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View Full Version : What makes Vue 5 so powerful compared to Maya?


davidbasalla
07-16-2005, 03:27 PM
UPDATE:
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I've finished my project (finished it last year actually)... if anyone is interested, u can find the paper on it here:
http://ncca.bournemouth.ac.uk/jmacey/Msc05/DavidBasallaMastersProject.pdf

Here's some images and links:

http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/landscape4.jpg (http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/landscape.mp2)


http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/loneTreeShot.jpg (http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/loneTree100frames.mp2)

PS: Let me know if the links dont work, I seem to have some trouble with them at the moment...


ORIGINAL POST:
----------------


Hi,
I just read about Vue 5 Infinite in 3D World and it featured a really cool-looking scene of a palm tree forest and a huge rock, also populated with trees. Now in the magazine it says that by the end, the scene consisted of almost 3 billion polygons and it should still be running smoothly. How the heck is that possible?
At the moment, Im trying to do something similar in Maya (see below). The scene below has about 1.4 million polygons and its really struggling. Admitted my computer is almost 2 years old now (using a Radeon 9800 Pro as Graphics Card), but somehow the article makes it sound as if it was all down to the software...
so, does anyone know how Vue handles all these polygons? or can modern graphics cards actually display billions of polygons?
Cheers, Dave


http:///www.stufftolookat.f2s.com/Dave/palmTrees5.jpg

clodhopper
07-16-2005, 09:08 PM
yea. theres no chance that Vue is really giving you a hardware preview with billions of polys in it. The viewport substitutes Everything.
The Rendering is actually not anymore powerful than mental ray. The trick is that its all instanced. instanced geometry is only read once as opossed to unique geometry. If you setup a scene in Maya to be instanceing every tree and mountian; you could get into the BIllions in maya...its your hardware preview that will crash out, not the rendering. Vue is streamlined to give a really crappy, but efficient preview that will handle that data while only showing a small fraction in the viewport. "billions of polys" is really not accurate at all, the rendering engine is powerful, but imo it doesn't do anything that mental ray couldn't.

Mike.H
07-17-2005, 01:51 AM
the one twist is that the instancing in vue5I can actually produce "unique" objects, if you use the ecosystem in v5I to instancify (or whatever itīs called :P) a forest consisting of 10.000 trees you can use the features in the eco system to alter the behaviour of every single tree so that they would all have itīs own little unique look/color etc or to be alittle more realistic, alter the behaviour and looks of the trees depending on height/slope/general placement etc.

So clodhopper is correct that it can display all those polys thanks to instancing but it is alittle different then instancing in other packages, and even without instancing vue actually handles alot of polys quite well.

Other then that the render engine itself isnt more powerful or anything, thing is v5I isnt a replacement to maya or any similar 3d application, itīs just ment to be used for the areas where itīs good at (scenery/landscapes/vegetation) combined with your other production tools.

davidbasalla
07-17-2005, 02:47 PM
thanks for the pointers!
yeah, i guess the point with vue is that it is specifically designed to hack these sort of scenes and is optimized for that, whereas Maya does a whole load of other things altho not as fast or as efficiently.
I guess to do these sort of scenes, Vue is the best choice of software... however... i intend to do some sort of td work as a job, so Im gonna try to do it with maya anyway :)
at the moment Im thinking of doing the rendering with renderman, such as exporting points with rotational and positional data over a poly landscape from maya. In the rib files ill then import each tree model at rendertime, so that I never have to deal with all the trees in any viewport... i think that technique is being used in industry quite alot, so Im gonna give it a go...
Ill post again if I get anywhere with it...

Mono Jojoy
07-19-2005, 03:20 PM
I have seen that, the Vue preview is REALLY crappy, so crappy that it is also REALLY tricky to fine adjust ojects relative to each other and you always wonder: Are they finally all at the right place?

Mike.H
07-19-2005, 04:04 PM
i agree that the preview can be improved upon even more, however itīs not crappy in vue5, but yes it needs to be improved even more in my opinion alongside with some other things, but with opengl turned on i honestly dont see it as being crappy.

Then again youīre using vue3 so i can understand your opinion....

Mono Jojoy
07-19-2005, 04:39 PM
USING VUe3???
I wished I could use it. It always crashes.

