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niklmauz
10-25-2002, 02:35 AM
Heyas,
Here's my latest model I've been working on. It's the first female character I've created and I'm pretty happy with the way it's turned out. She clocks in at approx 3400 tris (pretty extravagant I know, I might try and lose some) and uses 4 256x256 texture maps and a 256x256 bump map. I intended to use more bump mapping on the boots but because of the small map size it looks really pixelly at the moment. I was going for a fairly simple and elegant look for the upper torso and leg parts of the outfit (I'm not just lazy, honest:p ). Anyway, I'd be grateful if people would let me know what they think. I'm going to try and work on a non-biped character once I've finished this one. I'm still really new to modelling and I'm trying to model something different each time.

Ta, Nick.

ps, sorry about the noise on the image, I couldn't optimize it any more and keep it below 50k. :annoyed:

niklmauz
10-25-2002, 02:41 AM
Here's a sharper version of the posed model.

Ta, Nick.

gaggle
10-25-2002, 03:43 AM
Hey that looks pretty good niklmauz. Colorscheme and texturedetail wise and such she's a bit plain perhaps.. er, I mean elegant and simple of course.. :)

I'll direct my main crit on the modeling though, I think that's what could do with the most improvement. She's clearly human and such, so it's by far not all bad :), but her neck and shoulders looks pretty odd I think. It's like her neck has been moved up too much..or..something..head too small perhaps?.. maybe measured against a real person would reveal something more solid.

And there's the shoulders, which are less of a problem for me than the neck, but nontheless they look pretty seperate from the torso. Seperate shoulders is a way of making lowpoly characters that I think is perfectly valid, but at your polycount it strikes me as.. odd. Something more fluid and nicely deforming when animated could be made. The future's in single-mesh lowpoly characters :)

Actually, on the poly-budget thing, she doesn't look like 3400 tris to me.. it's not in itself "too much" per sť for the most modern of games, but I would expect more detail from that amount though. Same goes for texture-space, you're burning a lot of memory on what seems to be mostly blue :)

I think using more than optimal polys and texturememory is part of learning how to do this stuff though, so there's absolutely nothing horrid about it at all. Just thoughts for your next project I guess..

You could consider making a character with, say, a 900 tris limit and a maximum of a single 512x512 texture, and see what kind of trouble you then face. And remember that a lot of the detail and niceness you loose when making things lowpoly you can regain in spades in animation. Lowpoly thrives on animation, so you just make sure you get to messing with that as well at some point :)

spakman
10-25-2002, 05:06 AM
Try isolating your character's silhouette. See how that reads. Right now I bet it would come off as exaggerated masculine.

peace

sadist
10-25-2002, 11:00 AM
Hey dude, definately looking decent so far. Post a wireframe so we can see more clearly how your distributing those polies.

As spakman stated, right now she's looking rather masculine. Exagerate the more feminine aspects, eg. narrow the shoulders a bit, pull the waist in and pad the hips out to give more of an hourglass figure. Can't see the arse yet so no comment. Time to go browsing for some 'reference'... if you get my drift :D For more exagerated and stylized form, check out the danger girl comic series.

Also her thighs seem quite a bit too short, bring the knee down at least one knee height.

niklmauz
10-25-2002, 06:54 PM
Thanks everybody for your comments, you came up with some very valid and useful points. I'm definitely in agreement with the point about the shoulders. I wanted them to a be bit on the large size because the sleeves and shoulder parts of the outfit are supposed to be baggy. But I'm definitely going to take them in a bit. Oh, and you're right about the knees, sadist (why can I never see these things myself, dammit!?!) so hopefully I've sorted that too. As for the arse, I assure you it's a peach :) . I didn't want to go uber-feminine with this model, but she's not that butch, is she? Maybe it says something about my taste in women or something. :hmm: Anyway, I know my anatomy skills need work so I'm going to go back to the drawing board and do a lot of sketching before I start my next model.

Oh yeah, sorry if this is a newbie thing to ask, but how do I take a screen capture in max? I'll post a wireframe when my ego has recovered from this slaying;)

niklmauz
10-26-2002, 03:20 PM
I reworked my model based on the crits and I have to say I agree now with the comments about how she looked too masculine. It's weird, but I couldn't see it till I reworked the model and stood a before and after render side by side. Anyway, I pulled in the shoulders and the waist and moved the knees down. Hopefully she looks more feminine now. Would people agree?

tobyWong
10-27-2002, 12:35 PM
Hey
My .02-Where her waist starts and where her crotch ends looks a little ...streched. I'd pull the shoulders in a bit more myself, but it looks looks ok. Still think her neck looks a bit long.

