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rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 04:45 PM
hey!!
i noticed that there are finished galleries for
1. 3d stills
2. illustration concept art
3. animation.

but in the WIP forums we have
1. 3d stills
2. illustration concept art
3. animation
4. games design.

so where do the pictures of finished games models go?
seems like us game modellers are missing out here. ( or perhaps i'm missing something)

cheers!!

johnwoo
07-11-2005, 04:51 PM
I'm hearing ya!!...loud and clear...it would be good to have our own forum for finished in-game models...I always found it strange that there wasn't one as far back as I can remember and it seems now more than ever that this quite a big thing that's missing imho....but hey....;)....cool forum all the same...

LordDubu
07-11-2005, 04:53 PM
I second, third, and fourth a finished game-art gallery forum. And encourage mods to be more courageous and greenlight more stellar game-art for the front-page. Seriously it's a rare day when gameart gets plugged, and that's a tragedy considering some of it is so breathtakingly awesome.

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 05:13 PM
hey!!

perhaps we could start a petition or something?
there really is no way to weed out the finished stuff in this forum. (but yeah, it's cool anyway)
is there not a way to get in touch with a moderator? i've never seen a post from one on this board i don't think.

thanks

AdamAtomic
07-11-2005, 05:15 PM
For the friendly dude that posted to the other thread, I think that Rob probably posted the topic, then hit back and changed the title or something, its not really that big a deal ;)

I would also LOVE to see a finished game art section, I think it would do nothing but good. Mods have actually stated before that they usually only frontpage stuff that is posted in the finished galleries, and that any game art that wants to be frontpage should be posted in the finished 3d stills section. it seems kind of silly to me to post beautiful 3d over matte painting movie shots next to 300 poly super heroes though, the processes involved are just too different.

EDIT - Both Bobo and Bentllama are mods for this forum, and they DO post here, but they are busy, working pros so they don't kill as much time here as many of us I think.

Confracto
07-11-2005, 05:18 PM
first, I am so agreeing! we do need a finished gameart forum.

yeah, I've notice a LOT less gameart being plugged, and I've found that finished gameart tends to just have it's wip post in here, or some rare one will just post in finished 3d stills....either way, it's incredibly HARD TO FIND IT ON THESE FORUMS!....maybe that's why there's a lack of plugging.

if you scroll down to the bottom of any gameart section page, it shows the moderators;
bobotheseal
bentllama
those are the 2 I know for sure....

RO
07-11-2005, 05:20 PM
Thing is some people tend to look at 3D and see some lowish poly thing and go and rate it 1 star without even seeing it was game art... Game Art does not get as much attention as other stuff becuase of that. Unless it is on topics that are of intrest. Anime... and other stuff.

I am ready for a vote.

One of the newer models form game art I saw not get plugged was the 1920's boxer that was an amazing model.

supernekosan
07-11-2005, 05:40 PM
Yeah, I'm in. I really think we should have a final game art section on this forum, it would be great... I was wondering, should I post my finished work in the Finished 3D Still section? I don't think it belongs here! so we absolutly need a 3d finished games art section^^

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 05:41 PM
hey!!

that's another reason why we need the finished gallery.
i NEVER check the 3d stills gallery because that's just not my thing.
At the moment i couldn't really care how well done a pre-rendered scene is. (probably because i know nothing about it but there you go)
my interest is firmly in the games category.
i mailed bobo with a PM not sure if he will respond but i really hope he does.
hopefully enough people will post here to make them take notice.
though i'm sure this isn't the first time someone has tried to get a gallery for game art.
thanks guys.

bcairns
07-11-2005, 05:45 PM
Sounds like a good idea. Finished game art sometimes tends to get lost in the Finished 3d section. http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif They recently added the finished Animation section, so I don't see why they couldn't add a game art section too!

johnwoo
07-11-2005, 05:50 PM
Gotta agree with what everyone has said so far....but also in-game artwork and CG artwork definitely has their differences, and requires different disciplines and work ethics...just another reason to have a "finished game art forum" to showcase this...

just another 2 cents from me...;)

AndyH
07-11-2005, 05:57 PM
Hey! (how come you always start with "hey!" - just curious :) )

I agree with yer matey - we need a finished game art gallery!
I think the reason why there isnt one, is that much fewer people have finished work to show than the high poly modelers. It is a bit crappy that the only way to see good game art is to watch the game WIP forum like a hawk. In my opinion, the finished 3d gallery is really boring now anyway - its mostly cars, rooms and cars in rooms.

Post it in the finished 3d gallery anyway - its perfectly ok. Just make sure you state that its low poly in the title or something.

supernekosan
07-11-2005, 06:00 PM
yea if evrybodi post is games model in the finished 3d gallery they will have no choice but to create a finished games art section..good idea...evry body should post all the work they add finish,,right now^^!!..could be fun!

johnwoo
07-11-2005, 06:02 PM
I think all it takes is there to be a finished forum for finished in-game artwork and it would be swamped imho...I know I'd post there...:D

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 06:03 PM
hey!!

i have submitted work for the 3d finished gallery. not sure if it will get in though.
apparently it has to be really good.

errm. the reason i always start with hey! is because ....dunno really. it's what i say when i say hello to someone. I just figured it's nice to say hello before i start blurting my opinions everywhere :)

and i always end with cheers!(well, most of the time) because that's how i say thanks. again just thought it would be polite to say thanks to the reader for taking time to read my post. :)

and there you have it. heh

bring on the finished forum.:bounce:

cheers!!

AndyH
07-11-2005, 06:08 PM
i have submitted work for the 3d finished gallery. not sure if it will get in though.
apparently it has to be really good.


Are you kidding? No offence to any particular artists, but theres some really bad stuff in the 3d gallery sometimes. It makes me wonder if they actually check the images at all.
Youll definately get in.

RO
07-11-2005, 06:35 PM
If we have a finished Game Art area I am sure more game art people will come.

First of I will be sure to post on other places I go to and put this info up so people can post here. I see lots of great art work coming up in the Wip art game area sure it is not in abundance like in other places.

Maybe even later on we can get official game comps.

LordDubu
07-11-2005, 06:36 PM
If we have a finished Game Art area I am sure more game art people will come.

First of I will be sure to post on other places I go to and put this info up so people can post here. I see lots of great art work coming up in the Wip art game area sure it is not in abundance like in other places.

Maybe even later on we can get official game comps.

If you build it they will come?

Swizzle
07-11-2005, 06:36 PM
I rarely check the 3D stills gallery since I'm not very interested in the usual photorealistic cars and weird rooms with naked people.

Game art, on the other hand, really holds my interest because it's going to be viewed from all angles by somebody staring at it on a TV or computer screen. Everything has to look good while still conserving polies. I think it'd be great to see more game art since there's often more creativity as well (i.e., very few naked people with fugly faces and/or boring cars).

Besides, I'm working on some stuff I'd like to post there.

Teratron
07-11-2005, 06:44 PM
You got my vote for a game art gallery

kaisasose
07-11-2005, 06:56 PM
Are you kidding? No offence to any particular artists, but theres some really bad stuff in the 3d gallery sometimes. It makes me wonder if they actually check the images at all.
Youll definately get in.

I agree admittedly there is some great stuff in the 3d gallery but there is some stuff let in with rose tinted glasses. We need our forum.

MFTituS
07-11-2005, 08:07 PM
yes, a gameart gallery would be nice, but is not a must have in my eyes.
really "low"-poly art becomes more and more rare. as you look on most chars and other stuff i see not much difference to highpolywork.
you are modeling with edgeloops, using some shaders and complex lightsetups for showing your stuff the best way like the highpoly boys.
even more, some gameart looks much better then highpolywork cause of better utilisation of texturemaps than just playing around with nude shaders to get a specific look.
and if a model is completly round or has some visible edges should not be a difference.

and if your art will be seen in the 3d gallery all kind of cg interested people will have a look on it.
the risk is, that your art goes down by all the other pictures, but that can happen with all your graphics whatever mehtod you use to create it. there are enough gorgeous 2d paintings that are not much seen.
on the other hand the gallery will be divided into 3d and ingame work and only a specific group of artists will see your work.

so i dont know if it is the best to seperate those to things. (3d) art is (3d) art, no matter if it is made with more polys and bigger texturesizes or not. finally it is the same - either the audience likes your work or not.

so let the lowpoly art merge with the other 3d works and not seperate it.
otherwise there will always exist people who think that ingame work is something like sleazy stuff - and this opinion will be strenghtened by an own game gallery.

hope somebody gets a sense of all the stuff iīm trying to say.

johnwoo
07-11-2005, 08:28 PM
Yep...I for 1 understand what your saying..but in all fairness (and no disrespect at all) but I slightly disagree, all the while I have been visiting the game-art forums and see the w.i.p's, pretty much all the threads, the artist is specifying his/her restriction etc...and personally when I create any characters/creatures I always imagine how it would look in a commercial engine as such either being controlled by a player or an NPC enemy..I do agree with you tho' as extreme low-polygon meshes are becoming rare, but the polygon restriction will still be there and imho will still be considerably low polygon than that of CG rendered character/creatures for next-gen (especially when the big push apart from onlinefeatures etc is HD)...so on that note I still really hope for a "finished game art forum"..cos' the 2 disciplines are still some way apart...

