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funfun
08-01-2005, 03:17 PM
http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-05e.html

LightWave 3D version 9.0 Features:

• Modeling Tool Subset in Layout
• Faster OpenGL Performance
• Enhanced OpenGL Hardware Shader Support for accurate preview in real time for textures and lighting
• Faster Raytrace Rendering – up to 2.5X or better
• Adaptive Mesh subdivision based on visibility and distance to camera
• Faster Subdivision Surfaces
• Subdivision Surface modeling with n-gons
• True edge support in modeling, including edge weighting
• Enhanced MultiShift Modeling tool with reusable histories
• More flexibility and more user controls for the GUI
• Dynamics rewritten for improved precision, performance and capabilities
• Dynamics UI redesigned for easy and intuitive workflow
• Consolidation of tools for a streamlined workflow in Modeler
• Node-based procedural shading system
• Relativity 2 Expressions System
• Particle surface shading system
• Environment instancing on surfaces
• Camera time warper for effects such as bullet time, etc.
• Hypervoxel particle surface deformer
• Surface deformation-based texture map and color controller
• Camera lens shader system
• Much, much more

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 03:24 PM
Q4? That's sooner then I guessed.

Gotta see it. Anxious for screens, vids and comments from people at SIGGy.

LightwaveGuy
08-01-2005, 03:32 PM
I like the way NT is still offering an upgrade in the [8] cycle "8.5" not to mention the "8.5 64bit" release :thumbsup: . Gotta see those LW9 Sigg Vids :)

Mike RB
08-01-2005, 03:33 PM
Cool! How many of those are straight outta Prem's Rel2 toychest?

Surface deformation-based texture map and color controller
Camera time warper for effects such as bullet time, etc.
Particle surface shading system
Relativity 2 Expressions System

Nice to see they added Prem as a developer.

http://www.premdesign.com/ppp.html
"news coming soon" and his rel2 site is down.... :)

Mike

ages
08-01-2005, 03:39 PM
Is this going to be another lw8 free plugin wank upgrade again, cause if it is, im selling my lisence.

cornbreadandham
08-01-2005, 03:40 PM
LW 9 Feature List (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9featureprelim.php)

LightwaveGuy
08-01-2005, 03:44 PM
Is this going to be another lw8 free plugin wank upgrade again, cause if it is, im selling my lisence.

I'm sure at Sigg we'll find out...

mlmiller1983
08-01-2005, 03:47 PM
This is Good news! And it only going to be $400 to upgrade for those with LW 8 and it also comes with Vue 5 Infinite.

Also good to read they are making improvements to the dynamics system.:)

WillBellJr
08-01-2005, 03:47 PM
So are they saying here you get a full legit copy of Vue5I as well as a free rollover to LW v9 for $395??

I was looking to upgrade my Vue4 to V5i but was put off due to the poor support V5i gives to lightwave textures...

May be worth the upgrade (now) if this is really the case?...

-Will

Orkman
08-01-2005, 03:48 PM
When is the 8.5 upgrade available for download?

need4cg
08-01-2005, 03:50 PM
Not sure if I find v9.0 all too interesting yet, but the upgrade offer to get both 9.0 and Vue 5 Infinite for $395 looks like a good deal just to get my hands on Vue 5. Never used Vue 5 before, but it looks like a very useful tool for creating and rendering environments.

plotz
08-01-2005, 03:52 PM
Did they just lower the price of a full seat too? It looks like the press release says "$795.00". Wasn't it previously $1600?

TYROT
08-01-2005, 03:55 PM
DEAR NEWTEK

WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
i KNEW it I KNEW it....damn it .

NGONS! RELATIVITY2! EDGES! MODEL TOOLS IN LAYOUT !NEW PRICE! .. NODE BASED SHADERS..and more...
MAN this is it...
Lightwave is HERE TO STAY


---CNN BREAKING NEWS
Good Morning. Another Breaking News from NEwtek....Our Forum reporter's John is waiting right now in CGTALK
- JOHN ..i couldnt hear ..Did you say 795$ for NGONS..EDGES...Tears??JOhn are you crying overthere?
-ROB ! I did SAY yes. No i m not crying..these are not tears... New Price for Lightwave has been announced and new features..a dream has come true....
- John ..I read Prem's Relativity overthere.Isnt it shocking for wavers?
- Rob yes. Prem.Surface Effector's prem, Relativity's Prem.THe ArchAngel of Einstein, yes..His tools will be integrated to Lightwave 9. IKeda, Prem its like Lightwave is defying every Rules of 3d Assumptions. They said it s gonna fall but it Didnt..it s growing ...
- John ! Listen if i order now i will get free Vue 5 infinite as well right..
-Rob yes. I mean this double triple combo killer deal.. What more you can ask from? a place from Heaven well you should pray for it Rob. Or a decent divorce agreement? you should call your lawyer Rob. But if you ask something from 3d , Lightwave delivers it..
-John i will get back to you...ASAP. please stay online ...calm down. No i am not crying. Studio is hot..you know... No i am not crying...

BEST

funfun
08-01-2005, 03:56 PM
LW 9 Feature List (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9featureprelim.php)

Typical speed improvements begin at 3x over LightWave version 8.3

Why 8.3 not 8.5? Does 8.5 offer some speed improvement as well?:)

mlmiller1983
08-01-2005, 04:00 PM
Did they just lower the price of a full seat too? It looks like the press release says "$795.00". Wasn't it previously $1600?

Yep. The Price Wars have begun.

ColinCohen
08-01-2005, 04:01 PM
Take a close look at the full feature list . . . a totally awesome update.

ANGEL_OF_WAR
08-01-2005, 04:03 PM
Wow, this is the best 3D news I've heard in a long time. The best part:



• Faster Loading of Dynamics Scene Files
• Redesigned Dynamics User Interface
• Better Workflow
• Improved Solving Precision
Improvements in dynamics loading and solving, and cleaner workflows in the dynamics user interface makes dynamics more attractive and easier to use. Higher precision in solver engines allow for better results right out of the box, and the redesigned user interface makes things easier to find and implement. This allows for greater experimentation to get the results that you want.


That, and a copy of Vue 5 Infinite (and Vue is doing Fusion to work with Lightwave as well...)

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 04:09 PM
Sight unseen, there's already dancing for joy.
All we have is a press release so far.

rickycox
08-01-2005, 04:11 PM
More info on pricing here
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7534

More info on Vue here
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vue5infinite/

brap
08-01-2005, 04:22 PM
Very exciting stuff! You can really see that Jay, Mark and the whole crew have really rolled up their sleeves for good brawl! :)


http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php

-Jamie

LightwaveGuy
08-01-2005, 04:27 PM
A Brawl indeed. Yes, good reading...

Mylenium
08-01-2005, 04:32 PM
I'm not the least impressed. It's the same f***ing thing NT always does - throw in a few third-party tools and don't care much about the rest. The lens system was supposed to come out as "Vodka" from Tufflittleunit, Relativity is dead old and in my view just as ugly as LW's own expression system, the node-based shader system seems to be the one you can already buy from the guys making Amleto. Really disappointing.

Mylenium

ColinCohen
08-01-2005, 04:34 PM
Sight unseen, there's already dancing for joy.
All we have is a press release so far.

Of course, we should hold off our hosannas until we see it working in real world environments.

On second thought, . . . :applause:

threedeworks
08-01-2005, 04:47 PM
I'm not the least impressed. It's the same f***ing thing NT always does - throw in a few third-party tools and don't care much about the rest. The lens system was supposed to come out as "Vodka" from Tufflittleunit, Relativity is dead old and in my view just as ugly as LW's own expression system, the node-based shader system seems to be the one you can already buy from the guys making Amleto. Really disappointing.

Mylenium

well, that explains why the tufflittleunit units never replied to my insisting email if someday there will be a mac port ;)

but in my eyes it looks better than that: look at the promising hardware opengl thing, look at the integration of some modelling tools into layout (not caring myself, but apparently 50% of all users wanted this - btw. will we be able to keyframe that modeling steps??), look at the true edge support with ngons (ok, we already have modo, now - but it was overdue!), look at the redesign of the raytracer core... this is more than simply adding some plugs.


btw there are a bit more in depth infos here:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9featureprelim.php

ok to clap the hands only when we see it on our macs and pc's - but the direction is looking good to me :thumbsup:

markus

Chuck Baker
08-01-2005, 04:56 PM
I'm not the least impressed. It's the same f***ing thing NT always does - throw in a few third-party tools and don't care much about the rest. The lens system was supposed to come out as "Vodka" from Tufflittleunit, Relativity is dead old and in my view just as ugly as LW's own expression system, the node-based shader system seems to be the one you can already buy from the guys making Amleto. Really disappointing.

Mylenium

The work done by the new team on the core and described both in the feature list and the white paper on Development far outweighs the few acquisitions that are slated for 9. Any reasonable review of the situation will reach this conclusion. The extraction of the renderer and the replacement of the raytracing core with a completely new one is major. The extraction of the mesh-editing core and making it accessible to both Layout and Modeler is major. The complete replacement of the internal drawing routines and the OpenGL implementation is major, and a case can be made that any one of these by itself outweighs the acquisitions both in terms of benefit to the user and implications for the future.

ericsmith
08-01-2005, 05:00 PM
I'm not the least impressed. It's the same f***ing thing NT always does - throw in a few third-party tools and don't care much about the rest. The lens system was supposed to come out as "Vodka" from Tufflittleunit, Relativity is dead old and in my view just as ugly as LW's own expression system, the node-based shader system seems to be the one you can already buy from the guys making Amleto. Really disappointing. Mylenium

Okay, lets look at this rationally:

1. edges and ngons
2. modeling tools in Layout
3. significantly faster render engine
4. adaptive subd tesselation
5. significant openGL improvements (procedurals in open GL- how cool is that)
6. improvements in speed and accuracy for dynamics

Sure, there's a lot of added plugins, but for me, that's just icing on the cake. I personally view this as the most significant upgrade to Lightwave since 6.0.

It's true, some of these features are simply catching up with other apps, but that's not the issue. What I see is a brand new programming team at Newtek that is really getting it done. And getting it done fast.

Eric

Eric

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 05:21 PM
FPrime
"F Prime Support" under 'Material Shader Node Graph'. What does that mean? What's up with the SDK? Will FP be able to render EVERYTHING in a scene, or no?

ZBrush
I see "Normal Maps from Z Brush 2 Supported". Great. What about 16bit tiff importer, too? Do you have a new Displacement plug or are you relying on Lynx's?
"While not true micro-poly displacement..." Why's that? Just how close to it will the new system be?

UI
I could care less about colors of buttons. Can I have object and lights properties open at the same time? How about tear off panels?

Play well with others
What about better support for other's object formats, import and export? Anything to make import of objects or even scenes from other apps easier? With the improvements descrbed in the renderer, plus the long standing 999 node rendering ability, LW will at the very least be a sought after rendering option. I think it's wise to support a variety of import/export options, and do it well.

threedeworks
08-01-2005, 05:24 PM
(...) The extraction of the renderer and the replacement of the raytracing core with a completely new one is major. (...)

chuck, does 'extraction of the renderer' mean that in future we can render (or test render) and continue to work in layout at the same time?

cheers

markus

webhead
08-01-2005, 05:34 PM
Okay, lets look at this rationally:

It's true, some of these features are simply catching up with other apps, but that's not the issue. What I see is a brand new programming team at Newtek that is really getting it done. And getting it done fast.

Eric

I would agree. Also, even if it is just "catching up" with what other apps already have, that's still lots better than staying behind. A step at a time. Just keep taking them steps!

TRick
08-01-2005, 05:35 PM
I'm not the least impressed. It's the same f***ing thing NT always does - throw in a few third-party tools and don't care much about the rest. The lens system was supposed to come out as "Vodka" from Tufflittleunit, Relativity is dead old and in my view just as ugly as LW's own expression system, the node-based shader system seems to be the one you can already buy from the guys making Amleto. Really disappointing.

Mylenium

:twisted: Didn't I see this SAME text on more forums in the last hours :twisted: A SHAME for someone who seemed to have professional experience

My opinion:
- integrating 3rd party tools is GOOD
- delivering both an 8.5 update and a partly reegineered 9 upgrade is GOOD
- annoucing both released within max.5 months is GOOD
- talk LESS bullshit and talk MORE roadmap is GOOD

:bounce: :applause: :thumbsup: :love: :buttrock: (PS: I am not a fanboy, LW is just ONE of many 3D apps I - legally and professionally - use - MODO is one of them :twisted: )

vonbon
08-01-2005, 05:43 PM
Blah! Blah! Blah!. When does it come out so I can get my copy. :D

erikals
08-01-2005, 05:44 PM
Good stuff.
I'm glad 9 is annouced this early, and hope it'll be out by Q4 2005, as estimated.
The upgrade price is fair/good as well.

For me it's sort of a relief I guess, as an early shipping of version 9 probably means an earlier shipping of version 9.5, -which hopefully will have more of the features I'm interested in.

What I miss the most is CrowdSim and MuscleDyn, hope it comes around.

But great job NewTek, looks very good :thumbsup:

Darth Mole
08-01-2005, 05:49 PM
I don't believe some of the negative respone to this. People have asked for N-gons, edge weighting, faster OpenGL, better Modeller tools and improved SDS - NT has (or will) deliver on all of these. And it's not like someone can just overhaul LW's crappy old architecture and pull a new SDS system out of their ass. There's clearly some serious development going on here and I'm on board for the long haul.

(Somebody commented recently on Ferguson's proprietary and rather clunky implementation of SDS; you only have to look at C4D, for example, to see how it should be done. I hope the updated system takes some cues from there.)

