NEXT GEN: How Id (DOOM) Lost its Crown

[-Vormav-]

Just going to have a little shot in the dark here, just a crazy little idea as to why Doom 3 might not be the hottest FPS in the world. There were how many competing FPS games when Doom and Wolfenstein came out? There are how many competing FPS games today? :shrug:

[Shaderhacker]

Just going to have a little shot in the dark here, just a crazy little idea as to why Doom 3 might not be the hottest FPS in the world. There were how many competing FPS games when Doom and Wolfenstein came out? There are how many competing FPS games today? :shrug:

Agreed. There are way too many FPS that they are oversaturating the market. With lack of a story for any of them, well....

-M

[rebo]

Doom was great because it was frantic action at its best, doom 3 had none of the qualities of Doom/Doom2 apart from some boss set pieces. I've played Serious Sam more than ive played doom3 :/.

[erilaz]

Half life 2 was the only decent FPS I've played in a long time. Doom was okay, but it was merely a "shoot n' shoot" game, which can be fun when you want to blow off some steam.

I still think it's a testament to Carmack that he is such an advocate of openSource gaming development.

[Peddy]

that and the average computer couldnt run it. my computer of the time of doom3s release couldnt handle it, and im an avid gamer. im just not an avid income earner.
also, pitted against half-life 2, it had nothing.

[heavyness]

the main problem with ID games is that the technology evolves, but the gameplay itself doesn't.

[Golloween]

"But one day, the industry changed. The consumer changed. It’s hard to put one’s finger on it. Maybe it was Counter-Strike. Maybe Unreal Tournament."
For me, it was definitely Half-Life.

[Lunatique]

Back around 2000, I had a brief but dramatic correspondence with Paul Steed, the then famed modeller at id. I had sent him an email lamenting the loss of id's crown to the newcomers like Valve (Half-Life/Counter Strike) and Epic (UT). I had encouraged him, saying that id will be able to reclaim the crown if they just sat down and rethought their design philosophy. What I got in return was an angry and dismissive email from Steed, who basically said that I was delusional, spewing crap, and have no idea what I'm talking about. He maintainted that id is king and will always be, and everyone else, while deserving of their success, will never be able to challenge id. He then concluded that id employees are sipping champaign, floating in big swimming pools with hot babes, and driving sports cars--while outselling all the competition. Now, years later, passing time told a very different story.

[js33]

Well no one can stay at the top forever even if they think they can or still are. I bought Doom 3 and have hardly played it. It's an OK game but I dont play them much anymore.

Cheers,
JS

[Steve Green]

I think ID have been concerned with engine rather than the gameplay leaving it to others to create the gameplay. Quake's gameplay was poor compared to Duke Nukem until mod's appeared to make it more fun.

I remember reading an FAQ dismissing destroyable scenery in Quake saying that 'you shouldn't be shooting at walls'. I think that mindset of concentrating on the graphical frippery rather than what can make the game fun is really hampering them.

Doom 3 doesn't even have the many enemies that made Doom 2 mindless fun - it's gameplay is so basic it's just tediously repetitive after a short while.

I haven't seen ID release anything since Doom 2 that has changed my opinion.

- Steve

[white dragon]

Doom 3 wasn't bad... but nor was it good. You can put this down to games such as Half Life coming out around the same time, but at the end of the day you can't get away from the fact that Doom 3 is just not that fun to play. It's dark claustrophobic setting helps build an atmosphere of dread and depression for the player, but at the same time it's constant use of this means that it just becomes boring. Squeezing down yet another dark corridor and coming into an open room. But wait! there's no monster inside the room! Do you think that if you make it into the room that suddenly something will spawn behind you? Well, what do you know!

Half Life introduced a series of set pieces that divided up the game and kept you interested. Think back to driving your little boat away, or getting in that jeep, or using the crane... Doom had none of this and suffered as a result.

All environments looked very much the same, apart from the Hell levels granted, but they even played the same. If they could have pulled off the sense of free roaming that Far Cry gave us then maybe it could have been something special?

Doom also hit the shelves about a year after it was meant to, so all the giant leaps it promised just weren't that giant anymore. And then they released the add on pack, which wasn't bad either, but they charged full price for it which was just a joke!

I mean no ill will towards id, I think those guys are fantastic, and people have such a fond memory of the doom series that coming out with a new one now was never going to live up to everyone's expectations.

[Lunatique]

I think generally speaking, id doesn't have any notable design talent in the company. Carmack is a programmer, Adrian is an artist, and the other guys are either programmers or artists. Valve works with a writer--someone who knows how to create and immerse the player in captivating worlds that resonates a sense of reality, both emotional and visual, and that, is really the key to their success. If they didn't have that emphasis on storytelling, no amount of their source engine eye-candy would've propelled Half-Life 2 to such critical acclaim. The first Half-Life even had crappy technology for its time--yet it still won the hearts of critics and gamers alike, taking the honor of "Best Game Ever Made" given by many sources.

Carmack is known to be tech-driven, and he's never shown any interest in storytelling. So why are we surprised Doom 3 turned out the way it did? With that said, I did enjoy Doom 3 for its atmosphere and action though, but the design and writing for the game were really mediocre. Makes me wonder why AAA game developers don't spend the time and money to get real writers to tell a compelling story. I guess we can ask the same question of Hollywood. Why spend hundreds and millions of dollars, but shoot the film from a crappy screenplay that only middle school children would appreciate?

[percydaman]

You guys all have good points. In fact as I read the quote from the first post, I pretty much thought all the same stuff, so I wont repost what has already been said. But I will say, that the reason doom3 sucked is soooo incredibly obvious, that I question why a reporter (or whoever he is) who writes about this stuff, couldn't see it, or at least chose to not include it in his piece. Well before I say that, lemme go and actually read the entire story.

[CGmonkey]

It's a matter of opinion.

[ThomasMahler]

I'd quote Lunatiques last post for agreement, if it wouldn't be that long... :D

It just isn't enough to push the limits of what can be done in real-time graphics anymore - without developing anything else further - when actually the part that sells a game is it's gameplay/story, stuff like that. As Luna already mentioned, that's why Half-Life rocks and Doom lost it's glory.

Videogames have grown into serious entertainment and delivering ridiculous storylines and design will eventually come back to bite you, no matter how great the engine is that you can come up with.

[JeroenDStout]

Why spend hundreds and millions of dollars, but shoot the film from a crappy screenplay that only middle school children would appreciate?
Quite basically because the market is middle school children and people who don't like anything above the level of middle school children, I guess. I preferred it when the market were the geeks, the stakes were high, the games were "16 COLOURS! WOWWWW!"-style and, quite frankly, when gameplay was a more suitable area to advance in as graphics were expensive.

Ha, I almost wrote something about middle school, but I just left there and remembering the people on it I would agree with you :D

[Mudvin]

Doom3 got _very_ graphically impressive and stable engine, and lack of any story, they also did mistake with all this darkness and flashlight. :(
HL2 got only few decent moments in sinlge player, unlike it's predecessor, HL1, not talking that this "game of the year" is buggy as hell - HL2DM throw GPF's almost every round - and then half of server just freezes, and dropped by timeouts.

And, i'm still thinking that dynamics in Doom3 is much more like natural body, unlike all these UT/HL2/etc.

Again - imagery of Doom3 is simply stunning, there's no game ever close to Doom3's quality. Maybe only videos of new UT, but it's doesn't released yet, and planned only to 2006. Will see.

[alejito]

I don't think the lack of a story behind the game is the reason for its failure. I mean, Doom 2 was completely hollow in terms of story-telling (yeah well you killed all the aliens but a dimensional gate appeared and guess what came through it ... more demons!) and even so the game was great. Doom/doom2 is probably the game i have played more in my life, i could just finish it and then start again and again ... even 10 years later i'm playing now a remake version of doom for n64 just because it has some new levels developed by midway =)

It's like if they release now a new tetris that is a complete failure and people say "the problem is that they should have added a complex and interesting story to it" ....

[JeroenDStout]

HL2 got only few decent moments in sinlge player, unlike it's predecessor, HL1, not talking that this "game of the year" is buggy as hell - HL2DM throw GPF's almost every round - and then half of server just freezes, and dropped by timeouts.
It's odd, there's a lot of people who never ran into problems with HL²...but I guess that's technical advance for you, things just get more prone to errors.

Again - imagery of Doom3 is simply stunning, there's no game ever close to Doom3's quality. Maybe only videos of new UT, but it's doesn't released yet, and planned only to 2006. Will see.
Doing a google between Doom3 and HL² I find HL better visual quality. Technically, perhaps not, but visually, for sure.

[Laa-Yosh]

Talking about Doom3's failure is funny, knowing that the game has sold very well (it might still be on the Top 20 list, it certainly stayed there for a long time), and that id makes a far larger profit on its games compared to other studios that aren't self-financed.

HL2 on the other hand had such a huge budget that it might not be making any profit yet. AFAIK it sold ~1.8 million in retail so far, and about as much through Steam and the ATI bundle deal.

[Lunatique]

I don't think anyone thinks that D3 is a financial failure. I think people meant that it did not live up to expectations and didn't really address the evolution of games in terms of design.