Ihopethisreallydoesnotreadlikebabble:)

TiZeta
07-11-2005, 08:55 PM
I agree that a finished game art gallery would be very useful! I wondered why it was missing.
Me too, i think there are differences between high poly and game models even if polycount is increasing in game art.
yes, i really would like a game art gallery!

Dragot
07-11-2005, 11:39 PM
I personally would like to see a game art gallery because u see more good texturingthan with high poly art.
Plus if you think about it, if people who spend there time doing
really high poly yet crappy work see how to do the ( basics of modeling and texturing)
we will all start to see much much better high poly work.

BESIDES just try to find game art in the finished 3d art section. It takes forever.

ps. no offense to those who do great high poly work:)

skrubbles
07-12-2005, 05:24 AM
I've been waiting for a finished Game Art section forever. I mean it would make a lot of sense. Its totally different then the hi-poly stills in the finished 3d section... I mean we have to take into account alot of factors when making game art. Another bonus to having a finished section is because its hell weeding through all the wip threads to find that the model's abandoned or something. It'd be great to have a finished gallery for this plus it'd be very useful for employers, which in turn is very beneficial to us posters.

Por@szek
07-12-2005, 07:48 AM
You say everything what I wanted to say, and I AGREE IN 100%.

Hatred
07-12-2005, 08:00 AM
little boy came in and started jumping, waveing and screaming: ME TO ME TO!! I'M IN I'M IN!!!

Czernobog
07-12-2005, 08:26 AM
I agree, we need one.

frameless
07-12-2005, 08:39 AM
Yes, i am for this gallery, too.

The reasons for this you already mentioned but another one is that i think if you post a low-poly work in the current Finished 3D-Stills forum it doesn't get enough attention.
I don't know why but it just feels like that. Low-poly and high-poly are totally different things, so why not create a " finished game-art" forum?
Would be cool!

rob-beddall
07-12-2005, 09:56 AM
hey!!

good to see so much support for this.
keep it coming guys and hopefully the moderators will take note.

cheers!!

eMPeck
07-12-2005, 10:47 AM
agreed! I don't visit 3d finished section at all as I'm not interested. Finished game art section would be nice place to look at ;) Come on mods!

Prs-Phil
07-12-2005, 11:17 AM
great idea,

Gameart deserves more recognition and it is a great chance for other people to get interested in this subject to.

Supervlieg
07-12-2005, 11:50 AM
y'all have my vote for the gallery :)

AndyH
07-12-2005, 12:00 PM
It would be intrested to see what the mods say on this. They must have a damn good reason for not making a finished games 3d section yet because there are numerous forums being added that cover little known 3d apps, and even plugins!

Jason-Lavoie
07-12-2005, 01:44 PM
"Sign on the dotted lines"

http://img325.echo.cx/img325/9350/jayssig6ro.jpg

I am definatly in, were trying to do this at threedy, but I think it died down, but know you all have given me hope, i shall start a petition there as well :)

WesleyTack
07-12-2005, 03:44 PM
yea, i'm in myself, a finished game forum is needed !
get on it CGTALK!

-KDX-
07-12-2005, 04:24 PM
make it so

-KDX-

Bazooka Tooth
07-12-2005, 04:25 PM
Do it to it

bcairns
07-12-2005, 05:35 PM
Maybe we should post a thread linking to this thread in the General Discussion section. What do you think?

Swizzle
07-12-2005, 05:48 PM
Maybe we should post a thread linking to this thread in the General Discussion section. What do you think?I'm on it. I'll post with a link to that thread.

Edit: Here's the link to the thread in General Discussion. http://cgtalk.com/showthread.php?p=2457016

RO
07-12-2005, 07:13 PM
Thanks for that though the first admin respose was... Well just go look.

Edit: Thread got closed :| Not sure my thoughts on that are...

johnwoo
07-12-2005, 07:18 PM
Well...I guess that's that then...:shrug:...pity...I thought we were nearly there..heh...but if it's a considerable amount of effort then I can understand that...but what a shame tho'...it could've been REAL good....:sad:

RO
07-12-2005, 07:21 PM
We are not asking it to be done tomorrow but we were sort of implying that this needs to be done. If it takes 2 months so be it... As long as it was going to happen. Sorry but I did not like how we got shot down.

baaah888
07-12-2005, 07:22 PM
well the thread in General disscussions has been archived. Maybe too few people appreciate game art. Well i sugest we start making an impact on the final images sections.

we should all start posting out work with "GAMEART -" written in front of it. To be honest im a bit dissapointed they closed the thread without any real disscussion, Leigh says the final images section requires special codeing, Well then just give us a seperate forum in this forum where we can post final images. no special codeing or anyhting just a drop box for final images only. I'd be down with that, i hate sifting through the 3d finished stuff for 1 maybe 2 pieces of game art to look at.

RO
07-12-2005, 07:25 PM
Ill have to get some pics of some stuff I have not posted before like my level art and such.

If we are going to do that mention in the description that we would like in our opinion a separate area for game art. We would also have to set a time for uploads.

If enough people group in the chances of bans or being talked down etc would be limited.

But it all depends who is in. I In if enough people are in for this kind of deal :)

bcairns
07-12-2005, 07:26 PM
d'oh! http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/cry.gif oh well... we just need to make sure now that people actually post their finished game art in the gallery. So everyone when you're done with your piece, don't be afraid to post it in the finished 3d section! http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

baaah888
07-12-2005, 07:30 PM
Ill have to get some pics of some stuff I have not posted before like my level art and such.

If we are going to do that mention in the description that we would like in our opinion a separate area for game art. We would also have to set a time for uploads.

If enough people group in the chances of bans or being talked down etc would be limited.

But it all depends who is in. I In if enough people are in for this kind of deal :)

even if we all did it seperatly and not as a protest, we could then always just type in GAMEART in search then sort by date, and get a comprehensive assortment of game work.

johnwoo
07-12-2005, 07:35 PM
I gotta agree with baaah888...even a sticky or something would be good...:shrug: the game art forum moderators can't do anything like a sticky thread for finished work at all?...surely it's possible and with minimum effort...the thread will run itself....

eMPeck
07-12-2005, 07:38 PM
Too bad. i saw few game arts at 3d finished works, and people said that this is not forum for 'lowpoly' :P

Most ridiculous thing is that here is Game Development Section on CG Board :shrug: (http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=40)

AndyH
07-12-2005, 07:40 PM
well, judging from the frank and certain response from leigh, and the fact that the thread was closed before anyone can complain, id say the chances of getting a games art gallery are extremely slim - if that.
All i can say is that game artists should post in the finished 3d gallery more often, and not have any dbouts about doing so.

MrDev
07-12-2005, 07:40 PM
The least they could do is add a sub forum.... :(

Jensen
07-12-2005, 07:53 PM
I haven't read the entire topic but...:

As of right now the game art goes under the main 3d stills section. If it's concept art for a game it goes under the illustrated section. I, however, would like to see a finished gallery for game artists, because I find it very time consuming filtering through all the finished 3d art to find one or two pieces of 3d game art.

I say it's a good idea. But Cgtalk doesn't change often... so I dunno if it wil happen.

AdamAtomic
07-12-2005, 07:54 PM
I don't think something like my mini ships will even get noticed in the "finished 3d section," because the whole point of the mini ships is to not use resources, a concept that doesn't exist for traditional 3d and high poly work. it is really a shame that rare animation programs get their own forum and we don't have a place to post things that we are proud of to a community that speaks that language. Yeah it's 3D, and it's art, but you guys saw how people reacted to Soul's low poly stuff being put up on the front page; we had 10-20 diff. posters all calling it crap and they couldn't believe it was linked from the front page even though it was some of the finest game art to come through in a couple years! Ideally everyone would appreciate each piece of game art based on its own merits, but when its placed next to a GI+HDR rendered Ferrarri on a cliff with lightning in the background, its awful hard not to compare those two pieces, especially if they are in the same forum.

The 3D Art section is primarily for appreciating a 2D scene that was created using 3D tools. Game Art is about appreciating an interactive 3D model created under severe constraints that must look good from all angles all the time. If we are to post our finished work anywhere it should be in Animation, their rules and constraints are much closer to the ones we face.

EDIT - I should add a disclaimer here, in case any of my language is unclear. I have nothing but the utmost respect for traditional 3D artists, and there is a reason I do game art - it is easier and less time consuming! However, that does not mean it has its own distinct challenges, and what better way to appreciate art than to respect and understand those challenges and how they were overcome? Who better to know these things than our peers?

baaah888
07-12-2005, 08:05 PM
EDIT - I should add a disclaimer here, in case any of my language is unclear. I have nothing but the utmost respect for traditional 3D artists, and there is a reason I do game art - it is easier and less time consuming! However, that does not mean it has its own distinct challenges, and what better way to appreciate art than to respect and understand those challenges and how they were overcome? Who better to know these things than our peers?


whoa there tiger... slow down.

Easier??? sorry but good game art is alot harder to achieve, than good film style art, its an artform in itself being able to utilise every polygon in your budget to get the look you want. If film art doesn't look good slap on another hundred thousand polys, or get 3 new shaders for each material, game art. or at least really good game art, requires alot of thought and creativity.

