CGTalk - Illustration: Freddios Major work!

Freddio

10-28-2002, 10:54 AM

Thanks all,

you guys have made me feel very welcome :)

Ian Jones: Thanks very much

Mr. Jones: Im glad that you could pick it :)

slime: Obviously I took many photorefernces to work from, I can't draw self portraits from my head :) nah they arent painted of photos though, I just slavishly copied my facial features. gargh! (i can't see the point in copying photos in digital because they may as well be photos, but i chose to so in order to pickup m idealised realism) not much fun. The backgrounds, lighting, textures etc are out of my head, thats the part which i enjoyed the most.

Thanks for the comments

mikefeil

10-28-2002, 11:26 AM

I reckon I will be seeing this in art express next year :)

I'm about to start my major work aswell for 2003.

anyway, your skill is amazing

Ant4d

10-28-2002, 12:22 PM

my crit : tastes rather like photo than painting or drawing.

PotatoHead

10-28-2002, 12:41 PM

the background looks painted, cause the proportions are off (that's normal i s'pose), but the person looks like a photo that was fed into a filter.....but still looks great.....i suck at painting myself, i more into sculpting :rolleyes: ....but yea, great work!!!:eek: :bounce: :surprised

flamedevil

10-28-2002, 01:21 PM

AAAWWWWSOME !!!!!!!!
Absolutly magnificient :surprised

Vic3k

10-28-2002, 01:22 PM

wow wow wow. that's one of the most beutiful paintings i've seen.
man you should go into matte painting for movies!!!
:thumbsup:

urgaffel

10-28-2002, 01:31 PM

Really really good work. I really like the lighting in all the drawings... You got a shitload of talent. Keep us posted :)

And with work like that, you shouldn't have to worry that much about the real world ;)

leandrone

10-28-2002, 02:15 PM

can U tell me which photoshop filter did U use ?!?

I'd like to try also on a couple of photo...

thx !!! I love it...

Gamoron

10-28-2002, 02:25 PM

Post some pencil work. Line art, minus the bedroom. I'm sorry you say you didn't paint over anything?! I went to art school with guys like you and they couldn't draw to save their lives unless they traced from a photo reference. The Caravagio picture and photo on the walls look copied and pasted then slightly altered. Scale is too exact like something a computer would do. My apologies if these were drawn by you. There are too many frauds popping up on this site.
Also Man, drop the deep crap. That's whats killing art today, this deep cryptic meaning. No wonder layman don't care for it. Not only do you not understand what you said neither do the other "fine artist" but you pretend that you do, and have these witty conversations straight out of Clerks. I hated that movie, nobody talks like that!

Carina

10-28-2002, 02:25 PM

What to say.

That's amazing. Very best of luck in the future, although with that kind of talent I don't think you need it;)

Tellerve

10-28-2002, 02:31 PM

Great work, you have a promising future in art, so don't stress moving away from high school...it only gets better.

As for all the naysayers, don't worry about them either. It kills me how many people think they instantly know everything about you and whether or not you actually know what your talking about or how you accomplished your art. It is still art, and if it looks good then great. So who gives a care if he did it some way or another, the end result is what is important.

Tellerve

Indolent

10-28-2002, 02:42 PM

Hah! I love it when a mere highschool student pops up on these forums, and in a single post, manages to upset, intimidate and make jealous a few of the "seasoned veterans" who visit here. ;) Contrary to what's been suggested to you earlier, keep going in the direction you're going and never feel obligated to cater to anyone who lacks the mental capacity to understand your mentality and philosophy toward artwork. It's obviously done alot for you, already. Keep it up. :thumbsup:

derelict

10-28-2002, 03:17 PM

My heart bleeds for you.

cdinic

10-28-2002, 03:30 PM

Is Gamoron the only sane person in here? Freddio, your the kid I beat up in High school. Your resorting to bullshit art histroy because u lack your own style and sense of your self. Your work is amazing, assuming your actualy a high school student and created this work honestly but you need to grow up a bit.

-chris

barley

10-28-2002, 04:07 PM

I remember you from the Sijun forums before they turned to crap, and from (I think) Lumental.

To all the naysayers, Freddio has always done great work, and it's clear he's put his head down and set about improving his work immensley. I think too many of the naysayers (self called "experienced Veterans") are unnerved because someone barely out of highschool is walking all over their artistic abilities.

Keep up the work Freddio, you'll go a lot further in your career than the people trying to knock you down, thats for sure.

trevlb

10-28-2002, 04:08 PM

freddio,

great work. i love the lighting on the paintings. i would be very interested in seeing your technique (how you build up the color, what kind of paint, etc). the sketches were great as well. nice work on the hand in sketch 1. the facial expression in 1 and 3 are my favorite. they really grab you. a small crit on sketch 3. i think the area around the pinky and skin wrinkles on the hand could use some more work to get them to sketch 1 quality.

overall, great, inspiring stuff. makes me want to break out the sketch pad.

Shadowed_link

10-28-2002, 04:32 PM

Sooooo, cool.

however you did it, you have captured lighting, figure, and colour
fantastically.

You should really think about showing us some more work if you have anything else to post, i'd love to see anything else you want to post. (doesn't need to be as brilliant as your last works just anything)

great work, don't stop.

jason-slab

10-28-2002, 04:50 PM

wow dude
exellent work
:D

Sez

10-28-2002, 05:37 PM

Great work Freddio!

You've got the skills to pay the bills!
Keep on drawing!

:thumbsup:

KingMob

10-28-2002, 05:39 PM

man some of these replies seem really uncalled for.

The work looks great, and I would asssume he used MANY photographs for reference.

Also the pencil work is great, looks more artistic to me...more style I guess. THe other have that photo look to them, that I am not a big fan of. But you got some talent man, keep at it.

Ah to be an angst ridden teenager again...but with his talent hehe

:thumbsup:

Gamoron

10-28-2002, 06:07 PM

I believe reactions like mine are necessary. Often people pop on with their 1st post and say "I've been lurking.." How often does someones work deter these people? Weall need to see the process involved to get an idea of how it was done. During my year of art school, (I left because it was full of pretension from people who were dead in the water) during a painting critique class, a guy placed a small painting on the easel of a small doll. Exquisite. Photo realistic and painted with oils. And he never touched the canvas with a pencil. Me I paint from my head and I have to draw sometimes 1st on the canvas. So I figured he referenced the doll itself. But he didn't. he painted over the photo of a doll that was projected onto the canvas, and felt this wasn't cheating in any way. Later the next semester in watercolour class I saw why he projected, he couldn't manage to draw or paint freehand for the life of himself. Painting on a computer is twenty times easier then with paint. But I was blown away by Freddios work. Now I want to know how it was done. Is that too much to ask? Surely he has sketches?