[Aegis Prime]

Ultimately it's all rather subjective - I happened to love Doom3 - I loved Half Life 2 as well but for different reasons - D3 scared the crap out of me - it was a genuinely terrifying experience - haven't been that scared since Lucafilm's Rescue on Fractalus for the C64 (for those with particularly long memories). Sure, D3 has its faults (the paper-thin story admittedly being one of them) but boy, was it dripping in atmosphere, more so than any other horror-themed game I'd played up until that point.

Half Life 2 on the other hand, had great action, a compelling story and some truly creepy moments but nothing even close to the feeling of claustrophobia and dread in Doom3 - that said, in terms of uh... "Raising the bar", HL2 had it in spades and ultimately, I would rather play more games like HL2 than like D3. HL2's big score was in creating a truly cinematic story that the player became an integral part of.

In terms of visuals, I like them both - again for different reasons - HL2 has moments when it looks genuinely real thanks to the use of great photographic textures, inspired lighting and amazing DX9 trickery (the water is phenomenal) - D3 is much more stylized - there's very few (if any) photographic textures and it all pretty much looks hand painted. The palette is a lot more subdued and gloomy making a game which is less vibrant than HL2 but equally effective in terms of the atmosphere it's designed to create. One little point about the complexity of the visual trickery at play here - zoom in on a corpse on D3 and then do the same on a corpse in HL2 - the use of normal mapping in D3 is incredible and completely blows away anything in HL2.

Anyway, you want the real truth? Resident Evil 4 on the GameCube owns them both - D3 is a great game, HL2 is a classic but RE4 is just un****ingbelievable :eek:

[Solothores]

Agree, Resident Evil 4 really is a masterpiece! :thumbsup:

[white dragon]

Yes, have to agree, Resident Evil 4 is a perfect example of having both amazing visuals AND compelling game play, it's nice to know it cane be done. I think the reason that game stands out so much is that it's so rare that someone can get the balance between the two.

[pthomas72]

Who Farted?!

[Spater]

well, it looks like google has an opinion on the issue
[/url][url="http://img326.imageshack.us/my.php?image=googlefight0tg.jpg"]http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/1020/googlefight0tg.th.jpg (http://img326.imageshack.us/my.php?image=googlefight0tg.jpg)

[OamadeusO]

What let Doom3 down for me was this simple fact.
It's not fun to play.

D1 & D3 where good honest blasters, hoards of demons screaming towards you.

D3 just felt like a graphics card advert. Technicaly great but no soul.

Take a game like Rez for example, very basic graphics but great fun to play.

id and and unreal have both to me be mesmerised by the graphics and not enough thought put into making it fun. They should look at someone like Ubisoft.

[JasonA]

I was very disappointed by doom3, but I guess my tastes have evolved since 1994 :) I agree with the previous posts about the tedious repetitive, story-less game play. I bought Far Cry instead, and found it much more enjoyable.

I guess it didn't help much that the doom3 demo ran like crap on my pc (ie 10 fps). I was a bit surprised by that actually, because Far Cry ran really, really well on my machine (like 30-40 fps). Must have been a grpahics card incompatibility or something... Most people had troubles running Far Cry.

[hano]

Doom also hit the shelves about a year after it was meant to, so all the giant leaps it promised just weren't that giant anymore. And then they released the add on pack, which wasn't bad either, but they charged full price for it which was just a joke!



On one hand, if you work all the bugs out of a game so that at the release you have very smooth game play you've taken too long and the technology isn't 'fresh'.

But if you release a game so that the graphics are 'fresh' then you've got people bitching (re: BF2 forums) about having to upgrade hardware, gameplay bugs, etc.....

And all the while I read that game producers work their coders/modelers/mappers like slaves.

I find all of it very comical. *laugh*

[cookepuss]

But one day, the industry changed. The consumer changed. It’s hard to put one’s finger on it.
No it's not. id stopped producing original games a long time ago, merely rehashing old concepts and designs title after title. The closest the came was with Quake 3. Even then, that was just an expansion on an old concept. Seemingly, id's design method has revolved around packaging yesterday's ideas with tomorrow's technology. id stopped being a game developer long ago, opting to focus more on technology over innovative gameplay. I fail to see how Doom 3's gameplay is any more innovative than that of the old DOS Wolfenstein 3D.

[white dragon]

Yes but the problem people are bitching about on the BF2 forums IS the upgrade! The magic one that makes all the servers vanish. :)

But I think the problem with Doom3 is as many people have said, it just isn't fun. You can take ages on the graphics, you can hold back release to iron out the bugs, but if the game is dull... what's the point?

Far Cry pretty much came out of nowhere and brought about the next generation of fps. The same way when Halo originally came out it raised the standard for console games. The hype behind Doom promised this, but just fell a bit flat. I guess the answer is to just get a decent story, some good level designers and sit down and get on with it. If Ubisoft can do it time and time again, why can't id?

[BRUTICUS]

Doom 3 was quite fun for me, I just wish it could handle more people in multiplayer and also had more easily editable characters that you could add and have users choose their own characters.

Half-Life 2 looks great but the story and gameplay to me is a bit boring, trying too hard to be realistic. I'm more looking forward to Quake 4.

[Brettzies]

I have to say, I really enjoyed playing Doom3. Maybe it was just blasting away with the shotgun, or just looking at the pretty and yet disturbing graphics at 1600x1200? Of course, I was never able to play Doom1 or 2 because I didn't have the money when I was in college. I did play the free demo for hours though!

Is Doom3 a good game? I don't know, I went through it 3 times, mainly for the graphical splendor, but only played HL-2 once. Both are pretty games with nice moments. Honestly though, I think HALO was the best FPS I've played in years, the graphics were sorta outdated and the levels were super repetative in parts, but damn was it fun and I like the little marine story.

[c-g]

the main problem with ID games is that the technology evolves, but the gameplay itself doesn't.

You mean people don't think futuristic space marines going up against demons is a new hot idea? :)

Maybe they should have gone with a fat caveman vs. an army of some sort of terminator-like robots.. Those ideas mesh well too.

[JMcWilliams]

HL2 and Doom pale in comparison to games like Thief, Deus Ex & Outcast... in terms of story and atmosphere at least. I still don't think HL2 was groundbreaking as a lot of people make out in the gameplay sense. (IMHO)

[SheepFactory]

you guys gotta give credit to ID for some design wonders like not being able to shoot while holding the flashlight , that was a good one!


I second the resident evil 4 post , that game is the perfect blend of amazing story , amazing visuals and amazing gameplay. Same goes for metal gear 3 snake eater.

[Roger Eberhart]

I think Penny Arade said it all in these two strips:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2003-09-24

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2002-05-24&res=l

Those guys are brilliant.

[Geta-Ve]

Meh... I'll tell ya, I played both HL2 and Doom3 and to be honest HL2 is the only game I have actually played through till the end in quite a long time... was it the story? no not really, in my opinion HL2's story sucked big time, actually I fail to see any story at all.. What made me play hl2 till the end was the gameplay.. it was just really fun to play. MAINLY because of the grav gun, and d0g... I couldn't get enough of d0g, simply the coolest character ever made.

Also what helped in HL2 was the music, I mean the music really got you going, when those guys dropped from the top on er.. drop lines with their machine guns blasting and the music starts really pumping that was freaking fun, that REALLY got you into it.

HL2 would be nothing without it's little tricks to keep you going. Grav gun, Antlions, super grav gun, vehicles, etc.. which is not entirely a bad thing, quite good actually. but it made up for the lack of story.

Also one of the best parts in HL2 was the city fight against the tri pods, that was a true great moment, where you and the rebels or what not are just running through the streets shooting out your bazookas and stuff, it was pretty damn sweet to see 3 or 4 missiles coming from the roof tops and building windows all going towards the tripods, made you really feel like you were part of something..not just the one man army crap alot of games pull.

So.. Doom3.. I played that for about an hour and got too scared to keep playing haha. As much as I love getting scared (and I do) that is not why I play games. Doom3 wasnt fun. I dont know about it's story so I wont go there. but it's game play wasn't fun at all. Turn on the lights and the game blows big time. (in game lights that is) if they had of taken a more.. openness style game play to the game i think it would have worked better. I mean really, it is an invasion for crying out loud.

Though something else that sort of put a bias towards the game was that I have read the doom books, which in my opinion are far better than any doom game or movie ever will be. Those books are just so damn fun to read and so inovative, they really keep you guessing.. I love the books so freaking much haha. I would have liked to see a story very similar to that.. similar characters etc... (the movie will be such a disapointment)

anyways.. doom3 sucked because the gameplay blows wrenches. the end.

[Pavlovich]

Doing a google between Doom3 and HL² I find HL better visual quality. Technically, perhaps not, but visually, for sure.

you 'did a google'? hahahah are you KIDDING me? this statement is wrong for all sorts of reasons. thanks for the nice after-lunch chuckle, though

[JeroenDStout]

you 'did a google'? hahahah are you KIDDING me? this statement is wrong for all sorts of reasons. thanks for the nice after-lunch chuckle, though
I am, actually, not kidding, but I'm glad you had a nice laugh about it in a sarcastic way :)

Doom 3 is all pretty nice with it's shaders etc., but when comparing it with HL² Doom 3 is just one big hallway with the occasional exterior. Wait, what's that - oh, it's another blood soaked piece of wall! Wow, what's that decal - is it blood?
Technically Doom 3 is superior, but HL² looked a lot better and was much more varied as the endless corridors and monotonous graphics of Doom 3.

