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darktding
07-16-2005, 03:40 PM
Im just wondering what many programmers here prefer in their fav text editor options..
a) Font Type
b) Font Size
c) Text Color/Background Color
Any other preferences would be great too know too...

mummey
07-17-2005, 06:57 PM
I use vi.

Let the editor war begin! :twisted:

darktding
07-18-2005, 04:24 AM
hey mummey, im trying to learn emacs, heard its a really powerfull text editor and MORE. Vi is nice too, I got to agree...

Lique
07-18-2005, 06:02 AM
Is there a way to change a value (number) and replace them as define random value, eg:
value of 1 change to between 0 to 2 ... using those text editor?

poe
07-18-2005, 08:33 AM
vi, emacs? honestly, what is wrong with you people ;P

i use vs.net 2003 main and scite for instant-on editing requirement.

both use Bitstream Vera Sans Mono at 8/9pt

ace4016
07-19-2005, 03:55 AM
hehe, unix users. What I like in my text editors for programming is colored text, spacing, and a list of arguments and properties of a class object or function when I put the corresponding mark after the name of the object or function.

playmesumch00ns
07-19-2005, 08:37 AM
I use nedit for most things. It's the best all-round editor I've used. The syntax-highlighting is simple, but it's easy to add new patterns yourself. The best thing about it is the macro language, which is easy to use and is capable of quite complex operations.

I've found emacs and vi to be quite powerful, but just to much of a pain in the arse to use every day.

rendermaniac
07-19-2005, 10:14 AM
I always find myself coming back to nedit.

Simon

killah
07-19-2005, 02:43 PM
In GNU&Linux OS you could find Kate editor (if you work in KDE environments) which is very useful too. Emacs is hard to use the first time but It's very powerful.
This goes to ace4016, these editors can also display colored text, they have spacing functions and probably you can configure them to show the properties and arguments of a class as MS Visual Studio does and well, if you want them to do more things you can program it because these editors are open source :)

Bye

ace4016
07-19-2005, 06:58 PM
I've never been on Linux/unix before, open source is foreign to me:D . Sooner or later I believe my major will require me to work on a unix/linux OS so I'm sure I'll find out how VI/Emacs and maybe Kate are; if not, I'll probably install the OS just because of curiosity.

gga
07-25-2005, 12:34 PM
Are you asking what editor to learn? If so, learn emacs. Learning any other editor is really a waste of time, as none come even close to even 1/3 of what emacs can do. Trust me about this. You'll be thanking me years down the line.
Also, search the web for .emacs files. You'll learn more about configuring emacs that way that anyone can teach you, as emacs gui by default is pretty simple.

If you are trying to write an editor to compete with emacs, good luck...
Here's the main hilites of emacs that most (all) editors cannot even touch:
- Fast. Not even the best typist should be able to overrun the speed of the editor.
- Rock solid. Emacs plain and simply does not crash. I don't care what you do to it. It just NEVER goes down. It has been tested for over 20+ years now. You will never loose work because of a bug in the editor.
- Multiplatform: windows, linux, mac and about 20 other OSes in the case of emacs.
- Ability to run command-line and thru a network.
- Multiplatform ascii preferences: easily copy preferences from one OS to another or from one user to another, allowing to extract only what you need.
- Multi-language support: C/C++, Java, Ruby, PHP, Python, Perl, MEL, Makefile, Shell scripting, Renderman, HTML, etc. I'll give you a prize if you find a language that emacs does not support.
- Multiple buffer support. Ability to load multiple files in different languages and keep them in memory.
- Multiple view support. Ability to show multiple buffers on the same screen easily with split windows, without having to rearrange windows.
- Ability to work in server mode, so only one instance of the editor is kept. Opening new files from any shell window opens the file in the already opened editor.
- Syntax hiliting in all languages.
- Regular expression searches/replacements.
- Interactive searches/replacements, showing the document as it is being changed.
- Scripting language with byte compiler.
- Comment/Uncomment regions of text on hotkey, in all languages.
- Indentation of regions under a hotkey, in all languages.
- Quote regions of text on hotkey, under all languages.
- Backslashify regions of text on hotkey.
- Font/Color preferences, on a per language support.
- Macro support.
- File/Directory speedbar.
- Class/function browser/index, in all languages.
- Etags support.
- Ability to diff files.
- Ability to add new keywords to the syntax hiliting of a language.
- Built-in spell checker, in different natural languages (emacs ispell now supports close to 20).
- Ability of spell checker to check language comments only, instead of the whole document.
- Bookmarks.
- International support (unicode, different encodings, etc)
- Super-duper undo system.
- Auto-wrapping of lines on/off.
- Ability to apply diff patches automatically into the editor.
- Version control support (cvs, etc)
- Ability to compile/run the file.
- Ability to interpret any errors after compile/run and jump to lines of errors.
- Ability to invoke the debugger.
- Language sensitive menus.
- Support for editing binary files without mangling them.
- Block selection (ie. selecting a region as a column block, instead of multiple rows)
- Autobackups.
- File locking.
- Ability to save out your "desktop" settings (ie. what documents were open, where the cursor was in each doc, etc.) and easily revert to that on opening the editor.
- Ability to open zip/gzip/tar/lha files.
- Doxygen support (easily add comments, call doxygen, etc).
- Free, opensource and GPLed.
...etc...

