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LW3D
08-01-2005, 01:49 PM
Introducing SOFTIMAGE|XSI v.5.0, the digital character software designed with a gigapolygon core to handle ten times the detail for next-generation productions and take full advantage of 64-bit platforms.

Acclaimed for its ease of use, XSI v5.0 introduces a comprehensive set of migration tools for Maya users. New interface layouts and navigation modes let artists transfer their existing skills and muscle memory to XSI, and migrate in days, not weeks.

Going far beyond normal maps, XSI v.5.0 introduces “Ultimapper” for film-quality effect maps with a single-click workflow. Ultimapper generates normal, ambient occlusion, difference, parallax, light, and albedo maps from arbitrarily complex models using the full power and cinematic quality of mental ray rendering.

A core component at the heart of Avid Computer Graphics solutions, XSI v.5.0 allows 3-D art teams to achieve richer results more quickly. Combined with Alienbrain® Studio, the scalable asset management system and powerful Avid editing and compositing workstations, the flexibility of Avid Computer Graphics solutions make it easier and more affordable to bring order to complicated creative workflows.


http://www.softimage.com/Products/Xsi/v5/default.asp

LW3D
08-01-2005, 02:10 PM
SoftImage also presented as a technology preview at SIGGRAPH 2005, Face Robot™ provides artists with the tools to produce lifelike facial animation and digital acting with emotion and depth.

SOFTIMAGE®|FACE ROBOT™ allows 3-D artists to achieve realistic, lifelike facial animation for high-end film, post and games projects. Based on extensive anatomical research, Face Robot™ uses a groundbreaking new computer model of the soft tissue of the face to mimic the full range of human emotion. Designed with input from leading animation experts, Face Robot™ gives artists an intuitive way to interact with their characters while providing control over details like wrinkles, frowns, flaring nostrils and bulging neck muscles.

Face Robot™ supports both keyframe animation and motion capture, the primary techniques used for digital acting today. The soft tissue model at the core of the Face Robot™ technology removes the need to manually create dozens or even hundreds of 3-D shapes for different facial expressions and allows animators to work with an optimal number of control points. Keyframe animators can gain very direct, intuitive access to facial expressions, while motion capture animators can work with fewer markers to reduce setup and cleanup time.

With dedicated facial animation technology, Softimage enters a new category that complements the advanced SOFTIMAGE®|XSI® animation system. Face Robot™ removes the barriers to believable digital acting, allowing the 3-D community to fulfill their creative imagination.

more information and demo videos (http://www.softimage.com/Products/face_robot/default.asp)

Pilchard
08-01-2005, 02:16 PM
sweeet candy! :)

also worth noting the recent announcments of max 8 and maya 7.


Rock on! ;)


This image does my head in too! hehe! :)
http://www.softimage.com/Products/Xsi/v5/features/media/Maya_Migration.jpg (http://www.softimage.com/Products/Xsi/v5/features/media/Maya_Migration.jpg)

animateddave
08-01-2005, 02:32 PM
Wow, sounds great. The only hard thing about going from maya to xsi is the alt = s.

lightblitter22
08-01-2005, 02:37 PM
This one looks like the strongest release out of the ones announced at this year's Siggraph so far to me. That's four out of the big five 3D apps down, one left to go. Where's Maxon? :) Bet they're cooking something nice as well.

michaeli
08-01-2005, 02:41 PM
Where's Maxon? :) Bet they're cooking something nice as well.

I'm sure Maxon always the best. :)

samartin
08-01-2005, 02:41 PM
I wonder why the videos have been taken down? Maybe not quite polished enough? The facial animation was well sweet but the neck muscles were a bit dodgy, didn't quite finish watching them all but hey I can't wait for the new vids to go up...

Ollarin
08-01-2005, 02:41 PM
The QWERTY and alt feature is awesome! Maybe i can finally get a grip on XSI without hitting the wrong buttons. :p

Wonder when a "PLE" version of 5 will be out...

Spacelord
08-01-2005, 02:48 PM
woo hoo, I've been clicking the Softimage website for days now !!!
I can finally read whats new.

marinobambino
08-01-2005, 02:49 PM
This update is mainly focused on getting Maya people to use XSI. The complete interface can be transformed into Maya. Understandable update, but for people already using XSI this update seems a bit lame... Sure there are some improvements like the new bezier curve editting tool (stolen from Max)... And the improved rigidbody system... It's an OK update, but I realy hoped they integrated a facialrig or muscle system into it... well, maybe version 6
Cheers

WesComan
08-01-2005, 02:51 PM
This update is mainly focused on getting Maya people to use XSI. The complete interface can be transformed into Maya. Understandable update, but for people already using XSI this update seems a bit lame... Sure there are some improvements like the new bezier curve editting tool (stolen from Max)... And the improved rigidbody system... It's an OK update, but I realy hoped they integrated a facialrig or muscle system into it... well, maybe version 6
Cheers

I take it you haven't seen the new GATOR feature, I wouldn't exactly call that lame! :)

dmonk
08-01-2005, 02:54 PM
This update is mainly focused on getting Maya people to use XSI. The complete interface can be transformed into Maya. Understandable update, but for people already using XSI this update seems a bit lame... Sure there are some improvements like the new bezier curve editting tool (stolen from Max)... And the improved rigidbody system... It's an OK update, but I realy hoped they integrated a facialrig or muscle system into it... well, maybe version 6
Cheers

Did I miss something?

Gigapolygon Core
Allows for massive scenes and objects to be loaded, managed and rendered. The gigapolygon core means when you can load it into XSI - you can render it.

GATOR
Never start from scratch again. The all-purpose General Attribute Transfer Operator (“GATOR”) that automagically propagates all surface properties and attributes between different objects.

Shape Manager
A dedicated UI for all morph shape creation, editing and animation. Extremely fast and allows easy editing of original shapes.

Parameter Connection Editor
A powerful editor to create links between objects and parameters, making it easy to create and edit linked parameters.

Migration Tools for Maya Users
Get up and running in a matter of minutes, not hours, with new and easy-to-use migration tools.

XSI Rendering
XSI's uses mental ray v.3.4 as its native renderer, which means you can easily produce stunning images with XSI’s rendering controls, including new Ambient Occlusion and fast Sub Surface Scattering shaders.

Pass Channels
Automatically generate standard or custom rendered channels such as specular or reflections. Easily speed up your rendering pipeline without being a TD.

Ultimapper
Create cinematic-quality normal maps and effects maps from high-resolution models in just a few clicks.

Import Options for ZBrush
New, dedicated options to handle the most complex ZBrush geometries.

XSI Game Example & dotXSI 5.0
Example game for all developers showing how XSI easily integrates into any games pipeline.

Tools Development Environment
A TD’s dream come true. A single, unified development environment to easily create, manage and deploy all tools, plugins and workgroups.

Rigid Body Physics
Interact with thousands of collisions while simulating, with new Ageia™ NovodeX physics simulation. Incredibly fast, stable, accurate and predictable

Hair Instancing and Styling
The industry's leading hair and fur solution. Perfectly straightforward, predictable and easy to render.

Bezier Curves
Easy curve creation, manipulation and geometry generation.

Tweak Tool
Wonderful workflow for all-in-one freeform component manipulation. Intuitive, proportional, fast and friendly - just use the “M” key.

Emboss Geometry
Emboss geometry using images for a quick alternative to displacements.

Texture Swimming
Maintain your original projection when editing geometry without suffering any texture distortion.

Keying Panel
The one place to set and edit multiple parameters to keyframe. Allows you to define, expose or key multiple parameters at once. Setting keyframes has never been easier.

Timeline Dopesheet
Cut\Copy\Paste\Merge\Scale\Ripple\Replace keys directly on the timeline, for fast and easy animation creation.

How is this a lame update?

Pilchard
08-01-2005, 02:58 PM
This does look the strongest of the "big guns" updates that we've seen. Especially looking at the vids, http://www.softimage.com/Products/Xsi/v5/nfvt/default.asp

Can't wait, and I just installed windows x64 too! YAY!

lightblitter22
08-01-2005, 02:58 PM
The Novodex physics library is pretty amazing, multithreaded and everything. Does the inclusion in XSI mean that XSI can take advantage of those new PPU physics accelerator chips as well? That sounds like a pretty sweet thing to have if it does work with the new physics accelerator boards.

mr-doOo
08-01-2005, 02:59 PM
the new bezier curve editting tool (stolen from Max)
Cheers

Pffff.... and max stole them from illustrator...
and 10 years ago SI3d already had bezier curves...

Zendorf
08-01-2005, 03:04 PM
Lame is the last thing I would call this update! I just want some more details :wise:

A new timeline, new physics engine , a comprehensive tweak tool, a connection editor, new shape manager, zbrush import options, MR 3.4 with the new AO and fast sss shaders, all drool worthy....
I am hanging for details on the features that have me intrigued....such as gator and the emboss tool? I am dialup and alas can't checkout the videos.

Also the new Maya navigation is fantastic news to those of us trained on Maya or Cinema4d!

Sounds like Softimage has really been listening to users.....

sebek27
08-01-2005, 03:09 PM
Also the new Maya navigation is fantastic news to those of us trained on Maya or Cinema4d!

hmm i don't get how this is so fantastic, i think you can hold the S key instead of alt and navigate ? so how hard is it to use S instead of Alt ..

GordaN
08-01-2005, 03:11 PM
That's what i call a MAJOR update!