Actually, I can't see why the verb 'google' makes you laugh that much, it's pretty accepted these days.

Meh... I'll tell ya, I played both HL2 and Doom3 and to be honest HL2 is the only game I have actually played through till the end in quite a long time... was it the story? no not really, in my opinion HL2's story sucked big time, actually I fail to see any story at all.. What made me play hl2 till the end was the gameplay.. it was just really fun to play. MAINLY because of the grav gun, and d0g... I couldn't get enough of d0g, simply the coolest character ever made.

Also what helped in HL2 was the music, I mean the music really got you going, when those guys dropped from the top on er.. drop lines with their machine guns blasting and the music starts really pumping that was freaking fun, that REALLY got you into it.
Funny, I loved HL²'s story as I'm more of the guy who wants to know nothing about what actually is going on and just grasp whatever is going on. The inventions every time a format got dull were absolutely great, though. Personaly the ant lions were my favorite 'moment', I didn't like Dog that much for reasons unknown (as everybody just can't stop liking dog, apparently).

Though I have to say the music was the worst part of the game to me, it soundes sub-par - but it was in the style of Half-Life's music.

[Geta-Ve]

you 'did a google'? hahahah are you KIDDING me? this statement is wrong for all sorts of reasons. thanks for the nice after-lunch chuckle, though

Reason being??

[Pavlovich]

it's funny because you're giving me a review of technological and visual prowess of a game based on some google images. come on, guy. :)

[JeroenDStout]

it's funny because you're giving me a review of technological and visual prowess of a game based on some google images. come on, guy. :)
Well, I'd lie if I said I had only google'd it ;) I read more about it and saw ingame-footage, etc., I attempt to know a bit of the technology which makes such games, just so I can define which game is superior in what region. But for the visual quality I had to google images (and ended up on Gamespot), I don't have Doom 3 because I never liked the looks of it. It's obviously a matter of taste as well, but near to all the Doom 3 screenshots where-ever are monotonous and, to me, dull-looking, which I think HL² doesn't. Could be me and my dislike of endless corridors and endless "oh so scary"-monsters.

[shuggie]

I don't think there is any doubt that Doom 3 was more advanced technolgically as far as gfx are concerned (something which may change as stuff like HDRI as other features are added to source) but I think the art direction is stronger in HL2, there is more variety in space lighting and mood, so for me HL2 was a better looker than Doom 3.

[rebb]

Personally, i think Counter-Strike is the worst that could have happened to the Genre.

Everyone seems to be eager doing Realism Stuff because they think thats what "sold" Counter-Strike ( and maybe it is ).

That Process has kinda worn on the amount of interestingly themed Games in the recent Past. But theres still Hope..

Right now im much looking forward to Games like Prey, Serious Sam 3 or *GASP* Duke Nukem Forever :D

[DanSilverman]

I personally believe that id could care less about the games they have been developing ever since Quake or so. It seems the bulk of their money is being made from licensing their engine to other developers who can then say, "This game was made with the Doom3 engine!" The fact that DOOM3 (and the previous Doom and Quake titles) sold well is only icing on the cake, so to speak.

[Steve Green]

I think they might have more luck if they can show that their engine can do more than limited number of characters and enclosed spaces.

There's Quake-Enemy Territory and Quake IV coming out - so we'll see how they deal with something other than Doom 3 environments and number of characters.

- Steve

[Bentagon]

Right now im much looking forward to Games like Prey, Serious Sam 3 or *GASP* Duke Nukem Forever :DDNF. That's the game I'm waiting for. Even in the now outdated video that was shown at E3 a few years ago you could see this game is gonna be FUN - if it ever gets released. And that's what it's all about.

- Benjamin

[Laa-Yosh]

Doom3 actually had some amazing looking enviroments, like the whole Hell part, the excavation site, and some engineering rooms in the lower parts of the base. And the part where you're escorting the small battle droid in darkness is so totally Aliens with the occasional flashing light from the guns and explosions, the monsters, sounds... that part really kicked ass ;)

HL2 is a masterpiece visually, for the most part. But the gameplay really lacked, lots of bad decisions and lack of new stuff. Outcast has really been a far better game, too bad they've collapsed during the sequel's development...

[kickrocks]

Personally, i think Counter-Strike is the worst that could have happened to the Genre.
*shakes his head and sighs*

[JeroenDStout]

Personally, i think Counter-Strike is the worst that could have happened to the Genre.

Effects of CounterStrike:

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/images/comics/20030618.jpg

And the appropriate Counter-Measures:

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/images/comics/20030621.jpg

[BaronImpossible]

I agree with the OP quote. Doom 3 is not Doom. It makes you wonder if the programmers actually played the early Dooms. I did perserve with Doom 3, I really did, but after 4 or 5 hours I'd had enough. It's going on Ebay at the weekend. Everything that made the early Dooms great has been taken out and replaced with... replaced with... well, nothing really.

On that last point, one thing I believe all games programmers should understand is this ~

darkness != scary
darkness = very, very annoying

[DaJuice]

Man, the problem with Doom3 is not the story, but the fact that they completely compromised on the gameplay.
They let the technology dictate the direction of the game design, but isn't it supposed to be the other way around? You design a game and then hopefully your tech can meet the requirements. Instead, id have to work with whatever Carmack gives them. They can't go up to him and be like: "The design document calls for an engine that's able to display a large number of enemies on screen, as well as being able to render vast landscapes, etc etc. Please enhance/modify whatever we have right now to be able to do this."

I think if id had done it "right", they would have been able to meet expectations for a next-gen Doom game. They certainly have the talent, but unfortunately, they have no ****ing vision. None at all! The only reason I care about id to begin with is that I loved the original Doom games so much (and quake to a lesser extent), and was itching to relive the experience in its new high-tech 3d glory. But alas, it was not meant to be. :sad:

[Mike.H]

There's Quake-Enemy Territory and Quake IV coming out - so we'll see how they deal with something other than Doom 3 environments and number of characters.

- Steve

amen and im looking forward to both, Id games has never been about the story, it´s about the engines, and thanks to the engines multiplayer has always been a feast in any quake game and doom was great because it was so far out for it´s time.

Doom3 delivered what it was supposed to do, a new engine, redoing the old doom game but with a different aproach was just the icing on the cake to get the new engine out the door.

Q4 and quake wars will be the first real tests to see if the doom3 engine can deliver great single and multiplayer with more then 4 ppl :) and so far they look real good to.

[Ninjas]

Carmack went on record saying he didn't want to make Doom 3. In fact, I can't remember where I read it but he wanted to make some sort of net based, interactivty thing, not even a game (He got out-voted by the other members of Id). I don't think he even progammed the AI. Also I have to give him props for trying to get the X-Prize.

[ambient-whisper]

HL2 and Doom pale in comparison to games like Thief, Deus Ex & Outcast... in terms of story and atmosphere at least. I still don't think HL2 was groundbreaking as a lot of people make out in the gameplay sense. (IMHO)

too bad there wont be an outcast 2 :(. such a great bloody game. most of todays games pale soo hard in comparison.

[richcz3]

Doom 3's real success will be based on its licensing.
So I am betting there is allot riding on Quake 4 and Ritual needs to pull a rabbit out of the dark. The cruelest irony in this story is if Unreal 3 steals Quake 4's thunder like Unreal Tournament did Quake 3. Something has to give and Id doesn't have much laurels to rest on.

[JMcWilliams]

too bad there wont be an outcast 2 :(. such a great bloody game. most of todays games pale soo hard in comparison.

Agreed, in fact I still play it every now and again and I still think it looks great, despite the blocky voxels. They did a lot of things right with that game. :D

[augustus]

Q4 and quake wars will be the first real tests to see if the doom3 engine can deliver great single and multiplayer with more then 4 ppl :) and so far they look real good to.

Didn't "The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay" use Doom 3 engine too? (It's a great game btw.)

[Solothores]

nope if I remember right, starbreeze used its own engine :)

Cheers
Solo

[Herehear]

D3 was designed as horror FPS, i dont know of any better horror FPS for PC, so the game for me is success.

How many of you who post in this thread have played(finished) DOOM 3: Resurrection of Evil?
Have you seen the testmaps in D3 (the 1000 bricks physics sim, or the 100 imps room)?

The only thing ID didnt do right was that it it released the game a few months earlier than it should (the release of GF6) It was just ahead of its time for the current hardware, so ID had to do alot of compromises, and some minor UI things like control of anysotropic filtering (deafult is 8 which cripples older videocards) and real gamma slider (r_gamma console command which realy changes gama)

You can compare HL with Farcry but not with D3, they are different.

[Emmanuel]

Outcast rules supreme forever.The music, the visuals, Cutter's comments....everything is just so immersive.Virtually no bugs.

[JMcWilliams]

Outcast rules supreme forever.The music, the visuals, Cutter's comments....everything is just so immersive.Virtually no bugs.

Actually that brings up another thing that a lot of games really do badly… music. Ever played Little Big Adventure? Another great game with music that blows away most games today and that was ’94.

