4D.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=40373&page=1&pp=15

[Creature]

To illustrate what I meant: With a setup like this you can easily add custom shaped insets of all kinds. You can of course also use splines as a guide where to move your points.

[Xsub]

I see what you mean, but i have no idea to solve it in my situation.

I want my spaceships jets/boosters to stay the same way they are.. but as shown in this example there doesn't seem to be a way out.

as soon as i start adding verts, cutting, edge loops etc - the mesh starts to form into a very hard-edged shape.

I read about 10 pages of that thrad, it was helpfull but a lot of the links and examples are dead. - i did try and go to the later pages ( 50+ ) but they seem to be talking about other things which do not relate to my problem

thanks

[moka.studio]

I see what you mean, but i have no idea to solve it in my situation.

I want my spaceships jets/boosters to stay the same way they are.. but as shown in this example there doesn't seem to be a way out.

as soon as i start adding verts, cutting, edge loops etc - the mesh starts to form into a very hard-edged shape.

I read about 10 pages of that thrad, it was helpfull but a lot of the links and examples are dead. - i did try and go to the later pages ( 50+ ) but they seem to be talking about other things which do not relate to my problem

thanks

What you should do is make a copy of your HN mesh, and use that as a template, so that when you add new geomtry you can still see how the mesh used to 'flow', and you can use the move tool , for ex with soft selection or in normal axis mode, to move the points back. In the end use the brush tool set to smooth to take out any hard adges( do it with the HN turned on, so that the high poly count mesh will be used to determine the amount of smoothing).

edit - I also think you do not ahve enough rings in your mesh ( as posted above). Your low poly cage has a sharp angle, which means that as soon as you start adding detail the shape will change significantly. The low poly should approximate the end shape as much as possible.

[Xsub]

i tried making a copy, but where the edges end it is clearly noticeable.

[moka.studio]

i tried making a copy, but where the edges end it is clearly noticeable.

Well, yes, you use the template to see where the mesh now diverges -

[Xsub]

Here, i've saved my c4d file, Would any of you mind trying it out for me.. just so i can see how its done to then upload/ show screenshot of how its done?

thanks

[vid2k2]

Xsub, did you zip the file and upload for us to see?
It would help if I could use your mesh rather than to
build it over.

[moka.studio]

Here, i've saved my c4d file, Would any of you mind trying it out for me.. just so i can see how its done to then upload/ show screenshot of how its done?

thanks

sure, just post the file -

[Xsub]

sorry i thought i had included it, ill try again.

Ah thats why - it wouldn't accept .c4d, all done now :)

[Erik Heyninck]

Hi, this is a bit theoretical, but if I manage to explain it then you will know what happens, which is the first step to a solution.

A mesh has points that are at fixed locations. Unless you move them of course.
But a Hypernurbs is different. In the word NURBS is hidden the word B-Splines. As you can see in Cinema's manual, these are splines that not go through the points but form a rounded shape somewhere in the neighbourhood of them. The closer these points are to one-another, the closer the spline comes to them.

Hypernurbs works about the same way. A cube with no subdivision becomes a sphere, but a cube with five subdivisions come sloser to a cube than to a sphere. But all corners are rounded.
What hypernurns does is subdivide the surface so that it can create a rounded shape. That does not go through the original points. (unless weighted at 100%)

What happens in your mesh is that by adding geometry, you add points. So points are coming closer to one-another, and this makes the area a bit more squarish.

[Xsub]

Yeah i understand that, but i have no idea how to resolve my issue.
- since i want my mesh exactly the same shape, but including the air intake so that is nicely joins up to it.

i'd even go as far as making it editable under a hypernurb, just to make it perfect. But when i try that, when it ends - i can't make them join up perfectly so it defeats the object.

[tonare]

What you should do is make a copy of your HN mesh, and use that as a template, so that when you add new geomtry you can still see how the mesh used to 'flow', and you can use the move tool , for ex with soft selection or in normal axis mode, to move the points back. In the end use the brush tool set to smooth to take out any hard adges( do it with the HN turned on, so that the high poly count mesh will be used to determine the amount of smoothing).

edit - I also think you do not ahve enough rings in your mesh ( as posted above). Your low poly cage has a sharp angle, which means that as soon as you start adding detail the shape will change significantly. The low poly should approximate the end shape as much as possible.

Thats a killer tip, thank you. That will help me from now on.:)

[vid2k2]

Xsub,

As per the other posts, you need more polys.
Even starting with a cyl / capsule primitive would have given
you a better starting point.

Suggestion: select all polys that include the air scoop
and sub-d them with the HN checked. That rounds out
everything for you. You can even delete the scoop polys
from the selection before you do the sub-d. After this
you can select the polys of the scoop and weight them
to suit.

[Xsub]

Xsub,

As per the other posts, you need more polys.
Even starting with a cyl / capsule primitive would have given
you a better starting point.

Suggestion: select all polys that include the air scoop
and sub-d them with the HN checked. That rounds out
everything for you. You can even delete the scoop polys
from the selection before you do the sub-d. After this
you can select the polys of the scoop and weight them
to suit.

I kind of know what you mean, but im not totally sure, could you edit the file and upload again?.. sorry to be hassle..

thanks for your help though.

[Kalab]

I kind of know what you mean, but im not totally sure, could you edit the file and upload again?.. sorry to be hassle..

thanks for your help though.

Just tried that. Worked great vid2k2.

Xsub, Just select the object, go to poly tool, select all polys, go to FUnctions > Subdivide. Click the HyperNURBS subdive checkbox and click ok. (Leave subdivision at 1, keep max angle at 180).