Now XSI have everithing i miss... fantastic! Maybe it's time to switch :)

marinobambino
08-01-2005, 03:13 PM
ok, my reply might have sounded a bit too disappointed. Maybe it was that teaser movie that raised my expectations a bit too much. It's a cool update and compared to the competition it's an ever cooler update. But still I was hoping for something like a hypershade-like editor (editting multiple materialnodes in 1 view!), or nodebased particlesystem. But I still love XSI!

pichoo
08-01-2005, 03:13 PM
Cut\Copy\Paste\Merge\Scale\Ripple\Replace keys directly on the timeline, for fast and easy animation creation.

Does that mean that we can see the keyframe mark on the timeline already now?

AdrianLazar
08-01-2005, 03:14 PM
:cry: <- happines tears

shingo
08-01-2005, 03:21 PM
Gareth Morgan (3D Product manager) mentioned on XSIbase that a particle overhaul will be out around Xmas.

ok, my reply might have sounded a bit too disappointed. Maybe it was that teaser movie that raised my expectations a bit too much. It's a cool update and compared to the competition it's an ever cooler update. But still I was hoping for something like a hypershade-like editor (editting multiple materialnodes in 1 view!), or nodebased particlesystem. But I still love XSI!

SheepFactory
08-01-2005, 03:29 PM
best update ever. they adressed everything that i asked for.

tuna
08-01-2005, 03:32 PM
ok, my reply might have sounded a bit too disappointed. Maybe it was that teaser movie that raised my expectations a bit too much. It's a cool update and compared to the competition it's an ever cooler update. But still I was hoping for something like a hypershade-like editor (editting multiple materialnodes in 1 view!), or nodebased particlesystem. But I still love XSI!

I suppose they cant amaze every single type of user in one release, but dont think you've been forgotten. As I animate mostly, the new timeline and shape manager and all sorts of other improvements look really really cool to me, wereas improvements to the rendertree, or particles probably wouldnt amaze me so much.

StephanD
08-01-2005, 03:32 PM
I would've liked to see a Virtual Mirror tool ala wings3D or Modo's symmetry.

Sounds great otherwise.

belail
08-01-2005, 03:35 PM
Damn, looks like there's some good stuff there. That Gator thing sounds intriguing but it seems like I might have to miss out if I stick with Foundation (stupid tiny wallet).

Here's a question that popped into my head straight away. Does the new version have a greater amount of import options? I'm mainly wondering about .dwg files and the like which I've always had to convert to something else using a seperate program. I see there's mention of Zbrush imports so I'm hoping there's more.

SheepFactory
08-01-2005, 03:39 PM
Did they mention if there is a upgrade path for foundation? or do we have to buy a new copy?

i couldnt find it on the site.

StephanD
08-01-2005, 03:40 PM
Did they mention if there is a upgrade path for foundation? or do we have to buy a new copy?

i couldnt find it on the site.


There is...

Here (http://www.softimage.com/home/Promo/v5_upgrade/default.asp)

AmbiDextrose
08-01-2005, 03:44 PM
Whoa! They brought back the bezier tools! And they have a true slide function to boot! I wonder if slide will work with partial loops and other elements (e.g. vertices). I'm surprised they lumped it all in the tweak tool but I guess the grouping makes sense. I especially liked how scaling a point (presumably with soft selection turned on) slides all the other components around it. Now all that's missing is a spin and thickness/shell tool (available as scripts but I'd rather have them built-in).

Oh, and the keyframe editor is absolutely awesome. Guess I'll be picking this up :D.

dmonk
08-01-2005, 03:46 PM
Is that a promotion for pre-ordering or is that the upgrade price?



Edit: Limited time only!

KolbyJukes
08-01-2005, 03:46 PM
seexxxxxxyyyyy! can't wait for this.

I really hope the face robot tools are reasonably priced.

whoa! that zbrush import/auto-displacement setup totally floors me....

-K.

Spacelord
08-01-2005, 03:53 PM
They keep on adding new vids to the site. I really like the geometry instancing, the grass for fields will be a huge help. Would be good to see it with a better scene.

WesComan
08-01-2005, 03:53 PM
I suppose they cant amaze every single type of user in one release, but dont think you've been forgotten. As I animate mostly, the new timeline and shape manager and all sorts of other improvements look really really cool to me, wereas improvements to the rendertree, or particles probably wouldnt amaze me so much.

Same with me, really nice additions to the animation workflow...but I can't find any mention of updates the animation editor, I can't be the only person who's sick and tired of having to manually update it all the time (refresh - frame - refresh - frame - ad infinitum...) :sad:

Koogle
08-01-2005, 03:54 PM
gotta say the XSI 5 update really does look pretty sweet.. I was wondering if the new dynamics engine that uses Novadex will be able to use the PhysX chip to help calculate the dynamics when it gets released?

Anyway i'm a Maya user and Softimage are doing a good job marketing there new software.. Alias hurry up and get some Maya 7 content on your site! not everyone is going to siggraph!!

-JT-
08-01-2005, 03:54 PM
The Shape Manager sounds great !!! It reminds me of the morphs from Lightwave (one of its strongest features).

I still think a simple .psd export "à la cinema 4d" would be better than all these passes (now that there is foundation there is also simple users).

thematt
08-01-2005, 04:03 PM
wohoo..being a maya user, and working at a maya base studio, i can see the need of having just one seat of XSI just for the Gator thing and then transfer all back to maya with the fatastic Fbx format..man is these stuff amazing or what??, it totattly blew me away...

Congrats to softimage, this is serious advanceemnt for any real user..

cheers

gent_k
08-01-2005, 04:04 PM
whoa! that zbrush import/auto-displacement setup totally floors me....
cant see the vids.., a wise choice from my ISP to **** up my internet connection TODAY :banghead:. now i'm stuck on dial-up.

Would like to hear what this Zbrush import thing is all about...

And as for the rest of the features, man Softimage really listens to its customers. I mean besides improved particles(which they are supposed to be working on, apparently) every other major request has been settled it seems. Great job Softimage!

tuna
08-01-2005, 04:05 PM
Same with me, really nice additions to the animation workflow...but I can't find any mention of updates the animation editor, I can't be the only person who's sick and tired of having to manually update it all the time (refresh - frame - refresh - frame - ad infinitum...) :sad:

Yeah, I havent seen anything to say they've even touched it :shrug: (and I agree, it could do with a fair bit of attention). A little while ago I managed to change my keying workflow to the point where I dont really touch the f-curves too much. Just the dopesheet and SI|3D style curves (I find them much more predictable, and set extra, predictable keys instead of tweaking fiddly bezier handles).

CaptainSam
08-01-2005, 04:05 PM
i don't get how this is so fantastic, i think you can hold the S key instead of alt and navigate ? so how hard is it to use S instead of Alt

Its not just the alt or s key; Xsi and Maya have different mouse button combinations as well for navigating. After 6 years in Maya those combinations are so burned into my neural network that its an absolute nightmare to try to work in any other app (and Ive been forced to use Max at work; drives me insane trying to get the mouse buttons right when navigating)

I notice theyve also copied the DrivenKey editor (linked parameters or whatever its called in XSI), the BlendShape editor, channelBox and actually having keys in the timeLine. The lack of those things, or poor implentation, are things that Ive always found incredibly lame in XSI. Now Im definitively gonna start learning XSI

Spacelord
08-01-2005, 04:11 PM
Since they have Mental Ray 3.4 intregrated I hope they added in Mulitply FG bounces !!
All that grass stuff will be really usefull for Arch vis guys and that Gator stuff is amazing.

Mike Pauza
08-01-2005, 04:16 PM
Novadex physics? Wow...LightWave's gonna have to work to keep me.

SheepFactory
08-01-2005, 04:17 PM
Yeah, I havent seen anything to say they've even touched it :shrug: (and I agree, it could do with a fair bit of attention). A little while ago I managed to change my keying workflow to the point where I dont really touch the f-curves too much. Just the dopesheet and SI|3D style curves (I find them much more predictable, and set extra, predictable keys instead of tweaking fiddly bezier handles).

I am quite sure the anim editor got its fair share of updates. What we see at the website now are the major updates , even with the 4.2 release xsi had pages of updates not shown or mentioned at the site.

AA_Tyrael
08-01-2005, 04:18 PM
I guess i am gonna give it a try !

Now only if XSI had Maya's dinamycs :/

SheepFactory
08-01-2005, 04:23 PM
oh.....my......god

just watched a couple of vids , gator looks simply amazing :eek:

Goon
08-01-2005, 04:52 PM
The zbrush movie didn't seem to have any displacement seams. Does this mean they fixed that problem?

dmonk
08-01-2005, 04:56 PM
The face robot Vids were removed.


I can only assume this is because they were so damn awesome!

opus13
08-01-2005, 05:02 PM
idea:

if they are working on zbrush model integration, could they also be working on a way to link zbrush via that application layer annouced with version 4?

that would be quite the setup... launch zbrush inside of netview (or whatever its called, im not an xsi user :) )

samartin
08-01-2005, 05:07 PM
The face robot Vids were removed.


I can only assume this is because they were so damn awesome!

The face deformations were but the neck ballooning wasn't...

shingo
08-01-2005, 05:08 PM
That's an interesting theory. I suspect that maybe with 64 biut it might be possible in the future. idea:

if they are working on zbrush model integration, could they also be working on a way to link zbrush via that application layer annouced with version 4?

that would be quite the setup... launch zbrush inside of netview (or whatever its called, im not an xsi user :) )

StephanD
08-01-2005, 05:11 PM
if they are working on zbrush model integration, could they also be working on a way to link zbrush via that application layer annouced with version 4?

