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at_626
07-21-2005, 01:00 PM
What do you expect Newtek will offer at Siggraph... have a guess, just for fun.

I think NT will release 64bit LW9 (Yep!).:applause::eek: :bounce: :love:

Zarathustra
07-21-2005, 01:46 PM
9 would be something you'd have to pay for.
If they show an update, it would have to be 8.x. They still owe a bit for the initial 8 update.

This kind of thread is on every forum, isn't it? There's a lengthy one on Splinecage.com, too.

Nemoid
07-21-2005, 03:45 PM
i think they will offer a 8.5 free upgrade.

but who knows they could at least announce
something new too. 64 bit should be out too.:)

kangonto
07-21-2005, 04:00 PM
Maybe an 8.5 Update with its correspondant 64bits version.

Exper
07-21-2005, 04:14 PM
Maybe the long awaited and revolutionary Alphabetical Listings (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=38090) feature! :p

pixym
07-21-2005, 05:23 PM
I don't expect specially anything free...
The ONLY thing I expect is the announce of a fast GI solution for animation that can be used in a renderfarm.
I am looking at translating my scene from LW to Max (by fbx format from Alias) in order to render animation with vray wich is far... far faster

TRick
07-21-2005, 06:22 PM
...I am looking at translating my scene from LW to Max (by fbx format from Alias) in order to render animation with vray wich is far... far faster

Just use Polytrans (www.okino.com (http://www.okino.com/)) for this...works like a charm...

monovich
07-21-2005, 07:14 PM
I'm expecting self-aware code that rewrites itself to optimize on a per-scene basis, and also when it encounters bugs... sort of like how our immune system adapts...

it'll be a free upgrade, too.

The only downside will be that it gets lonely if you don't use it a enough and can have unexpected results.

-s

richcz3
07-21-2005, 07:22 PM
I personaly would not want to see 8.5 being released unless there were some significant additions/fixes in it. We just received 8.3 and it doesn't seem to be enough development time to warrant a .5 release so soon.
I would expect talk or examples of the 8.5 features that are being worked on. That would lead to introducing David Ikeda and the other new employee additions to the 3D team. A bit "o smoke and mirror" -then the draw the curtain glimpse, hold on to your hats planning for LW9.

Dragon_Lee
07-22-2005, 05:36 AM
I personaly would not want to see 8.5 being released unless there were some significant additions/fixes in it. We just received 8.3 and it doesn't seem to be enough development time to warrant a .5 release so soon.


I agree with you here...

Just expecting them to show the "worlds first animation made with 64bit 3D software" that they've been shouting here and there ... and then introduce LW64, with options to pre-order or something along those lines...

Perhaps some tidbits of whats in the works for Lw8.5 but I don't expect mindblowing information ... am hoping they mention the rewrite of the SDK etc. is well on course and more might be opened up for plugin developers soon? (seems the sdk rewrite program isn't so publicly discussed lately ... but worley seems to have something up his sleeve ... so here's hoping that thats it)

LW9? I hope it is far off, give them plenty time to develop a whole next generation 3D app...

mav3rick
07-22-2005, 08:36 AM
:twisted: chocolate cookies and hot horny blondes and proton and da deuce are runnin presentation showcase on them. i can already give them idea for showname
PIMPTEK! the future of 3d!:)

Emmanuel
07-22-2005, 03:32 PM
I guess those NT folks don't start coding 8.5 after 8.3 has been released.
I bet its an ongoing rpocess and 8.3 was ready a few weeks before its release,
and since the programmers are specialised, its also safe to say that the modeling programmers went on while the Layout programmers finished their Layout updates.
As we speak, NT is probably having a new update ready (beeing tested) for Siggraph and is already working on the next revision.
But due to marketing and other reasons, updates are timed not only by date of readiness, but also by date of "when its a good idea to release it", like in: we release something every quarter of the year, even if we could release two in a quarter, we release only one and keep the next for the following quarter to make customers happy and secure that we keep developing.
Marketing, politics, psychology....if it was by readiness, NT could release an update every month I guess...but wouldn't that be boring :) ?

paul k.
07-22-2005, 05:49 PM
You may be right but, I think new tek needs to show something that is actually new, not just to LW but our industry. You are not going to recruit new users by showing the improved bevel tool. It just isn't going to happen. No one is going to leave a package like maya that they have already paid for, and learned, and jump ship based and small enhancments to the current tool set.

They need to show that they have innovative ideas. That they design tools that work better and that as an overall solution LW offers a set of tools that are not only more efficient but state of the art.


The fixes are great. Making our current tools better is fine. Updating the renderer is cool and all, but we need some innovation. That has been extremely missed over the last four years or so.

Zarathustra
07-22-2005, 06:09 PM
Damn Paul, that's a pretty good assessment of the situation. We LW users argue over such minutia like bug fixes and feature improvements and all of these "advancements" really only resonate in our community.
You're right. The updates aren't really innovative in the sense of luring people from other apps. At best, it's like trying to hold back it's users from migrating elsewhere.

Aegis Prime
07-22-2005, 06:52 PM
It's a tricky situation - particularly if you want to appeal to studios. LightWave's current best feature as far as I'm concerned is the renderer - it's fast, easy to configure, comes with unlimited (near enough) render nodes for free and produces excellent results - it's a very cost-effective and predictable solution for rendering.

Second best feature is the Modeler which again, is very capable and experienced LightWave people can model very quickly and efficiently with it.

Unfortunately, these are the two parts of LightWave which have recieved the least attention over the last few years - I couldn't care less about the animation toolset 'cause I don't use it - Maya, XSI, Motionbuilder and Messiah are light-years ahead and it's a pretty straightforward process to get the animation out of them and into LightWave.

A studio that uses LightWave in its pipeline for rendering may start to use more of LightWave's functionality if the animation tools, particles, dynamics etc. are more capable or at least more efficient than their current toolset but this is highly unlikely in LightWave's current form.

A studio that doesn't have LightWave in it's pipeline is only likely to use it if there's something to gain and the longer it takes to bring the renderer and the modelling tools back to the state-of-the-art, the less likely that is to happen.

This is why Luxology's strategy looks pretty sound - what are they providing? A state-of-the-art modelling package and a (we're led to believe) cutting-edge renderer - NewTek needs to start thinking more seriously about the needs of studios unless they want LightWave 3D to become just the tool of freelancers, small studios and hobbyists.

SpikeWorx
07-22-2005, 07:21 PM
@Aegis Prime
I agree with you 200% !

richcz3
07-22-2005, 09:06 PM
...NewTek needs to start thinking more seriously about the needs of studios unless they want LightWave 3D to become just the tool of freelancers, small studios and hobbyists.
That point hits solidly.
I can not in good conscience tell someone to take up Lightwave if they are not going into business for themselves. There's allot to be said about LW's affordability 'out of the box" solutions for freelancers, small biz, or hobbiests, but those qualities and benefits are increasingly being challenged. Even the E-On Vue Infinite bundle is thin when E-Ons own site plays up better integration with MAX and Maya. :sad:

EDIT: My Error. The site does say there is an update planned for BOTH Lightwave and C4D

LINK (http://e-onsoftware.com/Press/PR.php?date=July%2022,%202005)

"Vue Fusion is expected to ship this fall. A version of Vue Fusion for LightWave and Cinema4D is currently under development. Other renderers are under consideration."

RobertoOrtiz
07-22-2005, 09:36 PM
People continue to keep the thread civil before we go into Holy war territory.

I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

-R

Nemoid
07-23-2005, 06:38 AM
Guys we are into a transition situation. and this transition has started quite since 8.0 was released. Nt team, is addressing Lw problems working on the core , other than things in the surface. a demonstration are subpatch UV map without distortions, and other things wich aren't so noticeable so far, but are there.

fact is : nt team is working hard, but overhauling an app to give us features impossible to have with the old core, like edges support as an item, , ngons a more,opened sdk, and maybe a diffrent base structure fror the app, isn't that easy and requires time. and Nt is doing that on a gradual step by step basis rather than retire themselves somewhere and return 2 years later with a brand new Lw version. so that's why we see new features added gradually and not an explosion of entire toolsets added or entire overhauls.

we'll probably see at Siggraph some new tools and advacements of 8.3 in maybe a 8.5, or even 8.4 release, and then maybe nt will release soon the 64 bit version. other than this they could show or explain better what's in the works for the 8.x roadmap, wich should end IMO after other point releases, with a great 9.0 release , that maybe also revolutionary compared to what we have now.