We all have different ideas on what is legal and not in art.

KingMob

10-28-2002, 06:46 PM

actually I agree with you 100%

but the first page shows that he can both paint and draw..or I looked at them wrong.

I to went to school with those same tracers.

Actually two twins (girl, cute to) who would come up with the most photo real stuff EVER. One day we had a n assignment in class that had to be done in one day, so they could not go home and project the magazines photos, teacher got very pissed. But I dunno, I don't see that here. I see a bit of style and originality.

Besides art is often a way of expressing inner feelings, not commercial art (which I like better) but most artists give thought to their work besides will it look cool (not me usually heh)
I just think people were being a bit Harsh, not to say your points were not valid, just that they seemed to be said without reason.

Someone said "I used to beat people like you up in high school" that just seemed out of place to me. sorry.

Jhonus

10-28-2002, 07:42 PM

I thought it was a still shot from the movie Waking Life when i saw the thumbnail. Its good work regardless of process.

Originally posted by cdinic
Is Gamoron the only sane person in here? Freddio, your the kid I beat up in High school. Your resorting to bullshit art histroy because u lack your own style and sense of your self. Your work is amazing, assuming your actualy a high school student and created this work honestly but you need to grow up a bit.

get over it :thumbsdow

Freddio

10-28-2002, 07:48 PM

Thanks guys

Originally posted by cdinic
Is Gamoron the only sane person in here? Freddio, your the kid I beat up in High school. Your resorting to bullshit art histroy because u lack your own style and sense of your self. Your work is amazing, assuming your actualy a high school student and created this work honestly but you need to grow up a bit.

-chris

50% of the mark for this work was on its art history, thus we had to show conceptual strength. And i did this through the linkages of many artists and styles. You obviously have no training in that area to truely respect the nature of this work, however wether or not i truely believe what my concept is saying is subjective in its self :)

You could check my website for my own sense of style.
However I think it is you who needs to show some maturity!
but thanks for your opinion anyway.

Yea, we have to show the process of all our work in our process diary.

Ive been working on these series on and off for over a year. I spent loads more time than you can imagine. It is pretty much the only art i have done this year, because I have been so busy with school and other comitments. It was a good feeling to finish these.

I also did 3 oil paintings, but i dont have pics of them.

http://www.freq6.de/host/hugh/

if you'd like to check out some of my older work, I updated it the start of the year, but no new stuff..
leave a comment in the book so I know you've been :)
Might fix it up some time.nearly everything on that site was down without photoreference. :) But i feel i have made a hug leap in progress over the year, i learnt heaps, just by researching the great mastsers of the past.

Thanks all for the comments..

JFThomas

10-28-2002, 08:08 PM

His work is good. If he wants to be cerebral or dark and brooding or WHATEVER in his approach and or philosohy, that's his choice.

Gamoron-

A) You don't NEED to see anything. Learn to seperate "looking to learn" from "looking to appreciate". I do believe Freddio was showing his work to be appreciated ( positively or negatively ) If you EXPECT a step-by-step everytime.... BUY a book.

B)Both you and cdinic need to truly evaluate your own work FIRST.

I have NO problem when people/artists offer good, solid criticisms. But when they start getting nasty and Holier-than-thou... first thing I want to do is see their work to "see where they are coming from" In all honesty... You BOTH need to spend more time and energy improving your own work and less time being High and Mighty. Had you offered up GOOD criticism (positive OR negative), much like the other 99. percent of the artists here, I/we would probably have listened... and maybe even learned something.

Instead- well, you showed your ass and we learned it was an ugly one.

FREDDIO- I enjoyed your work and good luck on your final assessment! My only crit is the pattern going on in the black on images 3 and 4 of the painted series. I think the crumpled wax paper texture detracts from the images. Something subtler and more organic would work better. Either way... NICE job.

Faeroon

10-28-2002, 09:51 PM

:eek:
*rubs his eyes* Wheee...

Very very nice art Freddio - good luck with you ongoing career (i hope so :thumbsup: )
I like the rather pen-sketched paintings better than the nearly
photorealistic "retouched" ones but HELL - those look awesome
and I dont give a shit (like some other folks... :rolleyes: ) how you did it:
You did it and it looks superb! :applause:

I'm a baaaaad painter myself (anyone who dared to look at my page can tell ya... *G* :D ) , but I would be proud if I coudl do anything near this stuff!

So dont let the few harsh (and childish) comments hurt you (damn...
who gets the idea of posting something like
"I used to beat people like you up in high school"?? Man.. get a therapy... :surprised ) and keep on doing such enjoyable art!

The Kraut has spoken ;)

Carl

10-28-2002, 10:05 PM

I see that you've looked to art history for style and technique. You also might want to check out how past artists have dealt with the topic you are interested in (existential angst?). One of the most famous artist's for dealing with this was Giocometti. He was praised for capturing the feeling of personal isolation/angst after World War I. Sartre wrote essays about him, which is like maaad super-ultra bling bling props from the existentialists. Here is some of his work:

http://www.yale.edu/yup/images/0300092423.jpg

http://ceiba.cc.ntu.edu.tw/th9_207/15-05x.jpg

http://www.hayalevi.com/sanat_galerisi/Giacometti/gia-1950-forest.jpg

One other thing is that I'm a little confused by the undressing in the paintings. I think the idea of being unclothed could really work for you, but right now, especially in the third painting from the top, you're getting a bit of an erotic vibe that you might not want.

and of course great drawings :)

LewieM80

10-28-2002, 10:14 PM

:bounce: And this is for High school?

l_farley13_l

10-28-2002, 11:18 PM

Great job, but I'd agree on the triteness of the motivation. I think you succeeded on a level, portraying angst and depression, but it seems a bit contrived. Perhaps more like someone thinking of poem to write, and having a real hard time. The warm colors that continue through the piece are confusing as well, and for from morbid. You seem isolated but still all warm and cozy, in contrast with the cooling outside.

With more use of Chiaroscuro, you could bring out the blue tones in your skin like alabaster in the dark night. That would certainly leave a morbid feeling as the series progresses.

