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mdunakin
07-28-2005, 08:11 AM
I keep trying my best to figure out how exactly do they edit plant life objects?
Since it appears they aren't really objects, then where do I go to create my own plants FROM SCRATCH?
And what I mean is, that they let you select (what limited plants they give you on the disk)
a plant and THEN you get to "adjust" the thickness of the stems and branches.
"I" want to create plants like that too!

Are they made up of just alpha maps and image maps, or are they made from objects or what?
I can't seem to find where this info is in the manual or the other sources.

Like, how do they make so that stems are stems and branches are braches and so on?

I just want to make some desert plants!

Point me to a page number or something, and I'll be happy :)

thanx tons..................md :)
P.S. I've noticed that most (MOST) of the tutorials that are on their web site,
deal with images and such, that in reality "don't" exist, like the tutorial where
they show you combining two plants and the images they show, don't even
exist in ANY of the folders that come on EITHER CDs.
What am I suppsed to do or where do I find said images?

dueyftw
07-28-2005, 09:46 AM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-220111.html\ (http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-220111.html)

Dale

mdunakin
07-28-2005, 10:21 AM
Thanx for that info, it's late, so I can't read them all, I'll do it tomorrow.
But, where do I find this "Botanica" plugin/program?
I'd be very much interested in such a thing.
I'm spoiled on other plant editors, that actually let you CHANGE the entire plant,
like how many branches and leaves and all the other things you'd want to change,
but these don't seem to exixt in Vue, no?

Thanx a zillion for your great reply, also..........md :)

Mike.H
07-28-2005, 11:34 AM
since you already have v5I you have botannica, it´s a part of v5I, and available as a module for v5esprit.

now botannica wont allow you to create 100% unique plants like you´re used to do in xfrog or onyx it only allows you to edit existing plants and yes you can combine several plants.

but you do know that v5I ships with 50+ plants so i woudnt call it that limited and e.on will release new plants in the up and comming cornucopia site/store.

Creaing plants from scratch and getting more control over them has been a long requested feature of vue, hopefully vue6 will atleast give us alot more control over the plants, but this is just my own hopes and wishes, e.on hasnt posted any information about future improvements to the plant editor, but one can hope :)

doonee
07-28-2005, 07:07 PM
If its ok, I hereby drop my thread 'plant editing' from yday and join this one here, since I find the subject is identical.

I agree with mdunakin that plant editing options seem somewhat limited, and it
would be interesting to know whether 'deep editing', by which I mean editing not with the editor, or beyond the editor etc. is possible.

I spent some hours trying to tweak a some rainforest trees out of the default maples
and cherries, and wasn't too happy with the results.

For example, i tried to avoid any branching off until the top 15% of the tree, and
the 'falloff ' parameter only let me do that i a rather limited way, very much depending
on the particular species. I couldnt get rid of the Y shape of most trunks or stems, which annoyed me a bit.

btw:
Can i create subsets myself, or are they to be taken as given (nor not given) ?

Wabe
07-28-2005, 09:11 PM
Ok, let me try to summarise what i know about Vue plants.

First the bad news. It is not possible to create a plant from scratch. Not even new subsets. You have to start from an existing spezies. Full stop.

The good news is that when you create a forest or other field of plants - with ecosystem or manually (not by copy/paste of course) - you get different plants of the same species. Each single plant is unique and different from the others. I think no other application can do that. This is SolidGrowth - the name of this technique.

Now there are some really talented people that are capable to make amazing things with the plant editor.

One is Dreampaint. Here is the link to his page with free plants for Vue. Great stuff i think.

Dreampaints site (http://dreamp.club.fr/plante1.htm)

Another is new - FrenchKiss at Renderosity. She is working on a set of European trees right now. And bushes (i hope). Go to Renderosity, Vue gallery and look for her last image (I think it is in the Hot20 there). It will be on the market hopefully soon. I test it for her and already can say that it is excellent.

Additional leaves materials you find in several places. Good is always to look at Renderosity free stuff. Especially a guy called Varian has some excellent leaves materials. Old but still in use by a lot of people.

What i tried out with good results is to use plants for other things. I did some not too bad looking water splashes by simply modifying leaf materials and exchange them with other textures. For these things SolidGrowth is ideal. But i am sure there is a lot more potential - fire, smoke etc etc. Only a talented guy must look after that.

doonee
07-28-2005, 10:38 PM
Hey Wabe ..
Thanks for all the useful info !
These are truly nice plants over at these links ! :)

No doubt the ecosystem feature is unique, which is, I guess, the precise reason why people are curious about the plant editor, wanting to know *all* about it because they mean to use the results inside the VUE ecosystem.
Its thus a natural question to ask for any person interested in the ecosystem while not beeing intimately familiar with Vue, talented or not.

What md was asking, I guess, is how these plants are 'written', hoping to for a loophole somewhere to get where he wants.

If I can add another question, I'd like to know how things are with the import/conversion of 'foreign' plant models and their use in the ecosystem.
Is that possible ?
Has anyone tried this out and how did it go ?
I could imagine theres a polygon issue, among other things ....

Again, many thanks for the all the info, which helps a lot.
And no harm done, i hope, cause Vue is a great program and big fun!
:)

rgds
d

mdunakin
07-28-2005, 11:07 PM
OK, now that I'm back, I see there are a lot more replies to this thread.
Good :)
I had to install a new C Drive, from my old 40gig to my new 120gig.
Was running out of room, and that was just for programs, not even content!
Well, other then the content that comes with some of these programs, that is.
As I don't like to have to put in extra CDs just to get to extra content.

