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monovich
08-03-2005, 09:11 PM
Posted this on the newtek forums, but I'll post it here too just in case people are interested:

----

I just went down to Siggraph today to check out the showroom floor. I'm only 15 minutes away, so it was a quick drive. I used the free Newtek exhibits only pass to get in, and it was very convenient.

I found the newtek booth right away and was pretty impressed by it's scale, it's centerally located and clustered to the other big vendors (Apple, Maya, 3d Studio Max, Zbrush, Nvidia, and all the rest). It seems the more bit players were around the edges of the convention hall. I don't know what you guys think of the LW9 website, but I'm not a huge fan (too overdone). The newtek booth used the same graphics. All the staff were wearing matching fire shirts, too. One one side of the exhibit, they had a large demo screen where they did the LW demos, on the other side they had about 5 work stations running LW. The workstations were running custom builds of 8.5, and I think they were for the public to use, but guys from DAVE School were "hogging" all the computers working on who-knows-what. I was disappointed not to be able to get in and try 8.5 out myself, but they didn't look like they wanted to be bothered. Not good PR in my opinion. I don't understand why people need to go to the Siggraph show floor to model spaceship engines and such.

Anyway, on the other side they were giving LW9 demos on the big screen every 30 minutes or so, so I caught two demos while I was there. The demos were pretty basic, but effective. There was a consistent crowd filling most of the seats and gathered around the periphery, which I think was a good sign. the features they were showing looked very cool.
The micro-displacement looked VERY cool, but I'm worried it won't work with Fprime because you couldn't see the effects of it until you hit F9. Hmm...
The Nodal stuff looked very cool, but it was a very basic demo of putting a procedural texture onto the logo, so it didn't exactly drop any jaws.
The real time hardware shading was very nice. thumbs up on that! Now you won't get those nasty polygon jaggies on quads and tris when using soft edges on spotlights and stuff. it all previews correctly. finally! The real time texturing was quite nice also, and mathed up to the real render quite well in the example.
I didn't get to see much of the modeling in layout, that's the one thing I kept missing. bummer.
Actually, I didn't get to see any of the modeler enhancements like n-gons and edges and such.
I did see that you can now modify your weight maps in layout, which will be very useful for you character animators I imagine.
They also demoed VUE working with LW. They said that you will be able to render VUE content from LW natively by the end of the year. Let's hope so! I think it can already be done in Max or Maya or something
I may have seen some other stuff, but I forget.

At the booths for the other 3d packages, the crowds seemed bigger most of the time, but that didn't surprise me, because packages like maya have a larger user base.

The Newtek demo reel played on the screen at the booth between shows, and the montage was very impressive. they had a lot of nice shots on there ranging from the Citroen commercial, to Sin City, to Battlestar Gallactica, to the Scion ads (very cool) and other things. I think it represented LW's abilites in a way that the sales people wouldn't be able to do on their own.

all in all things were cool. There was tons of new tech shown at the other booths, and some of it was pretty exciting and jaw dropping (realtime dynamics, realtime mocap, realtime HDRI, HDRI monitors, etc).

That's about it, I came back ready to put the tools I already have at my disposal to work, because being around that much cool stuff makes you want to do cool stuff.

-Steve

Darth Mole
08-03-2005, 09:27 PM
Thanks for that! Still waiting for some demo vids to go up on NT's site...

DigiLusionist
08-03-2005, 09:59 PM
Did you ask to use any of the workstations?

dines
08-03-2005, 10:21 PM
hey thanks cool impression... yes the red-fire website is a little bit offensive... it is much better than the gray one... but I loved the blue style they had before =)...
Anway... maybe the changes should show the new power, the new features, the new version. I hope not only the marketing is full of power ... =)... did you see any guest stars or some others showing things at the booth... or is this starting the next day's (btw who is coming...)?

monovich
08-03-2005, 10:43 PM
Did you ask to use any of the workstations?

no. I tapped a guy on the shoulder to see what version they were running (it just had the build number in the header) and he told me, but nobody looked like they wanted to be disturbed. Maybe I'm too shy.

mlmiller1983
08-03-2005, 11:19 PM
Though I wasn't there from what I read NT is serious about getting back on top and I hope LW 9 and beyond will reflect that.

Sequent
08-03-2005, 11:19 PM
Definitely too shy, you should have muscled your way in!!!

