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takkun
10-29-2002, 09:21 PM
Chuck or Proton or Philip Nelson, could you please answer me this one question?

I just want to be absolutely sure of Newtek's stance on the development of Lightwave:

Does Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson (as individuals) have any involvement in the current development of Lightwave?

Please answer with a Yes or a No.

Mike RB
10-29-2002, 09:36 PM
Yes. They own parts of the code so they are involved. And you'll never get a clear answer on how much they are involved, which really isnt our business seeing as Newtek is a private company and noone here owns stock or anything. So just sit tight and wait for the next update o' LW. Or, speculate... jump ship, and pay big bucks to re-learn everything when you have a perfectly good working 3d program in front of you that kicks ass.

Mike

takkun
10-29-2002, 09:39 PM
I actually am not worrying about the future development of Lightwave, I just want to know if the people at Luxology are working on the Lightwave code and if not, then what the hell are they doing?

I've heard that Allen and Stuart have always been contracted by Newtek to develop Lightwave (they never were actual employees of Newtek) and I want to know if that is still the case. Maybe Luxology is just a way to organize their personal efforts and develop relationships with other companies.

which really isnt our business seeing as Newtek is a private company and noone here owns stock or anything

Newtek has been voluntarily involved with the Lightwave community, so I see no reason why I shouldn't ask questions about their development. I've got nothing to lose.

KillMe
10-29-2002, 09:45 PM
likewise i would like to know what all those programers at luxology are doing

Cman
10-29-2002, 10:01 PM
Why is it so important to you to know if Luxology is developing Lightwave?

takkun
10-29-2002, 10:02 PM
Luxology is a riddle disguised as a cypher wrapped in a conundrum, lightly coated with enigma.

So I guess the answer to your question would be something called "curiosity".

aurora
10-29-2002, 10:05 PM
For me it would interesting to know becuase why waste the talents of to graphic coding gods if you have chance to use them. And personally I would love to see LW take full claim to what what it is. The best damn package available.:buttrock:

mbaldwin
10-29-2002, 10:18 PM
uh oh. here we go...

policarpo
10-29-2002, 10:26 PM
as far as I can discern...Lux has nothing to do with the development of Lightwave....just look at the last sentence in the quote below...

from their site and straight from the Urologist's mouth:

"Luxology, LLC is an independent technology group consisting of many of the most notable brains in the field of 3D animation and special FX. Founded by Allen Hastings, Stuart Ferguson and Brad Peebler, Luxology employs a team that includes some of the top engineering talent on the planet. Luxology also provides educational and support materials for users of LightWave 3DŽ."

a group of us could say this about ourselves if we joined together to provide educational and support materials for Lightwave 3D too.

no where in their ABOUT message to the public does it say that they are developing Lightwave. Newtek is developing Lightwave. That's it. Words do not lie.

That's my angle and I am sticking to it.



:bounce:

now...everyone...get back to creating Beauty with your awesome piece of software!!!!:airguitar

CTRL+X
10-29-2002, 10:26 PM
No its not a "here we go" again.. it is just , to me anyways, when you invest in a software you invest in the company,, it may not be stock investment , it may not include you in private company information or anything else, I think what is a point of confusion is why lightwave is sooooo awesome with this community on support and awareness, on giving and taking advice, etc etc etc,, but on this one subject of Lux they get vague.

Again buying the software doesnt preclude private info, but it makes you wonder about the future, those in the know may know there is nothing to worry about and laugh over speculation on others parts, but those that dont know....wonder.

And it is only human nature to suspect the worse.

takkun
10-29-2002, 11:01 PM
no where in their ABOUT message to the public does it say that they are developing Lightwave. Newtek is developing Lightwave. That's it. Words do not lie.

Okay, so if you're right, that means that the original creators of Lightwave have nothing to do with the development of Lightwave 8. (unless they are being contracted which goes back to my original question)

So if you're right, that means that Luxology is making their own software (i.e. Lightwave plug-ins or Lightwave replacement) and if they are just making plug-ins then why are they being so secretive?

I'd hate to choose between Lightwave 8 and Luxwave 1 someday. (I really hope they don't call it luxwave... I was just guessing)

MK2
10-29-2002, 11:32 PM
Hmmm... i dont know, but iam sure you have too choose from LW 10 or more bevore LuxiWavi comes... why? They have to develop a new source... a whole new program, while NT just can build up on the existing Prog. Good or bad? Who knows... maybe the "look-and-feel" can change a bit... but hey... aslong its not completly changed who cares?

mk

Cman
10-29-2002, 11:39 PM
Or it could simply be that Newtek has spent many years and lots of cash to build their name as providers of reliable, highend software for image creation, and they don't want anything to put doubt on that. Especially a company contracted to help develop one piece of their software.