I perfectly know that comparing Lw with other apps out there, we should be into an exciting and revolutionary 9.0 version right now.
but Lw suffers from being not developed very cleverly and seeing what was happening in the 3d world for about 3 years, in wich alot of things should have been implemented. since the new team has been formed, things started to change drastically, and that's why i am optimistic about Lw future.:)

rickycox
07-23-2005, 12:33 PM
Can we please get edges and a pipe to Zbrush and better intergration of FPrime. Think how sad it'll be if 9 comes out and we still don't have edges.

telamon
07-23-2005, 05:28 PM
This is why Luxology's strategy looks pretty sound - what are they providing? A state-of-the-art modelling package and a (we're led to believe) cutting-edge renderer - NewTek needs to start thinking more seriously about the needs of studios unless they want LightWave 3D to become just the tool of freelancers, small studios and hobbyists.

I am not sure if it is a strategy or a matter of facts. These guys were able to develop a killer modeler and a killer renderer. This is what they are able to do quickly and effectively. Those who look down to animation toolsets in the past did not become super-specialist of character animation in two years... That is the reason for Nexus which was planned but could not be issued in line with Modo.

Anyway, personnaly, I do not expect anything spectacular from Newtek's booth at Siggraph. I hope I am wrong but I do not believe I will be astonished.

As said by Paul K above, the feature requests we make on a daily basis are not matter for any major release. NT did an average LW7, a mediocre LW8 (compared to the progress made by other packages on the market). They MUST do a killer innovant LW9 if they do not want their product to be disregarded by the market. And this killer LW9 requires a brilliant LW8.5 which should encompass the majority of the requests made here even if it is a lot of work. They could fix partly the UV distortion for 8.2 (or 8.3 can't remember) they should be able to implement at least NGons and improve OpenGL in LW8.5 or LW8.6.

richcz3
07-23-2005, 06:30 PM
I imagine that 64Bit LW will be front and center as well as demonstrations of Lightwave using Multicore processors. I would hope there would be the introductions of Jay Roth and Mark Granger and the work they have been working on since joining the team. Also the intro of David Ikeda and what he will be introducing to the LW tool set.
Then we get preview samples of improved performance features, rendering speeds, and additional tools we can look forward to see in 8.5. That's pretty conservative but realizable.

I would hope that the LW team is working on better integration with other application developers. For me its not just LW's innovation but the need for cleaner pipelines between other applications like ZBrush.

T4D
07-24-2005, 04:40 AM
fact is : nt team is working hard, but overhauling an app to give us features impossible to have with the old core, like edges support as an item, , ngons a more,opened sdk, and maybe a diffrent base structure fror the app, isn't that easy and requires time. and Nt is doing that on a gradual step by step basis rather than retire themselves somewhere and return 2 years later with a brand new Lw version. so that's why we see new features added gradually and not an explosion of entire toolsets added or entire overhauls.

that's all fine but these are some things we all know that they need to work on now

Modeler - ngons, Edges & better commands and user interface
Rigging- operator stack, constraints, IK, motion mixer ( note this is a Rigging Item )
Characrter animation- lock & hide channels, graph editor, Needs Rigging improment AND SPEED on all levels
Layout - needs point and polygon editing better spreadsheet, Cloth, SDK
surfacing & Render- Nodes surface editor, Sub pixel displacement,SSS, SPEED !
AND A Major workflow improvment on all levels

and these's are just off the top of my head I'm sure everyone can think of more.

no other 3D app has a list this long of user needs ! ( not wants they are all NEEDS !!)
( maybe truespace or hash but let's not put Lightwave down with them just yet )

all the other 3D apps have teams working just as hard as NT,
right now they working on new stuff !!
the other guys are working in a code base that's not over 15 years old,
Lightwave is the only app that hasn't had a rewrite and it's behide in features,,?
they may be related some how ? :rolleyes:

Lightwave 8.5 I feel is crunch time for Lightwave I would love them to pull a magic rabbit out of the bag I uses lightwave and want to keep using it But LW 8.5 IS the most important update in the histroy of NewTek and Lightwave

most users did ask themselfs was Lw 8 really worth it ( for me the timeline and dope sheet did make my workflow better )
but was it worth the $1200 Oz dollars i paid and the wait ?...............

DO I want to do that again ?
( I know i will buy LW 9 but I'm going to wait for the special's this time:thumbsup: )

Anyway Hope them the best I learnt to walk in Lightwave but now i can RUN !!!:buttrock:

Megalodon
07-24-2005, 05:40 AM
Peter,

I KNEW you couldn't hold back very long...

...no other 3D app has a list this long of user needs ! ( not wants they are all NEEDS !!)
( maybe truespace or hash but let's not put Lightwave down with them just yet )

Uhmmm... unless you know EVERY other app inside and out, how can you even begin to make that claim? Users of other apps may have completely different requests that you know nothing about. It's just a rather general and unrealistic assessment.

all the other 3D apps have teams working just as hard as NT, right now they working on new stuff !!

Again... do you really know what all the other teams are actually doing? It's not that any of them may NOT being working hard, but the fact is how can you say that when you don't REALLY know? You can surmise, yes. There are many factors that can play into "how dedicated and hardworking" other people are. For instance... Let's say (for the sake of argument) that Newtek has a great working environment and everyone is happy to come to work. And (again for the sake of argument)... Alias has a lousy working environment and many team players would rather take the day off. The point is Peter, you can't assess what EVERYONE at EVERY company is doing and how well (or not) they are working on their respective apps.

Anyway Hope them the best I learnt to walk in Lightwave but now i can RUN !!!:buttrock:

And there is is again... another little dig at Lightwave. It's nothing major, nothing huge... but you can't stop chipping away can you? It's not that I'm really annoyed with the post - I just wanted to point it out. Now you're NOT slamming LW, but you are putting it down. As we all know you're using XSI: LW = walk; XSI = run.

:)

Megalodon

Panikos
07-24-2005, 05:46 AM
Sorry to say that the LW8.* upgrade was the only case I felt that I was paying money for something that didnt worth the price (Compared to the previous upgrades)

Nobody forced me to upgrade (even though its not as simple as that)
But by paying Newtek and continue to have faith in Newtek products, me, you, everyone is somehow becoming a shareholder cause we finance the evolution and future of Newtek.

Where's Newtek's AmbientOcclusion, SSS, decent caustics, faster GI, just to name the few.
Why do we need these ? I wish it wasnt me, but clients are comparing me with other houses using other apps.

LW8.* was mostly a bug fix upgrade, an OpenGL bug fix (who forgets the corrupted Panels of LW7.*)

Newtek had sufficient period to overtake the obstacles after the new dev-team was formed. If the near future steps wont be brave and stable, I will consider other options.

Just my .01 cent.

Lique
07-24-2005, 05:49 AM
What NewTek will offer at Siggraph... ?

Newtek will offer *FREE* bbq chicken pizza, with salad :)

T4D
07-24-2005, 06:59 AM
Peter,

I KNEW you couldn't hold back very long...

I was thinking I kept it pretty happy :)



Uhmmm... unless you know EVERY other app inside and out, how can you even begin to make that claim? Users of other apps may have completely different requests that you know nothing about. It's just a rather general and unrealistic assessment.



for me the big 3 3D apps at teh moment are Maya XSI and C4D
I have used XSI and Maya only played with a C4D demo 6 or 9 months back.

XSI needs better texturing and simpler render setup and they are working on it
( i emailed them about it and WOW that emailed me back talking about it )
other then that, there's really not many people say XSI is missing anything ? & I beleave them

Maya has Modeling issues and I know Many Maya people have enjoyed Modo cause of it, I hear working speed is becoming a issues as well, but very minor points
many still find Maya to be a great modeler and Maya is faster then LW in CA SO..

C4D well i do read the Character animation tools aren't up to it, also it hasn't got a Lscript ( notepad type written script interface ) C4D is the one i have had the least to do with so That is all i know but read alot of great things from EX-lightwaver

Max users got all the developers were sacked last year and the new guys are in the building Many MANY max users have moved to XSI and Maya because of this news. and the remaining users want are rewrite ( IMO I don't count Max in the big 3 3D apps I think C4D has it's place at the moment )


unlike in LW forums there aren't many threads in the other apps forums
talking about missing X features, OR how to improve X??