I think a big reason that people feel its photo retouched is the use of both filters and strong outlines. Both get it away from several ideals- specifically sfumato - there's harsh transitions away from the area of focus, yielding in a more harsh modern approach. In addition some good and subtle exaggeration would really help out with the facial expressions - I mean some nice grotesqueness

Well hope that's helps, even if you weren't looking for it ;)

Farley13

PS Modesty is the best policy!

Faeroon

10-28-2002, 11:32 PM

Ehm... plz dont hurt me for this dumb question but I HAVE TO ASK :D :

Since when has the german word for fear ("Angst") become an native english word?

Or am I getting anything wrong here?
Never heard that before in english context and was kinda surprised :p

Sorry for the interruption, thx for your patience.
*bows*

slime

10-28-2002, 11:39 PM

Please, don't think I want to flame or something, Freddio, but I think it's almost impossible to achive the quality of your paintings of this thread after seeing your level on your website. http://www.freq6.de/host/hugh/
After looking more closely, it's evident that you have painted over real photographs. An example is what is already posted; the portrait on the upper right corner of the second picture is a photo.
Please, don't think I'm jealous or something like that. I think this pictures are good, but are only that, painted over photographs.

I will be very glad to eat my words if you show some middle stage of any of your pictures.

Regards!:)

feefunk

10-28-2002, 11:48 PM

It's quite amusing to see how people come up with the most surprising comments at times... you can see who's insecure and who's open to learning from others, regardless of age.

Another thing I noticed is that the younger the artist (or to be fair, the ones without any formal art training, i.e.- those who speak solely in terms of Photoshop & CG) don't seem to acknowledge that the great masters WORKED ON IMITATION FIRST, before developing their own style.

Yes, the great masters of Painting (and also sculpting) while they were beginners, would spend sometimes years just copying the work of the Masters in order to understand technique and to practice. Painting from Photo reference is NOT cheating. Not everyone can afford to pay a live model, so photography is a good tool.
And yes, you'll have the people who say "well if you can take a photo then why would you want to paint it?" hmmm... I'd rather not go into that one right now.

Oh, and to the guy who said "you're the kid I beat up in high school" well you got your 15 minutes of fame. Enjoy them ;)

Cheers, and best of luck to Freddio.

slime

10-28-2002, 11:52 PM

I didn't complained that he was using references. of course that's perfectly normal. I say he is painting over the photos. You know. scan the photo (or load one made with a digicamera) into PS, apply some filters, make some strokes, aplly some texture, and it's done. 4 illustrations in 4 days, while in the site there are very few illustrations since 1999, and the quality is completely different.
Don't want to argue or flame. Only my point of view. :shrug:

Regards!

swann

10-29-2002, 12:06 AM

awesome:applause:

Freddio

10-29-2002, 01:19 AM

thanks guys,

Me undressing is hommage to carravagio!

Slime, nah they aren't painted over photo's but yes the hommages to Brian Dunlop and Carravagio on the table and the walls, are just scans out of art textbooks, i did not paint them. I wouldnt see the point.

ill tell you copying photos is not hard, any fool can achieve photorealism it is an acquired skill. Its just takes time and patience. Sign of an extremly talented artist is one who is able to create with no refernce.

that was a fear of mine, that people wouldnt respect this work because of its digital nature. That is why i chose to do the pencil series and show that I could create realism in a variety of mediums. Still there are those who are always skeptical. But thats not my problem. :)

Gamoron

10-29-2002, 01:19 AM

Cheers Slime. The guy has talent, he should develop it and not concentrate on painting over photos. This is an issue guys. It is like a 3d modeller taking a cast of their face and then using that pen thingamagig to convert it to digital verts. They didn't model it.

Originally posted by feefunk

Yes, the great masters of Painting (and also sculpting) while they were beginners, would spend sometimes years just copying the work of the Masters in order to understand technique and to practice. Painting from Photo reference is NOT cheating. Not everyone can afford to pay a live model, so photography is a good tool.

feefunk you are obviously not very versed in the histories of artists. I'm not sure but from what I was taught they apprenticed. And they didn't copy they did their own works and were aided - or they painted directly on the works of the master they were apprenticed to. Photography a good tool?
Yes if yoou reference it and not use it as the background image to paint over.

feefunk

10-29-2002, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Gamoron

feefunk you are obviously not very versed in the histories of artists. I'm not sure but from what I was taught they apprenticed. And they didn't copy they did their own works and were aided - or they painted directly on the works of the master they were apprenticed to. Photography a good tool?
Yes if yoou reference it and not use it as the background image to paint over.

Gamoron, if you've actually studied for example some of the Renaissance painters and read a biography or two, you'll remember that even Michelangelo would sit for hours and sketch, copy and reproduce works of art (paintings, frescoes, sculptures) from earlier artists who were considered the best at their craft.
Yes, apprenticeship came with its fair share of creative freedom, but usually it meant just executing the Maestro's vision, technique and artistic choices.

As Freddio mentions, "photorealism" is an acquired skill, and with the proper guidance, patience and a lot of practice one can learn how to do it.

I agree that sticking a photo on the scanner and applying some photoshop filters is not what I would call in any way Artistic. I can not tell if the pictures shown are done that way or not... I guess only the author knows for sure. If it was done without "cheating" then hats off, if not well... shame for pretending! :shame:

Freddio

10-29-2002, 02:25 AM

i give up :)

take em or leave em

xynaria

10-29-2002, 02:29 AM

Why the emphasis on technique in these crits. The images work or don't. Yes there's more to admire if they show a skill set, but then you are admiring the skill set not the image or its ability or not to communicate. :rolleyes:

doodledude

10-29-2002, 02:31 AM

no matter how or why, the pieces still exist

nobody else has created the same, they are art.

hell, if a photo is to be considered art, and they are; then anything this side or the other is as well.

Now then, there is much work to be done in all areas, from the blotched monitor to the penciled border work and all in between, however the mood has been set and well done at that, the depth is truly in the eye of the beholder.

well you get the gist, good stuff all in all, a few years more practice, some more insight from so many masters, a defining point of individual expression and voila, an artist is born :D

Keep at er :D

:thumbsup:

Freddio

10-29-2002, 03:30 AM

yes you are right i fake all my work, even my pencil drawings are smudged photos..

sigh..

Carnifex

10-29-2002, 03:48 AM

Hey, Freddio. Don't even let the naysayers get to you. It seems a rather sad side of the cg community that some people just can't admit that anybody would happen to be better than they are. So they call you a faker and other infantile things.
Ignore them. You have talent and don't let anybody else tell you anything different.