Or maybe Lux is developing their own software.

Or any of the other ideas. Either way, I say it don't matter.

On the other side of the fence, I will say I'd like to see prospective features. For example, Rhino has a long list of coming features for software that's not yet released. But as I've been told, secrecy has long been a Newtek marketing ploy.

I'm outta here. :shrug:

Underwurlde
10-29-2002, 11:52 PM
I remember reading a long thread on this subject at the Newtek site about a month ago. I never bothered posting but my thoughts at the time and my thoughts now are ... who cares ?

If luxology are working on LW 8 then great, but if they are not this needn't be a bad thing. I don't know how many of you guys know programmers, but the ones I've met are more competitive and driven than any cgi people I've known. For all any of us know Newtek may have a crack team of programmers doing a much better job of developing LW 8 than luxology could ever do. Thats the point, we don't know, sometimes a fresh pair of eyes on something can lead to better things, so even if Luxology aren't working on LW 8 it needn't be disastrous. If I was at Newtek, I'd be much more concerned with getting my programming staff to concentrate on LW's weak areas ( dynamics, making procedurals animatable, including edges in modeling ) so it can go head to head with Maya Complete and win out, than anything else right now.

policarpo
10-30-2002, 12:00 AM
that would be weird if Lux were developing their own software...it seems like it would be real hard to bring something new to an already saturated market. they certainly like to spin themselves though. ho hum...

i'm just thinking...RealSoft3D...Mirai...both seemingly nice apps but very little market penetration...

hell...maybe what "someone" meant in his quote about Lux doing something Revolutionary was that it will do all the thinking and creating for you.

:P

but who knows...maybe other people want a piece of the mutating pie...it would be wild to do so and a huge uphill battle...but hey...my shaman said eating glass was dangerous...

but what the hell do i know...i'm just a creator who loves the software he uses on a daily basis to create what he considers beauty!

sorry...kind of lost it there!

:D

i'm a ligtwave zealot! yes i am! no one will change me! no matter how bright the light shining in my face is.

KillMe
10-30-2002, 12:11 AM
i wish they would release that little bit more on LW 8 even taht oh its expected in teh next year or something - what i would dearly love is the main feature list so i can smack it ove rthe head of certain friedns of mine who use max and with max 5 jsut out they cant add any new bits onto the end of it now to copy lightwave

anyway nevermind i'm sure LW 8 will eb great when it arrives eith or witout any involvement from luxology

minus
10-30-2002, 12:11 AM
Just wanna pip in that even as users..... NewTek does not owe us an explanation on the workings of it's company.. especially when the company is private. One of NewTek's greatest assets is being a private company unlike Alias which would need to disclose more. -- All we as users are owed... is the products that have been released. -- I see nothing in the past performance of their products that would make me think the next product... (if there is one... and I'm sure there will be) won't be great!

Oh... and dammit.... Why didn't the company that made Mirai do better with their product? -- That software 0wn3d. ;)

takkun
10-30-2002, 12:28 AM
Or it could simply be that Newtek ... build their name as providers of reliable, highend software ... don't want anything to put doubt on that. Especially a company contracted to help develop one piece of their software.

Chuck Baker has said that no other companies are involved in the development of Lightwave. Newtek might be secretive but I don't think they would straight out lie.

So- MK2, Cman, and Underwurlde all agree that users shouldn't care what Luxology is doing. I think that we should care. Let's say that the original creators of Lightwave from 1989-2001 at Luxology make their own software to compete against Lightwave. This could split the Lightwave community and that would affect all of us. But of course, some people would think that's a good thing- another great program to use. Before you know it, Lightwave would resemble 3ds max, instead of having a more integrated solution like Maya and Softimage.

I do think that it is far-fetched that Luxology is making a 3d suite, so what the hell are they making?

takkun
10-30-2002, 12:30 AM
hey minus- it doesn't hurt to ask.