Check out the other forums here a CGtalk this stuff is easy to find out, Maybe when you read other forums then come back at this LW forum you may see different subjects ??




Again... do you really know what all the other teams are actually doing? It's not that any of them may NOT being working hard, but the fact is how can you say that when you don't REALLY know? You can surmise, yes. There are many factors that can play into "how dedicated and hardworking" other people are. For instance... Let's say (for the sake of argument) that Newtek has a great working environment and everyone is happy to come to work. And (again for the sake of argument)... Alias has a lousy working environment and many team players would rather take the day off. The point is Peter, you can't assess what EVERYONE at EVERY company is doing and how well (or not) they are working on their respective apps.



that is such a one sided argument Your saying I'm wrong Because
" I think all the developers are working just as Hard as each other "
it's a pretty normally opinion to have really :shrug:

tho Your opinion is I should be thinking
" those other 3 guys "could " be lazy and that's why Newtek is faster ??

but if your being that flexiable maybe think of it this way
" those other 3 guys "could " be Faster and that's why Newtek is slower ??
that's not being negative I'm just using the same logic as Megalodon as an exsample.

so in other words the other Developers are rabbits sitting down middle race and the turtle will catch up ? where do we live again ??

Sorry I'm really not trying to be negative to NT here,
( tho I'm sure Many will jump in and pull this post apart to start something Hey Opps :blush: )

but that opinion is really weird man
all 3D software companies are in business to make money $$$ ( except blender )
No developer gives they programers 6 to 12 month hoilday for a good release ?
they go back to work the next day just like the rest of us do.

you seem to be attacking me here Megalodon
What i posted was just my opinion I never stated I was posting facts
it was just my opinion. like anyone elses here has done..

everything I posted can be checked out with some google surfing
all the listed missing feature have had many threads here to back them up.
everyone has read and seen that Newtek has had a slow development cycle for afew months as the new guys come in.

I don't see the need to try and single me out in this thread ?




And there is is again... another little dig at Lightwave. It's nothing major, nothing huge... but you can't stop chipping away can you? It's not that I'm really annoyed with the post - I just wanted to point it out. Now you're NOT slamming LW, but you are putting it down. As we all know you're using XSI: LW = walk; XSI = run.
Megalodon

Your looking for something to piss at and your reading into that, what you wanted !

you could have read it as
I learnt to walk in LW Now i can RUN in Lightwave !

best read it like this tho
"I will always have a soft spot for LW because i learnt 3D in it. but I'm not a newbie anymore."

i never said the XSI word Once in my first post ? but you seemed to imply i did ?
I Didn't think my post was overly negative, just opinion I Hope LW 8.5 will be Huge

And most here know I can really Be alot more negative to my old mate Lightwave then what I posted :D.

you missed the bit about LW 8.5 being a very important release for Newtek
did you disagree or agree ??

seems LW Fans always reply to only half my post's, I wonder why ??

Nemoid
07-24-2005, 07:28 AM
that's all fine but these are some things we all know that they need to work on now

Modeler - ngons, Edges & better commands and user interface
Rigging- operator stack, constraints, IK, motion mixer ( note this is a Rigging Item )
Characrter animation- lock & hide channels, graph editor, Needs Rigging improment AND SPEED on all levels
Layout - needs point and polygon editing better spreadsheet, Cloth, SDK
surfacing & Render- Nodes surface editor, Sub pixel displacement,SSS, SPEED !
AND A Major workflow improvment on all levels

and these's are just off the top of my head I'm sure everyone can think of more.

no other 3D app has a list this long of user needs ! ( not wants they are all NEEDS !!)
( maybe truespace or hash but let's not put Lightwave down with them just yet )

all the other 3D apps have teams working just as hard as NT,
right now they working on new stuff !!
the other guys are working in a code base that's not over 15 years old,
Lightwave is the only app that hasn't had a rewrite and it's behide in features,,?
they may be related some how ? :rolleyes:

Lightwave 8.5 I feel is crunch time for Lightwave I would love them to pull a magic rabbit out of the bag I uses lightwave and want to keep using it But LW 8.5 IS the most important update in the histroy of NewTek and Lightwave

most users did ask themselfs was Lw 8 really worth it ( for me the timeline and dope sheet did make my workflow better )
but was it worth the $1200 Oz dollars i paid and the wait ?...............

DO I want to do that again ?
( I know i will buy LW 9 but I'm going to wait for the special's this time:thumbsup: )

Anyway Hope them the best I learnt to walk in Lightwave but now i can RUN !!!:buttrock:

well, IMO things are like that : Lw suffers for not being developed in the past in the right direction. this means we have a gap of quite 3 years as i said earlier. and in CG field this is a huge gap, especially regarding the core.
so, i can understand why people complains about these features.

in an amount of time like this, some app has been rewritten, like Maya, XSI, Max. these apps are based onto a modern core, code and structure in wich implementing new things, is qute easy.
Lw, its still based on the old core, and structure that hastings and ferguson gave to it. the 6.0 "rewrite" was the first wrong step in development IMHO. because that was the time to really overhaul the app and recode it from scratch.
for some reason this wasn't possible,or wrong decisions were taken, and that's why we have to recover a gap now.

my opinion is : if you don't see Nt adding needed features like ngons, edges, and all things in your list now, its because they're working to the core to have the possibility to implement them afterwards. they simply aren't possible with the current-old core... but hey.. they are working on it, so things will change.

other apps i quoted, are based onto modern code, and language. so, actually, they work hard, but its easier for their teams to implement new features quite easily into their app. also, they copy each other in features and tools many times.
its so easier for them to do this job, that actually, i'd expect more from them,for example in maya a better modelling workflow, comparable to Lw or modo. simmetry mode, for exaple, even if they put something similar.but not the same.maya's working with the same old instance mirrored. it's only easier to build the setup.
the only exception is probably XSI, wich is very productive from what some friend say to me. even c4D team is working very well.

Now, fact is : even Lw is being rewritten. : is being rewritten under our eyes but it isn't noticeable yet. because Nt is making it gradually,under the hood,while keeping to sell us Lw. Lw is actually gradually shredding skin so that it will be different at the end of this process.

avid rewrote XSI from scratch, entirely.and sold softimage as well. it is a big company so they could do this. XSI was also one of the most pricey apps on the market in that period tho.
however :quite the same was made for other apps. recoded from scratch and if you notice it , they were very pricey at that time.
NT is a smaller compamy, and doesn't like to make users pay so much for their 3D app. things in the market are also changed so, its not possible to sell an app for too much money when an XSI is 500$, and aMaya 2000$. they choosed to do this differently, and hopefully we'll see their results more and more soon.

i am actually convinced that at Siggraph we'll have interesting features,for lw, even if i honestly think its a bit too early for things like edges and so on. but i could be plain wrong :)
and most important we'll surely know more about 64 bit version and will have good hints about Nt 8.x roadmap.
IMO, the process will end up witha great Lw 9.0 so we'll have to wait a bit to have a more modern Lw. but Nt is now using things like apple x tools, lilke Lux, added great people to their team : ex EI coders, Ikeda , and is working on SDK too.

at the end : if you're happy with apps like XSI, Maya or others rather than Lw, because they have those features now,use them. i currently am happy with Lw so far.but that's just me , of course. no problem at all. let's wait patiently for news of Siggraph, and be happy with what we have now.

Shade01
07-24-2005, 07:34 AM
Megalodon and T4D, please take your arguements to PM and stop it right now, please.

T4D
07-24-2005, 08:27 AM
I'm cool shade01, I see no need to a keep going
( tho thinking I did have the right of reply on that post with my quotes all over it ? PM me if i was wrong ) Won't touch that anymore OK :thumbsup:

I agree with everything you said Nemoid
I "Personally" would prefer waiting afew months for a great LW 8.5
then have a quick lw8.5 show for a siggraph and get a LW 9 in afew months time.

LW 8.5 needs to be something cool :thumbsup: and I hope it happens.

that's it :)

Sbowling
07-24-2005, 10:04 AM
I agree with you here...

Just expecting them to show the "worlds first animation made with 64bit 3D software" that they've been shouting here and there ... and then introduce LW64, with options to pre-order or something along those lines...