Initially only sometimes but after installing the Vue4 demo version I just cant run it any more.

I have tried to uninstall it all and reinstall only the VUe3 but also that doesnt work.
I have also cleaned the registry by hand and then reinstalled vue3. Also that doesnt work.
I wanted to play around a bit with Vue 3 to see if I like the general concept, but I cant even do this because of its instability.

Seems Vue is extremely system dependant. On some it runs without ant hickup, on others it crashes all the time.

Dale B
07-20-2005, 02:07 AM
The older the Vue version, the more truth there is in that statement. Infinite doesn't tend to suffer from the kinds of troubles that Vue 4 and before did, but due to the increased interconnection with the OS, it opens up whole new areas of trouble potential. The hardest concept to get across to a user is that just because what they have works doesn't mean it is working -properly-. Codecs are a Vue-killer, for instance. They may 'work' in a viewer, but a busted codec will CTD any version of Vue, and without so much as a hint of error. Never mind what a weak dimm stick will do to you..... :argh:

Megalodon
07-20-2005, 06:31 AM
Vue3 was the first version I bought - it NEVER crashed. I NEVER had a problem with it. Vue4Pro would crash ocassionally, but really not very often. Vue5I has yet to crash on me as well. I had Vue3 installed on a machine with WinNT, 256mb RAM and integrated video card at work and a completely different machine at home - no crashes on either machine.

Perhaps it has more to do with the machine that Vue is installed on than directly related to the software - or a combination of both. It just seems odd that I (and others) have not had as many problems as some actually do. And NO, I don't think you've got cracked copies - I think it's more to do with the machines. Different software accesses the hardware differently, so while one may work fine - Poser for instance - another (Vue) may not work as well.

I can't imagine being a programmer since there are so many variables in machines to consider. Hell, two different sticks of RAM can make a system unstable. Go figure.

Megalodon

BazC
07-22-2005, 11:58 AM
[QUOTE=Perhaps it has more to do with the machine that Vue is installed on than directly related to the software - or a combination of both. It just seems odd that I (and others) have not had as many problems as some actually do. And NO, I don't think you've got cracked copies - I think it's more to do with the machines. Different software accesses the hardware differently, so while one may work fine - Poser for instance - another (Vue) may not work as well.[/QUOTE]


I have Vue4, I'm going to buy Vue5 and eventually I will probably upgrade to V5I. Vue isn't rock solid for me but it is relatively stable. However as has been said before some people cannot run Vue without crashing! Of course it's difficult ensuring an app will run well on every hardware/software combination but other companies manage it! Cinema is rock solid on just about any configuration. Macs don't vary nearly as much as Windows machines but Vue's stability on Macintosh seems even more variable than on Windows! I do think E-on should work a bit harder on this aspect of an otherwise excellent app! - Baz

Mike.H
07-22-2005, 12:28 PM
I do think E-on should work a bit harder on this aspect of an otherwise excellent app! - Baz

That i do agree fully with, stability can be improved upon thatīs evident even tho it is very solid for me, but thatīs also what e.on is doing, each beta patch for vue5 make things better but thereīs still a bit to go.

Hopefully theyīll nail it pretty soon with vue5 and hopefully that solid foundation will be brought over to vue6 right from the get go, but in reality most applications if not all, always have bugs itīs just a question of them interfering or not with our needs.

BazC
07-22-2005, 04:34 PM
"Hopefully theyīll nail it pretty soon with vue5 and hopefully that solid foundation will be brought over to vue6 right from the get go,"

I'll drink to that! :o)

agiel
07-22-2005, 04:45 PM
Actually this whole discussion will become a moot point after the coming Siggraph :)

This just in - e-on software will unveil a new product, Vue Fusion, to bring ecosystems (among other things) to Maya :)

Ok... I don't usually repeat press releases from e-on, but I got this along with my subscription to Siggraph this year and it looks too good to pass :)

-------

Vue Fusion plug-in suite announced

----------------------------------------------------

We have the great pleasure of sharing with you this piece of information regarding e-on’s current developments.

This fall, e-on software will be releasing the Vue Fusion suite of plug-ins for Max or Maya. These plug-ins enable CG professionals to totally integrate their 3D projects into Vue environments. Thanks to Vue Fusion, Vue 5 Infinite environments will become a seamless part of the Max or Maya scenery. In one single render pass, Max or Maya elements will be rendered together with Vue elements, accurately matching shadows, reflections and illumination to deliver totally blended CG footage without requiring any additional effort.