Ok its probably not harder, but its certainly not easier.

AdamAtomic
07-12-2005, 08:17 PM
I don't think its very easy to throw millions of polys and shaders at things, but maybe that is just me! It could just be my own experience, but I think it is much easier to create good low poly models than good high poly models. As I said before there are many challenges that are unique to low poly modeling, I am in no way saying that just because we have to make fewer triangles our job is a breeze. But there are many challenges in high poly modeling too, and I think they are harder, because the resolution (not screen resolution, i'm using the term figuratively here) is so much finer. Take the models from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within - really beautiful models, amazing shaders, shittons of polys, but they still didn't get it right, they still didn't look real, and I don't think throwing polys or shaders at that problem is going to fix it. Game Art is inherently about approximation and balance and sacrifice and compromise, that is where our challenges lie. We aren't charged with recreating reality, and for that I am thankful :)

baaah888
07-12-2005, 10:16 PM
I don't think its very easy to throw millions of polys and shaders at things, but maybe that is just me! It could just be my own experience, but I think it is much easier to create good low poly models than good high poly models. As I said before there are many challenges that are unique to low poly modeling, I am in no way saying that just because we have to make fewer triangles our job is a breeze. But there are many challenges in high poly modeling too, and I think they are harder, because the resolution (not screen resolution, i'm using the term figuratively here) is so much finer. Take the models from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within - really beautiful models, amazing shaders, shittons of polys, but they still didn't get it right, they still didn't look real, and I don't think throwing polys or shaders at that problem is going to fix it. Game Art is inherently about approximation and balance and sacrifice and compromise, that is where our challenges lie. We aren't charged with recreating reality, and for that I am thankful :)

please note the last line of my last post, the one on its own. I was jokeing about ours being harder, but i certainly dont find high poly art generally harder, just more time consuming. guess thats just me, i sort of learned in the middle with high poly and low poly stuff. i do prefer game art tho.

mindrot
07-12-2005, 10:51 PM
TOTALLY!!

It's about time they created a dedicated forum for finished game art. Most of the time the finished work that gets into the 3D Stills gallery gets skimmed over.

It would be great to have a seperate section. It would be lot more focussed I think.

BRING IT ON!!

:thumbsup:

RO
07-12-2005, 10:54 PM
Well posted something I had done a while ago ill keep posting daily something till I am out of juice :P

http://cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=258064

Boondock Saint
07-12-2005, 11:03 PM
i think we're our own breed. i really wonder how many nice pieces make it to the cgtalk gallery. (high poly vs low poly)

ajsmac
07-13-2005, 01:19 AM
You got my vote

There is no question in my mind that a dedicated forum for finished game art would boost this community and no doubt draw in people from other well developed game art forums.

_andy

RenaudGaland
07-13-2005, 02:18 AM
I'm with you all :)

+1 Vote.

Bazooka Tooth
07-13-2005, 03:17 AM
we could all do super low poly stuff like Adam Atomic's mini ships and LITTER THE **** out of the Finished 3d stills. :D See if they think about it then... :hmm:

RO
07-13-2005, 03:25 AM
I hope this happens, I am actually dumping as much 3D stuff as possible that I have done... mostly level design stuff.

Dragot
07-13-2005, 03:34 AM
wow this is growing fast.


keep posting people we need to get the administrators attention.

Kris-S
07-13-2005, 04:08 AM
yep good idea

Rion411
07-13-2005, 04:49 AM
Hell Yeah! Best idea I've heard of all day, all weak, all month......

OriK
07-13-2005, 08:15 AM
I think we already have the attention of the administrators. But here is one more vote for the new gallery.

Hatred
07-13-2005, 08:18 AM
so whats now? everyone post finished stilss 3d galllery? :thumbsup: :thumbsup: theh sounds nice, I'm already makin beauty renders :)

rob-beddall
07-13-2005, 10:30 AM
hey!!

looks like i created an "out of control" monster here. :)
i really can't believe LEIGH's response in the general chat forum.
guess it's not gonna happen, which is F***ING B*****KS
for one, the finished work area is called 3d stills. and as i'm sure we are all aware, game art is all about it NOT being still. but viewable from all angles while it is moving. (as someone pointed out earlier.
If it's not going to happen, i suppose we could create a thread (and try to get it stickied) of pics of our final pieces. we would have to point out that we don't want crits on it. (you could still get those on the WIP forum) the idea of this thread would be to just have a resource of finished models and texture sheets etc.

but as someone said earlier, they recently added the animation finished forum.
if that's true then i see no reason why our game art shouldn't have it's own forum.
if i had a ISP mail address i would now be moving over to polycount. (but i don't)
I think i have to say again, I REALLY CANNOT BELIEVE HOW THE IDEA WAS SIMPLY TOSSED ASIDE BY LEIGH.

CHEERS!!

Slainean
07-13-2005, 10:30 AM
I had to come out my lurk mode to say that I personally endorse the idea of a Game Art Gallery. Rock the vote ..!

rob-beddall
07-13-2005, 10:53 AM
hey!!

and as for it needing special coding?

CTRL-C, CTRL-V

sort it out. pfffffft

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-13-2005, 10:57 AM
hey!!

AAAAAAAAND another thing.
Leigh has done a fine job of highlighting the point why i DON'T post in the 3d stills forum.
because it just gets passed over or tossed aside just like she did to this idea.
i don't think CGtalk are taking game art seriously at all.
I might start posting game art in the 2d section. or animation.
it has to be passed by a moderator to get in so maybe they will take more notice if i try posting it in the wrong forum.
might get their backs up,but that "MOD" has really annoyed me.

cheers!!

Relic
07-13-2005, 11:24 AM
You've got my vote, I can't see any logical reason we shouldn't have it.

Ivars
07-13-2005, 12:12 PM
Got my vote too!

But for the time being, (since it looks like itīs not gonna happen) why donīt we start a new thread to post finished work in. Or maybe we could name our threads "Finished work:" or something for easy sorting... And keep posting in the 3D stills gallery!

johnwoo
07-13-2005, 12:16 PM
In all honesty I don't think winding yourself will help anything (save your sanity ;)) ...imho I would quite happily post up my finished artworks in a thread that could possibly get stickied so that anyone visiting/joins this forum will see it and can search through it with ease cos' all their is gonna be in there superb looking in-game artwork that is finished...:)...

Is anyone up for starting a thread like this and contributing to it?...cos' the way I see it...it's either this solution or the neverending barrage of high polygon 3d stills section to post in...:shrug:

WesleyTack
07-13-2005, 12:19 PM
i myself also posted finished game work, but i believe it would have got more attention in a "finished game forum" then it did in the 3D forum. and there are an equally amount of WIP's of game stuff then 3D stuff, both forums are very active daily, so why wouldn't there also become a "finished game forum"

make it happen CGTALK !!!

mindrot
07-13-2005, 12:29 PM
...imho I would quite happily post up my finished artworks in a thread that could possibly get stickied...

Not sure I aggree on that. It would get kinda messy in my opinion. There wouldn't be any focussed criticism for each artist's posts, as there would be many different works in there, and it could be tricky to relate each reply to each image/post. I think it would be a bit too chaotic and unstructured.

Though I do like Ivars idea:

... Or maybe we could name our threads "Finished work:" or something for easy sorting...

Anyhat... my 2p....

Bazooka Tooth
07-13-2005, 12:32 PM
I have another idea! Since they are all giving game art a 1 star vote, why dont we run through and give all of them 1 star for wasting all those polys!

satanatron
07-13-2005, 12:33 PM
totally agree a gallery would be rad...better than sifting through wip threads to find the finished image.

johnwoo
07-13-2005, 01:22 PM
Actually I agree also with ivars post too...he posted a reply before me and is quite obviously a better solution, If I'd read his reply before I posted mine I would've deleted mine...heh....I'm an Artist not a producer after all....;)

RO
07-13-2005, 01:30 PM
I have another idea! Since they are all giving game art a 1 star vote, why dont we run through and give all of them 1 star for wasting all those polys!

For the love of God WTH happened wit my mother ship post :| It had 5 stars yesterday :| now it is 2 stars. I feel a conspiracy going on... That is the perfect example of why we need our area!!! I appreciate the people who appreciate the art of game art but for the rest lame people I just say... ( add any bad insult here). I would hate to go and battle that way but that sort of ticked me off.

HellBoy
07-13-2005, 01:53 PM
I vote for a new gallery too, maybe a sub-gallery under the 3d stills.

baaah888
07-13-2005, 02:09 PM
well Im quite frustrated by this, so ive decided to use my current unemployment to its fullest.

Ive bought the Domain www.gamingart.co.uk (http://www.gamingart.co.uk), (keep in mind its not up yet ive just literally paid for it) and hopefully by the end of august I can have a full php forum dedicated just to gameing art from concept to completion I just wondered how many of you guys would be interested in this.

I intend to have quite a few general sections keep in mind things may change over the next month or so.

So far i have planned.



General Disscussion - for game art disscussion

WIP: - For all WIP

Character Gallery: - Since alot of people do characters i have seperated these.
Environments, Levels, Props and vehicles Gallery: - dedicated to the obvious :)

Tutorials and technique disscussions: - all sorts of tutorials, links to software, help etc

Breaking into the industry: - Schooling vs self taught, all subjects aimed at helping people break in.

