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yoni-cohen
08-01-2005, 08:40 AM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5659451

pdf: http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/3dsMax8_techspec_LTRppc.pdf


looks rather promising ;)

michaeli
08-01-2005, 08:59 AM
Maya7, then max8, seems like a holiday for CGers!

But wait, I just want my C4D R10!!! Maybe a 25 hours countdown..... :D

Halford
08-01-2005, 09:08 AM
I already see myself in the future with a count down for Max 50.... :D

I hope I'll be able to run Max 8.



Hal.

Jameswatt
08-01-2005, 09:25 AM
MAX 50 in about 50 weeks.....

cpan
08-01-2005, 09:41 AM
and what's new? only the splash i guess :)
wow when i saw maya 7 'partial' features and the presentation at siggraph... hope autodesk will do a rewrite as alias did since it solded from SGI...

fgdf
08-01-2005, 09:46 AM
I don't know.. nothing that blew me away.. Hair fur, cloth all that stuff is included in max 7,5
other tools...I don't know If it's worth of spending 1000$ to update :[

Peddy
08-01-2005, 09:55 AM
i just want a way to get edit poly, and edit poly only, in max 6.

AdrianLazar
08-01-2005, 09:59 AM
wow, what a dissapointment :argh:
i`m soo glad that i switched to an other software :D

Spacelord
08-01-2005, 10:18 AM
Wow Siggraph really brings out the releases !!
Me ,I'm justing waiting to see what XSI brings to the table.

Jameswatt
08-01-2005, 10:20 AM
Down at Autodesk:

Bloke1: Right guys, siggraph is coming up and we need a new version of MAX to release, to compete against MAYA.

Bloke2: But we haven't got much new stuff. To integrate new stuff into MAX takes ages due to the amount of stuff already in there and the disorganised nature of the code. We just released 7.5 about 3 months ago and we haven't even had time to discuss a new version!

Bloke1: OK, ok, we need to buy some kind of plug-ins to nail on to MAX so we can justify and upgrade.

Bloke2: But we've done that with just about every plug-in company out there! Theres no plug-ins left....

Bloke1: Ok, ok, we'll release a new version with nothing new, no-one will notice anyway. And people without subscriptions will have to buy it to get the 7.5 upgrades. And a percentage of comapnies will buy it to stay with the latest version.

Bloke2: What about releasing a new re-write of MAX....

Bloke1: Thats a good idea to leak out that we're doing that. You go and get on to some obscure forum and get the idea out there. That'll keep some people from leaving MAX for another product.

stenosis|kill
08-01-2005, 10:24 AM
lol, and where are the real improvements?

pappuftp
08-01-2005, 10:32 AM
Hair fur, cloth all that stuff is included in max 7,5

thats for those who have subscribed.. If u believe the Rumor , now it seems they have done a few tweaks to biped. .the uv pelting stuff looks appealing..
with cloth and hair included it looks like Max based one man studios have a one stop solution..neways looks ok.. max 5 and 6 were crappy upgrades .. 7 and 8 look OK

Spacelord
08-01-2005, 10:32 AM
Hehehe I love the sarcasm. So funny and so true.

DDS
08-01-2005, 10:39 AM
Hehehe I love the sarcasm. So funny and so true.

:thumbsup:

ThomasMahler
08-01-2005, 10:45 AM
Every year the same old story. Let's wait until it's officially released and everyones tested it, shall we?

zman
08-01-2005, 10:49 AM
coundnt find a single new feature there that is exciting ...
they talk in general ...
"new animation tools ..."
"new modeling tools ..."

well ... BE MORE SPECIFIC !!! what exactly is new ??? and why is it worth the upgrade ??

P.S.
to discreet / autodesk, did you remember to make those booleans useable ?? you's been meanning to do this since max 1.0 ..... havent you ?????????

char_animator
08-01-2005, 10:56 AM
Hmm...

"No longer limited to Biped motions, use the Motion Mixer to mix, edit, trim, filter, time warp, and transition motions from any 3ds Max animation." -> This means full non linear animation system.

"Autodesk® Vault Asset Management"

"Pelt Mapping"

"MAXScript debugger"

"Quaternion/Euler switching"

"Hair and Cloth"

and many other small features.


Upgrade is not $1000. It's $750. I think it definitely worth $750, and if you are buy or on subscription, you need to pay much less.

char_animator
08-01-2005, 10:59 AM
Actually autodesk completely rewrite boolean at version 2.5(I'm not quite sure, but around that time".

Steve Green
08-01-2005, 11:06 AM
I think one of the problems here is that for those who are on subscription, like me, it's a pretty underwhelming release. I suppose it's the double-edge sword of being on subscription, it does kill half the excitement of a major release.

Most of the poly modeling improvements are covered by scripts, and there doesn't seem to be any mention of speed improvements in that area, which is something Max desperately needs.

The Asset Management doesn't really do anything for me, and I would be loathe to trust a new feature in Max to something as important as Asset Management. They don't have a great record of bug-free implementations of new features.

Animation mixing is welcome though as are the changes to Character Studio.

I just wish they would get videos of new features up on the day of announcement, there's nothing like seeing a feature in action (apart from using it)

- Steve

Self-Designer
08-01-2005, 11:12 AM
...I just wish they would get videos of new features up on the day of announcement, there's nothing like seeing a feature in action...

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5659513

In a 2nd thought (after downloading, seeing the files' names and hearing that man says "bla bla bla in version 7.5 bla bla") you're right, there's no version 8 video demstration, bummer.

Steve Green
08-01-2005, 11:18 AM
Hi,

unfortunately those are 7.5 features, so they're a few months old.

Cheers,

Steve

Tak Tak
08-01-2005, 11:19 AM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5659451

Rivendale
08-01-2005, 11:24 AM
I'm guessing the new UVW-mapping tools will be pretty awsome and I'm looking forward to trying them out. Cloth and hair is welcome for me as a non 7.5 user. Sweep modifier is cool, Motionmixer for all animations too.
Maybe not a really exciting upgrade though, I don't get the feeling that Autodesk is trying to push the limits too much. I guess I'm hoping that the next upgrade will be the one that gives us supreme viewport speed and whatnot. For me the viewport speed for larger objects is the main thing holding max back against the competition.

CML

lukx
08-01-2005, 11:35 AM
yep, if autodesk didn't fixed viewport speed and as soon as vray comes into maya I'm leaving max :(.

elvis75k
08-01-2005, 11:41 AM
yep, if autodesk didn't fixed viewport speed and as soon as vray comes into maya I'm leaving max :(.

You better leave 3ds max.. viewport or not. Do it now!!

DanSilverman
08-01-2005, 11:51 AM
I cannot verify any of what I am about to report here, though the information came from a Discreet (now Autodesk) authorized trainer that works for a company (that will remain nameless here ;) ) that helps to develop the MAX training manuals and tutorials. According to this friend, Discreet/Autodesk completely rewrote the kernel for MAX for version 8. This is significant because the current version of MAX, like all that came before it, is running on an old, outdated kernel (v1.2?) that has had the same old bugs since the beginning. This could be worth the update alone (assuming they do a decent job with this.

On top of this I do anticipate that new features will be added and the "old" features should run a lot better as a result of the new kernel. I would guess that the viewport would speed up two as a result of the "modern" coding.

Whatever is going on, we shall know more when more information is released and the actual program is out :) .

Rivendale
08-01-2005, 11:56 AM
yep, if autodesk didn't fixed viewport speed and as soon as vray comes into maya I'm leaving max :(.
Well I don't think it's that serious for me.:) Max is still a solid program in its current state imo and has an edge over the competition in many areas. It's just really annoying when you compare the viewport speed.

3dRaven
08-01-2005, 12:00 PM
Load / save / mix animation not just for Biped FINALLY....hope it aint broken

Steve Green
08-01-2005, 12:06 PM
It's not really just the viewport speed as such (it can be quick in some instances) it's just incredibly variable.

It's more editing meshes with even medium poly counts that is the killer, and it's a pretty sad state of affairs when somebody can write a script like polyspeed to alleviate this but Autodesk can't seemingly get the core to do the same. But, I'll reserve judgment on this until it ships. However it is faster, I would have made a bigger deal of it in the pdf, so I'm not holding out much hope.

Strange that there wasn't mention at all of 64bit from what I can see either - I think that leaves discreet as the only one who hasn't...

- Steve

JeroenDStout
08-01-2005, 12:14 PM
Let's just wait for the demo to try - ...alltough they did take the demo off their site.

<redneck accent>Nuffin' good evah caame fro' changin' to Autode-yeehaa-esk</redneck accent>

Chris Thomas
08-01-2005, 12:15 PM
As per usual I'm both surprised and yet strangely not surprised over the negativity around a 3dsmax release. You have to realise that some of these features have been available to subscription customers (ONLY) for a short while. The idea there is that the tools that are ready to ship ARE shipped as soon as they are ready. So each year we have one minor release, ONLY to subscription customers (Its THE major perk of subscription, plus the savings on upgrading of course) and the real FULL release 7.0, 8.0 etc which is available to all.

So lets treat this as what it is, a FULL release available to all...

If you think of it that way and check out the features from 7.5 and 8.0 you'll see there are some pretty damn major things in there, both for small shops and for bigger studios. From what I can see so far there is..

Cloth
Top notch cloth system (previous know as ClothFX/Stitch). From what I have seen and heard, a VERY capable cloth system.
Hair/Fur
Joe Alters SHAVE and a Hair Cut. Also available on XSI, Maya and Lightwave.NLA Animation!!!
i.e. load in clips, layer them, mix them, re-time them, do time warping effects and so on. Then save out the final animation for re-use, load it in, edit on top of that etc etc!! This is such a BIG wish I can't beleive people arn't whooping with joy?Animation Saving/loading
On custom rigs of all types, i.e. with Custom attributes, list controllers etc. (XML text, so editable)

Biped F Curves
F Curve Editing of Animation !!, not just Quats anymore, quite a major feature for Charatcre Studio reliant animators and studios

Motion capture re-targetting
Onto custom rigs, not just biped anymore

Asset Management and Tracking
Management of assets, allows for releaseing of new models, animation, lighting setups etc across a studio. All major FilmFX studios have this kind of system (custom coded) this is comming free with Max 8.0. It seems to be Autodesk Vault which I understand is the system currently shipped with other Autodesk products i.e. for Autocad, so its probably pretty capable at managing large projects (Building a Skyscraper?)Pelt Mappping
Automatic unfolding of meshes using a spring system!!! Something of an Uber feature for game, film etc. UV Unwrap complex meshes in a fraction of the time. There also seem to be new relax tools to complement the Pelt system, also very cool.

Skin, auto weight to bones
No more fiddling with envelopes, skin will work pretty much straight off, see Maya's default behaviour. In fact why not try out a direct comparisson between Maya's and 3dsmax's skin tools...

MAXScript Debugger
Major tool for MAXScript developers and small tool writes alike. Keep track of your MAXSCripted variables etc

Better DirectX Support
Seems they've expanded and improved the preview of DirectX shaders and also effects in the viewport i.e. motion blur, fog, shadow mapping!! etc (see .fx format)

Mental Ray 3.4 optimizations
including faster final gathering performance, and fast rasterization for first-generation rays

Radiosity Adaptive Subdivision
Adaptive subdivision to the radiosity plug-in, enabling higher quality, more accurate and more efficient radiosity processin

Batch render
Gives users a solution to quickly render a series of stills from different angles, with the option to change render settings and layers in between views.

SceneState
Capture object, layer, material, camera and light information as a "scene state” that can be saved and restored at will

Autodesk Revit & Inventor Interoperability

Etc, Etc, Etc

So... have a read of the Wishlist for Max8.0 topic in the Discreet 3dsmax Forum here, and make a mental list of the most asked for features. Then have a read of the list shown here (and this is just what they have told us about so far, by release (or maybe even tonight in Siggraph) more feature may/probably will make an appearance) and see how many of the top wishes you can tick off from that list + there's a bunch of very cool stuff people didn't even think to ask for.

As for speed, well I understand speed is a major focus of Autodesk on 3dsmax at the momment, there were major speed improvements in 7.0 and 7.5, so I'd expect more of the same in 8.0.

I just find it weird how people think all that is "disapointing"....

lukx
08-01-2005, 12:23 PM
You better leave 3ds max.. viewport or not. Do it now!!
I was kidding. I have to work with max because we got it in work. But I tried Maya and I miss there material editor and other things but when working with Maya I feel safe because I don't have to save every few minutes in case of sudden crash.

Steve Green
08-01-2005, 12:51 PM
Chris,

re: speed

I didn't see much of an improvement in 7/7.5 in the areas that matter to me, i.e. modeling.

Max still crawls when it comes to editing even a medium density mesh, and you're back to detaching and re-attaching bits of the mesh to get round that, or using Polyspeed.

Turbosmooth was welcome, but it was pretty much irrelevant at the modeling stage if editing the base mesh was as slow as treacle. If the modeling speed is much improved in 8 I will be delighted.

As a full release, yes it's a lot better, but if you're on subscription you can knock off half the feature list, and I find it hard to get excited about features that I already have. Plus I already have TL2.

For me, that leaves the exciting stuff as the Mixer and the skinning tools.

I'm not complaining about subs and the point release, they're great value, they do kill the buzz of a major release, it's kind of like reading the screenplay of a film you want to see. But that's the nature of it...

- Steve

kees
08-01-2005, 01:16 PM
Viewport speed and stability are not going to be on the feature list because Autodesk sees these as bug fixes instead of new features. So they are usually not advertised, but that does not mean they did or did not happen for max8 (you'll have to wait and see till the final version is released)


-Kees

Self-Designer
08-01-2005, 01:27 PM
Viewport speed and stability are not going to be on the feature list because Autodesk sees these as bug fixes instead of new features. So they are usually not advertised, but that does not mean they did or did not happen for max8 (you'll have to wait and see till the final version is released)

-Kees

Yet, I must say that if it's a core rewriting, or even only making the viewport much much faster, and they know their clients are willing for that, they might find the 1st opportunity to mention it.

lildragon
08-01-2005, 01:27 PM
yep, if autodesk didn't fixed viewport speed and as soon as vray comes into maya I'm leaving max :(.