But I would have done the same thing you did.

no. I tapped a guy on the shoulder to see what version they were running (it just had the build number in the header) and he told me, but nobody looked like they wanted to be disturbed. Maybe I'm too shy.

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 07:30 AM
1 You should have just gotten really really loud and acted a little mad by twitchin and randomly shouting the odd word (Would have got you a workstation i reckon)

2 You could have kidnaped Will Vaughan until one of his Dave school muppets let you have a workstation

3 My personal approach would be to stand behind one of said muppets and laughed and cracked jokes about what that muppet was doing (Embaressment always wins)

Horrible b*s*rd aint i ;)


Anyway back to reality and Newtek Sig 05

Newtek are so thick it is unbelievable, The only people really around the globe who are talking about LW enthusiastically actually attended the show, The line "Our goal is to make the SIG05 coverage of ongoing (Doesn't ongoing normally mean while it happens, Well FYI Newtek im pretty sure the show ends today and no vids) events easily accessible to the LightWave community worldwide" Is a crock of b*llshit taken staright from there so called sig 05 site, They have no idea how to sell a product even if that product looks like it could be a winner, I'm sorry to say this but it comes across like Newtek only gives a sh*t about north american customers, They have put no information up on the web for the world at large except for a few lines of details on probably the cr*piest ever commercial site i have ever scene (Please red red, What kind of a t*t thinks red websites look professional, I showed the new site to my partner who also uses LW, His words where "Christ that tw*t needs to get a life" He thought it was some fanboy piece of sh*t site)
I know i'm probably going to get flamed for this even though i love LW and wont use anything else anyway.
I am just very disappointed in the constant crock of sh*t that Newtek feed us, Why get everybody all hyped about a new release and the future release and then only show it to the elite few who can attend the event.
I'm told now also that non of the videos that will be released(If they ever do) will have any references to 9 at all even though the entire event for Newtek was showing off 9 ?
I guess 9 is just for Dave School (Actually very funny if you come from the UK, Dave has a different meaning over here)
I'm ranting now so i'll leave it but needless to say my opinion of Newtek is this
The best 3D software in the world.
The dumbest marketing in the world.

Edited* Because of people who are like little children reading a dictionary and cant see the meanings for the slang words, Sorry about that but in the UK that is how we speak, I didnt realise you had to Censor yourself at CGTalk sorry :(

Darth Mole
08-04-2005, 07:34 AM
I see CGT's sweary filter has been turned off...

(I'm from the UK - Dave is just a bloke's name. What else does it mean?)

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 07:40 AM
Eeeeeeeeeeer
How old are you that you dont know Dave as a slang term ?
PS it means D*ckhead - Edited in case you mind

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 07:42 AM
Get it get it ?
Dave school
Dickhead School

Oh i ain't saying that at all either i'm just pointing that Dave in the UK is a slang term for Dickhead (Even though i guess some people in the UK dont know that - Yeah right)

alvin-cgi
08-04-2005, 08:05 AM
yes! LW9 Rock!!!:bounce: :buttrock:

but LW web site... hmm... not quite sure about red... (hate it!!!):eek:
nt, go and see maya, pmg, modo and xsi web site, see how professional they are.:deal:

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 08:18 AM
Dont wanna give off the wrong vibe here

Yes LW9 features look unbelievably cool and i cant wait

For my thoughts on there website and entire image infact see above.

dines
08-04-2005, 08:36 AM
It would be great if this thread could be used to have some other sigg05 impression...
that we have some other points of views... beside that it is realy funny to learn a bit UK slang...

samartin
08-04-2005, 09:08 AM
Eeeeeeeeeeer
How old are you that you dont know Dave as a slang term ?
PS it means D*ckhead - Edited in case you mind

Had to reply to this slightly OT comment, I've never heard of that term either and I'm 32. Maybe it's a Northern/Southern thing, I'm originally from up North'ish.

Anyway LW presence, LW does suck on the marketing front from my POV, well in the UK anyway. Unfortunately these days marketing does speak volumes as all the major players are well aware.

And yet another anyway as I must crack on, I am looking forward to seeing what LW9 has to offer, sounds like a catch up (soon to be left behind me thinks) to me but it's stuff that is needed to help our productivity it seems and I like sticking with LW but the ahemmm *odo does seem pretty damn impressive.