Interviews: - with industry people (ranging from vetrans to people who just got thie first jobs), this forum would be locked but updated with single new threads of Q&A

Applications: - everyhting to do with applications,


I want to keep it small to start with growing gradually and adding more forums as the need becomes apparent. Ive decided against including programming and Jobs/mods pages for the time being as i want to build a dedicated group of game artists community first before spreading wings to encapsulate more people.


So anyone think this is a good idea? If anyhting else Im doing this to learn some new skills as well as having a place dedicated place for the game artists out there. (sure there are places like this around, but heck nothing wrong with a bit of variety and competition.)

eMPeck
07-13-2005, 02:30 PM
There already is site dedicated to game artists: http://www.gamingartist.com/

I'd rather like to have support from admins & mods here, on cgtalk. It's my favourite english-language place over the net. I'd like to stay here, but I think that we're just not understood.

SAD.

Bazooka Tooth
07-13-2005, 02:31 PM
For the love of God WTH happened wit my mother ship post :| It had 5 stars yesterday :| now it is 2 stars.

That is one of the ones I was watching which makes me think WE HAVE TO GO TO BATTLE!!! :D

Barely any of the people who do FX or things for print or any other high poly rendering know at all what game art is all about - which is why it ends up with low ratings. All of the people who do game art know exactly what it takes to get high poly renders - which is why we respect them and give them good ratings when they do good work. Their ignorance is our downfall.

How many game models have won CG Choice Awards?

I say we give anything that is not a game model a 1 star!

Bazooka Tooth
07-13-2005, 02:36 PM
There already is site dedicated to game artists: http://www.gamingartist.com/ (http://www.gamingartist.com/)
I think you just doubled their traffic by posting the link here.

RO
07-13-2005, 02:42 PM
That is one of the ones I was watching which makes me think WE HAVE TO GO TO BATTLE!!! :D

Barely any of the people who do FX or things for print or any other high poly rendering know at all what game art is all about - which is why it ends up with low ratings. All of the people who do game art know exactly what it takes to get high poly renders - which is why we respect them and give them good ratings when they do good work. Their ignorance is our downfall.

How many game models have won CG Choice Awards?

I say we give anything that is not a game model a 1 star!

But I feel bad putting down good peoples work :| We just have to make people understand. Ill keep postin stuff no matter what rating. I have tons of GameArt stuff this will be at least 2 weeks till I put most of my stuff up.

baaah888
07-13-2005, 02:53 PM
There already is site dedicated to game artists: http://www.gamingartist.com/

I'd rather like to have support from admins & mods here, on cgtalk. It's my favourite english-language place over the net. I'd like to stay here, but I think that we're just not understood.

SAD.

Yeah i know theres currently places like it. But i was wanting to add my own twist too it, I want to creat a resource that will aid people on breaking into the industry and gaining contacts, whilst showcasing gameart alot as well.

Sure its been done before and hell i love CGtalk and CGchat im not gonna stop posting here, (edit - Also I certainly don't want to steal people and make them exclusively use my site, I just want to make a place where gaming art is appreciated more and not compared on the same playing field as high poly art)

my aim would be a place thats simply and selfishly dedicated to Gameart and becoming a game artist, I intend to rope in a few of my friends and aquaintences to give exclusive interviews about their experiences in the games industry. rangeing from people at RARE to Ubisoft, and also maybe if i can get in touch a few other people. I dont intend this just to be another forum to post work, more of a gaming resource.

Bazooka Tooth
07-13-2005, 03:00 PM
But I feel bad putting down good peoples work.

Yeah me too. I will gather my work up and post it as well. I dont think we can really educate them on what we do and have them stand behind us when we do excelent work. I guess we could flood it and support each other and understand that a 2 or 3 star Game Art post is acutally worth twice that.

If you want a CG award you would probably have to post your high poly model and render it to compete with print and film by using reflection maps, radiosity, 30 pass AA and what not. :shrug:

mindrot
07-13-2005, 03:18 PM
I'd rather like to have support from admins & mods here, on cgtalk. It's my favourite english-language place over the net. I'd like to stay here, but I think that we're just not understood.

I agree. It's also nice to have all the other works around to look to for inspiration (illustration. etc.)

RO
07-13-2005, 03:24 PM
I say we just keep posting stuff as much as possible and see were it gets us.

Confracto
07-13-2005, 03:37 PM
personally, I'm just wondering why any of our 'gameart' forum mods havn't said anything in this thread yet.....anyone find that odd? ...

AdamAtomic
07-13-2005, 03:53 PM
What I would like best, assuming that we are totally boned on the "no finished art section" front, is a regular sub-forum of game art called "Finished Works". That way I can bookmark both Game Art WIP and Finished Works and browse and rate and comment on them separately. We push a LOT of WIP work through here, and simply posting our Finished Works in WIP will really clutter things up. I don't think it is any extra work or code really just to add a regular-style sub-forum, after all we have them for our comps already anyways, and it wouldn't clutter the front page.

RO
07-13-2005, 03:56 PM
I find it odd also. Almost like we do not have Mods. Proof that game art is a second thought here on the cgtalk forums.

Why do I like CGtalk? Because I can see stuff that is being done at the moment and what is pretty much hot in the cg industry. This is an awesome site!

Just wish we could get a little attention about this and see if it is possible. I do not want a lame answer like the coding is not simple so we will not do it. I mean how hard can it be? And If it is hard I am sure we are all willing to wait to see it happen. We are all pretty reasonable people here. If it takes 2 months or a bit more I think that is logical.

DrFx
07-13-2005, 04:02 PM
Just read the first page, not the entire thread, but yeah!

You got my vote, too!:thumbsup:

bcairns
07-13-2005, 04:04 PM
hey!!

and as for it needing special coding?

CTRL-C, CTRL-V

sort it out. pfffffft

cheers!!

LOL, that's exactly what I was thinking. I mean, I'm no programmer, but would it really be that hard to code a new gallery forum? Wouldn't it be exactly the same as the other gallery forums, but with a different forum name? Isn't the money from CG Society membership and Ballistic book sales supposed to support the upkeep and growth of this site?

kaisasose
07-13-2005, 04:12 PM
For the love of God WTH happened wit my mother ship post :| It had 5 stars yesterday :| now it is 2 stars. I feel a conspiracy going on... That is the perfect example of why we need our area!!! I appreciate the people who appreciate the art of game art but for the rest lame people I just say... ( add any bad insult here). I would hate to go and battle that way but that sort of ticked me off.

I think in some ways this runs deeper than just stars...some guys are very happy to recieve praise for good work but not willing to dish it out. Hence a lot of good work is lost pretty quickly down the boards. Personally, if I say someones work is good its because I think it is, and if that person comes across my thread and says nothing to crit or encourage, then I find that pretty selfish and one sided.

just my 2p.

johnwoo
07-13-2005, 04:35 PM
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=258313

RO
07-13-2005, 04:46 PM
Posted I am hoping also.

djkaneda
07-13-2005, 06:38 PM
i agree, we neeeeed it

skrubbles
07-13-2005, 07:05 PM
got my vote and my comment!

Psyk0
07-13-2005, 08:15 PM
I think it would be a great addition to the game art community.

leigh
07-13-2005, 10:33 PM
hey!!

AAAAAAAAND another thing.
Leigh has done a fine job of highlighting the point why i DON'T post in the 3d stills forum.
because it just gets passed over or tossed aside just like she did to this idea.
i don't think CGtalk are taking game art seriously at all.
I might start posting game art in the 2d section. or animation.
it has to be passed by a moderator to get in so maybe they will take more notice if i try posting it in the wrong forum.
might get their backs up,but that "MOD" has really annoyed me.

cheers!!

1. I am not a mod, I am the head administrator on this site ;)
2. It's not a good idea to insult the administrator of this site ;)
3. I manually check every single submission to the gallery, and if I see you intentionally submitting to the wrong forum solely to annoy me, I'll simply reject it. People who intentionally go out of their way to annoy or in any way waste the time of any Forum Leaders or Administrators on this site can face having their posting priviledges revoked. So please don't resort to that!

I did indeed dismiss the idea of the game art forum very quickly, but that's only because it's not the first time that people have requested additional forums, and the answer has always been no in the past.

You have to understand that there is backend coding that goes into creating the gallery forums, and with the addition of new forums, this creates more work for the Forum Leader as well.

If people cannot appreciate game art, then they shouldn't be here on CGTalk, since low poly 3D art is just as viable a form of craft as high resolution 3D work. Having said that though, if you're using the star ratings to gauge the attitude of users at CGTalk towards game art in general, then you're making a mistake. The star ratings system is a very bad way to gauge anything since most people who reply to threads or look at them do not vote, in addition to the fact that there are a lot of people who simply vote images badly for fun (which unfortunately there is nothing we can do about) - this would explain the one user here who found his work rated down to 2 stars.

I think it is very unfair to make broad statements like "CGTalk doesn't take Game Art seriously" when we already have an entire WIP forum for it, and have never turned away game imagery submitted to the Finished Gallery simply because it was game art.