One of the main reasons I switched to maya almost 3 yrs ago. The viewport speed is just not up to par with the industry anymore. If the rewrite the core to fix this I'll find myself using max again as a secondary app.

-lild

percydaman
08-01-2005, 01:54 PM
Im also rather surprised and disappointed that we haven't heard any word of a 64bit release. It really makes me wonder how far along they are on it. I would have thought if they had something ready soon, they would have released info when all the other apps did....

erilaz
08-01-2005, 01:57 PM
Sweet. Finally we have asset management! (And just when I'd finished writing my own in maxscript!):D

This looks pretty decent to me. Especially proper fcurves and motion mixing across the board.

Giant
08-01-2005, 02:36 PM
Biped F Curves
F Curve Editing of Animation !!, not just Quats anymore, quite a major feature for Charatcre Studio reliant animators and studios



I read the "new features" PDF. Does this mean we can finally use the Curve Editor to edit tangents etc. instead of using the little TCB Graph area and sliders to adjust our character animation?

cheers!

f97ao
08-01-2005, 02:38 PM
Chris,
I didn't see much of an improvement in 7/7.5 in the areas that matter to me, i.e. modeling.

Max still crawls when it comes to editing even a medium density mesh, and you're back to detaching and re-attaching bits of the mesh to get round that, or using Polyspeed.
- Steve

I always loved modeling and lots of detail so this has always been a serious issue for me in 3dsmax. Thanks for mentioning PolySpeed Steve. :)
I'm working on the last feature before released (I had planned to add it in a point release, but it's just too important). It makes working on very large objects far faster than the already fast PolySpeed. My old 1.3GHz machine can handle 500k - 1mil objects with no problems but I expect my ordered dual core machine to be able to handle 2-3 mil objects in full speed. When this feature is implemented I don't think big objects will be an issue really.

/Andreas

Chris Thomas
08-01-2005, 02:46 PM
"I read the "new features" PDF. Does this mean we can finally use the Curve Editor to edit tangents etc. instead of using the little TCB Graph area and sliders to adjust our character animation?"

Thats what their press release says?

JeroenDStout
08-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Come to think of it, a node based material editor would've been handy as well. I hate hiarchies with a passion.

<goes back to coding his own little nodes in C++, the statement making bird that he is>

trthing
08-01-2005, 03:08 PM
Did they mention a release date?

Rivendale
08-01-2005, 03:58 PM
Why complain really, look at Maya, those users just got Edgeloop lol. ;)

Rivendale
08-01-2005, 04:01 PM
I would also like to say thanks to Autodesk for including the Scene State tools, since I remember wishing for something like that before max 6 I think. They will be handy when rendering different passes. Batch render is also cool.

cpan
08-01-2005, 04:02 PM
Why complain really, look at Maya, those users just got Edgeloop lol
and they have hair, fur, NLA, etc since the first version :P

Mahlon
08-01-2005, 04:11 PM
This looks good. The animation mixer stuff alone is worth the price of admission. What's been a pretty impressive implementation of NLA for biped now available for all. Overjoyed!!

We'll have to wait and see about any speed improvements, but autodesks approach to max's development, I like. It's slow and sure, and definitely makes the app a swiss army knife.

Look forward to seeing more.

Mahlon

Rivendale
08-01-2005, 04:12 PM
and they have hair, fur, NLA, etc since the first version :P
Wow you swallowed my flamebait maggot, hook and all.
just kidding man ;)

opus13
08-01-2005, 04:49 PM
with every release people bitch and moan about how lame the releases are.

have you people who incessantly whine ever gone back to use previous versions? i have to all the time in order to take over others projects. working in 7 is a f-cking godsend in comparison to those earlier versions, 6 included. i can only expect that 8 will become the same.

after looking over the list that was (thankfully) described earlier, as well as the updates in lasty years R7 announcement, i can only find one reasonable request that didnt go unanswered. ONE; and that being viewport speed fixes.

every time a new announcement is made there are a few that constantly popup. some have already popped up in this thread, and there are a few more that i expect to see within 48 hours.

the constant bitching that they are going to switch to anoither package gets so old.... so, please do. you dont add anything even vaguely constructive to the forum or community at large. im sure the grass is greeener on the other side, and all your problems will be answered by someone else.

this is fairly ad hominem, so responses will be largely ignored.

rocarpen
08-01-2005, 05:00 PM
with every release people bitch and moan about how lame the releases are.

have you people who incessantly whine ever gone back to use previous versions? i have to all the time in order to take over others projects. working in 7 is a f-cking godsend in comparison to those earlier versions, 6 included. i can only expect that 8 will become the same.

after looking over the list that was (thankfully) described earlier, as well as the updates in lasty years R7 announcement, i can only find one reasonable request that didnt go unanswered. ONE; and that being viewport speed fixes.

every time a new announcement is made there are a few that constantly popup. some have already popped up in this thread, and there are a few more that i expect to see within 48 hours.

the constant bitching that they are going to switch to anoither package gets so old.... so, please do. you dont add anything even vaguely constructive to the forum or community at large. im sure the grass is greeener on the other side, and all your problems will be answered by someone else.

this is fairly ad hominem, so responses will be largely ignored.

Heh, not only that, but the bitching happens with every app. I just jumped into Max after several years using Cinema 4D, and I can tell you that users everywhere are a cranky bunch. It's frustrating to sit and wait for your company of choice to implement features that other apps have had for years, or to suffer through seemingly insignificant updates.

(I myself jumped to Max for VRay. Thinking of jumping to Maya next, once the VRay port is ready).

Mahlon
08-01-2005, 05:06 PM
I'd be interested to hear from some people working day-in day-out in the games sector about what they think about the NLA, Character Studio improvements and Pelt features.

mahlon

rintintin
08-01-2005, 05:26 PM
NLA would have been nice a few years ago but every games studio I have worked at uses Motionbuilder now. Pelt UV looks good but I never found UV stuff very hard to do in the first place if you know what your doing and these auto solutions usually take some setting up to work well.

Steve Green
08-01-2005, 05:59 PM
Pelts are pretty useful on med-res/next gen characters. I use it a bit via Texture Layers, but it's good that it is in the base package (depending how good the implementation is)

I'd agree that Character Studio seems to be out of favour in a lot of studios, from my experience the animators didn't like that much because of a lack of fcurves and being hard to custom rig. The coders didn't seem to like it much either.

Maya seems to have made huge inroads in the games industry, and I don't see it getting any better for Max. The addition of NLA might stop or slow this, but I doubt you'll get many Maya studios switching.

- Steve

Jc129
08-01-2005, 06:38 PM
The new skining feature sounds promising. Assigning the verts to the bone by default.

AJ
08-01-2005, 06:46 PM
Like most people here, I just hope the speed increases...

If Discreet turned around and said 'Right, here's a new version of Max - there are no new features but you can work/pan/move/rotate the same files at twice the speed', it would be worth double the upgrade.

It's frustrating because I see how other packages handle scenes of a similar size/scale & Max has always looked crippled in comparison...

char_animator
08-01-2005, 06:49 PM
and they have hair, fur, NLA, etc since the first version :P

Who had hair, fur, NLA, etc since the "first" version?

depleteD
08-01-2005, 06:50 PM
Im not really impressed, mind you hte motion mixer for any rig is going to be almost worth it, and the uvpelting is nice but honestly, they like jsut bought texlayers

CaptainSam
08-01-2005, 08:27 PM
It's frustrating because I see how other packages handle scenes of a similar size/scale & Max has always looked crippled in comparison...

Go check out the polygon video on the Softimage site. The guy is moving THIRTY MILLION polygons in realtime. The SoftImage update just leaves poor old Max in the dust, begging for mercy

have you people who incessantly whine ever gone back to use previous versions? i have to all the time in order to take over others projects. working in 7 is a f-cking godsend in comparison to those earlier versions, 6 included. i can only expect that 8 will become the same.

Ive been using Maya 4 on a job the last few months (feature film that was started in that version) and have been perfectly happy, with some minor exceptions. At my other job, Ive happily skipped Maya 6 and 6.5. Maya 7 finally looks like it has enough good stuff to give me reason to upgrade. But then, Maya was a mature application at version 1 and has remained unbelievably stable with every release, which is more than I can say about Max. Not that i dont have lots of things to bitch about in Maya though.

Apoclypse
08-01-2005, 08:55 PM
I would think that getting Max to 64-bit would be really hard without a major rewrite. There is a whole lot of legacy code in Max thats been around since 95, that has probably never seen an update, and the way things are going, never will. What autodesk needs to do is rewrite Max from scratch even create a new product even, and do what Softimage did with XSI, include it with the current version in a dual license and have that new app have strong transition tools so that the migration is inevtiable and users will follow to the new app.

But it seems to me that autodesk is afraid that if they change anything in the program they will loose the stronghold on the market, especially with Maya and XSI having clearly superior products in most respects. I say to autodesk, risk is neccesary for growth, your app hasn't really rown since v4, and even before that every tool added has been a tacked on plugin with almost no real intergration. Max popularity stems from its price point when initially released and its commendable to see that the price really hasn't changed much over the years, but neither has the product. Another factor for its domination in the game industry is that when Max first came out it included the sdk without and extra charge, at that time both Softimage and Alias used to charge hefty prices for the sdk itself. A lot of tools were written for max and many companies have huge pipelines built around this sdk. Max's sdk also has the most open of, in my opinion, all the other apps. Letting you get pretty deep into the core of the app and mucking with it to get results, but this is what introduces instability into the program.

Please autodesk abandon all this crap about updating the kernel and just start from scratch something you should have done back with version 4, which woudl have been the perfect time to have users migrate to a new program ( at that time Maya and XSI were still very expensive, XSI was only available through a Softimage|3d license or something)

char_animator
08-01-2005, 09:05 PM
"unbelievably stable" what? Maya?

Chris Thomas
08-01-2005, 09:23 PM
Apoclypse (member.php?u=320) It takes a HUGE amount of development effort to create a fully feautred 3d app. And your saying that 3dsmax should have abandoned in release v4.0 and release of NextGenMax 1.0 should have been at that point? Think about what your saying...

For that to even have happened the coders that had released v1.0 of 3dsmax would have had to dump dev on anything else and to have moved on to a next gen product immediately. Thats without even giving their recently release product a chance to be used and for its good and bad points to become more apparent. You have to learn from experience, from your mistakes and successes. So, they immediately get to work on a new app, and have that ready by v4.0 of 3dsmax. Its not realistic is it?

Now, if you look at how old Softimage (9.0 I think) was when XSI came out you'll realise how long it takes to write a new 3D app. And, I think most XSI users would agree that until version 2.01+ they were still basically using a beta product. A LOT of standard features were missing, it had super next gen stuff sure, but really basic stuff was missing and even worse much of the new super next gen stuff was just flakey as hell. I had a nightmare on an XSI project for the MILL where bump mapping just did not work. We complained straight to Softimage and they just looked at me like I was talking alien (But they knew, how could you not?...). And the motion mixer, it worked, just about, it was buggy as hell.

So, were looking at an agregate age of 12 releases for a fully fledged XSI to really come to fruition, so lets hope next gen max does not take as long.

CaptainSam
08-01-2005, 09:27 PM
"unbelievably stable" what? Maya?

Thats my experience, after using it professionally for 5 years. It has some issues with lowend graphics cards and sound cards that can cause pain and suffering, but other than that, it may be weeks between each crash and too long to remember between corrupt files. Thats my experience, anyway, ymmv

Edit.
Oh and references tend to be flaky, not as bad as xref, but still... Depends on what you do with the app of course, but it really is a lot more stable than any other 3d app Ive used (meaning XSI and Max).

Ill shut up now, this is gonna turn into a software pissing contest. Todays threads on maya max xsi lightwave etc are all intended for bitching about the upgrade in question

Rivendale
08-01-2005, 09:32 PM
I say to autodesk...your popularity stems from...domination...and...huge pipelines built...deep into the core...mucking with...all this crap...you should...have users migrate to a new...still very expensive...XSI
Here are some misquotations that might be funny.

edit:text removed to avoid bickering about apps. Good night

egz
08-01-2005, 10:33 PM
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/dsh734_brochure_V6A.pdf

On one of the last pages in the above PDF I saw this:

Break the barriers to handling phenomenal amounts
of data. Work with more complex characters and scenes
than ever before. Use Autodesk® 3ds Max® 8 software
on Windows® x64 operating system to dramatically
accelerate your workflow.
3ds Max 8 builds on our promise to deliver state-ofthe-
art animation tools engineered to reduce your time
to market. Stay tuned for more information about our
future 64-bit release of 3ds Max.

So it looks like we will see a 64 bit version pretty soon :thumbsup:

raffael3d
08-01-2005, 10:44 PM
looks like a pretty disappointing update to me, compared to groundbreaking stuff in XSI such as GATOR or FaceRobot.

Chris Thomas
08-01-2005, 11:02 PM
Just noticed this..

"Expression controllers now have full MXS support."

:applause:

So thats all the benefits of the script controller + the expression controller rolled into one. A MAJOR feature for those riggers out there ;)

mindovermatter
08-01-2005, 11:13 PM
Hey All,

I have to admit (I wouldn't feel ethical if I didn't) for me, personally, this release is pretty disappointing.
I can see they have updated a bit, but nothing I use commonly.

I'm pretty frustrated with Autodesks updating/subscription thing. They don't make updates available to everyone (those of us who don't have subscriptions) and then keep pretty much the same features in their full version release as was in the .5 release.
What's the point of having .5 updates when you don't really have .5 updates (to the unsubscribed), and to those who are subscribed they don't really get 1. updates (because most features were in the .5 release). So basically your paying for only one real update anyway.
In my opinion they should either save big features to a 1. release, or just wait until you have a significant update to release with any update.

Make updates cheaper. The crowd your hurting most by having expensive updates (the price of lightwave for this update I believe) ($795?)) are your current customers, basically gouging the hand that feeds them.