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 09:16 AM
Strange i'm originally from Brum and we said it there too ?
I'm 32 aswell by the way ;)

colkai
08-04-2005, 11:42 AM
Had to reply to this slightly OT comment, I've never heard of that term either and I'm 32. Maybe it's a Northern/Southern thing, I'm originally from up North'ish.
Must be - I'm from NW UK and I've never heard of that.
Of course, I never heard of "Bostin'" either until I started work at the wildlife centre in Staffordshire - it apparently means 'really good'. Though we are getting them around to using good ole Northern slang. :p

As for Siggraph, barring a few pictures on SQ, there's nothing forthcoming on LW that I can see. NewtekTV is out for me because of lack of bandwidth. Having said that - SQ is down for maintenance again and I need my dose of Siggy goodies.. no fair! ;)

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 12:03 PM
Colkai
Yeah Lightwave is a Bostin bit a kit ;)

Newtek have stuck some pics of the party up but thats it :(

Darth Mole
08-04-2005, 12:11 PM
I'm from the Black Country, I'm 40-er, something, and I've NEVER heard that phrase. So doh yow be s'saft.

duke
08-04-2005, 12:15 PM
The Nodal stuff looked very cool, but it was a very basic demo of putting a procedural texture onto the logo, so it didn't exactly drop any jaws.

-Steve

How did it seem to work? Via a shader interface or as a procedural texture kinda thing? Was it just for making procedural textures like VisualTexture or more of a full shader tree?

Nu Visual Science
08-04-2005, 12:52 PM
I'm from the Black Country, I'm 40-er, something, and I've NEVER heard that phrase. So doh yow be s'saft.

I think it originates from Superdave, That American nutta.

Sequent
08-04-2005, 03:19 PM
Maybe it was because someone in marketing had read somewhere in Mktg 101 that things should be red in order to convey action and excitement and that blue was cold and passive... or something like that, lol.

It should have been a combination of reds and yellows... like a hot dog stand.

:)

monovich
08-04-2005, 04:15 PM
How did it seem to work? Via a shader interface or as a procedural texture kinda thing? Was it just for making procedural textures like VisualTexture or more of a full shader tree?

I haven't ever really used any other nodal systems, so it's hard to say exactly how it worked compared to them. To use it you added the plugin under the surfaces shader panel. Then it opened up a big "canvas" panel where you added your nodes. He added two procedural nodes and made one light pink and one dark pink and I think pointed those at the color channel of another node and it made a pinkish fractal noise thing. He did it pretty quick, so I didn't follow it that well, but it was very intruiging. For me it would be a totally new way to work, that's for sure. I'm looking forward to trying it.

richcz3
08-04-2005, 05:24 PM
Nu - That was a pretty good rant there. The Dave'isms aside, the lack of video coverage is just plain bad. It's a two fold problem being that the Tricaster video mentions NewTek uses it at all events. Instead they ran the same looped video over and over. Bad for Tricaster and LW.

Being that allot of people are impressed with LW9's possibilities, this is the worst marketing anyone could have devised for all the reasons you noted. :sad:

ThomasHelzle
08-05-2005, 11:06 AM
That website design must have been done by the same guy who designed the LW 8 interface - or his little brother. ("Mammi, see, that loooks sooooo cooool" :arteest: :rolleyes: ) .... and all the birds sing: "cheap cheap cheap cheap...." ;)

Are people with a tiny bit of taste for graphics so hard to find?
Or did they all run away after the (only ever) really good looking package design for LW 7?

Is that the deeper meaning of "it's not the tools, it's the artist?"

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Cheers,

duke
08-05-2005, 11:33 AM
That website design must have been done by the same guy who designed the LW 8 interface - or his little brother. ("Mammi, see, that loooks sooooo cooool" :arteest: :rolleyes: ) .... and all the birds sing: "cheap cheap cheap cheap...." ;)

Are people with a tiny bit of taste for graphics so hard to find?
Or did they all run away after the (only ever) really good looking package design for LW 7?

Is that the deeper meaning of "it's not the tools, it's the artist?"

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Cheers,

It comes with optional themes such as "Lens Flare Deluxe", "Awesome Asteroids", "Exciting Enema", and of course the default "HELLDEMON ROCK N ROLL".

jacobo3d
08-05-2005, 11:37 AM
Look for Shader Tree, at the bottom. You'll see how it works.