I also find some of the attitudes here very childish, like:

I say we give anything that is not a game model a 1 star!

So please stop acting as if we're treating you like underdogs, because we're not. You don't see seperate forums for architectural rendering, visual effects, etc either, do you? The fact that we've consolidated all the 3D into a single Finished Forum works best, is the most efficient to maintain, and keeps CGTalk a simpler place to visit.

bcairns
07-13-2005, 10:43 PM
Thanks for responding Leigh. http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

I guess what we all can do is just put GAMEART at the front of all our threads (like some of you have been doing already), that way we can sort the gallery by thread name, and they will all be together in the same area (we would still have to find what page the G's start on though, hehe). And some other random G threads would be in there as well, but at least it would be a little better.

AndyH
07-13-2005, 10:44 PM
Well said leigh - now lets hope this thread can continue in a peaceful manner, lest it be archived to the depths of the forums!

I think a games forum wouldve been nice, being as i really appreciate lowpoly stuff, but i think if you are vigilant and keep an eye on the games WIP thread, you can see all the good stuff before it gets submitted. I always submit my games models into the finished 3d section anyway.

baaah888
07-13-2005, 10:56 PM
Thanks for responding Leigh. http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

I guess what we all can do is just put GAMEART at the front of all our threads (like some of you have been doing already), that way we can sort the gallery by thread name, and they will all be together in the same area (we would still have to find what page the G's start on though, hehe). And some other random G threads would be in there as well, but at least it would be a little better.

well i sugested we'd write GAMEART in front so you could just search the forum for gameart then sort by date to see only game art.

As for Leighs post, yeah i think if you'd said half that in the general disscusions thread we'd have got it, we all felt unloved cause it was a 1 line rejection, Its just human nature and it felt like you snubbed us cause we were the game art lot, were sorry to have reacted wrongly and presumed the worst :)

Andy your stuffs great Im glad you post your stuff cause often it stands up well in the main forum. like the drill sagre model, excelent stuff. (and just checking out your CGawards, and noticed that the R LEE ERMEY model didn't get an award. which personally game art wise was great.)

TimAppleby
07-13-2005, 11:01 PM
Clearly game art is not ignored. There are have been lots of pieces on the front/top of the forum and also in the 3d gallery. I think its is unfortunate that there is not a gallery specifically dedicated to game art - however as explained there are clearly reasons why this is not the case at the moment.
Labelling your work as 'GameArt' in the finished section is smart thing to do and I'm sure it would overcome part of the problem of sifting through all the submissions/threads, to find relevant work your interested in.
Still I would hope that one day a gallery will be setup for us. ;)

RO
07-13-2005, 11:02 PM
I have to say I am not 100% satisfied. I think the rudeness can be pointed out directly to you Leigh. Closing that thread was not a great idea in my opinion. Which is what caused confusion and backlash at you. Thing is everyone I have seen post agrees that a 3D game art thread would be a good idea. I am sure the 1 rating posts was just a thing that happened because of that disappointment. Thing is with any management if you see an issue that you know you can not solve you have to spend some time to clear it up so people understand the issues that you guys are in. If you just say quickly that this is not going to happen, people will tend to react this way. Further more you do not need to get angry at people who got angry at you because of your clear lack of attention on the situation.



The idea of coding seems weird to me. I mean is this really that hard? We have proposed a sub forum in the 3D section. Another idea I saw was putting tags in front if you have something like architecture visualization, game art, 3D highpoly art, and etc. The possibilities are endless... This type of thing could be done in the other threads and it would be a seamless upgrade.

baaah888
07-13-2005, 11:07 PM
Can i just ask how CGAWARDS are .... well awarded

Its just IMO ^^^TIMS^^^ future soldier in his avatar certainly is outstanding work, that in alot of game artist opions deserves an award. Yet it hasn't been awarded anyhting. So what exactly is the criteria of the awards and how would this piece be selected for an award then given the award?

AdamAtomic
07-13-2005, 11:07 PM
Leigh - Thanks very much for taking the time to write up a more elaborate response, we all appreciate it! Your response is fair and reasonable. However, I still hope that you and the other administrators find the time and inclination to add a Finished Game Art forum (in some form or other) sometime in the future, it could only do good for the community. Thanks!

leigh
07-13-2005, 11:15 PM
Further more you do not need to get angry at people who got angry at you because of your clear lack of attention on the situation.

Perhaps you did not read my reply to this thread correctly. I have stated that I did not need to consider it at depth when I replied to the General Discussions thread, because we have considered adding additional forums before and have previously decided against it. If you want to interpret my reply to that thread as being rude, then that is your prerogative. I just don't see any reason to give lengthy explanations to things when a decision has been made regarding it in the past. And this is also why I closed the thread, because it would be a waste of everyones time (both yours and mine) to continue discussing something when a decision has been made. It would be giving false hope, in my opinion, and I don't like to do that - I rather prefer to just let you know the answer to a question instead of allowing a discussion on it to drag on and on. Do you understand what I mean?

I see no merit in creating sub forums or additional forums to the galleries since it only further clutters up an already massive forum. It also complicates the process of submitting art for the actual artists themselves - as it is, people already have difficulty submitting their work to the correct galleries. Adding to this potential confusion creates more work for everyone.

Something else that you have to consider is that when certain groups of people want special treatment, then everyone asks for special treatment. If we were to create a gallery soley for Game Art, we would then have to create forums for architecture, visual effects, broadcast branding, etc as well, since we would have no leg to stand on in order to refuse. CGTalk is already a massive site with a hell of a lot of forums within it. Creating more forums and making the site even more convoluted and sub-divided is something we are trying very, very hard to avoid.

Category tags have been discussed in the past and it is an idea that I personally still would like to see implemented at some stage, when we have the time and resources to do so.

leigh
07-13-2005, 11:17 PM
Can i just ask how CGAWARDS are .... well awarded

Its just IMO ^^^TIMS^^^ future soldier in his avatar certainly is outstanding work, that in alot of game artist opions deserves an award. Yet it hasn't been awarded anyhting. So what exactly is the criteria of the awards and how would this piece be selected for an award then given the award?

Moderators vote on them. If five moderators vote in favour of an image, it goes to the CG Choice forum. I guess this is something I need to add to the FAQ :)

mindrot
07-13-2005, 11:21 PM
Moderators vote on them. If five moderators vote in favour of an image, it goes to the CG Choice forum. I guess this is something I need to add to the FAQ :)

Thanks... I was also wondering about that :thumbsup:

AdamAtomic
07-13-2005, 11:29 PM
Something else that you have to consider is that when certain groups of people want special treatment, then everyone asks for special treatment. If we were to create a gallery soley for Game Art, we would then have to create forums for architecture, visual effects, broadcast branding, etc as well, since we would have no leg to stand on in order to refuse. CGTalk is already a massive site with a hell of a lot of forums within it. Creating more forums and making the site even more convoluted and sub-divided is something we are trying very, very hard to avoid.

Category tags have been discussed in the past and it is an idea that I personally still would like to see implemented at some stage, when we have the time and resources to do so.

Thanks for the additional posts, I am not sure if you will have time to respond further but I would like to add another opinion.

I agree with a lot of what you posted, but I think that Game Art is not quite the same thing as say archviz in relation to 3D. The Finished 3D forum is a stills forum, and a vast majority of the work is designed for 2D presentation; 3D tools are used, and 3D techniques, but the final image for presentation is deeply 2D, to the point that efficient artists will simply not texture anything that isn't viewable in the scene. Nearly all of the major groups of artists that post within Finished 3D target this process and presentation method (the commercial vehicle modelers would be a fine exception I think, although those tend to be designed with 2d presentation in mind as well).

Game Art, with the exception of UIs and menus, is designed for 3D presentation, and 3D consumption. It is much closer to Animation in that way than it is to 3D. To me it makes a lot more sense to post finished Game Art in the Finished Animation forum, but that sort of rankles me organizationally. But at least they share the same concern for multi-faceted presentation, and for 3D consumption.

For those reasons I think it is not too likely that you would see any kind of "uprising of the proles" from the various, erm, splinter groups of artists. Game art is stranded between 3D stills and Animation, much more so than any other subgroup of 3DCG. However, I am not the Administrator, so I wouldn't be receiving any complaints or suggestions from the others either ;)

Alos, the Finished Game Art forum could be nestled within the Game Art WIP forum, even, so that it would not take up additional room on the front page. Just some place where we can post game art on its own grounds :) Thank you for reading!

EDIT - woops clipped a quote bracket there :P

Dragot
07-13-2005, 11:36 PM
since you wont make a new thread for submiting game art only,

wy is it taking so long to divide things into sub catagories or (Tags) like you mentioned
when you thought of doing it in the past???

maybe explaining the process a little will help alot of people understand and maybe some people will know how to help make things move faster.

baaah888
07-13-2005, 11:41 PM
since you wont make a new thread for submiting game art only,

wy is it taking so long to divide things into sub catagories or (Tags) like you mentioned
when you thought of doing it in the past???

maybe explaining the process a little will help alot of people understand and maybe some people will know how to help make things move faster.

im gonna take a pre-emptive guess, that everyones busy, since nearly everyone on this site is in full time employment as well as doing the admin and moderator work here. So new ideas are put forward and wont be implemented till the next overhaul of system

RO
07-14-2005, 12:03 AM
Just understand, closing threads fast with no warning even if it was said by you that a game art section was not going to happen is rude. You got to admit that. That issue could have been resolved better with clear explination. Ok it was clear and to the point, the issue was the closing of the thread. That was rude. So expecting a bit of rude people after that is to be expected.