Far too many sound like they were thrown together by someone who thinks putting some dance loops together in fruity loops makes for a good soundtrack. For these kind of games you need a composer who has a clue about drama. There is a reason why Spielberg & Lucas always use John Williams ;)

[white dragon]

I think the two biggest things that annoyed me about Doom 3 were crimes that many other games have committed before and since. Number one being monsters that will just appear out of nowhere, and in a rather predictable way (big empty room, take a few steps forwards then something will spawn behind you). And number two : vanishing corpses.

[Mudvin]

Well, to be clear: none of the modern games are even close to "old" games like System Shock1/2 or HL1. System Shock has not that good graphics at all, but storyline was simply intriguing, mixing RPG/FPS/Thriller/Detective all in one game. :eek:

I can't recall similar game, released in last 3 years. I'm playing in HL2 only because i'm already bored with RTCW:Enemy Territory(although it's good, but playing in it more 2 years is really boring). Valve almost buried the game of the games - "Team Fortress", which i was played for 4 years, though i can't say it shines with brilliant graphics, but it has best gameplay and feature set i've ever seen.

Doom3 is really scaring, but it's not interesting to play the game which only scares you. And it's fatal id's mistake.

PS: Considering HL2 quality - take a visit to Steam forums, and look at dozens of ppl, screaming because of unfixed bugs, or just play HL2DM a bit.

PPS: Doing a google between Doom3 and HL² I find HL better visual quality. Technically, perhaps not, but visually, for sure.
What do you mean "doing a google to find the best"? It's like asking 14-years old teenager who simply doesn't got enough knowledge and trained eye to judge good and bad picture -
"Where these 'tripods' comes from, into War of the worlds movie"? Do you know what he'll answer you? Right, "These are striders from HL2, game of the year". I think Herbert Wells turning in it's grave upside down like juice sueezer right now. :banghead:

Some time ago i'm personally created visual comparison of Doom3 vs HL2 on the web, unfortunately hosting is down now, i will try to restore it for you, and post here.

[lovisx]

I loved Doom 3 as well, but I'm not as much a game freak as some of you. I like the feeling that I get when I play games, and I feel like I'm there.

I felt that the most with system shock 2 (this was one scarey game) and zelda ocarina of time.
Half Life 2 as well braught that feeling, especially at the beginning.

[richcz3]

There are maybe three to four genuine horror moments in Doom3. They were scripted, but they definately put my nerves on notice. Had Id used more of those sequences instead of spawning monsters behind the player, I would have finished the game. Unfortunately 3/4 of the way through predictability set in and the Wow factor was replaced by frustration.

[Mudvin]

Yeah, the most impressive moments in HL2 imho is the start of the game, and episode at the end - this cinematic fly through the Citadel.

But i was not impressed at all with these hour and half water/buggy chases...pfff...

[Ultimatebadass]

I didn't like Doom3's gameplay all that much because it's too damn long and repetative as hell, but the graphics and general design of all enviroment elements (inside the mars base) was awesome in my opinion.

What I wish for is a System Shock 3 on the Doom 3 engine (yeah, like that will ever happen ;) ) The engine would be perfect for the next System Shock... if only Looking Glass didn't go under a couple of years back...

[SheepFactory]

i'd settle for system shock 3 on a system shock 2 engine even. That game rocked so much , i dont remember playing a game with such a nice story and gameplay ever since i played system shock 2.

[ThirdEye]

Waiting for Unreal engine 3... mumble mumble

[richcz3]

Waiting for Unreal engine 3... mumble mumbleUnless the Unreal 3 engine is smoke and mirrors and a bear to run, Epic looks to handily unseat Id as the licensed engine of choice.

[JeroenDStout]

PS: Considering HL2 quality - take a visit to Steam forums, and look at dozens of ppl, screaming because of unfixed bugs, or just play HL2DM a bit. Hmm, I only have one bug in HL2DM and that occurs every week or so, which is beyond any level of annoyance with me. Perhaps I'm lucky, perhaps you hear the shouters and assume that's all of 'm :shrug: I don't know. It just works for me.

PPS:
What do you mean "doing a google to find the best"? It's like asking 14-years old teenager who simply doesn't got enough knowledge and trained eye to judge good and bad picture.Actually, it's more like asking a l33t about where to find screenshots from the games and comparing what I see on them.. Asking google which is better isn't even asking a 14-year-old, as quite frankly I knew a 14-year-old with a good eye :rolleyes: Show some respect for 14-year-olds, I pledge.

Actually that brings up another thing that a lot of games really do badly… music. Ever played Little Big Adventure? Another great game with music that blows away most games today and that was ’94. Never heard of that, but I love games like Zork Nemesis for the music of them - most stuff made my Mark Morgan is great, he did Sacrifice too.

[Boone]

I'm sure this Steve Bowler is a nice chap an'all, but his review or rant is "My word is law".

Doom3 has had 50/50 reviews, and so many can claim the opposite to "this game sucks!" - he should consider that before alienating half his readership. Also, Doom3 has made its money and (but do correct me if I am wrong) is a success. To say Id needs to "Deliver" is a little much...

Also, Mr Bowler overlooks the fact that the original Doom was pretty much a first in 3D games - Doom3 could never be anything but an evolution. Raving about Halo and HL2 etc isn't what I would call a strong argument that Id is behind - they weren't exactly any more progressive than Doom3.

[Steve Green]

I'd have to disagree that HL2 was no more of a progress than Doom 3, the physics, interaction with the scenery, AI, story, vehicles and variety made it head and shoulders above Doom IMHO.

HL2 and Far Cry have been the most fun single player FPS for me recently.

- Steve

[heavyness]

Unless the Unreal 3 engine is smoke and mirrors and a bear to run, Epic looks to handily unseat Id as the licensed engine of choice.

lots of games use the Unreal Engine, just not all FPS PC games. Splinter Cell uses a modified version and Lineage II, XIII, and Americas Army use the engine too [to name some].

Microsoft already names the Unreal 3 Engine as the official Microsoft Games Studios engine and Sony used it as their first interactive tech demo for the PS3.

http://www.epicgames.com/

me thinkin' Epic has already beat out ID

[leuey]

Quoted for Agreement. I loved Doom3 and the expansion. But c'mon. The AI, the human characters/facial animation/lip syncing/overall believability, cooperative fighting, and the vastly (VASTLY) superior physics in HL2 raised the bar far higher than interactive lighting and normal mapping.

-Greg



I'd have to disagree that HL2 was no more of a progress than Doom 3, the physics, interaction with the scenery, AI, story, vehicles and variety made it head and shoulders above Doom IMHO.

HL2 and Far Cry have been the most fun single player FPS for me recently.

- Steve

[Boone]

Re: Steve Green.

Thats fair enough. Its just that I bought HL2 on the promise of what you have suggested and was faced with a patience-testing installation, charactors who at times wouldn't get the **** out of my way, cutscenes that could not be skipped and a story line that dictated too much over the basic flow of the game itself.

The graphics and visuals were very well done and some good efforts in the voice acting department, but I really felt like I had been robbed of my £20( which I thought was a bargin at the time ). Everyone made out it was a revolutionary leap in FPS gaming and the best game ever, but I wanted to load up Doom3 for its no-nonsense action.

Doom3 wasn't perfect either. Sodding about with the flash-light was a tad tiring after awhile. Enemies with almost no weak-points became frustrating as well. But worst of all, you spent way too much time in a rather dull-looking military base and Hell itself was too short once you got there! But in the end, Doom3 has simple gameplay, great graphics, lashings of blood but most importantly - CHAINSAWS! :twisted:

Halo on the other hand seemed to be a reasonable balance between the two. A story that keeps the player involved but never over-whelming, simple-but-effective gameplay mechanics and well-balanced varitey. It still had the "I'm blocking the doorway - aren't I bloody annoying" syndrome, but not enough to pull your hair out! Nothing revolutionary here, but a well put together game.

[JeroenDStout]

Thats fair enough. Its just that I bought HL2 on the promise of what you have suggested and was faced with a patience-testing installation, charactors who at times wouldn't get the **** out of my way, cutscenes that could not be skipped and a story line that dictated too much over the basic flow of the game itself.
Note to yourself: don't buy games which base on plot in-game ;)

[TumikSmacker]

Id was always king?

I dont remember Quake 3 being better then Unreal Tournament... :D

[Iconoklast]

I do.

I can't stand the pace of unreal tournament, though I do think it's a good game. I don't like the weapons (too slow) and I didn't 'feel' the movement. And being mostly a multiplayer, deathmatch/capture the flag person, UT paled in comparison to Quake 3 in terms of enjoyment.

I think what Doom 3 failed in, is that even though the game itself is quite boring, normally ID come out with a fun multiplayer which is usually where most of the players go for ID games. Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3. All big 1v1, 4v4 tournament games. However with doom 3, due to it's poor capabilities with multiplayer, and just the general slow pace of the game, it didn't reach up to par with its predecessors that excelled in multiplayer mayhem.

[Mudvin]

as quite frankly I knew a 14-year-old with a good eye Show some respect for 14-year-olds, I pledge.