My only grievance is that I've already got Vue 5 Infinite and $100 for a printed manual is taking the piss, somewhat! I may have to enter into negotiations..

LOR
08-01-2005, 06:06 PM
It's simple history. Some artists won't be happy until there's a "Make My Scene Perfect With No Effort From Me" button. You could make rendering 90% faster, add every tool in every other app, make the whole thing completely configurable and still hear whining about "but where's the automatic egyptian sandstorm button?"
;)

lor

Limbus
08-01-2005, 06:08 PM
chuck, does 'extraction of the renderer' mean that in future we can render (or test render) and continue to work in layout at the same time?

cheers

markus

I hope so! Right now you can use the LWSNC (LightWaveScreamerNetController) from dstorm to render outside of layout. Its not that comfy but it works and its free.

Florian

Mike Pauza
08-01-2005, 06:15 PM
The announcement is a step in the right direction if they can pull it off quickly.
I'm personally quite disapointed there's not a huge dynamics announcement though.

-Mike Pauza

KOryH
08-01-2005, 06:17 PM
out of curiosity, Mike,
What would be huge.
not that I dissagree with you, just wondering what someone with lots of experience is
looking for.

goodrichm
08-01-2005, 06:32 PM
My only complaint are the upgrade options for us VT users...or Lack Of...

DickBoot
08-01-2005, 06:36 PM
well....the list of features looks awesome :applause:
i only hope that there will be a upgrade offer WITHOUT that Vue 5....i don't want that
someone suggested a bundle with FPrime....now THAT's a bundle deal.....:D

modernhorse
08-01-2005, 06:36 PM
The extraction of the renderer and the replacement of the raytracing core with a completely new one is major.

Yeah, I'd like clarification on this too. Thanks.

hrgiger
08-01-2005, 06:40 PM
Anybody who has a negative outlook on this one, no names mentioned (Mylenium) must clearly be reading the wrong press release.

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 06:47 PM
Some people will call everything poop.
Some could be given poop and go WOOOOOOO!

Somewhere in-between you'll find rational comments, questions and info.
First off, I'm not judging one way or another until I can see it or more precisely, play with it for awhile. Any judgement, either way, is WAY premature.

I have some questions I would like answered. I agree with the earlier comment that even catching up to the other apps is an achievement. It's reassuring to think it's going forward at all but there's so much in those press releases that's said and not said. You could pick any section of those releases and have a lot of discussions and questions.

Mike Pauza
08-01-2005, 06:53 PM
out of curiosity, Mike,
What would be huge.
not that I dissagree with you, just wondering what someone with lots of experience is
looking for.

KOryH:
I had heard NewTek was going to be licensing a major physics engine. I was expecting them to announce that today...NewTek didn't, but SoftImage did.

-Mike

LOR
08-01-2005, 07:00 PM
Somewhere in-between you'll find rational comments, questions and info.
First off, I'm not judging one way or another until I can see it or more precisely, play with it for awhile. Any judgement, either way, is WAY premature.

I have some questions I would like answered. I agree with the earlier comment that even catching up to the other apps is an achievement. It's reassuring to think it's going forward at all but there's so much in those press releases that's said and not said. You could pick any section of those releases and have a lot of discussions and questions.

Truly, I agree. As one who has experienced many generations of upgrades, I know it is premature to freak out one way or the other. :) I do find it difficult though, after a couple of years of minor enhancements, not to find this news fairly major. IF what Jay Roth says in his interview is all true, then the future seems promising.

lor

Nemoid
08-01-2005, 07:32 PM
Hey i read both the feature list for 9.0 and the Jay Roth interview and i have to say that, if all its true it really looks all very promising, both for Lw and the industry.

i really appreciated all the parts talking about core restructuring and innovation.
its not so easy rework quite entirely an old core like the team is doing , and this time it truely seems like Nt took seriously the challenge of the market as well .

Many of the announced core works are actually major ones,(and the right ones) giving common parts to layout and modeler both in toolset for modelling and also things like weight maps, previously impossible to paint in layout.

among all the feature list announced , i also noticed that development roadmap will be not only the one of the huge list, but also based on community requests, and so, development will be focused more and more to reach perfection.

ok maybe its not the right time to make jumps for joy but all these announcements look more than promising, just because, more than the new features,what's even more interesting is that core limitations are going to be addressed, and this is the best announcement i could have read. :)

colkai
08-01-2005, 07:39 PM
I don't believe some of the negative respone to this. People have asked for N-gons, edge weighting, faster OpenGL, better Modeller tools and improved SDS - NT has (or will) deliver on all of these.
Yeah,
But they didn't do it yesterday did they? and it's not for free is it? and they probably won't work will they? and ..and...and....

Of course, if any other package had announced such a huge re-write of their software, there would be rejoicing in the streets and parties all night. But as we all know, being LW, well, that ain't gonna happen. :p

PetterSundnes
08-01-2005, 07:43 PM
:bounce: i am partying... almost dancing in the streets too (too shy to do so).

The addition of OpenGL 2.0 and with the upcoming 3D engine Poetry In Motion, I am one happy camper :thumbsup:

Darth Mole
08-01-2005, 07:54 PM
I'd like to applaud NT for the detailed page on the development of LW and the interview with Jay Roth.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php

For the first time since LW 5.6 (I'm a Mac user), I feel like there's a clear direction for the app, and am grateful that someone has stated publically their goals to both innovate but also create a "profoundly stable platform."

I'm feeling pretty happy about LW's future; long may it continue. Now then, about those LW9 showfloor videos...?

ThomasHelzle
08-01-2005, 07:59 PM
I would really like to see Newtek go back to the habit of selling their own Software.
It is cool to have bundles and promotions as an option for people who like/need it, but being forced to buy software you will never touch in the foreseeable future with every update isn't very cool.
I would rather pay 100$ less and get just the update without Vue.

At least the announcement of version {9} looks like the team is going in the right direction finally. It is exactly what [8] should have been. I look forward to hear how all that new core functionality will perform in production and how stable it will be - I remember some horrible things from the last core changes in <6>.
But I am not sure if I will come back to LW for {9}
For now, I will stay with XSI 5 (http://www.softimage.com/Products/Xsi/v5/nfvt/default.asp) and be a happy camper since it has most of those tools already... :)

Cheers,

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 08:06 PM
I would rather pay 100$ less and get just the update without Vue.

Agreed.
Maybe try and sell Vue on Ebay. I got about $200 for DFX+ from the 8 preorder a while back.

Fongool
08-01-2005, 08:19 PM
For less than the price of Vue 5 you're getting LW9 AND Vue 5... you'd trade that for an additional $100 discount? Am I missing something?


Is this like some crippled, castrated version of Vue? 'Cause it sounds like an awesome deal to me! But sometimes I'm dumb. :shrug:

Chaz
08-01-2005, 08:21 PM
When can we see screens and movies of it? I'm really interested to see what's new in the character animation tools.

colkai
08-01-2005, 08:26 PM
Is this like some crippled, castrated version of Vue? 'Cause it sounds like an awesome deal to me! But sometimes I'm dumb. :shrug:
Nope it ain't crippled, and nope - you ain't dumb. :p

Sil3
08-01-2005, 08:41 PM
For less than the price of Vue 5 you're getting LW9 AND Vue 5... you'd trade that for an additional $100 discount? Am I missing something?




Hummmm.... if Thomas is like me he doesnt need Vue5, so a discount for those that dont need that particular software should be considered, see now what Thomas was talking about?

About LW9, oh boy it really looks like NT is finally getting on it´s feet, that´s nice really nice...but...i remember "dancing" and "raving" when i saw 2 years ago Proton videos from Sig showing what looked like amazing Dynamics and IK booster, later they proved to be almost useless, so im not "dancing" yet, i will only probably do it when i can see the new features working like advertised, until then... :shrug:

I also doubt i´ll head over to LW9, probably a bit too late for me, i asked for edges and lot´s other stuff for years i was expecting them in LW8 not in another payed upgrade, but future is always uncertain so i can never say never :)

richcz3
08-01-2005, 08:45 PM
...Sure, there's a lot of added plugins, but for me, that's just icing on the cake. I personally view this as the most significant upgrade to Lightwave since 6.0......Eric

Eric
That's how I read it. I am really looking forward to this one.

-NG-
08-01-2005, 08:58 PM
This list is looking very promising. :)

Fongool
08-01-2005, 09:01 PM
I think it's interesting that they're commited to both maintaining the seperate modeler/layout scheme AND integrating modeler tools in layout. I'm one of those people who like them seperate, but I can see awesome possibilities for making some tasks easier and more convenient when you can do 'em in Layout.

Some of the features just sound like really fun toys to play with, like the camera lens shader and the time warp thing, but I'm liking the sound of the new renderer and the nodal surfacing.

Can't wait to hear about all the rigging and IK enhancements in detail, and real edge tools are pretty cool. I've never had a reason to care about n-gons yet, I suspect it'll just allow people to be sloppier modelers? (kidding! sort of.)
:arteest:
I dunno, considering that we've got a fresh new team that's eager to make their mark, the first building blocks of a new core, a feature list that covers a good chunk of the things people have been demanding AND a lower price to lure people in, I think the future can only be good. Not magical, because obviously there will be bugs and caveats along the way, but definitely good. :thumbsup:

And you get Vue! I'll have to write some outdoor scenes into my short now... :p

So, where's the betting pool for the actual release date?:beer:

WillBellJr
08-01-2005, 09:07 PM
Well I guess if my modeling affections hadn't shifted over to Silo and ZBrush2, I'd be a little more excited.

Lightwave rendering is still in my heart, even though I now own XSI. I'll probably get the upgrade but I'm just not feeling rushed about having access to the new features.

-Will

Fongool
08-01-2005, 09:15 PM
a discount for those that dont need that particular software should be considered, see now what Thomas was talking about?



Sure, I "understand" it... but my point is that you're trading a $600 software package for a $100 discount. Sell it on Ebay like Zara suggests or whatever, but it's still a $600 package.

Anyway, say NewTek wasn't offering Vue with the upgrade. WOuld you be saying: "aw man, $400 for an upgrade! That sucks! gimme $100 off!"?? I wouldn't. :shrug:

To me you're getting LW9 at a reasonable price and Vue for free.

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 09:25 PM
Actually I'd ask for a discount for having pre-ordered 8. I've used Modeler [8] 2 or 3 times, but went back to 7.5 for stability. I didn't fully switch over to Layout until 8.3 (once again, stability).
8 will be a badge of honor, like you can tell people years from now "I survived LW 8".

9 may be great, but getting through 8 has been rough at times and not worth the money spent. That said, I'll probably upgrade to 9 since I don't have any other animation or rendering software and on Mac there's Maya and C4D and the Mac users are griping about C4D and Maya, well, that's an expensive switch in both time and money.
I hope this time I'll get a decent bang for my bucks.

vonbon
08-01-2005, 09:30 PM
It is a great value getting Vue for free and DFX+ is a BAD (meaning good) program.

nvvm
08-01-2005, 09:35 PM
I have mixed feelings about this, for one I do like some of the upgrades coming with 8.5 but it seemed many of those should have been destined for 8.5 and were held off for 9.0. So seeing how the 8.xx line was lack luster and many new tools say bones for instance introduced were broken later. If not for the 64 bit 8.5 being free and including better opengl support I'd feel ripped off a little.

But as for lw9 in itself I like the direction it's going except plugin aquisition, not the plugin themselves just how newtek throws them in. We have tools of tools in modeler and layout buried, the workflow is destroyed by this imo. In stead of just aquiring tools intergrate them properly, consolidate the many tools in lighwave in a meaningful manner that stops the eroding workflow and instead compliments it. I am also tired of the work around mentality so I hope;

"This results in the ability to displace and deform with higher accuracy. While not true micro-poly displacement, this method will yield similar results in many cases"

Is the beginning of a great idea and expanded or a short term solution while the real one is being fixed, tweaked and improved. Lastly I do understand Newtek is undertaking a monumental task in rewriting the app while they they still mainting compatibility with the current outdated parts of the core still in use. So I applaud the Lightwave 9 release, But DON't GET COCKY your only 1/3rd of the way there! :P Where ever "there" may be ;)

Zarathustra
08-01-2005, 09:35 PM
DFX+ is a BAD (meaning bad) program if you're a Mac user, but that was before Lux showed off Modo on Macs. Since then the deals have been multi-platform.

vonbon
08-01-2005, 09:58 PM
Thats ya problem right there Z. You use a MAC man. LOL :p
I'm just kiddn

Psyhke
08-02-2005, 12:05 AM
It's been a while since I've posted at this forum, but I thought I'd pop in to say: :thumbsup: Keep up the hard work NT, and I'm sure it'll pay off.

telamon
08-02-2005, 12:22 AM
Wow, this feature list looks like LW 9 will be close to C4D R8 :D

no kidding...

Interesting feature list... But ATM it is only a feature list.

I'll wait for the official release (1st-2nd third 2006) plus two or three months of hardcore testing by other peoples and I'll make a decision on upgrading.

Sequent
08-02-2005, 01:10 AM
For those who are not interested in the Vue upgrade deal, I can understand wanting the upgrade itself a little cheaper. Though, what some said about selling it makes sense too (if that is an option and if that's something you don't mind dealing with).

For those who ARE interested in the Vue/LW9 upgrade... I wanted to point out that it looks like you can actually order that NOW. I just checked at my vendor (SHarbor) out of curiosity and noticed that the links are up and running.

Looks like they will ship Vue 5 Infinite NOW and then LW9 when it becomes available. As someone who was interested in Vue anyway, that seems pretty cool.