Anyway, back to this subject.
I have already been in contact with e-on and their upcoming Cornucopia and they told
me they don't even know if there WILL be any "desert" plants in the collection.
Appearently, the whole planet thinks that the only plants on earth are either trees,
or under water plants and only certain types of these plants, as some have brought up
the fact about trying to get branches to fall off at a certain hight length or whatever.
I tried for litterally hours with a couple of few different trees and other sorted plants
they already have made, and just could NOT get the branches to be farther up on the
trunk from the base of the tree, and I couldn't ADD any more sub-branches to ANY of
the plants provided, which IS a major deal.

I guess I'm spoiled with Tree Druid, which although is old, it still rocks for ease of use
as well as complexity of branches and such like that. I kept wanting to add smaller
off-shoots from the plants in Vue from their branches, in an attempt to create a look
that "might???" resemble a jumping cactus, but just couldn't do it.
I found the closest thing to this, was the sea weed plant, but you just could NOT adjust
the shape of it to anything else but what shape it was and you were stuck with that
basic shape, meaning I couldn't bring the branches up off the base of the plant. And I
couldn't of course, add more smaller off-shoots from the branches and more near the tops.

Here's a real foto of the desert area I am trying to recreate.
I marked the plants and what I wished I could do in Vue to recreate these cool plants.
Like making the fuzzy parts of the cacti and other things.
I wished I had some other fotos to show more closely what most of these plants look like,
but it would take me a bit to track them down and I'm not in that mood right now :)
http://www.md-arts.com/Desert_Panorama_Still_Partial_02.jpg

Now, I won't mind making plants that only sort of look like these for the farther away
plants, as I can use better quality plants for closer up shots, though from what I have
read so far, I won't be able to add any sort of dynamics, like wind to imported plants,
like you can with plants created within Vue, and the desert DOES get very windy.
But most of the time it's just breezy or not blowing enough on some of these plants
that you'd really notice, except for plants that are taller, like the Ocotillos and Smoke trees.

So, I'm still open to any real, or realistic that is, suggestions for creating plants in Vue
that will also work like Vue plants do, not just in the scene, but in the Plant Editor as well.
That's the one thing I like about the plant editor, is that you can adjust different plants
to use different sizes of branches and stems and trunks and such, just that you don't
have enough, not nearly enough, control over these areas.

I hope that the Vue people frequent this forum, but I'll suggest some of these things to
them anyway, in the hopes that maybe they can get this implimented in somehow?

Thanx for everyone's input, BTW :)

............md :)
And Doonee, you got me correct, right on the mark :)
That's exactly what I am searching for a way to do.
Thanx.

mdunakin
07-28-2005, 11:45 PM
Here's a couple of samples I made of cacti from within LW.
I'd like to get something "slightly" close to this, but I know I don't need all the thorns,
at least not for the majority of the plants, as they would be too far away to be able to see.
As you can see, I was only able to add a few cacti in LW, as much more then what you see,
was croaking LW too much, as I wanted thousands, not just a dozen or so.
But, I will need to find a way to create fake thorns that look sort of fuzzy like these do.
http://www.md-arts.com/Desert_Cactus_Out_1.jpg
And no, I haven't added any bones to the lizard yet, but I'm working on that right now :)
http://www.md-arts.com/DesertCactusRocksLizard_DOF_01.jpg

Thanx...............md :)

mdunakin
07-29-2005, 01:29 AM
Well, after doing a ton of test for the past few hours, I have found two things out,
one of which you all probably already knew, and that one thing is, that you (sadly) can't
use an imported object in an Eco-System and the other thing is, that I may??? be able to
fake the fuzzy stickers on the cacti by using the Glow effect. I've almost got a few that
looked fairly good, but I need more effects with them before that method would really work.
In otherwords, I need to read up more on materials and how to edit them using Functions,
as I don't want the glow to cover the whole plant, just the outter ends and tops.

If I come up with something that actually works, I'll be more
then happy to share what I come up with, with the rest of you.
Sound good? :)

..........................................md :)

Wabe
07-29-2005, 07:19 AM
Have i read it right? "You can´t use imported objects in Ecosystems? You can.

You simply have to import the objects the normal way, save them as vob and use that for eco-ing. That works perfectly.

If you maybe look at RDNA there are a lot of plants for Poser that maybe come close to what you want. Especially Transpond (http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?TopID=617) or maybe Modualz (http://www.runtimedna.com/catalog.ez?TopID=18118) does have some of the things you are looking for.

Of course you need Poser for them but maybe you have it already. The other issue is thart these are not SolidGrowth plants so there is no variation in them automatically. I use some of this plants quite regularily, they are relatively low poly and look good. Conifers for examplle that are still a gap in Vues collection.

The idea with the glow for the fuzzy cactus is a good one. Was my first thought as well. I would love to see an example of that. Oh, not to forget, the LW cactus look fantastic. But probably heavy stuff - polygon wise.

What i did for my aliens series was to modify some of the Aliens Plants that come with Vue to get fuzzy sort of grass/ground vegetation. Worked fine as well.

mdunakin
07-29-2005, 09:40 AM
OK, maybe I didn't figure that one out then ;)

Thanx for that and I'll give that a try and see if I can get the object saved
as a vob and give that EcoSystem bit another try.
I thought I had already checked for that, but maybe I'm loosing it here LOL
Or that's the best excuse I can come up with, at least :)

And I realize about the objects that aren't Vue objects won't have the abillity to
have any variation change, which is a bit sad, but can be worked out by creating
several different variation models of the same object and just import and use those.
Probably won't be as good, but if you scatter them enough and give them enough
variation in rotation and such it might work out ok.

And no, I don't have Poser yet, but am guessing I should go ahead and get it,
as it seems to be a main program that works with Vue, is this true?

And as for the glow on the material, I couldn't figure how you change the
color of the glow, or even if you could do that or not?

I'll get some time tomorrow to mess around some more with Vue, now that I'm
back up and running again, and I'll let ya know how things work out.