This is all my own opinion, so I don't expect people to agree. Just a disclaimer.

have a good one you all,

mindovermatter

Dija
08-01-2005, 11:26 PM
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/dsh734_brochure_V6A.pdf

On one of the last pages in the above PDF I saw this:

Break the barriers to handling phenomenal amounts
of data. Work with more complex characters and scenes
than ever before. Use Autodesk® 3ds Max® 8 software
on Windows® x64 operating system to dramatically
accelerate your workflow.
3ds Max 8 builds on our promise to deliver state-ofthe-
art animation tools engineered to reduce your time
to market. Stay tuned for more information about our
future 64-bit release of 3ds Max.

So it looks like we will see a 64 bit version pretty soon :thumbsup:


Now that´s good news! I´m already able to make scenes with 35 mil polygons and more...let´s see what 64bit max will be capable of.

Signal2Noise
08-01-2005, 11:39 PM
I'm surprised that there was no significant price drop announced to get in line with the other major players. But then again, we are talking Autodesk. ;) I stopped using max at 5 because I couldn't keep up with the cost. I sometimes miss using max (it was one of the first apps I learned almost 10 years ago) and will likely invest again when the prices get reasonable.

Oh well. Have fun with your update boys and girls! :thumbsup:

opus13
08-01-2005, 11:59 PM
Ive been using Maya 4 on a job the last few months (feature film that was started in that version) and have been perfectly happy, with some minor exceptions. At my other job, Ive happily skipped Maya 6 and 6.5. Maya 7 finally looks like it has enough good stuff to give me reason to upgrade. But then, Maya was a mature application at version 1 and has remained unbelievably stable with every release, which is more than I can say about Max. Not that i dont have lots of things to bitch about in Maya though.

Id love to see if all the improvements they did to referencing in 6.5, which was the only thing of interest to me in that upgrade, now actually work. In 6.5 its just a joke, like having references misssing parts of the animation, or all of it, after being reloaded. As Im writing this, Im restarting Maya and loading a scene that crashed while I was unloading a reference.

So they finally gave up on improving their character animation tools, which have remained unchanged for the most part since Maya 1.0, and incorporated MotionBuilders IK instead. Wonder how many releases its gonna take to get all that different code to work properly with Maya

Edit:
Ok, so now Ive reloaded the scene, and the animation on one of the characters has been merssed up. Whoohoo, something fun in every release

1. so thats minor?

2. i thought you skipped v6.5? or do you use different versions in different threads?

Ryan-B
08-02-2005, 12:29 AM
I stopped using max at 5 because I couldn't keep up with the cost. I sometimes miss using max (it was one of the first apps I learned almost 10 years ago) and will likely invest again when the prices get reasonable.

I think the price is comparable to other apps for what you get. They've added cloth, hair, and numerous other improvements. To buy the same features in other packages would probably cost you extra.

CaptainSam
08-02-2005, 12:36 AM
1. so thats minor?

Okay, if you have to use it, thats a major one. Ill give it another go in m7, but for now its on my list of forbidden temptations.

2. i thought you skipped v6.5? or do you use different versions in different threads?

I bumped a shot up to 6.5 because I wanted to use constraint offset/rest position, which is one of the few thing I really miss in Maya 4. And I was stupid enough to unload some references because 1.) the scene was eating up 700mb ram, and 2.) the only way to properly test something is to use it in production. So I do stuff in newest versions as well, but I only do production work in Maya 5 (except on this project, which is done in Maya 4). When Im done with this shot Ill export all the animation to a text file and bring it back in to Maya 4 again.

The reason Im still Maya5 based, by the way, is various issues with sound playback in 6 and 6.5 that dont appear in 5, and not on all sound cards either

char_animator
08-02-2005, 01:07 AM
I dont think $795 is expensive.
If you buy subscription, it is $400 something.
For $400, you get Hair, Cloth, Asset Management and Improved Character Animation capability.

Maya upgrade is $899. They even charged for .5 release..
I think $899 for .5 upgrade(6.5->7) is "expensive".

Apoclypse
08-02-2005, 01:43 AM
Excuse me I should have said that they should have started back in R4.0. I woud have thought that would have happened anyways as the company had changed from kinetix to discreet. My point being like most good companies they know when a rewrite is neccesary. Lightwave, for example, has now rewritten the app TWICE. Alias did this when they moved away from SGI. Softimage went a whole different route and just wrote a whole new program. I still believe autodesk should do this, who knows maybe that is what they are doing already, may explain the lackluster update.

AJ
08-02-2005, 02:25 AM
Quote:
"It's frustrating because I see how other packages handle scenes of a similar size/scale & Max has always looked crippled in comparison... "

Go check out the polygon video on the Softimage site. The guy is moving THIRTY MILLION polygons in realtime. The SoftImage update just leaves poor old Max in the dust, begging for mercy

Ah - what you're doing there is agreeing with me...

xynaria
08-02-2005, 02:44 AM
Ah - what you're doing there is agreeing with me...


Go to bed Luke...you know you've got work in the morning :D

erilaz
08-02-2005, 03:00 AM
I love the eternal cosmic ballet that is application upgrade bickering. :D

"Max 37 now has support for 9.9999999999999890000000000000009e+62 polys and 1024bit processing straight off the new nVidia Geforce Giaga780009"

"Yeah, well Maya had that way back in version 34, and it's still half the price of XSI 10."

"I think I'll stick with photoshop's zbrush integration"

"Which 3d app should I use?"

Hazdaz
08-02-2005, 03:53 AM
64-bit support?
Node-based, or atleast improved material editor?
Vastly improved viewport speed and accuracy?
re-written core that will allow all of the above imporvements?

I must have downloaded the MAX7.5 spec sheet PDF, cuz all the features that would have been expected of MAX8- and should have been required - weren't listed.

Oh, AutoDesk - you have fooled us again in clinging to the hope that you will improve your software, and time and time again we all get disappointed.
And the fact that we still use your antiquated software is cuz we (or atleast I do) love the user interface or some other aspect of your software. But that UI will only keep us around for so long before you say 'screw it' and jump ship.

erilaz
08-02-2005, 03:56 AM
and time and time again we all get disappointed.


Speak for yourself! :D

Dija
08-02-2005, 04:05 AM
64-bit support?
Node-based, or atleast improved material editor?
Vastly improved viewport speed and accuracy?
re-written core that will allow all of the above imporvements?

I must have downloaded the MAX7.5 spec sheet PDF, cuz all the features that would have been expected of MAX8- and should have been required - weren't listed.

Oh, AutoDesk - you have fooled us again in clinging to the hope that you will improve your software, and time and time again we all get disappointed.
And the fact that we still use your antiquated software is cuz we (or atleast I do) love the user interface or some other aspect of your software. But that UI will only keep us around for so long before you say 'screw it' and jump ship.

If you read the link provided by egz, you´ll see that autodesk says there will be a 64-bit version

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/fil...rochure_V6A.pdf (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/dsh734_brochure_V6A.pdf)

and like erilaz said, speak by yourself. I loved when max 7 came out. Just the object display culling was worth the upgrade for me aside the other tools and improved stability.

Hazdaz
08-02-2005, 04:34 AM
If you read the link provided by egz, you´ll see that autodesk says there will be a 64-bit version

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/fil...rochure_V6A.pdf (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/dsh734_brochure_V6A.pdf)

and like erilaz said, speak by yourself. I loved when max 7 came out. Just the object display culling was worth the upgrade for me aside the other tools and improved stability.


I actually tried to load up the PDF, but it b0rked FireFox on me - twice. And I DID read what he said, but the spec-sheet (non-PDF) from AutoDesk's own site doesn't mention 64-bits. And the quote "Stay tuned for more information about our
future 64-bit release of 3ds Max" means nothing.

Stay tuned for how long? Another 6 months (as in MAX8.5)?
Another year?
Throw us a bone here - we have been waiting long enough, geez. No sh*t there is going to be a 64-bit version eventually, but eventually can mean 2 years from now.

It's BS like that, that keeps people still using MAX cuz they think... "oh, in the next release it will get better"... then that release comes out, and you think to yourself "oh, well maybe the x.5 release will fix this or that".

A simple timetable for the 64-bit version would be good enough in all honestly... say, ok, 1st quarter 2006, 64-bit MAX will come out. For anyone that has been using MAX - or actually any AutoDesk product long enough, know that they are fantastic at milking their products (with minimal improvement) to the very end.... infuriating their users the whole time.

I think MAX is an incredibally cool program, but with "issues" that seem to get more apparent with each passing relase - cuz they don't get fixed.

paconavarro
08-02-2005, 06:29 AM
I think i'll be in love with max forever... it's a love and hate relation, bugs... crashes... lack of fancy stuff... apps wars... I guess that, as customer Id love to have more impressive upgrades, and to get just what I wanted... but the application of MAX is fullfilling so many areas, that they must cover too much stuff and someone will always be dissapointed.

MAX has being getting mature in each release... but the industry is pushing the envelope very fast too... so I think Autodesk must get some red lights flashing in the office... 64bits... linux... core rewrite... and tons of things we still need......... patience that's the game here.

DanSilverman
08-02-2005, 08:29 AM
I have a love/hate relationship with MAX as well. I really, really desire to replace MAX in my pipeline, but I find that I simply cannot. There are simply too many custom plugins for the software that simplify my job. Many (if not most) of these plugins are not at all available in any of the other 3D applications. As a result, I am stuck with MAX. I like the software but, as others have pointed out here, it is buggy and relatively slow. And, as we all know, it is expensive.

arneltapia
08-02-2005, 09:48 AM
You better leave 3ds max.. viewport or not. Do it now!!

Don't panic. There's still room for Maya. :D

Pufferfish
08-02-2005, 11:46 AM
How lovely!

Just to inform you all: My dog can beat the hell out of any of your dogs out there...and no.. there is no room for cats!

ShadowM8
08-02-2005, 11:55 AM
I've been using XSI along with Max for a year now, and with the latest announcements I think it only makes sense for me to switch fully to XSI, there is just nothing that max keeps offering that would be worth upgrading and keeping up with that software for now. :(

Chris Thomas
08-02-2005, 12:23 PM
Hazdaz, I have to make some points here....

"I actually tried to load up the PDF, but it b0rked FireFox on me - twice. And I DID read what he said, but the spec-sheet (non-PDF) from AutoDesk's own site doesn't mention 64-bits. And the quote "Stay tuned for more information about our future 64-bit release of 3ds Max" means nothing."

Total nonsense.... That statement says to me "Hey, we are working on a 64-bit Max, but were not ready yet and probably wont be for a while yet (or we'd have anounced it for Max8.0), we'll let you know when its likely as soon as we know ourselves..."

Now if they'd said "Fliberdydang monkey bucket 99994243.23, four lanyard favroutite elvis biscuit" I'd have agreed that it meant nothing......

"I think MAX is an incredibally cool program, but with "issues" that seem to get more apparent with each passing relase - cuz they don't get fixed."

Again a grossely unfair and in-accurate statement. Its fair to say SOME requests do not get addressed in a certain release, or that SOME bugs do not get fixed. But its totally dishonest (and unfair) to suggest this is the norm. I know a lot of people wanted NLA, now they have it, I know that a lot of people wanted Pelt Mapping, they have that too. You can say the same for soooo many new features (Hair, Cloth, the new Expression/Script controllers, etc etc) I know personally of bugs that have pained me in one release that were gone in the next. The dev team only have so much time between releases, its common practice for any dev team to prioritise bugs by their level of severity (crashers first, then major workflow issues, then minor ones etc) so if a particular bug you hate doesn't get fixed, don't take it a personal slap in the face, its either a low priority item, or they simply don't know about it....

Now its easy (and very negative) to just ignore what HAS been improved and just focus on what hasn't. Of course if there was only a tiny improvement then that maight be valid. But if you look at whats been added to max since Max 7.0 to 8.0 then you could see this is not the case.

I mean damn, I'm THE biggest advocate out there for a node based editor in 3dsmax, but I'm not going to ignore all the juicey goodies in 8.0 just because my pet need did not make the feature list. Same for 64bit, I want it and I want it soon enough, but I can wait, its not going to ruin me in any way.

I just think its funny how angry people are about 3D software. Man its a tool, and it makes us money and everyone treats a new software release (and all the improvements they bring) like they've been told their arms are going to fall off....

He he, man (and indeed men/ladies), get over it, life's to short....

f97ao
08-02-2005, 02:45 PM
Yea, there are many things in this release that we wanted for a very long time. NLA and hair has been wanted for quite some time. And well a better max debugger too!

The speed has not been a serious issue for so long, hopefully that will be better in max9 or with 64bit support. Max is pretty fast for large objects in the viewport (but not many), but its' very slow when it comes to updating object you are modeling with. This does not seem trivial to fix though.

I miss better "artistic" modeling tools. What I mean by this is we have good tools for selections, and modeling things like bridge, especially with all the scripts out there. However we are lacking tools like the "m"-paint in xsi where you can easily just move geometry, or the ability to select all subobject modes at the same time, or there was a tool in Modo were you could just drag geometry with a sphere etc. When it comes to "artistic" modeling Zbrush seems to be the only package that is extremely innovative, XSI has also several good innovations I have seen and Silo/Modo has some as well.

But perhaps modeling is not considered as important now when there are so many good modeling packages comming.

A better material editor would be great, but it's not so bad the one we have. A paint engine is one of the things I miss the most. To be able to paint textures directly would be very good. Max is really far, far behind implementations like Bodypaint.

/Andreas

strangelife
08-02-2005, 03:51 PM
Geez... I wish i could rant about this and that, but I'm such a newcomer to the program I have no idea how to work the majority of what's in Max as it is. Maybe when Max10 comes out, I'll have enough to go on to intelligently lay out a gripe or two. But for now, another upgrade is a just more crap for me to learn how to utilize. Sigh...