Underwurlde
10-30-2002, 12:50 AM
Felytendect

You're right, if Luxology was creating a direct competitor to LW , it would be worrying. I just think this is unlikely, mainly for the reasons some of the other guys have said. It's a saturated market. When apps like LW and Maya are having to cut costs, and both cost less than $2k it leaves little room for a new competitor, I think thats why Realsoft and Carrara will struggle. Both LW and Maya have years of R n D , plus a huge established user base. It would be very difficult to break into that market. The job ads Luxology have posted asked for Maya and 3ds max scripting as part of the skill set, so this points to some kind of plug in, a la Project Messiah, but I guess time will tell ...

takkun
10-30-2002, 01:09 AM
so this points to some kind of plug in, a la Project Messiah, but I guess time will tell ...

hmm, Messiah started as a plug-in and then became a full-fledged program later... maybe Luxology is attempting to do the same thing

minus
10-30-2002, 01:48 AM
Maybe it doesn't hurt you to ask.... but it would probably hurt NewTek to answer. -- However NewTek gets LW8 developed is up to NewTek and they have shown they they can get great software developed.

Lightwave users would only jump ship to a luxology product if the product is better... so there is nothing to fear really. -- A better product may come a long but that is only good for us as users and I'm sure any product would take a long time anyways.

Meanwhile Lightwaves greatest asset against all other companies is it's community and it's users base. -- Everything can be harmonious in the LW community untill someone comes along and tries to rile a bunch of people up trying to make NewTek look like they are hiding something. -- NewTek has told you they are the sole developers of LW..... so even when they do answer it your not really buying it.... it's like there is some conspiracy to the whole thing and mistrust is only what can come out of it.... meanwhile NewTek is just developing their products.... serving their community.... and doing it all in the ways that they do it. But do you need to get people upset when they aren't clear about how they do it? -- It's a private company man.... just enjoy thier awesome products and trust in them. If something better comes along... then jump ship. No one is staying with any 3D app because they really like the developers. =)

takkun
10-30-2002, 03:57 AM
Maybe it doesn't hurt you to ask.... but it would probably hurt NewTek to answer.

Their silence is also hurting them. Let's say that your 3ds Max friend asks you about Lightwave and that he heard that the original creators had jumped ship and started their own company- what are you going to say, "Yeah, they weren't very good programmers, they were only god-like, I'm sure they have someone better now, I think his name is Jehovah."

untill someone comes along and tries to rile a bunch of people up

I'm sorry if I riled you up or upset you. That wasn't my intention.

PNelson
10-30-2002, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by Felytendect
Let's say that your 3ds Max friend asks you about Lightwave and that he heard that the original creators had jumped ship and started their own company- what are you going to say,

Just ask the what happened to the original developers of MAX. ;->
Unless I'm misinformed, they have been long gone from MAXland for quite some time.

Sorry couldn't resist..

See Ya,
Philip

isnowboard
10-30-2002, 05:54 AM
Just ask the what happened to the original developers of MAX. ;->

Did they leave or were they kicked out?

Discreet is the sole developer of Max and all derivative products. No other companies are involved.

Sorry couldn't resist..

See Ya,
isnowboard ;->

CTRL+X
10-30-2002, 06:11 AM
Did they leave or were they kicked out?

The yost group. the original core developers of 3D studio from the DOS days were let go, when in fact they were the brains, the "gods" of 3d studio origin.

I thought I heard some were brought eventually.

but all of that is hear say

isnowboard
10-30-2002, 06:14 AM
CTRL+X, it was a joke referring to the Luxology people and Lightwave. Did THEY leave or were "THEY" kicked out. Obviously not a good joke. Who cares about MAX :P

rooc
10-30-2002, 09:05 AM
anyway if we want so that Lightwave would be developed and would be improved, we must entrust Newtek. We must give to them the possibility quietly to work, and not to procreate stupid hearing and conjectures.
We do not have another way.

Knoll dont work at Photoshop long time ago but anyway we still have excellent tool.

CTRL+X
10-30-2002, 09:11 AM
Snow.. I mis read,, was going a mile a minuet and zero'd in on the MAX thing and responded quick.


so shoot me

Chuck Baker
10-30-2002, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by PNelson
Just ask the what happened to the original developers of MAX. ;->
Unless I'm misinformed, they have been long gone from MAXland for quite some time.

Sorry couldn't resist..

See Ya,
Philip

What the heck are you doing up at this time of night, Philip? ;)

Chuck Baker
10-30-2002, 09:52 AM
We've responded to this question a whole bunch of times lately, and recently when it gets posted someplace one of the forum users just gets one of our replies and cuts and pastes it.

Yes, our contractual relationships with Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson for the continued development of NewTek's LightWave 3D remain in place and development is ongoing.

NewTek is neither consulted nor informed regarding any statements on Luxology's site, and is not responsible for explaining such statements.