It should be very gifted kid, or maybe he just started art school at 6 years ;) Anyway, childs of this age doesn't have any experience to judge what's good and what's bad in the picture, personally i think that this feeling can be achieved only with very big experience. However at this age they dare to blame anything with such a level of self-assurance, that can't demostrate even 10 film critics ;)
Anyway, from my experience, i see no reason, why i should show some respect to them, sorry. ;)


me thinkin' Epic has already beat out ID

Epic will beat id, when they will release something before id, and id, in turn, will not answer in 2-3 years. Then we can say, that they're really beaten id. But for now Epic doesn't released any titles on new engine, so we can't be sure.

The AI, the human characters/facial animation/lip syncing/overall believability, cooperative fighting, and the vastly (VASTLY) superior physics in HL2 raised the bar far higher than interactive lighting and normal mapping.

AI? Which AI? Where in HL2 did you've seen any signs of that advanced AI?
Character animation - HL2 got nice animation, as well as Doom3. Sure, lip-syncing in HL2 is impressive.
What that "superior" in HL2 dynamics? I think that id's engine capable of exactly the same things that havoc do. Moreover - i like Doom3 body dynamics settings much more then UT's or HL2 settings, it's much more behave like real-life objects.
One of the mistakes id did - is that this dynamics engine was almost didn't used in game process. But i can't dare to say, that "HL2 got waaay superior dynamics engine". Btw, one of the frequent bugs in HL2 - is when dynamics "going crazy" - all the dynamic items starts jumping with no reason to it, or gets some crazy "rest" positions - like boxes staying on the corner on flat floor. Weapons doesn't respawn anymore, voila - server are screwed until restart.
And - i don't get, what do you mean under "cooperative fighting". All what i see, is that Valve buried "Team Fortress", reduced number of models and maps in CSS(comparing to CS 1.6), and created DM mod in few weeks after main release. Man, this is ridiculous - adding game features on the fly, using game owners as a testers, just because they can't plan their work.

ID did much more accurate job(like always), although i can't disagree that game was unfortunately not that succesful like it's predecessors.

[Mordalles]

all i have to say is that i just played through doom1 and doom2 for the 1st time last week, and theres not a lot of fps that is AS fun to play. d1 and d2 are just classics, and i wish games today had the same gameplay quality. i played hl2 but lost interest very quickly somewhere in the beginning of the game.

gameplay is what makes a game. and a lot of games are losing it.

[leuey]

Well, all I can say is that you are the only person I've ever seen say that Doom 3's physics are better or on par w/ HL's. I mean, the ONLY one. So you are quite alone in your thinking and I'm about as mainstream as you can get in agreeing with every magazine review, online review, user review, casual comment, orangutang sign language review, and dolphin squeek review out there.

Now, if you enjoyed the physics and AI in doom better - then more power to you. I can only assume that there's something wrong with your perceptual system. Probably not your fault, you may have been born that way.

I really likeed Doom 3 but I've had grenades bounce 20 feet back my way after tossing them (and blowing me up) - the physics aren't as good as HL's - even ID fidgets a little when talking about their physics in comparison to HL 2's.

In terms of AI and coopertive fighting I'm guessing you either have a different definition of AI and coperative fighting that every other person who has ever played the game, or you never made it past the first couple of levels.

I have no idea what bugs you're talking about - maybe you need to fix your computer or conform to the recommended system.

-Greg


I


AI? Which AI? Where in HL2 did you've seen any signs of that advanced AI?
Character animation - HL2 got nice animation, as well as Doom3. Sure, lip-syncing in HL2 is impressive.
What that "superior" in HL2 dynamics? I think that id's engine capable of exactly the same things that havoc do. Moreover - i like Doom3 body dynamics settings much more then UT's or HL2 settings, it's much more behave like real-life objects.
One of the mistakes id did - is that this dynamics engine was almost didn't used in game process. But i can't dare to say, that "HL2 got waaay superior dynamics engine". Btw, one of the frequent bugs in HL2 - is when dynamics "going crazy" - all the dynamic items starts jumping with no reason to it, or gets some crazy "rest" positions - like boxes staying on the corner on flat floor. Weapons doesn't respawn anymore, voila - server are screwed until restart.
.

[white dragon]

* stands next to leuey *

[Mudvin]

So you are quite alone in your thinking and I'm about as mainstream as you can get in agreeing with every magazine review, online review, user review

I don't care about all these reviews, since they maked this buggy hell named HL2 "the game of the year". People just doesn't see obvious things, why should i believe them?


I really likeed Doom 3 but I've had grenades bounce 20 feet back my way after tossing them (and blowing me up) - the physics aren't as good as HL's - even ID fidgets a little when talking about their physics in comparison to HL 2's.

Probably you've never been killed with some barrel you're just jumped on in HL2DM.


In terms of AI and coopertive fighting I'm guessing you either have a different definition of AI and coperative fighting that every other person who has ever played the game, or you never made it past the first couple of levels.

Excuse me. I didn't gave any definitions. I've just asked of where did you've seen that "advanced AI" in HL2. Can you provide few examples please?
Same with "cooperative fighting", because last game with good cooperative mode was "Serious Sam", and as far as i know, nobody ever beaten it in this field. Or what do you mean under "cooperative fighting"?


I have no idea what bugs you're talking about - maybe you need to fix your computer or conform to the recommended system.

Maybe you have to play little bit more, to see them. Anyway - want to see a demo? I'll try to record.

[leuey]

No, don't record a demo. I'm just giving you crap. I tend to play Counter Strike so HL2 DM may be all bugged out, but I haven't seen any in the single player. Just to clarify though, if these things you're seeing were 'obvious' then you wouldn't be the only one seeing them - kinda counter-definition there.

Anyway - to each his own. peace,

-Greg

[white dragon]

"I don't care about all these reviews, since they maked this buggy hell named HL2 "the game of the year". People just doesn't see obvious things, why should i believe them?"

It's all down to personal opinion at the end of the day, and if you prefer one over the other, that's great, at least you're liking one of them. However if everyone else is thinking differently, maybe these "obvious things" just aren't obvious?

"Excuse me. I didn't gave any definitions. I've just asked of where did you've seen that "advanced AI" in HL2. Can you provide few examples please?
Same with "cooperative fighting", because last game with good cooperative mode was "Serious Sam", and as far as i know, nobody ever beaten it in this field. Or what do you mean under "cooperative fighting"?"

The ending few levels have some excellent use of friendly AI, with your comrads using cover and providing supressive fire, well worth playing to. This is something else I was hoping for in Doom3, a big marine Vs hell spawn battle would have been excellent, rather than just being told what to do via video links. Halo & Halo 2 were both helped by having some excellent levels with marines fighting along side you.

[JeroenDStout]

Probably you've never been killed with some barrel you're just jumped on in HL2DM.
...that actually never happened to me, even though I was killed by a box once when I was experimenting with... well, when I was experimenting with what number of boxes would overload the physics engine. In actual game there are near to no physics errors that I encounter, at one point I played several hours each day DM (well, I was addicted, but I got pills now - and a white jacket) and there was only one map which had some physics errors which Valve released an update for.

As for the 'obvious' - thing is, obvious means "Easily perceived or understood". Ergo, if nobody notices it just accept that it's your opinion rather as 'something everybody should see'. I don't see it and I love HL², as well as a lot of other people, including a lot of reviewers.

[DaJuice]

all i have to say is that i just played through doom1 and doom2 for the 1st time last week, and theres not a lot of fps that is AS fun to play. d1 and d2 are just classics, and i wish games today had the same gameplay quality.

Yup. Quite frankly the original Dooms own D3 in the fun department (which is my major beef with it). Not to mention some of the amazing wads that have come out, which is where the real lifeblood of the games has been. Try playing wads like Equinox or Alien Vendetta where you may have upwards of 700 enemies in a single map. Now that shit is epic. :buttrock:

If you're an fps fan, do yourself a favor: Get ahold of Doom2, download zdoom (an advanced port of the original doom engine), and get those two wads. :thumbsup:

[Mudvin]

However if everyone else is thinking differently, maybe these "obvious things" just aren't obvious?

It is. I'm pretty sure in things i've written here. All these bugs and glitches are happened to me last half of year, some of these - just on past week. If nobody else ever seen these bugs, then it just a sign of absence of any competence in this question, sorry.
You know, it's like the question, that was perfectly demonstrated in "Contact" movie: "if nobody believes you, then nothing actually was happened to you"? Right?


Ergo, if nobody notices it just accept that it's your opinion rather as 'something everybody should see'

Geez, why does everybody tells me, that "nobody ever seen this"? Guys, i told you - go, check steam forums, does even one of you did this? If you didn't - well, i'll do it for you:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=248425
This seems to occur every now and again, however, with the release of dm_steamlabs, it has occured much more than before. This problem causes the physics of all objects to completely mess up, respawning weapons fall through the floor, throw grenades go through walls, objects and floors. Objects seem to have a mind of their own as they bounce about randomly.
Currently the only fix is to restart the server, as the physics remain changed through map changes.
.DEM

They got even the demo of this bug.
Check this thread finally:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=248425

[Kabab]

Doom3 was a polished product.

You installed it you played it, it didn't crash.

HL2 on the other hand was not so polished..