BradT
08-02-2005, 05:17 PM
Well, I for one am quite excited about the feature list. Two of those features are ones that I asked for and will help my team tremendously. Like many others here, I don't understand the negative attitude toward new Max releases. Seven years ago, we started with Max because it was the ONLY package with the features that we needed and the flexibility to implement the proprietary tools and features that were unique to our requirements. Since then, I've constantly been keeping an eye on other tools, hoping that they would offer something to improve our workflow (and therefore our bottom line). Occasionally I see a feature in another package that makes me think "that seems nice", but I've been around long enough to know that features that appeal to marketing departments are not the most worthwhile features for real production. For example, despite how many ragdolls I saw get kicked in the crotch at last year's Siggraph Evolve event, I haven't had the need to do that even once.... ever. On the other hand, the not very marketable "expose transform helper" has been tremendously useful. So far, Max is still the clear winner for us. Admittedly, our priorities for a tool are probably different than many other's because of the type of work we do (large format dome screen productions), so YMMV.

egz
08-02-2005, 05:34 PM
"Hey, we are working on a 64-bit Max, but were not ready yet and probably wont be for a while yet (or we'd have anounced it for Max8.0), we'll let you know when its likely as soon as we know ourselves..."

But they say: "Use Autodesk® 3ds Max® 8 software on Windows® x64 operating system to dramatically accelerate your workflow." That means we should be seeing it at least sooner than in a year. Unless they plan on releasing max 8 64 bit at the same time as max 9 (or 10) :curious:

DB3D
08-02-2005, 06:02 PM
Do you need to get windows 64 for max 64 to run properly? Or can it utilize the processor without havin windows 64?

Mahlon
08-02-2005, 06:16 PM
Well, I for one am quite excited about the feature list. Two of those features are ones that I asked for and will help my team tremendously. Like many others here, I don't understand the negative attitude toward new Max releases. Seven years ago, we started with Max because it was the ONLY package with the features that we needed and the flexibility to implement the proprietary tools and features that were unique to our requirements. Since then, I've constantly been keeping an eye on other tools, hoping that they would offer something to improve our workflow (and therefore our bottom line). Occasionally I see a feature in another package that makes me think "that seems nice", but I've been around long enough to know that features that appeal to marketing departments are not the most worthwhile features for real production. For example, despite how many ragdolls I saw get kicked in the crotch at last year's Siggraph Evolve event, I haven't had the need to do that even once.... ever. On the other hand, the not very marketable "expose transform helper" has been tremendously useful. So far, Max is still the clear winner for us. Admittedly, our priorities for a tool are probably different than many other's because of the type of work we do (large format dome screen productions), so YMMV.

Well said. We're in much the same position. And we'll add more seats of max as we go along, though we're pretty well stocked now. It's a solid program that has grown steadily and surely over the past couple releases. I only expect it to get better -- and it hasn't disappointed us so far.

Sure there are cool features in maya and xsi and sure I'd like to have them, or something like them in max (like propogating blendshapes). But it would take more than that to make me rail on autodesk about this release. It seems like they're giving us some popular requests. Certainly not going to change our pipe because we're short some features which we can work around or develop anyway. The ones we can't, we'll just have to hope for in the future, and meanwhile devise smart ways to accomplish the same things.

Now interaction speed in viewport (especially with skin, for me) is something that does need to be improved, but I would think that it's being done on some level, whether it be for 64 or present in max 8 itself.

Anyway, cheers
Mahlon Bouldin

toonman
08-02-2005, 06:40 PM
Personally, I'm also very pleased with the new features. NLA, the Vault and scene states are worth alone the upgrade for me. These threads are funny... it's the same thing every year... people complaining about what santa didn't bring them, "I'm leaving this place for good" threats, etc. Some people give some really good feedback and reasons on why they feel that a certain missing feature is important, but most posts are just like "Look what the [other software] users got!! They got this and that!! I wanna!! I only got this piece of crap!!". But well... I can only wait every year to see the same thing.

Me, I prefer to focus on thinking how the new toys (whatever they are) can be applied to my work, and hopefuly, get the most out of them (or even use them in ways they were never meant to be used! :lightbulb

In any case, bring it on discreet! (Umm... AME... whatever...)

P.S. I do agree on the performance issues most people have been bringing up. However, max7 brought to me a noticeable increase in stability and speed. I can only hope for the same with 8...

loocas
08-02-2005, 06:49 PM
I'm a little dissapointed by the lack of new core that would got us rid of, for example, the indexing system in max (you know, vertices etc...) or that'd give us a new, awesome modifier stack where we could feed pieces of data from one modifier to another one, or maybe a new, node based material editor...??

But I have to admit that I'm really looking forward to the MaxScript debugger, the updated Skin modifier, the NLA and since I'm not a subscriber, the Hair&Fur and ClothFX :bounce:

And I still hope they'll come up with some point releases that'd fix some of the well-known issues... :thumbsup:

Mahlon
08-03-2005, 12:47 AM
I was wondering if Face Robot would be able to work in a pipeline with different softwares since Blur seemed to be involved somehow.... good to see this info.... from the Face Robot pdf....

:thumbsup: "How does Face Robot fit into existing pipelines? Face Robot works in pipelines based on SOFTIMAGE|XSI, Maya or 3ds max. Blur Studio in Los Angeles, for example, has used Face Robot successfully for facial animation projects in a mixed software environment."

[EDIT] Don't know why I posted this here really. Please move if necessary. For those disappointed in max 8 features though, it could add a little joy, no?



Mahlon

polygun
08-03-2005, 03:31 AM
Do you need to get windows 64 for max 64 to run properly? Or can it utilize the processor without havin windows 64?

64-bit applications will not run under a 32 bit environment.

Hazdaz
08-03-2005, 04:05 AM
64-bit applications will not run under a 32 bit environment.
And AutoDesk saying "Use Autodesk® 3ds Max® 8 software on Windows® x64 operating system to dramatically accelerate your workflow." does NOT mean that it is a 64-bit app (yet), cuz you can still run your 32-bit apps in 64-bit Windows.... just you won't take full advantage of it.

Until AutoDesk says "3DS MAX 64-bit edition is shipping for Windows 64 on xx/xx/xxxx" all this talk and all these hopes of a 64-bit version are going to be on hold.

dubge
08-03-2005, 01:28 PM
The big thing i'm waiting for is veiwport speed.maybe max 9:sad:

Chris Thomas
08-03-2005, 07:10 PM
Loocas
"I'm a little dissapointed by the lack of new core that would got us rid of, for example, the indexing system in max (you know, vertices etc...) or that'd give us a new, awesome modifier stack where we could feed pieces of data from one modifier to another one, or maybe a new, node based material editor...??"

Whats the problem with the indexing system BTW? You have to refer to verticies, faces etc by some means eh?

3dsmax is actually node based underneath, this means that you CAN actually join together modifiers right now, to pass info between them in a much more complex manner than the Stack allows right now. Its just that an effective GUI for this is not really there in Max. Same goes for materials, its totally possible to write a schematic mat editor, its already been done (SME). The issues is will AMED do it in Max 9 or 10? A core re-write is not needed for these features, just for suitable GUI elements to be added.

I really hope that if a new peice of software is written, that it combine the proceduralism of Houdini, with the ease of use of 3dsmax. If that came to pass the Ease/Power ratio would be bonkers :)

loocas
08-03-2005, 09:10 PM
Whats the problem with the indexing system BTW? You have to refer to verticies, faces etc by some means eh?

- Well, the problem with current Indexing service is the RE-INDEXING... Try having a procedurally modeled something using a bunch of modifiers etc... Then in the root of your constr. history, you delete a edge that has nothing to do with the hierarchy of your constr. history and vuala... everything gets broken and you gotta do it all over again. And don't try to persuate me to NOT do this :D I know I can't, that's why I think it needs a re-work!

3dsmax is actually node based underneath, this means that you CAN actually join together modifiers right now, to pass info between them in a much more complex manner than the Stack allows right now. Its just that an effective GUI for this is not really there in Max. Same goes for materials, its totally possible to write a schematic mat editor, its already been done (SME). The issues is will AMED do it in Max 9 or 10? A core re-write is not needed for these features, just for suitable GUI elements to be added.

- Well, then tell me how?! Since we don't have the GUI for it and since not everybody is a great MaxScripter (btw: I found out today that I can't simply write my own modifier from scratch in MaxScript! how NOT-cool is that?!)...

I really hope that if a new peice of software is written, that it combine the proceduralism of Houdini, with the ease of use of 3dsmax. If that came to pass the Ease/Power ratio would be bonkers :)

- This would be more than a dream-come-true! :thumbsup:

loocas
08-03-2005, 09:13 PM
By the way jmonkey2000, have you ever tried Autodesk Inventor? If not then do so asap! Because such functionality is EXACTLY what I'd love to have in max as a Modifier Stack or rather Construction History!

Tetsuochris
08-03-2005, 10:19 PM
with regards to the dependence on vertex numbering, I wish they updated the morpher modifier - so that it is dependant on topology rather than vertex numbers.

from what i gather xsi has a feature where one can create morph targets and one can then modify the original geometry without causing all your morphs to go nuts....

with the current morpher modifier one cannot add geometry (edges faces etc) without screwing up everything.

loocas
08-03-2005, 10:38 PM
with regards to the dependence on vertex numbering, I wish they updated the morpher modifier - so that it is dependant on topology rather than vertex numbers.

from what i gather xsi has a feature where one can create morph targets and one can then modify the original geometry without causing all your morphs to go nuts....

with the current morpher modifier one cannot add geometry (edges faces etc) without screwing up everything.

True... morphing at the moment is a real pain in the ass... I wish max had such features as modo in this field... i.e.: the Vertex Maps, it's a real pleasure working with any kind of mesh deformations, especially Morphs or heavy mesh editing withoud disturbing the indexing or UVs or whatever... Well, indexing actually doesn't exist in modo in a way it does in max!

XSI adopted very similar tools for morphing from modo in version 5! And I really thing that's the way max should be going.

f97ao
08-04-2005, 08:57 AM
[QUOTE=loocas] [vertex number problems in max]...QUOTE]

The vertex numbers in max are depressing and just silly. Would be awesome if we had something better.

I have actually programmed PolySpeed to be index free so I can have selections that does survive any kind of geometry changes.

I think that I could do a modifier in max that could have layers that survive topology changes, don't expect this to be that hard actually.

So if you have

-extrude
-uvw map
**safe selection
- editable_poly

The Save would record the selections into the geometry, and the Get Safe Selection would just update them. This example would let you destroy whatever in the editable_poly. This would definetly work on modiifers that remain on selections.

It would probably not work on those that use the actual vertex numbers (like morpher). That would be possible to do too, but it's harder and i'm concerned about the performance (basically I would have to rebuild the complete object)

/Andreas

loocas
08-04-2005, 10:20 AM
The vertex numbers in max are depressing and just silly. Would be awesome if we had something better.

Yes, they are... And this is the kind of update I've been waiting for, and still am :cry: , since 3ds max R4. This wish sounds through forums everywhere regarding max and discreet, now Autodesk, won't do anything about that...

What is a new, fancy, polished modifier or hair engine good for if I can't get the Morphing to work properly without any problems? Or if I can't work non-destructively?

Even the hair doesn't work that good, I'm not talking any specific product just in case!, you plant hair, you comb them, make a beautiful hair-cut and then you want to render your beautiful creation... But since MeshSmooth re-indexes everything your hairstyle is doomed and once again, you have to re-do it!

Or what about those constraints that constrain one piece of geometry to another? They stupdily use Vertex numbers to address where the geom. should be. Once you Sub-D the piece of geometry just pops somewhere else :banghead:

This is the kind of update I want, with a few more radical wishes, not new modifiers, not new hair system... etc... :cry:

KillMe
08-04-2005, 10:41 AM
True... morphing at the moment is a real pain in the ass... I wish max had such features as modo in this field... i.e.: the Vertex Maps, it's a real pleasure working with any kind of mesh deformations, especially Morphs or heavy mesh editing withoud disturbing the indexing or UVs or whatever... Well, indexing actually doesn't exist in modo in a way it does in max!

XSI adopted very similar tools for morphing from modo in version 5! And I really thing that's the way max should be going.


those morphing tools in modo were lifted straight from lightwave which has had them for an age =/

loocas
08-04-2005, 10:47 AM
those morphing tools in modo were lifted straight from lightwave which has had them for an age =/

Ok :D we have to give credits to NewTek then... But hey, didn't the Luxology team originally come from NewTek? Didn't they work on the features known in LW? Anyways... I'm not a SW historian, I just wanted to make a point that we should have such a thing in max and I refered to modo, since I know modo better than LW (I don't know LW at all :D )...

Tak Tak
08-04-2005, 10:55 AM
True... morphing at the moment is a real pain in the ass... I wish max had such features as modo in this field... i.e.: the Vertex Maps, it's a real pleasure working with any kind of mesh deformations, especially Morphs or heavy mesh editing withoud disturbing the indexing or UVs or whatever... Well, indexing actually doesn't exist in modo in a way it does in max!

XSI adopted very similar tools for morphing from modo in version 5! And I really thing that's the way max should be going.

Check this out. Here is almost that what you are looking for.
MorphMapper
http://www.rasterize.org/archives/maxscript/index.html

With this you can manage all morph targets in one object and you can always modify your base model(all changes affects to targets). Works with max5 and 6, but I don't know about 7 and 7.5. Test and love it! :thumbsup:

EDIT: If you don't know how to use, just ask me :)

KillMe
08-04-2005, 11:08 AM
yeah modo's devs are the old lightwave team and modo probally was origanlly gonna be lw 8 ah well thigns change eh

but i can see your point about max needing something similar - i'm not a max user ( you might have guessed ) but was just checking out this topic to see what its latest version offered - seems noone is happy with the latest offerings by there company of choice =) well maybe the xsi lot are happy

loocas
08-04-2005, 11:22 AM
Check this out. Here is almost that what you are looking for.
MorphMapper
http://www.rasterize.org/archives/maxscript/index.html

With this you can manage all morph targets in one object and you can always modify your base model(all changes affects to targets). Works with max5 and 6, but I don't know about 7 and 7.5. Test and love it! :thumbsup:

EDIT: If you don't know how to use, just ask me :)

- Hey, thanks! Quite a handy utility :)

However that definitely doesn't solve the problems I've been pointing out ;)

yeah modo's devs are the old lightwave team and modo probally was origanlly gonna be lw 8 ah well thigns change eh

but i can see your point about max needing something similar - i'm not a max user ( you might have guessed ) but was just checking out this topic to see what its latest version offered - seems noone is happy with the latest offerings by there company of choice =) well maybe the xsi lot are happy

- Well... I'm happy with the new stuff in max 8, especially the MaxScript debugger and the NLA! I can't wait to test those out :) However, I've been calling for those drastic changes in max's core for ages... nobody seems to listen...