Speaking of smoke and mirrors, Maxon already has a 64 bit version of their animation program (cinema4d) available free to current users, so this would have to be the worlds second (or third or fourth, or 5th, etc...) animaton done in 64 bit windows.

T4D
07-24-2005, 10:12 AM
I honestly didn't know that C4D was 64bit !!:eek:
C4D marketing need to push it more.

LW and XSI told the world they had 64Bit power coming over and over again:bounce:

Yet by what you say C4D is really the first to let they users really uses it :) Cool :thumbsup:

Sbowling
07-24-2005, 10:23 AM
I honestly didn't know that C4D was 64bit !!:eek:
C4D marketing need to push it more.

LW and XSI told the world they had 64Bit power coming over and over again:bounce:

Yet by what you say C4D is really the first to let they users really uses it :) Cool :thumbsup:

Cinema 4d has had it for months and this thread just reminded me to register for the download. They also already have a working version for the new Mac/intel platform according to their site. Siggraph this year should be very interesting. Too bad I can't go.

Srek
07-24-2005, 11:09 AM
Speaking of smoke and mirrors, Maxon already has a 64 bit version of their animation program (cinema4d) available free to current users, so this would have to be the worlds second (or third or fourth, or 5th, etc...) animaton done in 64 bit windows.

Actualy NT had the first 64 Bit animation made with a mainstream 3D app. The main difference is that neither Softimage nor Maxon did show work made with Beta versions.
So i think the first animation made with a commercialy available 64 Bit 3D app was made by some unknown CINEMA user shortly after release ;)
Don't overestimate 64 bit though, while beeing nice to have, the lack of tools in 64 Bit Windows (Codecs, Quicktime etc.) usualy make it only usefull for single frame rendering for later compositing on a 32 bit system.
As for all the Siggraph speculations, i think all the main competitors are well aware on how much is going on currently and will act accordingly. Will be an interesting time for sure.
Cheers
Björn

Nemoid
07-24-2005, 01:43 PM
I'm cool shade01, I see no need to a keep going
( tho thinking I did have the right of reply on that post with my quotes all over it ? PM me if i was wrong ) Won't touch that anymore OK :thumbsup:

I agree with everything you said Nemoid
I "Personally" would prefer waiting afew months for a great LW 8.5
then have a quick lw8.5 show for a siggraph and get a LW 9 in afew months time.

LW 8.5 needs to be something cool :thumbsup: and I hope it happens.

that's it :)

sure ! but hey who knows. 8.5 could be cooler than we expect it to be. :)

p.s. OT BTW did u contact who you asked me for? no news from you on that...

vonbon
07-24-2005, 05:48 PM
I think the biggest mistake Newtek can make is to try and please everyone by adding features without thinking them through. If I were Newtek I would take the chance of losing customers in order to put the program together in the order it should be to make a solid core first. I’m no programmer but I have worked with a few good ones. When you have a guy (BossMan) whose main concern is getting the customer what they want “when” they want it, can lead to disaster for a programmer. I mean you get a guy coming into the lab rushing you to get this feature in the “update” not knowing how changing one thing can change many things in the program depending on how you enter it in. Yes, making money is mandatory but if you destroy the very thing that makes you money by giving it a bad reputation it’ll be that much harder to get the trust and respect back. You gotta spend money to make money and time is money.



I think they should take their time. Sure some of you will jump ship but when they come out with a program that’s solid and with groundbreaking new technology/plugins. People will comeback and new folks will come aboard. Newtek will make all the money back plus some. Its good to watch your competition so you can see where they make their mistakes and what areas can be improved on. Anybody can do anything first its about who does it best. Once Newtek gets everything in order they want have to worry about the competition because they will be spending their time trying to catch up while Newtek can continue creating new technology/plugins based on a solid foundation.



My $3.54 :arteest:

richcz3
07-24-2005, 06:24 PM
The grass will always be greener on the other side.
Yes, LW8 was not the "End all be all" upgrade. Considerig the shake-up/team changes at NewTek, I was reserved and concerned about my expectations for 8. After buying 8 and testing it I started looking elsewhere. I gave Maya and XSI a try and although they each had impressive features, I found those apps had their own quirks, limitations. Another deciding factor at the end of those evaluations was their cost. Point for point each cost more than owning lightwave.

To each his/her own. One program can not be all things to all people. Whats your objective with the program you use? Do you want to get in the movie biz? Do you want to make games? Well, your better off looking elsewhere.
However, If you want to work on your own productions or produce viz content for business, Lightwave is very capable and cost effective.

MinusMan
07-24-2005, 08:16 PM
Whats your objective with the program you use? Do you want to get in the movie biz? Do you want to make games? Well, your better off looking elsewhere.
However, If you want to work on your own productions or produce viz content for business, Lightwave is very capable and cost effective.


I'm not quite sure I understand your statement here. Isn't lightwave used for some top movies and games? (currently I'm addicted to Ridge Racer for the PSP made with lw)

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/projects.php

I try and keep up with the trade mags and read how lw is used on many productions. I just read in Digit and 3D World how it was used on the Gorillaz latest video. I also saw a job post for 13 lw artists here recently for a children's tv show.

Maybe you have insider info that shows otherwise but from what the studios are saying they use seems to defy what you posted here, or did I misunderstand?

telamon
07-24-2005, 08:58 PM
The question is simple. What do we expect from Siggraph? The answer is as simple as "an upgrade".

The main question underneath is which upgrade do we expect?

A 8.4 version based on bugfixes featuring a timid implementation of things like edges / NGons and/or subpixel displacement? No way. I cannot imagine that one of the most important moment for external communication will be overwhelmed by such a minimalistic answer.

A 8.5 release featuring all the minimal feature requests (those above).... Yeah why not... It would be cool that NT shows that they are filling the gap with other packages and ready for a strong competition for the next major pay release.



Remember dudes that the market has importantly changed since last year.
First of all, LW has lost its strong economical competitiveness. A new studio purchasing a soft would surely buy XSI. That is what I recommend to all companies putting a nail in the 3D World ATM.

Secondly, 2004-2005 was a year of aimed upgrading prices. Remember XSI's offer, then C4D, then LW, then Modo. If the next LW upgrade does not give evidence that the gap with other apps will soon be filled, upgrading to LW9 will be very questionable, regarding the very attractive offers made by the competitors. We are no more in a time where jumping to any other app costs $2000 plus the personnal investment towards learning something new.


edit: let us remember that Pixologic has paved the way for another approach of 3D. LW MUST be able to communicate and work seamlessly with such an app. I would not be surprised if Alias, for instance, reveals that they are developping a ZBrush-like plugin...

richcz3
07-24-2005, 09:01 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand your statement here. Isn't lightwave used for some top movies and games? (currently I'm addicted to Ridge Racer for the PSP made with lw) Hey don't leave out Doom 3 hi rez character modeling, UT2K3 modeling, Cro Teams original Serious Sam. Sure there are companies that use Lightwave.:thumbsup: Keep in mind multiple app pipelines are common in many productions. But being realistic, check the primary applications used for development and production. I don't want to give LW nay sayers too much to chew on, so I'll stop there.

RobertoOrtiz
07-24-2005, 09:14 PM
Can we keep the GLOOM AND DOOM/ SKY IS FALLING mentality until after SIGGRAPH.


-R

mav3rick
07-24-2005, 10:55 PM
agree but some people have hell lot of extra time to discuss this kinda topixx

Nu Visual Science
07-25-2005, 01:13 AM
I love these kind of topics really, It gives a little incite into a part of the LW scene that i guess NT have to deal with.
No one ever could please everybody all of the time but this is what is being asked of NT, I like LW but i come from the Amiga as a little child and still like that sort of layout and look, The tools available seem great to me but i am no expert yet.

It seems that these topics are building up now in readiness of spouting "I told you so" after Sillygraph and they could well be right, I dont know but i'm sure some do.

It's actually quite strange from the outside to listen to doubters (Who dont have and dont claim to have any info on what is coming) compared to the optomists (Who hint they have info but never actually claim to have any) , Even though i love LW and cant really even be bothered with any other packages at the moment it worries me, It kinda comes across like the optomists will say anything to enforce LWs future advancments but the ones who are now using other apps (Normally alongside LW) are actually showing real concerns about there particular pipeline, Some of the doubters are a little rampant and can start the odd flame war hear and there but i'm pretty certain that happens everywhere and not just LW forums.