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_lwp.html

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/image/shadertree/shadertree1.jpg


Yes... it's a free plugin (good plugin, by the way)... anyway... Newtek and their "new features"

regards

ThomasHelzle
08-05-2005, 12:02 PM
It comes with optional themes such as "Lens Flare Deluxe", "Awesome Asteroids", "Exciting Enema", and of course the default "HELLDEMON ROCK N ROLL".>LOL< :bounce: I want them all!
XSI already has an inbuilt interface to a game engine in version 5, maybe Lightwave 9 could BE a game? "Hunt for the dead polygon" or "Boom 4" or "Luxhunter - the revenge?" :)

Excerpt from the press text: "After long and devastating years of drought, most people have left the wasteland of Tewnek. You are the only hope for the waves of light to return. Play this amazing adventure and give humanity new hope!" :thumbsup:

Tip for the coders: Be sure to put cool explosion effects when the app goes booom :p

Another Tip: everytime the user works with a former free plugin in LW 8 or 9, a hand comes out of the monitor, tipping at your sleeve, while from the speakers a dark voice talks about how easily people can be fooled. But make it an option, otherwise the user will no longer be able to work/play with all those hands...

Have a nice day everybody!

Dragon_Lee
08-05-2005, 12:10 PM
Anyway LW presence, LW does suck on the marketing front from my POV, well in the UK anyway. Unfortunately these days marketing does speak volumes as all the major players are well aware.

And yet another anyway as I must crack on, I am looking forward to seeing what LW9 has to offer, sounds like a catch up (soon to be left behind me thinks) to me but it's stuff that is needed to help our productivity it seems and I like sticking with LW but the ahemmm *odo does seem pretty damn impressive.

IMO Newtek-Europe has a bad record marketing wise, in the past I've seen and heard the strangest things which plain don't make any sense marketing/customer wise..

I still wish Newtek Europe would do a LOT more marketing in europe than it is doing now, their "advertorials" in 3D World magazine (which are copies of info found on the web) plain isn't enough in my opinion... But seeing how Newtek went through some changes over the past few years, I am hoping things improve over time for us EU folks...

As for the new webpage, definitely looks more fanboyish than a professional webpage promoting a professional product... even when keeping the "fire" theme, a lot more could have been done with the graphics/colors, personally I would've toned them down, combine the cool blue faded grey look with the fire/red scheme...

Modo/Luxology, I still remember their very dubious split from Newtek, call me grumpy but I do not forgive that easily... Modo looks great, had it under my hands now and then, but something still keeps me wanting to support Newtek more than Luxology...

The new LW9 will definitely become a turning point though, if it is not handled well, then I"ll say I understood the "fanboy" approach to the website, and can see a shift to other packages...
But for now LW9 looks very nice on paper, eager to get my hands on it...

Here's hoping the marketing will explode with the dawn of the new version!

Nemoid
08-05-2005, 02:10 PM
well i agree that Nt marketing could improve greatly.
some companies have things to learn in marketing (not only Newtek BTW), but i think things are improving from the past. I too consider the flame design ,a not so elegant one.... well its actually a matter of choices, since in the past I myself would have said the opposite, being mostly a thrash metal fanboy wearing those sometimes ridiculous t shirts : Pantera, Sepultura, Slayer.. LOL but design its not always what's important.

The most important thing is userbase support, and mantained.promises
I know for sure that Nt team worked and works very, very hard to give us a great product with Lw, and the other Newtek products, but if i was them i'd hire a good marketing expert to learn how to deal with all things related .

some good suggestions could be these :

1) build up a very homogeneous website. i personally like very much the new blue Nt design so, why not to exploit that one, fill in it some fire elements and look, but into an elegant way, design wise.

elegance is the key.


2) build up a central page for all plugins for Lw., tutorials faq and so on. www.flay.com (http://www.flay.com) and the lw tutorial page on the web are a great resource on that, but some collaboration with Nt and Flay would really be awesome. a company can't always depend on the community. and for the new users would be really great to find all tuts and plugins in the same -organized place IMHO. some cool tuts are there btw, because Proton the great made em, found interesting things to put online on nt, and more.. but the thing shouild be organized better : now Wiliam works at dave school too (he deserves this because he rocks BTW )

3) in occasions like Siggraph, a good advice could be this. if u have the time,make some QT vids to show features, and put em online the same day of the show. its an hard job sometimes,users are impatient but the vids could serve well both on the web, and for the show in some occasion.
Then if u showed other cool things at the show, the recorded videos could be put online afterwards.
If you look at softimage website there are videos on 5.0 features yet, for example.
this way you will get no huge rants about videos not being online, and this means satisfied clients.