Other minor things...
- Ability to read/answer mail and newsgroups from the editor.
- Ability to do google searches from the editor.
...etc...

noon
07-25-2005, 09:06 PM
It depends on what you are working.

Emacs if good for almost everything but if you make a win32 C++ or .Net application you should use Visual Studio.

gga
07-26-2005, 08:15 PM
if you make a win32 C++ or .Net application you should use Visual Studio.

If you make .net or win32 applications, you have even more reason to use emacs.
While the MS IDE has some good things about it (mainly the debugger), the actual text editor in it is pretty atrocious. Problems with it include:
a) Inability to change the color scheme. Just try setting the background to black and letters to white and see what happens to the rest of the ide. Using light colors for the bg in programming is in general pretty bad for the eyes in the long term and should be avoided.
b) Inability to adjust tabulation and settings to follow a certain guideline (ie. k&r, bsd, etc). The editor seems to rely on its own microsoft scheme for tabulation which is non-standard.
c) Lack of proper column settings leading to most code done in the microsoft editor to overflow the typical use of 80-characters per row, making it unreadable in most other editors.
d) Inability to keep a lot of files loaded and easily accessible. The IDE relies on using tabs for each file you open and just loading even 10 or so documents quickly puts the tabs outside the screen, forcing you to keep open the file window all the time if you need to switch files constantly.
e) Inability of the editor to add your own keywords. If you have a certain class name you use all the time and you want it highlited just as stl classes or so, there's no way to do so.
f) Lacks regex searching/replacing.
g) If I recall correctly, it also lacks a way to comment regions of text easily, but could be wrong about it (don't have it in front of me now).
h) No sort of autoback up. If you want to see what your file looked like 15 mins ago, you are kind of hosed, unless you checked it in.
i) The only source control system allowed is sourcesafe. You cannot use cvs, subversion, etc.
j) If I recall correctly, you cannot display two or more source files simultaneously, making cutting/pasting across sourcefiles a pain in the neck.
k) If I recall correctly, you cannot auto-indent regions of code easily.
l) Obviously issues such as running on a single os, supporting only a handful of languages, not being free or opensource, etc. add to the headaches.

The one and only feature that the microsoft editor has over emacs is that it has completion (ie. if you say type "this->x" it will list the variables and functions available to you that start with that letter, assuming you typed the .h file first).
The good thing about the microsoft ide is that it automatically detects changes to files done in external editors, so using emacs instead is really easy.

gga
07-26-2005, 09:33 PM
Is there a way to change a value (number) and replace them as define random value, eg: value of 1 change to between 0 to 2 ... using those text editor?

Sure. Here's an emacs function to do so.

(defun one-to-random ()
"Replace a value of one with a random one between 0 and 2."
(interactive)
(if (re-search-forward "\\b1\\b (file://\b1\b)" nil t)
(let ((rnd (number-to-string(/ (random 200000) 100000.0))))
(replace-match rnd nil nil)
)
)
)

To use this, type it in into any buffer in emacs, place yourself at the last parenthesis (ie. the one for the function) and do CTRL+X, CTRL+E. That will register the function with emacs. When you find functions you like, you can then place them in your .emacs file so that they will register automatically on booting emacs.

Then, to use it, just to do: ALT+X and then the name of the function (one-to-random).
The function will replace any integer that is one with a random float value between 0 and 2.

You can also do: ALT+X, "apropos one-to-random" and get docs about it.