And thanx too, I really thought I couldn't get the objects to work in the EcoSystem.
I'm glad I'm wrong :)
Cuz Vue wanted to croak like LW use to, when I only added 20 copies of that cactus.

............................................md :)
P.S.. And thanx for the comments too about my LW cacti ;)

Wabe
07-29-2005, 10:40 AM
Cacti? Sounds nice! Still good ones.

Ok, imported objects to vob. And re-load. Something i always do - when the objects are final. As long as the models are directly imported (i can't find a better expression for that, sorry) the Vue scene is linked to the original import data. This link only is destroyed by saving as vob and loading that then into your scene or by ungrouping (you then can regroup that again of course) the imported model.
If the original file isn't there anymore but the link is still, Vue can't load the scene. Full stop, scene lost. I had that several time and comlain about that wherever possible. Hopefully e-on will do something about that. But keep it in mind, an easy way to destroy your scenes!

Glow. No, not possible to change the color of the glow. A week point still in the material editor. Hopefully that will change in a future version.

Poser. Yes, sort of the natural addition to Vue. The market for meshes etc for Poser is huge. So it may be a good idea anyway to have it in the toolbox. And if you need virtual characters it is not the worst to have too.
There the automatic update feature of changed imports is fantastic. You pose something in Poser, import it into Vue, see that the pose could be better, rework that in Poser and Vue automatically updates the character in your scene. Great. Then you forget to destroy the link, delete the Poser file and all your work is gone. Ha ha!

BTW, if you buy Poser, don't forget to go to DAZ3D and get the free Victoria 3 and Michael 3 meshes. Most stuff these days is made for those.

mdunakin
07-29-2005, 11:38 AM
Yeah, cacti is the word for more then one cactus, and I'm trying to act like I know fancy words LOL :)

Anyway, sad about the glow bit, I would of thought that would be a natural thing for them
to have in there, since the whole rest of the planet uses and has been using changeable
colors for Glows in their programs for ages. At least from the first few test I've done,
the glow appears to be able to get smaller in size the further away from the camera
the object with the glow gets, so that looks good.

Not too clear on what you mean about the importing and links and crashing or whatever,
but I'm pretty sure i have an idea of what you mean. basically, I need to watch my steps
and be sure to do some saves, when importing and exporting and reloading objects to use
in an EcoSystem scene, correct?

As for Poser, I'll look into that.
I have several friends who like it and use it too and have suggested I might even be able
to use it to model and sell my own models on the net, as well, which might be fun to do.

It's well after 3:35am right now, but who can sleep with this stupid heat here, Uhg!
I've got two fans going non-stop!

anyway, thanx again.................................md :)

Wabe
07-29-2005, 11:46 AM
Well, hot here too. And humid - rained last night...

Ok, do a test. Import a Lightwave file into a Vue scene. Save the scene, quit Vue. Delete the Lightwave object file (lwo i assume) and then open the before saved scene in Vue. And tell me what you get. Hot flashes maybe???

doonee
07-29-2005, 07:06 PM
wabe ...
mind if i ask you another question ?

It is not possible to create a plant from scratch. Not even new subsets. You have to start from an existing spezies.

Allow me to call the plants made from 'existing species' descendants, or children, etc.
And the original already 'existing' species ancestors, or parents, etc.

Thus, there are 'ancestors' that come with two subsets by default and others that don't, right ?
Thus, there are several of these ancestors, not just one, right ?


Do you happen to know which plants are the original 'ancestors' of all others ?
And how many of these ancestors, which all other species are derived from, actually are out there ?

Thanks in advance.
d.

Wabe
07-29-2005, 07:48 PM
Of course you can ask - you always can. Absolutely no problem with that.

The only problem is that i don't really know the answer. I jumped onto the Vue train only when it came out on Mac - version 4 was the first one. So i don't know really what was first.

I always saw the collection "plants" as the original species, all others are probably derivates.

I forgot to mention one thing earlier. There is a very tricky other method to create impressive plants. I think a guy with nickname madasatadpole did some that maybe are still available at Renderosity free stuff. I say maybe because there was once an issue with some parts he used. Another example is an image from sacada (nickname at Renderosity). He did the box image for Vue 5 when i remember it right. Look for that, it is a man done from trees.

What both did was to stick existing trees together to make more branched and more impressive bigger trees.

Example. Start with a fat dead tree as trunk and scale that as you like it and then stick other trees as major branches so to say into that. Worked VERY well for the examples i mentioned. On Monday i can do a quick render if you want to - from Madasatadpoles tree to show you how this can look like. Even roots he did by rotating the dead tree i think and uses these branches for the roots.

Be smart, maybe you find another way to create new plants by combining the existing ones.

Mike.H
07-29-2005, 08:22 PM
you can also be rest asured that there will be more vue plants, e.on will of course continue to produce more plants as they´ve always done, just look at the number of plant´s that´s been added from vue3 to vue5.

As for now tho, you´ll have to think outside of the box like wabe suggested (and combine several plants) or use external plants from other softwares if you need something that vue doesnt have.

mdunakin
07-29-2005, 09:16 PM
Ohhh,,, Wabe, I actually have done that one before, only I didn't know what I was doing at the time.
Edit: this reply is refering to an earlier reply, but since last night I see there are lots more replies here.

Anyway.......

Cuz every time I loaded up Vue, it kept telling me that it couldn't load some object or
something like that and that I needed to delete it first before it would work, but then
it would let me continue working anywy, but I finally figured out that it wanted me to
get rid of the file I had just brought into the folder where Vue was looking for things,
(the lwo file) and I was actually able to just brows to that folder from right inside vue
and delete the stupid thing and then I never got that message again and things worked.

But, like I say, I didn't know what I was doing at the time.
I'll try things out right now and let ya know how they work out.
I'll do it the weay you say above.

And yeah, it's actualy hotter in my house then it is outside and was hot the whole night long!
We have been having the humidity too, but no where near as bad as other parts of the country.