It has been speculated about before on the XSI board around the same time last year.

rocarpen
08-01-2005, 05:14 PM
Having never used XSI, and know almost nothing about it, I decided to check out this thread for a primer. Wow! Very impressive! Those videos are great. I've only seen the Ultimapper one completely, but it along blew me away. Awesome stuff. Anyone care to comment on the appropriateness of XSI for archvis work?

lildragon
08-01-2005, 05:19 PM
The peeps at SI pulls no punches, XSI is shaping up great. Very impressive updates.

-lild

de_tomato
08-01-2005, 05:21 PM
WOOWW!!

Am a full time Max user and part time Maya user, I must say, XSI just pwned 'em all in Siggraph 2005!

Sorry, am posting here coz to excited with Gigapolygon Core thingy, being a modeler myself, this is exactly what I'm looking for. But of coz, I have yet to see what the 'Double M' (Maya and Max) had in their release. Still yet to see their demo.

And again, I'd guess it safe to say after reading the release note (the 'leak' one), XSI had the best release of all.

NUKE-CG
08-01-2005, 05:41 PM
Alias called; they want their interface back. :wip:

But XSI 5 looks decent. If I ever get pulled from Maya to work on a XSI seat, the QWERTY + Alt should make things easier.

Still waiting for the big PDF from Alias for Maya 7, so who "won" this year is still undecided folks. Times like this you realize why the CG industry is so dynamic and innovative. So much competition. :)

lightblitter22
08-01-2005, 05:47 PM
Am a full time Max user and part time Maya user, I must say, XSI just pwned 'em all in Siggraph 2005!

I'd wait for the Maxon announcement. The software is already 64bit and they are being suspiciously quiet about what's coming this Siggraph. No announcement yet. :)

BRUTICUS
08-01-2005, 05:50 PM
looks like a great update! im stoked!

shingo
08-01-2005, 06:35 PM
Hands down, Face Robot will be the big one, no doubt about it.

Having seen the big PDF for Maya 7, Maya's stuff looks very nice, but nothign nearly as dramatic as Face Robot for a sheer leap in quality and productivity.
Alias called; they want their interface back. :wip:

But XSI 5 looks decent. If I ever get pulled from Maya to work on a XSI seat, the QWERTY + Alt should make things easier.

Still waiting for the big PDF from Alias for Maya 7, so who "won" this year is still undecided folks. Times like this you realize why the CG industry is so dynamic and innovative. So much competition. :)

sacslacker
08-01-2005, 06:40 PM
Actually I wouldn't judge a book by it's cover. The Maya 7 release, from what we're hearing, is quite impressive and a very big leap in quality and productivity. From what it looks like, Maya and XSI are the heavy hitters so far. I'm also excited for Luxology's product announcement.

Bonedaddy
08-01-2005, 07:16 PM
I am confused quite a bit about this Face Robot thing. The website keeps saying that it is a technology they're debuting at SIGGRAPH, but doesn't say it's in XSI 5. Is it an add-on, like Behavior? And what exactly does it do -- I get that it's a point-based facial animation system, as opposed to blendshape-based, but... is that it? Is there a muscle system included? Couldn't you do the same with bones? I haven't been able to watch any of the videos (streaming keeps cutting out like a second or two in), so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could anyone elucidate? It looks cool, but I'm not entirely sure what it is.

lightblitter22
08-01-2005, 07:20 PM
don't tell him what it does. he probably wants to use it for his vampire dating game thing.. :p

shingo
08-01-2005, 07:23 PM
Check out the results. I'm sold. ;-)

http://www.softimage.com/Products/face_robot/video_gallery.asp

I am confused quite a bit about this Face Robot thing. The website keeps saying that it is a technology they're debuting at SIGGRAPH, but doesn't say it's in XSI 5. Is it an add-on, like Behavior? And what exactly does it do -- I get that it's a point-based facial animation system, as opposed to blendshape-based, but... is that it? Is there a muscle system included? Couldn't you do the same with bones? I haven't been able to watch any of the videos (streaming keeps cutting out like a second or two in), so I'm sure I'm missing something. Could anyone elucidate? It looks cool, but I'm not entirely sure what it is.

KolbyJukes
08-01-2005, 07:34 PM
has anyone heard a ship date yet?

JDex
08-01-2005, 07:49 PM
No the ship date hasn't been announced.

Bonedaddy
08-01-2005, 08:16 PM
Check out the results. I'm sold. ;-)

http://www.softimage.com/Products/face_robot/video_gallery.asp



Ahem.. can't watch the videos, they keep cutting out after a second or two. Plus I'm on Linux at work, and to my knowledge, there's no Windows Media Player for Linux... ;)

MunCHeR
08-01-2005, 08:25 PM
Bonedaddy, this link was on softimages site:

http://mplayerhq.hu/homepage/design7/dload.html

or give vlc player a go.

Cheers

MunCH

Bonedaddy
08-01-2005, 08:26 PM
Oh, totally missed that. I will give that a go. Thanks. :)

Apoclypse
08-01-2005, 08:28 PM
I love XSi. Its been my favorite app since version 1.5. However I'm disappointed that XSI has to resort to emulating another apps gui. I understand WHY they are doing it but it just doesn't seem right somehow. One thing I can say is that they did improve on maya's often cluttered gui considerably and made it somewhat more streamlined. I guess this is to shutup all those people complaining about how XSI isn't maya, or "how do you do this maya stuff in XSI". The greatest thing about xsi is that its a very powerful app, but most of that power is hidden and for the most part the user doesn't even need to know about these features for them to use the software. How many "can I do this in XSI" threads have you seen that already have an answer in XSI.

I do like the other stuff especially, the gigapolygon thing. I'm not that excited about the rest and probably won't be until I see a new particle system in XSI.

shingo
08-01-2005, 08:41 PM
Some people are pretty hard to please and this thinking about doing things differently is just stupid IMHO.

If another app comes up with an approach that is agreed upon as being logic and efficient, it makes no sense to go the other way just to prove a point. Many of the Maya type features are there not onyl becasue Maya users have asked for them, but seasoned XSI users also, who have seen what they like in Maya and asked for it. One good example are 3d manipulators. Another is the channel box in XSI 5. XSI does some things more elegantly than Maya and visa vera. Some of the new features in Maya 7 are already in XSI.

if you're not excited about XSI 5, then I suspect it is either beyond your appreciation or that all you do all day is particles, in which case I would agree. In any case, Gareth morgan (Soft product manager) has said the particels will be overhauled before the end of the year.



I love XSi. Its been my favorite app since version 1.5. However I'm disappointed that XSI has to resort to emulating another apps gui. I understand WHY they are doing it but it just doesn't seem right somehow. One thing I can say is that they did improve on maya's often cluttered gui considerably and made it somewhat more streamlined. I guess this is to shutup all those people complaining about how XSI isn't maya, or "how do you do this maya stuff in XSI". The greatest thing about xsi is that its a very powerful app, but most of that power is hidden and for the most part the user doesn't even need to know about these features for them to use the software. How many "can I do this in XSI" threads have you seen that already have an answer in XSI.

I do like the other stuff especially, the gigapolygon thing. I'm not that excited about the rest and probably won't be until I see a new particle system in XSI.

CaptainSam
08-01-2005, 08:53 PM
I love XSi. Its been my favorite app since version 1.5. However I'm disappointed that XSI has to resort to emulating another apps gui.

Doing that is the smartest thing any 3d software company has done in a long time. Maybe for the "My application is so much better than anyone else's" purist crowd this is a day of defeat, but for those with limited time on their hands and a job that has to be done, not having to unlearn stuff youve been doing every day for 6 years, like how to move the camera, is a great help. It certainly makes me A LOT more inclined to start getting into XSI. Like I said in another post, they also copied stuff that is hands down better in Maya, like the drivenKey/parameter connection editor, blendShape editor, tearOff menus and the channelBox. If thats a problem for you, just do it in the old clumsy XSI way, and turn off display of keys in the timeLine.

I wish every app would at least have an option for setting camera navigation to emulate other apps. Wings3D has done that for years, supporting XSI, Maya, Max and Lightwave mappings. This ought to be standard in EVERY program.

If Alias implemented the three mousebutton XYZ/spacebar concept, I would applaud it. I wouldnt use it myself, but it would make the transition to Maya easier for the XSI folks.

(BTW, Adobe realised this years ago, Premiere ships with optional FinalCut shortcuts, and Indesign with QuarkXpress shortcuts)

The greatest thing about xsi is that its a very powerful app, but most of that power is hidden and for the most part the user doesn't even need to know about these features for them to use the software.

This has always worried me a bit about XSI actually, because as a TD i NEED access to all that stuff that goes on in the dark. Of course XSI gives you all the access you need, but without something like Maya's dependency graph (basically like renderView for connections between nodes or operators or what theyre called in XSI) and not having the entire user interface available as editable scripts, makes it look like a steeper hill to climb. But what the hell do I know.

f97ao
08-01-2005, 09:01 PM
Extremely impressive the large scenes. I'm glad companies (this one at least) are finally beginning to focus on displaying very large scenes with clever technology.
Looking forward to trying XSI for the first time. :)

/Andreas

Apoclypse
08-01-2005, 09:10 PM
Wow....