Now that you have explained I am fine-ish now. I like the Tag idea that makes good sense. No rush on anything just get it done right :)

WhiteBlaizer
07-14-2005, 12:05 AM
Gameart is the great one forgotten, IMHO. How many great pieces of gameart work have been forgotten?? too many i think. Long time ago, i saw in frontpage a lot of gameart stuff.
Now it seems like frontpage are exclusively renders suitable for Expose or announcements about the forum itself, nothing bad of course. It's very weird to see a gameart piece.

I hope not to be touching fire :D.

When i came here, i always check the wip gameart section, i hate to see the finished gallery of 3d stills, due that people post their works and in a few moments... the good works disappear in page 20 without being noticed (exaggerating a bit :)).

It would be very very nice a Gameart section as the majority of users ask. Gameart is crearly different than other disciplines, and we don't have our section :( that's all.

expecting nothing, i wish Cgtalk to have a GameArt section for our finished works.

Best Regards
-Blaizer

rob-beddall
07-14-2005, 01:07 AM
hey!!

if gameart doesn't deserve a finished gallery then why does it deserve it's own WIP section?
again i go back to my first comment. there are 3 finished gelleries and 4 WIP sections.
and guess which WIP section doesn't have a finished gallery.
it's clear game art is different from the other disciplines.
as for saying you would have to add all the other sections like arcitechure etc.? i don't buy that. sorry. (arcitecture art is a 3d still,building tend not to animate a great deal, game art isn't)
it has been stated many times already why we need our own gallery, so i won't bore anyone by writing them out again.
It's clear that people on the forum WANT a gallery.
is not CGTALK for the people, by the people?
It seems stupid to deny us this when so many people have support for it.
i'll keep posting my support for this.
i've seen a few posts from people who were really behind the idea, that say they would be happy with blah blah blah.
don't give up hope people. we want it, we need it, we'll have it.
keep the support coming.

cheers!!

RO
07-14-2005, 01:21 AM
I hear you Rob.

I will not give up hope ;) Just not going to be radical about it hehe.

Kris-S
07-14-2005, 01:37 AM
Hey guys does it really matter ... I mean come on it's still a finished peace of cg art isn't it? Personally I think it doesnít really matter and people getting all heated up about it is just plain silly. Yeah it would be good to have a forum dedicated to game art but I never ever felt that here at cgtalk that it was considered lesser by all means. And if having another forum dedicated to it means that this service ends up more congested then I wont have it ... Besides with all the next gen titles coming out it's going to get even harder to tell the difference between high res and low res art. To me art is art doesnít matter what it's made for.

My 2c anyways

Dragot
07-14-2005, 02:35 AM
Kris . Ya i know what you mean. thats wy i agreed with the (Tags) idea

When it comes down to it. it really is only better organization that we are asking for.

Confracto
07-14-2005, 05:47 AM
a curious thought occured to me, and I wanted to at least get the idea cleared up before It goes to far.

Leigh said cg choice awards needed 5 mods to vote on it to be nominated?
looking at the bottom of our gameart wip forum, there's only 3 mods.
not only are there only 3, (now I've not read all of this thread, so I may have missed them) but I've noticed that none of them have yet to respond to this, which is leading me to beleive they havn't been checking this often. I'm also doubting that mods from other sections look in the gameart to vote all that often, or how finished 3d mods feel about gameart (but I REALLY don't want to get into that part).

basically, my conclusion is: how do 3 somewhat not here mods cast 5 votes?
(it is also not my intention to in ANY way demean/slander/misrepresent our mods).

so, if anyone could figure this out, it'd be greatly appreciated.

also, I agree with Rob, having 4 wip forums and 3 finished forums doesn't make sense, or add up. It feels like we've been given a half forum while the rest get whole ones....

Kris-S
07-14-2005, 06:09 AM
also, I agree with Rob, having 4 wip forums and 3 finished forums doesn't make sense, or add up. It feels like we've been given a half forum while the rest get whole ones....

but once it's finished it goes in the the finished 3dStills or finished 3danimation wouldn't it

then get mark by the 5 mods in them to become a cg choice award.

rob-beddall
07-14-2005, 06:11 AM
hey!!

yeah, i'm not clear on the cgchoice awards either.
i think leigh meant that it has to be passed by 5 mods to get into the gallery (3d stills)
i got some work in the other day but i didn't get an award.
i guess the awards only go to outstanding work that gets submitted to the forum. (3d stills)
but still not sure on that, hopefully leigh will post again to clear it up.

cheers!!

johnwoo
07-14-2005, 08:22 AM
@ Leigh: 1st off...much appreciated for your replies to this thread as it explained your response in the general discussion more thoroughly and personally I am in favour of anything that will help distinguish finished in-game artwork, be it a tag system, sub forum or >ahem<...a finished game art forum ;) in this neck of the woods :).

Personally I'm not bothered about awards and such cos' I get enough fun and satisfaction from having the ability to create artwork in the 1st place to my own personal style and imagination...so my replies to this and other threads were not aimed at the lack of awards given to finished game art, it was more aimed at the fact that finished artworks from this section gets pretty much lost in a 3d stills finished gallery as there seems to be a lot more aspiring or preofessional CG Artists here @ CGTalk than Games Artists (or is it just me being a no0b!?). But the thought that it's being considered, And you (Leigh) are in favour of some solution to this, other than totally disregarding any solution to do with this subject is (I'll be honest) very good to hear and most pleasing after this debate/discussion.

Kind Regards...

MFTituS
07-14-2005, 09:28 AM
whats going on here?
what will be the next, starting a revolution, hunting and burning down all cg talk administrators?
some members are overreacting. it started from a simple idea and now everybody tries to carry his points cause it wasnt accepted.
leigh has posted the reasons, so why are you so ignorant? like children who doesnīt want to believe it and will bother now the administrators until they get what they want.

for me it was a nice try, but ok - then it should not be and everything will be as it always was. no reason to make such a drama out of it.
if i want to see gameart im browsing through this wip forum cause for me the different steps of the progress are more interesting than the final result.
and after finishing their art people can post a link to the final 3d entrie and we can support them better with our comments.
try to make the best out of it and behave as a community.....if the admins canīt do anything relating to the new gallery then lets start to think about other possiblilities as some have started here already.
sometimes people want to much and dont see it.....that is what happens here, i think.

Prs-Phil
07-14-2005, 10:13 AM
amen to MFTituS

It has been said, chillout, the world is not always fair.

The real reason that you want this finished gameartforum is because you wan't a shiney little "Choice award" like andy and titus have under you're nick so that gameart is "appreceated" and you can be cool. (not all I must say, thank goodness there are still people here that hold on here at cgtalk becaues they really love their work)
Stop getting psyched up about this and don't waist your engery on buhuhuing around why you hardly see gameart on the frontpage get your asses up and produce some gameart that will make it there, you all seem to appreceate it so much SO PUT YOUR GODDAMN HEART INTO and you will have some kickass work that makes it upfront if that is what you are aiming for.

I learned alot here and owe a great part of my artistic development to the cgtalk gameart forum, (thx again guys :) ) and I find it really sad to see that this good old place full of pro's and really aspiring artist who where willing to learn, who where willing to expand and help has become a place where only a few (very respectfull people) hang in, show their stuff and try to help out.

This forum had and I belive it still has a great potential to help and bring forward good gameartists that love the work and not just do it because they think it is the cool thing to do.

Let the work speak for itself ...

Iīll be seeing you around, can't just rant about something and then not participate ;)

baaah888
07-14-2005, 11:55 AM
Wow, sorry next time we want to see improvements we'll just roll over and hope it happens without anyone doing anything. cause that seems to work in the "real world" i mean president bush is refusing to budge on climate change, maybe if people brush their feelings under the rug, and stop asking he'll decide to do somehting that no one appears to want.

Some of the tings your saying seem a bit crazy, We don't want it just for awards.

However the point of awards is to highlight the best pieces, and currently when you drop gameart into a general 3d gallery it is clearly overshadowed by other stuff. For this reason its obvious that the cream of the game art is not garunteed the awards it should deserve.



qoute - "who where willing to expand and help has become a place where only a few (very respectfull people) hang in, show their stuff and try to help out."

Ouch Prs-phil thats a pretty harsh comment, I still find cgtalk and cgchat game art sections full of very helpfull people and its in abundance, if your saying that people who have opinions and sugesstions that could improve the section are brining it down, well this is my opinion but your wrong this boards damn storng and full of enthusiastic people and alot of respectful people.


Look i respect both your opinions, but asking why we're questioning the descision by calling us ignorant is well....ignorant in it self. Alot of the debate was tapering off to talk about alternatives and if this disscussion hadnt been in place we wouldnt have got answers and we wouldn;t be looking for alternatives, theres certainly no harm in having a disscussion about it.