The point i'm spending too much time trying to make is that when reading all these posts it is all very circular and i cant actually see a slide one way or the other
On one hand the doubters will tell you that LW is behind the times and cant do this cant do that (The problem here is that LW is used all the time in high profile films games TV and print)
The optomists will tell you all is well and the new team will develop a great package (The problem with this is it hasn't been long and we have no proof of what they are going to do)
But neither side can actually say i told ya so quite yet and maybe not after Sillygraph either.

I think the problem we have here is that whatever comes at Sillygraph wont be enough for the doubters and they will move on, The problem here is that they may never come back to NT because they feel let down and have lost trust.

My guess for new features anouncements at Sillygraph would be
1 Opened SDK
2 New render engine (The EI boys are at NT now)

ANGEL_OF_WAR
07-25-2005, 01:54 AM
The question is simple. What do we expect from Siggraph? The answer is as simple as "an upgrade".

The main question underneath is which upgrade do we expect?

A 8.4 version based on bugfixes featuring a timid implementation of things like edges / NGons and/or subpixel displacement? No way. I cannot imagine that one of the most important moment for external communication will be overwhelmed by such a minimalistic answer.

A 8.5 release featuring all the minimal feature requests (those above).... Yeah why not... It would be cool that NT shows that they are filling the gap with other packages and ready for a strong competition for the next major pay release.



Remember dudes that the market has importantly changed since last year.
First of all, LW has lost its strong economical competitiveness. A new studio purchasing a soft would surely buy XSI. That is what I recommend to all companies putting a nail in the 3D World ATM.

Secondly, 2004-2005 was a year of aimed upgrading prices. Remember XSI's offer, then C4D, then LW, then Modo. If the next LW upgrade does not give evidence that the gap with other apps will soon be filled, upgrading to LW9 will be very questionable, regarding the very attractive offers made by the competitors. We are no more in a time where jumping to any other app costs $2000 plus the personnal investment towards learning something new.


edit: let us remember that Pixologic has paved the way for another approach of 3D. LW MUST be able to communicate and work seamlessly with such an app. I would not be surprised if Alias, for instance, reveals that they are developping a ZBrush-like plugin...

Well said. I've been looking at other apps lately, especially Cinema. The problem is, I'm just too invested in Lightwave. I don't have a production company backing me. After buying LW 6.5, then 7.0, then 8.0 after hearing they had done great things with Cloth FX which is still more or less unusable, I'm a lot more cautious of Lightwave's future. In fact, what I need LW to do, real dynamics, which other apps can already do but I can't afford another whole app, is causing me to suspend any further 3D work until it can perform that way. I'm going to consentrate on writing my other project at the moment. I'll wait until LW decides to do something real with their dynamics.

It's a little strange to me, that LW has created this huge push for people to upgrade or get into LW at an affordable price, partnering with E-on and their Vue 5 product, etc, but they haven't said one thing about where they're going.

What do I wish LW would show at Siggraph? Well for starters, I'd like them to **show up**. I've written to tech support 2 times this month and haven't heard a thing back. I'm beginning to think Newtek is on autopilot for the summer.

I'd like to see dynamics implemented and done well. I'd pay for a standalone module or plugin, I don't care. I need it to work, no comprimise.

I have extremely high hopes for Lightwave's Siggraph showing. I also have extremely low expectations. I hope something big happens. 64 bit processing is cool, but it'll just mean dynamics will suck twice as fast as they do now.

Nu Visual Science
07-25-2005, 02:52 AM
Newtek Europe are really quick with replies here, I guess they could all be in the mad hype rush before next week though i suppose ?

Nemoid
07-25-2005, 08:33 AM
The question is simple. What do we expect from Siggraph? The answer is as simple as "an upgrade".

The main question underneath is which upgrade do we expect?

A 8.4 version based on bugfixes featuring a timid implementation of things like edges / NGons and/or subpixel displacement? No way. I cannot imagine that one of the most important moment for external communication will be overwhelmed by such a minimalistic answer.

A 8.5 release featuring all the minimal feature requests (those above).... Yeah why not... It would be cool that NT shows that they are filling the gap with other packages and ready for a strong competition for the next major pay release.



Remember dudes that the market has importantly changed since last year.
First of all, LW has lost its strong economical competitiveness. A new studio purchasing a soft would surely buy XSI. That is what I recommend to all companies putting a nail in the 3D World ATM.

Secondly, 2004-2005 was a year of aimed upgrading prices. Remember XSI's offer, then C4D, then LW, then Modo. If the next LW upgrade does not give evidence that the gap with other apps will soon be filled, upgrading to LW9 will be very questionable, regarding the very attractive offers made by the competitors. We are no more in a time where jumping to any other app costs $2000 plus the personnal investment towards learning something new.


edit: let us remember that Pixologic has paved the way for another approach of 3D. LW MUST be able to communicate and work seamlessly with such an app. I would not be surprised if Alias, for instance, reveals that they are developping a ZBrush-like plugin...

a new studio would probably buy XSI ? well, probably yes, because its cheap. but there are other things to consider, like render ease of use and unlimited nodes possibility , as well as workflow, ease of modelling and so on. also, XSI is $500, but a studio should be better vbased on at least the 2000 $ version while buying one or two 500$ versions as a basis.
it also depends by the experience of the studio's founders. if i had to build up a studio from sctatch i'd at least start Lw. then, in the current situation and depending how expert Lw users i will have in my studio, i'd go XSI or maya for heavy - and i say heavy - animation purposes. i'd also add a Zbrush seat indeed. that's all. there are tons of ways to buiild up a pipeline with Lw and those apps, taking the best from every world.

with more expert users you could go totally Lw, and arrive for sure at an high quality level in production, considering people in the studio will do several things at a time : modelling, texturing atc.

then as the studio grows up, u'll probably use another pipeline structure with more specialized artists, one for every task,and here a software like XSI or Maya would probably fit better.due to their structure. but at that time you will have coders, TD's , Mray experts,and other kinda technicians wich will help you to enhance your workflow with the above apps. because this is the way you get the most from them.especially Maya. this is my opinion at least.
with a Lw pipeline however you will arrive at least at a medium-good level into a 5-6 people in studio environment.

i agree totally on the Zbrush thing. we currently have a strange workflow, due to the fact we don't have subpixel displacement built in tha app. we have two cool plugs to put maps in the models however, and we have a good plugin called Zwave wich i advice to all Lw users using ZB. so a Lw-ZB pipeline is possible now even if not totally seamlessly.

at_626
07-25-2005, 09:50 AM
a new studio would probably buy XSI ? well, probably yes, because its cheap. but there are other things to consider, like render ease of use and unlimited nodes possibility , as well as workflow, ease of modelling and so on. also, XSI is $500, but a studio should be better vbased on at least the 2000 $ version while buying one or two 500$ versions as a basis.
it also depends by the experience of the studio's founders. if i had to build up a studio from sctatch i'd at least start Lw. then, in the current situation and depending how expert Lw users i will have in my studio, i'd go XSI or maya for heavy - and i say heavy - animation purposes. i'd also add a Zbrush seat indeed. that's all. there are tons of ways to buiild up a pipeline with Lw and those apps, taking the best from every world.

with more expert users you could go totally Lw, and arrive for sure at an high quality level in production, considering people in the studio will do several things at a time : modelling, texturing atc.

then as the studio grows up, u'll probably use another pipeline structure with more specialized artists, one for every task,and here a software like XSI or Maya would probably fit better.due to their structure. but at that time you will have coders, TD's , Mray experts,and other kinda technicians wich will help you to enhance your workflow with the above apps. because this is the way you get the most from them.especially Maya. this is my opinion at least.
with a Lw pipeline however you will arrive at least at a medium-good level into a 5-6 people in studio environment.

i agree totally on the Zbrush thing. we currently have a strange workflow, due to the fact we don't have subpixel displacement built in tha app. we have two cool plugs to put maps in the models however, and we have a good plugin called Zwave wich i advice to all Lw users using ZB. so a Lw-ZB pipeline is possible now even if not totally seamlessly.