Following is a hot-list of Vue Fusion features:

- Load and preview entire Vue environments in the Max or Maya interface.

- Supports e-on software's revolutionary EcoSystem™ technology.

- Compatible with Max's MentalRay and Maya Software and MentalRay renderers.

- Uses Vue's render engine for efficient processing of billion-polygon Vue environments.

- Automatic creation of matching Max/Maya/Vue cameras and lights.

- Edit Vue 5 Infinite environments directly from within Max or Maya (using the Vue interface*).

- Reciprocal shadow, reflection and refraction casting between Max/Maya and Vue elements.

- Vue atmospheres (Standard, Volumetric and Environment Mapping) can be loaded into Max or Maya,


*Requires a separate license of Vue 5 Infinite. Vue objects cannot be edited independently in Max/Maya without prior export from Vue.

Vue Fusion is expected to ship this fall. A version of Vue Fusion for LightWave and Cinema4D is currently under development. Other renderers are under consideration.

Vue Fusion will be demonstrated at Siggraph in LA Convention Center on e-on software’s booth (#824) from August 2 to August 4, 2005.

Mike.H
07-22-2005, 05:35 PM
well yes it will for sure increase the adaptation of vueInfinite amongst a bigger mass of max and maya/c4d/lw userīs, which is good for e.on and us since it can only mean an increase of revenue, which should translate to even better vue/e.on products in the future.

But for now it will for sure mean that e.on do need to step up on the stability issues and memory leakīs, because the bigger userbase, the more evident it will become (more people will experience those bugs that some lucky people like me doesnt seem to be affected by so much)

Anyway, im looking forward to fusion since it can only increase the value and ease of use of vue as production pipeline tool.

AtrusDni
06-09-2006, 12:52 AM
Mental Ray can handle just as many polys, at least from my experience. I got mental ray to render out 130 million polys before, it took a little over 24 hours to do, but it did it with no probs. The prolem is most people dont know the best way to optimize their scene for mental ray to handle it, and how to tweak mental ray effeciently.

pixelmonk
06-09-2006, 04:50 PM
the one twist is that the instancing in vue5I can actually produce "unique" objects, if you use the ecosystem in v5I to instancify (or whatever itīs called :P) a forest consisting of 10.000 trees you can use the features in the eco system to alter the behaviour of every single tree so that they would all have itīs own little unique look/color etc or to be alittle more realistic, alter the behaviour and looks of the trees depending on height/slope/general placement etc.

So clodhopper is correct that it can display all those polys thanks to instancing but it is alittle different then instancing in other packages, and even without instancing vue actually handles alot of polys quite well.

Other then that the render engine itself isnt more powerful or anything, thing is v5I isnt a replacement to maya or any similar 3d application, itīs just ment to be used for the areas where itīs good at (scenery/landscapes/vegetation) combined with your other production tools.

you can actually tweak shaders to add color randomization in Maya for imported objects, like trees. You can also use PaintFX which can alter the look of each tree/plant. It's no where near as easy than it is with Vue. There aren't any real good terrain shaders to help make a realistic looking terrain. It's pretty much brute force texturing work and maybe something liek JS_Incidence. I know Max has some that can do slope, altitude, etc. and looks pretty good. It's a shame there's nothing out there for Maya (yet) that makes it easy.

Here's one article on how Maya and Renderman were used to create a forest:
http://ncca.bournemouth.ac.uk/jmacey/Msc05/DavidBasallaMastersProject.pdf

davidbasalla
06-25-2006, 10:26 PM
hehe, hello again, its been a while...

pixelmonk: that paper at the end of your post is great! it is however also written by me... :D
that was my final report after finishing the project. I decided to choose Renderman as a renderer since it can easily render millions of polygons. I used Maya as a starting point to calculate tree positions, then I passed that information into a rib file to render the final image. It worked quite well in the end...

Here's some examples of the final outcome:


http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/landscape4.jpg
example1 (http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/landscape.mp2)

http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/loneTreeShot.jpg
example2 (http://www.davidbasalla.com/Dave/loneTree100frames.mp2)

thanks for all the replies!

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