I'm in San Diego, CA. USA.

Anyway, let me try this test out the way you mention above and see waht happens?
Thanx!
.........................md :)
BTW, how do others here get people's messages in Quotes?
I can never see how you all are doing that?
Cuz it would sure help, when I'm trying to reply to one person's message,
so as to not get things confused here of who I'm replying to.
Thanx!

.

doonee
07-29-2005, 09:41 PM
@wabe
gotcha;

i don't know really what was first.

Its funny tho, innit ?
I would be curious to know *how many* fundamentally original ancestor species
there were 'in the beginning' .. :)
Also it would be *very* nice to know 'who descended form whom', as that would also offer clues on what is possible and what not ...
(I know its sometimes mentioned, but not always ...
there is no ancestral plant site out ther, by any chance ?)

Questions over questions ....

You happen to know which plant has the most subsets ?

Any plants out there with more than 2 subsets ?

Would you agree that all this ancestor stuff implies that any species (of one ancestral lineage) can be transformed back and forth to any other (of that lineage) ?
Yes, right ?

And more importantly, would you say that ...
.. the more subsets to a plant, the more options one has, thus more flexible is the work,
thus the more chances one has to get what one wants ?


I always saw the collection "plants" as the original species,

What are the 'collection plants' ?

.. stick existing trees together to make more branched and more impressive bigger trees.

I've seen that. Nice!
I wonder tho what happens if you use these combo-trees in an ecosystem ..
Will they keep stuck together ?
Will they still be subject to solid growth in a way that makes sense ?

Cause If they dont it would probably be easier just to go via Xfrog etc and import a straight model, no ?

thanx again, guys !!
:)

doonee
07-29-2005, 09:48 PM
@mike
im willing to explore all the boxes :)

@
Im in Brazil. ...
Its actually deepest winter down here, with a scary cold front coming up,
says the TV, where temperature drops down to like a shuddering 19C.
Tis about a cold as it gets.
July and August are the only two months where you have the chance
to have a few days slightly cooler than in Europe ...

Mike.H
07-30-2005, 12:05 AM
you should visit Sweden during the winter and enjoy our -20c degrees (quite popular for brazilian female soccer player to come here and play fotball, we have a few both in Själevad och Umeå´s team)

At mdunakin, just hit the qoute box on whatever post you would like to qoute.

mdunakin
07-30-2005, 01:24 AM
At mdunakin, just hit the qoute box on whatever post you would like to qoute.

You mean like this?
Did this work?
I guess I'll see when this gets posted :)

And thanx Mike.
I assume I did it the right way, of copy some text from a message bellow
this edit window and then paste it in here and highlite the same text and
then hit that Quotes button, correct? I mean is this how other s do it?

Thanx............md :)
And yeah, I loved that tree man also.
Was too cool. One of my favs from that gallery.

Hey!, it worked!
Thanx a ton! Mike! :)

.

doonee
07-30-2005, 01:46 AM
@md
tis how i do it at least ...

mdunakin
07-30-2005, 02:03 AM
Yeah, doonee, after all this time of hanging out in the CG-Talk forums,
and I'm only just now finding out how this all works! LOL

Go figure..........md :)

Learn something new everyday.

doonee
07-31-2005, 02:36 PM
And the 'Origin of the Species' ? :)

ne1 knows btw which plant has the most subsets ?
Is there a plant with more than 2 subsets ?
Does the number of subsets increase flexibitiliy in editing?
What are the 'collection plants' ?

How do the combo-trees (several tress stuck together) do when part of an ecosystem ?
Do they stay together ?

rgds ?

mdunakin
07-31-2005, 05:04 PM
Yeah, I have the same questions that doonee just asked as well.

thanx.............md :)

Wabe
07-31-2005, 05:18 PM
Ok, will try to answer the questions now and tomorrow (Monday).

Collection of plants is simply the "folder" you see when you select a plant that you want. Normally you have "plants", "edited plants" and "alien plants" there. I hope i have it right in mind, i am at home and can't look right now.

The combo trees in an ecosystem i as well try out on Monday and will show you how it goes. But i am sure it will work, it is simply a group of plants really.

Subsets. Yes, the more subsets the more flexibility you have. You simply should create one plant and check the subsets in the plant editor. I would have to do the same.

BTW, Cornucopia is open now, the online store from E-on. They have some new plants there, go and check it out.

Be sure that you create an identical id at Cornucopia as it is at e-on when you registered your product. Otherwise then you can have problems there.

But be patient, the site seems to be overcrowded on this first day and is down right now.

mdunakin
07-31-2005, 07:49 PM
Just so you know, you'll notice, as I predicted, they DON'T have ANY cactus plants or DESERT plants of ANY sort there!

That's what I meant a while back, when I said, apparently the whole planet seems to think
the only types of plants are either trees and bushes or underwater plants and sometimes alien plants.
I guess desert plants are REALLY alien to earth, or something?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........................md
Grumble, mutter, grumble, grrrrr................
Back to square one.
And I was all set to use up that 50 dollar voucher they gave me when I bought Vue5I.

.

Wabe
07-31-2005, 09:09 PM
The tricky thing with desert vegetation is - that it grows in places where not too many people live. And most of the ones that have seen them have not the best memory maybe - dried out brain so to say. So the market is not as big as in other places - with trees and bushes. Ok, this was a more fun answer but there is maybe a little grain of truth in it.

Isn't there one cactus in the package? Have you tried to modify that? Same with the dry bush, maybe it can be done something from those, i don't know.

Looks like that i slowly become a plant expert - was not my strong point so far. Thanks for helping me onto the horse guys.

mdunakin
07-31-2005, 09:31 PM
Thanx, but that one and ONLY cactus they have, is the typical standard lame cactus
that everyone thinks deserts have, when they're really only in a certain area, and no
you can't adjust them to be of any use. I already wasted hours trying.