They both had their merits i personally got borred of hl2 halfway through i dunno why it just didn't hold my attention (i loved hl1)..

D3 i actually played through i think the fear/suspense made me want more..

But really the winners this year in terms of games is easily World of Warcraft and Battlefield 2
now these are to extremly fun games.. Mind you both buggy as hell but fun to play :)

[BurrowingDuck]

It's a matter of opinion.


You are wise.

[Obraxis]

I bought Doom 3. I buy very few games because I mainly play free MODS for Half-Life 1, like Natural-Selection and Counter-Strike.

I played Doom 3 for about the same time it took to install. About 15-20 mins. I got very bored. Infact, it can be summed up in a BASIC program:

10 Use flashlight
20 Make Zombie jump at you from dark
30 Use Flashlight
40 Check email for codes
50 Use Flashlight
60 Shoot at anything that moves
70 Go to 10

Artisticly and Engine-wsire they are both great. Ok, so everything looks grey. It's a metal building. But the story and level design was poor and everything felt scripted.

id needs another Quake 3 Arena type game or it's in trouble.

[Mudvin]

Almost every game could be described as:
10. locate an enemy.
20. shoot'em.
30. proceed further.

HL2 is not an exception, you know ;)

[Trenox]

It seems like this thread is only focus on id's achievements in singleplayer games like doom3. What i really admire about id is mainly the multiplayer games like quake3. This was where they were succesfull last, and the multiplayer scene is in no way as oversaturated as the singleplayer scene. - actuelly there is a huge empty void of truly competitive multiplayer games (no im not talking about games like BF2). But i guess you have to play quake3 alot before you can really appreciate the depth and skilldevelopment that the game offers.

Problem is that Carmack hated that players disabled his fancy gfx when playing competitive multiplayer so he basically veto'ed out the next game as multiplayer focused and went for the generic choice: Doom3.

Theres no way that id can keep being ahead technologically and i think that they are about to be aware of this. This is maybe a good thing so they can learn to get new and fresh ideas instead of repeating a franchise and only update technology. I have pretty high expectations for their games in the future and i hope they can rise to the challenge.

[Lunatique]

It's actually very important for us to support Steam. Sure, it had problems, but that was a significant step a developer took to experiment with getting around the publisher and survive on its own terms. The publisher is the number one reason why the game industry is suffering--they don't care about quality, nor do they care about the quality of life for the emplyees of the game industry. All they want is bigger, faster, and more units sold. They put developers through hell with impossible milestones and cutthroat terms for contracts, and if you don't comply, then you might as well quite the industry and find another career. If we support Valve in their implementation of Steam, we are essentially supporting the developers and giving the finger to the publishers--and I don't see why we wouldn't want that. If Steam becomes a worthy alternative for purchasing games, more companies would follow and eventually the publishers wouldn't be able to remain the all-controlling tyrants, and we'd see a lot more good games and a lot less unhappy game industry employees.

Mudvin - The important difference with HL2 is that besides the shooting and the moving onto the next location, you actually care about the characters in the game, and you actually are anxious to find out what happens next in the story. HL franchise has personality, an immersive and realistic world that intrigues you, and characters that you actually enjoy interacting with because they are not irrelevant. That's what a good writer does, and that's what the Doom franchise doesn't have.

[Iconoklast]

True! But Half-Life 1 multiplayer blew the fattest... I can't stand playing single player games, they're good fun for a few minutes, but I personally don't enjoy them. Multiplayer on the other hand, was much, much more enjoyable. Doom/Quake both had enjoyable, fast paced multiplayer..
To each their own though.

That's what a good writer does, and that's what the Doom franchise doesn't have.

[Lunatique]

I can't stand playing single player games, they're good fun for a few minutes, but I personally don't enjoy them.

So you're one of those gamers that don't care about having a great story that transports you to another world, where you interact with interesting characters you could care about, and go to places of imaginative wonders? I've heard about people like you, now I've actually met one. :D

For me, a fun game that requires your reflex and mental capacity for strategy is fine and all that, but that's really not all that different from playing chess or playing ping pong. What really makes video games wonderful is that they can immerse you in a different world--not in the same way as films do, but a world that you can actually be a part of and interact with. I don't know if you've ever played the great adventure games like The Longest Journey, Grim Fandango..etc, or the great RPG's like Knights of the Old Republic, Planescape: Torment..etc. If you haven't and don't have an interest in wonderful games with great stories and characters, then I guess there's nothing much to say except you are a very different type of person than I am.

See, HL and HL2 are a very interesting type of game, where although they are First Person Shooters, they are also very adventure heavy in atmosphere and aura. That is why a website like Just Adventures would review a game like HL2 and give it such high marks. That's unheard of for adventure game fans.

[Iconoklast]

I understand the attraction, and it's basically like reading a good book, except you're part of it, but for me in terms of enjoying the gaming experience, I'm more of a multiplayer person. Quake 1 single player wasn't very thrilling and I really didn't even read the ending stories after completing an episode, but playing quakeworld, I don't think I've had more fun playing any other game.

To be honest, I prefer to watch someone play a single player game, than play it myself. In fact, I really enjoy that. I used to watch my brother play Resident Evil ages ago, but whenever he'd ask me to play, I never really wanted to and just preferred to watch.
In the end though, I'm not saying hl1/2 sucked in anyway, they're both amazing games in their own right, but I, myself, have never been intruiged to play them..

Having said that though, I play World of Warcraft, and have been enjoying myself thoroughly, and that is quite the immersive game, although that could be due to the fact I play that with my girlfriend :)...

[Mudvin]

Mudvin - The important difference with HL2 is that besides the shooting and the moving onto the next location, you actually care about the characters in the game, and you actually are anxious to find out what happens next in the story. HL franchise has personality, an immersive and realistic world that intrigues you, and characters that you actually enjoy interacting with because they are not irrelevant. That's what a good writer does, and that's what the Doom franchise doesn't have.

Actually Doom3 has some storyline, but it's not that detailed as in HL2. Aaand storyline in HL2 are much weak then one in HL1, so i can't say that HL2 represents itself some great achievement in game industry.

I agree with you about the new generation of software delivery and support systems, the only thing i disagree - is that developers should support Steam. I think it's better to create and support some free standard for such things.

[Trenox]

Lunatique: Your point about games as primarily storydriven is true to only very few games. Torment is definitely one of my favorite experiences in gaming, but that doesnt mean that games with great gamemechanics and crappy story arent interesting (warcraft3, quake3 and so on).

I dont think that id games will ever suit your preference in gaming ;) - singleplayer or multiplayer..

Im not sure if better story's are the solution to make FPS games better. it was never really the strong point in this genre.

[DuttyFoot]

I dislike steam very much. It took quite a while to get everything up and running. I am used to installing a game and jumping right into it. I really hope steam dosen't become the norm for other games.

I played doom 3 when it came out and man i was disappointed. the graphics were good, and man did i get a good scare. but i got bored so quickly, that i just stopped playing. I love quake 2 and 3. doom 1 was awesome. doom 3 was a total let down for me. felt like i wasted my money.

Half life 2 on the other hand was awesome. i played hl1 so i had an idea to expect something good. i loved everything about hl2, other than having to install and setup that steam crap. i didn't encounter any bugs that you ppl are talking about, everything ran fine for me.

HL2 is sweet, one of my favorite parts of the game is when you are in the tunnel and the guards are above and the see you through the manhole and send burning barrels at you.
the other part i liked was when they start chasing you through the apartment building and you have to go on the roof to get away....that was a total rush....it has really immersive gameplay.

dont know if anyone else encountered this problme, maybe its just me but i couldn't play hl2 for long periods of time. after 2 to 3 hrs of playing i would start to feel dizzy...go figure

[cosmonaut]

dont know if anyone else encountered this problme, maybe its just me but i couldn't play hl2 for long periods of time. after 2 to 3 hrs of playing i would start to feel dizzy...go figure

Same thing happens to me after about 15 minutes of HL2. Don't have that problem with any other FPS I've played lately: Far Cry, BattleField 2, or Doom 3. Personally I thought Doom 3 was a great game. Sure its gameplay wasn't as fancy as HL2 but it was quite immersive, the graphics are amazing, and it scared the crap out of me. I still get a kick out of blowing demons away with that shotgun ... and I still think it's the engine to beat (at least until unreal 3). Can't wait for Prey and Quake 4.

[JeroenDStout]

Actually Doom3 has some storyline, but it's not that detailed as in HL2. Aaand storyline in HL2 are much weak then one in HL1, so i can't say that HL2 represents itself some great achievement in game industry.
I recently played HL1 and the story pretty much is weak. Accident, marines barge in, blackops barge in, there's aliens everywhere, you travel to a planet which makes no sense and kill a endboss which makes no sense whatsoever. The story was one of my major problems with HL1, actually, even though I realised in all this time the story grew weaker as more people used the idea of HL1. Nontheless, the story was barely explained to you in-game.
In HL² you are in the story, not just some background. I felt proud because people said "Dr. Freeman has returned!" and just somehow started to feel along with the oppressed people. When Eli Vance looked me straight in the eye and said "Gorden Freeman - let me take a look at you man - you haven't aged a day! How do you do it?!" I just suddenly realised that I am Gorden Freeman in the game, I actualy am a legend. The story was less clear in 2, perhaps, but the storylines were much, much more immersive.
HL-1 just was one big "waste processing facility B3" (just why do we have to process waste by introducing big stamping devices?) and had the occational radio chatter. HL-2 started with someone telling me not to drink the water - there is something in it that makes you forget. For me that was the signal of "this game's story is going to be great" after playing 5 minutes.

