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VM
07-31-2005, 02:14 AM
This is a problem I'm having in Maya with Character Sets, I believe... although I'd be damned if I have any clue of what's happening. And I tried everything I could, and read the manual... nothing. No clue.

So this is what happens: I built this character and all geometry is rigid and parented to joints. Full FK, absolutely no IK whatsoever. I added all keyable joints to a Character Set, and all seemed to work beautifully. I'm using auto-key (although I tried keying manually and the problem persists), and I noticed that no matter whether you set keys while the skeleton is selected, or nothing selected (with the Character Set enabled), or the Character Set is selected, keys are placed correctly on the Character Set. All seems to be fine. I play my animation and all's perfect... And then I save and close.

Next time I open the file, every little pose I set is messed up, just a little bit, with almost no rotations being the same as the ones I originally set.

You can download and see the screengrabs of my walk cycle (half-cycle) - 4 poses: before closing the file and after I open it.

http://mustec.bgsu.edu/~virgil/WilliamCharacterSet.zip (http://mustec.bgsu.edu/%7Evirgil/WilliamCharacterSet.zip)

(186 k).

Please help me, or I'll go whakawhaka!!!

Me109
08-08-2005, 04:02 AM
could be something to do with the fact you don't skin anything to the bones.. therefore having no bindpose... try binding meshes to selected bones...

or.. it could be that you havent keyed everything... maybe this will work too....

anyhow

ralphpoon
08-08-2005, 03:08 PM
is there any changes in graph editor before/after saving it?
may be u can post you scene so that we can see what happen..

VM
08-10-2005, 06:29 PM
could be something to do with the fact you don't skin anything to the bones.. therefore having no bindpose... try binding meshes to selected bones...

or.. it could be that you havent keyed everything... maybe this will work too....

anyhow


Me109, that's a good idea, I will try it. Although even if I don't have a bindpose, the skeleton has a default 0-rotations pose, right? that should matter, I guess...
I'm thinking that my character setup could be a problem... although I've tried to work as clean as I could - but I'm not too good with rigging, so... I'm posting the maya file below, so that you guys could see what it looks like. Maybe you could find the problem.

VM
08-10-2005, 06:49 PM
is there any changes in graph editor before/after saving it?
may be u can post you scene so that we can see what happen..

The rotations change, all of them, in the graph editor as well. I'm attaching the maya file... aaaam, ooops, later, can't do it now. I can't connect to my ftp for now - looks to be "under construction". I've contacted my administrator and hope to solve the problem asap.

Me109
08-10-2005, 11:12 PM
I know that when you are working with character sets, and especially with multiple clips in the trak editor... that if you have relative rotations that clips will blend with each other.. however small.. I also suggest that you put your clips into absolute rotations.. this is more likely to hold its position...

however.. if you activate the clip.. all original positions should still be maintained..

hmmm... keep at it mate! :D

VM
08-11-2005, 11:41 PM
Thanks Me109,
I'm not working with clips, just simple rotations. I just did another test with another skeleton that was super-basic, just 2 legs in fact, and the same problem appeared. Could be the Auto-Key... but I keyed things manuallly as well, AFTER auto-keying my walk cycle. I have 0 rotations, but if you manually set keys on them... Also, the problem is that ALL the joints move, not only the ones with 0 rotations or the ones around them... or below them... Joints that clearly had specific rotations on them, that were clearly keyed and behaved OK before I close the file, move as well. Everything moves!
Anyway, this is the Maya file:

http://mustec.bgsu.edu/~virgil/zamolxes.zip

I hope the server will be working right.
Also, I managed to sort-of-solve-my-problem... by making a selection set of all the joints I need to set keys on. And now I have 1 shortcut that deselcts everything, selects my Set, and sets a key on al those bastards. It works for me, although I haven't touched the AutoKey... I don't really understand how this AutoKey works. I hear people complaining about it.
Of course, if I'd need to animate with clips... I'd need the Character Set... Not good mate, noooot gooood.

ruukki
08-12-2005, 01:05 PM
Thanks Me109,
I'm not working with clips, just simple rotations. I just did another test with another skeleton that was super-basic, just 2 legs in fact, and the same problem appeared. Could be the Auto-Key... but I keyed things manuallly as well, AFTER auto-keying my walk cycle. I have 0 rotations, but if you manually set keys on them... Also, the problem is that ALL the joints move, not only the ones with 0 rotations or the ones around them... or below them... Joints that clearly had specific rotations on them, that were clearly keyed and behaved OK before I close the file, move as well. Everything moves!
.