4) Hire or give the role to a person to be a frontman for you : the person to address all questions and knowing very well all features of the app and giving answers on the forum, replying to feature reqruests and so on (well maybe one person isn't enough ?)
This is helpful in many situations,allow programmers not to be mostly considered no listerers of the userbase _ wich is plain untrue btw, but no replies gives that feeling. also building a Faq area would be greatly appreciated.

5) Give good estimates on releasing dates. Users can perfectly understand every kinda problem in Nt roadmap, but there's nothing worst than saying a thing and not be able to make it.
Its a crap world i know.however in this case, i'd be less optimistic and would add some more time to my estimates, and maybe post some news on how things are going with development from time to time. this is to me good marketing because reassures clients and gives them feedback. this crap marketing happened with 8.0, i don't think will happen with 9.0, but the advice is : be very smart on this subject.


6) Always make hard betatesting of your app. it seems to me, that betatesting possibilities for users are not so huge. i am founder of an italian forum, and i personally know users which requested betatesting, and had great doubts on if they obtained itt or not, because of no replies, they also happened to miss one of the 2 offers because of the very limited time you gave em.
BTW an user should have some good credit to be qualified, but pls don't do things like you have a week , or 3 days to place your request ! how many users would miss that possibility. give em some more time and a good feedback to place their request.

I don't want to start a polemic, but since betatesting is very important for an app, helping you finding problems and bugs, and min some case maybe asking for features and giving you some good ideas, as an user i'd want to be sure it's handled in the best of ways.


7) Finally : we have a good inline manual. a 9.0 documentation is coming soon too. since it is in html i'd make a project of expandable inline manual, in the sense you add sections to enhance it from time to time, and so explaining better parts of the program that could be not so well documented and u could also add to it a tutorial section too which would be a cool thing . as an example, once a month an user could download a new manual patch to add to it inline, and so expand manual and his knowledge, keeping things organized as well.

ok these are my ideas. i also know from being A Spinquad mod, some of them are on the works too.. but i can't say nothing related to this LOL . as you can see its all in organization and going towards the user. i hope these ideas make some sense to u guys as the make sense to me. :)

KEEP UP WITH YOUR WONDERFUL WORK :buttrock: and live in peace.

whereisanykey
08-05-2005, 02:32 PM
One of the most interesting features of 9 is the camera additions. For one, being able to render different views at the same time. One feature I can't see why it was done is the camera rotation while rendering per line. I don't see the use for it, but maybe that's the start of something else in development, or maybe the multiple rendering just created this feature and NT thought it was cool result.
I'm not sure about the programming part but since v8 has the renderer is an external dll I would think external app's could use dll calls. I haven't looked into what calls are available in that dll though.

imashination
08-05-2005, 02:48 PM
I still wish Newtek Europe would do a LOT more marketing in europe than it is doing now, their "advertorials" in 3D World magazine

This is my main reason for replying in this thread. I bought that magazine for that interview, I genuinely wanted to read it. I haven't bought 3d world in a while because it isnt really floating my boat anymore. I was slightly more than peeved off when I got it home and started reading it, the first half of the article was just "Why do you use lightwave?", "why is newtek so awesome?", "tell me more about how brilliant lightwave is". My immediate reaction was that it read just like one of Ben's adverts disguised as an interview which used to get posted up on the front page here. I check the author, ah, It's Ben ;-) Then I notice in the corner of the page "This is a paid-for advertorial". If I could have taken the magazine back for a refund then I would have, I don't think I would have had much luck though.

Anyway, yes, I do agree that NT's budget for the UK seems to be about nil. I remember a few years back, I think it was at the apple expo in London (could have been one of the other shows, computer arts live or something) I was shocked when I saw the lightwave stand. It was an empty white 2x6m plot, with "LIGHTWAVE" printed onto A4 sheets of paper stuck to the back wall with some sticky tape and some guy sat on a stool with a laptop. Does anyone else remember that one?

As for the new webpage, definitely looks more fanboyish than a professional webpage promoting a professional product...