Nah, it's feeling, but Lunatique and I share the same taste, I guess. More story - I like adventuregames too :P (I even created one ;))

[Boone]

Re: Lunatique.

I dunno. A big story is most welcome in an RPG such as Knights of the Old Republic or Final Fantasy, but in a FPS?

I may be the minority, but I buy a FPS to massacre monsters with the finest weaponary mankind has to offer - not have a bloody chin-wag with them! :banghead:

I personally feel that HL2 would do well to add an RPG element and allow different paths as well as character growth. That way, it would have genuine depth.

EDIT: I just wanted to remind you all of Dark ForcesII: Jedi Knight. Just by adding the whole force element, you were more likely to play the game twice. I feel this is a good example of what I am getting at...

[JMcWilliams]

Re: Lunatique.

I dunno. A big story is most welcome in an RPG such as Knights of the Old Republic or Final Fantasy, but in a FPS?



no genre HAS to have anything as such, as long as there are elements that make up for anything that is missing. But I think a good story can in fact be in almost ANY type of game, and it doesn't have to be indepth and take away from your action. Frankly, most games do try to have a story, even most FPS games.... they just do a REALLY poor job a lot of the time. Hire some good writers you silly people! :D

[Ghostscape]

Just going to have a little shot in the dark here,...
I thought it was more because Doom 3's gameplay never evolved past taking a shot in the dark...ba dum bum.

[pearson]

The thing that I most remember of Doom 1, aside from the fact that it had variable height ceilings and non 90 degree corners (which was way beyond wolfenstein 3d), was the feeling of complete fear I felt playing it. The growl of imps in the next room would cause an adrenaline spike. I was afraid to play at night, in the dark (which I did anyway, of course).

With Doom 3, I know the gameplay is old, and the story is pretty thin, but it is the only game that's really scared me since the original. It's a great play experience for me, even though now, instead of hunting for the blue key, I have to hunt for somebody's PDA.:rolleyes:

[WyattHarris]

With Doom3 I expected more of what I liked about Doom/2, runnin and gunnin. Rooms full of dozens of monsters, shots coming from every direction, intuitive level design (think tricks and traps). And just when you where totally overwhelmed you could let loose with a BFG blast that would level half the room. I used the BFG once in all of Doom3 because I never needed it. 2-10 monsters on the screen doesn't take long to wipe out. I beat this game on the nightmare level too. The recent game that really captured the old Doom feeling was Serious Sam 1st/2nd encounter. Now there is a fun game that has no need of story.

I realize Doom3 was about horror and tech. It just wasn't scary and the engine, while impressive, wasn't enough to save it.

Maybe at long last John Romero was right, "Design is King." Oh crap, don't agree with Romero.

[white dragon]

If you want an example of a fps with a good story you really should have a look at Breakdown on the Xbox. Visually it's got a great style, the animation is fantastic, it's hand-to-hand combat a lot of the time (before Riddick), and it's got a very nice in depth story that keeps you going forward through the beautifully varied levels.

Plus it's bastard hard :)

[DuttyFoot]

man i am really looking forward to quake 4. quake 2 is the best version of quake i have ever played, especially when u go online.

[Ariel]

HL2 on the other hand had such a huge budget that it might not be making any profit yet. AFAIK it sold ~1.8 million in retail so far, and about as much through Steam and the ATI bundle deal.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information. HL2 is still in the top 10 best selling pc games charts for the last week of June, after being out for 7 months (and I'm pretty sure this doesn't include Steam sales). Doom 3, which already has an expasion out is nowhere to be seen in the top 20.

I really can't get into specifics but HL2 sales have gone extremely well for Valve.

Here are a few current PC games sales charts:

http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=5725

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/632/632732p1.html

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/charts.php?tag=charts_pc_full

[RayenD]

Makes me wonder why AAA game developers don't spend the time and money to get real writers to tell a compelling story

The reason is very simple, there is no need. People just want to run around in as much as possible photorealistic scenery and shoot things.

Even HL2 was at best C class "movie" story. Lots of people were just annoyed by it (including myself).

Games, besides some very obscure genres like adventure games and maybe some less obscure like cRPGs (Vampire Masquerade - Bloodlines comes to mind, too bad company is shut down), are not good medium to tell a story, because if you put too much attention to the story you lose interactivity. More interactivity - less story, you can only put some fluff here and there.

We need to remeber that besides ID only original engine developed back then was Unreal engine and some other less known ones. ID started all this FPS craziness and for many years they were pushing technology really hard. I'd even risk saying that we wouldn't have so advanced graphics cards now if not ID and Quake.

p.s. As for Steed's comment about their employees floating in swimming pools and driving sport cars, he was just telling the truth :).

[JMcWilliams]

The reason is very simple, there is no need. People just want to run around in as much as possible photorealistic scenery and shoot things.

I don't.


Games, besides some very obscure genres like adventure games and maybe some less obscure like cRPGs (Vampire Masquerade - Bloodlines comes to mind, too bad company is shut down), are not good medium to tell a story, because if you put too much attention to the story you lose interactivity. More interactivity - less story, you can only put some fluff here and there.
.

I disagree. A good story does not = less interactivity. HL2 was very linear, but it could have told the same story and been much more freeform.
I think first person is a medium, not a genre. Limiting first person games to 'shooters only' is silly.
Looking glass games often told interesting stories and yet were far more free than most FP games that claimed to concentrate on shooting only.
MHO. :D

[Trenox]

I think first person is a medium, not a genre. Limiting first person games to 'shooters only' is silly.

Are we talking FP (first person) or FPS (first person shooter) ? :)

I agree that more innovative approaches could be used with this technology to tell better stories, but what comes first? the chicken or the egg?

Most companies want to do FPS first (= a shooter) and then -maybe- cram in a story.

If you really want to tell a story then the developers should have the story first and THEN decide what the technology should be (third/firstperson - 2d/3d) and what kind of action could be allowed without obscuring the story too much. Planescape: Torment is an excellent example of this, where the story really took centerstage (and had pretty bad salesfigures so that designconcept is never repeated by the guys who did it :/ )

I dont believe that we will see this comming from a major studio - theres too much risk and not that much to gain from a sales point - its up to the indy developers to take this step.

[Mudvin]

man i am really looking forward to quake 4. quake 2 is the best version of quake i have ever played, especially when u go online.

Quake1 actions is much more fast paced, and it's not talking yet about "Team Fortress" mod. :D

[pthomas72]

from the ID kitchen.

Quake 4 will do great, It has a good story, lots of eye candy.
The Doom3 movie will probably Blow...

Doom3 was a shooter, You cant do much more than that. What I would like to know, Is specifically what would YOU change about Doom3 or in general the FPS market? It seems like the best thing to do is improve story and add a larger variations of monsters/sets. But that in itself doesnt seem to be enough. The genre is pretty much a game of TAG, can it be improved? Most of us never played OUTCAST, what was it exactly that made it great?

ID is not dying, the place is just in a transition. If you look up the news durring the last console change youll notice a lot of wasted anxiety over the lull in the industry. its normal, the sky isnt falling, go get a cup of coffee, the show will begin in a few minutes.

Love you,
Patrick Thomas

[Trenox]

If we are strictly talking about the gamemechanics of FPS and not story/setting i think theres many new and interesting things that could be done. The problem as i see it is that most FPS games today are based on a franchise and are either taking place in the current real world, a WW2 setting or more or less generic scifi. This is quite restrictive to the thinking of gamemechanics because there are so many conventions and expectations.

What i would like is a more "out of the box" approach with more emphasize on fast pasted movement combined with potential for doing fun tricks and jumps (like quake3 but maybe more extreme) and also more interesting weapons/combinations. Seems like the pistol/shotgun/MG/rocket/plasma paradigme has been done og redone too many times.
I agree that it IS just a game of tag, but that also means that it doesnt have be a realistic setting with focus on the production value and even a story.

The genre needs to be re-invented.

[punchatz]

I have a long history with the folks at ID. I made the stop motion models for the first incarnations of DOOM. I was offered a job for doom 3 but had to turn it down at the time.

So my thoughts on the only version of doom to be made with out me? Doom 3 was a masterpice in horror (my passion, as I used to do make up effects) plain and simple. It simply scared the crap out of me. Fantasic character disign,moody lighting(its what you dont see that scares you) and the best game engine I have ever seen. I have never been one for story first in a game, for me the twitch factor is what I am after.

So to the guys at ID, GREAT JOB! You made me proud.