As for the comments about deserts not being as popular as other plants, hey,
who the heck needs foney made up plants like the Alien collection? Those don't
even exist, and yet they get more attention then my desert plants, which are
REAL and occupy a good (huge) portion of the earth.
And yes, I've already posted my request for these types of plants and detailed what I'm
looking for and even offered to pay up front for them, in the new forum at the Cornucopia site.

I'd pay them right now, if they'd just build the things for me.
It'd sure be better if they would simply let US create our own plants, but then,
I guess they couldn't keep selling plants to everyone.
But! if they want to sell something, then sell us a plant creating program.
I'd pay for that in a second flat!

Please e-on, please be reading this forum and taking notes that this NEEDS to be done.
Pleeeeasseee?

.......................md :)

doonee
08-01-2005, 01:40 AM
he wabe !! :)
thanks for your help !!

k, i will go through all the plants (sadly, not before thuesday) and report here all about subsets.

sorry for buggin around about the subsets,
its because it don tknow VUE too well, and somehow i had thought this was common knowledge .... :)

Guys, dont get me started about cacti:
i live relatively close to a desert (400km), and a large semiarid area as well (150km), boiling with weired endemic cacti etc.
We actually could open a cactus thread, if that would meet poplar response. :).

once more, thanks for all the advice ...

mdunakin
08-01-2005, 04:09 AM
Doonee, I'm planning on sending the Cornucopia people a bunch of my fotos from the desert
of the different plants that I took when out there along with others that other people have taken.
This way, they'll already have the pictures of what they look like and maybe that will be
more incentive to hurry and get them put out, if they already see them sitting
there in front of them on their computers?
I hope :)

As soon as I get them organized, I'll post up the links to them all and then everyone
here can have a look at them and maybe come up with some ideas?

I have been thinking up some ideas on how I might be able to invent my own desert plants
and still be using the ones that come with Vue, but so far, they're just theories.

....................md ;)

Wabe
08-01-2005, 12:41 PM
Ok, as promised here some tests.

#1 the composed tree in an Ecosystem - the one to the left is outside the eco. So it works, as expected.

The second image is a quick test with Poser. Create the form and add the thorns as dynamic hair. Took our apprentice an hour from idea to this rough result. So it should be not too difficult to do cacti (still a nice word :D ) yourself.

doonee
08-01-2005, 05:09 PM
Wabe ..

Thanks !
The combotrees keep sticking together when part of a ecosystem
However, they are in there as objects, right ?
(they arent subject to solidgrowth-variation, as you explained, right ?).

Yea, 'cacti' is a pretty funny word.
Was tryin to remember my latin, in vain. :(
I have a vague kinda hunch it may spell 'cactii'.
Actually, the German plural for cactus is pretty funny too:
'Kakteen'.
Also, I heard some folks say 'Kaktusse'
Indeed, all these words are as strange as the plants they refer too. :)

rgds
d

doonee
08-01-2005, 05:22 PM
md
As soon as I get them organized, I'll post up the links to them all and then everyone here can have a look at them and maybe come up with some ideas?

I have some pics from the desert myself, plus my buddy is the chief of a small
statepark in a semiarid region, and this guy has got cactus pics 'en masse'.

Information exchange for cactus modelling (non-domestic plant modeling in general)
sounds like a very nice idea, also for the exchange of textures, or for community projects etc.
If there were a place for this kind of stuff, i would prolly be a regular.

However, i have some small doubts on whether that would be a very popular topic,
and, in consequence, I guess it probably wouldnt range too high up on a priority list
of any large software-co.

rgds
d
:)

Wabe
08-01-2005, 06:13 PM
Yeah, and how strange these cactii are when you sit on them!!! Uuuhhhhh.

Yes, the combo trees are in as objects so there is no variation - i think. You can however edit the elements in the plant editor so in fact i am not completely sure, it needs to be tested again. Here the problem might be that those combos came from good old Vue 4 and needs to be updated to become real SolidGrowth trees.

Will try that maybe tomorrow. If you say nicely "please"!

mdunakin
08-01-2005, 09:46 PM
So, exactly what is the point or the deal or the scoop of the Dynamic hair on the cactus?
Just curious, is all?

I still haven't jumped on the Poser wagon yet, as I haven't yet seen enough to convince
me to do so, since most things I can model myself, but if it allows me to do something
"different" then just loading in my own created objects, then I might change my mind?

But that's a lot of loot for someone if they don't really have a use for it, other then
to use humans or the standard Poser type objects, most of which I can model myself.

I still want to build me a killer new system with 64bit dual core and all,
and that's not going to be cheap.
So I'm being carefull on what I spend money on.

Thanx, and just so you know, I already have several desert plants built and I can
adjust them so they use less polies then when I first made them, as well as change
them so maybe work better with Vue, but of course, none of them will do all the
things an actual Vue plant would do, but I can get away with most of them,
as they don't need dynamics or anything.

Anyway, thanx and I do appreciate all your help and tips and such.
...............md :)

.

doonee
08-02-2005, 12:20 AM
1-2-3
pleeeeezzzz
:)

mdunakin
08-02-2005, 07:13 AM
Sorry, Doonee, was that too lame of a question about Poser?
It seamed reasonable to me, as that's not an inexpensive program.
And if it's really not going to make any real difference in the way the
imported Poser objects react in Vue compared to any other regular imported
object, then I don't see me spending the money on it, at least not right now?

Thanx.................md :)

Wabe
08-02-2005, 07:28 AM
Mark, dynamic hair has one good issue, it can be animated. And Vue does understand that.

I mentioned the Poser connection because i think Poser is an inexpensive program and the coordination between Poser and Vue is very well tested and is working. Beside some minor issues (before someone else complains). And is the only program I HAVE that can do hairy things. You are more lucky with Lightwave i guess, i am not.