Btw... did I say NOW!?!

I know Q4 is still a while away so ordering so far in advance might not appeal to some... but there it is anyway. FYI

:)

habañero
08-02-2005, 01:56 AM
The negativity in this thread is incredible, my head nearly fell off reading the list and I have no understanding for the need of some people, not people in this thread but some other people I met sometime, to piss in all that good salad.

This is the most kickass news I got in a long while, both 8.5 and the near giveaway of the major update 9, very nice longterm lightwave weather forecasts, and I get Vue and Fprime 2 for free? The Holy Spirit! :bounce:

Zarathustra
08-02-2005, 03:14 AM
No, you don't get FPrime for free for buying/upgrading LW, if that's what you're saying and spare me the religious exclamations.

hrgiger
08-02-2005, 04:11 AM
And when you say the near giveaway of the major update 9, you should be well aware it is a paid upgrade and not a "giveaway".

mav3rick
08-02-2005, 07:18 AM
i have no prob with 9 upgrade price... for that amount of feature stuff it's steel ... i just recently bought waterpool... and that doesnt means i will be bitchin why i get it boundled with 9

mlmiller1983
08-02-2005, 01:03 PM
If they can release LW9 Q4 of 2005 I will be suprised. I will be impressed if LW9 is everything they claimed it is in the press release yesterday. Newtek is making a real effort to change the core of the software and bring it up to date, well as least they say they are, LW9 and beyond will be the judge of that. Though I do I glad to hear that they are improving the render. I guess some people will never be sastisfied no matter what Newtek.

mlmiller1983
08-02-2005, 01:05 PM
And when you say the near giveaway of the major update 9, you should be well aware it is a paid upgrade and not a "giveaway".

The $400 for an upgrade for those who own LW8 isn't really that bad.

mlmiller1983
08-02-2005, 01:06 PM
And when you say the near giveaway of the major update 9, you should be well aware it is a paid upgrade and not a "giveaway".

The $400 for an upgrade for those who own LW8 isn't a bad deal.

Gollum
08-02-2005, 01:43 PM
N-Gons? Check. True Edges? Check. Better SDS? Check. Modeling tools in Layout? Check. Improved Dynamics? Check. Interface/Workflow enhancements? Check. Better/faster OpenGL? Check. Updated rendering engine? Check. Improved suport for 3rd party renderers? Check. Improved surfacing/shading options? Check. SDK enhancements? Check. But most importantly - updated core architecture to be easier to modify, more stable and upgradable in the future? Check.

Now, I don't want to praise Newtek before they actually deliver, some of those features might not be quite as extensive and impressive as the announcement makes them seem, but reading that feature-list and interview sure gave me the impression that they're listening to our wishes very carefully. Not only that, but they seem to be trying to implement those wishes in as unpainfull a way as possible, by gradually transforming the old architecture into the new one.

I really don't see where all this doom and gloom is coming from. Especially since LW 9 seems right on track do deliver almost all the major feature upgrades this community has been demanding for years. Based on what little information we have, 9 will easily be 10x as big of a change for LW than 8 was. The price is fantastic too.

Sure, there appear to be several 3rd party aquisitions again, but not on the same scale as with 8. Most innovations in 9 seem to come from inside the team. And when NT actually hires the coders to be part of the LW team, I don't think that's a bad thing at all. That means more people who are passionate about the software will work on it, yay! 9 looks like the biggest update in LW history since [6] to me... :)

mav3rick
08-02-2005, 01:56 PM
we grow older, our wishes are bigger.. i can see ppl want miracle happen....

colkai
08-02-2005, 02:01 PM
we grow older, our wishes are bigger.. i can see ppl want miracle happen....
when it comes to a miracle, you can keep a fancier LW upgrade, just give me a lottery win! :p ;)

Zarathustra
08-02-2005, 02:04 PM
"Now, I don't want to praise Newtek before they actually deliver..." check.

"I really don't see where all this doom and gloom is coming from." [8]

"LW 9 seems right on track do deliver almost all the major feature upgrades this community has been demanding for years." Yes, years.


So there it is. Some people grew so horse asking and asking and asking, they left. The ones that haven't are still bitter over [8].
Yes, it's wonderful that these things are FINALLY coming.
Yes, it's great that the program will be rebuilt.
Yes, it's exciting to think that many new features may be much, much quicker to be added in future releases and that since the rebuild effort is over, all efforts can be aimed at adding and building on this new core.

It's just gonna take some time for NT to restore confidence in the product again, that's all. If all those features they list are there, they work consistently and there's considerable stability, then that will do a lot for morale of the userbase. That's the first step, catching up to the industry. Then (hopefully not long after) step two - start walking ahead of someone.
At this point all we have is a list and promises. As someone who used to live in Missouri, all I can say is "show me".

Panikos
08-02-2005, 02:52 PM
I want to keep an unbiased attitute towards the LW9 announcement.
Not to discourage the developers and not to encourage users with false assumptions.

Seems that Newtek integrated Relativity2 and TuffLittleUnit tools. I hope and wish this integration is effective and reliable and all the tools talk to each other.
I will be very dissapointed to figure that "this tool works only under these conditions"

Kid-Mesh
08-02-2005, 03:04 PM
Hmmm.... :surprised I kinda have mixed feelings about some of the response's here.

I would agree with Zarathustra to some degree if this were the "old" NewTek with the "old" developers and mind trust. But it isn't...Is it really fair that we hold the new development team feet to the fire? After all they have delivered, they haven't made promises that they "the new team" couldn't keep.

No one expected LW9 to be announced this soon nor the pending release date. Newtek is doing an awesome job by not only turning the corner but offering excellent combination packages with 3rd party software as well....could we be anymore a$$-hole-ish?

What a lot of people fail to realize is that we as a community are just a responsible for the success and failures of Newtek as well. True enough it's been a rough ride but damn it's been a kick ass one too. I've meet some really cool , talented, funny and helpful people since I've been a waver. Would you really want to be anywhere else? If so then why are you here?

Before we begin to take up the torches and start bitching and moaning we should at least give this team the proper time to do what they do. Honestly how can you complain? They inherited what they inherited but they are delivering and in a timely fashion I might add.

I guess all I'm trying to say is as a collective group could at least try to be a little more positive a little less cynical and a lot more appreciative. The best investment Newtek has made thus far has been internal and we the consumer are reaping the profits of that....things are going to be alright :thumbsup:

Muad'dib
08-02-2005, 03:19 PM
I think if us creatrive types actually came to realise what's actually been achieved under the LW hood by the dev. team and their newly assimilated henchmen there'd be a lot more praise going on atm. These are not small baby steps we seem to be looking at. But hey each to their own ... no harm in waiting on the vehicle to roll of the showroom floor before passing out comments as to it's speed and handling :)

Zarathustra
08-02-2005, 03:22 PM
"After all they have delivered..." all they've delivered so far is 8 and promises of what 9 will be. Who's responsible for 8? Old or new team? Does it matter either way?

I suppose you can find comfort in a nice community when your app screws up but the point still is that your app screwed up. I'd rather have the community throw rocks at me and have the app work well. Wait a minute, the community already does throw rocks at me.:hmm:

Remember all the crap the community gave Lux before they finally released Modo? All that, "well it's just vapor-ware" blah blah. Guess what LW9 is right now? When it's here, and it works and it lives up to that long ass list everyone's waving around THEN, by all means, go dance and wooooooo and all that fun stuff.

I don't understand this mentality of the customer having a responsibility to the manufacturer. Isn't supposed to be the other way around?

artmann
08-02-2005, 03:27 PM
newtek seem to focus on workflow, as well as on the core. besides just adding features.
i put my trust in them to implement technology slowly and robustly. they seem to give matters a lot of thought.

i think [7.5] was already a brilliant product, that´s why i bought [8].

i love the direction [9] is taking. and the price tag is just so correctly set.
it´s going to be the ultimate tool for poor freelancer like me, and probably for another bunch of people too

frankly, i can´t see any competition. man am i glad i just got on riding the wave

samartin
08-02-2005, 03:29 PM
Ahhh same old speculative posting, why is it necessary to waste energy on something you cannot see just yet (ie demo vids/siggraph feedback)?

I for one look forward to see where this goes, but until I can make judgements I'll hold out until I've seen videos/or maybe even upgraded to v9. Bye for now.

MattClary
08-02-2005, 03:31 PM
OOOOOOOHHHHH for F*CK sake! If there is anyone who uses LightWave who is not stoked about this announcement, you should REALLY be finding a new platform to do your work on rather than trolling on CGTalk.

softdistortion
08-02-2005, 03:31 PM
The negativity in this thread is incredible...

I really don't see where all this doom and gloom is coming from.

Isn't it alwys like this with every release and upgrade Newtek delivers? I'm surprised people still get surprised about it anymore...also the LW group is the only CGTalk forum I can recall that received a Moderator threat of shutdown due to bickering and inflamatory comments. :shrug:

samartin
08-02-2005, 03:50 PM
Isn't it alwys like this with every release and upgrade Newtek delivers? I'm surprised people still get surprised about it anymore...also the LW group is the only CGTalk forum I can recall that received a Moderator threat of shutdown due to bickering and inflamatory comments. :shrug:

It is indeed and it's just sickening to think that the LW'ers are seen as the bickering artist due tp a handful of people being pessimistic.

I guess Roberto will be round soon to say, please keep this light otherwise this thread will be gone. Maybe it would be a good thing to just delete the thread!

colkai
08-02-2005, 03:51 PM
all they've delivered so far is 8 and promises of what 9 will be. Who's responsible for 8? Old or new team? Does it matter either way?
Well, yes, as a matter of fact it does.
The new team have brought us LW8, part of the reason it's had problems is they were trying to keep it active whilst fixing all the old and dis-jointed code to a point they could start to benefit from new features. Menawhile, the old team, the ones responsible for all the failings that people heaped upon LW and who failed to deliver all the hopes and dreams of people, moved on.
What do we find, those same programmers are now hailed as Gods because they no longer work for Newtek, but wait a minute? didn't they NOT deliver what you wanted. So now you get on the new teams case because they are providing a list of things they ARE going to deliver, things which yes, did not get delivered for years , by the old team.
The comment "I'll believe it when i see it" suggests you don't think they are going to deliver the features. Again, you base this on the OLD teams failure to deliver, so once again, yes, old / new - it sure as heck does make a difference.

Kid-Mesh
08-02-2005, 03:53 PM
"....I don't understand this mentality of the customer having a responsibility to the manufacturer. Isn't supposed to be the other way around?

Cmon man are you serious? :) It's not like that in every market but in this arena we do bear a "certain" responsiblity to the manufacturer. We make request, we demand features, we test, use and report. In the end we are just as responsible for the end result based on our collective feedback.

Now beit that some times "X" manufacturer cant deliver for whatever reason. i.e. Skills, Finances etc but we as a community play a role. Also KidMesh aint throwing rocks at no one dude :twisted: we are all friends here.

But in regards to LW9 being vaporware I'd have to refute that one based on the Jay Roth interview and the use of the term "parallel changeover".

Just lighten up a little, it goes a long way.

TYROT
08-02-2005, 03:55 PM
dear wavers

CNN breaking news
Good something, Reactions are rising from almost every 3d forums but still some fellas are not ok with feature list...For details our Johnny boy is in the CGTALK thread right now

-John, Can you hear me. Ok..How s the reactions in CGTALK so far...

- Rob of course there are whiners still. They are comparing this update with 8 update...Can you believe this?

- Hey, How s that possible? In 8 version was there any PRICE SLASH?
- No ROB..
- They must be INSANE to compare this update with 8 th update..
- eccentric is better word Rob...you know..
- WAS there any SDK changes, Rendering touches, modeler changes, ngons, edges?
- No ROB
- But there were plugin imports right..That s why they are still whining right?
- Rob actually this is the flow of 3d industry is in right now. This is the current flow..Character studio integration, MB integration...even XSI integrated very famous physic engine...Even Mighty Unreal Engine is integrating many tool in its core, getting some other ultra promising engines (reality engine) with its coders...So THis WHINING style aganist to this current flow...
- Do you agree with them?
- I mean in Lightwave perspective of course not, I want WORLEY's import to Core Team even some Polish Plugin writers. THat s the most business wise and intelligent way. And you shouldnt miss that Lightwave SDK will be more open, flexible and this will be changing many flows into Lightwave's core. More interaction with other software, almost perfectly introduced new price.. It s just a long bright way for wavers...
- One last thing How s the other Threads in terms of updates..
- I have checked not only CGTalk but other forums as well. Only Lightwave and XSI users are dancing around. Some Max users started to complain about the Price. Maya users wants more...SO Newtek has dropped a bomb in to 3d arena.
- Thanks John we'll get back to you..


BEST

toonafish
08-02-2005, 03:57 PM
.....groundhog day again ;-)

colkai
08-02-2005, 04:05 PM
.....groundhog day again ;-)
I had a feeling of Deja-vu over that ..oh..wait. :p

Sequent
08-02-2005, 04:17 PM
Regarding the integration of plugins... that is not an entirely new thing. Other developers do it too. I've worked with audio and in the case of for example, Steinberg... over time nearly all of the plugins that I purchased separately wound up being thrown in for free in subsequent releases. Was I pissed? Sure. Those plugins added up to quite a bit. But they were necessary for what I needed when I got them and they paid for themselves anyway. So I guess it worked out.

The way I see it... it sounds like a lot of work is being done under the hood to pave the way for the future. I don't expect miracles from v9 - although what has been mentioned does sound very good! And the future looks very bright.