Keep up the awesome work.

regards

Ian

chris411

10-29-2002, 05:57 AM

Outstanding work. I especially liked how as the character becomes more depressed, his clothes come off symbolising his uncovered *situation* (arrrgh words fail me). I doubt I made any sense there. Anway, keep working at that as you have a hell of a career ahead of you.:)

Mamimi

10-29-2002, 06:47 AM

WOW. I can't believe the awesome texturing you got with the hair in the drawings...you got serious skill. Keep at it cause you are defenitely going somewhere. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

feefunk

10-29-2002, 07:06 AM

don't know if this thread has been -snipped- by the moderators, it appears I've missed the meaning of some of the comments here.

Anyhow, Freddio, please keep showing your great work in this forum, don't let a bit (or a lot) of criticism put you down. You don't really need some stranger's approval on your work. ;)

To Caravaggio!
:beer:

To Velazquez!
:beer:

Clanger

10-29-2002, 07:21 AM

Beautiful paintings, composition, colour balance both excellent.

I personally couldn't care less if they're copied/traced photos. It's totally irrelevant to the end result.

Anyone read David Hockney's 'Secret Knowledge’? Compelling evidence that most realistic painters since 1400 used some sort of optical device to help them. Including Van Eyck's Arnolfini Wedding.

Ian Jones

10-29-2002, 08:27 AM

For all the doubters out there, you are wrong!

I have seen Freddio Progress over a year or two at the Sijun forums. He is for real, does not fake and has in no way ever shown any signs of being merley a facade. He is a real nice guy and it is not fair of ppl to accuse him of anything without knowing his history. I personally guarantee he is for real. He is really talented.

It pains me to see so many fellow CG'ers accusing him of a photo paintover. Would you like it if I started to accuse some of your 3D work (the most part of these forums) of being a photo? Show some respect, we should be working together not against each other, to elevate the standards and gain respect from the public for digital art and design.

Why diss your own medium? I come across this is my everyday life, ppl see my work and when I tell them I did it with a computer they are so uneducated that they automatically assume it was just a 'create masterpiece' button or filter. This is of course Bullshit, anyone and everyone into CG knows that a lot of hard work is the only way to achieve excellence. It absolutely amazes me that even some of you guys, let alone the public are doubters. How do you expect the public to accept our medium when some of you try your hardest to hinder it and label it cheating.

You have to be the biggest moron ever if you diss the very medium that supports your interests, let alone your wallet. doubters, get a grip.

-dc-

10-29-2002, 09:59 AM

Ian Jones

10-29-2002, 10:08 AM

-Dc-: It is considered a little rude to post pictures unwarranted in someone else's thread. Post your own thread and let ppl critique it there plz.

-dc-

10-29-2002, 10:25 AM

Ian, my post is not meant to be rude, merely an attempt to point out the obvious....my "work":

photo, crop, grayscale mode, gausian blur, paint daubs, crosshatch, lighting effects, canvas, paint daubs..a few more filters...5 minutes into the making....

I'm sorry, but I have been using photoshop way too long to not recognize obvious things like the results of a dodge and burn...
Not to say my 2D is any good, because quite the contrary, it is absolutely horendous.

However, for a high school student to be commended for such a "valiant" effort in 2D of this calibre is absolutely appalling, and I will defend everyone who agrees that we want to see some proof that work like this can truly TRULY be done in 2D, without the help of a photo underlay.

Anyone, including me...a non 2D artist, with absolutely no talent for drawing/painting/etc, can push buttons in photoshop....

I admit the work on his website is quite impressive for his age, however the amount of his improvement is not justified in these PERFECT, and I mean SPOTLESS works....People may say "oh, there's no such thing as too good", or "it's art, either way!".

I look at the work of some amazing 2D artists on-line all the time, in awe of their talent and effort put into each piece. These artists truely give themselves to their work, and are dedicated to creating stunning images, not for us, but for themselves.

Anyone that comes on here, blantantly advertising his/her "agenda", and then goes on to further expound on that with certain theories of "mood" and "artistic influence" is truely undeserving of the credit given to them. No-one is born with a natural ability to create a masterpiece overnight. These skills are developed over long periods of time, and often are not even recognized by us until long after they are gone.

For a kid, in high school, to produce work like this AND STILL focus on all the other aspects of being a teenager, is undoubtedly a daunting task, and I for one, do not believe possible. If I am wrong, please, prove me wrong, I am not biased in my opinion, and I will easily be persuaded if only he can provide some proof...

This is all I ask....5 pages later....where is the proof???

Best regards,

Joe

Ian Jones

10-29-2002, 11:35 AM

*begin rant*

Work like this can be done in 2d. Where have you been?

Visit many sites around the net... off the top of my head.

www.goodbrush.com

www.vigilante.net/~loki/

www.dusso.com

In fact, so good is some of this work that you see it in movies all the time and never realise it is even there.

I have seen better than Freddio's work. Look into those websites to see some truly stunning stuff. He is really talented, come to Sijun.com and you will meet and interact with many of the finest young digital artists and professionals around.

I personally gaurauntee you he is not faking it. He used reference, photo-reference and he has said so himself, but he did not paintover. I have actually seen him progress over a couple of years. I have seen it with my own eyes, I assure you he is genuine. I haven't seen him around recently much because he has been so busy with these. He has certainly improved drastically over the past year. But I know that he showed the signs a few years back when I first discovered him. He showed back then as he has now the talent and dedication to learning. Besides, with my interactions with him now and then within the sijun forum he has consistenly been a great guy. I'm sure he will progress from here and I hope he keeps that his main motivation.

If you want proof goto Sijun and search for his thread there. As I remember he posted it in a near complete stage and we helped him with our second opinion and he made some more refinements to the finished stage.

If you consider that perhaps many of his older works are invented from his imagination, thus drawing upon his theoretical knowledge of light and shade, form, value, colour etc... then you cannot draw a strong argument against these newer pieces which he has used reference for. Of course with reference you will get more accurate and lifelike observations.

Perhaps my argument is pointless, maybe in my haste to defend him I have submitted to the same 'knee-jerk' reactionism that drives some of your responses. But I know in my mind from experience he is genuinely talented and a nice guy.