Then the Poser community is immense so if one want to sell a product it is a really good idea to do that for Poser. Was not my intention but...

Ok, i am off to do an eco-test with combo trees. Slowly I really become an expert in all that. Thanx again guys.

mdunakin
08-02-2005, 08:07 AM
Oh.
Ok.
I can see the hair part, but for me and in the area of desert plants,
the hair/thorns wouldn't and doesn't need to be animated anyway.

Not complaining or anything like that, just for what I need,
if it's just the hair, then I have no real use for it as of yet.
Like I say, maybe down the road though :)

BTW, when I went and checked out a couple of my really old desert plants,
I was ashaimed to even admit that I had made them or ever even seen them before!

Boy!, was I lame in the old days when I actually thought I knew how to model LOL
I can't wait to get my site updated, but for those who still want a laugh,
feel free to go to my site and look under the Gallery section, and you'll find,
what I used to think was a fairly good desert scene.
Man I had forgotten about that image and how bad it was.
Of course, I wasn't trying to create a realistic scene with that,
as it was meant more as just fun, since the taco is hopping
down the trail followed by the chilli peppers.
But I thought my desert plants in that scene were better then that!?
But, what the heck, I made that scene like 9 years ago when I was first getting into LW.

Anyway, guess now I'll need to build new plants, as I sure as heck won't be using those LOL
Although, I kinda like the Barrel cactus :)

.......................md :)

.

doonee
08-02-2005, 11:47 AM
@md

no lame question. :)
wabe had asked me (us) to say please, and so ...
:)

rgds
d

Wabe
08-02-2005, 12:56 PM
Ok, even when the "please" was a little lame :scream: i did a test this morning. Stuck a new combo tree together - with a tree package i test right now for a friend and a trunk that is a 3DS model.

I think it works, the trees are varied in the eco as far as i can see.

BTW, the first tree to the left is the "original", not member of the ecosystem.

doonee
08-02-2005, 01:44 PM
@wabe

we'll be working on the please dept. as well, its is something we do take serious, and we're sure there'll be some major improvements already in the next version!

:)

Wabe
08-02-2005, 01:49 PM
Yeah man, go for it! Go for it! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

mdunakin
08-02-2005, 04:32 PM
Ok, can't the trees be at least rotated when you bring them in from other programs?
I mean the trunks or bases of the trees.
Doesn't Vue let you also set the radomness for rotating objects,
even when they aren't Vue objects?

thanx...................md :)

doonee
08-03-2005, 12:55 AM
guys, i had a hard day and my report on subsets is lousy.
ive opened most plants and didnt find any with more than 2 subsets.
(i did not look too very hard tho, so i may be wrong)
quota of plants with a single subset against plants with 2 maybe 65:35, maybe more.

plants with 2 subsets are, for example:
umbrella acacia
middle sized palm
yukka
rubber tree
and the coconut palmtree

well, i know i havent been a great help with this one so far ..
i get back to this as soon as i can ...

rgds
d

Wabe
08-03-2005, 09:00 AM
Of course they can be rotated in an ecosystem. My setting maybe was not good enough for that. OR, you only see the ones with similar rotations on the test image i did.

My first goal for that was to check wether the parts of the combo plants are variied or not. And they are i would say.

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 09:13 AM
Yeah, the rest of it did look great, like you say, as it appears the experiment did indeed work :)
me being picky, I just caught that the base of the trees didn't look rotated, but like you say,
I probably was just seeing the ones that were near to the same.

Thanx also............md :)

DigReal
08-03-2005, 06:43 PM
Sorry to be so late arriving at this discussion. Somehow missed it til now. Desert renders have been at the top of my list since I started with Vue and Xfrog 4 or 5 years ago. I always found desert rendering to be an impossible wish, though. Until recently. The problem with the sw deserts has always been the detail. Those unfamiliar often think the desert is flat, empty and dull. But it has more detail packed into much smaller space than most other landscapes. Too much detail to render properly... until V5I and ecosystem.

Mark, I got the impression you have Xfrog. Do you? If so, the Southwest library has some really good stuff in it. The stuff I'm not too happy with looks like it can be fixed up. Most desert plants are stiff, and don't 'flow' with the wind like leafy plants do. The movement is usually limited to vibrating, or bending at the base. Octillo is an exception, of course. But stuff like cholla, prickly pear and pincushions don't budge.

Since getting Infinite, I've been short on time. But I did try throwing together a few variations of Xfrog cacti in ecosystems and got promising results. It looks like I'll finally have some free time in the coming weeks, so would love to explore this subject more with you (and all others who are interested). It'd be great to have a single place for this subject. I know there are others in SoCal who have explored desert rendered. Maybe we can find them and plan a field trip someday. Wouldn't that be cool... a bunch of CG artists taking over a campground in Joshua Tree NP, zoomin their cameras in on every cacti and boulder to be found. ;o))

Speaking of Joshua Tree, that photo you posted looks like it might've come from there. Somewhere along the high and low desert transition zone? In case you haven't guessed, I also have lots of desert pics. Hoping to get a new camera soon, and take those pics all over again.

doonee
08-03-2005, 07:02 PM
contribution from brazil ...

http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/swallowtail/785/imagens.html (http://http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/swallowtail/785/imagens.html)

Brazilian Cactaceae (hey, another word for cactus, meaning 'the cactii-like') in their natural habitat.
Site loads slow, you might wanna use the google cache to get to the index.

Most places are within 500 km from where I am.
To get there, one crosses areas (once) covered by rainforest.
Theres been a vivid biotic exchange betwen the two biomes, with cactii species invading the forest and vice versa, which results in an elevated biodiversity and 'weirdness' .....

if you guys start any major cactus-conspiracy, plz let me know .....
:)

@digreal
ever considered terragen for your deserts ?