So, to me... v9 sounds like a really good upgrade to bring things up to snuff a bit, and the added plugins (especially since I don't already have them) are a nice bonus. That as well as the offer for Vue. All in all, I'm very satisfied with the way things appear to be going and I feel like I made a good investment in LW not only in terms of money but also in terms of time and efforts to learn how to use it.

Obviously your mileage may vary.

softdistortion
08-02-2005, 04:37 PM
- They must be INSANE to compare this update with 8 th update..
- eccentric is better word Rob...you know..



LoL...too funny that :thumbsup:

richcz3
08-02-2005, 04:42 PM
On Plugins

As far as I can tell every 3D app has included 3rd party plugins into their base application.

All you have to do is read through yesterdays News update on the other 3D app anouncements. Some people don't like it because they don't represent real core application changes that warrent an upgrade price. Considering the core changes included for LW9; for the upgrade price we are getting those and plugins. Not a bad deal at all. If you consider Vue 5 Inf essentialy for free, that looks like the best deal of the lot.

ON [8]

8 is what it is. It's the transitionary program that had its plumbing reworked to be functional and ready for the 9 release. There was virtualy no way around it unless people were willing to wait the entire 8-9 period using 7.5. Somehow I doubt that people would have stuck around if NT HAD NOT produced 8. A no show for 8 would have been industry suicide and all confidence would have been lost in NT. I personaly know that I was looking at other 3D options. Had 8 not come out, I would have bolted to another 3D app.

Zarathustra
08-02-2005, 04:56 PM
LOL. Well, who am I to intrude in someone's land of make-believe?
*clang clang*
Oh, gee, that's the trolly. That's me cue. Have fun producing more CNN broadcasts, Tyrot.


"Believe it when I see it" doesn't imply nor is there an intent to imply anything. It literally means I'll believe it when I see it. When I have it here, installed and thoroughly tested, then I can judge it one way or another.
Problem is, to really know if it's good or not that's exactly what I'll have to do because the majority of the community will praise it whether it's solid or not. Hell, they're praising it already and it's not even here. It's VERY difficult to get true, honest feedback about the product in this community. It's very frustrating.
The 8.3 announcement said something about 100s of bug fixes. Bug fixes? If you were judging the quality of 8-8.2 based on the majority of community posts, you'd think it was the greatest thing ever. What bugs could have been fixed?
Get the point?

Make believe newscasts and a string of :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: isn't helpful. Detailed reports of features in action are.

artmann
08-02-2005, 05:18 PM
talk about integrating plug-ins.
i used 3ds since r1. that´s almost ancient i guess.
max IS a plug-in.

max´s spline modeling - the old surface tools
reactor - havocs
the "new" cloth - cloth fx
the "new" hair - joe alters plug-in
vray, brazil, final render - all plug-in renderers
particle flow - they hired on oleg to write a new particle system, then they sacked him before he was finished. so now maxer´s eagerly awaitends to buy plug-ins from.... you guessed it oleg the developer
you know, i could go on and on...
and don´t get me started on trying to make these plug-ins behave together in productions...
guys, max finally got a motion mixer now in r8. do you know what i am saying?

don´t get me started on maya even, like their last new file referencing thingy (v6)... wich didn´t work even! or the new revamped trax editor - that they bought from someone else! actually that works but still ;)

i am not saying they aren´t powerful tools, they are
i am just saying the grass isn´t greener on the other side....

sometimes i get the impression lightwave artist expects maya to be able to provide them with real time feedback in viewports, animating skinned subd characters lol!
it won´t! it also slows down to a crawl! he he

5TEF
08-02-2005, 05:30 PM
$400 for an upgrade......hum..would prefer $300.

you can have a full pro 3D package for $495 !

Auger
08-02-2005, 05:37 PM
Their upgrade is $395.00 as well.

artmann
08-02-2005, 05:43 PM
$400 for an upgrade......hum..would prefer $300.

you can have a full pro 3D package for $495 !



i don´t mean to offend ya or anything, but sure, you can have an almost complete package for $495.

without any rigid bodies then. and with no chance of ever adding hair to any characters, if that´s you´re forté. but what do i know. maybe you´ll like them bald, or shaved even?!

:-)

richcz3
08-02-2005, 05:50 PM
Realisticaly, until we put LW9 through its production paces, LW9 is a target spec sheet. With the significant core changes, additions, and improvements, there is allot that can snap in the process. For those reason I would agree with Zara on the "Wait and See'.

The Roth interview is loaded with fairly blunt viewpoints and bold ideas for change. It's refreshing and encouraging to see that kind of thinking coming out of NT.

"These new features are intended to be production-reliable, meaning that they really work, and are not meant to merely wow at tradeshows. Sometimes these new features will be rather flashy; but always, whether flashy or just day-to-day useful, they will be reliable and solid. As we go, more and more innovation in LightWave will become apparent and undeniable."

and

"Our core goal is to always maintain a state of build-ability. This requires the engineering group to operate under the assumption that we may need to produce a build in very short order. Doing this allows for a certain discipline to be made in both our developmental practices as well as the choices that we make throughout the design and implementation process. That said, we are also removing any restrictions about "breaking" things, meaning that we need to move forward with our technologies. Doing so may cause older features or code assumptions to become invalid. As long as we have a solution that allows the user to benefit, and maintain his older assets as much as possible, that is allowed (and sometimes encouraged.)"

KillMe
08-02-2005, 05:55 PM
call me optomistic but i was always under the impression newtek didn't like to make announcemetns about features etc unless they were already working and stable - so that they would never have to jsutify why somethign they ahd promiced wasn't in a release

working from that assumption - the feature list we have now is what is already working and i am hoping for MORE when they finally release 9

DMack
08-02-2005, 06:21 PM
......Problem is, to really know if it's good or not that's exactly what I'll have to do because the majority of the community will praise it whether it's solid or not. Hell, they're praising it already and it's not even here. It's VERY difficult to get true, honest feedback about the product in this community. It's very frustrating........

I agree with this - I've posted one or two 'hey his doesn't work' to have someone claim it does completely work, and then have someone else say it is a known bug on Newtek's list....Just makes it difficult to rely on posts....Doesn't help ANYONE in the long run...not us and not Newtek. I am pleased with what I am hearing coming out of Newtek, a strong emphasis on foundation and stability but as some have said, I will judge it when I have really hammered it for a while.

Phyrea
08-02-2005, 07:04 PM
Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on this upgrade. While I admit I'm a NewTek "fanboy" that doesn't mean I can't judge something for what it is. I belong to the pre-ordered LW [8] crowd, and I got to wait three quarters of a year for its release. I could also see the downfalls of [8], and can freely admit that the dynamics in [8] are basic and need substantial work (especially making them work with endomorphs, etc). However, I haven't once been displeased with NewTek's new development and management team. Their goals for LW are so close to my own desires for the program it's sick. Yeah, I'll be pre-ordering the upgrade to version 9. I might even trade up my v5.0 parallel dongle to a new flashy USB one - at no charge to me! That's right, NewTek's cool like that.

softdistortion
08-02-2005, 07:39 PM
...Hell, they're praising it already and it's not even here. It's VERY difficult to get true, honest feedback about the product in this community. It's very frustrating.

Is it partly due to a LW having attracted a seemingly large hobbyist crowd? and if so Hobbyists won't give accurate production feedback, will they?

Mike Pauza
08-02-2005, 07:44 PM
More dynamics pessimism:

Now both Max and XSI support AGEIA’s physX™ SDK & PPU:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=264074

I bet Maya will eventually announce support as well.

Talk to me NewTek.



-Mike Pauza

egemenk
08-02-2005, 07:44 PM
And nobody mentions about GI improvements... Shall we expect faster and more advanced GI implementations to LW9? Or just the same old monte carlo radiosity :)

Mike Pauza
08-02-2005, 07:47 PM
Is it partly due to a LW having attracted a seemingly large hobbyist crowd? and if so Hobbyists won't give accurate production feedback, will they?

I think you might be right. -Mike

Phyrea
08-02-2005, 07:53 PM
Is it partly due to a LW having attracted a seemingly large hobbyist crowd? and if so Hobbyists won't give accurate production feedback, will they?

Complete nonsense. I was a top Corel beta tester when I was a teen in high school. I was a hobbyist at the time, but I was awarded an "Ace Bug Reporter" because I gave them some of their best feedback. I didn't have to be working on a production or an ad agency or a graphic design firm to figure out what didn't work, what wasn't working as intended, and what could be improved. The folks who are dedicated to using the software and who are passionate about the software are capable of some of the best feedback.

Of course, that doesn't discredit the feedback from studios and those who do use it in productions - they provide valuable feedback too.

colkai
08-02-2005, 08:05 PM
I kinda think that was Softdistortions point.
Lightwave has always had lots of feedback, where people differ is in how they go about giving that feedback.
If I encounter a problem, I usually try to verify it with other LW users I know, then send of details to Newtek. I've never found much point in ranting about something not working for the heck of it to all and sundry. It doesn't fix anything and it's likely to not make me look very good in the eyes of those I'm trying to get the details across to.

PSR
08-02-2005, 08:27 PM
I'm so glad I didn't waste money on any other sub-d modeller, tempted as I was by recent price reductions.

It's all going on LW9. Fantastic news, fantastic offer.

richcz3
08-02-2005, 08:32 PM
Is it partly due to a LW having attracted a seemingly large hobbyist crowd? and if so Hobbyists won't give accurate production feedback, will they?OUCH! - But there may be some truth there. Reading Roth's points on LW9, it does mention 3D affordability/usability for the masses. Which in and of itself is not a bad thing so long as LW maintains an equal footing amoungst professionals.

I'm so glad I didn't waste money on any other sub-d modeller, tempted as I was by recent price reductions.
It's all going on LW9. Fantastic news, fantastic offer. I was so close to buying Modo on Friday. I read through the Forums here and decided better against it. Seeing the new LW Modeler functions, I am glad I passed up on their price cut.

softdistortion
08-02-2005, 08:50 PM
Complete nonsense. The folks who are dedicated to using the software and who are passionate about the software are capable of some of the best feedback.

Of course, that doesn't discredit the feedback from studios and those who do use it in productions - they provide valuable feedback too.


Um... so you're arguing for the hobbyists feedback thing?
...didn't Corel go bankrupt?...er, what program did they make again? Just palyin with yah:D

It does seem hobbyists are good for playing with all the bells and whistles and finding what things don't work in odd combinations...production users won't likley use all the toys and mainly want speed/stability on the core tools they use. Plus they are likely too busy to be griping in the froums all day long.... :)

PS: I'm on holiday this week btw. :D

colkai
08-02-2005, 09:00 PM
Oh you can trust the folks who "play" to find bugs alright - I know this from personal experience. Of course, jsut how some of them end up finding those bugs can be highly bizzare. There was this one time I ... oh wait... that wasn't me. :p

nvvm
08-02-2005, 09:48 PM
After seeing all the other announcements I think that newtek had the best coming out so far.

max & maya wasn't so impressive
XSI was impressive but they are charging people for the next update if you bought earlier
c4d was decent though they are doing the same with xsi for pricing

Lightwave gives you some decent updates and 64 bit version for free with 8.5 then provided much needed updates to make it competitive again with the ver. 9 release. Though it's not completely caught up, it definately is a step in the right direction.

At least with lw we got something free vs others
xsi 4.2 to 5
maya 6.5 to 7
c4d 9.1 or .2 to 9.5
max I don't keep up with max :P

Lightwave 8.3 to 8.5 free 8.5 to 9.0 $395 :bounce:

Sequent
08-02-2005, 10:17 PM
I was so close to buying Modo on Friday. I read through the Forums here and decided better against it. Seeing the new LW Modeler functions, I am glad I passed up on their price cut.

Ditto here. I'll be saving up my money for ZBrush instead.

RenisanceX
08-02-2005, 11:01 PM
yup free is great really great can't wait to see fprime wit 9

But did you see what xsi can do now omg...really guys watch the videos on their site man if you can afford both what a studio that would be

Vojislav+Milanovic
08-02-2005, 11:02 PM
Someday people will understand that great things are created by great people and good software. For someone who is following LW from v5 I can only say LW is a good piece of software and its constantly getting better. Looking forward to new version, looking forward to 64-bit version and I'm sooo greatful for n-gons. I'm really tired of patching end poly's :

freakmoomin
08-02-2005, 11:06 PM
how about an undo that works?

PetterSundnes
08-02-2005, 11:07 PM
A concern to me is how LW 9 will treat ShockWave3D exporting and old plugins. Time will tell, but the question hit me today. With all these core changes, what happens to backwards compatibility...? hmmm

Phyrea
08-02-2005, 11:37 PM
Um... so you're arguing for the hobbyists feedback thing?
...didn't Corel go bankrupt?...er, what program did they make again? Just palyin with yah:D

It does seem hobbyists are good for playing with all the bells and whistles and finding what things don't work in odd combinations...production users won't likley use all the toys and mainly want speed/stability on the core tools they use. Plus they are likely too busy to be griping in the froums all day long.... :)

PS: I'm on holiday this week btw. :D

Good points! And no, they didn't go bankrupt, but they might as well have. Corel comes up with the most useless and humerous marketing ploys. Every trip to their website puts me in fits of laughter. They seem to have dropped a lot of their weird ventures from their site, but even now they're selling an E-MAIL program!? WTF... do they really want the Outlook marketshare? Ha! Oh, and I have nothing against Painter. I think that's a great program. It's probably the only thing Corel hasn't ruined.

richcz3
08-02-2005, 11:40 PM
A concern to me is how LW 9 will treat ShockWave3D exporting and old plugins. Time will tell, but the question hit me today. With all these core changes, what happens to backwards compatibility...? hmmmRead Jay Roth's development planning. LINK (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lwfuturedev.php)

"Our core goal is to always maintain a state of build-ability. This requires the engineering group to operate under the assumption that we may need to produce a build in very short order. Doing this allows for a certain discipline to be made in both our developmental practices as well as the choices that we make throughout the design and implementation process. That said, we are also removing any restrictions about "breaking" things, meaning that we need to move forward with our technologies. Doing so may cause older features or code assumptions to become invalid. As long as we have a solution that allows the user to benefit, and maintain his older assets as much as possible, that is allowed (and sometimes encouraged.)"

