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jmBoekestein
07-13-2005, 04:40 AM
Hello people :)

I tried to get proportions right in this one, I don't really use any reference or what not, only a middle line for keeping symmetry. PLease go slow(not easy) on me, I never had any schooling for this.

She was drawn from memory on top of a scanned sketch. I'm going to model this one too.

I'm very eager to get some critique on the proportions, it's somehwat stylised but I would hope the 3d version to be better regarding realism. :D sideview should be up soon. (but better wait for some comments :rolleyes: )

I liked the long neck so I kept it...I'm worried about the hands.
Since she's going to be modelled she needs to be 'flat' orthogonal and such...yaddah yaddah...:) I had troubles with parallax on my previous attempt. SO I would really like to know whether the spacial proportions are correct, I mean no perspective whatsoever. (though one imho)
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/461/vixenconcepts2sa.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
I feel a bit bad about posting a new thread for this sort of content on this froum. Kind of feels like I'm mucking the place, it's so neatly ordered too:). Should this be some place else?

goldenarm
07-13-2005, 05:02 AM
Nice drawing, I like it! You might want to consider a more stylized body to match the neck and face? It looks a little odd right now, maybe just make the head bigger or something? Sometimes if parts of a "stylized" design are not exaggerated enough it can seem like a mistake. Hope that makes sense?

PixelFloss
07-13-2005, 07:22 AM
jmBoekestein,
The sketch is very nice.:cool:
i don't have any formal training either but speaking from a personal preference point of view :D perhaps you should add a little mass around the shoulders/chest. From the looks she's working out regularly (or killing villains or smth) so bigger shoulders should be nice.:cool:

thetrianglekid
07-13-2005, 07:24 AM
i'm no expert, but i've been reading a figure drawing book by loomis and he breaks down male and female proportions very well. i'll try to apply some of the concepts he talks about.

it's pretty crude, so just stick w/ me. hahaha. if any of the more experienced peeps would like to help me out or point out if something i say is wrong, please do so!

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/thetrianglekid/vixenconcepts2sa-proportionsfix.jpg

here's your picture with my very ugly proportion lines on top of it. (i don't have a tablet, just using a mouse)

the RED LINES indicate the TRUE proportions, based on loomis' "ideallized 8 heads." that is, an idealized human body stands 8 heads tall, male or female. note, comic book and "heroic" characters may stand 8 1/2 or even 9 heads tall, but i think you're asking about realism and 8 heads is the accepted standard.

the meeting line of each of these sections is a landmark on the body.

the GREEN LINES indicate the areas where your drawing doesn't match up with the landmarks.

let's go through them.

1) the RED line should be at her heels, this is close enough, but consider that if her legs are together, her heels will extend past this line, and perhaps even past 8 1/2 and closer to 9 heads.

2) for an 8 head sized female figure, this line should be at the BOTTOM of the knees. your bottom of the knees rests at the 2 i've painted. so the shins are a bit short in proportion with the upper leg

3) this line should be at the middle of the upper leg/femur, looks good. BUT, the arms should end JUST above this line. yours are a bit short and this is the primary problem with the figure vs. realistic proportions.

4) this is the middle point of the model and it should be at the crotch, looks good.

5) this is where both the waist and elbows should be. your torso is almost spot on (the line rests right at the top of her hips now, should rest a bit higher), but your ARMS are short. i've marked in green 5 where your elbows are, they should be at red 5. you might also see that i've marked 5 1/5 in blue.

the green 5 1/3 shows that your arms are 1/3 head length too short. this might remedy the arms not ending at red 3 as well.

6) this is spot on. it should be at the widest point of the shoulders, right above the nipples. blue 6 1/3 is where it's supposed to be at the bottom of the breasts.

7) red 7 should be at the chin, and it is. this means the distance between your 6 and 7 is right, but what's in between is a little off. though i know you meant for the neck to be long, the blue 7 1/3 mark shows you where the shoulders would go on an ideal figure and where it is at the green 7 1/3.


the YELLOW lines are width measurers. the widest point of the shoulders should be two heads wide. the waist should be one head. the hips should be 1 1/2. and if the legs where together, the widest part of her calves would be 1 head wide.

overall this is a pretty accurate representation of the 8 headed female body, the torso, width and height, are almost spot on. the problems rest in the arms, and knowing that you did it w/ no reference and just symmetry is pretty impressive.

hope this helps a bit.