Look I'm not saying that the update isn't a good, so all you zealots can just calm the f*ck down. I didn't say anything all that negative about the app. i'mjust not all that excited about the update. Thats it, thats my opinion. Its not about XSI beaing better than Maya or max or any other app for that matter. It's the workflow of XSI that has always been its strong point. Changing the ui, changeds the workflow. HOWEVER, Softimage does let you go back to yor old way of working and that to me is what they do best, cater to all users.

I don't believe all 3d apps should be the same, then why bother having 3 different apps if they all do the same thing. Yes taking an idea from one app and using it in an other is a good thing, but it seems wrong to just take the whole gui and transfer it over. It's like they are trying to be maya, I know that is not the case but its weird. Buti guess Max did it so why not XSI.

BTW, a new particle system in XSI has been a long time coming and I'm just excited to see what Softimage's interpritation of a particle system is. And I hope that its not just like Maya's.

percydaman
08-01-2005, 09:11 PM
Extremely impressive the large scenes. I'm glad companies (this one at least) are finally beginning to focus on displaying very large scenes with clever technology.
Looking forward to trying XSI for the first time. :)

/Andreas

same here. Ive really been itching to try XSI. Its too bad the foundation version isn't 64bit. I probably would have ordered that today if it was 64bit.

shingo
08-01-2005, 09:12 PM
I would be happy to tolerate Maya's particle system in XSI, especialyl where it matters - on the API and scripting side of things.

Wow....

Look I'm not saying that the update isn't a good, so all you zealots can just calm the f*ck down. I didn't say anything all that negative about the app. i'mjust not all that excited about the update. Thats it, thats my opinion. Its not about XSI beaing better than Maya or max or any other app for that matter. It's the workflow of XSI that has always been its strong point. Changing the ui, changeds the workflow. HOWEVER, Softimage does let you go back to yor old way of working and that to me is what they do best, cater to all users.

I don't believe all 3d apps should be the same, then why bother having 3 different apps if they all do the same thing. Yes taking an idea from one app and using it in an other is a good thing, but it seems wrong to just take the whole gui and transfer it over. It's like they are trying to be maya, I know that is not the case but its weird. Buti guess Max did it so why not XSI.

BTW, a new particle system in XSI has been a long time coming and I'm just excited to see what Softimage's interpritation of a particle system is. And I hope that its not just like Maya's.

tuna
08-01-2005, 09:25 PM
Wow....

Look I'm not saying that the update isn't a good, so all you zealots can just calm the f*ck down.

Everyone's pretty calm in this thread :) We don't need you to bring drama into this and call people zealots for having a different opinion than you, especially since the 2 replies you got were well typed and had examples and logic applied. That's not zealotry, that's reasoned opinion.

As an animator, some of the shamelessly stolen Maya features :P are very welcome. They are enhancements to XSI and streamline quite a lot of the 'workflow' I already have in XSI. I'm happy with this update because it looks like it doesn't mean I have to change my 'workflow' at all in order to make use of the features.

P.S. I hate the word 'workflow' it sounds far too spectacular for what it really means :)

Hazmat
08-01-2005, 09:28 PM
same here. Ive really been itching to try XSI. Its too bad the foundation version isn't 64bit. I probably would have ordered that today if it was 64bit.

Hmmm... I could use some insight into this. I know that Foundation doesn't come with 64Bit Mental Ray, but does that mean that Foundation itself is not 64bit? I didn't see it stated as such, though I know that the best answer is to just wait until further information is available... Baseless speculation is always fun though...:D

Apoclypse
08-01-2005, 09:37 PM
I was responding to this

if you're not excited about XSI 5, then I suspect it is either beyond your appreciation or that all you do all day is particles, in which case I would agree

But sorry if I misconstrued the intent behind the comment. I didn't mean to bring drama into this thread. But I was stating MY opinion and had 2 guys tell me either I was a My app is better than yours jerk or somebody "who just does particles all day". My point was not to put maya down, I love maya. Its a powerful app with a lot of features. But I love XSi for the same reasons, but It was always the gui that i loved the most. That is my opinion. Like I said you have a choice, I wasn't amking a big deal like this wasn't the case. If you like the maya gui, great, by all means use it.

Now lets get back to talking about features and disregard my opinions entirely. :)

CaptainSam
08-01-2005, 09:47 PM
Okay, peace. Group hug, everyone. Now lets go over to the LightWave thread and raise hell

ThePumpkinKing
08-01-2005, 10:03 PM
Okay, this looks cool.......Really Cool. Displacement map integration is a god send, as well as the tweak tool.

One question, after the promotion is over, I have to buy a new copy right, I can't just upgrade my old one. (I know this was asked in earlier posts, but it wasn't so clear to me).

beaker
08-01-2005, 10:04 PM
I love XSi. Its been my favorite app since version 1.5. However I'm disappointed that XSI has to resort to emulating another apps gui. I understand WHY they are doing it but it just doesn't seem right somehow.One issue that happens(especially in LA) is that there are a lot of people out there trained in Maya, but not many in XSI. So companies using XSI have a lot of trouble finding employees who can hit the ground running. This will allow companies to hire maya people and get them going on XSI in a much shorter time.

There is only a 10-15% difference between most 3d apps, it's just a matter of finding where all the buttons are and what they renamed everything.

Strang
08-01-2005, 10:18 PM
One issue that happens(especially in LA) is that there are a lot of people out there trained in Maya, but not many in XSI. So companies using XSI have a lot of trouble finding employees who can hit the ground running. This will allow companies to hire maya people and get them going on XSI in a much shorter time.

There is only a 10-15% difference between most 3d apps, it's just a matter of finding where all the buttons are and what they renamed everything.

agreed beaker

and the option is right there. file>interaction model>qwerty alt mouse bla bla

its seamless... you sit down. you flip the switch and go. its not shameful to have this. its definately smart.

another perspective is. your a TD :) your trying to troubleshoot an artists scene. and you gotta fumble around with this alt mouse mapping and keys etc etc.. like i said flip the switch and no harm done.

there are 7 topics on the CGnews board all about softimage.. THEY gotta be loving this

Teyon
08-01-2005, 10:52 PM
I'm happy abouty the update to XSI, the one thing I fetl was holding me back with it was the tweak function and that's been revamped. The rest is just icing on the cake....too bad Softimage CO. gave me 4.2 to do my review with last month...ah well, I'll just have to save up for this new release! :)

Brettzies
08-01-2005, 11:02 PM
and the option is right there. file>interaction model>qwerty alt mouse bla bla

its seamless... you sit down. you flip the switch and go. its not shameful to have this. its definately smart.
I wish ALL apps would follow this. I mean, it may seem a bit cumbersome for them to allow for another app's interface/navigation scheme. But it's all pretty much the same, pan, rotate, zoom, etc. Why not just give the user access to map any keyboard mouse combination they want? They wouldn't even have to write the scheme. Some users would post LW, Max, Cinema, etc all on their own I bet.

I realize all apps have a reason for designing their interface keyboard layout but it can make transitioning a lot easier. Or, if you frequently switch between apps, it would be a godsend to have the majority of the keys and navigation work the same as your main program.

I think this "simple" gesture is one of the smartest things any software company has ever done.

JDex
08-01-2005, 11:04 PM
Finally got to a system where I could view the videos... GATOR!!! That is awesome... I have got to get the $$$ together for Essentials.

I'm also really glad to see some of the more minor improvements... enhanced render visibility options, the texture swimming, and of course Multibounce FG (MR 3.4).

shingo
08-01-2005, 11:06 PM
Well, it's hardly a big deal these days. Motion Builder and Endorphin both have Maya keyboard navigation as either standard or optional.

It's like the middle mouse button is in compositing apps liek Shake. People get used to using it. Fighting the accepted conventions serves no purpose.

I wish ALL apps would follow this. I mean, it may seem a bit cumbersome for them to allow for another app's interface/navigation scheme. But it's all pretty much the same, pan, rotate, zoom, etc. Why not just give the user access to map any keyboard mouse combination they want? They wouldn't even have to write the scheme. Some users would post LW, Max, Cinema, etc all on their own I bet.

I realize all apps have a reason for designing their interface keyboard layout but it can make transitioning a lot easier. Or, if you frequently switch between apps, it would be a godsend to have the majority of the keys and navigation work the same as your main program.

I think this "simple" gesture is one of the smartest things any software company has ever done.

Signal2Noise
08-01-2005, 11:18 PM
...
also worth noting the recent announcments of max 8 and maya 7.
...

And don't forget LightWave [9]!!! With it's new full version price point of $795 US to boot!


Foundation 4 upgrade to 5= $395 US. Ouch! Methinks I'll be saving my chump change for Essentials 5 rather than upgrading to Foundation 5 for almost the same price as I did for 4. :hmm:

Pilchard
08-01-2005, 11:25 PM
Bring on the 5! :)

ThomasMahler
08-01-2005, 11:30 PM
Okay, so is anyone here who could tell us a few specifics about faceRobot? I mean, color me impressed, the videos look great, but I'm sure that the same thing is possible within Maya with blendShapes and good weightPainting. Of course, it'd take a damn long time to create such a setup with perfect weights and all that jazz, but it's already possibe.

So, what's so special about faceRobot? What's different about it? Do I just add those "points" to certain parts of my face, paint weights and apply "preset functions", so that everything will "magically" work out? Okay, so no more blendShapes, that'd be awesome, but really: HOW DOES IT WORK? I hope some Softimage guys are reading this thread: Your update is cool and all, but it'd be nice if you could set up some videos where you guys could actually explain the workflow behind this. It's hard to become excited if all I see is great animation without seeing the work behind it. So, maybe some of the blur guys? It looks damn good, I really haven't seen a lot of facial animation that was that "loose" and believable, but I think I speak for everybody here when I'm saying: How the hell does faceRobot actually work?