It sounds pretty agressive and I'm glad they brought someone on board who has the balls to address the short comings and lead for changes. I am sure that 3rd party plugin developers will need to make time to facilitate the changes as the core and sdk are further refined. This is the best long term solution for the future of LW.

telamon
08-02-2005, 11:54 PM
I have read incredible things here... I have just quoted three things here that come frequently.



No one expected LW9 to be announced this soon nor the pending release date. Newtek is doing an awesome job by not only turning the corner but offering excellent combination packages with 3rd party software as well....


For the moment I only rely on words given by Newtek... " We have done work... blablabla". I hope they did. Nevertheless the 8.x releases are not bright evidences of this so called awesome job for LW. Yeah we had the DFX+ deal, and I have been very happy with it. But NT is supposed to deliver a software called Lightwave, it is not a reseller of Eyeon software.


What a lot of people fail to realize is that we as a community are just a responsible for the success and failures of Newtek as well.


I do not bear any responsibility for Newtek. It is unbelievable... We have a client to supplier relationship. It is based on rather positive feelings and atmosphere but as long as there is money between me and them, I make a contract. They do a good product and I buy. If they don't I don't buy and go farther.


What do we find, those same programmers are now hailed as Gods because they no longer work for Newtek, but wait a minute? didn't they NOT deliver what you wanted. So now you get on the new teams case because they are providing a list of things they ARE going to deliver, things which yes, did not get delivered for years , by the old team.


The dev team delivers nothing. It works on a road map is on time or late but is not supposed to have any selling liability. Only Newtek delivers. If Newtek's responsibles decide that the delivery milestone must not be pushed off, a version of LW will be put on-line whether it may contain all the features or not.

All the discussions about the dev team is far from being professional IMHO. I personnally do not care of Lightwave's history. I have no bound with the Dev Team but with Newtek only. Newtek is my supplier.


Being skeptical is not a negative attitude dudes. It is a way to analyse a situation and consider how void the current one is. We only have an electronic sheet of paper. There is no reason for bouncing. If NT issues another one saying... "Hmmm ! We are not able to introduce edges in LW 9 because of the programme core"... What will the happy people say? "Wait and see" means I wait and I'll see if the programme I will receive is better than the one that I already have.

Cheers

mocaw
08-03-2005, 12:42 AM
Yeah I'm kind of optimistic, even though I felt a little burned by 8, but hey I through my money into that knowing that I was investing in 9.

I mean they can say something like "new animation tools" as they have and have them be fairly lame attempts, but something like edge weighting and true edges? I think you kind of either have those or don't. Nodal shader system- ditto. So some things are going to be there.

Oh and the stuff from tuff little unit is top notch- these guys are up there with worley and these aren't just some lscripts converted into C. Vodka looked great and tess was showing off nodal earlier this year and it looked really promising. How in the hell else do you think they got orthographic rendering and what not? Mind you that's with very little intergration- now that they are intergrated...well you get my point.

2X the render speed...now that can be subjective....

DotPainter
08-03-2005, 01:02 AM
Well, I think that Newtek is definitely going in the right direction. Look at all the other
apps and all those ooh and ahh moments, but realize that until you actually USE it, it
is only words on paper or bytes on silicone. Useability is a key part of the equation.
Maya IMO is one of the deepest tools out there, bar none. XSI is too. However, both
of those deeep toolsets come at a steep price in complexity and price. Once you get into them, though, you can indeed go a long way. LW on the other hand is not the most
complicated system to use. But while you dont have to figure out 300 zillion settings to get a decent GI render, sometimes you do feel that there are some more fundamental options
that are missing that should be part of a more modern GI/lighting implementation. So that said, I am looking forward to the new developments in the neighborhood, as they redo the
inner workings and making a deeper toolset, all the while keeping the same facade of simplicity that we are used to.

Zarathustra
08-03-2005, 02:37 AM
I've been busy. I see there was a tangent from what I said that ran into hobbyist users. That may have something to do with it, but I think Kid Mesh's assertions are largely why.

For a long time LW users have been very loyal. Some would say fanatical. Sometime just prior to 8's release, that fanatic loyalism was exploited. The userbase was prime for it. There was the big split and fear for what's coming. It was easy to blindly get behind YOUR NT and support LW.
First you heard 8 was just 7.5 with a mess of 3rd party plugs stuffed in it. AH! Quiet! Let's cheer it on. We gotta support it.
Then little by little people complained. Ah, they just don't understand. We gotta support it. Post all over that it's great.
Then some people started reporting bugs. SHH! Quiet! Don't let it seem like there's anything wrong. Then those supporters would post that the bugs didn't exist. Nope, works fine here. 5 to 10 posts denying it to try and somehow hide the problem.
When a topic is just too strong against LW just pick a fight, cause a scene or do something to change the whole focus of the thread and/or erode the credibility of those raising issues to then dismiss their claims.
Which then lead to the witchunt. Start labelling and badgering anyone who speaks of using another app, speaks ill of LW or NT or simply just doesn't get how important it is to support LW because it's our responsibility.

Look at the language and tactics used in this thread. How many times have people been referred to as "whiners" or "complainers"? What is the point of that? What does that accomplish? Why must it be either you're dancing on the tables with glee or else you're the enemy? THAT's the kind of crap that's somehow become confused as a responsibility to NT and LW.

What Telamon says is correct. We have a client to supplier relationship. That doesn't mean I don't have a long time love for LW and a softspot for it that keeps me hanging in here despite the rough last couple of years. I would like it to do well and I want it to be good. THAT's why I point out bugs. THAT's why I ask for things that every other app has and LW doesn't. If you think raising any of those points is somehow disparaging NT or LW, there's something wrong with you. If you think it's your responsibility to condemn and ridicule anyone who asks a single question about the 9 announcement or who isn't peeing themselves with glee over it, then I suggest taking a step back and asking yourself why the hell are you doing that why does it matter so much to you.

I use the program professionally. I need to know if something's off or if something just can't be done. Hell, I could stand to know if something is also easier or can only be done in another app. This is important information and it sucks that there's this assanine effort to kill any of that because it somehow paints LW in a bad light. Longtime LW users have been banned from forums for talking about other apps. Some forums censor the word "Modo". Absolutely ridiculous and detrimental to anyone who has to create cg to pay the bills.

ages
08-03-2005, 02:48 AM
Spinquad used to be good, no freedom there anymore.
This is sad cause apps like zbrush and modo help lw not compete against it.

http://www.lwg3d.org/v3/index.php group is the best webpage, they have threads for zbrush and maya and A.E.

HarverdGrad
08-03-2005, 03:20 AM
I purchased a full seat of Lightwave 7.5 prior to the release of 8.0. I have mixed feelings about 9.0. I already own Relativity + Vue 5 Infinate. Edge Modeling is already being handled by another product. So for me, I don't think the upgrade will be worth it. I'm usually writing a check the minute new & improved comes out, but i think this time around- I'm going to sit back and wait. It will be interesting to read the feedback when it comes out.

The only thing I am jazzed about is FPrime2!!! That will be great :)

Somebody else mentioned earlier about other software & plugins being bundled. On paper it looks great, but if these added tools don't talk to each other- then this strategy isn't good overall. Time will tell.

michaeli
08-03-2005, 03:35 AM
c4d was decent though they are doing the same with xsi for pricing

Lightwave gives you some decent updates and 64 bit version for free with 8.5 then provided much needed updates to make it competitive again with the ver. 9 release.
:bounce:

Maxon has already shipped 64 bit version C4D to current R9.1 users free of charge months ago, if I am not wrong, I remembered newtek announced half of a year ago that it has a 64 bit LW and still can't deliver it yet till now.

RobertoOrtiz
08-03-2005, 03:38 AM
PEOPLE get back on topic.

-R

softdistortion
08-03-2005, 04:08 AM
good point ...but with all the clammering....What were we talking about again....? :)

Megalodon
08-03-2005, 04:33 AM
Look at the language and tactics used in this thread. How many times have people been referred to as "whiners" or "complainers"? What is the point of that? What does that accomplish? Why must it be either you're dancing on the tables with glee or else you're the enemy? THAT's the kind of crap that's somehow become confused as a responsibility to NT and LW.

I don't think that's the problem at all. There is a constructive way to provide feedback and then there is the "whiner and complainer" way to give feedback. When people just say that "the dynamics suck" and "this never worked right" is not helping AT ALL. I would say that most of these people who are labeled "whiners and complainers" do NOT help but hinder the process.

Spinquad used to be good, no freedom there anymore.
This is sad cause apps like zbrush and modo help lw not compete against it.

You won't be saying that when Lux unveils its renderer to compete directly with LW. SQ is a forum for LW, not Modo - or ZBrush for that matter. Though I can understand where Lux products should not be discussed, I don't see why ZBrush would not be.

Maxon has already shipped 64 bit version C4D to current R9.1 users free of charge months ago, if I am not wrong, I remembered newtek announced half of a year ago that it has a 64 bit LW and still can't deliver it yet till now.

So what's your point? Are you here just to complain about Newtek? This is a typical example of not helping the situation. As it says in his name, C4D rocks. So why the negative comments on a LW forum?

I purchased a full seat of Lightwave 7.5 prior to the release of 8.0. I have mixed feelings about 9.0. I already own Relativity + Vue 5 Infinate. Edge Modeling is already being handled by another product. So for me, I don't think the upgrade will be worth it.

I think it's a tad too early to make statements like this. The upgrade won't be worth it? You really don't have any sort of complete idea as to what LW9 will ultimately have - no one here on these forums do. Yeah, they gave us a list - does anyone here think that there won't be any more than what's on that list?


I use the program professionally. I need to know if something's off or if something just can't be done. Hell, I could stand to know if something is also easier or can only be done in another app. This is important information and it sucks that there's this assanine effort to kill any of that because it somehow paints LW in a bad light. Longtime LW users have been banned from forums for talking about other apps. Some forums censor the word "Modo". Absolutely ridiculous and detrimental to anyone who has to create cg to pay the bills.

I use the program professionally too - 7 days a weeks. I don't have any major problems with it. And let's not get into the Modo stuff again - there are lots of things that have already been discussed to death both here and at SQ. I don't like Lux and won't buy Modo - or any of their products because of what happened at Newtek with "the split." I'm NOT going to go into it again. If you want to buy from Lux and you don't care about business ethics and just want to enhance your toolset, I have no problem with that. For me, it's not JUST about enhancing the toolset.

As to Lightwave 9 - I am VERY much looking forward to an improved application with lots of enhancements - more so than have already been listed. After reading the interview I do not feel cynical at all - I'm excited. To offer further conjecture at this point is a waste of time. An d as Harverdgrad said... Time will tell.

Megalodon

crpcory
08-03-2005, 05:18 AM
hah, i love forum moderators...masters of their domain and part time babysitters.

Every person will always want something in their app that won't ever make it, everyone, every app. NewTek just pulled a move that is Very gracious to their customers...considerable price drop, nearly half year notice on procut releases, very open about road maps and development and even willing to admit what areas their product is in need of improvement. This kind of behavior is rare from a major company. MANY large software companies are very hush hush until right before or right on the release and is not nearly as open...I really respect NewTek with this announcment. IT shows honesty and hardwork which means a lot if you're looking to invest in a program long term.

Progams will always add stuff a perticual person won't need and not include things they want. With software as deep as full 3D apps are, this is even more of a constant. IF you don't like a piece of software, sorry for your loss but no on makes you buy it. You agree to buy what they have (add on whatever specific promises they make), other than that the company doesn't owe the end user anything. They're not obligated to make good software anymore than the user is obligated to buy it..as long as they aren't being intentionally misleading.

I just put my order in today, lucky me i was just about to buy VUE anyways. This LW9 is coming quick, cheap and full or flavor. This looks like win win for the user as far as i can see.

So..anyone know when vids are going to be shown?

c-g
08-03-2005, 06:02 AM
I don't like Lux and won't buy Modo - or any of their products because of what happened at Newtek with "the split." I'm NOT going to go into it again. If you want to buy from Lux and you don't care about business ethics

Give it a rest or go play your little violin somewhere that this topic wasn't beat to death.

This thread is about LW9 not your three year old feelings about Luxology and what you THINK they did to you.

Newtek is showing off some soon to be released stuff as well as some future things. It shows they are moving forward. The negative comments should be allowed within reason unless you are going to censor the fanboy stuff too. The rest of us can discuss the topic in the middle. Are there things NewTek is doing well? Sure. Are there some things that they could do better? You bet. Can they turn LW into the XSI/Maya/Max/Modo/Zbrush killer overnight? No, and they know that.

Megalodon
08-03-2005, 06:16 AM
Give it a rest or go play your little violin somewhere that this topic wasn't beat to death.

This thread is about LW9 not your three year old feelings about Luxology and what you THINK they did to you.

Well... I didn't bring up Modo. As I said, I won't (and didn't) get into my "standard dissertation" concerning this issue. And... since this thread is about LW9, I agree - it should stay on topic. In addition... you have no idea what went down - some of us do. So it would be nice if you would curtail your "you don't know what you're talking about" attitude and keep it on topic as well. :)

Newtek is showing off some soon to be released stuff as well as some future things. It shows they are moving forward.