And believe me, XSI, LW, MAYA, *insert any recently updated 3d soft here* users are bitching as well :) It's always the "Neighbour's lawn is greener" thingy... Screw that, max has many advantages over the competition, this ALSO applies to the competition as well :D so, I think the only awesome application would become the one developed by ALL the sw companies and they could call it: MAYXSILWMOHOUDMAX for example... :D that'd rock! :buttrock:

So far, I'm really looking fwd to testing max 8! :bounce:

Chris Thomas
08-04-2005, 12:11 PM
Yeah Loocas, the changes you mention would be pretty cool. I'm not sure if a core er-write would be necassary to produce what you want, I think it could be handled simply by using a "soft" association rather than the current "hard" scheme i.e.

Currently a lot of modifiers use vert or face indicies to define a selection. This has the advantage of great speed and its also robust in that it can ignore positional changes below it in the stack by other modifiers (adjusted or inserted).

The second method I can think of is the one that HAS been used by newer Autodesk systems, like Skin Wrap? That used envelopes around each pixel to bind verts together, you can change the vert numbers lower in the stack and you can just re-bind the verts to fix any assignment issues. Hoorah!! I understand Maya's wrap deformer is a similar system, but uses vert index numbers and so suffers from the old topolgy change issues were talking about here.

Now, the vert positional mapping system seen in the Skin Wrap tool is very cool, and it would make a morph system more robust, BUT... It would loose the positional robustness and speed benefits that using an index number has. But overall it would be a gain yeah...

Thing is, I don't see Autodesk having the time to update systems like this. The feature is already pretty robust and production proven, and if you work within its limits its actually a very cool system. In fact, I would recomend that you try this....

Create you morph mesh
Create your morph targets
Assign the targets to the morph mesh
Make the morph mesh non-renderable
Create a final head mesh, it can be the same as the morph head, or just very similar
Put a Skin Wrap modifier on the head mesh, and assign the morph mesh as the wrap object.
Bind the wrap mesh and test it to make sure the wrap works well.

You know have a morph system that is topologically robust.

:)

With totally viable work-arounds like this (this was why the Skin Wrap mod was created BTW, just for uses like this) I can't see Autodesk spending much time updating the morph mod.

As you say, maybe something for a new peice of software to take on board. In the meantime I think there are much bigger fish to fry in 3dsmax.

loocas
08-04-2005, 12:32 PM
jmonkey2000 we are still discussing Morphing, which is one of the major bottlenecks in max's current state, but what about the other things?

And why doing all the time-consuming work-around hard work while in other apps. it works perfectly, such as alerady mentioned MODO...

Have you tried modo? They certainly don't use the method you described, so you won't loose any selections with positional change of your topology... nor does it suffer with speed issues...

So why difficult workarounds while we've already seen how it works perfectly elsewhere...

I'm just asking to adopt such a workflow, not to try to re-invent the wheel!

Is that really too much to ask for a price of an update that actually is higher than a full version of modo?! :banghead:

lukx
08-04-2005, 12:45 PM
And believe me, XSI, LW, MAYA, *insert any recently updated 3d soft here* users are bitching as well :) It's always the "Neighbour's lawn is greener" thingy...

hmmm. I didn't noticed so much bitching on Maya forum about v7.

loocas
08-04-2005, 01:01 PM
hmmm. I didn't noticed so much bitching on Maya forum about v7.

This is also called HYPE.

MAYA is being used extesively in film productions... And film productions are considered the most HIGH-END productions in 3d world.

So, MAYA users generally think they have something better, well established, simply cooler if you will...

As opposed to MAX that is generally considered being only good for games... And games are far from being that high-end as film production.

Therefore all the wars against all the sw platforms and sw users.

I personally don't give a damn about which app. is "DA BEST", but lots of people actually do!

I only "bitch" about thinks that delay my workflow or limit me in some way and are not being updated/re-done nor anything else. It's all marketing policy as somebody earlier mentioned.

It always looks better if you write: "We have a full NLA system!" as opposed to "We've updated/changed the indexing service in max." Because most of max users don't actually even know directly of such a thing as "Indexing Service"...

Oh well, I reckon that once you become a power-user of one platform or another, you start seeing imperfections and start to feel constraint by that platform. That's only natural, it's normal and it really doesn't matter what software you use, you are still going to be constraint because, and let's face it, human's brain is totally much more powerful than any software can ever be! And that's the cause of all the bitchin'

Nuff said... gotta do some work today :thumbsup:

lukx
08-04-2005, 01:13 PM
about morph but maya 7 thing http://downloads.alias.com/mkt/gmk_maya7_blend_shape.swf
Now about 3d packages. I also doesn't care which is the best one. At work I have to work with max 7 (arch viz stuff). At home I play with Maya PLE and for sure it aint good for arch viz stuff we're doing. But I'm thinking about future.And someday I would like to work for feature or comercials so what I care is which 3d package I will need to now really well to get a job of my dreams. And I guess it's Maya.

Chris Thomas
08-04-2005, 01:17 PM
Loocas

I am hearing you about the indexing issues you have. I was just suggesting a reasonable workaround to Morphing at least i.e. you can either stick with topologically identical final mesh and morph targets, or go with my suggestion if you want/need more freedom in your workflow right now. The choice is there...

Of course, yeah, it'd be great if the system seen in Modo was also implemented in 3dsmax. Things have moved on since the Morph target was last updated. And new architectural approaches have come about that could indeed make an inprovment in Max. Maybe, it'll be addressed in 9.0, or maybe not?

I'm not sure about Modo, but I would guess it is less able or at least has less features compared to the other apps.I might be wrong there, never really checked it out. I'd guess when it approaches feature parity then it'll be adopted as more of a general tool, whereas right now it seems to be more of a bleeding edge technology demo (I'm not slagging it off, I'm sure its a cool ap, with a lot of new ideas). But either way, I don't really see 3dsmax, Maya or XSI competing with Modo right now, hence Modo's pricing structure, after all, they have to get their foot in the industry door.

f97ao
08-04-2005, 01:47 PM
I don't think people realize the amazing amount of problems a big core rewrite would lead to.
Here are a few things that come to mind:
- all scripts would probably not work
- no plugins would work at first, some would be very hard to rewrite, would probably take 0.5-2 years for some
- soft would surely be seriously buggy at first
- lots of the features we are used to would not work. and i'm talking like 75% of the tools would not be there at first. Character studio, Vray, Brazil etc, would these work? Probably not.
- things like the ui would surely be different, probably for the better but would need relearning.
- Autodesk would risk loosing a serious amount of users, since many simply would move to other finished tools.

So... a complete rewrite, basically a new program would be very costly for all of us. Still, sure this may be the right thing to do, but do not easily throw around requests for it before you know what it would mean.

So what to do.
Well you can rewrite some things, one step at a time. I *know* that they could fix the editable_poly speed by doing a new geometry object. Also by putting restrictions on it, for example making it so that it doesn't work with all modifiers, they should be able to speedit up more.

The viewport when it comes to many objects is trickier to fix. Not sure how to do this, one way that def would work is to have a way better xref that is automatic. So that it automatically reduces size of objects for example.

Also multi threading must be included in object manipulation and turbosmooth etc, that would give about a 50% boost in speed.
Just some ideas...

/Andreas

loocas
08-04-2005, 01:49 PM
I am hearing you about the indexing issues you have. I was just suggesting a reasonable workaround to Morphing at least i.e. you can either stick with topologically identical final mesh and morph targets, or go with my suggestion if you want/need more freedom in your workflow right now. The choice is there...

- Chris, you got me wrong, I really do appretiate your suggestions :thumbsup: However I was rather refering to a general issue than the morph one...

Of course, yeah, it'd be great if the system seen in Modo was also implemented in 3dsmax. Things have moved on since the Morph target was last updated. And new architectural approaches have come about that could indeed make an inprovment in Max. Maybe, it'll be addressed in 9.0, or maybe not?

- I hope so, but I doubt it ;)

I'm not sure about Modo, but I would guess it is less able or at least has less features compared to the other apps.I might be wrong there, never really checked it out. I'd guess when it approaches feature parity then it'll be adopted as more of a general tool, whereas right now it seems to be more of a bleeding edge technology demo (I'm not slagging it off, I'm sure its a cool ap, with a lot of new ideas). But either way, I don't really see 3dsmax, Maya or XSI competing with Modo right now, hence Modo's pricing structure, after all, they have to get their foot in the industry door.

- I'm not some kind of a die-hard modo fan, I only referred to it since I know modo has the features I mentioned. And by no means modo can compete with max in it's complexity and robustness! I didn't even mean to compare anything here, not at all, I only used it as a reference.

So, hope you're not mad at me or anything, we're just discussing stuff right? :D

Btw: I'm rather a die-hard 3ds max user, remember, I offered you my 3ds max videotutorials not so long ago... and have you seen my tattoo :scream:

loocas
08-04-2005, 03:00 PM
I don't think people realize the amazing amount of problems a big core rewrite would lead to.

It worked elsewhere, so why shouldn't it work with Autodesk? Besides, Autodesk is no small developer at all! So I believe they would find a way... :thumbsup:

robinb
08-04-2005, 03:01 PM
A quick comment about non-destructive morphs. You know you can do some editing to the base model in max and have it propogate through to the morph targets without completely destroying them right?

Make a base model. Reference it. Put an edit poly mod on the reference. Edit the model within this edit poly mod to make your morph target. Make another reference of the original object. Add a morpher mod to this one. Pick the other reference as a morph target. Go back to the base object. Edit it. Connect a few edges. Change the vert count. The changes propogate through to the morph target and the one with the morpher on it. The links don't break.

Now it's not totally non-destructive as any new verts won't be in the edited positions on the morph target, but it's a whole lot easier to fix than doing it from scratch.

Yeah sure it would be cool if it was less destructive like modo (or XSI which I haven't seen it working in yet) but it's at least semi-possible as is with a little creative stack editing and reference use.

loocas
08-04-2005, 03:07 PM
Hey, great work-arount robinb! :thumbsup:

See, once you're on a power-user level you know your was no matter what app you're using :thumbsup:

Cheers bro...

Chris Thomas
08-04-2005, 03:47 PM
Yeah RobinB, good point. I've demo'd an idea along yours in my Proceduralism DVD (completed, just creating the box artwork and making final checks ;) ). In my case its a simpler one, where I use the morph modifier to fix an accidental mesh edit. Using procedural techniques and the right nodes you really can work your way around most issues. Loocas, more than anything thats what I was trying to say with my Morph modifier example, with a bit of thinking out of the box you can pretty much always do what you want/need (pretty much).

A new peice of software, with a new architecture that took into account current trends in CPU development, graphical power and work practices would be very cool. But I'd probably expect v1.0 to maybe 3.0 to be very ropey, buggy and poorly featured. So history teaches us.

Oh yeah, sure Loocas, no hard feelings at all, no way. In fact your actually talking sense, you have a valid point, I'm just arguing the finer points, like comparing the pricing of Modo to the upgrade price of Max.

robinb
08-04-2005, 03:50 PM
Hope it helps. :)

I was cursing destructive morphs a while back and the client kept asking for changes to the model and I kept having to redo the morphs so I realised I could probably do something with references to allow me to make overall changes to the head shape even if I couldn't change the vert order so that was the start. Without edit poly I'd have had to make all the changes with edit mesh which would have been a bit of a pain, but workable.

So the base model was more or less ok, but I realised I needed an extra edgeloop inside the mouth for one expression where the lips were really turned out and I was bitching and cursing at myself for not having thought about it in advance then I thought I wonder what would happen if I just added the edgeloop to the base model. I was expecting the morphs to all blow up, but they didn't. The new edge loop went in ok and propogated across to the morph targets. It wasn't where it would have been on the morph targets due to the fact the mouth was quite a different shape, but the rest of the verts stayed where I'd put them. I can't tell you how much happier I was to discover I only had to move about a dozen verts around rather than redo everything.

Tetsuochris
08-04-2005, 04:03 PM
thanks for the suggestions everyone - some great work arounds..

however, i consider facial morphing an integral part of a character animation pipeline and facial animation setup, thus we need this flexibility without having to "work around" it in the ways suggested.

I truly consider non destructive facial morphing as essential - i truely hope some of the autodesk guys are reading this.....

toonman
08-04-2005, 04:45 PM
It worked elsewhere, so why shouldn't it work with Autodesk? Besides, Autodesk is no small developer at all! So I believe they would find a way... :thumbsup:

Which case are you referring to? AFAIR, with Maya, Alias struck a bullseye... with XSI, Softimage faced HUGE problems... it's a matter of timing. I'm all for better tools and performance, but I don't want them at the expense of other things.

Gibbz
08-05-2005, 04:16 AM
are there viewport speed improvments?!

This is really needed, after using maya and comming back to max. Max is plain old sluggish!

JorgeIvanovich
08-05-2005, 12:59 PM
Tha main reason for using Max it's Vray for me .it leaves in the dust other's renders you can setup a prettty nice render and get it done very fast.We do Dilbert's house very fast.

I was Using Maya 6 for a comercial with 15 animals,rhinos and elephants and Maya crashed several times and the reference system work pretty bad.Also Mental ray keep's crashing i have to reload the scene after work and then render it,also i have to convert the textures to mray format to gain memory,i supose that with a 64 bit version and Vray comming to Maya it will be a great program.at the end we were using 6.5 and work better in the render part.

As for Max im using autodesk software since 3ds for Dos and the good part of Max it[s that you can do alot of stuff pretty fast and simple with plugs and i think its for the common guy that hasnt time or pacience to learn and dig into other manuals.

The upgrades are old story max itps a bunch of plugs,my hope its in the 64 bit version if some day comes to people.

Sorry for my crapy English.

mustique
08-05-2005, 04:16 PM
Pelt mapping?..

Is this a feature that makes the app "Unfold3d" obsolete.
if yes, that's cool news for a former max user like me. :buttrock:

provided Iit works the way its advertised.

Steve Green
08-05-2005, 04:24 PM
Yep, that's pretty much how it works.