AA_Tyrael
08-01-2005, 11:41 PM
Thomas made good points.
However i have my own concerns as well
The video looks great, but its pretty much the "perfect" example

How is it gonna work on a completely different face?

KingMob
08-01-2005, 11:44 PM
Okay, so is anyone here who could tell us a few specifics about faceRobot? I mean, color me impressed, the videos look great, but I'm sure that the same thing is possible within Maya with blendShapes and good weightPainting. Of course, it'd take a damn long time to create such a setup with perfect weights and all that jazz, but it's already possibe.

So, what's so special about faceRobot? What's different about it? Do I just add those "points" to certain parts of my face, paint weights and apply "preset functions", so that everything will "magically" work out? Okay, so no more blendShapes, that'd be awesome, but really: HOW DOES IT WORK? I hope some Softimage guys are reading this thread: Your update is cool and all, but it'd be nice if you could set up some videos where you guys could actually explain the workflow behind this. It's hard to become excited if all I see is great animation without seeing the work behind it. So, maybe some of the blur guys? It looks damn good, I really haven't seen a lot of facial animation that was that "loose" and believable, but I think I speak for everybody here when I'm saying: How the hell does faceRobot actually work?


You really need to see it in action to appreciate it. Its ease of use, simultion and more(boy I bet the guys are gonna hate my terminology) makes it pretty damn ...amazing.

If you think they are going to give all the tricks away now just wait, it rocks and will keep on rocking more.

I would say more but I know I can not say much, but if you get a chance to go to siggraph try and hit the avid booth for sure!

vlad74
08-02-2005, 12:13 AM
I am really happy I swiched to XSI.:)

antweiler
08-02-2005, 12:22 AM
as a maya user with interest (and some knowledge) in XSI , i must say that the conversion of Mayas UI is the most exiting feature for me, since it puts us maya users into a "win-win" situation. I liked, that XSI was fast, and had already solved many problems Maya had one year ago, but i hated the esotheric UI.

leigh
08-02-2005, 03:04 AM
I can't wait to go round to XSI's booth tomorrow at Siggraph to check this out!!

Heber
08-02-2005, 04:02 AM
just saw every single video on the website...i am salivating over this release...
fast skin shader finally!!!
and face robot...whooo . Im sure they will add more to this list of features. :)

DevilHacker
08-02-2005, 04:07 AM
Foundation 4 upgrade to 5= $395 US. Ouch! Methinks I'll be saving my chump change for Essentials 5 rather than upgrading to Foundation 5 for almost the same price as I did for 4. :hmm:LOL, that’s what I was just thinking...
Does anyone know of a price to upgrade from the 4.2 version of Foundations to the 5.0 version of Essentials? Or have they not released all the prices yet? The only upgrade price I can find is the price for upgrading to the foundation version of 5.0...

Apoclypse
08-02-2005, 04:33 AM
i just saw the videos. I stand corrected. This freaking ROCKS man. I want this so bad. The GATOR kicks so much a$$. But what I really want to play with is the ultimapper, that is gonna be the TOOL.:buttrock:

prajna
08-02-2005, 06:26 AM
Okay, peace. Group hug, everyone. Now lets go over to the LightWave thread and raise hell



Could some of you please do that? They need some of that over there...:hmm:


<>

Balusilustalu
08-02-2005, 10:24 AM
Oh man this looks sweet. I'm so impressed with the giant leaps the SI team have made. They sure have come a long way with XSI. Hats off to them! :thumbsup:

The Gigacore polygon core is something I've been waiting for for a very long time. No more limits... :D

ntmonkey
08-02-2005, 10:39 AM
Being both an XSI and Maya user, this is a great time to be in 3D.
Working RBDs and a particle overhaul later this year.....there is a God! :D
Big thanks to the Softimage boys and girls for listening.

peace,

Lu

Pilchard
08-02-2005, 12:24 PM
I can't wait to go round to XSI's booth tomorrow at Siggraph to check this out!!

Any chance of some piccies? :)

alexyork
08-02-2005, 01:28 PM
hot damn. time to get the wallet out again!

StephanD
08-02-2005, 01:43 PM
LOL, that’s what I was just thinking...
Does anyone know of a price to upgrade from the 4.2 version of Foundations to the 5.0 version of Essentials? Or have they not released all the prices yet? The only upgrade price I can find is the price for upgrading to the foundation version of 5.0...


Foundation users are not given Ess or Advanced upgrade capability.I'm 99.9% sure of that.

JDex
08-02-2005, 01:45 PM
Foundation users are not given Ess or Advanced upgrade capability.I'm 99.9% sure of that.

Why do you say that... there has been an upgrade path from FND to ESS/ADV since the release of FND. I guess they could pull the path, but that would upset some (ok many) existing customers.

mannix8
08-02-2005, 03:15 PM
if xsi, maya and 3dsmax are in a race- sailing on the pacific ocean; i think xsi is now finally on the lead! way to go!

drdespair
08-02-2005, 04:08 PM
Why do you say that... there has been an upgrade path from FND to ESS/ADV since the release of FND. I guess they could pull the path, but that would upset some (ok many) existing customers.

There has? I was only able to find full priced versions from dealers, since Softimage does not seem to sell the Ess or Adv version online. ??? Has anyone ever got a quote for this?

Anyway.. here in Switzerland I cant even order the Foundation upgrade.. have to wait to be contacted by a Softimage representative....... :(

Rhale
08-02-2005, 05:30 PM
Has anyone ever got a quote for this?


Yes, I got 2 quotes (in the UK) to upgrade Fnd 4.2 to Ess 4.2 and the price was basically the cost of Essentials less the cost of Foundation.

As it happens, I didn't upgrade but I have pre-ordered Foundation 5 because the feature list is much deeper than it looks at first glance (also, I was kind of hoping that the release date would be sooner if there's lots of pre-orders, heh)

dmonk
08-02-2005, 05:49 PM
Yes, I got 2 quotes (in the UK) to upgrade Fnd 4.2 to Ess 4.2 and the price was basically the cost of Essentials less the cost of Foundation.

As it happens, I didn't upgrade but I have pre-ordered Foundation 5 because the feature list is much deeper than it looks at first glance (also, I was kind of hoping that the release date would be sooner if there's lots of pre-orders, heh)

I saw that too.

Foundation is only missing a few things, but what it does include will get the job done.

StephanD
08-02-2005, 06:40 PM
Hair would be great though :)



Who made that face robot model?It's awesome.

AmbiDextrose
08-02-2005, 06:47 PM
Hair would be great though :)



Who made that face robot model?It's awesome.

That guy who did Ornatrix Flame for 3DS Max was interested in porting his product over to XSI because a lot of FND users were actually asking for it in his forums. His main issue was that the SDK didn't expose all the features/functions he needed for his code to be properly ported. Hopefully, v 5.0 addressed this concern and opens up the SDK. If it is, FND users might have a hair plug-in within a year.

ThomasMahler
08-02-2005, 07:44 PM
http://www.softimage.com/Products/face_robot/pdfs/softimage_facerobot_faq.pdf

Has the FAQ already been posted?

I really want to know how this system works - Everything sounds great. But before we haven't seen how it actually worked, it's all more or less speculation and rumors.

Has SoftImage already revealed a release date or announced when they're going to show more of faceRobot?

Btw, Ian, just saw that you modeled this guy - Very good job, hope you guys have further use for him! :)

AmbiDextrose
08-02-2005, 07:45 PM
http://www.softimage.com/Products/face_robot/pdfs/softimage_facerobot_faq.pdf

Has the FAQ already been posted?

I really want to know how this system works - Everything sounds great. But before we haven't seen how it actually worked, it's all more or less speculation and rumors.

Has SoftImage already revealed a release date or announced when they're going to show more of faceRobot?

Probably after they unveil the technology at SIGGRAPH.

EDIT:
Then agian, there is this:

http://www.softimage.com/Products/face_robot/pdfs/softimage_facerobot_faq.pdf

Apoclypse
08-02-2005, 10:09 PM
Okay, peace. Group hug, everyone. Now lets go over to the LightWave thread and raise hell

Boy, that LW thread is toxic. They're crazy over there.

Proximus
08-03-2005, 01:08 AM
I am siting in front of the presentation screen and I try to write on my PDA so I have to be brief. Face robot has a simple interface, where you're guided into assigning points, to define the face shape,eyes and teeth then the next step is the computer calculating the guide. Is like manipulating a gelly mass by puling the points. It knows where are the eyes and blinks are appplied corectly.
Is no release date or price yet announced.

AA_Tyrael
08-03-2005, 02:01 AM
Uh... so bassicaly its like "Full body IK", but for the face =)

Sweet

]-UnderTOW-[
08-03-2005, 02:23 AM
A maya user here. Although these new XSI features are nice (Novodex! That's just awesome! Maya shortcuts, and finally, keyframes in the timline!), i'm far more excited about the Maya update. I really like XSI as an optional package, but i still prefer maya. There are a few things, mainly the UI, that i love in maya. The marking menus, the maniuplators (with the use of the MMB), and the unified UI how the controls are all the same in each editor. I found it rather primitive (and very 3ds max-like. Eewww) that each editor would have a seperate and different set of shortcuts (and what's with the zooming in the UV edtior?).