*end rant*

Freddio

10-29-2002, 11:59 AM

Thanks Ian,

all the works on my site, are purely fictional off the top off my head,

however for such an important body of work, which i have spent a whole year refining, touching up and redoing. I chose to work from references, I slavishly copied the details of my face and body, the rest of the pic I was more loose and delved into expressing emotion.

HEY Look I did some Pencil Drawings too!!!

No one seems to be commenting on my pencil drawings why? the same skills are referred back into a digital sense, except it is far easier.

I wouldnt mind it if you could point me in the direction of the Carravagio filter,

I hope im not sounding pretentious, im am almost 18, I realise and I am quite naive.

http://www.freq6.de/host/hugh/Galleries/digital/gladiator.jpg
Straight digital, copying a photo out of a movie mag.. did this when i was 15, imagine 2 years of rapid progression!

I can rummage up the progress shots when I can be bothered, but i dont see why I need to please those few, but I can see it helping others learn how I created these works, ill do that after my exams!

But Keep it cool guys :)

dont want any flames.

-dc-

10-29-2002, 12:16 PM

how long does it take to rummage? 5 minutes? seriously....are you THAT much better than all of us that you cannot take a moment out of your extremely busy life to just post a WIP pic???

When someone posts an outstanding 3D model, most people really like to see the wireframe, not only to show "hey, I did this!", but also to show others the topology and workflow used to create the model.

I'm not asking you to bend over backwards....how about a simple sketch? You know...pencil...paper....rough...IE: not touched up, not finished....

Is that SO hard?

Thanks for the links Ian, really great stuff..I couldn't help but notice those were all professionals, not 18 year old high school students. Eveyone deserves an equal chance, and age doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with his ability.

I don't care how nice a person is, that doesn't make them honest..I know some of the nicest liars in the world :) I'm sure he's a great guy.....6 pages later.....

no proof.....

Gamoron

10-29-2002, 01:26 PM

hats off to -dc-. Wish he had of taken it up 1st, I just came off very badly. Apologies.

-dc-

10-29-2002, 03:52 PM

Just thought I'd take a moment to recap...
Usually when a person isn't completely honest, it shows, as it's harder to keep a lie going over a period of time...
Notice:

Freddio "all the works on my site, are purely fictional off the top off my head"

Yet, not but 2 pages earlier....

Freddio "nearly everything on that site was down without photoreference."

Hmm? We now go from "Everything" to "nearly everything"....which is it?

Freddio then goes on to say how much talent is required to draw without reference...

"ill tell you copying photos is not hard, any fool can achieve photorealism it is an acquired skill. Its just takes time and patience. Sign of an extremly talented artist is one who is able to create with no refernce."

But then yet another contradiction...

"however for such an important body of work, which i have spent a whole year refining, touching up and redoing. I chose to work from references, I slavishly copied the details of my face and body, the rest of the pic I was more loose and delved into expressing emotion"

Then someone decides to call him out on his "frame" being the same...here we see two contradicting statements yet again...

Freddio "The backgrounds, lighting, textures etc are out of my head, thats the part which i enjoyed the most."

Freddio "yes the hommages to Brian Dunlop and Carravagio on the table and the walls, are just scans out of art textbooks, i did not paint them. I wouldnt see the point."

Of course, we must not forget Freedio's pencil drawings, where he not only manages to scrub out all the details of himself, perfectly proportioned from drawing to drawing, but he manages to somehow perfectly draw the accessories on the left hand side for each image....odd....

Oh yes, and let's not forget his oil paintings:

Freddio "I also did 3 oil paintings, but i dont have pics of them."

And how long did these take?

Freddio "i have spent a whole year refining"

Freddio "Ive been working on these series on and off for over a year"

Freddio "I spent loads more time than you can imagine"

Freddio "I have been so busy with school and other comitments"

One last thing....

Freddio "No one seems to be commenting on my pencil drawings why? the same skills are referred back into a digital sense, except it is far easier."

Yeah, that must've been a breeze in PhotoShop compared to the others....I can imagine the trouble you must've had scanning those damn photos in....

You have EVERY right to justify yourself and make me look like an ass, so I'd suggest you "rummage" pretty soon, before people catch on

......where's the proof?

Regards,

Joe

Faeroon

10-29-2002, 03:58 PM

Damn.. where's this thread heading?
Is this getting some kind of personal witch hunt?
It sounds rather like in a court and not like a friendly chat in a 3d board
where all should be friends (Let the power of love flow... peace folks... ;) )

Maybe he DID something that could be called "cheating" but
is it just me or does anyone else feel "baaaaaaaad vibrations" :surprised

parallax

10-29-2002, 04:00 PM

However it is done, nice work,

a few things though.

The difference in technique and style of the various pieces on your website is so big, that one could indeed think that photo's were used extensively.
I'm especially refering to the mad prof. sketch.
The time it took to make this picture is relatively long compared to the other pieces. It looks more like a line drawing done with a mouse, unless that was the style you were after.
You're progressing like a rollercoaster ride.

Keep it up though,

doodledude

10-29-2002, 04:23 PM

yea, this witch hunt bit is bullshit, pure and simple

very uncool

I could see if this individual had ripped these works, but it would seem that everybody agree's that this is not the case, yet this person has been put through just as many gears as if this would have been the case.

you don't like the work then say it, you like the work say it, but to drag anybody through the coals on pure speculation is nothing short of just plain being idiotic.

but, he's lying they say, he's cheating they say, what the fuc_ is this. Sounds more like a kangaroo court. I guess someone should practice law for potential defence if one wishes to post anything

who cares if it is a retouched photo, a legit piece of works or whatever?

Still looks pretty darn cool to me. I like the reflective mood that these pieces have cast, and I also like how they have managed to disturb the critics..........That alone suggests they have done the job, to bad the critics are simply to stupid and full of themselves to even understand this. He got to you through his work. Perhaps not the way one would/could expect, but, nontheless, he got to you.

and I am laughing my ass off because this young'n has managed to generate so much passion with but a couple of pieces

bravo....................... this thread was more entertaining than the boob tube was................ :applause:

Thanks Freddio, I for one can hardly wait for your next set of works.

-dc-

10-29-2002, 04:42 PM

there's no doubt he's talented doodle....really really talented....

It just pisses me off when people think they are so good, and yet, cannot admit to stupid little things....I overreacted probably, but damnit, if it's a friggin photo, just admit it! I still LIKE it, and it's still GOOD....I dont understand why people have say a bunch of crap about themselves in order to let people enjoy their work...His work is great, he just needs to rid himself of the ego, and let go a bit...

barley

10-29-2002, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by -dc-
there's no doubt he's talented doodle....really really talented....