WhiteBlaizer
07-14-2005, 12:29 PM
"gameart into a general 3d gallery it is clearly overshadowed by other stuff"

better expressed than that, impossible. That's the true and hard reality. for that reason i didn't posted any gameart work in that section, i ended posting final works here in the Wip.

I have readed the reasons leigh gived to the community and i feel them like an excuse in certain sense. Administrators have too much work browsing galleries?. I think that in Cgtalk there are too many moderators but almost none of them moderate Cgtalk really, the reality is that gameart section moderator have not say anything about this proposition. Maybe they don't want a section Cos' they catalogue the work as 3D or 2D, think that the third gallery section of animation is new. I undestand in part the posture of the administrators but i don't understand the negative for a popular demand. We make Cgtalk, that's a thing to be considered very well.

Cgtalk should think that a better organization is better for all.

If you don't want your gameart be overshadowed by 3d stills or get hided at page "20", i suggest to put your final gameart in this section. It's very sad to see what happens with a Gameart work because is Gameart. This will change the day all of us will be doing hi-res models for normal maps as ut2k7 or Gear of Wars.

It has no sense to argue or ask anymore about a gallery for Gameart, if they don't want.. there wont be a gallery. I have forgotten the idea of having a gallery for gameart here when i readed the admin replies.

Polycount is a good alternative, it have an excellent section of pimping a previews.

well, let's keep doing gameart as always and forget all this.

cheers

Prs-Phil
07-14-2005, 12:50 PM
well, let's keep doing gameart as always and forget all this.

cheers

THAT'S what counts. It would have been nice but it didn't turn out.

TonyEdwards
07-14-2005, 12:57 PM
I think both Leigh (in this thread) and Leonard (in in this response (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2460963&postcount=24)) have given enough info to end this. They both gave, imho, valid reasons as to why its not an option right now and how there may be a solution in the future.

In the interim maybe stating "Game Art" in your title (as others have mentioned) would make it searchable for those wanting to find finished game art would suffice. You could also list more info about the arts purpose or restrictions as S-S did in his thread (http://cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=257997).

rob-beddall
07-14-2005, 01:58 PM
hey!!

i would love to be able to post on Polycount.
unfortunately you need an ISP email address to register. (which i don't have)
If anyone knows a way round this please let me know.

cheers!!

RO
07-14-2005, 02:07 PM
I guess we should just let it drop I said I still hope... Not that I was going to do radical movements to annoy the mods. I do not care about the award but I have seen plenty of work go by that I consider amazing not get one. Perhaps it was because of lack of environment in the background for a game character but in the end that should not stop a damn good character get an award. Either way I hope it can happen in the future but like I said I am not going to be radical about. And if I was arguing with Leigh was because I still believe he/she was rude when he/she closed the thread. But that is long gone so whatever. Sure I was ticked off. It is natural to be a little ticked off. What can I say I am Human.

Leonard did a good response it was to the point and direct and I did not get ticked off... It is all how it is said that was my big issue.

Edit: Either way this is my last post on this. Unless I see it building up again.

Wayne Adams
07-14-2005, 05:30 PM
Just look at all the fun stuff that transpires in my abscense.

mindrot
07-14-2005, 06:48 PM
I think both Leigh (in this thread) and Leonard (in in this response (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2460963&postcount=24)) have given enough info to end this. They both gave, imho, valid reasons as to why its not an option right now and how there may be a solution in the future...

Yip.. Sounds like some interesting developments in the line, by way of what Leonard mentions.

Thanks for the link TonyEdwards :thumbsup:

rob-beddall
07-15-2005, 02:07 PM
hey!!

well, i've been posting my stuff in the 3d stills and it's getting more attention than i anticipated.
so far i have not been flamed by the hi res people.
I'm still up for a gallery of our own 100%, but i've tried the 3d gallery and it's not too bad.
as long as we can try and get the game people to keep posting there
and remember...put Gameart as the prefix to the title.
cheers!!

RO
07-15-2005, 02:42 PM
Same :)


Keep posting people! If you have works that you all made a while ago please post it. That way we can show that the game art community is bigger. ALso put "GameArt:" in the start your title. Even if we do not get our own section posting in a group i guess you can say will bring more attention to us as a whole.

Supervlieg
07-15-2005, 03:08 PM
Again, vote +1

BTW, andy_H is on the frontpage with game-art. So get working guys. It's up to you ;)

kaisasose
07-15-2005, 06:25 PM
Well I've posted my humble pirate, lets see what happens. :)

HellBoy
07-15-2005, 07:48 PM
Andy posted his 3D game art @ 3D Still Gallery, and he got a front page

this means theres a place for games in 3d gallery, the only problem is, how on earth can I get to his level of modelling :buttrock:

I'm proud of you Andy_H

Also I see where people is comming from, in here, the very WIP/Critique: Game Art Design forum, a finished work is posted, maybe thats where you guys are comming from

Jensen
07-15-2005, 07:51 PM
I have to say I am not 100% satisfied. I think the rudeness can be pointed out directly to you Leigh. Closing that thread was not a great idea in my opinion. Which is what caused confusion and backlash at you. Thing is everyone I have seen post agrees that a 3D game art thread would be a good idea. I am sure the 1 rating posts was just a thing that happened because of that disappointment. Thing is with any management if you see an issue that you know you can not solve you have to spend some time to clear it up so people understand the issues that you guys are in. If you just say quickly that this is not going to happen, people will tend to react this way. Further more you do not need to get angry at people who got angry at you because of your clear lack of attention on the situation.



The idea of coding seems weird to me. I mean is this really that hard? We have proposed a sub forum in the 3D section. Another idea I saw was putting tags in front if you have something like architecture visualization, game art, 3D highpoly art, and etc. The possibilities are endless... This type of thing could be done in the other threads and it would be a seamless upgrade.


Actually, if they took any time in creating the code for the gallery forums (like using classes), then they would have made it very easy to duplicate it as an object. Even if they didn't, i'd take no more than an afternoon to duplicate the code. Also, the way vBulletin is setup, to make another regular section it only takes like 3 clicks of the mouse, and some typing to name the thread. Not hard at all. Well, it could be hard for some people.

rob-beddall
07-15-2005, 11:53 PM
hey!

i like the way you think.
keep it up.

cheers!!

the_podman
07-16-2005, 05:17 AM
Andy H is the shiznot. That's all I gotta say. You can resume your arguing now.

Neox
07-16-2005, 09:46 AM
hey!!

well, i've been posting my stuff in the 3d stills and it's getting more attention than i anticipated.
so far i have not been flamed by the hi res people.

Applause he tested it after attacking everyone on that gallery... Damn guys why do you need a seperate game art gallery? Just to seperate you from the other 3d works? Just to get your front page plugs and kind words by other game artists? Lets build our own ghetto and let no one in...
Sorry but i think this thread didn't even help a little bit on getting your game art gallery.... everyone with 2 eyes in his head and a little bit of knowlegde about 3d art wouldn't underestimate your work on game arts, if it is not good enough to be on front page it is not good enough, it won't be in a game art forum either, and there are a lot of awesome highres pictures which havent been on the frontpage too, because there is too much great art in here to see everything and recogniuze all of it.

stay calm and post your work in here,m you'll get your critique if it is finished post it in the finished section, if it is really good it will get recognized, that is for sure...

Easier??? sorry but good game art is alot harder to achieve, than good film style art
sure it is easier to handle less polygons than handle a lot of polygons, shaders and all that stuff, ok doing the normalmapo is now the same work as doing highresmodelling for films, but all that lighting, shaderworking and all that stuff is a lot of work and way more work then setting up a lowpolymodel with Normalmap...

rob-beddall
07-16-2005, 02:19 PM
hey!!

how did i attack everyone on that forum?

if you think low poly is easier then you aren't doing it right. but that's not what this thread is about.

cheers!!

Confracto
07-16-2005, 04:51 PM
I hate to make this go on, but I'm gonna have to agree with Rob...explain what part of the normal 3d process game artists DON'T have to go through nowadays? dx9 realtime shaders are just as complicated, if not moreso because tools for them are still half dev, and most of it's still code only. normal mapping means making 2 models instead of just one, and realtime lighting isn't far behind pre-rendered by much anymore.

anyway, Thx Neox, I really appreciate one of the 3d forum mods coming in here and giving their 2 cents...and knowing they're thinking the right thing...sometimes people do get carried away.

WhiteBlaizer
07-16-2005, 05:25 PM
sure it is easier to handle less polygons than handle a lot of polygons, shaders and all that stuff, ok doing the normalmapo is now the same work as doing highresmodelling for films, but all that lighting, shaderworking and all that stuff is a lot of work and way more work then setting up a lowpolymodel with Normalmap...

This depends a lot of your workflow. For me is more easy to make a hi-res mesh, I start from a very low cage mesh (less polygons than a normal low poly model of 3500tris) that i refine when is subidived 1 time. Hi-res model have easier textures to make in my opinion (all flats and merely simple colors), the shaders are easy as well. The main diference for me is that to make a 3d still you need a workstation, thing that have changed now with the normal maps as you wrote. Lighing is all GI now and... as easy as that impossible, with render engines such as Vray or Brazil if the app is Max, and now Mental ray with the easier shaders i have ever seen for skin.