It's nice to know that if ever in the future i have to use XSI, it'll be a pleasant experience (unlike having to use max. Oh the pain.) :)

Bonedaddy
08-03-2005, 04:24 AM
Face robot, from the demo, looked like this:

You start with an unrigged, normal face, and run face robot. It asks you to define several different points on the mesh (with an artisan, click-on-the-surface-point interface), like tip of nose, top of ear, etc. Then it sits there for awhile (potentially a great long while, I believe the presenter mentioned hours of calculation) and automatically figures out the weighting for the face, based on the distance between the points. This can probably be adjusted later. Then you can move everything around simply, and the weighting looked pretty good. I didn't see anything where he'd move one point, and then another point would move accordingly, but the weighting was pretty smooth.

Probably a lot that I'm missing, but it just looks like an auto-skinning tool, likely using a lot of the proximity-based point calculations in GATOR. Good tool, but I wonder if it works on asymmetrical heads (the points were all created two at a time, symetrically around the head), weird alien heads, whether it'd work for animals, and what it'd take for it to break.

ThomasMahler
08-03-2005, 07:55 AM
Sounds great to me - And for asymmetrical heads and alien heads, etc., I'm sure you could use the faceRobot weights as a starting point and keep refining.

Hope Softimage puts some "How it's done" videos up soon!

gent_k
08-03-2005, 11:52 AM
http://siggraphnews.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=33854

here is an interesting article.

I initially thought the speed improvements and memory management would mostly apply to only 64bit systems.

But seeing a part of their presentation was rendering a 152 million polygon render on a 1.7 GHz (32bit) laptop with 1GB of RAM really shows how serious this memory management improvement is.
If you've rendered large scenes in MentalRay previously(and it probably crashed in even 3-4 million poly scenes, depending on your memory), you know this improvement is pure GOLD.

shingo
08-03-2005, 04:08 PM
Of course you would be more excited abot Maya. It's what you use. The release looks of May looks pretty good, but from a XSI perspective it seems pretty dry. It's a matter of POV no?

For example, Maya users generalyl don't liek the XSI UI and visa versa. As for the unified UI, that's again a matter of personal ineterpretation. There are inconsistencies in Maya as well as XSI.

generally thoguh I think we all agree, it's time for MAX to retire. ;-)

-UnderTOW-[']A maya user here. Although these new XSI features are nice (Novodex! That's just awesome! Maya shortcuts, and finally, keyframes in the timline!), i'm far more excited about the Maya update. I really like XSI as an optional package, but i still prefer maya. There are a few things, mainly the UI, that i love in maya. The marking menus, the maniuplators (with the use of the MMB), and the unified UI how the controls are all the same in each editor. I found it rather primitive (and very 3ds max-like. Eewww) that each editor would have a seperate and different set of shortcuts (and what's with the zooming in the UV edtior?).

It's nice to know that if ever in the future i have to use XSI, it'll be a pleasant experience (unlike having to use max. Oh the pain.) :)

pappuftp
08-03-2005, 04:36 PM
generally thoguh I think we all agree, it's time for MAX to retire. ;-)

one era's hero is another's Villian..:wise:
don't u drag max into this ...:scream:

hehe

SkyZero
08-03-2005, 04:58 PM
From what I saw at the Softimage User Group , you place about 30ish control points on the head. After which the program does its calculation. I think they did say that it works only with human heads for now.

During the presentation it was said they could not show the program in its entirety. They basically showed that part where you placed the control points and the end product. There is a step in between they were not allowed to elaborate on yet, which I believe is where you specify how the skin behaves when the control points are moved.

Someone else that was there could post more on the subject as I was running on fumes by then... :D

GordaN
08-03-2005, 05:23 PM
I was thinking... Is the dual monitor issue solved in this version 5?

I mean, to use both monitors in XSI (at least in the Fnd Demo) i have to set the nVidia drivers to share the desktop to have a sort of double sized monitor (first ugly thing) and, in this case, i can't put my second monitor on the left.

In Maya you could set, for example, the Graph editor on a floating windows and put it wherever you want, just with the "classic" dual screen setup. In XSI you can use floatings win too, but the editors are constrained into the main "window" of the program.

PS: sorry for the bad english

thematt
08-03-2005, 05:37 PM
oh.actually face robot is a stand alone that will be available to support maya, max and Xsi, that's pretty cool, since I'm a maya user..can't wait to play with the beast !! :)

I suppose Xsi will got it first and that's fair.
I'll play with the updated from maya in the meanwhile.

cheers

gameboy
08-03-2005, 05:47 PM
On the XSI version 5.0 comparison chart (http://www.softimage.com/products/Xsi/v5/comparison/default.asp), right at the top it mentions Foundation will not come with a "Floating Interactive XSI Seat". Does this mean that Foundation ver. 5.0 will be node-locked to a particular CPU/Motherboard/etc.? :surprised

Hazmat
08-03-2005, 06:17 PM
On the XSI version 5.0 comparison chart (http://www.softimage.com/products/Xsi/v5/comparison/default.asp), right at the top it mentions Foundation will not come with a "Floating Interactive XSI Seat". Does this mean that Foundation ver. 5.0 will be node-locked to a particular CPU/Motherboard/etc.?

This was the case with 4.0 as well. There is no way to tell (yet) if V.5 will be locked down to hardware, but 4.0 wasn't. I was able to move my software from my desktop to my laptop without the need to re-license.

xsi_newbie
08-04-2005, 03:31 PM
Hello,

For all you out there exhausted from your last day at SIGGRAPH, can you take the time to give us your vote? Which new release (XSI, Maya, Max, Lightwave, ....) impressed you the most? WHY?

Of course I think it was XSI...but I am a bit biased. However, overall, I just wasn't as impressed with the new features in any of the others. The list of features going into 5.0 was, to me, far superior! Plus, much more inovative...

For maya, they just seemed to be saying "we are now faster". But to me, that means "we know we were slow, but now we've caught up with everyone else". lol. Anyone agree? :-)

Just my 2 cents worth...

DirtEater
08-04-2005, 08:20 PM
For maya, they just seemed to be saying "we are now faster". But to me, that means "we know we were slow, but now we've caught up with everyone else". lol. Anyone agree? :-)

Just my 2 cents worth...

I thought some of the Maya advances were very major, but it occurs to me that I don't know if you can do some of these things in XSI already.

For example: The new Maya feature of being able to modify the geometry (mess with the point order) of a base mesh and update blendshapes with the new geometry is just amazing! Can XSI do this already? I'm not issuing a challenge, I simply don't know.

As far as character set-up in general goes; yes, Maya is just catching up.

ChristianFischer
08-04-2005, 08:48 PM
Can XSI do this already?

yes .. that's what the construction modes are for :)

shingo
08-04-2005, 08:49 PM
Yes you could do this as of v 4.0.

And that is childs play compared to what GATOR can do, which allows you to transfer shape animation from one mesh to another completely unrelated mesh. Try doing that in Maya. ;-)
Also, the paintable shape weights in May a7 has been in XSI since v2 or 3.

I thought some of the Maya advances were very major, but it occurs to me that I don't know if you can do some of these things in XSI already.

For example: The new Maya feature of being able to modify the geometry (mess with the point order) of a base mesh and update blendshapes with the new geometry is just amazing! Can XSI do this already? I'm not issuing a challenge, I simply don't know.

As far as character set-up in general goes; yes, Maya is just catching up.

shingo
08-04-2005, 08:53 PM
I think it's biased of me to suggest that XSI 5 together with Face Robot definitely has to take the prize for best in show.

I thought some of the Maya advances were very major, but it occurs to me that I don't know if you can do some of these things in XSI already.

For example: The new Maya feature of being able to modify the geometry (mess with the point order) of a base mesh and update blendshapes with the new geometry is just amazing! Can XSI do this already? I'm not issuing a challenge, I simply don't know.

As far as character set-up in general goes; yes, Maya is just catching up.

gent_k
08-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Yup, Gator does that and many other crazy stuff. Pretty amazing really.

AA_Tyrael
08-04-2005, 11:06 PM
yes and maya can do many other stuff

For example try rigging a tail or a fish.

Gotta love dynamic curves ^_^

And i am 100% sure that the Full Body IK is gonna simply rock !

I have to agree that avid is doing damn good work with XSI, but guys dont bash Alias..

There's a reason why Studios use Maya..
Maya SDK is light years ahead of XSI ;-)

DirtEater
08-04-2005, 11:20 PM
I have to agree that avid is doing damn good work with XSI, but guys dont bash Alias..

There's a reason why Studios use Maya..
Maya SDK is light years ahead of XSI ;-)

Come on, I asked a valid question and was answered without any Maya bashing. You're sort of trolling the thread.

AA_Tyrael
08-04-2005, 11:25 PM
hey shingo started it dont blame me

leigh
08-04-2005, 11:49 PM
Knock it off guys.

acidboy
08-05-2005, 12:41 AM
Lachrymolonaut: the new blend shape and substitute geometry tools in Maya 7 are great improvements.

To answer your question about xsi in a non bashing way ;) Basically xsi works with data differently as there is no need for obtrusive tools to do these tasks.
As you edit a base mesh the blend shapes are updated automatically, also there is no need to have separate copies of the mesh for different blend shapes, they can all be created on the same original mesh. Also you can have the entire character as a single mesh and assign the blend shapes to a local area (cluster) like the face, and it wont calculate the points anywhere else. So basically there are no limitations or extra tools to slow down the process, its practically transparent to the user.
Also because the connection between the modelling history and blend shapes are dynamic, you can have animated modelling on the mesh and the shapes will update dynamically during the animation. Eg. poly reductions, slice planes on a characters face as it has complex blend shapes and enveloping.