I overreacted probably Yes, yes you did.
The last 4 or so pages of this thread have been almost nothing but flames and knee-jerk judgements.

It's amazing how volatile and vitriolic peoples comments can get when they find out the poster is either younger than them, or has a postcount below 5.

I give Freddio the benefit of the doubt because I've seen his progress over the years, from before the time Sijun went to shit. There is a big gap in time between the work on his site, and that he posted.
So what?
It's not a legal requirement to keep your website updated with the latest examples of your work. Two years is plenty time for him to knuckle down and work his ass off at improving his skills.

Asking for proof of his work is fine, hell, I'd love to see some progress pics to get an idea of his techniques, but turning it into a witchhunt and accusing him of doing photopaint-overs because you cannot come to terms with the fact an 18 year old made four very good digital paintings is completely out of order, and totally not in the spirit of this forum. The proportions on the arms in some of the photos dont look right enough for them to be paintovers anyways.

Give the kid a friggin' break.

doodledude

10-29-2002, 05:30 PM

You don't quite get it yet do you?

Let me break it down some

1) A photo is art
2) A retouched photo is art
3) we could go on here but, if you havn't got it yet perhaps you never will.

I would much prefer to hang these pieces on my wall than countless pieces of so called art I have seen in many galleries (real world galleries)

It wasn't, it is, it's art.....................of which has invoked much passion on both sides........ just what is art to be if not this?

I wonder how many retouches go into each frame of a terrific trailer................what, you mean they don't do it freehand, and in one take? Where the heck have I been?

What? PhotoShop or some other app was used on a piece? Duh!!!

You like it or you don't.......... period......... that it was seen, then created........... it is in fact art

You don't have to agree, that's cool, but to challenge something so obvious as the very definition of art is nothing short of arrogant.

We didn't say it was a masterpiece, but I would defend the premise that it is infact a form of art.................

A person throws some paint onto a canvas.........hey guess what, it's art..............A person picks up a piece of driftwood, takes it home, polishes it and stands it up on a table, yup, it's art............maybe not to your specific taste, but, it's infact art.

Aa fake in this case would be a rip........ not the case.......not a fake........... art, pure and simple.......... climb off your horse and enjoy....... :D

Gamoron

10-29-2002, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by doodledude
You don't quite get it yet do you?

Let me break it down some

1) A photo is art
2) A retouched photo is art
3) we could go on here but, if you havn't got it yet perhaps you never will.

No doodledude you don't get it. A digital painting is just that. A retouched photo is a RETOUCHED PHOTO. And should be said as such.
So many of you bleeding hearts here are saying its art.

"IT"S STILL ART!"

Who here has said it isn't! WTF!!!! I want clarity! Its not an issue about whether or not its art.

The world of art is completely ****ed! We're all wallowing in the mud after the passing of the last couple of masters. Art is art, sure. But their are those out there who are putting an awful lot of steam into their reasons for creating, generally because they don't have sufficient talent. There are a lot of people who put many years working hard intoachieve high levels of draftsmanship, and the images posted earlier in my mind disrespect that completely.

If not traced hacks, if not retouched photos and actually months of hard labour, then kick me in the ass and call me an idiot or worse. I'll deserve it.

Problem with web forums, there are people getting away with murder.

I'm done with this.

lildragon

10-29-2002, 06:15 PM

Ok sorry guys I have to step in here, first of all some of you (not naming names) need to get rid of the chip on your shoulders.

There's nothing beneficial in accusations and it always results in flames, these types of threads are getting ridiculously outta hand, when "photoreal" gurus step in.

I know it's very easy to point fingers and say "fake!" or "that's traced" when it comes to this type of art. But people please keep it civil, I know myself and some of the other mods, are sick of moving or closing these types of threads.

Please, please get your point across in a more civil manner and calm yourselves, it ain't worth it.

P.S. here's something to think about, all the peeps that are saying his artwork is to "different", ever thought that he's experimenting and haven't found his "niche" yet? he's a kid! I'm not taking sides, just being the voice of reason.

salud

Wiro

10-29-2002, 06:57 PM

I don't doubt that Freddio really is a talented artist. That he used photoreference is not a sin. People do that all the time and I don't think the picture is just "filtered".

So I won't go into the faking discussion at all, to me it's the piece itself that counts and this I do think is flawed at places.

first of all the jumps in style; why choose to go almost 100% photoreal on the face but not on the other parts of the room? It does seem like poor judgement to me to not keep the piece consistent. You liked working freehand on the surroundings, if this is what you preferred, why didn't you stick to it for the character? So what if it's then not quite as photoreal?...it's about the whole!

Secondly it's the heavy emphasis you've put into the meaning behind the picture and the references to other artists (...which DOES put you in the situation of being compared to them as well, wether you wanted this or not...)

To me at least (And also a few others I've read from here) hardly any of your described emotions come over. It doesn't look despairing, but rather tired. The nice warm colors give me a cozy feeling. And the emptyness of the room seems more forced than thought through.

You refer to old masters and have tried to partly emulate their style but to me it doesn't seem like you've understood the big picture of the moods, the composition, the lighting...

But that is all fine though! I have absolutely no problem with this and it's a great technical feat and does convey a mood albeit not the one you were aiming for!

I just think that the pieces aren't really worthy of the deep thoughts or references to masters...yet!
If you hadn't mentioned that in your post I think the reception of the pictures would have been much warmer.

Wiro

Faeroon

10-29-2002, 07:03 PM

*hugs lildragon and sighs*
Our hero!
*gives anyone a flyer with "Calm your fury - let the love flow"
and jumps happily to another cup of coffee*

lildragon

10-29-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Faeroon
*hugs lildragon and sighs*
Our hero!
*gives anyone a flyer with "Calm your fury - let the love flow"
and jumps happily to another cup of coffee*

I'm not sure how to take this, but it's my job as admin to keep the shouting down and keep this board professional. I'm all for getting your opinions across, but by keeping a civil tongue in your head, it's not much to ask.

If this was court the Judge would hold many here in contempt. Continue to discuss, I'm not stopping anyone, just stop acting like kids in a playground.

salud

Faeroon

10-29-2002, 07:31 PM

Take it as I wrote it - I, for myself, am sick of hearing all those
flame, harsh or whatever unfriendly comments.
"PROVE YOURSELF!!!" - sounds like "prove yourself WORTHY"
Prove? For what? That he can do nice stuff?