+ you pay maintenance fee for XSI, if you need support and updates(not upgrade!) :eek: , which i dont think is cheap for small studio or individual.:twisted:

T4D
07-25-2005, 10:22 AM
+ you pay maintenance fee for XSI, if you need support and updates(not upgrade!) :eek: , which i dont think is cheap for small studio or individual.:twisted:

in Australia Avid must have me under a special "Your the best T4D" type agreement
because i own 2 licences and both i got a better deal then that going..

readiong the website give full details of the XSI licence

Ask yourself

1/ how many FREE extremely AMAZING !! updates got over the last few years ?

2/ how many emails have you sent to your software developer about the bugs, feature request / help & or questions AND they got back to you about it within afew days and gave REAL details on the area you asked about ??

3/ how many features do you work with now that you didn't have 12 months ago

I can answer
1/ 1 and WOW !!
2/ 2 and very helpful and nice to get a email from a real dude instead of a marketing guy
3/ HEAPS AND HEAPS i could write pages on that one.

and Please $$$ wise sit down and add it up :p

resbot
07-25-2005, 02:06 PM
I recently purchased the new LWCAD tools and noticed that in the help section on the LWCAD website, the author mentions that the next version of Lightwave will have proper NURBs curves in it. I am interested in how NT will integrate them with modeler, I hope they will be similar to spline-cage modeling without the need for constantly patching the model to see the actual geometry. Maybe there will be a glimpse of this at siggraph?

Zarathustra
07-25-2005, 02:37 PM
Modeling and rendering are it's strengths and mostly how it's used in multi-app pipelines, it seems. Plus, even the amateur is beginning to be multi-app in 3D (Poser, View, Zbrush, etc) so I think LW has to make it easier to transport data to and from these apps.

C4D seems to support a new object format every week whereas there's a new posting somewhere online each week about not being able to handle obj or other object formats in LW properly. C4D is even loading LW scenes, right?
Support all those CAD and tech formats (and that protein object format which I should know but I'm blanking on)
Make it easier to load Maya data since a lot of Maya users render in LW.
Definitely support ZBrush better (which isn't much to ask considering the existing support has come from the community, not NT).
More UI customization will have to come (too soon for 8.x, but maybe for 9) so users from other apps can make LW more like whatever they're used to, not to mention the rest of us being able to do simple things like have object properties and light properties open simultaneously (talk about "innovation").

I think you'll be seeing very soon if not already that the apps gaining ground are the ones that play nice with others.

richcz3
07-25-2005, 03:47 PM
Nemoid - Cost effect is a big deal and that ramp up you describe for a production studio is about the most reasonable/practical way to go. Plugins like Zwave can decrease the time spent between apps.

Zarathustra - I agree, I think knowing more than one application is more a necessity than a luxury. Now more than ever, it's hard to find one killer app that does everything right or reasonable amount of time. I am currently using LW, Vue, ZBrush on a regular basis with Poser in the wings for the odd job. If NT can get LW modeling and rendering to the next level, it will grow its niche while building up its other features.

Still playing nice can't be understated. Looking forward, Vue will offer Inferno which will allow you to control Vue through the LW interface. Now imagine if we could access ZBrush feature toolsets through LW's modeler interface. Less Import Export As-Edit-Save-Export As-Import-Test. If an application wants to win its place in a production pipeline, it may not only have to play nice, but offer core integration between other packages. Something I'm sure the revamped SDK will answer.

Exper
07-25-2005, 03:48 PM
Funny in seeing how users are battling in this Thread, really funny.

I'm pretty sure NT is aware that Siggraph 2005 is a turning point and they have to prove they're working on something we can rely.

I'll personal base my next decision (upgrade or not, stay or leave) on this one too, and I peronally know other people who feel the same.

No more begging, mumbling or whining: just acting!

RobertoOrtiz
07-25-2005, 04:15 PM
Guys please be fair.
As a software developer I am quite awarw how difficult is to update code, specially when I did not create it.

The announcement for the heads of the new development team were presented only a few months ago. I mean COME ON.

To expect miracles in only a few months is unrealistic and frankly unfair.

-R

mav3rick
07-25-2005, 04:23 PM
never say never... u dont know what NT team are capable to do! we are gonna have xciting summer i think!

Zarathustra
07-25-2005, 04:40 PM
What miracles? I'm not sure exactly what you're defining as "miracles" Roberto.

If you want realistic, I'd say you won't have much that's concrete. Maybe they'll release a modest update, but for the convention they may just show a bunch of sneak peeks at stuff that's coming in order to get attention. You have to have some kind of wow-factor for the crowds.
I think most, if not all of the wow will be stuff that they outline as on the future roadmap. If delivering everything that's needed immediately would be a miracle (and I agree it would) then just having some seak peeks and some idea of the future direction and such might placate some of the disgruntled users. Then the arguments would just be over when's something coming rather then if it will ever come.

funfun
07-25-2005, 04:50 PM
I'm pretty sure NT is aware that Siggraph 2005 is a turning point and they have to prove they're working on something we can rely.

I'll personal base my next decision (upgrade or not, stay or leave) on this one too, and I peronally know other people who feel the same.


me2, After lux release an announcement next week, and the next LW update by NT,
We will make a decision later this year, even not leaving LW, we will try other 3D app. Except LW, I presonally prefer the product from LUX guy as I like the LW-like style, and I dont have to do animation, so I only need the modelling and rendering module. However,
I really hope NT show as a stable and incredible update at Siggrpah, honestly.

richcz3
07-25-2005, 06:01 PM
I am looking (hoping) that 8.5 is a meaningful step in anticipation of bolder steps taken in 9. I would prefer not to see 8.5 released for some time to come. Get it done right and make a profound statement with it. Good things come to those who wait. Don't rush it.

Siggraph 2005
64BIT Lightwave center stage. Dual Core operation/benchmarking with Lightwave. NewTek software Alliances/Partnerships. Introduce the new team at SIGGRAPH. Some note on SDK advances or targets for developers. Show the key elements they are working on for 8.5.

Nu Visual Science
07-25-2005, 07:35 PM
If the guys at NT are going to need a lot of time to get used to the code how have they got a 64 bit version together ?

Surely 64 bit needs complete core changes to get it working (Well it does according to EI anyway)
If this is the case then the 64 bit version is a core rewrite right ?

I think an announcmemnt of Inspire based on the new devs code base will be at Sillygraph, And the combination of this code and the 64 bit code will be the future of our beloved.

I'm just surprised by people saying it will take a while for the coders to get upto speed with the code that was left from the split, WHY it is there job after all, I'm sure the wages at NT are better than i get (I know this for a fact actually) so why wouldn't Granger and others be able to just step in and go ?

Does anybody actually know if the oriuginal code was actually coded that badly that it is hard to read ?
If that is the case then how did MODO come about so quickly ?

I think there is a lot of speculation (By me too) here even by those who THINK they are in the know, If you dont know what the code looks like why would you start talking of miracles and such ?
I am only new to coding but if the coder has done his job properly then there shouldn't be a single problem really, That is what comments are for.
If however the coder didn't do his job properly and that is the delay to any updates it would point a finger at Lux that says dont trust these guys only they can code there code (Not what investers want to here)


I think the next few weeks are going to be very funny and exciting, The world isn't going to change and neither is your chosen package whatever that is, They may add in a couple of things here and there but they aren't going to change the world (How can they charge you for updates if things are perfect)

Srek
07-25-2005, 07:46 PM
If the guys at NT are going to need a lot of time to get used to the code how have they got a 64 bit version together ?

Surely 64 bit needs complete core changes to get it working (Well it does according to EI anyway)
If this is the case then the 64 bit version is a core rewrite right ?

Nope, the change from 32 to 64 bit can be anything between a complete rewrite and simply the use of a different compiler. This only depends on how good the programmers have done their job of sticking to maintainable code and how good/productionworthy the 64 bit compiler is.
Cheers
Björn

Nu Visual Science
07-25-2005, 08:00 PM
* New OpenGL Hardware shader option using the hardware renderer in OpenGL video cards to display many of the render functions in real-time. Lights, light falloffs, blending images on surfaces, per-pixel lighting will all be available in real-time, with an option to turn this feature on and off.

* New Parts-to-Surfaces tool allows for easier integration of 3D objects created in other applications.

* New Multi Shift allows the user to do multiple shifts in a single edit with a history profile that can be saved and applied to other meshes."

* Dynamics now launch a control window that allows you to switch to other applications while calculating dynamics in LightWave.