NOOB!
07-13-2005, 09:39 AM
whoa!,this shud have gone in the proportions thread!...

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 12:05 PM
jmBoekestein,

EDIT: DUH, didn't realize the Proportions were drawn over YOUR drawing! Sorry about that! :rolleyes:

AWESOME DRAWING! :)

And actually, this whole post should probably go here:

2D CONCEPT ARTISTS - TRADITIONAL AND DIGITAL (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=257602)

Trying to keep things as streamlined as possible :) ~ Let me know if you guys need additional categories / threads in which to post! :)

~Thank you for posting this! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-13-2005, 12:23 PM
Wow! Thanks for the quick replies here! :D

The trianglekid, I'm skittish about these rules of thumb, but looking now I can trace back exactly where I went wrong. Pretty interesting, I wasn't at all sure about the arms for instance, and I had no 'terminator' for the foot region. Thanks for the extremely helpful overpaint. I'm going to try and fix them today and post an update tonight. I have loomis' pdf's, I'll skim through them too, I hadn't checked before.

Goldenarm, odd huh, these guides really work. when someone said before head a little bigger I had simply widened it. :)lol.

Pixelfloss, good idea, i had imagined her a gunslinger though with some sexy kicks. :), I'll give her more muscle if it still appears elegant.

NOOB...yeah!...uh, yeah?

Oops, hadn't seen your post yet Rebecca. :) sorry about that. Thanks...I'll post other stuff in the specific threads from now on. Just not used to it, sorry.

thx again!!! :scream:

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 02:27 PM
Though I know it's a stylized figure, one thing I would say is that the head is a bit smallish for the figure and that the neck is too curved, giving her a giraffe~like look. Her shoulders also look a bit crushed ~ the shoulders really should be the widest part of the arms, and right now they are smaller than the upper arm in terms of width.

The face / head is excellent ~ it just needs to be enlarged a bit.
Additionally, a major flaw is that the tips of one's fingertips, when one's arms are relaxed, typically fall nearly to the knee ~ her arms are rather short, even for a character ~ she seems to grow as you near her feet ~ this is something I do as well ~ but her lower body, especially the legs, are too elongated, at least in my opinion.

The legs are, however, proportional to THEMSELVES, and that is a quick Photoshop fix to shrink them a bit and reattach them to her body.

But the LINE quality is EXCELLENT, and you are to be commended for it! :)

I'll post more if I can think of anything.

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-13-2005, 02:40 PM
wow, thank you...

I had some troubles with those parts indeed. :blush: I'm not so good with photoshop though, but I'll get on it. Should have an update later on in the day. :)

:D

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 02:54 PM
Guys,

This thread is dedicated to the study of ORTHOGRAPHIC DRAWINGS FOR 3D MODELING in TRADITIONAL AND DIGITAL MEDIA.

Please post your best FOOT / FEET STUDIES here!

Please post:

1. Your BEST WORK!
2. Medium used
3. Time spent to complete
4. A bit about your process

Thanks in advance for your posts! :)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 03:15 PM
I'm sure it will be awesome! Can't wait to see the 3D model, too! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-13-2005, 11:02 PM
I tried at all of the issues, just had trouble letting her shoulder and neck go...:blush:

I couldn't help but notice she looked like amidget after resizing her legs, so I did the lines too. I think I wasn't that far off at all. I'm guessing her crotch needs to be lower slightly on the line just under it. I can't see what else.

Any advice would be grately apprecitated...:D
And still, thanks for the big help...I found those lines tpo be pretty helpful in the end...I better start sketching like that I guess.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4447/vixenconcepts7hl.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
uh...the arms are still scruffy, I only moved those...

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 12:34 AM
Lol, I guess we all get attached to our work :) ~ Plus, I'm sure things will change rather drastically once you start to model and tweak things ~ do you work in Max / Maya? Just curious :)

Good luck with this, and please post your final results :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-14-2005, 01:23 AM
I work in both but for this one I'm going to with max. :)

That bad huh? attached...:surprised...well, maybe a little different then?

I'm also going to try Zbrsh to some extent, for normal mapping, she's for a game(idea).