I know enough "professionals" and they ALL cheat like there's
tomorrow - who cares what the end picture looks like?
The client will be pleased if it looks the way he wants it and
that it's done in proper time.
I myself am not one of those professional 3d-worker-designer-what ever folks that seem to be anywhere today.
I'm just someone who likes art (and as stated above: Art is not easy to describe)
and my eye is pleased with the works of Freddio and (i say it again)
i dont give a sh*t if its done via a photoshop filter or not!

Ok ok - if he says "everything made by myself and hand drawn" and
some kind of fake is discovered its... ehm..:rolleyes: yeah,
maybe not pretty, but why did he get to the CGTalk Tops?
Only because of his handdrawing skills? Naha - because it look nice
and the admins thought other eyes would be pleased too - or am I wrong?

If you like the way his stuff looks - tell him.
If you dont like the way it is - tell him and then leave.
If you dont like the way he did it - wtf? Is it your business?

What is CG and Art about? We are all faking, aren't we?
Faking Mother Natures great (and pretty complicated) stuff and
we do ANYTHING to acchieve the so called "photorealism"
So let Freddio be - if he gets work because of those pics, sooner
or later he will have to prove it - but until then:

Its nice - its some kind of art - look at it or let it be!

And now anyone who doesnt like me, my opinion or anything
i wrote (maybe even my crappy english) may flame me.
*bows deeply , gets another cup of coffee and relaxes*

loganx3d

10-29-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by lildragon
Continue to discuss, I'm not stopping anyone, just stop acting like kids in a playground.

salud

I'm interested in the works-in-progress in terms of your workflow, and I'd love to see the reference photos you've worked from. I'm not a professional, I'm still learning, and clearly you're a better painter than I, so I would really like to see your process... not for the sake of proof.

BTW, I'd just like to say that your write-up is confusing, to say the least. You make strange connections between unrelated ideas and say things about your pieces that I quite frankly do not see, leaving me more puzzled. Perhaps a better, more concise explanation could be as follows:

:-) --> :-(

anim8r2

10-29-2002, 08:13 PM

I personally don't care so much "how" artwork is created. I'm looking at the finished work. And these are AWESOME Freddio!

Having actually attended artschool, I KNOW that even the masters used many of the famous tricks of the trade (framed wire grids--later became known as simply, the grid method, projections of worked gestures--light boxes, etc.). Whether Freddio worked with tracings, grids, retouching photos, filters, or whatever, no one can deny the incredible results. Such moodiness and framing. Very impressive.

And sorry, but that is EXACTLY what clients want. The end result. They could give a rat's ass 'how' their freelancing artist got there.

Comparing this body of work to the "poser" moron is wrong. The kid with the poser piece did absolutely NONE of the mesh building, texturing, posing, compositing, etc. of the piece that he claimed was his own. That was plagerism. His threads were deleted for good reason. Freddio is not a plagerist, he created some truly powerful and original imagery. He should be welcome in this forum and should be treated with respect.

So consider me a fan of this kid's artwork.

RadiantWings

10-29-2002, 08:29 PM

Actually I think that the saying the end result is great, who cares how he did it, should not apply here

Yes many people cheat in making their final images, I myself use gridding in my pencil drawings. But cheating is only valid if you get rid of all evidence of the cheating. The works need to look as if they were created without any shortcuts. These images look like photos with filters applied and then some brush work over top. They may or may not be. But I am saying that is what it looks like, even the pencil ones. And to me that is distracting from the actual images.

psumo

10-29-2002, 08:33 PM

ya I was being childish...
I was trying to defend Gamorons point of view
cause he was being flamed

baby

10-29-2002, 09:18 PM

no more post from me, I take off mine...

Freddio

10-29-2002, 10:31 PM

Hey, guys. Just keep it calm, its just a few pictures I wanted to share, no need to get all worked up over it.

Im writing a tutorial on the first image now, steps and illustrated pics.

I should be posting it soon.

:)

anyway good day. I guess i just have to take these negative comments as a compliment haha.

xynaria

10-30-2002, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Freddio

anyway good day. I guess i just have to take these negative comments as a compliment haha.

I would possibly also take them as hilarious..after all the main gripe seems to be that if you have a photo in front of you and you draw on a tablet or piece of paper using that as reference then you are supremely skilled but if you scan the photo and *cough* draw over it you are not. DOH!!!
Anyways, I think enough as been more than said on that *cough* 'issue', and just thought to mention that regardless of your intentions etc etc, are you aware of the work of Edward Hopper, because the second two pics did rather make him spring to mind.. and that is, in many ways, meant as a compliment. :)

l_farley13_l

10-30-2002, 06:23 AM

Well said Wiro - I was trying to get to that a couple of pages back! Sure tricks and things were and are used, 3d for perspective etc. Naw it isn't cheating, but it's a complete mis-use of the format to simply copy shades and colors off a picture; you loose any freedom that painting inherently has! It's the old color picker thing- Exagerate! Hell the Mona Lisa doesn't even have eyebrows!

Farley13

chlywly

10-30-2002, 08:59 PM

Not sure what to say here, I can't tell about the photoshop works because the majority of them look like filters, and ive been a designer/painter for over 6years now.

The pencils are a good start but they are a little too blurry smudgy, also the lighting can use some work; try to concentrate on line and stroke instead of smudging, it will develop your hand.

Although judging by the sevear difference in quality between pencils and paints I have a feeling you didnt do the photoshops by hand :)

I mean the first image looks painted, sort of; but the other 2 are not and im 95% sure of that :)

danteort

10-30-2002, 11:56 PM

Ok, just for the sake of argument, and to try to illustrate one of the issues people are having, let's assume these are painted over photographs or photos sent through a few photoshop filters (or a combination of the two). The issue here is not that he did this, but it's that he has claimed to have painted these by hand, from photo reference.

If there's no difference between painting from photo reference and painting *over* photos, then why lie about it? THAT'S what is bothering a lot of people. Whether or not these pieces were done by hand, they LOOK like they were photo paintovers or filtered.

What cheapens the efforts of a lot of people is when someone claims to have done something they did not do. When someone posts a photographs and claims it was done in 3d, then it cheapens the work of all the 3d artists out there. Similarly, when someone takes a photograph, runs it through some photoshop filters, and claims that it is hand painted, then it cheapens the work of a lot of artists out there. If these are in fact paintovers, then this whole debate wouldn't be happening if he had initially said "These were photos of me that I fed through some filters and added did some painting over to achieve a look I like."