The same holds true for editing enveloped geometry, no need to substitute the mesh manually. You are free to edit it your mesh at any time and your enveloping will also update automatically.

It's clear that alias and max are trying to emulate xsi's nonlinear workflow and NLA tools. But because these issues are overcome at a core level of the code, maya/max are forced to develop multiple tools to try and get around these issues, which come off making the processes more complex and also quiet limiting.

With that said, it's great to see alias making an effort as now when I'm forced to use maya for character work, I'll look forward to it a lot more then in the past.


PS. Sorry for the long rant.

raffael3d
08-05-2005, 12:50 AM
yes and maya can do many other stuff

For example try rigging a tail or a fish.

Gotta love dynamic curves ^_^

And i am 100% sure that the Full Body IK is gonna simply rock !

I have to agree that avid is doing damn good work with XSI, but guys dont bash Alias..

There's a reason why Studios use Maya..
Maya SDK is light years ahead of XSI ;-)

rigging a Tail has been around for a long time in xsi...

Strang
08-05-2005, 01:29 AM
I was thinking... Is the dual monitor issue solved in this version 5?

I mean, to use both monitors in XSI (at least in the Fnd Demo) i have to set the nVidia drivers to share the desktop to have a sort of double sized monitor (first ugly thing) and, in this case, i can't put my second monitor on the left.

In Maya you could set, for example, the Graph editor on a floating windows and put it wherever you want, just with the "classic" dual screen setup. In XSI you can use floatings win too, but the editors are constrained into the main "window" of the program.

PS: sorry for the bad english

if this hasn't been answered..

yes the window/ppgs in XSI are truely floating now. you can have a single screen layout but use 2 monitors effectively

Strang
08-05-2005, 01:47 AM
Sounds great to me - And for asymmetrical heads and alien heads, etc., I'm sure you could use the faceRobot weights as a starting point and keep refining.

Hope Softimage puts some "How it's done" videos up soon!

just to answer somethings for you. sorry if you have already found out.

Softimage|FaceRobot will be a seperate licensing option.. so there is advanced. and adv with facerobot.

no release date as of yet.. nor pricing structure.

i dont think they will put up "how its done" info. and i personally dont think they should. their intelectual property should be purchased. IMO

this package can work in many pipelines, and was a focus when developing. because they are working with clients that have a pipeline that doesn't include XSI, they can still make it happen.

at siggraph what they were showing wasn't even the "final" product..

IMO its a great product made by great people...

sacslacker
08-05-2005, 02:59 AM
Hello,

For all you out there exhausted from your last day at SIGGRAPH, can you take the time to give us your vote? Which new release (XSI, Maya, Max, Lightwave, ....) impressed you the most? WHY?

Of course I think it was XSI...but I am a bit biased. However, overall, I just wasn't as impressed with the new features in any of the others. The list of features going into 5.0 was, to me, far superior! Plus, much more inovative...

For maya, they just seemed to be saying "we are now faster". But to me, that means "we know we were slow, but now we've caught up with everyone else". lol. Anyone agree? :-)

Just my 2 cents worth...

I'd prefer not to join the software war since both packages (and all others for that matter) have their ups and downs. However, I'd say if you use Maya (I do) and you used Maya 7 ( I am), you'd know how big of an advance and how huge the improvements were. In fact, I'd call this one of the more revolutionary years for Maya. But hey, that's just me.

They are just applications right?

raffael3d
08-05-2005, 03:09 AM
for me its XSI. maya has some nice new features, but you know what, most of them have been inside XSI for a long time, the toonshader looks good, but most of the stuff is just catching up to XSI and other apps and they sell it as revolutionary. They see that you can change the point order as something new, this workflow has been inside XSI with the construction modes for some time already.
GATOR in XSI revolutionary as well as FaceRobot.

de_tomato
08-05-2005, 03:11 AM
They are just applications right?

No, its a religion.:D

sacslacker
08-05-2005, 03:37 AM
for me its XSI. maya has some nice new features, but you know what, most of them have been inside XSI for a long time, the toonshader looks good, but most of the stuff is just catching up to XSI and other apps and they sell it as revolutionary. They see that you can change the point order as something new, this workflow has been inside XSI with the construction modes for some time already.
GATOR in XSI revolutionary as well as FaceRobot.

Yeah, actually it's been in Maya for a long time too, now it's just easier. There are quite a few improvements that people aren't talking about that I feel are very revolutionary. At least, I'm enjoying them. I guess it's just easier to get stoked about a package that I use. Either way you slice it, we'll be seeing some pretty sweet effects coming soon =)

From my understanding FaceRobot is a product in itself and hopeufully available to other packages. I'm pretty sure everyone is impressed with that.

Strang
08-05-2005, 04:50 AM
From my understanding FaceRobot is a product in itself and hopeufully available to other packages. I'm pretty sure everyone is impressed with that.

it is a product in itself. but its not available to other packages as you have put it. it just is easy to work with other DCC apps. it is not something you can get for application "x"

Bonedaddy
08-05-2005, 05:19 AM
No need to have this devolve into a pissing contest, guys.

XSI has a strong showing. Whatever algorithm they came up with for the GATOR stuff is mighty impressive. Certainly a million uses for something like that. There are brute-force ways to do similar stuff in Maya using closestPointOnSurface, but they're slow and clunky. Big ups to Softimage engineers for making it smooth as silk. I suspect this tech is also used extensively in Face Robot. I hope they open it up in the API (or their equivalent of MEL).

Now license the patent to Alias for Maya 8, and I'll be one happy chappy. ;)

sacslacker
08-05-2005, 05:49 AM
it is a product in itself. but its not available to other packages as you have put it. it just is easy to work with other DCC apps. it is not something you can get for application "x"

Symantics my friend. I said the same thing. Sheesh!

I was trying to say that I'm happy that I can use it when it comes out. Looks killer

SheepFactory
08-05-2005, 07:21 AM
Just came back from siggraph , Softimage definitely stole the show again. XSI 5 is phenomenal!

icedeyes
08-05-2005, 08:22 AM
Sheep Factory: Do you have any idea if they recorded the stuff that went on down there?

Hope they did (so they might post it on their site like last year) for us poor guys that are so far away to attend siggraph...

SheepFactory
08-05-2005, 08:45 AM
They might have , i saw a couple of people with video cameras during presentations.

tuna
08-05-2005, 09:20 AM
Sheep: Any news on smaller features that didn't quite make the headlines of the 'super' features? Like improvements to f-curve editor?

Spacelord
08-05-2005, 10:25 AM
Sheep any news on Multiply final gather bounces ? Did Softimage add them this time ?

DaJuice
08-05-2005, 11:20 AM
GATOR, hehehe...

AKA the AttribTransfer SOP in Houdini. It's been in H for a couple of versions... ;)

Rook
08-05-2005, 04:33 PM
OMG IT'S IN HOUDINI!!! ROXORZ!!!111...oh.. oh wait. This is a thread about Xsi....ya, so I guess noboody here cares then.

Anyone know anymore information on Xsi's improved layer editor? There is a brief mention of it the maya translation video. I'm hoping it functions a little more like Maya, with templete like options.

SheepFactory
08-05-2005, 04:34 PM
Sheep: Any news on smaller features that didn't quite make the headlines of the 'super' features? Like improvements to f-curve editor?

Animation editor is the same , I asked and they said next version it will have a big overhaul. But the new keyframe box and the timeline ticks are awesome , those were the only things i was missing from maya.

I also played some with the fast sub surface scattering shader and it was stupid fast , renders as fast as rendering a flat phong surface.

The layer editor does function like mayas , its now easier to create and edit layers.

There are so many other things that make life easier , you will see when its released. This release was all about fixing the workflow issues , which to me is infinitely more important then any fancy new feature.

SheepFactory
08-05-2005, 04:50 PM
LOL, that’s what I was just thinking...
Does anyone know of a price to upgrade from the 4.2 version of Foundations to the 5.0 version of Essentials? Or have they not released all the prices yet? The only upgrade price I can find is the price for upgrading to the foundation version of 5.0...

I heard there will be a promo for $1500. from foundation 4.2 to 5.0 essentials.

shingo
08-05-2005, 04:52 PM
Damn, I was really hoping that the AE overhauil would make it for this release.

On the other hand, from what I have heard, the animation overhaul will be across the board, hopefully including support for layered animation and making the Mixer to work at the scene level.

Animation editor is the same , I asked and they said next version it will have a big overhaul. But the new keyframe box and the timeline ticks are awesome , those were the only things i was missing from maya.

meagane
08-05-2005, 05:51 PM
is there actually any reason for preferring maya over xsi if you do not want to use fluids?

NanoGator
08-06-2005, 03:10 AM
GATOR, hehehe...


Thought you were summoning me!

AA_Tyrael
08-06-2005, 04:31 AM
is there actually any reason for preferring maya over xsi if you do not want to use fluids?

....


No its just that Pixar, ILM, Dreamworks and generally many credited studios are in reality big n00bs that have no idea of 3d an go for maya because it just sounds cool :thumbsup:

But to answer ur question


No need to have this devolve into a pissing contest, guys.

XSI has a strong showing. Whatever algorithm they came up with for the GATOR stuff is mighty impressive. Certainly a million uses for something like that. There are brute-force ways to do similar stuff in Maya using closestPointOnSurface, but they're slow and clunky. Big ups to Softimage engineers for making it smooth as silk. I suspect this tech is also used extensively in Face Robot. I hope they open it up in the API (or their equivalent of MEL).