In contrast to all this, low poly meshes are easier to build yes, less amount of polygons, but in texture aspects is the hardest work due to seams, texture quality, shading, shaders, texture effects, etc. Proof of this, is that i don't want to make low polymodels anymore, the work is painful and very bad recognized.

It would be nice to have a gallery section for Gameart as i said in previous replies. Keep putting gameart works in the 3dstills gallery with "Gameart" in your title. If Cgtalk creates a gallery for Gameart, they should create one more for Architecture, Characters, Cars, etc. This question i a bit complicated now. Just read all what admins said, the have their part of reason and people must take their particular points.

The sections are well now. In a future they may categorize all the works, that's all.

regards

MFTituS
07-16-2005, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by ROB_BEDDALL

hey!!

well, i've been posting my stuff in the 3d stills and it's getting more attention than i anticipated.
so far i have not been flamed by the hi res people.
I'm still up for a gallery of our own 100%, but i've tried the 3d gallery and it's not too bad.
as long as we can try and get the game people to keep posting there
and remember...put Gameart as the prefix to the title.
cheers!!


lol, why should people flame you? have you ever posted your gameart there and got such reactions or existed the barrier between 3d and gameart only in your head?

hm, do you really think, it is the right way that everybody should post all his gameart no matters if it is new or old, like you, even by saying that you know it isnt your best work directly at the beginning?

if you wanne get more attention than post your best gameart and not all your things ever made on your hd. reacting like this will not bring more people into gameart, it will be the opposide way around - they will become bored and annoyed by all the stuff.
to become attention you have to impress people, not the quantity makes it but quality!

again i just can say, calm down. by overreacting you will really pay attention on the gameart community - but in a negative way.
and by statements like "highres isnt as hard to make like ingame work" you will not win much friends. do you really think game artists are something special or they have to have better skills then the other guys?
and if you know it so good, where is your great 3d- and gameart to give such a statement?


Originally Posted by ROB_BEDDALL

if you think low poly is easier then you aren't doing it right.


lol, thats really the worst thing you could say.
first learn how to make good gameart and highres 3d art before posting such s..t.
yes, i know i should not have said this! :(
...., but mostly the unknowing people crying the loudest.

sad how a nice meant thread changed to one full of attacks, ignorance and arrogance - i dont rule me out of this

Neox
07-16-2005, 08:18 PM
how did i attack everyone on that forum?

you assumed that you would get flamed because of posting gameart...
you make a difference about your so called "hi res people" and us "low res people", we are all artists and in the end you are also just showing stills of your holy moly game art

if you want game art on the front page and gameart getting more attention, then stop posting the weakest of your portfolio pieces

@Titus: i totally agree with you...

lets compare a bit

good film art
http://www.elfica.com/imagenes/wallpapers/wallpaper_gollum_1024x768_.jpg

good game art
http://www.spieleflut.de/img/ut20062007-screens/0.jpg

yep i'd still say, that game art is a lot easier than film art

or maybe this
http://www.kingkongmovie.com/downloads/wallpaper/1024x768_3.html

with that
http://media.pc.ign.com/media/008/008926/img_2786692.html ?

yes i do believe, that doing gameart is a lot easier than doing film art done by those "high res people"
it will change, we see that change now but right now it is still easier...

anyway, Thx Neox, I really appreciate one of the 3d forum mods coming in here and giving their 2 cents...and knowing they're thinking the right thing...sometimes people do get carried away.
huh? o.O

and now stop crying and show us what you can do with lesser polygons and limited texturespace :buttrock:

RO
07-16-2005, 08:51 PM
This is enough guys! So what if I did not get a front page or others who put up work. The work I presented were some that I am very proud of and have been recognized already by people in the industry such as Cliffyb so a front page will do very little for me anyhow. Infact I think my work is good and to the level of pros in game industry but I can still improve a lot. Front page is just a cherry ontop of my work if I ever get it, and honestly I do not care much for it. If I never get it... so what... I have already been recognized for my works many times. I have done high poly stuff also, I can say that high poly is harder for me. I am not going to say game art is easy at all. Both have different challenges. At the end both sides will merge.

Others that keep at this fight should just STOP! You all are doing nothing positive for both sides.

Honestly this pissing contest has to stop now.

Edit: Let me add that being recognized is not what keeps me making stuff. I just love game art and any kind of art. That is what keeps me going.

BoBo-the-seal
07-17-2005, 07:05 AM
Sorry guys, I no longer have access to the moderation tools of these boards so itís a little odd that Iím still listed at the bottom of the Game Art section. I was focused on my transition to Iron Lore Entertainment (I moved from Texas to Massachusetts) and was unable to devote the time I would have liked to these boards.

For a while there, I was making it a point to plug game art as often as possible. It didnít matter if it was posted in the 3d finished gallery or the WIP gallery. As long as it was noteworthy (and when I say noteworthy, I mean comparable to all posted CG art in the finished gallery) then I would plug it. I personally donít see the need to separate the finished gallery. Your goal should simply be to make good art. If itís good it will get noticed regardless of where it is.

I think a dedicated finished section was worth asking for. Unfortunately it just isnít possible at this time. Itís great that yíall are passionate about your work but please keep in mind that some thing just might not go the way you would like. There is no need to make threats or to personally attack people. Assaulting other sections isnít the answer either. Simply accept the answer of the admin and put your focus towards making your work stand out on the merit of its quality. Again if your work is good it will get noticed.

Now that Iím firm within my role here at the studio I have more time to contribute. Iíll see what I can do to get my access back.

- BoBo

Wayne Adams
07-17-2005, 08:58 AM
hear hear desp. It's a sad thing for anyone to develop game art for the sheer want of getting recognition. I'm standing by you on that topic.

rob-beddall
07-17-2005, 02:13 PM
hey!!

okay, having time to reflect i now realise that my comment....


if you think low poly is easier then you aren't doing it right.

was not very well thought out and probably not a good thing to say. so i appolgise for that.
I was just having a rant and perhaps got a little carried away.


lol, why should people flame you? have you ever posted your gameart there and got such reactions or existed the barrier between 3d and gameart only in your head?


I've never previously posted in any of the galleries but some people were under the impression that it WOULD get flamed. I can't remember what exactly was said but it was something about a post being reduced from 4 stars to 2 stars. also people were under the impression that the game work would get skimmed over and not taken seriously. I was merely pointing out ot them that since i had posted i hadn't recieved any of this kind of treatment.

hm, do you really think, it is the right way that everybody should post all his gameart no matters if it is new or old, like you, even by saying that you know it isnt your best work directly at the beginning?

I only posted 3 pieces of work which is by no means "all my stuff". It is work that is currently in my portfolio and that's why i posted it. i wanted to know if people thought it was a strong enough piece of work to be in a portfolio. I wasn't trying to flood the gallery with pieces of work that are crap.

i also never wanted to submit art purely for an award. i was merely saying that i wasn't clear on how awards are awarded.I'm sure if my work was good enough it would get an award whether it is game art or not.

Yes, i do think there is a difference between hi-res people and low-res. For example i don't do ANY high res pics. and i'm sure there are people who don't do ANY low poly work.
I didn't mean to offend anyone by categorizing them in such a way. so sorry if anyone wa offended by it.

I would also like to call for this thread to be closed soon as it's getting off point somewhat.
i think the mods have said all they are going to say on the matter, and i am for most part happy with what they have said.
so for the time being i will continue to post my work in the 3d stills gallery.

thankyou

cheers!!

Mouse
08-20-2005, 01:00 PM
Apologies for (i) bumping and (ii) possibly saying something that's already been said.

[boring background bit - feel free to skip]
I first came into 3D graphics through the HL mod scene (making models for the mod Natural Selection) before branching out into "real" 3D work when I became a student and was able to afford 3ds max after a couple of years playing with Milkshape. I had thought that game art was somehow frowned upon since I saw how little was posted in the main galleries here (and I'm not sure I've ever seen anything in the CG Choice galleries), but recently I'd been fancying going back to game art now I've learned a whole lot more about 3D and found to my delight a lot of very nice models in this forum (which is far more interesting than the 3D Stills WIP forum, which appears to be 50% nude females) that I am sure I wouldn't see in the main galleries. This forum could really do with a higher profile.
[/boring background bit that went on longer than I'd intended]

If we can't have a forum for finished game art (and frankly I agree that the finished 3D art forum should be good enough, even though a lot of low-poly art gets overlooked there), why not try to get this WIP forum split into a main forum and a subforum - the subforum being used for either finished work or for WIPs, whichever would be more suited to living in a subforum?

If that seems too difficult, why not just have game artists create a new thread in this forum when their models are complete, with some kind of prefix to indicate it's the full model ready for critique (such as, I dunno, "[final] winged serpent"), in addition to the original WIP.

lildragon
08-20-2005, 02:49 PM
I'll see if I can shake something from the tree.

It would help bring more game art to the forums.

-lild

mindrot
08-21-2005, 07:16 PM
I'll see if I can shake something from the tree.

It would help bring more game art to the forums.

-lild

That would great lildragon. Thank you for the consideration. :thumbsup:

CGTalk Moderation
08-21-2005, 07:16 PM
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