Let me state that I do not believe one way or the other whether or not this work is "legit." I am only trying to further the discussion (not the flame war, but the discussion). In either case, these images DO look good, and Freddio should be proud of them (as he seems to be).

xynaria

10-31-2002, 01:04 AM

Danteort, whilst your points are totally valid, they are only so in terms of the means of producing an image not whether that image is 'doing anything' for anyone. Maybe because I'm from a fine art background, I'm both more used and tired of these arguments. Few, myself included, have talked about the images, but most rather on how they may have been produced and what skill set they may indicate, the inference being that painting over photos and using filters requires little, referencing from a photo, maybe a lot, and presumably drawing from life even more. Whilst there's an element of 'truth' in this on a technical level, again its only talking about how, not showing any signs of the charge of .. hey that's really connecting (choose relevant phrase of choice).
Personally, as you yourself have indicated, Freddio has no reason particularly to lie, and I for one will take him at his word. The pieces don't work for me in the way he perhaps intended but he is obviously talented and should be encouraged and recognised for what he has acheived, rather than running the gaunlet of other peoples obsession with so called skill levels over content IMHO. There is also no small irony in the fact that most of the PS filters he may possibly have used are ones based on emulating various 'painting' techniques. :)

TrueOG

11-02-2002, 02:55 PM

For those too much worried about the chance of tracing real photos:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/art/vermeer_camera_01.shtml

So Vermeer was an asshole.:thumbsdow

googlo

11-02-2002, 03:13 PM

No, :), only if he said that he didn't trace or copy his paintings. I'm talking strictly about Vermeer. It doesn't make him an asshole, just a liar. Did he say that he made his paintings from real life?

TrueOG

11-02-2002, 03:47 PM

Absolutely agree with u, googlo.

What I was trying to point out is that artists have always tried to take advantage of all kind of media to approach what they wanted to show.

For me, I don't give a s*** if Freddios is manipulating photos rather than painting everything from scratch or not (as he has said).
The final piece of "art" is what I care. As long as I like it (or not) or feel it appeals for something, I don't care very much about the steps the artist follows.

The funny thing is that some people seem to feel some kind of offense in the chance of using stuff other than the very hand of the artist; and even funnier when most of us are working with a very abstract substance that cames out of our computers.

Regards

Wiro

11-02-2002, 11:21 PM

So what if vermeer traced?

He still had more than enough sense to make his works masterpieces even if he used aids. I think some of you miss the point...tracing is easy, making something worthwhile ONTOP of that is the trick.

Wiro

mushroomgod

11-03-2002, 12:13 AM

well.... i couldent give a flying F*&K how you did them...thay all look great.
:thumbsup:

.:Jupiter_Jazz

11-03-2002, 04:47 AM

it seem that all the flamers are jelous that some one younger than them can surpass their artistic abilities so greatly, or that anyone in general can surpass their artistic abilities, but i guess thats human nature :shrug: . this just further proves my theory that apes evolved from us, not the other way around, it seems much more logical that way.

TrueOG

11-03-2002, 01:39 PM

Hey Wiro!

I think that I didn't explain myself clearly.
I think Vermeer was a REAL artist.
I just wanted to point out the fact that the means an artist use to make his work is not important, taking Vermeer as an example.

Mmmm, maybe my english is a little rusty ;)

Regards

slime

11-03-2002, 02:32 PM

Come on, guys, drop this topic. I think is not adding anything interesting to the community and is growing too much.
Comparing these works with vermeer... :eek: Don't you think is too much? Why don't we let is this way:

01 - The pictures of this guy are very nice.
02 - Vermeer is Vermeer. (no computer or digital camera, using real paintings, you know... :arteest: )
03 - (taken fron wiro's post) - tracing is easy, making something worthwhile ONTOP of that is the trick.

Regards.

Daniel.

[ Oh, and I don't think the flamers are jelaous :D :rolleyes: ]

Edan

11-04-2002, 03:09 AM

Hey Freddio,

Somebody just pointed me to this thread. Very nice work. I can't be bothered reading the whole thread here (I see something negative developing on this last page) but I do have a comment to offer.

The thing that bothers me most about your non-colour work is the fact you smudge. It's a pet hate of mine, something I despise (perhaps as you get older you'll grow out of it.... hopefully).

I think of drawing a lot like I think of painting; you need to build the tones with many layers of fine pencil work (and never work with a blunt pencil, especially for fine areas of shading. Keep your pencils nice and sharp)

Other than that, very nice

danRod

11-04-2002, 04:10 AM

Dude......people are harsh!! The kids obviously got talent in rendering, the only problem I have is that no posts have been made showing his ability to not trace, so to say. However it is done, it looks great!! If you took the pictures yourself, than it is also your sense of capturing that emotion or feeling you are getting from these illustrations, therfore it is your work. If not.... I am sorry, but it is copying. But about the art history issue, it is Picasso that said, "good artists copy, and great artists steal"

L8trs

sanhueza

11-04-2002, 04:29 AM

Freddios, one of the best signs of a great artist is the ability to attract critics. That rare talent to instill people with the desire to tear you down and your art with it, causing them to rant and say things like "cheat" "fake" and "that's not real art."

I hope you're not letting it get to you and are learning what to expect in the future from certain types in the industry. Just keep working on your art, the artist is his own most important audience anyway. Well, next to the guy who writes you the checks... :D

And to all the flamers who have been posting here recently, shame on you! :shame: :shame: :shame:

- Me

googlo

11-04-2002, 05:25 AM

sanhueza,

Artists tend to be critical. (over sensitive bastards!) :)

Chong

11-05-2002, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Wiro
to me it's the piece itself that counts and this I do think is flawed at places.

I agree Wiro. And I agree with his critiques too. The thread should have ended at this post...ah well:sad:

Chong

11-05-2002, 04:58 AM

CGmonkey

11-05-2002, 08:50 AM

Great work, Freddio! I'm so jealous of your artistic sense, being your age I wish I could create half the art you can create! I would've been VERY proud over this.

It has been interesting to read this thread. Some of the members have tried provocative to "claim" the truth by deeply examine Freddios words. It's sad to see :( It's sad to see that you can't enjoy art, whatever the opinions of the author are..

I wish Freddio best of luck in the future, and I truely hope that you'll stay here with us despite what has happened here!