This much, I agree with you! :)


Megalodon

assistant pimp
08-03-2005, 06:20 AM
I know I am going to get bashed because I am new to the game and would be considered a hobbyist based on my skill level at the moment. But I think Newtek has made a solid committment to the customer base. I rank this version (9) up there with the likes of Macromedia and their MX 2004 suite, and Adobe with their CS2 suite. They obviously listened to the users and made some real genuine updates to some things I have heard being complained about for quite sometime. I for one am going to update to 9, so they won me over. I was considering and evaluating a bunch of apps, but LW is the way for me. And yes some of us new guys do do our homework. I may not be as skilled as some but I do research and try apps before going gung ho.

richcz3
08-03-2005, 06:49 AM
Argh...folks.
I explored Maya and XSI in depth last year with the intent to migrate/jump. There were multitude of reasons why I didn't. People are allowed to have reservations/apprehensions before and after LW8. For the record, I'm going to pre-order LW9 at first convenience for practical reasons.

Having been using LW since Beta 4, NT has had an interesting history in its dealing with LW. It looks like the divorce has sparked a renewed competive spirit. A spirit that should be clearly visable upon LW9 release. Reading Joe Roth's plan is very encouraging. Those who say "wait and see" are completely warrented in saying so. If its not what its advertised to be, well....to each his own at that point.

mlmiller1983
08-03-2005, 08:20 AM
The way I see it. If a company wants to stay in business and being in an industry like CG software they are going to work your ass off to stay in business. Newtek is making an effort and admitting they have fallen behind and are *supposedly* working hard to correct this. It won't happen over night but at least they are making an effort.

Nemoid
08-03-2005, 08:37 AM
That's what i think too. they are making a huge efforts, before 8.0 they were into a bad situation, with all the previous team leaving them to form Luxology they had to restart develoiping on the code that old team left to them, and keep selling the app. so, with 8.x cycle they started to work under the hood as well, but giving some enhancements to the app too. They started to rework the core making a new structure to provide lw 9.0 a solid basis. and this job hasn't been fully completed yet. this is my opinion.

at the end of the day, facts are what's important. and tools are what you have to look for to do your job.
when 9.0 will be out we'll know better if Nt team did their work well to improve our app. since they're here alot of positive things started happening for Lw universe.

maybe we're still into a transition period from old to modern things to come, both in development and i marketing wise, but they're doing quite well so far.

i also have to say that with all the apps out there, i don't fully understand why who doesn't like Lw , doesn't migrate to whatever other app he likes and be happy.

There's Maya, XSI, Max , C4D and also Lux seems doing a great job with Modo.
since in many users visions they all seem to be better than Lw, use them.

colkai
08-03-2005, 09:25 AM
To drag this thread screaming back on topic. :p
I was re-reading the stuff off the revamped LW website this morning over coffee.
There really is some very important statements made in there that need to be thought on.

As Nemoid pointed out, the one thing Newtek has done which is a nightmare from a coding point of view is trying to keep the program running whilst completely redoing the core.
I've done something similar in the past and to do that AND improve the code and keep it modular (or indeed make it modular) is pretty cool stuff.
When you look at this as well, once modular, it allows to to change one thing, knowing it won't break other items, which have now been separated into their own module. For anyone who understands coding and Object classes, this is one of the strengths of OOP and I think the reason Jay Roth mentions the fact that he believes it will produce a more robust program.

You know, if you broke the 'sub-d' class, then the fault lies within that, it also allows the expansion by having a class that inherits the base functionality and adds features, again another OOP concept.
If this is the way they've gone, I can see how many of the statements in that release apply.

Also, is it just me, or did others miss this little snippet?
"In addition, the team took advantage of an opportune moment to release a revised 8.3 when they completed the SDK changes to allow third party plug-ins to access shaders, volumetrics and fog, close on the heels of the initial 8.3 release."

This...
"It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options."

So not just access for 3rd party renderers such as maybe Kray / Maxwell et al, but, if I read it right, various render modules supplied by Newtek to best fit the CPU of choice? That's pretty neat.

Now yes, I don't know if other packages provide all these features, but this is about Lightwave 9.0 and to me, there has never been such a huge shift in LW since..well...ever.

Anyone else spotted little gems we may have not consciously registered yet?

softdistortion
08-03-2005, 10:01 AM
Thanks Colkai, know I remember what we were talking about :D

To drag this thread screaming back on topic. :p
This...
"It will be possible to ship multiple versions of the renderer optimized per platform (processor included), to implement multiple optional renderers that the user can select from, and to allow for third party rendering options."

So not just access for 3rd party renderers such as maybe Kray / Maxwell et al, but, if I read it right, various render modules supplied by Newtek to best fit the CPU of choice? That's pretty neat.

This would be VERY cool to see fully implimented, it would be great to see an engines like Maxwell drop into LW for scene renders!

Anyone else spotted little gems we may have not consciously registered yet?

Yeah, I know I've been wishing for this...If it works like it seems to suggest>

Complete Re-implementation of Open GL
• Much faster UI performance
• Preview Lighting scenarios within the UI
• Less need for preview renders
• Hardware shading of materials and textures
• Hardware shading of procedural textures
• New Drawing modes and options
LightWave 9.0 fully supports the Open GL 2.0 specification, leveraging the power of the latest graphics cards. New drawing modes provide new ways of interacting with scene objects and meshes, and provide for a faster turnaround of the creative process. Results from real time Open GL shading very closely mirror the results of the LightWave rendering engine, which reduces the amount of test renders that are required. Lighting and materials can be previewed directly within the user interface with a much higher degree of accuracy than ever before.

ThomasHelzle
08-03-2005, 10:08 AM
Zarathustra: Thank you for that post. Good to see someone keeping a clear mind. :thumbsup:

PetterSundnes
08-03-2005, 10:17 AM
I rank this version (9) up there with the likes of Macromedia and their MX 2004 suite, and Adobe with their CS2 suite.

I seriously hope not! Macromedia did not add any requested features to Director's 4 year old 3D engine. I think the list of new features in LightWave 9 is miles ahead any new features added by Macromedia and Adobe to their products the last few years.

PetterSundnes
08-03-2005, 10:31 AM
Thanks Colkai, know I remember what we were talking about :D

This would be VERY cool to see fully implimented, it would be great to see an engines like Maxwell drop into LW for scene renders!

Yeah, I know I've been wishing for this...If it works like it seems to suggest>

Complete Re-implementation of Open GL
• Much faster UI performance
• Preview Lighting scenarios within the UI
• Less need for preview renders
• Hardware shading of materials and textures
• Hardware shading of procedural textures
• New Drawing modes and options
LightWave 9.0 fully supports the Open GL 2.0 specification, leveraging the power of the latest graphics cards. New drawing modes provide new ways of interacting with scene objects and meshes, and provide for a faster turnaround of the creative process. Results from real time Open GL shading very closely mirror the results of the LightWave rendering engine, which reduces the amount of test renders that are required. Lighting and materials can be previewed directly within the user interface with a much higher degree of accuracy than ever before.

That is one of the few features that is interesting me the most. Now, if only Macromedia (or Adobe or whoever owns Director), could update the ShockWave3D engine to match it, then I would be the happiest camper in the world.

I think the OGL2.0 capabilities of LW 9 will increase its use in game companies, and we will be seeing more projects such as Burnout 3 made with LightWave... then again, the choice of 3D apps in a company is often a choice based on what they have been using before in their pipeline, and artists need to adopt to that, rather the other way around. That said, some game companies have changed their pipline totally because of a certain app starting with an x and ending with an i... :) perhaps we will see more of these changes when LW9 is released (not that makes any difference to me personally if it does)

At the moment I am happy with the possibility of creating polygons, adding textures and script it all in a 5 year old 3D engine. Perhaps not all-happy, but atleast it works...

dickma
08-03-2005, 10:53 AM
If the core is completely new developed, I would like to see more about LW 9. Is the feature wishlist still helpful for that?

Like why there is no new light types introduced and improved mentioned? Like shadowmaps avaliable for point lights or shadow opacity available for shadow maps thru transparency objects?

And there is still no deformers and low res model skinning like Max for character rigging.....

The 3D software war starts and yes I am changing my 3d toolsets. Just the LW modeler keeps me for fast modeling...and fprime for fast rendering.

pooby
08-03-2005, 11:27 AM
LW9 sounds like the best Newtek news in a long time

i also have to say that with all the apps out there, i don't fully understand why who doesn't like Lw , doesn't migrate to whatever other app he likes and be happy.

There's Maya, XSI, Max , C4D and also Lux seems doing a great job with Modo.
since in many users visions they all seem to be better than Lw, use them.

I think it's not always the case that people who make seemingly negative remarks dont 'like' lightwave.
I got some flack a while back for 'bashing' lightwave when I was simply highlighting the areas which could be improved in terms of rigging and animation and comparing them to XSI, which is getting it right. ( I sent off lots of requests to Newtek about it too )
I found this flack ridiculous, seeing as i'd much prefer to be able to stick with Lightwave than swap to a much more expensive application. Or have to animate in one and render in another.( if you have to change from LW to a Mental ray render farm, It's very costly indeed)
The 9 features sound impressive in terms of a change for LW. But what I find more encouraging is Newtek actually sharing some sort of a future plan with us.

I think a lot of people have been feeling in the dark for a long period. and as an owner of a studio, The silence is disconcerting.
Not knowing whether you have reason to make the expensive transition to another package now or to hold out and stick with the ideal scenario of Lightwave catching up and excelling.

Newtek are aware of the forums. If some aspect of LW is a sore point then great.

I have the feeling that even with 9, LW's main weakness will still be it's set of modifiers and deformers and their individual rules and quirks. There needs to be a solid unified system, ideally stackable and designed so that anything can read anything.

But I now feel slightly more confident that this will come in time.

INFINITE
08-03-2005, 12:12 PM
This 9 update is great news. Things can only get better and better, I am sick of people going on and on about Newtek and how crap lightwave is etc. I'm sorry but to me Lightwave has always been an amazing app and the future holds great things! Every company I have worked at in my career has let me keep on using Lightwave, I know other apps but still always feel right at home with LW. Sure it needs improvements in some areas but jeeeez..be patient!

Lightwave will be around for a long time yet!

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 12:24 PM
Newtek have a nack for creating great 3D software, They lack the ability to market them properly though :(

Qexit
08-03-2005, 12:32 PM
One thought that sprang to mind, of all the apps I have ever owned only Lightwave has ever actually paid for itself. The paid work I have been able to pick up has all been LW specific and has covered all of my outlay for licenses, upgrades and plugins. I think there is even enough left in the kitty at the moment to buy the advance LW9.0 upgrade now on offer, the Vue5 Inf part is a nice little bonus :deal: So I'm pretty happy about this latest upgrade announcement as I will be thinking of it as a freebie .... regardless of what my bank manager might think :twisted:

Kid-Mesh
08-03-2005, 12:33 PM
Newtek have a nack for creating great 3D software, They lack the ability to market them properly though :(

I guess your right huh? It just makes one wonder how they achieve all those Emmy's :shrug:......Cmon....


Zarathustra - Dude, your alright with me :D

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 12:55 PM
You win emmys nowadays for marketing do you, Thats novel:applause:

Kid-Mesh
08-03-2005, 12:58 PM
My fault...what was I thinking...I guess they found the app while kicking over rocks.

colkai
08-03-2005, 01:26 PM
KidM
I think what NuVu was trying to say is he isn't questioning LW per se, just the way it has been marketed. Yup, it has won a shed-load of Emmys, but marketing is more about getting it "out there" as opposed to work done by it.
At least I think that's what he means.

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 01:42 PM
Yep Colkai
Nail on the head springs to mind

Lightwave is by far and away the best package available for the money, Newteks marketing is the biggest sham in the industry, You can flame all you like but the fact remains that Newtek have serious problems online and in worldwide perception that only they can change.

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 01:43 PM
Ooooh
Just wanted to add that i like the cel shade stuff KM
I need to speak to you privatly about something ;)

Kid-Mesh
08-03-2005, 02:05 PM
History shows that I usually mis-interpert everything...ask my wife :twisted: So excuse me on that.

I guess what I was trying to say is that I assumed showcasing Emmy's won was good marketing too :)


Nu Visual Science - No problem man fire away, Im not as good as Shade01 or Celshader but I will try and answer any inquiry you may have.

Nemoid
08-03-2005, 02:11 PM
there are some things to pay attention too on whats written in feature list. the main thing is that Nt extracted parts of the core, and placed them in a common location both for modeler an layout. this is a step to give for example accessibility to the same functions to both modules, for modelling tools.

in other areas they added to the core new items, like edges, and placed in a common location as well.but here, for example, edges maybe will be not accessible i layourt for now.
they also put inside a new sds algorithm to support ngons and adaptive LOD based on distance from cameras. they reworked cameras too to obtain things like ortho views rendering lens distortions and more. and updated the UI too.


with all this work done, lw 9.0 will be a terribly huge step ahead towards a complete, seamlessly Lw integration, wich will require some more work to do after 9.0 release.
we will notice integration its full when we'll see no more hub for Lw, IMO.

fact is : even more huge features and improvements will come in the 9.x cycle, because it will be based on the core changements they achieved for 9.0 and on some more works they'll continue to do. Nt will not stop developing its app putting their hard work in it like they made so far.