Could it be something basic, like maybe a skeleton structure is not suitable for being a character set? This is a long shot, I know, but I'd add some controls to it and try again. At least no problems with those.

Me109
08-12-2005, 11:56 PM
Ok i can see what you are trying to do.. you want to animate the low resolution skeleton and have all animations transfered to you high resolution skeleton... and at the moment you are using parent constraints on selected joints to acheive this??

Ok.. this is probably never going to work for you... I've done this before.. but the skeletons were identical... in your case i think that the additional bones in this setup are not doing what they are supposed to because they in effect have no incoming control....

you could go about this in a couple of ways.. first is to name the appropriate bones in each rig identically... ie.. collar for collar.. r_arm for r_arm.. create character set for each of the skeletons.. in this case only out of the named bones on each skeleton.. and then use the trak editor to transfer your animation...

The other way is to use Retarget skeleton.. this is probably what you should do..
under the attributes of each bone you will have to label the appropriate joints identically between each skeleton.. ie the above example.. and you should then be able to Retarget the low resolution rig to the high... this in effect this will achieve what you are trying to do with parent constraints... but in a more fashionable ane elegant way.... ( the high res rig will move in step with you low )

Try that..

VM
08-16-2005, 07:42 PM
Could it be something basic, like maybe a skeleton structure is not suitable for being a character set? This is a long shot, I know, but I'd add some controls to it and try again. At least no problems with those.
A skeleton structure not suitable for a character set? that would be pretty bad, but I do hope that's not the case, character sets should work with any skeleton structure; I mean, it's maya we're talking about, right? allmighty and flexible... (yeah, I know, it's not always the case...)
I'm not sure what's happening, but I tried with a basic skeleton - in my oppinion, a CS should work perfectly on a superbasic (simplest of simples) skeleton, no matter what. It's actually just unacceptable, for me, the idea that I'd have to rearrange my skeleton, for instance, in order to make the CS work.
But anyway, I'm working now with this Selection Set, instead of a Character Set... and it's all I need. Well, for now anyways. I'm thinking to get Maya 7, but I'll have to dig into how well Motion Builder really is integrated... I wouldn't want to get into a similar problem - like "oops, but that kind of skeleton won't work within the Motion Builder workflow". Unacceptable, I'm telin' ya :)

VM
08-16-2005, 08:00 PM
Ok i can see what you are trying to do.. you want to animate the low resolution skeleton and have all animations transfered to you high resolution skeleton... and at the moment you are using parent constraints on selected joints to acheive this??

Ok.. this is probably never going to work for you... I've done this before.. but the skeletons were identical... in your case i think that the additional bones in this setup are not doing what they are supposed to because they in effect have no incoming control....

you could go about this in a couple of ways.. first is to name the appropriate bones in each rig identically... ie.. collar for collar.. r_arm for r_arm.. create character set for each of the skeletons.. in this case only out of the named bones on each skeleton.. and then use the trak editor to transfer your animation...

The other way is to use Retarget skeleton.. this is probably what you should do..
under the attributes of each bone you will have to label the appropriate joints identically between each skeleton.. ie the above example.. and you should then be able to Retarget the low resolution rig to the high... this in effect this will achieve what you are trying to do with parent constraints... but in a more fashionable ane elegant way.... ( the high res rig will move in step with you low )

Try that..

woooooooooooooooooooow! you're awsome Me109!!! I never thought of Retargeting, never used it, never messed with it. You're absolutely right, I have to go this way, not with constraints.
anyway, as I already said in the previous posts, I made a character set out of the simplest skeleton, with no constraints - only 9 joints (4joints*2 legs and a parent joint). that's all. how much simpler can you get? and same problem appeared. I was thinking it could have been the AutoKey... but then I also keyed stuff manually (well, after first using the autokey while animating). It just doesn't make any sense.
I don't want controllers on my rig actually, nor IK (although I'm looking forward to the full superintegrated IK of MotionBuilder :love:), I just need to have a skeleton that has extra joints, for deformations and stuff, and a simple skeleton to drive it. I'll be binding to the complex skeleton, and selecting the simple skeleton to animate. I've got sort of an obsession against puppets cluttered with tons of controllers, I guess. My ideal is to only have the geometry present - like in Sega Animanium.
thank you for the retargeting tip again, You're the BEST!!!

show_tobe
08-18-2005, 05:42 PM
i think i disable help you

Me109
08-19-2005, 04:41 AM
no worries zamolxes... happy animating to ya!

VM
08-19-2005, 07:42 PM
i think i disable help you

What do you mean?...

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