Those of you in the western hemisphere should go get some sleep, and those of you elsewhere in the world should immediately make something cool in Lightwave and post a pic here. :)

takkun
10-30-2002, 11:41 AM
:eek: Wow, Chuck- I never really expected for you guys to answer my question!

Thanks, you guys are amazing.

Timothy
10-30-2002, 02:20 PM
Chuck and crew are very diligent about answering these kind of posts. I am sure that Newtek is the guiding force in LW8 development. I am less concerned about who is working on it and more about how the changes are integrated.

For instance many of the largest improvements in LW lately are accomplished with 3rd party plug-ins that Newtek bought. These plugs are then basicly just placed into the program, seemingly without alot of concern about workflow and interface. Examples of 3rd party plugs showcased as upgrades to LW are: Graph Editor, Spreadsheet, MagicBevel, Bandsaw, etc...

Now not all improvements are 3rd party products, for instance: 128bit Render Engine, UV, Endomorphs, all of the 'gons stuff. If you look how improvements have been made since LW6.5, you will see that Newtek has been moving beyond Allen and Stuart. This is not a bad thing, just because they are the orginators of the old code does not mean that they are the best resources for the current code.

I just hope that LW8 concentrates far more on workflow and interface improvements than adding new features. The workflow in LW has started to fragement a bit in LW7.5. Well that is more than enough for now...LOL

Tim McBroome
www.northstatemedia.com

Ejecta
10-30-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Felytendect
Chuck Baker has said that no other companies are involved in the development of Lightwave. Newtek might be secretive but I don't think they would straight out lie.


Yes it is possible that NT would lie because anyone can lie. Even the mighty NT :rolleyes: I think NT has a good motive to cloak whats going on. Its all about money. NT doesnt want people jumping ship which means loss of money.

Now do I think NT is lying? Dont know. Could be possible but not probable.

Im just saying when money is involved people and companies will do most anything to protect "mines".

Again Im not saying thats whats happening here but if it turned out to be true I wouldnt be suprised in the least.


If Hastings and Furgeson own Lux that means they ARE Luxology. If what NT says is true that Lux has NOTHING to do with the developement of LW then Id say they are no longer working on LW.

Again I hold no brand loyalty. I will learn and use the best tool for the job. People who kiss the ring finger of ANY software company blow my mind.

Variety is the spice of life. That is one of the big reasons I love this business. There is always new things to learn with software and techniques. Keeps you on your toes and weeds out the wannabes who wont push themselves to learn new things making room for those who love doing 3D.

KillMe
10-30-2002, 03:22 PM
yeah i agree some workflow enhancments would be good i for example have about 5 bevel tools etc would be nice if they were all one tool for example magic bevel, bevel++,bevel, smoothshift could even through extrude in for good luck also if edges are implemented would be nice to have that one bevel tool release you selected an edge and bevel that with its own subset of options same with pointsbevel plugin discussed elsewhere - yup let see workflow inhancements =) and new stuff too from who ever is writing the code for it

sorry for going abit off topic

policarpo
10-30-2002, 04:05 PM
You go Ejecta!

Have fun using what works for you! We all do!

And remember the old axiom: Competition breeds innovation and Passion feeds success!

CIM
10-30-2002, 04:59 PM
Newtek has never disclosed what they are doing with the development of Lightwave, so I don't see why ppl. think they are going to start.

I don't know if ppl. forgot, but Luxology said they're developing LW when they first showed up. This is probably just as simple as Newtek wanting to keep it's image as the only developer of LW. When you look at it, it seems the most likely.

Alot of the tools in LW weren't developed by Newtek, but rather by 3rd party developers. I say Luxology working on Lightwave or some next-gen version of LW is the most likely.

Well, all that matters is that LW improves and continues to be the great software it is. I don't care if Santa's elves are developing LW, and I don't see why anyone else should.

CG.p
10-30-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Timothy


Examples of 3rd party plugs showcased as upgrades to LW are: Graph Editor, Spreadsheet, MagicBevel, Bandsaw, etc...


Did you mean "Motion mixer" instead of "Graph Editor"?

The GE is as much LW as the render engine.

aurora
10-30-2002, 07:49 PM
My head hurts now.

Timothy
10-30-2002, 08:09 PM
Did you mean "Motion mixer" instead of "Graph Editor"?

oops.... Yes, sorry.

mbaldwin
10-30-2002, 09:17 PM
I agree with Timothy regarding UI and workflow of tools--I'd love to see it. But since this is a favorite harp of mine, I'll shut up and get back to work.

CG.p
10-30-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Timothy
oops.... Yes, sorry.



Don't be sorry, that was a good post.

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