Emacs unfortunately uses LISP for all of its coding, which albeit really powerful uses a pretty ugly syntax (LISP is said to jokingly stand for Lots of Incredibly Silly Parentheses). Then again, you have to respect a language that has lasted more than 50 years.

noon
07-26-2005, 09:45 PM
I agree for Auto-indent but for the rest :
a) you can change the color scheme of the editor, the rest of visual follow the windows colors settings.
b) you can change tab size and indent size and choose to insert spaces or real tabs.
c) using VisualAssist, you can display a marker at the column you want. It will not force you to write only 80 characters. Anyway who still use a 80 column monitor today ?
d) using CRTL+TAB CRTL+SHIFT+TAB to switch from one document to another can help. You can still replace emacs CRTL-XF with CRTL-O, and the source view is very usefull to and faster for me.
e) yes but i don't really see the point
f) regexp for replace or search are present (you just need to check "Use reular expression")
g) you can comment region. CTRL-KC to comment CTRL-KU to uncomment
h) It would be nice
i) you can have a custom source control. There is a also SVN plugin for VS called AnkhSVN. Personnaly i use tortoiseSVN.
j) you can show as many as file as you want in the editor simply by draging and docking a Tab.
k) Yes, i 'm not sure you can.

- I really like the visual editor, speacilly when using "VisualAssist" which makes you write really faster, and show the errors in your code.

- His debugger is very powerfull. You make conditional breakpoints, watch values, expand structures, change the values in live.

- Visual studio 2005 is even better with things like :
-- Refactoring which is really more powerfull than search/replace.
-- Autogenerate text (c# Properties).
-- UML Class diagram integration in both direction (change your code change the diagram)

gga
07-27-2005, 05:09 PM
I agree for Auto-indent but for the rest :
a) you can change the color scheme of the editor, the rest of visual follow the windows colors settings.)

It says it does, but it does not work. Give it a go, at least up to 7.1. Try a black bg and white letters. Whole parts of the gui become unreadable and other big sections don't change color appropiately. Quite embarassing for a product that costs thousands of bucks.


b) you can change tab size and indent size and choose to insert spaces or real tabs.

But you cannot tell it to always place brackets in or below the current if/while line, if you bring pre-ansi code I recall the editor would choke on some stuff, etc. I was probably a little unclear on what customizing to follow standards is.


c) using VisualAssist, you can display a marker at the column you want. It will not force you to write only 80 characters. Anyway who still use a 80 column monitor today ?

That's the thing. You want to have to code using an 80 column system. It is a traditional practice in programming. This makes sure that your code can be changed by anyone anywhere. It also leads to code that it is nicer to read, imo.


d) using CRTL+TAB CRTL+SHIFT+TAB to switch from one document to another can help. You can still replace emacs CRTL-XF with CRTL-O, and the source view is very usefull to and faster for me.

It is slower than using the speedbar/imenu in emacs. The main benefit of the speedbar in emacs is that you don't have to pre-load the files in the first place, which you do in the ms editor.


e) yes but i don't really see the point.

The point is making your code look nicer, just as with syntax coloring "int" or "float". Also, be more aware of different platforms. For example, on windows, on emacs I add all the microsoft custom keywords, such as:
DWORD, FLOAT, etc.
while if I were on a mac, I'd add its own keywords.
For coding mray shaders, i can also add miColor, miScalar, etc. and they show in the same scheme as "int" in casts or definitions.
If I code maya stuff, I can list all their classes, etc.
And so forth for any other custom struct/class that is of common use in whatever you code.


g) you can comment region. CTRL-KC to comment CTRL-KU to uncomment

Can you also change those hotkeys? Those key combos are horrible.


j) you can show as many as file as you want in the editor simply by draging and docking a Tab.

This kind of beats the whole purpose of it. If every time you want to edit two files you need to use the mouse to drag and drop windows, it makes you work very slow. Plus one of the things that drives me insane in the microsoft IDE is that docking windows never ends up the way I want.


- I really like the visual editor, speacilly when using "VisualAssist" which makes you write really faster, and show the errors in your code. .

Programmer beware. While the completion features of the editor are nice, they do become a problem as your code grows and your list takes several rows. Still the biggest issue with completion is that a fast typist can beat it all the time.


- His debugger is very powerfull. You make conditional breakpoints, watch values, expand structures, change the values in live.

All that stuff has been available in unix debuggers for 20 years (Well, maybe not expand structures), albeit it is true that only recently some decent guis like ddd have been written. The one thing that makes the microsoft debugger still better is that it can deal with multithreaded code with no problem, which is something that all open source debuggers still choke on.