Obviously the max version has the advantage that you don't need to export first. Texture Layers has something similar, but I guess we'll need to see how good the native Max version is, and how well it scales to higher-res meshes. (Max's auto-flatten is dreadully slow on higher-res meshes compared to DeepUV)

Cheers

- Steve

lukx
08-05-2005, 04:26 PM
let me put this that way... let's say I want to start working freelance. Do you think that it's a good investement to buy 3dsmax 8 instead of Maya 7. I want the most flexible tool to find me a good job (viz arch, games, comercials, features).

opus13
08-05-2005, 04:45 PM
let me put this that way... let's say I want to start working freelance. Do you think that it's a good investement to buy 3dsmax 8 instead of Maya 7. I want the most flexible tool to find me a good job (viz arch, games, comercials, features).

you cant name that many fields an expect a single answer. no app does everything, just like people dont. name 2 fields that you are seriously interested in that are related. i.e., games and commericials are too far apart in terms of workflow and requirements.

its time to pony up and commit yourself to a narrower branch of DCC. after you do that you can start to learn an application... and then you will need to learn 2 to be the most employable that you can be.

archviz = max + autocad
film = maya + xsi
games = max + maya
commericials = max, maya, xsi, + a high end 2d compositor (shake, nuke, etc)

short form commercials are a whole new level of stress and flexibility. the best guys working short form know a lot of applications and are skilled in them. sure, you can get by learning only one or two, but you wont work very much in comparison.

my 2 cents.

Tex3D
08-05-2005, 05:04 PM
I guess I could throw in my 2 cents here.

I still havent mastered all of the features that Max already HAS, so I wont get into the new stuff. The thing that gets me is that Every year we have these "New Version of Max" threads and every year the same gripe keeps popping up from loyal users.

VIEWPORT SPEED

Why oh Why cant AutoDesk/Discreet/Kinetix get it right? My CAD solid modelling programs can zoom in and fly around HUGE scenes with many times more data than Max could even load in almost Real-Time. I simply dont understand how A-Desk can continue to ignore peoples number one gripe?

Every year they boast about how much faster and more powerfull Max is, but it always ends up being smoke and mirrors. Who cars if one or two commands is faster if it takes a few minutes to orbit around a scene.

AutoDesk.. please.. PLEASE quit buying plugins and stuffing them into Max and start doing some Go*****d work on the Viewport!:rolleyes:

Please..

Ok.. Rant Off..

I really do love Max, but unfortunately the slow interactivity is starting to cost me time and money( I design really large conveyor systems for a very large computer company) . I already bought XSI and am attempting to try and teach myself to use it. I just cant continue to gamble on Max anymore.:shrug:

-Dave

And whatever happened to the built in DeppPaint 3D that they pulled a couple of years ago?? *grumble*

loocas
08-05-2005, 05:24 PM
I gotta throw in my ¢2 regarding viewport speed.

I actually noticed that max 7 had much faster viewport responses than max 6... But in the end, that was the only thing I noticed max 7 differed from max 6 so I still keep on using max 6.

Besides, I reckon that a good workflow and organization can come very handy as opposed to having everything in one scene running billions of polys at the same time which sux, no arguing in this... :banghead:

However, there are also things like XRefs, Groups and other workflow stuff that nobody has spoken about yet. They are far from being finished or at least being considered "kinda good" for a large scale production... :cry:

Nevertheless, don't get me wrong, I do love max and I still will continue on using it :thumbsup:

arneltapia
08-05-2005, 06:16 PM
I hope Maya 8 soon. :D
My Max animation and camera matching. :)

http://savefile.com/files/9667530

http://usera.imagecave.com/arnel3d/screenshots.jpg

loocas
08-05-2005, 07:25 PM
I hope Maya 8 soon...

WTF?! :banghead:

jcorpe
08-06-2005, 01:23 AM
While we all want dramatic improvements with each release, sometimes it's the little things you can really appreciate. In Max 6 I was always cursing over the damn snap tools because for some reason I could never get imported AI splines to snap correctly at a vertex level to meshes. I would usually need to move the pivot from the center of the spline to a vertex and then snap it. Now that I've upgraded to 7.5 through subscription, that little snap problem has been fixed and is saving me a lot of time. I've only been using Max for a couple of years, and maybe that's why I am not as disappointed as some with the upgrades, however maybe it time for a little reality check. Think about all those guys and gals who can't afford to lay their hands on high-end 3d software. It wasn't that long ago that I remember wishing for the day when I could learn to use such an expensive program with all the bells and whistles. After reading all the negative posts, you'd think we're all a little spoiled now.

RockinAkin
08-07-2005, 07:34 PM
It's very funny to see people who have no idea what they're talking about putting down max at any opportunity they get - This app loyalty is rediculous. Fact is, max is kicking ass all across the industry left and right - see Blur, Blizzard, Digital Dimension, Animal Logic, Platige.

Max 8 is the upgrade I've been waiting for.

-Biped F-Curves
-UVW Pelt
-Motion capture re-targetting on bones
-Asset Management and Tracking - (HUGE for team projects!)
-Skin Auto Weighting to Bones
-MAXScript Debugger
-Radiosity Adaptive Subdivision
-And many other little improvements

With a feature set like that, I dont think ANYONE has any reason to gripe.
Not to mention the annoucement of the new generation of max - "Scopic"

pappuftp
08-07-2005, 09:13 PM
It's very funny to see people who have no idea what they're talking about putting down max at any opportunity they get - This app loyalty is rediculous. Fact is, max is kicking ass all across the industry left and right - see Blur, Blizzard, Digital Dimension, Animal Logic, Platige.

Max 8 is the upgrade I've been waiting for.

-Biped F-Curves
-UVW Pelt
-Motion capture re-targetting on bones
-Asset Management and Tracking - (HUGE for team projects!)
-Skin Auto Weighting to Bones
-MAXScript Debugger
-Radiosity Adaptive Subdivision
-And many other little improvements

With a feature set like that, I dont think ANYONE has any reason to gripe.
Not to mention the annoucement of the new generation of max - "Scopic"

I second that. Hair n cloth, NLA thru n thru, mray 3.4 are some thing else worth mentioning.. version 7 was the best update since max 4 and v8 looks to join that club..

jugger
08-08-2005, 02:08 PM
It's very funny to see people who have no idea what they're talking about putting down max at any opportunity they get - This app loyalty is rediculous. Fact is, max is kicking ass all across the industry left and right - see Blur, Blizzard, Digital Dimension, Animal Logic, Platige.

i originally didnt intended to join the thread hehe, but i think it wont hurt either.
my first max was 3d studio rel. 3 for dos 11 years back. since then i went throught all the releases and i think being ridiculous unloyal doesnt apply to me.
i like max as a superiour allround package and it pays my bills very well.
i got two things that bother me heavily and drive me off to new shores meanwhile (xsi/maya)

1st thing is (and have ever been) data corruption and inconsistence. i know every max user learned to save into chains of max files for minimizing the risk and the autosave function is great help. still i think the software highest priority should be to handle the data with 100% safety. that is not so in max. now and then files get corrupt, max files itself break inside max (especially with some more advanced rigs and hirachies) meshes get destroyed and so on. all this sums up to a everlasting unsecure feeling working with your stuff. i work a lot in tv/cartoon projects and there is heavily character work involved (CS only). i try to not touch characters after they are rigged or anything. keep thing one step after each other (model, texture, morphs, rig, skin, animation) but naturally clients ask for changes (guess that is what clients like most) and you have to go back and apply changes. its a horror in max to do so as you will loose in any case stuff thats been done. more bad is that there is somehow the chance to "break" a character the more changes you apply. scenes tend to crash a lot suddenly and so on.
of course all this doesnt pop up if you are only in modelling or such.
looking at gator in xsi5 and i dream of being able to do my job about 10 times faster. coming from max i just cant believe that gator really works :) i'm used to see features in demos that look great and have squirks and bumps that makes it unusable in a real production.

2nd thing, and this came up over the last two years or so, is the general autodesk politcs and pricing structure.
after paying a small fortune into this software i find myself in a place where i'm handled as a second class user. i didnt bought the subscription. i just refuse the idea of paying regulary for plugins i could have bought when i need them. i know that they are more expensive outside the subscription, just i like to be and think free. therefore the max 7.5 "update" just killed all my confidence in max and the politics behind it.
i desperately needed shave and i bought it from splutterfish 1.5 years ago (or longer dont remember). it worked just GREAT andi loved it as long as it lasted. just a month or so later they had to withdraw it completely from the marked because of political reasons (shave.exe had a timebomb). now it comes back as part of 3dsmax and it oly available for subscription customers. of course you cant just buy a supscription after you bought the update (max7). so there was NO way for me to get my hands on the product. oh... forgot... i was told i could buy a new license WITH subscription, means pay over 5000euro for shave and a new license i dont need. honestly... that marked the end point for me.
i still remember a max 2.5 update with some cool improvements like displacement mapping that kept me highly excited and confident to invest in the right place. since max5 i just feel ripped of like in a bad supermarket where you leave with some things and paid so much that it makes you think, what the hell did i got for my money.
i also want to qustion the use of the subscription if they announce the same changes (new plugins) for the next "big" update. so you pay once for the plugins in the subscription and then you pay twice for the same plugins in the next big release? uh... somehow it doesnt make sense to me.
maya, xsi, LW, cinema... all other competitors lowered prices. autodesk told me the program is so good and they doing so well, they dont need to make such desperate steps. a year later they laid off a lot of the developer staff. being high nosed doesnt lead anywhere.

but after all i welcome the new features in max8. i love to have finally fcurves on the biped (took us only 7 years or so to get here?) and the new features that open the package more for studios. i still need to pay for the update as i'm not so confident and all rounded in the other programs. when i'm i might just keep max for afterburns sake :)

Yeoh
08-08-2005, 02:44 PM
i also want to qustion the use of the subscription if they announce the same changes (new plugins) for the next "big" update. so you pay once for the plugins in the subscription and then you pay twice for the same plugins in the next big release? uh... somehow it doesnt make sense to me.

This is not how subscription works. For USD$440 a year, you get all the extensions/plugins released during your subscription term AND the version upgrade (the "big" upgrade) if it is released during your subscription term. You don't pay twice for anything. In the long run it turns out being much cheaper than the US$795 upgrade if there's a new release every year. If you plan to keep working in max, when you upgrade it may be worth thinking about subscription (you can get on subscription when upgrading).

Chris Thomas
08-08-2005, 03:03 PM
Subscription is a good for Autodesk as it means they have less admin fee in processing upgrades, its like paying your bills by direct debit rather than as and when they come. Due to the savings in admin for them they pass this on to the end customer via the lower cost, as pointed out above.

Above and beyond that Autodesk also give subscribers the added perk of getting new features as and when they are production ready, so as a subscriber you get two smaller releases per year rather than one big one. You get the new tools before everyone else with the .5 releases and then the other features with the main release. Its a cool system imho and certainly beats both the old release schedule and subscription model.

jugger
08-08-2005, 03:10 PM
thanks for the insights guys. out of curiosity, did they changed their release schedule? it was 15 month as far as i remember, and that makes you pay for two years in order to get the .5 and the big update and therefore paying a bit more than for one non subscription update.

Jameswatt
08-08-2005, 03:13 PM
The main problem with max for me is the continual use of plug-ins for the updates. If you think about it, Autodesk has very little control of the code for large sections of their product. If there is bugs, or they need to move to another version of the plug-in, in many cases they will have to go back to a separate company and negotiate a new version. This also means very little integration with the other plug-ins that the program uses. For instance, if the want a newer version of Reactor, they need to re-negotiate with Havok. How much of the actual source code does Autodesk own? Can they update it themselves?

Upgrading a program by attaching previously available plug-ins is not what I call upgrading a package.

Max 6:

Shockwave Exporter
AEC Objects
reactor 2
Mental Ray

Max 7:

Character Studio
Mental Ray Update
Mobile Graphics Exporter

Max 8:

Asset Management Software
Hair and Fur
Cloth
Character Studio Updates

I think that MAX is increasingly relying on plug-ins for program expansion. I think that some of the non-plug-in additions could be written by 1 coder in a couple of weeks. Infact I created some of the new tools that have been implemented in between my own projects.

I am hopefully not MAX bashing with this post, but trying to justify the reasons for moving package.

Tetsuochris
08-08-2005, 03:29 PM
I wandered if anyone had any news or information regarding the new 64 bit version of 3dsmax? codenamed "scopic" i hear?

Has anyone witnessed the siggraph demonstration first hand?

I am intrigued as to its performance benefits and as to what the new generation of 3dsmax could mean for us artists.

Mahlon
08-08-2005, 03:39 PM
Jugger,
If you're thinking at all about using max in the future, I would say the subscription would be worth it. Can't remember how much Maya Platinum or xsi subscription is but I think it's quite a bit more. Believe Maya's is something like $1299...

Anway, if you pay Platinum over three years, max's intial price (which you can often get for far less) doesn't look so bad. $440 per year is pretty impressive for complete upgrades. People often forget this when they're comparing max and maya prices. max is still MUCH lower in overall cost for the long run.

So, if you can, and you think you're going to use max the tiniest bit in the future, it might be worth taking the plunge and getting into subscription.

Best,
Mahlon

mustique
08-08-2005, 03:41 PM
The main problem with max for me is the continual use of plug-ins for the updates. If you think about it, Autodesk has very little control of the code for large sections of their product. If there is bugs, or they need to move to another version of the plug-in, in many cases they will have to go back to a separate company and negotiate a new version. This also means very little integration with the other plug-ins that the program uses. For instance, if the want a newer version of Reactor, they need to re-negotiate with Havok. How much of the actual source code does Autodesk own? Can they update it themselves?

Upgrading a program by attaching previously available plug-ins is not what I call upgrading a package.

Max 6:

Shockwave Exporter
AEC Objects
reactor 2
Mental Ray

Max 7:

Character Studio
Mental Ray Update
Mobile Graphics Exporter

Max 8:

Asset Management Software
Hair and Fur
Cloth
Character Studio Updates

I think that MAX is increasingly relying on plug-ins for program expansion. I think that some of the non-plug-in additions could be written by 1 coder in a couple of weeks. Infact I created some of the new tools that have been implemented in between my own projects.