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 02:09 AM
"Bad"? No way! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-14-2005, 02:12 AM
hahah ok...:) thanks again...

jmBoekestein
07-14-2005, 07:33 PM
I have been pulling and pushing the last hour. And want to get back to the aesthetics asap...

I think I fixed the most of it by now, not sure about how much space needs to be between her legs. otherwise I think she's good by now. I haven't added feet yet because I haven't settled on a design yet...so that might distract the eye a bit I'm sorry to say..

Well have at it...:D...I don't know what to look for anylonger...

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/6546/vixenconcept21jz.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

jmBoekestein
07-14-2005, 08:10 PM
Hullo...:)

I'm makng this as both an experiment and a test of my know-how/inventivity/insight with modeling and efficiency and the production necessities for making 3d models.

FOr instance parallax effects are for me very difficult to dismiss from concepts, since I cannot see without them.
Well, anyway, here's the concept I'm working on. I think it's finished. :)Except for the footwear which is not decided on.

here you can see it with prooportion guides...which I added later on to understand if they work.
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7356/vixenconcept2propguide9kb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

and this is her without guides.
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7546/vixenconcept22sx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Sorry for the etra thread in the forum. I thought I'd work a bit more on her before posting in this thread. :)Not much but it's here... great effort you've put in this Rebecca, I bet it'll be a great forum. :thumbsup:

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 09:18 PM
jmBoekestein,

I've done a few minor tweaks to your kick a** drawing, which are just to be taken into consideration, and with a grain of salt. Let me know what you think :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/FOR%20GENERAL%20REVIEW/REVIEWED_SET_Boekestein.jpg

I still think the shoulders (in your 2nd drawing) could be given a bit more mass, and that the neck muscles could be a bit more elaborated upon. Additionally, the legs could be sized down a bit and still give her a superhero appearance. These are just my two cents. What do you think? :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-15-2005, 01:17 AM
I've been looking it over and I think yours looks really good, legs look really normal(it's a compliment :)). I have to do some lifedrawing soon! And I completely see what you mean with the shoulders now, An illustration says a lot more. :D
I'm going to fix that today. The arms I'm not sure about though. I guess because you roughed them in I can't see what you mean. :blush:

Getting to work it over right now. Thank you!


She really looks like a marvel hero like this, neat. :D Are the legs you drew stylised or are they how they look? I always thought the leg had to come into the knee(inwards, inside :rolleyes: ). They look pretty straight here. And should the knee cap be in the middle or the outer side a bit.

Rebeccak
07-15-2005, 01:38 AM
jmBoekestein wrote,

>The arms I'm not sure about though. I guess because you roughed them in I can't see what you mean.

No worries :) Yep, I did the arms kind of quickly ~ I was trying to show that the fingertips would brush about mid-thigh ~ so I think it would be cool to extend the length of the arms just a bit more than you already did, to make the figure a bit more believable.

>Getting to work it over right now. Thank you!

Awesome! Like I say, these are just my 2 cents ~ this isn't the Lesson thread, I am just giving my opinion (as always) :)

>She really looks like a marvel hero like this, neat. :D Are the legs you drew stylised or are they how they look?

I tried to stylize her legs a bit ~ I like the way you drew the legs, I think they just need to be a bit shorter. I will never tell someone how to draw stylistically ~ it's too personal. Mainly I was just trying to get the thigh to be a bit shorter ;)

>I always thought the leg had to come into the knee(inwards, inside :rolleyes: ). They look pretty straight here. And should the knee cap be in the middle or the outer side a bit.

The way I drew the legs, it does look a bit more straight. Your drawing does show the legs turned outward a bit more.

Good luck with your finished drawing :) Definitely post it! :)

~Rebeccak

Augh
07-15-2005, 03:32 AM
Hi jm, looking good :)

Sittin here trying to see what I can see, and I just noticed; If I hinge my elbow straight up, I can knock on the ball at the top of my humerus/shoulder joint with thumb, I mean the natural curve/swing passes through there. How does this track against her proportional upper and lower arm? Maybe the upper is a little long?