* Particle dynamics have been improved for accuracy, including interaction with collision planes. A new algorithm also allows large dynamic scenes to load up to 10x faster.

* 104 new configurable keyboard shortcut options.


Well thats the end of all these threads then i spose

vision1
07-25-2005, 08:01 PM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletters/v2-n6/index.html

richcz3
07-25-2005, 08:12 PM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletters/v2-n6/index.html
Rich goes to the corner and :cry:

TRick
07-25-2005, 08:43 PM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletters/v2-n6/index.html

This definitely shows that they are working on something bigger and they are surely not wasting too much time on patchwork :bounce:

"...as well as the future LightWave 3D!"

Nu Visual Science
07-25-2005, 08:47 PM
Look further down the newsletter

HINT* Something about the future Lightwave 3D :) :) :)

monovich
07-25-2005, 09:08 PM
ummm.... cool... I guess.

at_626
07-26-2005, 12:04 AM
in Australia Avid must have me under a special "Your the best T4D" type agreement
because i own 2 licences and both i got a better deal then that going..

readiong the website give full details of the XSI licence

Ask yourself

1/ how many FREE extremely AMAZING !! updates got over the last few years ?

2/ how many emails have you sent to your software developer about the bugs, feature request / help & or questions AND they got back to you about it within afew days and gave REAL details on the area you asked about ??

3/ how many features do you work with now that you didn't have 12 months ago

I can answer
1/ 1 and WOW !!
2/ 2 and very helpful and nice to get a email from a real dude instead of a marketing guy
3/ HEAPS AND HEAPS i could write pages on that one.

and Please $$$ wise sit down and add it up :p



mmm... well, I take your point then!:) but i did not "totally made up !! :surprised" mate! i do think xsi is a great app and planning to buy one:love:, even paying extra fee for maintenance - i will, but reckon maintenance fee is expensive if only have one copy... just think SI needs to adjust the maintenance fee that all. :shrug:

Oops... forgot here is LW territory.:D

T4D
07-26-2005, 03:04 AM
You don't have to pay the maintenance fee mate :thumbsup:
( you get 12 months when you first buy )
but they are many people in the XSI forums using XSi 2 or 3 etc and even softimage |3D this show Avid are fine with people NOT updating the software,
it's just like Lightwave users ask if this method works under LW 7.5 newtek don't have a problem with it

sure you'll have to pay more if you slip out of maintance when a update comes out, But that is life with any software now adays, it is different to the way Newtek works, but it is basicly the same .. sort of :).

so they is a maintenance but it like the 3D max deal if you pay you get everything as soon as it happens if not you wait and save for it.


No Problem at_626 :thumbsup:
your right this is LW forum ( you should be able to say stuff like that )
but they are many of us out they who uses the darkside :twisted:

T4D
07-26-2005, 03:06 AM
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletters/v2-n6/index.html

well I guess all of us negative Darkwavers have to shut up now !!:eek:
Newtek sure showed us with that Feature list :thumbsup:

uncommongrafx
07-26-2005, 03:13 AM
Chuckle,
Thomas, that

Megalodon
07-26-2005, 03:59 AM
well I guess all of us negative Darkwavers have to shut up now !!:eek:

That'll be the day! :)

Megalodon

fez
07-26-2005, 04:51 AM
I think it was an unfortunate marketing decision on Newtek's part to post such a relatively paltry feature list before the end of the Modo deal. That 8.5 list might clinch it for many Lightwavers considering the Modo.

I have a feeling this list reflects only a fraction of the coolness Newtek could have hyped...but they blew it IMO. If the new Newtek team has any aces up their sleeves, they should show em.

But hey, how about that G2/Fprime integration? That'll heal what ails ya.

T4D
07-26-2005, 05:11 AM
Yeah I did find it odd too, fez
why release such a small press release before siggraph and let everyone think
a/ this sucks
b/ at Siggraph NewTek are going to show even more cool stuff for LW 8.5 and LW 9.0

why post this feature list at all, when they are bigger things coming in afew days ?

I'm thinking the others will have cooler stuff then NT's listed
so it makes the press release look Odd to me :shrug:

IF it's a poker game, I have no idea why you would tip your hand like this ??:shrug:
the only thing is, if they have something REALLY BIG That would be cool.
but when the pressure is on to deliver to users ( remember LW8 ) it's not a good idea to show anything unless, it's fully working and your waiting for the ink to dry on the manuals ...

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 05:21 AM
There will be happy people. There are already people happy so far, just like they swore they'd be.

9 will have to be the showstopper. All the 8.x updates are a combo of getting 8 straight and showing snippets of what's coming down the line.
I don't think it's worth it to get all giddy or pissed off.

Nu Visual Science
07-26-2005, 05:21 AM
Maybe 8.5 isn't the story of Sillygraph so they wanted to get it out of the way first ?

BabeBro
07-26-2005, 05:39 AM
You don't have to pay the maintenance fee mate :thumbsup:
( you get 12 months when you first buy )
but they are many people in the XSI forums using XSi 2 or 3 etc and even softimage |3D this show Avid are fine with people NOT updating the software,


12 months? you get 90 Days free support when you first purchase(Ess or Adv) I just purchased maint for Essentials and it covers all updates, software patches( i.e QFE's) and upgrades released within the year not to forget tech support.

richcz3
07-26-2005, 06:44 AM
There will be happy people. There are already people happy so far, just like they swore they'd be.

9 will have to be the showstopper. All the 8.x updates are a combo of getting 8 straight and showing snippets of what's coming down the line.
I don't think it's worth it to get all giddy or pissed off.

Agreed!
Umm Zara...are you feeling alright?

Nemoid
07-26-2005, 09:14 AM
Yeah I did find it odd too, fez
why release such a small press release before siggraph and let everyone think
a/ this sucks
b/ at Siggraph NewTek are going to show even more cool stuff for LW 8.5 and LW 9.0

why post this feature list at all, when they are bigger things coming in afew days ?

I'm thinking the others will have cooler stuff then NT's listed
so it makes the press release look Odd to me :shrug:

IF it's a poker game, I have no idea why you would tip your hand like this ??:shrug:
the only thing is, if they have something REALLY BIG That would be cool.
but when the pressure is on to deliver to users ( remember LW8 ) it's not a good idea to show anything unless, it's fully working and your waiting for the ink to dry on the manuals ...

well i wouldn't enter too much in Newtek marketing decisions.

a similar move seems to me quite like the Lux technical show about their rendering. a huge time has passed before its release.andwe're not at that point, now.
maybe Nt will do the same with a Lw 9.0 revolution started some time ago. they also might have something to show.This would be great.

So far, the 8.5 release is free, and can seem small, but there are things about open GL wich were not possible with the old code IMO. i know the feature list is small, and that users expectations were for more strong enhancements, even because the market is so hard these times that to amaze Lw users in the current situation, surely more is needed.

But i'd suspend judgement till we know real things from Siggraph and not speculations.

if they will not make good announcements and a good show making a good booth reassuring usa bout the Lw future, then it will be different.

What i can say is :i personally don't think Nt will not face the market with a great level of competitiveness.

they're not stupid. and they surely have a roadmap in developing Lw.
they know exactly what the market is and what other apps offer currently to the user. they also know very well what users want. in old times they did'nt know this that good, because feture request channels were not open like now. same for bugfixes. currently many things

have changed from past years in Lw development and i am pleased from the work done so far; actually the current situation , depends more from undone work in the past from 6.5 to 7.5 rather than what's being done since 8.0 appearence.

Nt also have great competitors like Lux, Maxon and Avid. so , u see,they will have to face this competition to stay alive, and since they lately hired some new developers what i think is

they'll stay up, take the challenge and live forever.

T4D
07-26-2005, 09:51 AM
yeah agree

in some ways it's good what Newtek have done
they have pretty much stated THIS is what your getting in LW 8.5 ( honest & may be more features then the ones listed, IMO I think they should be )

and at siggraph NT marketing can go hard pushing LW 9 Beta features and Future direction.