-- Refactoring which is really more powerfull than search/replace.

Forgot about that, since I don't like relying on those tools. Refactoring is obviously available in emacs, since many moons ago. Supported languages include C++, Python, Smalltalk, Java, and probably others I am not aware of. Albeit admitedly it is not an integrated framework. Each refactoring tool is custom.
Still, refactoring is another programmer beware feature. It looks nice and often times it is, but it can also bite you.


-- Autogenerate text (c# Properties).

Not sure what this is exactly. When you have a scripting language in your editor, the ability to autogenerate text is kind of a given.


-- UML Class diagram integration in both direction (change your code change the diagram)

You like UML? Found it kind of a nice theory but in practice, too much of a hassle to use it yet. Better to still do it in a blackboard, if you ask me. Still... you can also get that now with emacs, close to a final 1.0 release (at least for lisp and c++):
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/ (cougar or COGRE)
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/cogre2.jpg
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/cogre3.jpg
Quite frankly Java is the leader on this type of thing, all others are trying to catch up.

rendermaniac
07-27-2005, 11:36 PM
I've heard one of the biggest problems with emacs is if you want to jump on someone else's computer and they also use emacs. There are so many ways of personalising it that their settings take too long to learn!

Having multiple documents open is nice - wish that nedit would add this. I am always impressed by people who know vi - the shortcuts to change text are impressive - I guess I could get the best (or worst??) of both worlds and use vi shortcuts in emacs - or is that just wrong? ;)

The nice thing about nedit is that it is simple, almost as ubiquitous as the others (it comes with X windows), does syntax highlighting, macros etc. But you do loose a lot of the power too of course.

Simon

gga
07-28-2005, 03:39 AM
I've heard one of the biggest problems with emacs is if you want to jump on someone else's computer and they also use emacs. There are so many ways of personalising it that their settings take too long to learn!

FUD. If you are logged in as another user, you can just load your setup doing:
> emacs -u yourlogin
Assuming of course your network is setup appropiately and "cd ~login/" takes you where it should.


Having multiple documents open is nice - wish that nedit would add this. I am always impressed by people who know vi - the shortcuts to change text are impressive - I guess I could get the best (or worst??) of both worlds and use vi shortcuts in emacs - or is that just wrong?

vi is kind of an interesting editor in that its more often used shortcuts and modes were designed with having your fingers never leave the central typing position in qwerty keyboards. This does make anyone that masters vi the fastest coders (but to achieve the top speed you do have to endure stuff like using j and what not to scroll around the text).
vi also, more than emacs, is better suited for system administration as it is so light that will work fine even if your system is crashing down in flames. A sysadmin that knows vi well is usually the first sign of having found a top-notch sysadmin.


Sorry, Simon, but your idea has already been taken.

Emacs already ships with not one, but two vi emulators.

If you just want to emulate the touch-typing, just do ALT+X and type "vi-mode".
If you add the following to your .emacs, you can then use ESC ESC to go into vi's navigation mode (leaving ESC-? still open for specific emacs shortcuts).
(define-key global-map "\e\e" 'vi-mode) ;quick switch into vi-mode

If you feel that's not enough of an emulation, you can then use the much newer and better viper-mode. ALT+X "viper-mode", which allows a relatively smooth transition from vi to emacs, by offering different compatability modes in the use of hotkeys, giving you truly the best of both worlds. In that case, to make viper mode permanent, just add the following to your emacs file:
(setq viper-mode t)
(require 'viper-mode) ;quick switch into vi-mode
viper-mode is smarter in that it will try to properly auto-detect the type of buffer being loaded to place you in vi mode (so, for example, directory listings will not use viper mode).
For more info on viper mode, use vi's ESC :help or read:
http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/RZ/software/emacs/viper/viper_3.html

noon
07-28-2005, 11:14 AM
It is slower than using the speedbar/imenu in emacs. The main benefit of the speedbar in emacs is that you don't have to pre-load the files in the first place, which you do in the ms editor.


Are you talking about this
http://limu.is.kyushu-u.ac.jp/faq/images/emacs-speedbar.png
Because VSS has the same thing ("solution explorer window"):
http://www.bistrotech.net/weblog/content/binary/exception.jpg


The point is making your code look nicer, just as with syntax coloring "int" or "float". Also, be more aware of different platforms. For example, on windows, on emacs I add all the microsoft custom keywords, such as:
DWORD, FLOAT, etc....