Check it out maybe, best of luck :)

Edit: hrm hrm hrm, the gloves are really throwing me. I think probably you should ignore this crit on reflection. Apologies :D

jmBoekestein
07-16-2005, 07:27 PM
Thanks again Rebecca, very good suggestions, I haven't got around to fixing everything I'd like yet. :blush:

And thanks Augh...:)

Well here's the latest WIP, the two lines down below indicate the heel level. Arms need work and possibly the legs too. Allthough I'm fairly attached to them , heh. :rolleyes: simply WIP because I'm going out for the night... :cool:

Any comments most welome. :thumbsup:
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8420/vixenconcept4b7pw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Rebeccak
07-18-2005, 03:21 PM
jmBoekestein,

Hey, I think you've done a great job refining your Orthographic Drawing, and I appreciate your taking my and others' comments into consideration. It takes a lot to amend a drawing as nice as yours, so thanks for being a good sport about listening to our various advice and comments :).

Here is what I think you've done a great job on ~ as per usual, take this with a grain of salt :)


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/Orthographic%20Drawings/REVIEWED_SET_Boekestein-3.jpg

Overall, I think she looks more proportional (relative to an action character). Again, thanks for taking everyone's advice into consideration! I hope to see more of your work! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
07-18-2005, 05:06 PM
Well I really appreciate the advice. She looks a lot better now, says it all I guess.

Thanks for the great help :D. I found her some footwear now and will be switching over to the side and back view soon, lol. I'll be posting updates on her as I go. I'll keep it concise don't worry. :D

You give great advice! I'm having good time. :) The improvement is obvious. :bounce:

Rebeccak
07-18-2005, 05:23 PM
Wow, great, I'm glad the advice helps! I was worried there would be a ton of posts going, nah, looked better to begin with :D ~so I'm glad you are happy with the changes.

Thanks for the posts! I look forward to seeing more of your work! Choose the shoes wisely, my friend, wisely... :p

~Rebeccak

EDIT: Did I write "more better" in my review? Jeez, I need to go back to the school for the Grammatically Challenged...:rolleyes:

jmBoekestein
08-16-2005, 08:24 PM
HI again.

I started work on this one again, and plan to finish her soon so I can finally start trying some things in 3d.
I thought I'd post a little update since the feedback has proven quite useful so far. :D
Thanks again.

front and back view this time. I changed the legs a bit.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6054/vixenconceptsmall2jo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Rebeccak
08-16-2005, 08:40 PM
jmBoekestein,

What, hey? I was just on this thread collecting images for the "SPOTLIGHT" thread, and I notice you just posted new work!! Either that's a cool coincidence, or...I'm just downright psychic!!! Cool beans, I will take a better look at this when I can! :) Nice...a** :scream:

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-16-2005, 08:44 PM
Cool, that's weird... :surprised

Well, I'll be waiting.

:blush: hahah... uh heh... the a** yes, thanks... :D

nebezial
08-17-2005, 01:09 AM
OK HERE ARTE AS THEY SAY IT MY TWO CENTS, her neck seems too long but that is because her head is just a notch too small, try resizing it for a few percent, it will mean a world of difference and will remove the african rings round the neck effect ozherwise a kickass lady:thumbsup:

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 01:13 AM
Ok... :surprised, I'll just have to try that then. I just dopn't see it myself, heh.

Thanks :D!!!

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 01:57 AM
jmBoekestein,

I prolly won't be able to get to your image til tomorrow sometime. :) ~Plus, oddly, from home I can't see it. Sorry about this...if it's urgent, you can email it to me at the address listed on my website: rebeccak4@gmail.com.

Sorry for the hassle! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 02:05 AM
Wow, no worries Rebecca. That's perfectly fine, no such hurry. :blush: Very big thanks for the offer though. I really appreciate it.

And don't worry about it, it can wait really. It was a figure of speech... sounds odd :surprised

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 02:08 AM
Lol, thanks jmB. :) From what I saw of it at work, it looked awesome!!! What was all that nonsense you were writing on another thread about 'not being able to draw'? That's insane, lol!!! :scream:

~Rebecca

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 02:19 AM
Well... y'eh' no... :surprised... ok I can draw.

I tried freehand painting a while back... that didn't uh... go as expected. I'll get the hang of it though, it's like swimming, you don't learn untill someone pushes you in the water and makes you. :) Lol, I'm keepin at it anyway, great fun.

I'll post it in your anatomy workshop too. :) It suits the topic.

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 03:30 PM
Ok the plan for now is to move the shoulders a bit upwards and thereby shortening the neck. I think this'll work best because the rest of her body measures up in the 8 heads guides, for the better part at least.