KillMe
08-03-2005, 02:15 PM
hmmm if we can have modeling tools in layout cause its been moved toa common area if you will - then cant we have rendering in modeler? fprime in modeler anyone? certainly for me this would be cool as i'm always wanting to see what my latest change looks like

Qexit
08-03-2005, 02:18 PM
KidM
Yup, it has won a shed-load of Emmys, but marketing is more about getting it "out there" as opposed to work done by it.
At least I think that's what he means.Hehe, in the 3D world marketing is all about using examples of the work that has been done using a particular application, especially when it has won Oscar's and Emmy's, to persuade people that this is the application they should own if they want to achieve similar goals. Emmy's, Oscars and awards are what attract people's attention in the first place not the feature lists. Throwing in some eye-candy images helps a lot, but if they are from a film or TV series that people know and recognise then it makes it so much easier as people can relate to things 'they know'. Newtek have learned a thing or two about PR and are now using their award links to get the Lightwave name 'out there'.

Then again, there is the old adage (sort of ):

Lies, damned lies....and marketing

:rolleyes:

Maxx
08-03-2005, 02:32 PM
twe will notice integration its full when we'll see no more hub for Lw, IMO.
Obviously, I've not seen 9.0, so everything I'm about to say is heresay. But I'm not sure we'll ever be rid of the hub. The direction LW seems to be going right now is a hybrid integrated/separate environment, which sounds like a bit of an oxymoron, but really is the best of both worlds. We've got approximately 50% of the users clamoring for an integrated, 1 app approach to Modeler/Layout, and the other aproximately 50% clamoring to keep the apps separated. So what NT seems to be doing with the 9.0 announcement is catering to both camps - we get modeling tools in layout, but we don't get rid of the modeler application. This follows - to my mind anyway - that we'll stil need a way to get the model (and any modeler-born changes made to the mesh) to Layout, hence the continued need for the hub.

Personally, I think it's brilliant move if they can pull it off seamlessly - it's the only "win" way out of a situation that is most likely to inflame half the user base, regardless of development direction. ie, integration of the applications will irritate the separatists. However, stay separate and you've "ignored" the camp that's been crying for integration. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Unless you adopt a hybrid model, which certainly seems to be what they've done.

I agree with the "wait and see" subscribers of this thread - we will have to wait to see. That doesn't mean, however, that we can't wait with baited breath :twisted:. 'Cause seriously, the roadmap and feature list are awesome!

assistant pimp
08-03-2005, 04:12 PM
I seriously hope not! Macromedia did not add any requested features to Director's 4 year old 3D engine. I think the list of new features in LightWave 9 is miles ahead any new features added by Macromedia and Adobe to their products the last few years.

Not to dilute the topic, but you will never please everyone.....But out of the 5 or so flagship programs you chose director which is barely hangin on for its life. But I cannot comment on Director. But the rest showed outstanding features..

Back to topic-
I doubt there will ever be a program that pleases everyone and everyone is entitled to a opinion, but I admire Newteks commitment to LW. This news no longer makes me feel like I chose the wrong program to break into 3d with. I was seriously looking to go else where and almost sold my LW. But I think I will stick aorund now. They stirred the pot enough to get the nay-sayers and faithfuls aroused so I know this is going to be good.

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 04:22 PM
Lightwave allows me to work on my film, No other package would let me do that and then buy a few extra CPUs to render on without contacting the company to upgrade, The ammount of built in stuff still puts most other packjages to shame but because they have been there that long they are taken for granted.

I'm glad to be a Waver but i am not happy that they are releasing info and demoing the future of LW to the elite few who are able or even want to go to Sillygraph, This info should be made available to all lightwave users.

Think about all the users of 3dmax or Maya or XSI who have seen LW9 and we haven't just because they can go to Sillygraph, Now think about all the hype that could be generated online with the Vids being available, Too late in a couple of days hype season is over trhen and we all get back on with whatever it is we do.

mocaw
08-03-2005, 04:24 PM
I'd say one of the biggest features with the new team is that they are TALKING about what they want to do. They aren't shy of the words "goals" and "roadmap". Maybe it's just marketing, but the interview was great and meant a lot more to me than the feature list. They are doing what I always wanted them to do- make Layout and Modeler the "shell" of a more flexable and modular system.

On the modeler/layout only side: I've wanted them intergrated, but somehow seperate when you need to. This seems to address it well. In XSI you can have a million people on a scene, and set up one (or more) window/viewport to only a local view of the model(s) you select in a scene so that from there you can "focus" on that model. This is something I've wanted in LW for some time, and it has almost the same effect as being in modeler when you're in that window. I'm hope'n that Layouts modeler "mode" works the same. It would be so nice to have that viewport selected and have your tool set be mainly modeler, and then when you select a Layout viewport have it change back mainly to Layout. Since LW is so ctrl key driven I think this would be the way to go. Even XSI doesn't have that! Make the timeline for modeler one big endomorph slider and you've got animated modeling!

Nemoid
08-03-2005, 04:24 PM
Well, yeah they're handling the current situation like this. for now, because this is the point where they arrived working on the core.
but an hybrid solution will work only for awhile. for example with people asking for render in modeler... ??? LOL :)

there's no reason not to go for an integrated environment. it only brings advantages.
program structure and its appearence on the screen have not to be confused. they're not the same thing.

the UI and workflow could be totally like now, (with no need to send objects anywhere and no hub BTW) yet the app could be one, sharing all things common. so users could choose how to work, if in the old linear way, adviceable in many cases to keep things organized or in new ways : lights and timeline and render in modeler, selections in layout .... :)

this will not be possible in 9.0 at its start, but to me the direction Nt is taking is this. no complete UI overhaul in look,(good things like text buttons have to be kept at least into the out of the box version) but possibility for everyone to work how they want.with tools where they need.
this of course means customizability , a thing wich is there right now.
look at apps like maya. when i want to visualize the timeline, i'll open the timeline panel. here it is, even if i was in the modelling environment. because this is just how the app is organized. but tools are all there.

so. into a fully integrated lw, while i am in modeler i could simply hit a shortcut and make appear the timeline. i could design a layout with all modelling tools in layout if i'd want. or better, the ones i find useful when animating. and so on.

IMO all these things will be possible within not so much time after 9.0 release. so many thanx to Nt team for these huge steps ahead and for their hard work. :)

vonbon
08-03-2005, 04:31 PM
:arteest: :drool: :cry: :banghead: :buttrock: :love: :eek: :scream: :twisted: :bounce:
I think we all make a great team.

GROUP HUG EVERYBODY!

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 04:40 PM
No complete UI overhaul:) i guess you haven't seen the buttons made out of flames pic then ?

You can use images as buttons in 9 :thumbsup:

Also i think it is unwise to think that a renderer in modeller isnt possible even in 9, That is after all the whole point of making the system modular, Once the modelling tools are in modules and outside of any app specific code the modeller becomes just an executable shell to run that module, If the renderer is outside the app specific code too (Already in 8.3) then there is no reason why any executable shell couldn't be used to run that renderer.

In fact if you were a clever enough coder you could target LWs render engine right now without ever opening Layout.

The fact of the matter is that Lightwave NEVER has to be a single app and NEVER has to be multiple apps, It will always be the users choice, This i think is the path that the new dev team has decided on, This has the side effect of making developing LW in future years a lot easier because a particular module can be updated without effecting any other code.

Nemoid
08-03-2005, 04:56 PM
No complete UI overhaul:) i guess you haven't seen the buttons made out of flames pic then ?

You can use images as buttons in 9 :thumbsup:

Also i think it is unwise to think that a renderer in modeller isnt possible even in 9, That is after all the whole point of making the system modular, Once the modelling tools are in modules and outside of any app specific code the modeller becomes just an executable shell to run that module, If the renderer is outside the app specific code too (Already in 8.3) then there is no reason why any executable shell couldn't be used to run that renderer.

In fact if you were a clever enough coder you could target LWs render engine right now without ever opening Layout.


The fact of the matter is that Lightwave NEVER has to be a single app and NEVER has to be multiple apps, It will always be the users choice, This i think is the path that the new dev team has decided on, This has the side effect of making developing LW in future years a lot easier because a particular module can be updated without effecting any other code.

yep i saw that cool image. this means good customizability for the user. they'll be able to put in buttons what colors or image they want to. when i'm talking of no complete overhaul, i'm rather talking about UI general organization.. buttons on a side, panels, and general workflow mantained, even if greatly enhanced. no complete overhaul means that Lw users will feel at home when opening lw 9.0 as well.at least with the look Nt will sell out of the box.

i keep thinking the same for rendering so far. but i could be plain wrong. they put rendering view in viewports tho, wich is a fantastic thing. BTW also rendering engine could have been put into its separate module/place. cool thing.

i have really no worries. all toolset will be common and the app one
really sooner than expected. :buttrock:

Nu Visual Science
08-03-2005, 05:09 PM
I think 9 has a lot of surprises for all of us, Modular app creation is all the rage and what most newer devs are aspiring to, I actually believe that once this is in place completly that all other packages will then be playing catch up (Unless they have a modular creation platform too)

threedeworks
08-03-2005, 05:56 PM
tuff little unit apparently did some website updating recently, and you can find some interesting docs about the upcoming new goodies for LW9!

http://www.tufflittleunit.com/

go to the 'products' menu and download the PDFs... looks like we are going to see very cool stuff ;)

markus

cyphyr
08-03-2005, 06:02 PM
I cant find my coolfriends newsletter now but I'm sure I remember a mention that this year Newtek was going to have live streaming from their booth at Siggraph. Am I mistaken (err cirtainly not the first time) or is this still to come later in the week.
Also any further news about LW8.5 such as a release date?
cyphyr

evenflcw
08-03-2005, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the headsup 3dworks! Definatly gonna check that out!

cyphyr, NT has explicitly said that they will NOT be streaming live this year. They will still be recording at the show, but instead of streaming live, they will put clips online for download.

LW9 looks good. Not much in the way of reworked motion core which I would've liked to see, but there's certainly alot of other things to be happy about, including the lower price. :)

EDIT:Are tufflittleunit hinting at instances in their siggraph PR-letter or are they just wacky, or both?

NanoGator
08-03-2005, 06:13 PM
I cant find my coolfriends newsletter now but I'm sure I remember a mention that this year Newtek was going to have live streaming from their booth at Siggraph. Am I mistaken (err cirtainly not the first time) or is this still to come later in the week.
Also any further news about LW8.5 such as a release date?
cyphyr

I asked about that yesterday. They mentioned that what they're doing this time is making the whole vids available as a download, as opposed to streaming. :)

Sil3
08-03-2005, 07:00 PM
Didn´t saw this yet (might already being asked/answered), does LW9 Layout has multiple UNDOS on everything, or is it like in the present LW state?

Just curious.

adrencg
08-05-2005, 03:04 PM
I was playing with 9.0 64bit at the AMD booth, and was blown away by the speed. I draped a high res cloth over a high res character at almost realtime speed. Granted, this was on a quad dual core computer, but I believe only 2 threads can be used for CLothfx(all 8 threads can be used for rendering, of course).

Anyone know if the modeling functions in Layout will be keyframe-able or will this be another cool feature with a caveat?
Mike

Nemoid
08-05-2005, 03:33 PM
I was playing with 9.0 64bit at the AMD booth, and was blown away by the speed. I draped a high res cloth over a high res character at almost realtime speed. Granted, this was on a quad dual core computer, but I believe only 2 threads can be used for CLothfx(all 8 threads can be used for rendering, of course).

Anyone know if the modeling functions in Layout will be keyframe-able or will this be another cool feature with a caveat?
Mike

well i hope modelling will be animatable for sure.. could you eleborate more on your impressions ? did you tried some of the new features and how they work?

plotz
08-05-2005, 03:34 PM
This may have already been mentioned. Under the "Products" section of the LW3D site they have some additional info on the new features that will be in v. 9.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9featureprelim.php

adrencg
08-05-2005, 03:41 PM
well i hope modelling will be animatable for sure.. could you eleborate more on your impressions ? did you tried some of the new features and how they work?

I wasn't really interested in anything new except pure SPEED. I'm kind of tired of new gadgets that don't really have any practical use (IkBoost). I'm just looking for speed and stabilty to use the tools I currently favor.

I saw people playing with the subpixel displacement(which was amazing...can't explain here, but look into it).

The radiosity rendering speed increase was incredible compared to what it used to be(I use Fprime with pretty good results now). I saw some nodal shader action, but it didn't really interest me much.

Mike

crpcory
08-05-2005, 04:46 PM
Significant Radiosity speed increases, now thats what i'm talking about. It's fairly frustrating when new features arrive but are so difficult or time consuming you never actually end up using them (i refuse to take time to learn how to master 'faking' radiosity hah). It seems like NewTek is doing a good job and making their features practical and usable, the few LW9 demos i saw on newtektv looked promising.

The Speed increase along with adaptive Sub-D and full VUE integration by the end of the year makes me think i'm going to be getting a lot more ambitious with my scenes (vue is new to me but seems to have very handy possibilities...fast and creation but the rendering seems a bit on the slow side..but with (vue)Fusion in a few months, that may not matter).

On a side note, since they make Tech and are not a design/procuction facility this isn't that big of a deal but man, some times NekTek has some pretty cheesy and outdated looking style (albeit produced with quality). I'm not suggesting doing the cliched 'MTV' look (i hate that term), just being a wee bit classier and (sorry, i hate this term too)sexier. (i.e. the LW7 box i remember being pretty slick)

Regardless, NewTek is rocking out right now and i'm feeling good.

ages
08-05-2005, 04:49 PM
ftp://ftp2.maxon.net/pub/r95/audirendercomp.mov

mocaw
08-05-2005, 05:15 PM
ftp://ftp2.maxon.net/pub/r95/audirendercomp.mov

Well that would be a great car if it didn't look like it was rendered in 1995! Sorry...has to look real to sell. Fprime will do a raytrace render in basicly that time already- XSI 4.2 will do a render in almost that time with HDRI BG radiosity lighting in a render region. Lightwave WILL be doing a render of that quaility either faster or as fast w/ version 9. Hell the realtime shaders will do that! They've modestly stated a 2.5X increase in speed, but many at Newtek say on average it is more like 3-4X by the release.