Actually it's possible in VSS :
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/vcug98/html/_asug_set_syntax_coloring.asp


Can you also change those hotkeys? Those key combos are horrible.


Yes you can change every hotkeys


This kind of beats the whole purpose of it. If every time you want to edit two files you need to use the mouse to drag and drop windows, it makes you work very slow. Plus one of the things that drives me insane in the microsoft IDE is that docking windows never ends up the way I want.


VSS 2005 introduced a new docking system :
http://www.codeproject.com/scrapbook/vslive_ny03/docking.gif
This way its very easy to place your window where you want


Programmer beware. While the completion features of the editor are nice, they do become a problem as your code grows and your list takes several rows. Still the biggest issue with completion is that a fast typist can beat it all the time.


Completion in not an obligation. If you want to type the rest of the characters you need you can. That's just a benefit.


Forgot about that, since I don't like relying on those tools. Refactoring is obviously available in emacs, since many moons ago.


I didn't say it hadn't


You like UML? Found it kind of a nice theory but in practice, too much of a hassle to use it yet. Better to still do it in a blackboard, if you ask me. Still... you can also get that now with emacs, close to a final 1.0 release (at least for lisp and c++):
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/ (cougar or COGRE)
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/cogre2.jpg
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/cogre3.jpg
Quite frankly Java is the leader on this type of thing, all others are trying to catch up.


Yes i like UML. If I had to help someone to get in my project, I would prefere to give him an UML diagram, than reformating all my code in 80 column...
Nice emacs text-diagrams. Not at my taste.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dv_vstechart/html/ClssDsgnr-fig01big.gif

One more thing about visual. His ability to create Winforms :
http://www.dotnetguru.org/articles/CSharpbuilder/images/vsdotnetwinformssmall.jpg

playmesumch00ns
07-28-2005, 02:12 PM
I've tried to use emacs but it's just too painful.
I actually wanted to try it again since this thread came up but the bloody thing won't compile: hey-ho.

Nothing beats visual-c++ with visual assist. It's easy on the eyes and actually helps you code rather than getting in the way. It's not about code completion so much as having the member functions of a class listed when you type '.' or '->'. When you're using a big API like the Maya API, for instance, it saves you hours of navigatin documentation.

If I was developing on windows that's all I'd use

gga
07-28-2005, 10:18 PM
I've tried to use emacs but it's just too painful.
I actually wanted to try it again since this thread came up but the bloody thing won't compile: hey-ho.

Are you masochistic or something? Just download a binary distribution. On linux, you usually find binaries disted in rpm format (you may need sudo privileges to install the rpm, so ask your sysadmin):
http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=emacs
If you are on windows, the windows binary is disted by gnu itself and should be in the windows/ subdirectory of the gnu's emacs ftp site.

Also, if you are new to emacs and are put off by the uglyness of its gui, xemacs (a variation on emacs that uses X on unix) provides a nicer alternative that also allows some additional features like icons, embedded images and splitting windows vertically. Binaries for all platforms can be obtained from:
http://www.us.xemacs.org/Download/index.html
The differences between xemacs and emacs are subtle. XEmacs will mainly not run command-line.
The main headache with XEmacs is that often times people will not test libraries with it so incompatabilities sometimes arise, but for a lot of people the benefits of using a GUI that is not strictly ascii based more than make up for it.

Nothing beats visual-c++ with visual assist.

IMO, Kind of everything beats the visual c++ text editor. The main redeeming quality of the microsoft ide is really the integrated debugger, which is really neat (particularly if you are doing an executable where you can take advantage of the re-compile and re-run cycle).
The state of the art in IDEs is now in java land.
Does the completion of MSVC actually help you with something like the maya api? If IIRC, the visual assist was just done from the open files only, not from includes on disk.
If you want just that sort of completion, emacs also does it out of the box (sans popping up a window). Just type, say:
a = this->te
(and then do ALT+/). Emacs will then autocomplete with any functions that start with the letters from any of the open buffers. If the completion is wrong, you can keep doing ALT+/ for the next alternative. As usual, this works with any language.

darktding
07-29-2005, 10:54 PM
wow! like playmesumch00ns mentioned its something tough... I am going to give it a shot though and try my best to pick up learning emacs, it has so many happy users... so im going to give it a shot...
btw thanks for the input gga...
if u got more emacs links do mention it...
thanks again

gga
07-30-2005, 07:13 AM
Ok, I've gone and done a short intro tutorial into emacs. It should take you about two hours or so to go thru it.