Hang on, GCTalk changes to a red -> black gradient down the screen and a week later LW changes to a black -> red gradient down the screen. Its like an evil twin from the mirror world :)

Modo/Luxology, I still remember their very dubious split from Newtek, call me grumpy but I do not forgive that easily... Modo looks great, had it under my hands now and then, but something still keeps me wanting to support Newtek more than Luxology...

How can you dislike a company because half of them left to form a new company? Whether they were pushed out or whether they decided to leave NT without warning has never been revealed and likely never will. If 100 microsoft employees left to make a new independent OS, would you not like them for being disloyal?

ps. Oh and Im from London/Brighton and I've never heard 'Dave'. Dave is a non-existing character from Only Fools and Horses and The League of Gentlemen. Even the urban dictionary which lists everything has never heard of dave

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dave

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 03:10 PM
I cant believe you never used Dave, You'll be telling me next you never heard of Kev either ?
Ahem the urban english dictionary lists everything does it Ahem

imashination
08-05-2005, 03:23 PM
I cant believe you never used Dave, You'll be telling me next you never heard of Kev either ?
Ahem the urban english dictionary lists everything does it Ahem

Nope. You're just making this stuff up aren't you? Can you explain either? My best guess is that Kev is referring to the useless teenager from the old Harry Enfield comedy show, but Im at a loss for a meaning of Dave.

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 03:58 PM
No i'm not making this stuff up, Just because some CGI heads haven't heard a common term means i'm lying does it ?

monovich
08-05-2005, 04:06 PM
Look for Shader Tree, at the bottom. You'll see how it works.

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_lwp.html

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/image/shadertree/shadertree1.jpg


Yes... it's a free plugin (good plugin, by the way)... anyway... Newtek and their "new features"

regards

the shader tree they used isn't the same as this one. it's similar, but different.

Phyrea
08-05-2005, 04:18 PM
Look for Shader Tree, at the bottom. You'll see how it works.

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_lwp.html


Yes... it's a free plugin (good plugin, by the way)... anyway... Newtek and their "new features"

regards

As Monovich said, the one in LW 9 is different. It is based on Nodal, which was still in development and testing a few months ago. There were some feature "teasers" posted on NewTek's forums a while back (by Tess I believe). The implementation (Nodal) appears to be exceptionally powerful and vast. I wouldn't discard it without first seeing it in use. :wise:

MooseDog
08-05-2005, 04:34 PM
It is based on Nodal, which was still in development and testing a few months ago. There were some feature "teasers" posted on NewTek's forums a while back (by Tess I believe). The implementation (Nodal) appears to be exceptionally powerful and vast. I wouldn't discard it without first seeing it in use. :wise:

i sure hope that's the case, but i'm a bit confused by nt and the features lists. they describe their lw9 shader as a procedural shader, which to me, does not include the use of images or bitmaps. as well, the chatter on spinquad was that nodal the plug-in had been offered to nt, but was declined. i may be mis-understanding everything tho:D

any insights out there?

Phyrea
08-05-2005, 09:20 PM
From what I understand, it supports any image maps LW can load. I also remember reading something about NewTek not going for it (back in March), but apparently that has changed. :D

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 11:06 PM
Well the current vibe from the show from Larry and Wes is that they haven't just bought it but they are intergrating it directly into the core so it wont even need to be run as a shader :thumbsup:

Check SQ for details.

LW9 is gonna kick ass if this is true.

Qexit
08-05-2005, 11:57 PM
No i'm not making this stuff up, Just because some CGI heads haven't heard a common term means i'm lying does it ?I've never heard 'Dave' used as anything other than someone's name. Certainly not around this neck of the woods in the last 40 odd years. It may be a common term in your part of the country...just not nationwide :shrug: Also, 'Kev' is a term I never hear...except very occasionally from people who don't know me very well :twisted:

Back to LW, Nodal looks a lot like Visual Textures from Nodal Ideas:

http://www.nodalideas.com/visualtexture/index.html

which I already have so I don't see this as a huge improvement over my existing toolkit. Fortunately, that is only a small feature of the LW9.0 upgrade :thumbsup:

RPG2006
08-06-2005, 12:22 AM
Kev goes back to the 80's, escorts with go faster stripes, mullets, and CFM boots. Kev was good friends with sharon and bev apparently.

As for Dave never heard of it. Closest I can think of is Richard.

RPG

Phyrea
08-06-2005, 02:50 AM
Well the current vibe from the show from Larry and Wes is that they haven't just bought it but they are intergrating it directly into the core so it wont even need to be run as a shader :thumbsup:

I'm REALLY hoping that's true.