I am hopefully not MAX bashing with this post, but trying to justify the reasons for moving package.


Agree. Autodesk needs someone for max like Duncan at Alias.

Yeoh
08-08-2005, 03:54 PM
Jugger: I can't find official word, but it's been a 12 month release cycle since max 5 or 6. Of course, there's the odd chance that sometime in the future, the 12 month cycle may change or get missed. Even so (if my math is right), even at a 15 month cycle, for 5 years of subscription you pay $2200 for 4 releases... as opposed to $3180 at the full upgrade price without subscription. It's still a fair amount of savings.


Jameswatt: The whole plugin issue is definately a big fear for me too. And it's not just the plugins included with max I worry about, there are a number of defunct plugins (like raymax... ouch). But my thought is that since it's in the base product, AME would be more likely to support it in future versions for compatibility with old files (which wasn't true for the Vecta3D renderer unfortunately but I think that was to make it a Plasma exclusive feature). On wondering whether to switch software, just try them all out, compare and use the one you like most, that's the most important thing :).

jugger
08-08-2005, 05:05 PM
On wondering whether to switch software, just try them all out, compare and use the one you like most, that's the most important thing :).

i agree with the money thing. wont change th bad feeling spending it though ;)

what i dont agree with is the word "just" in "just try them all out", as you just cant.
to bring an application to the level where you are really able to judge its usefullness or how much it speeds up (or slows down) your daily job, you almost need to master it.
and learning something like maya or xsi a year long doesnt mean at all that you mastered it!
i put a month in xsi, just to know that i like it, that i know if i would put another two month into it i MIGHT be able to replace max on certain projects. and i also know that the cost will be higher due the mental ray renderer(licensing). but, who is goin got pay me these 3 month ;)
instead of thinking that i have to switch to stay on top of things i rather like the idea that max would have envolved where xsi IS at the moment. instead we see these plugin"updates" .

finally, i guess the points are made and there wont be much shifting in the oppinions. and as long as max doesnt loose a considerable (paying)userbase autodesk wont see little use in changing its politics.

Yeoh
08-08-2005, 06:03 PM
instead of thinking that i have to switch to stay on top of things i rather like the idea that max would have envolved where xsi IS at the moment. instead we see these plugin"updates"

You are of course, correct. I didn't mean to make it sound like switching was a simple affair. If you haven't yet, do head over to the discreet max support forum and post your wishes. If enough users demand an item, hopefully it'll be placed at a higher priority.

Jameswatt
08-08-2005, 06:06 PM
I've spent the last year comparing products, but the thing I've realised is that everything is changing at such a pace that once you learn one piece of software, 2 years down the line it could be obsolete or something comes along which is a lot better.

Modo has impressed me more than any other software manufacturer with their new release. The next release of Modo may kick all other packages out of the field. Softimage is the product I have been learning for the last 9 months and the new update has blown me away. I use MAX at work and will have to keep up-to-date with any new releases until most companies move away from it. Houdini looks like the most advanced package out there, but its not intuitive for me. Motionbuilder looks good. Endorphin looks amazing. Z-brush is an amazing package with a strange organisation of tools.

Maybe I should focus on drawing and painting because this kind of stuff never gets old....

Or c++ code; your never running to catch up all the time and you can make a lot of money!!

Or maybe I'll go and live off the land in a remote region of the world, never to look at a computer again....easy.......

loocas
08-08-2005, 06:27 PM
Or maybe I'll go and live off the land in a remote region of the world, never to look at a computer again....easy.......

Guaaaaahhh... :argh:

Steve Green
08-08-2005, 06:31 PM
I don't think it's always necessary to be up to speed on the latest version of the major apps.

It's been my experience that companies are usually a version or 2 behind the current one anyway. Games companies especially, they are unlikely to switch versions during development of a game if they can help it.

IMHO

- Steve

loocas
08-08-2005, 08:14 PM
Btw: I kinda wonder why nobody has brough up the "strange undo history dissappearing" yet? It hasn't been fixed since... err... since I remember actually :banghead: And that IS a thing that people have been bitching about, rightfully, all the time on the discreet forums...

Well, maybe, hopefully, max 8? but then again, I doubt it... :cry:

jugger
08-08-2005, 09:40 PM
haha loocas, you made my day! :)

maybe as i'm used to the old days where there was no undo and finding myself all the time without a working undo when i need it, i still use hold/fetch/saving huge piles of max files :)
i figure that undo mysterium is just one example of functions that dont work like they should or at least dont work all the time without breaking. that is what makes us maxers really being able to listen to our software and when there is the slighliest misbehaviour we hit save and restart the program :) it's alive, undoubtly :)

Chris Thomas
08-09-2005, 04:28 PM
The Undo feature is an organic thing, its not a one of fix jobs as far as I know. Every feature of Max has to declare itself to the undo system and if one does not, its not undoable. Also if any code slips through with some kind of crazy undo action going on, that could cause the undo system to bork out in some way. Its probably as much fun for the developer to fix it as it is for us to suffer an undo flake-out.

If you notice this happening, try and repro it. When you have, write down all the steps and submit it with a bug report to Autodesk and they can fix it then. Basically, you can complain about a bug, but its much more constructive to try and repro it and submit it as a bug report. Who knows, if you are diligent enough and become super bug squasher, maybe a hand will come from on high and pick you to be a beta tester (faint....) :eek:

jugger
08-09-2005, 05:29 PM
If you notice this happening, try and repro it. When you have, write down all the steps and submit it with a bug report to Autodesk and they can fix it then.

i did that when max4 and then 5 came out. writing papers full of bugs with reproductive steps. send them in throught my dealer and never heard about it again.
neither the bugs (dont ask me now years later, what exactly the bugs where ;) ) where solved.

if you submit a bug for digital fusion you get answered by the developers asking deeper about it and trying to solve your problem.
reading along the xsi mailing list you have softimage staff discussing problems with you.
with max i'm glad i have a good relationship with my dealer who is usually the one who has to suffer in case my license breaks for unkown reason or other glitches.

basically i say other companies try to please their customers, but maybe they can do that easier as they dont have so many of these ;)

loocas
08-09-2005, 06:48 PM
If you notice this happening, try and repro it. When you have, write down all the steps and submit it with a bug report to Autodesk and they can fix it then. Basically, you can complain about a bug, but its much more constructive to try and repro it and submit it as a bug report. Who knows, if you are diligent enough and become super bug squasher, maybe a hand will come from on high and pick you to be a beta tester (faint....) :eek:

You actually weren't being serious, were you? :argh:

I'm on a beta team for cebas's finalRender stage-1, when we discuss bugs and new features the developers listen and try to implement them etc... :thumbsup:

I actually submitted a huge list of missing features in modo 1.xx and? Well, most of them are in modo 201 WOW! :buttrock:

So, I did try to post wish lists and bug reports on the official discreet forums but guess what happened... the only ones who answered were the actual users to either second my suggestions or add their 2 cents... :rolleyes: I see how much Autodesk appretiates their customers... :cry:

lukx
08-09-2005, 08:49 PM
Okey, I myslef also was thinking for some time if it's a good idea to change 3d package (max to maya). I read all posts here and well as everyone knows there is no straight answer. Tool is a tool and that's it.But... I decided to do one simple test. We all aren't happy about max viewport speed. So I created scene with 4000 toruses (8820000 faces) well it was hard to move scene but on my friend Maya 7 also was moving with the same speed (quadro 1100 fx). Rendering in scanline was not a problem it took about 1250 MB. Now Maya...same scene with maya software renderer: first try got an error "Memory exception thrown" second try: about 1400 MB eaten. This test calm my soul that 3ds max isn't that slow and I'm sure that max 8 will be even better.

Rivendale
08-09-2005, 08:56 PM
So I created scene with 4000 toruses (8820000 faces) well it was hard to move scene but on my friend Maya 7 also was moving with the same speed
Did you have wireframe turned on for that test? In my experience max gets really sluggish with wireframe turned on while Maya handles this better. Without wirefram max viewport speed really isn't that bad imo if you have a good gfx card.

CML

lukx
08-09-2005, 09:07 PM
Yep, in wireframe mode Maya crushed Max.

Steve Green
08-10-2005, 08:51 AM
It's interesting comparing Maya and Max viewport speed. Like you say, wireframe in Maya is much quicker, but shaded is not nearly as good.

When editing a mesh, Maya has the advantage that the complexity of the mesh doesn't affect the speed so much. If you are pulling a few vertices about on a wireframe high-poly model, the feedback is quicker than if you are pulling more verts.

Max on the other hand is dog slow regardless. Hiding doesn't help, and you can't freeze a sub-object (I have a nagging feeling that this was possible in 3DS DOS) The only way to speed things up is to detach the sub-section (which I believe is the route that Polyspeed takes, but transparently)

Even on a workstation card, wireframe is worse than Maya's OGL implementation.

However, editing in shaded mode there doesn't seem to be so much of a difference.

Just some observations, and it's something I wish AME would address.

As viewport speed is something that affects a fair portion of their userbase (increasingly so with next-gen games). However, it doesn't sound like it will be addressed until the 64bit release, and then I'm not sure if this is just a case of chucking hardware at a problem.

- Steve

f97ao
08-10-2005, 09:39 AM
Regarding viewport speed (not manipulation speed) you should read this topic I just posted:
I tested 625mil polys in max7. Yes, they are instanced, but was workable.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=266321

And yes Steve, detaching is one of the optimizations of PolySpeed. I split the objects transparently into separate objects, save cached versions of them and also do "live" benchmarks all the time, shutting of some details if it's getting slow. Right now I'm working on splitting the object into even more parts, since it will be way, way faster (I almost cried when I worked on a smooth object 2mil polys in total completely smooth in the viewport). However I cannot avoid the max 32bit memory limit so you can't have bigger objects than you can hold i memory which is a shame.

/Andreas

BabeBro
08-10-2005, 02:37 PM
Have any of you seen this video? XSI appears to have a good grasp pushing the poly limit (non instanced) and this works for both 32 and 64bit.

Gigapolygon Core Vid (http://www.softimage.com/downloadsrv/process.asp?file=/Videos/NFT50/01_Gigapolygon_Core.wmv)

(http://www.softimage.com/downloadsrv/process.asp?file=/Videos/NFT50/01_Gigapolygon_Core.wmv)

jugger
08-10-2005, 02:49 PM
yeah. seen it. found it kinda impessive.
another of thoose things. with max the outstanding great userbase makes the product with scripts and plugins. with xsi you see the goodies coming from the developers itself. and naturally they have better access to the core and to implement features.

mindovermatter
08-10-2005, 04:29 PM
Hey all,

I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't second Jugger's #140 post.

It doesn't happen often (I've learned what not to do), but I still hate the feeling of insecurity from losing my work (especially character work) because of a corrupt file.

I also am really bothered by the political side of things with AME. To me, personally it's a money thing. I understand how the subscription program works, and I think it's dumb. Buying the program isn't enough (which is hard for me to afford in the first place), I have to buy the program and then subscription (right then and there, not after I rebound from the initial purchase) to get any updates at all.
And if I can't afford to buy the subscription (or simply decide against it, for whatever reason) I can't get the updates until they release an full 1. version, and then I'd have to shell over almost another thousand dollars for that (almost a thousand).

For me it's really not about comparing other software packages. I like max's user interface (userface), as it makes sense to me. It follows my logic. I just would appreciate a lower initial investment and then purchase whatever updates I need (for example, I might pass on the 7.5 and 8.0 update, but I may need the 8.5 update) at a reasonable price of what their worth.

Guys, I know it's not realistic, it's just what I, personally, would appreciate. I understand that the current system fits a lot of people, just not me.

Have a good day all.

mindovermatter

loocas
08-10-2005, 05:17 PM
I only wonder if the Autodesk people listen to us... if they browse the forums and read the users' bitching etc...

I wonder if they have conscience of doing all this... problably not, because the new shiny ferrari parked at the front of your new villa at a lonely beach makes up for it I guess... :cry:

Tex3D
08-10-2005, 05:43 PM
I only wonder if the Autodesk people listen to us... if they browse the forums and read the users' bitching etc...

I wonder if they have conscience of doing all this... problably not, because the new shiny ferrari parked at the front of your new villa at a lonely beach makes up for it I guess... :cry:

:sad:

and the Academy Award for Male performance in a drama goes to....:D

-Dave

jcorpe
08-10-2005, 06:14 PM
I know the tech support guys read it. There has been an occasion or two where I've called them and they referred me to the CGTalk forum. Now whether or not the software designers actually read it is another story.



I only wonder if the Autodesk people listen to us... if they browse the forums and read the users' bitching etc...

I wonder if they have conscience of doing all this... problably not, because the new shiny ferrari parked at the front of your new villa at a lonely beach makes up for it I guess... :cry:

loocas
08-11-2005, 02:34 PM
and the Academy Award for Male performance in a drama goes to....

ME! ME! PLEASE PICK ME! :bounce:

jugger
08-11-2005, 03:28 PM
maybe some thing i should add when we talk about pricing and politics.
we european guys are doomed with a fixed price for 3dsmax.
and this price is *tamtaatatam*
4930 EURO +VAT
http://www.cat-zentrum.de/sales/was/index.htm?prices/prices.htm~body

let me just check what this is in $US today... ohh. only $6,131.89

when you dont have conncetions there is no negotiating. and all sellers have the same price. this is without the subscription of course, which comes at another 522euro($650).

i know you can buy max in the US for about $3500.
i know i can buy XSI from a german reseller paying the $US price + shipping.
i bought digital fusion for almost the $US price. i was talking directly to eyeon and they where asking me what i think is a good price as they want happy costumers and they want not the customers being upset about exchange rates. they get their dollars anyway.

why do i have to pay almost twice the price to get the same only as i live in europe and not in the blessed lands?
another point about these so called politics that just pisses me off. in whatever light i look at it.

lukx
08-11-2005, 04:27 PM
Is it possible to buy max in USA and bring it to Europe and use it?

Mahlon
08-11-2005, 04:33 PM
Man, that sounds like a lot. I see why you're upset. What would be an average wage in Euro, say weekly, for a CG artist? The $440 subscription (u.s.) for me is about 3 days of work -- (not freelance work, I'd get a bit more for that), but regular CG job (equivalent to graphics artists salary in provincial city in the States).