[Xsub]

ok, so now my polygons are extremely high and i have no idea how i can make it flow - i've tried adjusting the points but it's clearly visible.

[Erik Heyninck]

Imo, you have far too many polys.

[Xsub]

Dude, i know - but what am i suposed to do?... no one is helping me out here, i've done what everyone has said and it looks awful.

I guess i'll have to model it all again, since when it rejoins - the poly count will be different and the "smoothness" i wanted from the very start will no longer be so.

[MJV]

Dude, i know - but what am i suposed to do?... no one is helping me out here, i've done what everyone has said and it looks awful.

I guess i'll have to model it all again, since when it rejoins - the poly count will be different and the "smoothness" i wanted from the very start will no longer be so.


This is how SDS modeling works. Every single cut affects the way the mesh flows. The only way to preserve curves is to isolate them with cuts that don't disrupt the flow, but allow you to make more localized changes. It takes a lot of practice and time to get used to it before you figure out what works and what doesn't. A nurbs modeler like Rhino is probably more straightforward and precise than SDS modeling, which is more suitable for organic and not mathematically precise shapes.

[destro80]

I think you should choose a more simple project. There are lots of tools and concepts to ploy modelling. I'm working my way thru them (at a snails pace). Don't underestimate how complex it is.

There is a DVD showing how to poly model in Cinema 4D, but it looks very basic (just a TV remote). I haven't found anything for Cinema 4D that shows how to poly model at the level you are attempting.

There are people on this forum who are happy to help us learn, but it looks like you are going in the deep end too soon, so there isn't alot they can do.

[destro80]

This is how SDS modeling works. Every single cut affects the way the mesh flows. The only way to preserve curves is to isolate them with cuts that don't disrupt the flow, but allow you to make more localized changes.

That's great MJV...like I've said I'm learning poly modelling now, so these concepts are like gold to me.

Cheers

[vid2k2]

xsub,
You asked a specific question about having the air scoop be a smooth
part of the engine housing. That question was answered. It's another
"seperate question" you raise on joining parts together. The "kink" in the
model is because you have more polys in the engine part of the model
meeting the ship part. Where the parts join need to have the same poly/point
count to make a smooth transition. This will result in triangles for the next
poly loop back but will give you a smooth joint.

Seeing the model you're doing in total shows me that some preplanning would
have resulted in a different process, imo, as extruding from a cube and then
putting that into a HN cage.

It would have been helpful to see the whole ship prior:)

[Erik Heyninck]

what I did is start with a cilinder. I set length and circular subdivision so that I got approximately the rectangle/poly I wanted to be able to extrude. Then I placed it in a HN and started adapting the shape.

You may have to restart your mesh , but everyone has to from time to time. The more you model, the less this happens.

It's always best to come as close as possible to the raw basic shape for the result of your hypernurbs.

The problem was that I was convinced, seeing your model, you were more experienced. Hence my minimal replies. What I do like about your approach is that you know what you want and get frusterated when you don't. That's the best attitude to learn.

[Xsub]

Thanks.

From my past of 3d modelling I used to just be so weak, I’d try my best to model what I wanted but ultimately I’d always make so many sacrifices on what I wanted really to achieve it would never look the way i wanted. But then I started to learn new things and I wouldn’t have to leave out so many things and would come up with something much closer.

The stage I’m at now is having a perfect mesh. I want to learn the ways of making such one without going in a different direction...

Though it seems I’ve come to a dead stop and I’ll have to model it all again to achieve what I wanted in the first place, as there's no easy way out of this it seems.

[Erik Heyninck]

Perhaps not, perhaps there is. But perhaps (again!) the work and time put in tweaking would be taking more energy.

I also noticed in your mesh that you seem to have connected the two engines as the mesh/polys is different from the front body. You are using n-gons on that part. I guess it would be better, or more elegant if you prefer, to go on subdividing with the knife and get a continuous topology.

[Erik Heyninck]

I would do it as follows (see images as I may forget to menion a step ok?)

-create a cilinder and set it to a 10-side. No caps.
-create a cube and give it the same height as your 10 angle and see that its depth covers the same distance as a set of polys on that 10 side. (planning makes life easier).
-move the cube in place to become the main body.
-now hide that cube and delete all (in my case as I cover 4 polys) sixteen points of the 10-side that will be hidden inside your final mesh. delete also those two tris in the corners. Polys inside you mesh deform your hypernurbs.
-select and delete the faces of the cube that will be inside the mesh(left and right)
-copy the 10-side. Rename the first for example left and the second right. Move your copy to the other side (length of the cube) and rotate p 180°
-select (with shift) all three objects and function>connect, then function optimise.
-now delete all four faces of the rectangle that are still there and in points mode, bridge to get polygons.
-select on both 10-sides the exact poly that you wish to add your extra thingie to and extrude (D, and drag).
-go to edge mode and select (see image) the edges around the base of your thingies.
-create a hypernurbs and drag your mesh on it.
-on the hypernurbs tab of the liveselect tool dialog, see that weighting is set to 100% and click apply.

That's the basic shape.
There may be other methods,but his gives a quick basic shape.

[Erik Heyninck]

and here is the mesh for study.

have a good and very creative weekend!

[Kalab]

Very cool Erik. You just probably helped a hundred people who read these boards and don't post. You helped me.:thumbsup:

[Xsub]

Glad this post is helping other people too.

though i'll answer a few replies, firstly.

(sadly, i was about to post image of ship, though c4c crashed and my progress on it - i lost ) but not to fear, ill try it again.

Anyway - as i was about to say. I'm not using n-gons as the other topic i started i found out it was the Hypernurb method of ngon which caused serious errors in my air intake.

Erik Heyninck - thanks a lot for your help

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