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 07:04 PM
WHOA!

This is finally starting to get fun hearing that there are actually some OTHER people out there that ALSO love the desert!
I've been wanting to create a real desert scene for over ten years now, but had to
wait till they came out with some software that could handle it, and so far, Vue is doing
the job for me, though I can still croak it if I try and get tooo detailed about things LOL

Did I post this up already and if so, have you checked it out?
http://www.md-arts.com/Desert_Panorama_Mov_02.mov
Click in the movie and you can rotate all the way around in a 360 degree.
This was from my last trip out there a couple of months back, before it got too flippin hot!
Also, was my first try with making a 360 panorama.

But the point being, just like you just mentioned, you can see, that this would be
a nightmare for ANY software to try (keyword there, TRY) and recreate.
There are litterally millions of plants covering the whole place for as far as you can see!
And then alllll the boulders and rocks piled up everywhere.
This is actually the lower desert of the Anza Borrego Desert near Dos Cabasus.
The place where the old water tower still stands, when the old trains used to need that thing.

We drove further away from that though, more up out from the valley area to the foothills section.

And YES, I was thinking of starting a new thread that is JUST FOR desert talk.
In fact I will if you don't?
And then we who love the desert, can go there and leave everyone else alone that isn't interested in deserts :)

Sound good to you?
Sounds great! to me :)

Oh, and also about the xFrog and other plants made from these, my issue was more
to do with that all the plants would be the same, as like you say, they don't need
things like wind, except maybe the ocotillos, but that's ok. I was just more
concerned about getting my plants to all be a little different,
which Vue plants can do, and imported plants can't.

..............................................md :)
P.S. No, I don't have any plant editors like xFrog or anything,
other then Tree Druid, which is pretty old.
Also, we were camped right at the end of the dirt road where it come up to the hills there.
That little white dot that looks sort of like a square, is the windshield of the Trooper.
We tend to avoid camp ground areas :)
And my brother has loads of killer rocker fotos from this and other areas out in the desert.
Check out some of his recent fotos here, if you like:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=3009006&a=30098271
He's had tons of his fotos in the Rocket Mags.
.

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 07:15 PM
Yeah, let's do just that, Doonee.

Let's start a cactii thread!
Sounds aweome to me! :)

Oh, and I couldn't get that link to work for me either, is it working or down or
do I just need to try it again a few times?

I'm dieing to see what types you have over there?

thanx...........md :

DigReal
08-03-2005, 07:38 PM
Good link, Doonee. I only looked at 20 or so for now, but they looked great. Btw, clicking the link didn't work for me, but copy/paste did work. If we do a field trip, we'll have to give you plenty of notice so you have time save up for the flight. The southwestern deserts are great. My favorite spots are Joshua Tree and Death Valley national parks, but there are plenty of great places besides those, as Mark surley knows.

doonee
08-03-2005, 07:44 PM
guys,...
the index file of this site is somehow screwed up ..
paste the link, or parts of it, into google,
then use the google cache link to view the page.
from there the links to the plants work.
its all in portuguese tho .....

cheers
d

doonee
08-03-2005, 07:58 PM
@md
why not a cactus FORUM ? :)
(tis way one may get input also from non-3d-cactus-people, which i reckon there are, somewhere out there) ..

@digreal
no money and no time to come up there, very unfortunately.
(I liked it over around Bishop, CA)
but plz keep me informed ...
Or else, whenever you guys get down here, ill point you to the cactus fields !! :)

doonee
08-03-2005, 08:07 PM
check this one out, guys ...


-EDIT-
Author has asked me to remove this image.
Sorry.
He aparently believes he's some kind of wasteland-Elvis.
-EDIT-

:)

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 08:09 PM
I'll have to try that link again, doing what you said.


As for the deserts out here, yep!, there are lots of different great places to go to out
here, and all of them are different, in one way or another, which makes it so much fun.

And Death valley is where my brother is going for his yearly trip.
He goes out that way every year and gets all kinds of great rocket airial fotos from those trips.
Did you check out the links I provided showing some of them?
And how'd you like my Panorama of the desert?

Also, the Bad Lands are really cool, and feel like you're on another planet or something.
Out there, the plant life is sparse, yet huming birds live out there in that harsh environment.
They nest in the Smoke Trees and other plants like that.
Cool caves are hidden out there too, some of which you can find tons of cute little bats.
They're like little flying beans, is what we always call them, cuz they're soo small :)

And some of the old minor's camps out in Death Valley are pretty awesome too.
You just have to know where to look to find the really cool stuff.
In fact, in that panorama, there are old Indian Rock Writings up a ways
from there all over some boulders and stuff like that!
Too cool!

And I think the Bad Lands would make for some great DEM file scenes,
as they're all weathered and rutted out with canyons and everything.

.........................md :)

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 08:12 PM
Doonee, you sure that's all real, and not stuff that people just planted all in one area?

Cuz none of them look like they came from the same sort of natural envio, but it's sure is weird like you say.

I love it!

Oh wait, I reread what you said in that post there.
So, those ARE in a garden like setting, or naturally grown there?

......................md :)

doonee
08-03-2005, 08:18 PM
@md
im sure its all real,
and its all from Brazil,
and its all from the 'Semi-Arid'.
and Im sure its all been put together with Photoshop.
(they told me so)
Plants are maybe from a region of a 1500 km radius, maybe a bit more.
These guys been doing this for some 20odd years or so...

rgds
d

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 08:50 PM
Ohh,, OK, I see.

Either way, they're still cool :)

Oh, and BTW, I'm already up to frame 210 of 901 frames!
YAY!