Mahlon

lukx
08-11-2005, 04:48 PM
Mahlon double what you get for 3 day in US and you will get the amount we get in Europe in Cyprus working for the whole month.:sad:

loocas
08-11-2005, 05:21 PM
Is it possible to buy max in USA and bring it to Europe and use it?

*This is the best part* NO!

Because the fu*king licence doesn't allow you to!

How I see it:

Autodesk, freakin' fat, miserly, stupid company writes a licence that says: US GUYS PAY ONLY $3K (because we are patriots)

then, some bureau cow re-writes the licence to something like: EU GUYS, YOU HAVE TO PAY TWICE AS MUCH BECAUSE YOU STINK!

:applause: congrats Autodesk!! we all love you's! :love:

jugger
08-11-2005, 05:23 PM
lukx: no its not possible. means, you CAN bring it, but you cant unlock it. US and european SRN are different. and you cant ask for a auth code in france with a US srn. nice :)

mahlon: hmm... i charge for all my 3d work at least 300euor/day initially. i do that with working one week in mind and being able to pay the bills/month. but if you sum up the time you work on something the rate goes easily down to half of that.

lukx
08-11-2005, 05:36 PM
*This is the best part* NO!

Because the fu*king licence doesn't allow you to!

How I see it:

Autodesk, freakin' fat, miserly, stupid company writes a licence that says: US GUYS PAY ONLY $3K (because we are patriots)

then, some bureau cow re-writes the licence to something like: EU GUYS, YOU HAVE TO PAY TWICE AS MUCH BECAUSE YOU STINK!

:applause: congrats Autodesk!! we all love you's! :love:

OH $^%& !!!
I asked because I was thinking about freelancing and trying to find out what's better to get. I checked Maya price and there is no difference in US and EURO. Damn it really isn't fair. I don't care if the product is awesome, if company doesn't respect customer I will never buy it.

loocas
08-11-2005, 07:09 PM
OH $^%& !!!
I asked because I was thinking about freelancing and trying to find out what's better to get. I checked Maya price and there is no difference in US and EURO. Damn it really isn't fair. I don't care if the product is awesome, if company doesn't respect customer I will never buy it.

Oh yeah, that is fair... :beer:

Mahlon
08-11-2005, 08:48 PM
How I see it:

Autodesk, freakin' fat, miserly, stupid company writes a licence that says: US GUYS PAY ONLY $3K (because we are patriots)


I think Autodesk is a Canadian company, right?


i do that with working one week in mind and being able to pay the bills/month. but if you sum up the time you work on something the rate goes easily down to half of that.

I hear ya there. It never quite works out to making the rate you intended to make.

Not sure how they figure prices, but making one euro per hour will buy you more than one u.s. dollar, so one would expect some price difference; Alias seems to have slightly higher euro prices as well.

Not so much as autodesk though.

Mahlon

loocas
08-11-2005, 08:57 PM
I think Autodesk is a Canadian company, right?

I think they are Americans... However discreet was Canadian...

Anyways, does it make any difference to the fact that they, literarly, legally rip-off European customers? :argh:

jugger
08-11-2005, 10:40 PM
Not sure how they figure prices, but making one euro per hour will buy you more than one u.s. dollar, so one would expect some price difference; Alias seems to have slightly higher euro prices as well.

Not so much as autodesk though.

Mahlon

i was in LA a month back. its not cheap there. still i pay here in southern france more euro for common stuff then i paid in LA in $US. and i think LA is already expensive.
of course you can find real cheap places to live in euro land as well.

long time kinetix asked for more money for the localized version of max. everyone could understand that. if you need a special version of a software you have to pay more. nowdays you pay more if you are living in the wrong part of the world ;)

loocas
08-12-2005, 12:17 AM
...nowdays you pay more if you are living in the wrong part of the world ;)

As I said... it's just fair user policy...

I guess they should start charging by the color of your skin...? right? Why shouldn't white guys pay more than black ones? Or maybe Asians should pay at least twice as much as Africans...

No, better yet: If you're around 230cm you pay... mmm... let's say $7000, but if you're slightly above 250cm you are a lucky winner, you only pay $1000, but if you're one of those unlucky ones being high within 100 and 200 cm you have to pay $20000

:banghead:

Disclaimer: I'm NOT a racist! Please take the previous sentences as a satiric sarcasm.

Neil
08-12-2005, 03:12 AM
Maybe now they will do something groundbreaking like...ohh... INTEGRATING A DECENT UNWRAP EXPORTER so that we don't have to keep installing the texporter plugin!!

Maneswar
08-12-2005, 03:19 AM
I have to ask. Do you guys complain about the lower cost of Medical Care, and Education in Europe too... I mean, do you also want to pay US costs for healthcare, pay 100,000 to get a reasonable college degree that you pay for 20 years to be free again? Do you wish you lived under Bush? I think the price of Max is a small concession if you know what I mean. My rent is 1200 a month just for the room. No electricity, no telephone, no heat. Add that and I'm at 1500 a month for rent. Then there's food, about 1000.

I almost pay what I earn. Between rent, bills, and student loan, I pay close to 2200 without food. I make about 3000 +/- because it varies and because I also teach and that comes in differently, not 1 pay check.

Anyway, I think you get the idea that not everything is as simple as the price of 1 product. Compare your entire life expenses and then see if the price is unjustified. If it is, time to take control and not buy certain products, and convince local programmers to develop for your location.

I'm not trying to minimize your concerns, just trying to make it a bit more fair. If your expenses are also as big as mine, then you have a valid criticism.

Maneswar

jugger
08-12-2005, 10:42 AM
hey mane, this gets off topic ;)
but do you basically say that my friend in taiwan should pay $10.000 for max because he needs only $.5 to buy a lunch meal there?
i hope you get the idea ;)

loocas
08-12-2005, 11:03 AM
I have to ask. Do you guys complain about the lower cost of Medical Care, and Education in Europe too... I mean, do you also want to pay US costs for healthcare, pay 100,000 to get a reasonable college degree that you pay for 20 years to be free again? Do you wish you lived under Bush? I think the price of Max is a small concession if you know what I mean. My rent is 1200 a month just for the room. No electricity, no telephone, no heat. Add that and I'm at 1500 a month for rent. Then there's food, about 1000.

I almost pay what I earn. Between rent, bills, and student loan, I pay close to 2200 without food. I make about 3000 +/- because it varies and because I also teach and that comes in differently, not 1 pay check.

Anyway, I think you get the idea that not everything is as simple as the price of 1 product. Compare your entire life expenses and then see if the price is unjustified. If it is, time to take control and not buy certain products, and convince local programmers to develop for your location.

I'm not trying to minimize your concerns, just trying to make it a bit more fair. If your expenses are also as big as mine, then you have a valid criticism.

Maneswar

As I said in the previous post... shouldn't I actually pay $50,000 because I'm a cgtalk member? heh...?

What you said is totally off-the-point man, how come Softimage can manage to put up with Bush and high rents while offering the same price to ALL the customers around the world...?! :rolleyes:

reForm
08-12-2005, 11:18 AM
Hey, doesn't this kind of thing breach the rules of the IMF? I mean, doesn't the concept of FREE TRADE apply to US companies?

I thought if you had a product in country A, the rules of free trade as dictated by the IMF would say that the product should be sold in country B at cost price + shipping/admin costs.

Any lawyers out there willing to take this on?

It seems similar to the court battle levis had with asda here in the uk. Levis kept their prices artificially high, and claimed they had to license shops to sell their jeans... asda bought their levis from overseas and massively undercut the official shops. Levis lost their case in the end...
surely its roughly the same thing!

lukx
08-12-2005, 11:53 AM
Let's sue bastards!

Chris Thomas
08-12-2005, 12:08 PM
Meneswar, your grasp of European cost of living is actually pretty off. We pay a lot for things over here, but in general we do it via taxes rather than directly.

As an example, in the UK our petrol duty is such that the price of petrol has just hit 1 pound for a litre for the first time. I'm not quite sure, but I beleive thats probably at least twice as much as in the US. My home rent is $1800 per month, 2 bedroom apt on the outscrirts of London. My transport costs to commute in is $260 per month.

We pay nothing for our health care at the point of delivery because we've been paying for it from our first job via heavy taxes. Besides that its actually not a great system, ok for emergency stufg and maternity etc (bread and butter stuff) but say for back problems or a heart op you can wait for years in a que to get treatment. For that reason many pay for private health care to get around the insane delays.

Computer equipment costs in real terms roughly twice what it does in the USA. Cars are very expensive over here. A typical 2 bedroom apt in the burbs of London will now set you back roughly $470,000. Its got to the point where its becoming imposible for average earners to buy their own home. People are being forced to rent their entire lives.

And software for some strange reason costs more over here also. My guess is companies do it just to keep pace with the usual levels of exploitation that all other industries employ over here.

Anyway, back on topic.

kawallo
08-12-2005, 12:41 PM
And software for some strange reason costs more over here also.
Some software. If you buy something from Autodesk or Adobe, you pay 70 - 80 % more than in USA, but if you buy something from fair and correct companies like Avid or Alias, you pay the same price + taxes.

loocas
08-12-2005, 01:51 PM
Some software. If you buy something from Autodesk or Adobe, you pay 70 - 80 % more than in USA, but if you buy something from fair and correct companies like Avid or Alias, you pay the same price + taxes.

I wouldn't actually call Adobe unfair! They sell their software on their online store and offer the best prices, so if you buy it from there there's no problem with the price and the product is 100% legal...

On the other hadn If you do this with max, your product will end up being illegal :banghead: That's unfair! :rolleyes:

lukx
08-12-2005, 02:05 PM
So Photoshop I can buy in USA and bring it to Europe?

cgtalkiest
08-12-2005, 02:08 PM
Meneswar, your grasp of European cost of living is actually pretty off. We pay a lot for things over here, but in general we do it via taxes rather than directly.

As an example, in the UK our petrol duty is such that the price of petrol has just hit 1 pound for a litre for the first time. I'm not quite sure, but I beleive thats probably at least twice as much as in the US. My home rent is $1800 per month, 2 bedroom apt on the outscrirts of London. My transport costs to commute in is $260 per month.

We pay nothing for our health care at the point of delivery because we've been paying for it from our first job via heavy taxes. Besides that its actually not a great system, ok for emergency stufg and maternity etc (bread and butter stuff) but say for back problems or a heart op you can wait for years in a que to get treatment. For that reason many pay for private health care to get around the insane delays.

Computer equipment costs in real terms roughly twice what it does in the USA. Cars are very expensive over here. A typical 2 bedroom apt in the burbs of London will now set you back roughly $470,000. Its got to the point where its becoming imposible for average earners to buy their own home. People are being forced to rent their entire lives.

And software for some strange reason costs more over here also. My guess is companies do it just to keep pace with the usual levels of exploitation that all other industries employ over here.

Anyway, back on topic.

living in london is a bitch aint it :sad:

loocas
08-12-2005, 02:23 PM
So Photoshop I can buy in USA and bring it to Europe?

Sure... but if you don't have a trip to the US you can still buy PS from your local reseller for the very similar price! I did so and I'm very happy about it :thumbsup:

Donno about localized versions of PS, it might be a bit more expensive, I'm not really sure... :shrug:

Chris Thomas
08-16-2005, 11:53 AM
The price of Photoshop these days is pretty good imho, especially when you buy it as a part of a bundle i.e. one of Adobe's CS suite packages. Same goes for Macromedia products, mind you I suppose that is going to be restructered if/when Adobe aquire them.

archerx
08-16-2005, 12:54 PM
what would happen if i was to buy a version of max in the USA and bring it to Switzerland ?

CiaránMurphy
08-16-2005, 01:16 PM
What's funny is that there are multiple current threads in cgTalk about this issue... people can see that this is just rotten!

Autodesk are based in San Rafael, California.
Europe is their single largest market (accounts for 36% of revenue)
They don't give figures for the US but all of the Americas account for 41%

No they are free to charge what they like... The only reason the WTO (not IMF) would get involved was if it could be proved that there are illegal state subsidies or "dumping". Essentially it is illegal to sell products at a loss in one market purely with the intention of killing off local industry and then raising prices back up. Autodesk are not doing that... wish they would lower prices just a tad though! :-)

Under EU law however it is illegal to restrict customers from buying an item purely based on where they live within a market. The EU is one market since 1992 (even though it has many nation states), the US is another. So Autodesk CAN NOT stop you from buying in Italy and moving to Finland, or buying from France while resident in Ireland.

This is one area that the EU is policing. Apple is being investigated over iTunes... it's European stores are on a per nation basis and so British customers are forced to buy from Britain, Irish from Ireland etc.... completely illegal and they'll eventually have to set up an "EU" store. The fact that we all have varying tax rates (just like US states) is not any excuse... most companies display pre tax prices and the tax is added at the checkout.

Autodesk (or rather a marketing company on their behalf) sent me a questionaire about a month ago... and you can be sure that I vented spleen on this issue and said that there is a lot of negative feeling about the company in Europe. Hope they actually listen.
It's a sad state... the product is just great even though I tear my hair out when files get corrupted and they refuse to fix long standing bugs, it's sad the bean counters seem to be in control there rather than product enthusiasts.

CiaránMurphy
08-16-2005, 01:20 PM
You'd have read the EULA to find out about Switzerland... I'd imagine that Auodesk's intent is stop anyone from availing of the favourable prices in North America, irrespective of where they are.

Squash-n-Stretch
08-16-2005, 01:40 PM
Let's sue bastards!

:rolleyes:

How eloquent. How much is a student licence of 8 going to cost me?

bsm3d
08-16-2005, 01:51 PM
About Autodesk and US vs EU Market prices there is a thread for that's ;)

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=267385

amitnike
08-23-2005, 01:43 PM
hello everyone.. attended the games tours which autodesk is conducting in seven asian cities and the small demo they threw in at the end .. showed soem amaxing stuff like peltmapping and new efatuers in CS.

look forward for thew launch gjys.. ben the product specialist said he cud give a 5 hr demo on new features in Max 8.

enjoy

Amit

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