MooseDog
08-06-2005, 06:09 AM
that would be ssssooo! kick a@@ !!

jacobo3d
08-06-2005, 07:28 AM
When I read about the nodal shading system in the new specs, I just though they were developing their own system (especially because they said it would be 'integrated'). After see those pics somebody posted in another forum, I just though about TB's Shader Tree (because it looks almost the same, at least in those pictures). Then, I thought "ok, another free plugin included as default in the pack, and sold it as a "new" feature". After that, I had the hope they just took that plugin and they really put it into the core, really integrated. Well... that's not a bad option. TB's Shader Tree is a great plugin. The bad thing is it's a plugin (I'm not saying "plugin=bad thing", it's just all of us know what happen with plugins and comunication in LW... a plugin is not a full integrated tool). Well, if it's not a plugin anymore, that's cool.
But then I read one of your comments, by somebody who was there and saw how it works (this is a piece of the whole comment):

... To use it you added the plugin under the surfaces shader panel. Then it opened up a big "canvas" panel where you added your nodes...

What? A shader plugin? Well... Exactly like TB's Shader Tree. Where is the new thing?

So... I don't know what to think. I hope I'm wrong. I hope they are just showing that because it's not finished (integrated), or whatever.
It's not a matter of "it's a plugin! what a disaster!!" It's not so important... It's a matter of NT politics, NT philosophy and LW future (well, that's not so important either... but this is not a forum about the existence meaning :)).
As many of you guys, I like LW, and that's why I use it. But guys... you only have to take a look around and see what is happening.

Regards,

Karmacop
08-06-2005, 07:54 AM
What? A shader plugin? Well... Exactly like TB's Shader Tree. Where is the new thing?


Firstly, nodal is much more complex (as far as it's design goes) that TB's shader tree and allows you to do much more. Also, from what I can tell from the LW videos from Sig, they have bought the rights to these plugins, and wll integrate them into the core by the time LW9 is released. So right now it is a plugin, but maybe by the time LW9 comes out you'll have [T]exture, [E]nvelope and [N]ode buttons next to everything. I'm not sure how they'll make it more of a core feature, but I'm sure they will just as they are doing with the new camera stuff.

Nu Visual Science
08-06-2005, 11:44 AM
Its easy to intergrate it as a core feature, Just think surface editor classic and surface editor nodal, This way for people like me who really want this feature we can delete the classic button from layout and everytime we open a surface editor it is nodal, Everything that was available in the classic surface editor is available in Nodal already and much more.

I'm really stoked about 9 now i know these are being written into the core system, I think though the fact that they are being written into the core points to good things with the SDK for 9, I dont think picking up all the TLU plugs and Relativity and Nodal and then stating that they will be written into the core by a Nov release is something that could be done unless the app is modular (It is) and the SDK has been opened right up (Who knows) , This would allow them to not rewrite the core itself but to rewrite the plugin with the new SDK to plug directly into the core, A lot less work as a whole.

Hopefully this is the case and if so would lead to soom very exciting times, Imagine the little faces of all those coders who have asked for an open SDK for all these years, It would probably also lead to a host of broken plugins but that wouldn't matter, There would be so many coders chomping at the bit to get inside LW there would be a flood of plugs.

red_oddity
08-06-2005, 12:31 PM
i sure hope that's the case, but i'm a bit confused by nt and the features lists. they describe their lw9 shader as a procedural shader, which to me, does not include the use of images or bitmaps. as well, the chatter on spinquad was that nodal the plug-in had been offered to nt, but was declined. i may be mis-understanding everything tho:D

any insights out there?

I think you're confusing 2 things here

1] a Nodal shader is a procedural shader(network) as in, each node is a procedure that can be called at all times at any point within an execution/group/shadernetwork, much like procedural programming

2] a texture can be procedural as in, it is a mathmatically generated texture, for example a Perlin noise

MooseDog
08-06-2005, 03:25 PM
same word, two different concepts/applications. now i understand, thx a ton!!!:thumbsup:

doc sampson
08-06-2005, 03:49 PM
i sure hope that's the case, but i'm a bit confused by nt and the features lists. they describe their lw9 shader as a procedural shader, which to me, does not include the use of images or bitmaps. as well, the chatter on spinquad was that nodal the plug-in had been offered to nt, but was declined. i may be mis-understanding everything tho:D

any insights out there?