I've also added a personal .emacs file of mine and some additional lisp modules you might be interested in in a zip file attached to this message.

This should help anyone giving emacs a try to get started much more easily.

[Update: I added some new modes, fixed some things here and there, and added a new pabbrev mode that allows on the fly completion without the need to press alt+/]

gga
07-30-2005, 09:45 AM
Are you talking about this
http://limu.is.kyushu-u.ac.jp/faq/images/emacs-speedbar.png
Because VSS has the same thing ("solution explorer window"):
http://www.bistrotech.net/weblog/content/binary/exception.jpg


Actually, it is not the same thing. The speedbar is a full fledge file browser, similar to Windows Explorer. This allows you to browse the class and functions of all sort of files, even those that are not part of the project. You can also do common tasks like renaming or copying files.
The Microsoft class browser forces you to always Add the file to the project and only then you obtain the class/file information.


Yes i like UML. If I had to help someone to get in my project, I would prefere to give him an UML diagram, than reformating all my code in 80 column...


The thing about following 80 columns is that it also allows your code to be easily printed. While an UML diagram may help with the relationships among classes, seeing the relationships among functions often requires looking at the code. Being able to print the code can help with that.



One more thing about visual. His ability to create Winforms :
http://www.dotnetguru.org/articles/CSharpbuilder/images/vsdotnetwinformssmall.jpg

By winforms you mean visually drawing GUIs? Winforms is basically just a C# thing. In general this is not the task for the editor but of your preferred windows toolkit.
Window toolkits such as Qt, FLTK, etc. give you exactly the same functionality thru their GUI editors, but allow your code to be multiplatform and look exactly the same across platforms. Qt, which is mainly commercial and only partially GPL, offers a much richer widget toolkit than MFC and its editor is really nice in that it does not work with fixed positions, like the Microsoft GUI builders. Also, Qt is much better suited for internationalization.

noon
07-30-2005, 01:41 PM
Actually, it is not the same thing. The speedbar is a full fledge file browser, similar to Windows Explorer. This allows you to browse the class and functions of all sort of files, even those that are not part of the project. You can also do common tasks like renaming or copying files.The Microsoft class browser forces you to always Add the file to the project and only then you obtain the class/file information.


So opening an explorer window and drag and droping file to visual do the same thing.
I think it's a good things to have a project files only somewhere. For example you can search in project only files.


The thing about following 80 columns is that it also allows your code to be easily printed. While an UML diagram may help with the relationships among classes, seeing the relationships among functions often requires looking at the code. Being able to print the code can help with that.


Sequence or collaboration diagram can help for this. VSS 2005 will not include it. But maybe the next version or a plugin.


By winforms you mean visually drawing GUIs? Winforms is basically just a C# thing. In general this is not the task for the editor but of your preferred windows toolkit.
Window toolkits such as Qt, FLTK, etc. give you exactly the same functionality thru their GUI editors, but allow your code to be multiplatform and look exactly the same across platforms. Qt, which is mainly commercial and only partially GPL, offers a much richer widget toolkit than MFC and its editor is really nice in that it does not work with fixed positions, like the Microsoft GUI builders. Also, Qt is much better suited for internationalization.

Since the window designer need to generate code in a file, it's not a bad thing that it is integrated with the editor.
Winform is not MFC. You can use a lot of widget. I believe as many as Qt. Here is a website that show some of them :
http://www.windowsforms.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=10&tabid=50
When you say Qt is much better for internationalization, have only tried Winform internationalization ? (winform is not MFC)

Now, for the multiplatform, I agree, but I said in my first post, use VSS only if you plan to do a windows application. Most of the time I don't mind about portability. If you do, don't use c#, don't use VSS (or only to compile your file in windows), until the mono projet is finished.

cJaynes
08-02-2005, 12:35 PM
pico and vi, but when I like a nice gui netbeans for java and codewarrior for c/c++. The later programs really help out when I am debuggin with stepping into functions and what not.

poe
08-03-2005, 11:58 AM
christ, this sounds like a bunch of bedroom coders flaming each other.

for anyone who will never need to work in teams, use proper tools: xcode, corewarrior, VSS, eclipse whatever... things that companies will use in collaborative environments and can help with auto documentation creation (as in VSS) and have decent project managment options built in. painfull little tools like vi(m) etc should be kept for little tasks you dont want to open a large footprint IDE for.

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