PDA

View Full Version : Female face... Crits really needed


SupRore
08-01-2005, 09:26 PM
I'm attempting, as my third model of a human face (the second is in my avatar) to model the head of a 16 year old girl...

My reference is this (Reference of the front included in model image) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelza3.jpg)

And the current state of the model is:
UPDATE:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelza25.jpg
Any advice would be greatly helpful.

AmyScott-Murray
08-01-2005, 10:53 PM
I think maybe the forehead/skull are too small compared to the rest of the face. The eyes are usually about halfway from chin to top of head - it's maybe the angle i'm seeing it from, but they look to be a bit too high up. If the rest of the head were bigger, the chin and jawbone would look more delicate by comparison. I don't know enough really about topology to comment on that, but if you're intending to animate it (or just want to be 100% correct) check out the body topology thread which is a sticky in the Maya forum. (but obviously is very helpful for any software).

Which program are you using, btw?

SupRore
08-01-2005, 11:48 PM
I think maybe the forehead/skull are too small compared to the rest of the face. The eyes are usually about halfway from chin to top of head - it's maybe the angle i'm seeing it from, but they look to be a bit too high up. If the rest of the head were bigger, the chin and jawbone would look more delicate by comparison. I don't know enough really about topology to comment on that, but if you're intending to animate it (or just want to be 100% correct) check out the body topology thread which is a sticky in the Maya forum. (but obviously is very helpful for any software).

Which program are you using, btw?

Max. And my topology's going to be in rings, which is good for animation.

Thanks for the rest, but the general scale of the head and placement of the eyes matches the reference...

Drakaran
08-01-2005, 11:59 PM
what I'd suggest is getting a good book on making organic topography (there are some good online tuts, but I've found it's easier to refer to a book laying right beside the computer), the lines of model should follow the curves of the face, not slice straight threw them. some modelers (that are still kinda new) work with a physical rep of what they are modeling, like a marianette's head and draw lines on it that follow the contours to help them figure out how to shape the contours of their virtual model.there are many different approachs to modeling the same thing, take a look and find out what is most comfortable for you. *smile*

SupRore
08-02-2005, 01:11 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelza7.jpg

I know the topography needs a bit of work, but I really need help with the actual shape. It looks way too masculine.

Rockmanex
08-02-2005, 01:21 AM
What I would suggest for you to do is get a good side image. Your mesh seems to be suffering b/c you're basing most of the modeling on the front view only...this tends to flatten certain areas and gives things a dark crystal gelfling style look.

Then again, who knows right?

SupRore
08-02-2005, 01:29 AM
What I would suggest for you to do is get a good side image. Your mesh seems to be suffering b/c you're basing most of the modeling on the front view only...this tends to flatten certain areas and gives things a dark crystal gelfling style look.

Then again, who knows right?

That's a really good point. However, I've no access to a side view. :shrug:

Rockmanex
08-02-2005, 01:40 AM
I would find a girl that looks similar and use it as a reference to at least get general proportions, then go in and change things to match this particular front view.

humanforum
08-02-2005, 02:32 AM
I would agree with the others...you'll need to somehow fake a side view if you don't have access to one. Infact I would think your front view would be hard to work from since she's not really relaxed but rather in a kinda devilish smile pose. I find it easier to work from an expressionless reference from both front and side. I then draw over it in Photoshop to make the contours easier to see. You can see an example of what I do (I'm no expert...and infact am a real newbie) here:http://www.ladyluckbaits.com/template_flat.jpe

Then there is a lot of tweaking that needs to happen from all different views to start to get things right. The loops on my drawing are from a tutorial at elysiun.com by torq. To see it as it was posted go to: http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21066&highlight=

Best of luck.

HumanForum

SupRore
08-02-2005, 02:36 AM
I have pretty terrible reference, I know...

Thanks for your advice, in any case.

SupRore
08-02-2005, 04:58 PM
I got some alternate side reference, and think I can work through the forehead and chin areas. However, I'm having some problems with the overall shape, still...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/CHelzaerrors.jpg
Circled are the locations I really need advice on.

Dave Black
08-02-2005, 05:18 PM
Here are some things that jump right out at me.

First off, your "front view" is not orthographic. I.e., here head is tilted down on a slight angle toward the camera. This will completly ruin you model's proportions as they are now forshortened, and fisheyed.

Without a proper side view, you would be much better off modeling from a 3/4 shot. The front view you have now only gives you a very bad representation of your subject.

Secondly, your topology is off, and will murder your model down the line.

You really should learn the basic proportions of the face and skull before attempting to do something like this. For instance, the eyes are generally in the center of the face. Measure from the top of the skull to the bottom of the chin, and the eyes should be right in the middle. There is subtle variation between people, but this is something that is almost universal to the human race.

There is generally one eye width between the outside of the eye and the outside of the skull, with one eye's width between the eyes. And by width, I mean the diameter of the eyeball it's self. Also, while I know it looks like they should be that big, your eyes are WAY too large.

These basic measurements will aid in fitting your features more realistically to your model. Your model looks to have the same basic flaws almost all beginning facial models have. I strongly urge you to study proper proportion, even though you are tracing over a photo. This will ensure that your abilities to fill in the gaps where the photo is lacking will be made right.

Keep at it, and try searching around for the term "Cannon of the human head", or something to that effect. While I know it seems as though each face is different(and they are), they are different in the small things, not generally in the larger proportions.

Here is a simple example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.rev-art.com/lemenimages/hh4.jpg

-Dave

SupRore
08-02-2005, 05:29 PM
Thanks a lot, Dave Black. This should help a great deal.