Now license the patent to Alias for Maya 8, and I'll be one happy chappy.


Because Maya is so well packed, that what they HAVENT thought of, you can implement/Brute Force it ur self.

And i am not gonna say anything else , because a) this will become a flame war
B)XSI users are gonna get sad ...

Strang
08-06-2005, 04:34 AM
i am saddened... it seems you were effective

leigh
08-06-2005, 04:35 AM
....


No its just that Pixar, ILM, Dreamworks and generally many credited studios are in reality big n00bs that have no idea of 3d an go for maya because it just sounds cool :thumbsup:

But to answer ur question



Because Maya is so well packed, that what they HAVENT thought of, you can implement/Brute Force it ur self.

And i am not gonna say anything else , because a) this will become a flame war
B)XSI users are gonna get sad ...

Spoken like a true fanboy :rolleyes:

Unless you have something constructive to add to this thread, rather don't bother.

Strang
08-06-2005, 04:38 AM
Spoken like a true fanboy :rolleyes:

what can i say. it was such a personal attack. i think i may just end it all go into a deep depression and cut both my mouse and keyboard cables.

:cry:



insert sarcasm and be done with it :)

*edit aah darn.. thought she was speaking to me :)

leigh
08-06-2005, 04:41 AM
LOL, I edited the post to make it clear who I was talking to ;)

I just don't see the point of responding to threads about software that you don't use and clearly have no interest in using. It's stupid.

Strang
08-06-2005, 04:43 AM
LOL, I edited the post to make it clear who I was talking to ;)

I just don't see the point of responding to threads about software that you don't use and clearly have no interest in using. It's stupid.

agreed.. CG is too fun to get offensive. new tools. new techniques. new possibilities.

i am no longer depressed. my mouse and keyboard live another day :)


btw. its fun forum surfing with ya!

s

AA_Tyrael
08-06-2005, 04:52 AM
This is the second time today that someone "hits on maya" and as someone that spends a lot of time with i am offended

I dont understand why its wrong to sound like a "true fanboy"



is there actually any reason for preferring maya over xsi if you do not want to use fluids?


I guess since there is no reason to prefer maya , all maya users are fanboys :D
Thats not fair that i get the yelling and he goes away with it..

Strang
08-06-2005, 04:56 AM
first, listen to yourself.

second, his question may have been honest.

and third which isnt that important, you didnt upset me. :)

StefanA
08-06-2005, 08:13 AM
GATOR, hehehe...

AKA the AttribTransfer SOP in Houdini. It's been in H for a couple of versions... ;)

If you have been in the industry a while you know that houdini has about everything that everyone else calls "new freature"... however... how many people today are using houdini??? Can't be that many.

Anyhow... back to caring about XSI... ;)

regards
stefan andersson

Strang
08-06-2005, 08:30 AM
If you have been in the industry a while you know that houdini has about everything that everyone else calls "new freature"...

to add to your comment directed at DaJuice...

while houdini is probably before its time, in the way it handles everything procedurally. where is houdini's hair? :)

i am sure its in the roadmap, but no app is perfect...

Lyr
08-06-2005, 08:46 AM
to add to your comment directed at DaJuice...

while houdini is probably before its time, in the way it handles everything procedurally. where is houdini's hair? :)

i am sure its in the roadmap, but no app is perfect...

Too funny. You can recreate joe atlers shave and a haircut in houdini with a simple network, so simple people have been doing it since before houdini was houdini. Basically you just use particles to plot a course for a riCurve, could probably do it as a miCurve too since houdini is integrated with mental ray as well. Did you get a chance to see houdini's muscle system at siggraph?

ambient-whisper
08-06-2005, 08:50 AM
Did you get a chance to see houdini's muscle system at siggraph?

do tell. i didnt get to see it. :D

Apoclypse
08-06-2005, 09:12 AM
I'm using the 8.0 beta of houdini right now. It seems really cool, I haven't used houdini since 4.0. Is the muscle system in the beta?

meagane
08-06-2005, 09:30 AM
Hey guys, that was really a honest question.
if the core architecture is better than the one from maya (is it really?) and if xsi has more and better features than maya, is it really only a "philosophy" which program to buy?
I know, this question is asked often, so where is the definite answer. Seems that XSI can do all and more than maya in a better, more user friendly way?

SheepFactory
08-06-2005, 09:58 AM
why did this thread turn into how houdini is awesome thread?

yes you can do all things in houdini that is hard to do in other apps but on the flipside simple things to do in other apps take ages to do in houdini. I am sure it is awesome but in order to take advantage of its tools you need to be a td or have access to a houdini td , which most of us do not. XSI on the other hand does have a very artist centric workflow which just keeps getting better , so you houdini users go on plutting your riCurves and chops and pops and whatnot and please stop it with the "oh you could do that in houdini all the time". The last time I checked those functionalities were only in houdini master which is a $16000 package.

Apoclypse
08-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Listen cause it says XSI in thethread title doesn't mean we can'y mention the virtues of another app. Like xsi, houdini is the clearly superior and underated underdog, that gets no attention do to the hype that other apps get. This site doesn't even have a houdini forum (though initially they did), so whenever somebody mentions houdini I think is a good thing.

When did this turn into, if its not XSI I don't care thread. I know mentioning other apps is OT, but nobody seems to mind when it comes to saying XSI's siggraph showing was better than (insert app here).

SheepFactory
08-06-2005, 10:14 AM
Yea the houdini forum was started two times and died down due to lack of activity. By all means go start a houdini 8 is announced thread and keep the buzz going. This thread is to discuss XSI 5.

actually here it is:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=264738&highlight=houdini

Apoclypse
08-06-2005, 10:21 AM
BTW, you DO NOT have to be a td to get hair in houdini. I just downloaded a scene tutorial with hair and their is no programming, just simple nodes connected in a such a logical manner that you kind of wonder about joe alter. It's not even 8 nodes worth of stuff. It's really amazing. However, the trade off is speed ofcourse, its not really that slow just has to be calculated quite a bit. Cloth and other efects are basically the same deal, you just have to know what you are doing, just like you know which node to use when you use shake or even the fxtree. It's all about knowing what goes where and what nodes to use together to get your desired effect. Maya for example does this, except it does all the node work for you and doesn't let you access them as easily as houdini, you really have to be a td to play with nodes and such in Maya since you need to script it with Mel, as opposed to just connecting them together.

Strang
08-06-2005, 10:23 AM
Too funny. You can recreate joe atlers shave and a haircut in houdini with a simple network, so simple people have been doing it since before houdini was houdini. Basically you just use particles to plot a course for a riCurve, could probably do it as a miCurve too since houdini is integrated with mental ray as well. Did you get a chance to see houdini's muscle system at siggraph?

yes i did...

yes it is funny. but i should have known better before saying that. i knew someone was going to get peeved. i said that knowning they have hair in the roadmap.. actually its wire solver. that will be used to make their hair guides.

sorry for the segway.. back to XSI chat!

i think we will be hearing more good stuff from softimage.. as it matures

JDex
08-06-2005, 10:25 AM
Really, knock it off. XS-Houd-May-Ligh-Cine-Max-True-Blen-shut-da-f-up!

Don't get this thread shut down.

Apoclypse
08-06-2005, 10:26 AM
BTW, does anybody know whats going on with the FXTree, will their be anything new in this area, new nodes maybe?

JDex
08-06-2005, 10:34 AM
BTW, does anybody know whats going on with the FXTree, will their be anything new in this area, new nodes maybe?

Didn't see anything on the highlights list... but it would be nice. Feel free to add your thoughts as to what nodes are needed to the XSI wishlist at XSIbase.

http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=13977

gent_k
08-06-2005, 11:27 AM
... anyways... here are some pictures from siggraph

http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Events/more_info/2005/Event_05_SIGG05.htm

mattmos
08-06-2005, 07:45 PM
Well coming very late into this discussion from a web cafe in venice beach, I have to say I was very impressed with XSI this year, they've gone out of their way to address feature requests from current users and implemented some great technologies that will speed up my workflow without a doubt, I can't wait to get back to work!

Little things like the alteration of the move point tool to a more general tweak tool which selects points, edges or polys on mouse-over is going to streamline modelling, shapes seem far easier to set up, and the ability to transfer shapes across to meshes of different point counts is huge, and I know of at least one project in the pipeline on which this could easily halve the amount of work involved.
So a big thanks to the guys at XSI, you've outdone yourselves, can't wait to see what happens next!

Strang
08-06-2005, 11:49 PM
still in california matt?

it was great meeting you! hope to see ya around next year :)

wmendez
08-07-2005, 04:33 PM
Sheep Factory: Do you have any idea if they recorded the stuff that went on down there?

Hope they did (so they might post it on their site like last year) for us poor guys that are so far away to attend siggraph...

I know the training sessions (Both 1039) were all camtasia'd most of the Demo's shown by Soft can be viewed in the NFT below.

http://www.softimage.com/Products/Xsi/v5/nfvt/default.asp

Sheep /Leigh did you make it to the party on Weds? I think I might have missed you.

craigs
08-07-2005, 11:46 PM
I have been an avid maya user for more years than i can remember, and have just watched the demo videos for XSI 5.0, and have been absoulutely blown away, I shall definately be making the transition.

Congrats to Softimage for developing what can only be regarded as some serious next generation tools.

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