Oh and you should just use one 512 instead of 4 256. It works out the same in the end :)

Peace
-Toby

niklmauz
10-27-2002, 11:34 PM
Thanks for your comments tobywong. The material on the inner thighs is supposed to be kind of baggy which is why the crotch looks stretched. Maybe I should accentuate the creases on that part of the texture map more. I used 4 256 textures because I used chilli skinner for some parts and the UVW editor for others and I don't know how to combine them (is it possible?). Also, I wanted to isolate the parts that have bump mapping to just one small texture map.

tobyWong
10-28-2002, 03:38 AM
ok... hmmm... to combine them;

Ok heres how I would do it- pick your shader for each map assigned, then select by assigned, and detach polygons. Do this for 3 of the maps, then select one piece of the character, go into the uv editor select uv's and move them to the left until the map lines up again. Pick a different piece and repeat except this time move to the left and down and then the last piece move down. Then select everything, combine polygons, and merge verts. Photoshop the 256's together into one 512 so it matches the order of your uv map. Apply to the mesh. Select all uv's and scale until they match up to the mew map. Tweak if needed.

That should about do it ;)

Peace
-Toby

sadist
10-28-2002, 07:39 AM
Screen capture>> errr, I just use psp for basic cropping and what not, so for a viewport capture I just hit print screen button, cross to psp, ctrl-v, crop where necessary.

Combine uvw's>> You don't have to detach the seperate ids, just select by material id for each seperate map, unwrapuvw, scale to about 50% and offset it so it won't overlap with the next material id. Repeat until you've offset all 4 maps. Now that you have all ids ready for 1 512 map, you should find that you can arrange clusters more efficiently and generally scale things up a bit, more than 4 256s.
Don't bother trying to scale and line verts up to a pre existing unwrap unless your using that texture for something else. It's much easier and more precise to take a new unwrap. You can take a screenshot of the unwrapuvw window and crop/scale the image to 512, or alternatively download texporter for your version of max. Very very useful plugin.
http://www.cuneytozdas.com/software/max/texporter/

I skimmed over this thread a bit so I may have missed something. Do you use reference? Sometimes when you're unsure of proportions it's best to have an anatomy sketch to trace in the viewport. It doesn't mean you have to follow it exactly, it's just helpful to keep an eye on it until your eyes can distinguish problem areas themselves :D

cya

niklmauz
10-28-2002, 03:11 PM
Thanks for the uvw tips. Something to bear in mind for my next model. Do any of you guys use both chilli skinner and unwrap uvw when modelling? I find it a lot speedier to use chilli skinner than the UVW editor for some sections of a model, but then the editor seems to be a lot better for limbs, heads etc. What do you reckon? I do use Texporter, thx anyway Sadist.

As for reference, I downloaded some Loomis sketches from fineart.sk which I tried to stick to (although admittedly not closely enough). Next time I'll probably set something up as a viewport background to help.

Anyway, I was still finding my feet a lot with this model. Next time I'm determined to be more thorough in terms of proportion etc. and also to spend more time on textures. Wish me luck!:)

Jonny Bubonic
10-28-2002, 05:26 PM
Hi Niklmauz....just adding my tuppence worth. I'm not too keen on the bulging arms. I'm not sure if you're trying to make the sleeves look like loose material, or if its exaggerated muscles. If its the former, I think you need to make some alterations to the model and the texture, to show that it's meant to be loose cloth.
Try making it puff out nearer the place where its pulled in at the elbow and wrist, rather than halfway down(see my crappy illustration, below :D )

niklmauz
10-28-2002, 06:30 PM
Jonny Bubonic, thanks for the input. I was going for baggy rather than bulging, but I have to say I was a little half arsed in doing the creases. I'll have a play around with them and try and make them look a bit better.

Ta, Nick.

shivacola
10-29-2002, 06:56 AM
out of human proportions

sadist
10-31-2002, 11:50 PM
chilli skinner>> Nope, I prefer to unwrap it all manually by hand on a mesh level and take a planar projection. I find the max viewport and modelling tools will always be better than the unwrap ones, and by using only 1 projection you can keep the cluster proportions the same (great for keeping sub-pixel seems sharp)... until you feel certain areas need a bit more texture detail.
Once I'm done flattening the mesh I morph it back to a copy of the original.


edit: Oops, didn't really answer that question. While I haven't used it myself much, the 3d artist sitting next to me and myself had a play with it one afternoon to see what the fuss was about. The flattening features were kinda nice, but unless the mesh was very complex it's quicker and easier doing it manually. Most of the other crap might just save you a mouse click or something, but it's all in max anyway.

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