Sorry...that render just looks like crap. Show me one that looks either almost "real" or real at that time and I'll sit up. Sorry...I've seen real time lighting that looks better...

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 05:37 PM
Vue's render speed is incredible, Some may say its slow but when you are rendering billions of polygons it is totally unbelievable, It can seem slow at first but the speed gains are only shown on complete scenes and cant be shown on a little toying around :)

richcz3
08-05-2005, 06:05 PM
Nu Visual Science - Here's some tests I did in Vue 5 Inf when it was first released.
Vue render reduction LINK
(http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=242188)
Lightwave model import> TEST_Movie_Clip (http://www.digitalworks.8m.com/movies/Tests/Vue_640xTest_05_01.wmv) <
Vue does render an insane amount of polys with decent render times. It still needs work on importing LW models and its AA routines need some work. Having watched the NT TV footage its good to see that Vue/LW will be better integrated together.

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 06:20 PM
I honestly dont think they have any choice, There will be that many Vue users who use Lightwave the onus is on them to get it perfect really, Which is great for us.

Sequent
08-05-2005, 07:10 PM
I just ordered LW9/Vue today... so add another one to the Vue users cue.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Fusion. I hope it won't be too expensive.

Since we're talking about speed... that was one of the things that got me excited when it was announced that Jay Roth was on board. I seem to remember that for a while Electric Image had the reputation for having the fastest renderer?

richcz3
08-05-2005, 07:12 PM
I honestly dont think they have any choice, There will be that many Vue users who use Lightwave the onus is on them to get it perfect really, Which is great for us. Yeah I posted as much on E-Ons Vue Inf forums. :eek:
That being said E-On is really agressive about coming out with patches. There must have been 5 already since I received the program back a few months back. I imagine that by the time LW9 comes out, things should be really solid. :thumbsup:

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 07:19 PM
I just ordered LW9/Vue today... so add another one to the Vue users cue.

It will be interesting to see what they do with Fusion. I hope it won't be too expensive.

Since we're talking about speed... that was one of the things that got me excited when it was announced that Jay Roth was on board. I seem to remember that for a while Electric Image had the reputation for having the fastest renderer?

Believe it or not his code was that good that although it has had few upgrades since (V6 about a month or two ago) it is still the fastest renderer available.

crpcory
08-05-2005, 07:58 PM
Did i say slow? ;)
My work in 3D is almost always animated, so render times for me can't be anywhere near an hour, and the few tests i did were at least half an hour or over, not slow but not really fast either, but i see that quality settings can be tweaked to much avail (thanks richcz). But yes, i'm new to Vue still and very optimistic about the vue/LW future.

I ordered the update two days ago so i guess i won't be so much in the dark soon enough.

I'm curious about fusion pricing too, it seems like soemthing that could be included with infinite, but who knows.

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 08:09 PM
Yeah Vues pricing structure can seem strange but it is normally like this
If you buy Infinite you get everything included
If you buy Pro then you have to buy add ons Mover and so on

So i would guess Fusion would be part of this ideal too, But EON could change that and charge us for Fusion.

zuzzabuzz
08-05-2005, 08:31 PM
Are you guys talking about Digital Fusion from eyeon software? I don't think there is any Fusion from e-on.

Nu Visual Science
08-05-2005, 08:37 PM
Fusion from EON is a plugin to load and render ecosystems and everything else in Vue inside the host (LW XSI Maya whatever) , It will be available for LW at a similar sort of time to 9.

richcz3
08-05-2005, 08:39 PM
zuzz - E-On is making a product called Fusion. LINK (http://e-onsoftware.com/Press/PR.php?date=July%2022,%202005)
It will work with Maya and Max first with Lightwave and C4D to follow.
What I would like to know is if the Fusion app will be made available to those who upgraded to LW9/Vue 5 Inf. Demo on the NewTek TV spot doesn't say one way or the other.

userBrian
08-07-2005, 10:27 AM
This new version 9 will be awesome. I'm surprised Lightwave didn't have OOP.
Do Max and Maya and XSI and others? From the little game programing I've done
it's clear that putting the code into tight engine rooms makes accessing for changes
and increased logic absolutely necessary if you want to constantly improve. Whew.
And having the modeler in layout also allows greater and quicker changes to the characters
and their changing environments and buildings because of direct access and relative
comparisons to all distances in the layout view. I'm an experimenter and got complimented
for how quickly I can crash a program simply because I go to lots of different sections and bring them together. I've just started to rig my character, so I need to upgrade soon,
and it will be nice to play in 9.

richcz3
08-07-2005, 06:05 PM
From what I've read so far, the modeling tools in Layout are a limited set with area selection being worked on. Nonetheless it is great to have some modeling tools integrated in Layout.
It would be great if NewTek would make a breakdown of the information previewed at the show and post it real soon. Like before Net interpretation (interpretations/expectations) of features takes its toll on the final delivered product.

JMarc
08-08-2005, 02:21 AM
I was told at Siggraph that at this point only tools that affect the whole object are available in Layout. There were only two tools available in the Beta version that I got to play with. The only one I remember is Move Pivot Point.

There currently is no way to select points or polys.

Jean Marc Rodrigue

Karmacop
08-08-2005, 03:04 AM
This new version 9 will be awesome. I'm surprised Lightwave didn't have OOP.


objects oriented programming? It does as far as I know.

pelos
08-08-2005, 06:05 AM
is there an enchanment on cartoon render? difrent styles like poser can do? like scethc style and others....
what can you use of e-on vue5 on LW? (if you remember ozone you can get some backgrounds to LW and animate like clouds and stuff like that)

any implementation on UV mapping? i mean something like mapping in maya? that you can actualy see the cylinder that will map a leg as an example.

and what will be the SDK for 3partys ( i remember that worly when Fprime came out, that he was going to work with lw to make this a better place for all =) (or i am wrong? i dont remember very well)

when is LW9 suppouse to come out?

Nu Visual Science
08-08-2005, 07:26 PM
Pelos
Sketch from TLU is included in 9 and may even be intergrated but thats doubtful.

michaeli
08-09-2005, 02:27 AM
Well that would be a great car if it didn't look like it was rendered in 1995! Sorry...has to look real to sell. Fprime will do a raytrace render in basicly that time already- XSI 4.2 will do a render in almost that time with HDRI BG radiosity lighting in a render region. Lightwave WILL be doing a render of that quaility either faster or as fast w/ version 9. Hell the realtime shaders will do that! They've modestly stated a 2.5X increase in speed, but many at Newtek say on average it is more like 3-4X by the release.

...

The focus of that video is speed but not quality and you should know that the scene demoed in that video turns on the raytraced areashow and blur-reflection, both are very slow effect in any raytracer........

Orkman
08-09-2005, 05:38 AM
Does the 64bit 8.5 upgrade work for the MAC as well? I saw comments on Windows boxes...are we MAC users out of luck?

Thanks.

mlmiller1983
08-09-2005, 06:14 AM
I hope eventually Lightwave will play nice with After Effects they way Cinema 4D does(as well as other compositing applications).

mocaw
08-09-2005, 07:15 AM
The focus of that video is speed but not quality and you should know that the scene demoed in that video turns on the raytraced areashow and blur-reflection, both are very slow effect in any raytracer........

And your point is what? This is about LW9, not C4D. If I wanted another application C4D would be the last on my list- sorry. I like to stay employed. Would you like those of us who use LW, XSI, MAYA etc to come post in your list? Too bad you don't have a little clip of how poor C4D can be to animate in and do scripting/expressions when compared to some applicatons!

And no- soft shadows aren't really that slow in many applications, nor is reflection blur always really slow- only in LW 8 and earlier. The mater still stands that those are some of the worst looking demo videos this side of worley's Fprime demos!

Oh and please post those videos you have comparing it to LW9 renders since you seem to already own LW9 and know how fast it is...

mocaw
08-09-2005, 07:19 AM
Does the 64bit 8.5 upgrade work for the MAC as well? I saw comments on Windows boxes...are we MAC users out of luck?

Thanks.

Your chip is 64bit, but your OS is only partly. That's where the problem is isn't it? That and I think NewTek is going to hold out for the Mactel chips...

Beamtracer
08-09-2005, 07:31 AM
Does the 64bit 8.5 upgrade work for the MAC as well?
Just a piece of trivia... Did you know that Apple's 'Motion' (compositing app) can the full 8 gigs of RAM on a G5 workstation? It just shows it can be done :)

Phyrea
08-09-2005, 07:48 AM
Does the 64bit 8.5 upgrade work for the MAC as well? I saw comments on Windows boxes...are we MAC users out of luck?

Thanks.
NewTek has stated that when OSX is fully 64-bit (as WinXP 64-bit is) then they will release a 64-bit edition for OSX. As Mocaw said, currently OSX is only partially 64-bit even if your G5 hardware is ready. Thus Apple Motion can access 8 gigs of RAM as Beam noted, however being 64-bit is more than just accessing additional RAM (and if it were fully 64-bit it would be able to access a lot more than 8 gigs of RAM: the test setup that they used for WinXP 64 had 32 gigs of RAM).

Very soon (hopefully)!

mlmiller1983
08-09-2005, 03:20 PM
And your point is what? This is about LW9, not C4D. If I wanted another application C4D would be the last on my list- sorry. I like to stay employed. Would you like those of us who use LW, XSI, MAYA etc to come post in your list? Too bad you don't have a little clip of how poor C4D can be to animate in and do scripting/expressions when compared to some applicatons!

Why you gotta be C4D hater? LOL.

michaeli
08-09-2005, 03:44 PM
If I wanted another application C4D would be the last on my list.
...

Thank you and I'm so glad to hear that. :)

PetterSundnes
08-09-2005, 03:55 PM
What do you guys think of that OpenGL 2.0 feature of LW 9.0, I really look forward to that one...

Click the mysterious smiley >>> :deal: (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=162171) <<<

mlmiller1983
08-09-2005, 03:59 PM
What do you guys think of that OpenGL 2.0 feature of LW 9.0, I really look forward to that one...

Click the mysterious smiley >>> :deal: (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=162171) <<<

I think its good. Better OpenGl implemention was something LWers have been asking for.

Srek
08-09-2005, 04:33 PM
Just a piece of trivia... Did you know that Apple's 'Motion' (compositing app) can the full 8 gigs of RAM on a G5 workstation? It just shows it can be done :)

Yes, i heard that too. I'm a bit surprised though that Apple does not advertise this like they usualy do (maybe for a reason). From what i know the 64 Bit support in motion only applies to caching of data, the main program is still 32 Bit.
Newtek faces the same problem as Maxon when it comes to OS X and 64 Bit, to comply with Apples partial support the application would have to be rewritten in large parts if not completely and would require a completely seperate codebase. This is simply not an option if you take into account that it can only be a temporary solution.
Currently only a Windows or Linux version can be done fully in 64 Bit without extreme (and financialy not justified) effort.
Cheers
Björn

mocaw
08-09-2005, 05:33 PM
Thank you and I'm so glad to hear that.

Hey I'm not trying to be a jerk, it's just that between XSI and Lightwave I have very little reason to use C4D. The toon shader modual is the best in C4D IMHO. If I did a lot of toon work then point oven and C4D with the toon mod would be a dream come true.

Hey, I'm a 'waver at heart...so I defend the LW turf at times in childish and strange ways!:)

Besides, we don't need to see a car at 320x240 resolution getting rendered quickly. We need to see it being rendered quickly at print resolution, with several buildings, people, trees, a parking lot full of other cars, volumetric sky, and at least BG GI. I think it's scenes like that people are looking to get all hyped about when it comes to render times.

RobertoOrtiz
08-09-2005, 07:00 PM
Guys lets get back on topic.


-R

Kid-Mesh
08-09-2005, 07:10 PM
Pelos
Sketch from TLU is included in 9 and may even be intergrated but thats doubtful.

What is TLU?

monovich
08-09-2005, 07:12 PM
I hope eventually Lightwave will play nice with After Effects they way Cinema 4D does(as well as other compositing applications).

Lightwave does play pretty nice with AE. It may not be as easy as Cinema (we don't use Cinema), but what you can do with LW and AE as-is is quite powerful. If you haven't already seen the recent thread on it, you might want to check it out.

anobrin
08-09-2005, 07:22 PM
Nope it ain't crippled, and nope - you ain't dumb. :p

Ohh trust me ,get the free Vue5 infinate and go over to renderosity.com and offer it for $200 USD and watch how fast
its grabbed from you
:D

Maxx
08-09-2005, 07:25 PM
What is TLU?
Tough Little Unit - looks like NT integrated their line of plug-ins for 9. Which sounds awesome to me! Well concieved and developed plug-ins made stronger by integration directly into the core of LW? I'm ok with that!

Now, if we could just get 8.5 out the door to make the short wait until 9.0 more bearable... :D

PetterSundnes
08-09-2005, 08:14 PM
Tough Little Unit - looks like NT integrated their line of plug-ins for 9. Which sounds awesome to me! Well concieved and developed plug-ins made stronger by integration directly into the core of LW? I'm ok with that!

Speaking of adding plugins to LW, anyone else here wanting to see the light (render) and displacement baker Microwave from Evasion3D included too? I am definately all for :) It is lightyears ahead of LW's own Baker.

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