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 03:34 PM
jm,

Right now my main critique would be that her bottom is rather enormous in comparison to her upper torso (rib cage). Relative to the rib cage, the pelvis is about 1/2 the size or even less ( in terms of height). I think the shoulders look a bit narrow and the head a tad too oblong...

But the drawing quality is pretty sweet! :thumbsup:

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 04:22 PM
Hmm thx... The head being too oblong is a problem since it will seem more narrow with parallax effect, I'll probably widen it a bit.

I stole somebody elses reference of a body here on cgtalk, I hope that'll help. Looks like you're right on all accounts.

Thanks. I'm going to look into it now, maybe keep some things I'm not sure. I want it fiished relatively soon, but better do it right though. :)

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 04:31 PM
jm,

Hey, good luck with this, I know you know what you're doing...please post your updated results, should be really cool! :thumbsup:

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 04:41 PM
Will do! :)

I'm going over the reference now. Upper part of the hip is definitely too wide, that creates the illusion of the undefined areas looking smaller, I should try and add more shading effects to her.

Will keep you posted. :)

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 06:33 PM
Ok, I think I fixed it all now...

Adjusted shoulders and hips... :)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4748/vixenconcept115si.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 06:56 PM
jm,

Coolness! It's hard for me to see the specific differences without overlapping them, so give me a bit o' time and I'll jimmie up a comparison... :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 06:59 PM
Ok, thanks a lot Rebecca!!! You're a great help to me. :D

Oh I'll put up the reference I found for the adjustements I made... Upper body isn't that strong, but the lower body's fine. I shoud maybe fine tune the legs too, not really sure. Any idea's.

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6470/body1dm.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=body1dm.jpg)

I'm not copying this ref... just in case. :)

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 07:43 PM
jm,

Ok, here is the tiniest of reviews...it's totally a judgement call on your part, and, as always, just a suggestion: :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/Orthographic%20Drawings/Boekestein_2_Girl_Back_gife.gif

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 07:46 PM
JPGS just in case... :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/Orthographic%20Drawings/Boekestein_2_Girl_1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/Orthographic%20Drawings/Boekestein_2_Girl_2.jpg

Hope this helps! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 07:51 PM
Thanks rebecca! I think I see your point. :D

But could you elaborate a bit on which part seems off, or is it the lower body in general?

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 07:57 PM
jm,

I think her buttocks were still too big relative to her upper torso/rib cage, and her legs looked a bit longish also ~ so basically all I did was to shrink her buttocks and legs slightly to try to bring them more in line proportionally to the rest of her body. Like I say, it's a judgement call, and you're free to take this with a grain of salt. :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-17-2005, 08:03 PM
Ok thanks!

I'll have a go at it, I don't think the hips are a big issue allthough not too athletic, it's nice to see. (as long as she doesn't look like the wrong kind of nuclear baby)

Thanks again. :D Great stuff.

Rebeccak
08-17-2005, 10:03 PM
jm,

No prob! :)

~Rebeccak

jfrancis
08-19-2005, 07:12 PM
The elbows in the front view need some adjustment.

Right now you flare the forearms out symmetrically at the elbow. This gives the forearm a wooden mannequinn aspect.

You should flare the inner part of the elbow pretty much where it is. A bunch of flexors originate at the medial epicondyle of the humerus.

HOWEVER...

http://www.daanspanjersberg.nl/site/16632/spiergroepen/photo25.jpg

You should push the outer flare of the forearm UP so that it is ABOVE the elbow. Muscles like the brachioradialis originate above the epicondyles, actually on the humerus itself.

---

It looks like you've eased this correction into the latest drawings without mentioning it, but you are doing it more with one arm than with the other. I'd suggest ghosting in an axis where you think the elbow bend actually would occur, and make sure the muscle masses sit outside/high inside/low with respect to that axis.

Rebeccak
08-19-2005, 07:20 PM
jfrancis,

Great comments!! :thumbsup: Thanks for these thoughts! :)

~Rebeccak

jmBoekestein
08-19-2005, 09:33 PM
Thanks jfrancis.

I was aware of it but was thinking it would be easier to solve in the sideview. From here it would bea lot fidgetting but maybe I'll just fix it enough to look ok with your comments, the more the better! :)

Thanks. :thumbsup:


edit: Thanx for the great pic... I'm heading to scavenge the sit e right now , lol. :D

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