Greg

[slaughters]

... I think a good story can in fact be in almost ANY type of game, and it doesn't have to be indepth and take away from your action. Frankly, most games do try to have a story, even most FPS games.... they just do a REALLY poor job a lot of the time. Hire some good writers you silly people! :DI don't think Tetris or Ms. Pacman would have benefited from a good storyline :)

[white dragon]

The FPS does NOT need reinventing, it's constantly evolved as it's rolled along. And I think that Doom 3s "failings" were that it didn't feel like it evolved enough in all areas. Personally I didn't find it scary. At all. Aliens Vs. Predator however, when that came out scared the crap out of me. It had all the dark corridors of Doom, and jumpy atmosphere. It didn't need hoards of different enemies to keep you interested because it used the ones it had so well. Doom 3 had very few enemy types for a modern game, which wouldn't have mattered if they'd been used effectively, but they just seemed repetitive.

Games like Breakdown, Half Life 2 and Deus Ex show that you can have a successful FPS and a story. And also very nice graphics. But then games like U:T and Quake 3 show that you can still have a FPS that's great fun to play without any real story.

And so it just kind of shows that you don't need to check all the boxes to have a good game. Just as long as its fun to play. Which is what they kind of forgot with Doom 3....

[JMcWilliams]

I don't think Tetris or Ms. Pacman would have benefited from a good storyline :)

hehe, maybe not. Mind you, I still don't see why theoretically you could not add a story to them. But again it comes down to what I said earlier, you don't need EVERYTHING in a game as long as it is balanced (ie. the gameplay counters the lack of story).

[Solothores]

Anyone remembers Cybermage: Darklight Awakening from Origin back in '95? ;]

[Boone]

Re: Punchatz.

You, Sir, are a God. The character's in the first two Doom games were incredible. I salute you.

BTW - do you have any links to pictures of the original puppets? They must have been awesome to look at! :D

[CaptainSam]

At least in Doom you dont have a bunch of incredibly annoying resistance fighters that keep getting in your way all the time, particularly if youre trying to get out of the firing line from a strider. And if you try to hit the c key to get them to move, they may refuse and say 'I have my little corner and Im sticking here' - even if theyre standing in the middle of a room. If you send them out in front of a strider or a rocket ship, theyll shout happily 'Good idea, Dr Freeman' before running out to get shot. Whats the deal, youre trying to save the world and are given a platoon of retards? Just ruins the gameplay completely, and there is no cheat to enable killing them. Id blast them to pieces with the rocket launcher the moment they showed up if only I could. (actually i did manage to kill one of them once with a refrigerator). Bloody A.S. (artificial stupidity) :banghead:

[JeroenDStout]

At least in Doom you dont have a bunch of incredibly annoying resistance fighters that keep getting in your way all the time, particularly if youre trying to get out of the firing line from a strider. And if you try to hit the c key to get them to move, they may refuse and say 'I have my little corner and Im sticking here' - even if theyre standing in the middle of a room. If you send them out in front of a strider or a rocket ship, theyll shout happily 'Good idea, Dr Freeman' before running out to get shot. Whats the deal, youre trying to save the world and are given a platoon of retards? Just ruins the gameplay completely, and there is no cheat to enable killing them. Id massacre them to pieces with the rocket launcher the moment they showed up if only I could, just to stop them from stealing my ammo and health packs. (actually i did manage to kill one of them once with a refrigerator) Bloody A.S. (artificial stupidity) :banghead:
Yes, I noticed that. Then again, one got witty on me when I was away to get a cup of tea and the moment I sat down I heard her say: "Shouldn't we ... uh... do something?"
Oh, and repeatedly pressing 'e' turned into: "When this is all over.. I'm gonna mate.", which was slightly disturbing.

In general, yes, AI sucks. I figure that has to do with nobody needing to be impressed with AI; if AI had the same technological rush as graphics we'd have challeging enemies by now, not challeging because they have gun X and do scripted event Y, but because they are powered by an AI that can actually outwit you in the game.

[CaptainSam]

Another nice line from the resitance fighters when theyve been waiting for too long is 'Sometimes I dream of cheese'. Proves my point that theyre retards, I guess ;-)

The whole navigation in HL2 is incredibly annoying. Just the slightest obstacle will affect your motion.

[Mudvin]

fast pasted movement combined with potential for doing fun tricks and jumps (like quake3 but maybe more extreme)

I'm still think that Quake1 is the champion in this field - i has never seen game faster then Quake1 DM, and that full of tricks. But seems like JC for some unknown reason trying to avoid these tricks(just like another gamedevs). :(

PS: Hehe, where's these guys, who told me about "incredible AI" in HL2? :rolleyes:

[JeroenDStout]

Another nice line from the resitance fighters when theyve been waiting for too long is 'Sometimes I dream of cheese'. Proves my point that theyre retards, I guess ;-)

The whole navigation in HL2 is incredibly annoying. Just the slightest obstacle will affect your motion.
"And come to think all I wanted to do is sell ensurances!"

No cheese anymore, though. Combine stopped the cheese :) I think that is why they took control over earth. Cheese.

You're a bit right about the navigation. You need to jump just to get over some very small items. Quite annoying. Then again, at least there are items. Which, you can throw ;)

[3dRaven]

Yeah doom 3 had no story it was the same washed out scenario...if only Carmacks team let you make some meaningfull desisions during the game that would outcome further parts (thing a tree/branch scenario) you wouldn't at least feel like your following a peice of sting layed by the programers.

I personally am waiting for Bio Shock (system shock's successor). Most of the old Looking Glass crew are making it. Not many games even come close to system shock 2's immersion. It had a good story and great voice acting. Can't wait till these guys go next gen...

[Solothores]

I did love doom3, especially the beginning, I was so freaked out when you listened to the com-channels, when the mess started out and shafted that peaceful science-athmosphere in which you were like what the heck, where is the action, that was really a great opening and did remind me a lot of aliens, in terms of claustrophobia and horror... and that slow buildup, also those small scriped events that you encountered everytime again, where really well done, I kinda was disappointed that they were used so rarely... though, and a problem was, that it got too repetive fastly, and after some time I just don't bought into the *shhhhhhhhh* *groar* (a hidden door opened or teleport happened anymore). However, it was freakening me out, like few games before... and those moments were great, so for me ID did deliver great work at least in that department, and I am sure next time I might get a heart attack!

As for Halflife2, I did not play it, but I watched my roommate play it, and heck, it was great entertainement just to watch. I especially loved that ID-like Sequence when you moved in that Container through the blade-runner inspired tower-complex, and all sequences that featured DOG and, ofc, Strider time - instant classic. I did love the resistance part, it really helped to sell that conflict more in terms of immersion. Those really were the moments in which epical feeling arised, that made me grin. In terms of storytelling and ambience it was greatly delivered, and some of the design elements just were beyond cool... I am so looking forward, to see what valve delivers next.

Then came Chronicles of Riddick, which I played through and I instantely adored it. Yes it was a short experience, but heck, neither doom3 nor halflife2 succeeded to make you feel that dangerous and such a badass, like Riddick, *sigh* And that ****ed-up ambience that dominated every level, was really perfect for immersion, together with the perfectly placed voiceovers of Vin Diesel, it really catched me. Starbreeze for me clearly was one of the biggest surprises, and I am so eager to see what they come up with next and I just hope that it will be a bit longer!

Now... if just one game would combinate what made D3, HL2 and TCOR exceel on each own, I would be the luckiest gamer of this world!

[Boone]

Re: Captin Sam.

Yes, that is my point exactly! Thank you! :beer:

[Rei Ayanami]

In the same way, Q4 will suck because it uses the DIII engine, which is built for indoor use and wants to do massive outside enviroments. However it looks like its got a bit more of a story, which should be fun.

Doom 3 is very much Doom 1 with pretty graphics, no improvement in play and it did get hacked and leaked before it was released, which shafted ID somewhat.

Working on the front end of Gaming (retail) I find most gamers are bored with all FPS as they dont have anything interesting in them anymore (aside from HL2 and Far Cry). Deus Ex is still one of the best FPS/RPG crossovers EVER.

[white dragon]

Rei Ayanami - I too work in retail (mainly just for the discount these days to be honest). I think its possibly the best place to get an idea of what people really think about games. It's interesting to see how many copies of a game sell on launch, and then just how many of those copies come back within a week because people don't like it. I'm guessing returns aren't taken into consideration when the charts are made? On that note there will actually be a new official chart again for games thanks to MCV. It'll be interesting to see what really sells. I think it'll be a shock to some people that games like Sim City might still be outselling games like Doom3, and some recent releases.

To say that people are bored of fps I intially thought was a little brash, but then thinking more I guess you're right. Which is maybe why a game like Gears of War on the 360 will do better as a 3rd person game, so it can't just be lumped in and compared to all the other fps games?

[Trenox]

white dragon: So you still dont think that FPS needs reinventing? Problem is that if a developer has a strong engine and strong mapping tools, i think many feel that the gameplay will come by itself. And we have seen sooo many FPS games with the same basic gameplay and weapon/monsters over and over again. This is why i really believe that some sort of reinventing is needed to keep the genre alive and not just better gfx. Most fpsgames just follows the 'rules' that id established with doom so maybe theres were some pressure to see id innovate again and change the rules to something fresh. Sadly it didnt happen with D3 but i also think it would have been too much to expect that. The changes should (again) come from the indy scene where taking chances is the best weapon they got.

[TETRAGRAMMATON]

And number two : vanishing corpses.

I agree but after a month Doom 3 went out in August 2004 there was "Ungibbable MOD".

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