For the sake of trying to improve my overall modeling, would you consider critiquing another of my facial models?

Dave Black
08-02-2005, 08:10 PM
Of course. Just give me a link.

Also, please be encouraged by my words, and do not take them as me blasting your work. You're off to a great start! We all made the same mistakes when we first started out, but with the proper critique, we can quickly advance past anything we think possible. Don't ever feel frustrated by things like this, simply look at your favorite inspirational images by other artists, and know that very soon you will surpase them. It is not only possible, but guaranteed with some dedication and practice!

Oh, and don't forget to DRAW! DRAW! DRAW!

-Dave

SupRore
08-02-2005, 11:16 PM
After having watched Dave Black's (excellent) timelapse video, I've restarted the model. I already used a similar technique to what he displayed, but I learned enough from watching it I feel it's worth applying to this model

Current status (also testing the light setup he links from his timelapse thread: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelzface21.jpg)

Drakaran
08-03-2005, 01:41 PM
that mouth looks 100% better! see? we aren't each trying to recreate the wheel, just express our own unique interpretation of it. *smile* good luck with your project.

SupRore
08-03-2005, 04:51 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelzagoingwell.jpg
The nose needs a little bit more work, but I'm very pleased so far. Also smoothing out the area around the mouth

SupRore
08-03-2005, 05:09 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelza24.jpg
Quick update. Lips need work.

K_Digital
08-03-2005, 05:51 PM
i think it's coming along better since you started over...the bottom of the nose needs to be rounded off, it looks to sharp and pointy.

SupRore
08-03-2005, 08:00 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelzaissues.jpg
Any suggestions about fixing the lower lip there? I'm not terribly good with meshsmooth, so it's giving me some trouble

tinitus
08-03-2005, 08:35 PM
in my opinion you should try to model the base shape first!

try get her whole head into one fitting lowpolyshape...

by the way...why are you modeling her?

SupRore
08-03-2005, 09:28 PM
in my opinion you should try to model the base shape first!

try get her whole head into one fitting lowpolyshape...

by the way...why are you modeling her?

I'm personally better with polymodeling each area at a time, high detail.

And I'm modeling her simply because she asked. And I need the practice.

SupRore
08-03-2005, 09:36 PM
Still got some issues on the lips, but I'm going to move on for now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/SupRore/Chelzlips3.jpg

tinitus
08-04-2005, 10:12 AM
I'm personally better with polymodeling each area at a time, high detail.

And I'm modeling her simply because she asked. And I need the practice.

I think I can model this way better ,too but you're not modeling a face out of your inspiration!
you're trying to model someone!so it's VERY important to model the base shape first!
you can just do whatevery you want with your model...thats right...but why the difficult way?
and well it's still not looking like her!
just my crit!

Bangladesh
08-04-2005, 10:30 AM
If you know this person well, it would help if you got some additional photos taken; another for the front (she tilts her head down a little), one from the side, another when her cheek isn't destorted by the dog and one from the top or from the top slightly tipped towards the front of the face to get the curvation of the cheekbones.

For the mouth-issue; maybe it's the shadows in the picture that fools you somewhat into that curvation. I would pull the points on the lower lip near the corner of the mouth somewhat more towards the corners.

But it looks nice! I also go full out; a lot of detail from the start, point by point. =)

Dave Black
08-04-2005, 01:27 PM
I think I can model this way better ,too but you're not modeling a face out of your inspiration!
you're trying to model someone!so it's VERY important to model the base shape first!
you can just do whatevery you want with your model...thats right...but why the difficult way?
and well it's still not looking like her!
just my crit!

If you're referring to box modeling, then it's not exactly "the easy way". Some people find it very difficult. I do agree that one should not get to heavy into detail before establishing the basic proportions, but the ease in methodology that one uses to get there is highly subjective.

-Dave

tinitus
08-04-2005, 01:40 PM
If you're referring to box modeling, then it's not exactly "the easy way". Some people find it very difficult. I do agree that one should not get to heavy into detail before establishing the basic proportions, but the ease in methodology that one uses to get there is highly subjective.

-Dave

so well I would say "model how you want" if you're just modeling 'out of your head'
but this should be a photoreal-image-reference-model and you should if you got not so much model experience try to get the base shape first...
just my opinion!

Dave Black
08-04-2005, 03:03 PM
so well I would say "model how you want" if you're just modeling 'out of your head'
but this should be a photoreal-image-reference-model and you should if you got not so much model experience try to get the base shape first...
just my opinion!

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. You are correct! One MUST get the proper proportions before adding detail. Especially when attempting to create a model from an actual person. What I was disagreeing with was starting by boxing out the whole thing. If he feels more comfortable using a poly-by-poly approach, then that's what he should use. But HE has to keep in mind that he has to create the overal proportions first, then add detail.

-Dave

tinitus
08-04-2005, 03:53 PM
so well I never forced him to use boxmodeling...
he can use poly-per-poly modeling if he wants but he should always first get the base shape...but well we figured that more than out I guess... so SupRore...its your turn!

Barada73
08-04-2005, 06:02 PM
I'm thinking that if she asked you to model her in 3D, then she needs to provide you with reference materials that you can actually use.

BTW, your second attempt looks a lot better.

SupRore
08-04-2005, 08:41 PM
I'm putting this model on hold, for a week. Then she'll have access to a camera again, and I can get some better reference.

At which point I'll, for the third time, restart the model.

CGTalk Moderation
08-04-2005, 08:41 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.