I hope they don't market it like they did the LW 8 ( it'll be here soon... ) that was a bad mov,e But thinking the development team are up to speed & wouldn't want that to happen again as well.

it will be interesting, what NT & everyone else pulls out of the bag :) VERY Interesting :D

Nemoid
07-26-2005, 10:02 AM
found this interesting statement from Chuck :


The time frames are certainly different than you were implying, but the fact is that the new LightWave team has accomplished a huge amount under the hood at this point. I'm surprised that some elements of the architectural changes have gone without notice so far. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of LightWave users will be pleased with what we have to talk about at SIGGRAPH regarding developments they can expect to see.


well, to me that means that we currently, under the hood have things wich are unnoticeable as features so far, but that will allow great enhancements to the curent Lw structure and toolset. will this be done into a gradual way, or has this be done into a parallel pipeline for a 9.0 release, we dunno. i rather believe into a gradual roadmap. but what i mean is :

there's more that we can see now in the Lw development. :)

and maybe at Siggraph we'll know more about this.

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 01:42 PM
I feel fine.

My theory has been that NT is gradually rewriting LW a section at a time rather then disappearing entirely for an extended period of time and then re-emerging with the new baby. This way is more difficult and probably takes longer, but it allows them to stay visible and hold more users than if they disappeared for a year or so.
That comment of Chuck's sounds like my theory is solid.

This also explains how so much time can go by with seemingly nothing much to show as well as things that never had trouble before suddenly breaking in new updates. It all points to rebuilding sections while still trying to make them communicate properly with the other sections they haven't updated yet plus perhaps speaking to the newer sections in a different way.

What I don't understand is why they just don't say that they're doing this. I think a lot of disgruntled users would get off their back a bit. This could also be why the SDK isn't open. They may wish to have the whole thing rebuilt and then deal with the SDK properly. IT might be an easy thing at that point rather then trying to make it happen now, which would have to be tweaked each time a new section was rebuilt.
If you buy into my SDK extension of my rebuild theory, then you're probably looking at that rumor from a week or so ago that Worley will have a hack to make FP speak with G2. If it will be that long, then Worley would take matters into his own hands.

Edit: Lookey here - it's official. Worley will have FP2 which will work with G2. That says to me the SDK won't be open properly for awhile so here's a bypass.
I'm not sounding so crazy now, am I?

Sequent
07-26-2005, 02:41 PM
This gave me an interesting thought... if the original coders were so very bad... then where does that leave Modo? Unless they've cleaned up their sloppy coding since then. :p


I am only new to coding but if the coder has done his job properly then there shouldn't be a single problem really, That is what comments are for.
If however the coder didn't do his job properly and that is the delay to any updates it would point a finger at Lux that says dont trust these guys only they can code there code (Not what investers want to here)


I think the next few weeks are going to be very funny and exciting, The world isn't going to change and neither is your chosen package whatever that is, They may add in a couple of things here and there but they aren't going to change the world (How can they charge you for updates if things are perfect)

Sequent
07-26-2005, 02:43 PM
I noticed that too, but didn't know if I was reading too much into it... "future Lightwave 3D" no future of...

Look further down the newsletter

HINT* Something about the future Lightwave 3D :) :) :)

Chuck Baker
07-26-2005, 02:47 PM
...


What I don't understand is why they just don't say that they're doing this. I think a lot of disgruntled users would get off their back a bit.

Actually we've said that we were taking this approach on pretty much every forum and mailing list at some point. We began discussing it prior to the release of 8.0. Some folks seem ok with it and understand that this is a viable approach, others insist that we really have to go dark for at least two years and maybe more in order to be able to accomplish a rewrite. As we've pointed out in previous discussions of this issue, the Video team has used this development model for quite some time, and the new LightWave team elected to go to this model as well.

In sum, you are drawing a correct set of conclusions pretty much across the board. You might bear in mind though when considering what is going on in third party efforts that we have been releasing SDK changes in the 8.x series of updates. :)

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 03:01 PM
Maybe you can point us to some of those past announcements, Chuck.
You know, sometimes a comment seems clear when you know the big picture but when you don't, the comment means nothing. That could be why it seems to you that you've been saying all this for awhile.
Maybe, in my case, it's because I'm not a part of the two NT supported forums so I haven't seen these comments.:hmm:


As far as SDK, well, too little and too long before what needs to be done will be done, I think. That's why Worley decided to just find his own way.

telamon
07-26-2005, 03:06 PM
I feel fine.
What I don't understand is why they just don't say that they're doing this. I think a lot of disgruntled users would get off their back a bit.

For me the answer is simple. If they say this a lot of users will save the money for the release [9] and may spend it a bit afterwards or buy [10] if [9] has not entirely filled the gap.......

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 03:14 PM
That thought crossed my mind, too. Not many would have bought 8.
Here's the roadmap I theorized:
http://www.splinecage.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5299#post5299

It puts all the eggs in the [9] basket.

Nemoid
07-26-2005, 03:36 PM
having read alot of posts from Chuck here and in other forums, i can confirm his words. they clearly said here, on SQ and in Nt forums they are going for a step by step gradual rewrite under the hood of lw core. i think this choice depends from the fact Nt can't have separate teams,one for lw traditional structure series, and one for lw 8.x towards 9.0 cycle. also this would be a bit unrealistic, since it would arrive a point where traditional one would be substituted by the modern version. a traditional structure at the end would rather become a Inspire package (hey don't forget about this one Nt announced time ago) while modern one would be the new real Lightwave 3D. :)

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 03:46 PM
I prefer exact words, like the DFX+ value posts.

Well this all goes back to what I said earlier, no point is getting giddy or pissed with any 8.x release. They're merely by-products of the [9] rebuild project.
Save all emotion for [9].

Chuck Baker
07-26-2005, 04:26 PM
Maybe you can point us to some of those past announcements, Chuck.

The most recent debate on the concept here on CGTalk was about two months ago in the thread titled "What can we expect from LightWave 9", where I had this to say:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2342066&postcount=42

Cruising up and down that thread it is apparent that a number of others were aware of our previous posts on the matter. Anyone with time to search can find those - I have project work to do for our SIGGRAPH efforts.

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 05:08 PM
The stuff you want to find, you can, easily, even though you're busy. Priceless.

Anyway, with all this being common knowledge, remind me again why people are cheering or slamming this 8.5 release? What's the point of doing either?

Just hold your water.

Chuck Baker
07-26-2005, 05:36 PM
The stuff you want to find, you can, easily, even though you're busy.

Just as you could have done yourself, rather than implying that if I or someone else wasn't willing to bring you the proof on a silver platter, then you simply wouldn't believe it had actually been said.

monovich
07-26-2005, 05:54 PM
don't let anybody get your guile up, Chuck!

Not everybody here has a bone to pick, and a lot of us are waiting paitently and excitedly for the fruit of your and the LW team's efforts. If you tended to all of the snippy posts on this board, you'd never have time for anything else.

cheers.

-SF

Zarathustra
07-26-2005, 05:55 PM
Silver platter? What's that all about?

I just like to deal with facts. That's the nice thing about public forums - a perpetual archive of what's said. I don't understand what's wrong with wanting to see specific facts like quotes and dates.

Nice of you too provide one link, though. My search abilities are limited on forums I'm not a part of so if you have something earlier, let me know.
Was there something that outlined this before 8 was ever released? Like when the first [8] pre-order was offered?

Shade01
07-26-2005, 06:26 PM
If this devolves any further into an arguement I will close this thread straight away.

Chewey
07-26-2005, 11:19 PM
[QUOTE=Zarathustra]Silver platter? What's that all about?

...
QUOTE]

Kinda like the feedbag you're used to to but fancier...

Megalodon
07-27-2005, 12:19 AM
Silver platter? What's that all about?

I just like to deal with facts. That's the nice thing about public forums - a perpetual archive of what's said. I don't understand what's wrong with wanting to see specific facts like quotes and dates.

Nice of you too provide one link, though. My search abilities are limited on forums I'm not a part of so if you have something earlier, let me know.
Was there something that outlined this before 8 was ever released? Like when the first [8] pre-order was offered?

Why do you feel the need to know EVERY post that Chuck made regarding this issue? Chuck already gave you one link. Now if you REALLY need to know how many others there are, go find them yourself. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see specific facts, but to expect someone to lead you directly to every single post is a tad ludicrous.

The impression I received from all previous posts was that Newtek was rewriting the core step by step - not all at once. If you need further clarification, it would be a good exercise to seek them out on your own.

Megalodon

Shade01
07-27-2005, 12:55 AM
Alright people, thats it.