I asked the same question at the show. I was told that
Nodal may have been declined at the time because Newtek was still looking at several different node based solutions. Theres one from the IFW texture people, Sabre, TBs Shader Tree, Nodal and maybe one or two more. In the end Nodal apparently was chosen because it was the most powerful and encompassing one. Nodal is a HUGE part of LW9 and I was told that it will be integrated by the time LW9 comes out. I saw it function already as a plugin and right now could be used as is in production work. Having it integrated will be so much the better then. :)
One thing that impressed me was seeing it support just about every aspect of LW including displacements, morphs, HVs etc. It was able to do things not currently possible in LW (BTW it does load images and allows them to be processed). Being able to see displacements affected by gradients such as incident angle was pretty cool. Being able to animate UVs and have it affect displacements - also cool. Seeing procedurals applied and UVs and visible in opengl in realtime - also cool. Seeing it effect morph the same way was impressive. Apparently Nodal to some degree is already shows up in FPrime too. Nodal - Good! :)

MooseDog
08-06-2005, 05:12 PM
Thx for that doc!

The more I read and digest about this 9 release, the more mind-blowing it becomes. Every new discussion about it opens up so many possibilities. Exciting times indeed :), though the cynic in me always cautions I'll believe when I see it:wise:.

MadMax
08-06-2005, 06:13 PM
For those who choose to whine about everything, I think Toys 'r Us stills sells Etch-A-Sketch, maybe they will offer a competitive upgrade?

richcz3
08-06-2005, 07:16 PM
AMDMax, You're a L'Waver?

Check out this feature LW9 - Advanced Pixel Subdivision
See LINK (http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7607&page=1&pp=15)

Devs/Testers posting some cool info.

MadMax
08-06-2005, 07:29 PM
AMDMax, You're a L'Waver?


Absolutely. Have been since some of you were still in diapers. 4 licenses of it if you count the Toaster.

MooseDog
08-07-2005, 04:34 AM
For those who choose to whine about everything, I think Toys 'r Us stills sells Etch-A-Sketch, maybe they will offer a competitive upgrade?

You lost me there Max, sorry. Referencing what?

MadMax
08-07-2005, 04:54 AM
You lost me there Max, sorry. Referencing what?

referencing the first 3 pages of whining.

I figure if LW is so bad, maybe they can buy an Etch-A-Sketch instead?

jacobo3d
08-07-2005, 06:28 AM
referencing the first 3 pages of whining.

I figure if LW is so bad, maybe they can buy an Etch-A-Sketch instead?


I did... It's cool. Maybe you should buy one too. It stimulates the understanding ability.


regards,

Freak
08-07-2005, 08:01 AM
I did... It's cool. Maybe you should buy one too. It stimulates the understanding ability.

regards,

They do, and are even as cool as a rubiks cube!!! I want one!
Are you sure Toys'r'us still stock them? My parents deprived me of an Etch-A-Sketch
as a child, hence the reason for all the childhood developmental problems,
and the manchild syndrome of my adult life. All could of been avoided,
if they just gave me that EtchASketch ,for christmas, I wouldn't of had to
lock them up in the basement and do very bad things to em.... Whoops Public forum.....

Okay i mean, if you read the release page, the only SDK enhancement is "Nodal Integration"
This means, that it will be able to be used by other plugins and tools, and is integrated.
into the LW core. :)

jacobo3d
08-07-2005, 08:30 AM
They do, and are even as cool as a rubiks cube!!! I want one!
Are you sure Toys'r'us still stock them? My parents deprived me of an Etch-A-Sketch
as a child, hence the reason for all the childhood developmental problems,
and the manchild syndrome of my adult life. All could of been avoided,
if they just gave me that EtchASketch ,for christmas, I wouldn't of had to
lock them up in the basement and do very bad things to em.... Whoops Public forum.....

Okay i mean, if you read the release page, the only SDK enhancement is "Nodal Integration"
This means, that it will be able to be used by other plugins and tools, and is integrated.
into the LW core. :)


Unbelievable...


Please, just keep talking like if I was never here. Have fun guys.

Bye.

RPG2006
08-07-2005, 11:59 AM
richcz3

Thank for that link to the SQ thread, this is the sort of stuff I've really been waiting to see. Very impressive.:thumbsup:

RPG

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