( 9 and a half hours to go)

............md :)
P.S. Did anyone see my thread about cameras and time?
I'll be posting a tutorial soon on what I figured out too.

doonee
08-03-2005, 09:10 PM
actually, its nice to imagine this Photoshop job beeing done in VUE, init ?
:)
d

mdunakin
08-03-2005, 09:15 PM
Yep! :)

.........................md :)

DigReal
08-03-2005, 09:40 PM
You guys post too fast for me... I can't keep up.

I thought there was some PS work in that garden pic. Couldn't imagine so much variety so close together. Those pot bellied trees look familiar, but can't remember from where. Cool stuff!

No Xfrog, Mark? Sounds like Xfrog might be of more use to you than Poser, so you might want to look at it. As for having Xfrog plants vary in ecosystem, that's usually easy. The libraries come with at least 3 varieties of each plant, so that's a start. Ecosystem changes the size and rotation of each object, so that helps a lot, too. For stuff like trees, I usually just edit the branching and make more vob's for the ecosystem. Notice that I said "usually easy". Trees are easy to edit. Xfrog cacti use a different (and much more complex ) modeling technique. I don't recommend buying Xfrog just to model cacti. Only get it if the other libaries are also of interest. I hope to play around some next week. I'm thinking that by making various grouped vob's, I might get more eco variety without spending a lot of time editing the plants. I'll post whatever works in the new desert thread.

That desert rocketry stuff looks like a blast (pun intended). I loved rockets as a teen, but had no way to get out of the big city back then. Bet your brother loves playing in Death Valley.

Good job with the pano. That would be tough to pull off in Vue, even with eco. The location looks just like the south end of Joshua park. I haven't explored the low desert outside of the park.... as you put it, too flippin hot. I've driven down to the Salton Sea area a few times.
Which Bad Lands are you referring too? Seem to be a lot of places in the sw by that name. There are a number of Red Rock Canyons, too (but I only know the ones near me).

DigReal
08-03-2005, 09:43 PM
actually, its nice to imagine this Photoshop job beeing done in VUE, init ?
:)
d

Doonee, that's a good idea for the Xfrog/V5I grouping I just mentioned. I'll have to remember that.

doonee
08-04-2005, 01:43 AM
He guys, I did write that it was Photoshop, right next to where I posted the pic ! :)

All plants in there are from an area called the Brazilian Semi-Arid. All plants are xerophyllous (they can handle 'dry'.) The flowering trees are xerophyllous as well, they got themselves some special smart watertank organs evolved, and the Indians used to know all about that and thus wouldn't get thirsty. Doh. :)
Except for a few smaller cactii (who like it high) it would NOT be impossible to see all these plants around the same small area (in an undisturbed environment), tho perhaps not in the same season. Its only that these days you have to scout around to get to see some of them at all.

@digreal
i cant wait to see that
:)

DigReal
08-04-2005, 02:22 PM
I can't wait to see that, too, Doonee. It's been a few months since I've had a real chance to play in Vue. Lookin forward to it.

Ryan-Spaulding
08-04-2005, 03:20 PM
Where are you guys posting your images that you do?

I'm curious as to how well Vue images can look at higher resolutions ...like 2000-4000 resolution lines. Anybody post larger, printable versions of their work?

EDIT: What is considered a mod's abuse of power, because I believe I just encountered it. What a gutless fool (yeah, you know which one you are).

DigReal
08-05-2005, 01:52 AM
Hi Ryan. I saw your other post where you asking about the hi-res renders. That's something I want to know more about myself. When I first upgraded to V5 (esprit), I couldn't render very high at all... kept getting out-of-memory errors. I keep hearing that the oom thing has improved a lot since then, at least in V5I, which is what I run now. The largest I've done in V5I was 2048x1536. Not very big, but it looked fine and with no problems. Running something in the 3000-4000 range is high on my test list.... maybe one of the cacti/eco tests I'm hoping for next week. I'll let you know how it goes.

As for posting images... I think we're going to start a new thread here. One with a subject line that lets others know it's about deserts in Vue.

doonee
08-06-2005, 11:58 PM
@dig
I can't wait to see that, too, Doonee. It's been a few months since I've had a real chance to play in Vue. Lookin forward to it.
:)

doonee
08-07-2005, 12:16 AM
oh yes, i almost forgot.
i found one plant that has 3 subsets.
ironically, its called: DEAD TREE ... :)

greets
d

DigReal
08-07-2005, 12:47 AM
Dead Tree is the one with 3 subsets? That's funny!


Just found out I landed a big, complicated project to start in 2 or 3 weeks. Guess I'm gonna have to move thru my 'Vue stuff to learn' list faster than I wanted to. I started converting some of the Xfrog cacti to vob files already, for the ecosystems tests. Since I've never done
a Vue animation, don't know how far I'll get into that idea.

Walli
08-11-2005, 08:39 AM
Hi,

I am also late in this thread - I would have missed it without hint ;-)
About the combo trees - I just made a test and grouped a Rural Maple with deadtree as gnarly base.
You can use it inside Ecosystem, but apart from rotation and scaling, all the combo trees look exactly the same - even with solid growth plants as parts)

So if you want to check if there are variations of the compo plants, then:
- activate "Force Regular alignment"
- set "Maximum size variation" to zero
- set Maximum rotation to zero

To me, all combo trees are exactly the same. Then simply replace the combo tree by a regular solid growth plant and you will see the difference.
But actually I think this is something that e-on software could perhaps fix. I mean, the Ecosystem just as to notive, that there´s a solid growth plant inside the group...

doonee
08-15-2005, 01:56 AM
hey walli ...
only saw your post just now ... :)

thanx for the hint to testing! good one ...

would it help, or is it possible, to mix combo and solid growth trees?

rgds
d

Walli
08-15-2005, 08:00 AM
You mean using some solid growth trees, each one a "unique tree" because of this nice Vue technology and then some combo or xfrog trees?
Yes, this also helps to hide that imported trees or combo trees all look the same

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